The Trial of the Driverless Car

In blue cities throughout the country, unions and politicians are fighting to ban driverless cars. We travel to Boston, where the fight has reached a fever pitch, and where the cars themselves will create some very unusual political alliances. (This is part two of a two part series, listen to the beginning here https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/search-engine/id1614253637?i=1000757102876.) ⁠⁠Support Search Engine! https://searchengine.supercast.com/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:27PJ Vogt?

  Our first story was about a driver, a robot driver who evolved over many years at the nudging and training and machinations of a team of tech people in California. The second story I want to tell you also starts with a driver, a driver who is also going to evolve and change due to the machinations of some different West Coast tech companies. The difference is that this driver is a human being. Chapter one, Abdallah Aziz. I met Abdallah Aziz in Boston, where he's been a driver for many decades. He was doing it all the way back in the 90s. Back then, he considered taxi driver to be a decent job, a career.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  Professionally, I've been driving for 30 years now.

• 1:10PJ Vogt?

  30 years?

• 1:11Speaker 01

  Yes. I had a limo service for 10 years. And then I was doing five years for a cab, a taxi.

• 1:20PJ Vogt?

  And then, one day in 2011, Abdallah Aziz was hanging out at the airport with the other drivers when these men from the future showed up with a plan to change his life.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  When Uber came, I remember by 2011, they came to the airport. We were in the waiting area at the Logan. We have a designated parking lot where we wait the fares. So they come there and they say, "Hey, you know, we are introducing you in a company that will do same as a taxi, but it's an app. We want you guys to join with us. And you can have your own car. We will give you a phone with the app. And we're going to sign you up, and you can make money."

• 2:10PJ Vogt?

  What did you think?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  At the time, I say, "It is good, but you didn't come here to help us. You come here to kill this business." Okay?

• 2:24PJ Vogt?

  You knew.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  I knew.

• 2:28PJ Vogt?

  Abdiasiz had not been born yesterday. Here's what he understood immediately. The taxi business he operated in, up until now, had worked as a kind of monopoly. In Boston, like many American cities, you legally were not allowed to drive a cab without a taxi license, a medallion. New medallions were almost never issued. So assuming you could afford to buy or rent a medallion, the city itself would make your job stable by protecting you from competition. But Uber was about to kill that system. Uber drivers just drove without medallions. The company argued that since they were picking up passengers via this new-fangled phone app, they didn't need them. Abdiasiz knew that this was going to kill the industry, at least as it currently existed.

• 3:13PJ Vogt?

  Taxi driver would still be a job, but medallion-owning taxi driver would not be. A wave was coming. He knew what he had to do. And so he told his fellow taxi drivers his strategy for dealing with Uber, the company that had come to kill their industry.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  I told them, "Listen, I'm going to join them." I said, "I see where they're going. I read a lot of articles about them. They start from San Francisco, they went to Chicago." I say, "They are expanding, so we can't stop this beat. We cannot stop Uber."

• 3:48PJ Vogt?

  So Abdiasiz found himself working for Uber. He says someone at the company handed him his new marching orders.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  "We're going to give you a laptop. We're going to give you 200 phones each week. So we want you to give these phones to the drivers that you hire, but we want you to set it up. They need to bring their driver license, they need to bring their social security, and you sign them up. Everyone that you sign, you give them the phone, you activate the phone, they're good to go."

• 4:17PJ Vogt?

  So they were giving you 200 iPhones a week to give out?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  To give out, yeah, to the drivers.

• 4:23PJ Vogt?

  So it's crazy. It's like they're kind of, they're coming to kill your business.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. I knew, I knew, I knew.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  That's why I said, "If you cannot beat them, join them." So I'm going to join them.

• 4:38PJ Vogt?

  Abdi Aziz, a man who could glimpse the future clearly enough to adapt to it. He'd work recruiting for Uber for a while. Then he'd be one of the first 100 Uber drivers in Boston. Signed up for Uber Black, the premium service. Got himself a very expensive car. At first, it was an even better job than the one they destroyed. Uber, in those early days, was pretty generous. But after a few years, Abdi Aziz says that started to change. In 2022, Uber began rolling out a big change to its platform. Instead of taking a set percentage of each fare, Uber started using an algorithm to offer its drivers variable rates based on what its system thought each driver would accept for a given ride. The drivers believed that Uber, once it stopped showing them its take, raised that

• 5:22PJ Vogt?

  take by a lot. Uber, who we contacted for this story, maintains that their take rate is still, quote, "around 20%," and that what's gone up actually are government taxes and fees. But Abdi Aziz does not believe them, and most drivers I've talked to share his view. Abdi Aziz's perspective is that once Uber and Lyft had leverage, they started using it against the drivers. The market was wide open. New drivers signed up every day. If you didn't like it, you could leave. To Abdi Aziz and his fellow drivers, this all felt like a bait and switch. They could quit, but many of them had car loans. What they actually wanted was for the companies to raise their pay closer to what it had been before. They wanted better pay.

• 6:05PJ Vogt?

  They wanted some other concessions. Some of the drivers started thinking about whether there might be some way to exercise power over the apps. They started talking about a union. And so Abdi Aziz found himself, once again, a recruiter for a disruptive new organization.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  So when we started, we were like 400 drivers. And we joined the union.

• 6:28PJ Vogt?

  So you were early on Uber, or you were early in the union?

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly, exactly. Because I've been in the industry for quite a while, 30 years. I know what is going on. It's my profession. So, and the union, they say, okay, call all the drivers, let us unite, and then we're going to go to the state.

• 6:52PJ Vogt?

  And did it feel a little bit like when Uber was having you sign people up and then Union to have you sign people, does it feel, does it feel similar like going around like explaining something to people, telling them what the benefits?

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely, exactly. Because you see, a lot, a lot of drivers, they don't know nothing about union.

• 7:08PJ Vogt?

  Things were looking promising. They got a big ballot initiative in front of Massachusetts voters that gave them the right to even try to unionize. They were collecting signatures. But then, during this still fledgling moment in their union drive, a different tech company appeared on the horizon. Do you remember the first time you heard about Waymo?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Uh, the Waymo, the first time I heard was, um, uh, back in 2022.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  I heard in San Francisco that they are, they are doing testing.

• 7:41PJ Vogt?

  What did you think?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  I say, okay, I mean, I'm not against technology, you know, I welcome any technology, same as Uber when they come to business. But I knew where, where they're heading to. You see, when Uber came, their aim was to kill taxi business. Now Waymo is to kill the drivers.

• 8:03PJ Vogt?

  How you understand a story, what you feel as you hear it, it's so much about where the teller chooses to start it. The driverless car in the story I'd heard had begun as a contest among academics who were not primarily driven by profit. Some of them had genuinely wanted to solve the problem of car accidents. Others thought that making a robot drive across a desert was just a very cool puzzle to put their minds to. Those experiments had been sharpened into a technological product inside the cushy bubble of an enormously wealthy tech company. Who now had sent mapping cars to Abdi's city, the first step to deployment there.

• 8:42PJ Vogt?

  When Uber had come to town, Abdi's had thought, if you can't beat him, join him. Now Waymo is here, and he saw no way to join them. So he had to find a way to beat them. Fortunately for Abdi Aziz, he's in Boston.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  For the record, my name is Sharon Durkin, District 8 City Councilor, and I'm the Chair of the Boston City Council Committee on Planning Development and Transportation.

• 9:02PJ Vogt?

  Chapter 2, Union Town.

• 9:06PJ Vogt?

  Boston City Councilors began meeting last summer to discuss preemptively banning Waymo from their city. The first meeting took place in July, inside Boston City Hall, a room resplendent in many hues of municipal brown. The stated agenda for the hearing, Docket 1141, sounded neutral to the point of boring. Order for a hearing to evaluate autonomous vehicle operations in the city of Boston.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  Today, the goals for today's hearing is to gather information, hear from stakeholders, and better understand the regulatory landscape. We must explore-

• 9:35PJ Vogt?

  Despite this very dry description, what was actually going to happen would be significantly more raucous. These hearings started out with the flavor and intensity of a political rally. People wanted to find a way to stop these cars, and this would be the room where they laid out the case as to why. It'd be the beginning of the fight.

• 9:57PJ Vogt?

  Some version of this fight has been happening with increasing frequency in American cities. Not all cities, blue cities. There's this pattern, actually, observed by reporter Timothy B. Lee, which is that cities in red and purple states like Austin and Phoenix mostly welcome Waymo, whereas places like DC and New York fight it. In cities that fight Waymo, the conversation is less about safety and much more about whether robo taxis will take away jobs. My hope was if I paid attention to Boston, maybe what was beginning here as just a fight would evolve into politicians starting to think through some kind of compromise. I think these kinds of compromises, finding solutions for workers who AI could displace,

• 10:40PJ Vogt?

  they are probably one of the most important challenges for our politicians today. And so Boston, for me, was a test case. Are we capable? Were our politics ready? So here's how things began. Bostonians were here today to talk about something contentious: jobs. But they started with the one thing everybody could probably agree on. Boston's streets, the battleground here, were barely fit for human driving, let alone Waymo.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Boston is one of the oldest major cities in the country with narrow, one-way streets, alleys, and the lack of a traditional grid system.

• 11:15Speaker 04

  It's really, really difficult to drive.

• 11:17Speaker 05

  You look at the map, it looks like a child's drawing, you know?

• 11:21Speaker 03

  We also have issues with double-park cars, rideshares, delivery vehicles.

• 11:25PJ Vogt?

  After lambasting Boston's streets a while longer, the people here get to the issue that'll actually dominate these hearings: jobs. In particular, union jobs.

• 11:34Speaker 03

  We need to address potential layoffs for our union drivers with the introduction of self-driving cars.

• 11:40Speaker 05

  I think it's important that, you know, we listen when we hear Teamsters and the Carmen Union, SEIU, and countless residents who feel lindsided by this.

• 11:50PJ Vogt?

  The App Drivers Union, Abdi Aziz's union, were the stars of the hearing today.

• 11:54Speaker 06

  I'm a proud member of ADU, App Drivers Union, and I'm here to ask you to protect our local jobs.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  Rideshare drivers just won the right to unionize and to fight for better wages and conditions. Robot cars threaten all of this progress.

• 12:09PJ Vogt?

  Abdi Aziz would show up, too, at a later hearing.

• 12:11Speaker 01

  I understand it is a business. It is capitalism, but not in my city at the expense of our jobs. Thank you.

• 12:24PJ Vogt?

  The App Drivers were not officially a union yet. Technically, they were still in the process of forming. But the threat from Waymo seemed so dire that this larger coalition had been created that included a bunch of historic unions. It was called Labor United Against Waymo. Every drivers' union in Boston uniting to try to kill Waymo here. At the tip of the spear, the Teamsters. Nationally, Teamsters are the largest union of drivers in America, 1.4 million members. Boston is one of their biggest strongholds. This is the union that started out as workers driving teams of horses, but evolved to represent workers who drive cars and trucks, and these days represents lots and lots of blue-collar union jobs.

• 13:05PJ Vogt?

  Boston's a union town. Everybody said this to me over and over. In the same quick, matter-of-fact way that people where I'm from say New York's expensive. The way you toss off a truth so obvious it's barely worth repeating, but which you have to repeat all the time because it informs everything always. The Teamsters and the politicians just kept repeating it. Boston's a union town.

• 13:29Speaker 07

  Boston is a, is a union town. And you, you hear the, our city, we're a proud union city. We're proud of our workers.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  Boston is a union town. We're not any of those other cities.

• 13:40Speaker 06

  We're a union city here in the city of Boston. We want to protect.

• 13:44PJ Vogt?

  And watching the hearings, I could see part of what was so beautiful about Boston being a union town. As driver after driver testified about their jobs, there's just something moving, to me anyway, about watching people talk about the dignity and importance of human work.

• 13:59Speaker 06

  A few days ago, while on my route, I spotted a man collapse on the ground. He was unconscious and unresponsive. And it became clear that he had overdosed. I stayed with him, flagged down a homeowner who called 911. When the first responder arrived, they administered an ICAN. Had I not seen him and acted quickly, he may have died. To me, a person. To Waymo, an obstacle to avoid.

• 14:20PJ Vogt?

  You had union members who drove UPS trucks, ambulances. And while these Teamsters were not immediately under threat from Waymo's robotaxi service, they knew that driverless technology was not going to stop there. We see the writing on the wall. We know that driverless car and truck companies are salivating at the idea that they could eliminate Teamster jobs. Nationally, the Teamsters actually sat out the last presidential race. But in Boston, the Teamsters are still welded to the Democrats. And the Democrats are welded to them.

• 14:51Speaker 06

  Just a few months ago, I was knocking doors with drivers across the city to give them the right to, to organize.

• 14:58Speaker 07

  You guys just were able to unionize. And this would just be a huge blow to you all.

• 15:03PJ Vogt?

  As the city councillors began to ask union leaders questions, you got the sense that councillors already knew some of these answers. That maybe they were asking more just to get the answers on the public record. And I'm just curious, can you talk to us a little bit about?

• 15:17Speaker 02

  The number of conversations that you've had with Waymo. How many times did you meet with them?

• 15:21PJ Vogt?

  This is City Councilor Julia Mejia. Asking one of the Teamsters leaders, how many times did Waymo reach out to you before they sent mapping cars to Boston?

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Thank you for the question, Councilor Mejia. It rhymes with hero. Zero. Zero. So this is, this is why I asked the question. Because oftentimes, things are being done to us without us, right? And so I'm curious what words of advice.

• 15:46PJ Vogt?

  Chapter three.

• 15:48PJ Vogt?

  The councillor had arrived an hour late to the hearing. A former MTV reporter, she's noticeably hipper than the median municipal politician, standing out in the beige sea of the city council room. She'd come to listen to the heroes, the drivers. But more than that, she'd come to make a meal out of the people she saw as the villains, Waymo's executives.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  If, if we're competing with machines, it will ultimately have an impact on our drivers.

• 16:15PJ Vogt?

  At this point, given the sense, the sale, the scale of our fleet compared to Uber and Lyft's, I, I can't speak to what the, the, the decrease in their revenue has been. I don't know those numbers. I can tell you that. The person on the receiving end of these questions is Matt Walsh, Waymo's regional head of state and local public policy. Walsh looks the part of the tech exec. A spiffy suit, a swoopy coiff of silver hair. For most of their conversation, they're talking past each other. Because Matt Walsh wants to discuss safety. And councillor Mejia wants to discuss drivers' jobs.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  What we are doing is creating an opportunity for people to choose to not support humans and the workforce. That is the choice that we're giving people.

• 17:00PJ Vogt?

  I would disagree, councillor. I would say the choice we're giving people is they can make a decision if they want to be in a safer vehicle that they feel safer in, and that meets the needs.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  And so are we saying that our Uber and Lyft drivers and our app drivers are not safe?

• 17:12PJ Vogt?

  I am not making comments specifically about the safety of Uber and Lyft. What I can say is that over, after 71 million miles of fully autonomous operations on US roads, we know that we are five times

• 17:23Speaker 05

  Less in injury causing crashes than human drivers. I am not suggesting that Uber and Lyft drivers are dangerous. I am suggesting that human drivers compared to the Waymo driver are involved in far more collisions.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  But Waymo is not a driver. Waymo is a robot. So let's, let's, let's, let's.

• 17:38Speaker 05

  Without it, you're totally correct.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Let's be really clear about what it is. It's an apparatus.

• 17:44Speaker 05

  We refer, when we say Waymo driver, I know the chair brought this up earlier. We, that is what we call the Waymo, that is what we call the technology. And I understand it has sensitivities and we will.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  It's very triggering.

• 17:54Speaker 05

  Understood and heard loud and clear.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  I just want to make sure that we, we're, we're not driver, that's not happening. So right now, um, in supermarkets, they do these self checkups.

• 18:05Speaker 04

  So Boston is like a little character, you know? I think that it could have been, you know, CEOs versus bees. Boston would just be like, we're on the B side, you know, like, we're gonna go hard for honey. You know, like, we're crazy like that.

• 18:25PJ Vogt?

  I got to talk to Councilor Mejia, the politician who'd been so offended by Waymo's use of the D word. We met in person in her office in Dorchester. The counselor was giving me and producer Emily Multer a quick lesson on Boston, this foreign country where I'd happily landed.

• 18:40Speaker 04

  We are just not the type of city that just goes along to get along with certain things that we feel, especially like Boston is a union town. We're hardcore. We don't, we're adverse to outsiders. It's a city, but it's like a little old town, you know? It's like very towny here.

• 18:58PJ Vogt?

  Well, this gets to what I want to ask you about, which is Waymo. Like when, do you recall the first time Waymo, even as a concept, showed up on your radar?

• 19:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, right before the, the hearing.

• 19:09PJ Vogt?

  Oh, right before.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Like, I didn't know, like, first of all, I'm not one of those people. I don't pay attention to everything. I'm not gonna, you know, like, I have my own little bubble here, you know? I'm dealing with education issues, potholes, like murder, you know, like real life issues that impact the quality of life of my constituents. And so it wasn't until recently, when there was some rumblings of Waymo wanting to set up shop here in Boston, that I had learned that they were in other cities. I was like, damn, there are people who like this. Like, I got in a Waymo car, like, all excited. About him like, wow, people like this. So I was.

• 19:47PJ Vogt?

  You start searching about because you're curious. And then the algorithm starts being like just videos of like happy people in driverless cars.

• 19:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm like, oh, wow. Like, who are these people really excited? Getting driven around by a robot or just not even a robot. There are some of these don't even have a little head. They're just like. Yeah, it's just a steering wheel. Yeah, that's even creepier. So that was like, ew. Yeah, no.

• 20:08PJ Vogt?

  I've talked to a few people who feel this way when they see videos of Waymos. Part of this is a quirk of design. There are other models of driverless cars that were fully designed to be driverless, like Amazon Zooks. Those cars don't have a steering wheel. But Waymo retrofits pre-existing Jaguar SUVs. And so when you get in one, there's still a steering wheel. As a passenger, you watch it turn itself, as if guided by an invisible pair of hands. Watching that wheel turn, some people feel wonder, like they're seeing the work of a very impressive engineer. Others feel outrage, like they're watching the space where a human used to be, should still be. That's Julia's perspective.

• 20:50PJ Vogt?

  When Julia was five, she and her mom moved to Boston from the Dominican Republic. Her mother was undocumented for most of her childhood. She cleaned offices for a living. Julia talks about her mom a lot, how from her mom, she inherited an understanding of her mission, to protect working people's jobs.

• 21:07Speaker 04

  I used to work at McDonald's. I used to clean offices with my mom. I did all of that. Those were low entry jobs that I could get. And I saw that with the self-checkout in the supermarkets, right? Those jobs were occupied oftentimes by people who were retired or high school students or young people with disabilities, right? And now those jobs are being replaced by a self-checkout. And there's a sense of, for me, it's a moral issue too, right? That should be at the center of the AI conversation is that morally, while it's exciting and we could do all of this and we could save lots of money, but what is the unintended consequence of that, right?

• 21:49PJ Vogt?

  When you look at it now, like, do you?

• 21:51Speaker 04

  People too.

• 21:52PJ Vogt?

  Really?

• 21:52Speaker 04

  Get out of the line.

• 21:55Speaker 06

  What you doing there? You know that's somebody's job that you just took? The lady, get out my face. I'm like, yes. But nah, man, like, it's, you know, I'm not the moral police, but I just feel like we are not thinking about other people. We're often just thinking about ourselves and what is the quickest way to get out.

• 22:15PJ Vogt?

  To Counselor Mahia, the headline of the day, really the only story, was low-wage workers. In the hearing, she asked the Waymo executive about the precedent that was worrying her, those self-checkout machines.

• 22:27Speaker 06

  So, right now, in supermarkets, they do these self-checkouts.

• 22:33PJ Vogt?

  Correct.

• 22:33Speaker 06

  Right? And those are taking jobs from people. And it seems like there is a trend here. And my biggest concern, as someone who had to have two to three jobs growing up just to make ends meet, is that what we are doing is creating financial hardships for people who are already struggling. And so I'm just curious, how are you reconciling with that impact that you're making on already low-wage workers?

• 22:59PJ Vogt?

  As I said earlier to the other counsel's question, we are committed to increasing workforce developments and job opportunities within the industry.

• 23:06Speaker 06

  How?

• 23:07PJ Vogt?

  I think it's perfect.

• 23:08Speaker 06

  Tell me about for the drivers. How are you increasing workforce development opportunities for the drivers? Not for people who develop apps, not for people who answer phones, for people who are drivers. Like, tell me about what that looks like.

• 23:21PJ Vogt?

  We do not have workforce efforts that are specifically aimed at any part of the population. We are creating jobs for individuals that want to work in the autonomous vehicle industry. If drivers that currently work for Lyft should decide to retire. How you understand a story, in part, has to do with who you hear it from. For months, I'd been listening to the engineers who first streamed up these driverless cars. From their perspective, they'd only ever really had one question. Could they build a car that drove itself more safely than humans could? Waymo believed the answer was now yes. But Boston had a different question. What about jobs? I did speak to Waymo's Northeast Policy Manager, Anthony Perez, who said he didn't want to be disingenuous.

• 24:05PJ Vogt?

  He expected over time, there would be what he called "transition" for app drivers. But that it wasn't a one-to-one displacement. He said Waymo would also create jobs, cleaning the cars, maintaining the sensors, repairing the vehicles. The estimate he pointed me to said every five robo-taxis might create one job. But he was also careful to say that it was just very hard to predict the future. Different cities would be different. He wasn't trying to be evasive, he explained. He was trying to be honest about real uncertainty. But in the hearing that day, as Counselor Mejia pressed Waymo's Matt Walsh to describe exactly what jobs his company could provide the existing Uber and Lyft drivers, Matt Walsh came up short.

• 24:46PJ Vogt?

  If drivers that currently work for Uber or Lyft should decide that they want to work in the autonomous vehicle industry, there will be opportunities for them to do so.

• 24:54Speaker 05

  And what would their job title be?

• 24:56PJ Vogt?

  I'm not going to sit here and sort to speculate what their job opportunities would be.

• 24:59Speaker 05

  So, then let's just come to terms with the fact that we are creating a hostile environment for our hard-working people who are no longer going to have work.

• 25:09PJ Vogt?

  I appreciate the question.

• 25:11Speaker 05

  I forget the guy's name, but he just felt a little bit arrogant. And I felt like, you know what, even after everybody spoke, there should have been a little bit more humility and humanity in his understanding of why people were so adverse to the idea of losing their jobs. Like, he could have won me over a little bit if he gave me a little bit more heart, and he didn't.

• 25:38Speaker 01

  You really think he could have won you over?

• 25:41Speaker 05

  No. I'm just joking. No, nobody could win me over.

• 25:48PJ Vogt?

  Part of the issue, Matt Walsh was an outsider. Worse, an outsider from a tech company worth $126 billion. The logic of Boston politics said that nobody in this room had to listen to him. He was here in his role as a well compensated pinata. I understood that. At the same time, if Waymo was right, if its driver was 80% safer than a human one, that meant there would be preventable car accidents in Boston in the years to come. Accidents caused by human drivers making human mistakes. We'd lose our tempers, we'd check our phones, we'd think about other things while driving. We don't mean to, but we do. And sometimes that means we hurt other people.

• 26:31PJ Vogt?

  The people we hurt would not be voting in the Democratic primary a week after this hearing, but I thought they deserved to have more of a place in the conversation than they'd had so far. Emily Multer, my colleague who'd been observing the interview in Counselor Mejia's office, at one point she chimed in.

• 26:47Speaker 05

  I feel like for me in learning about this technology, I was very skeptical about the safety of it. And, I mean, I've known people who have died in car crashes. I know someone who died in the backseat of an Uber. I don't think it was the Uber driver's fault, but I feel like as I learned more about the technology, I did take seriously the idea that there could be something safer about Waymo technology. Is that something that you're curious about? I'm not curious about that in any kind of way because when I think about safety, and let's just give you the example of the car accident, I don't see someone instinctually coming out of the car to get someone out.

• 27:26Speaker 05

  Like if it was a Waymo robot, or that's not even a robot, it's just a wheel, who would be there to help support the consumer? Who? What? How? So, I don't, I don't think the safety concern is a good compelling argument for me.

• 27:50PJ Vogt?

  For you, you're, it's like, I don't think there's anything they would show you where you would think, you just trust humans more.

• 27:58Speaker 05

  I would hope the world would trust humans more.

• 28:06PJ Vogt?

  Councilor Mejia told us when she left that first hearing, she was pretty sure her side had won. The unions, the app drivers, had made their case against the robots. The Waymo executives had clearly been outmatched. The thing was, though, Councilor Mejia had missed something. There'd been one person whose testimony she just hadn't heard, someone who'd speak for two brief minutes and who'd begin to change the entire conversation in Boston.

• 28:36PJ Vogt?

  After a short break, Carl.

• 29:18PJ Vogt?

  Welcome back to the show.

• 29:24PJ Vogt?

  Emily and I had been in Boston a couple of days now. The cold snap here was at a level I found frankly offensive. I dressed wrong for it and was getting those full body jitterbug shivers vibrating down the sidewalk when we'd go outside.

• 29:39PJ Vogt?

  Very cold. It's the cold you feel in your teeth.

• 29:41Speaker 05

  I'm wearing long underwear. Maybe that's true.

• 29:43PJ Vogt?

  I'm wearing short underwear. Exactly as much as I was suffering, Emily Malter was thriving. Emily, a devoted public transportation nerd. She actually worked for a time in Boston's transit agency. Emily was just happy to be here. A mental tropical vacation. She kept cheerfully suggesting we ride the T to get to our interviews and harassing me with Boston transit facts.

• 30:07Speaker 05

  Did you know the bus in Boston is only $1.70? That's amazing. Yeah. I was working for the T when they did fare raises and one of my personal transit heroes, Laurel Paget Seekins, fought really hard to keep the bus fares low. What were they at before? Where the raises. Uh, well, the, um.

• 30:24PJ Vogt?

  I would cower in the warm alcoves of whatever local business would let me, then hustle into Ubers whenever possible, insisting that taking cabs here was not a luxury or a weakness. It was, in fact, important research. That's what the story was about. It was a joke, but it wasn't. I did want to talk to as many drivers as I could while I was in Boston. I'd end up interviewing eight, four at the union's office, and a random sample of four out in the world. Nearly all the drivers described the job as having recently gotten harder, just like Abdi Aziz had. They were working more hours for less money. But the union and non-union workers differed in some important ways. The non-union drivers didn't really have Waymo on their radar. And they were unlikely to think of driving as a long-term career.

• 31:08PJ Vogt?

  This matches the data we have. A 2018 study found that the average Uber driver drives for three months. It's a lot of people's first job in our country, the ladder to their next one. So the union drivers were pretty unusual, just by dint of the fact that they'd made a career out of this. Those were the things I learned in the cabs I could persuade Emily to take. And in the studies, I read about those cabs. This Tuesday, however, we were walking, the Boston wind playfully tearing the skin from my bones. Our mission that morning was to meet a man named Carl Richardson for an interview that was, thankfully, indoors. He met us in the lobby. We'd never met in person before, but I recognized him when I saw him. What game are we playing, Tom? Hi, how are you, Emily? Nice to meet you. Hi, Carl. Pete, guy, how are you?

• 31:53PJ Vogt?

  Good, how are you? Good, good. Come on, buddy, let's go. Carl has significant hearing loss. He wears two hearing aids. He's also almost completely blind. He has a yellow Labrador with him at all times. That's his guide dog, Dayton. Carl had shown up in these hearings as a private citizen to argue in favor of autonomous vehicles. Like Counselor Julie Mejia, he'd been outraged by what he encountered, but for entirely different reasons.

• 32:22PJ Vogt?

  Chapter three, the right to autonomy.

• 32:27PJ Vogt?

  Carl told me the story of the day as he'd experienced it. First of all, when I walked across City Hall Plaza, you can hear protests and rallies, union protests and rallies.

• 32:38Speaker 05

  Cars and yes to human beings. Union. Hours. Union. Hours. When I say justice. Um, then I walked in and I got there about an hour early on purpose so I could sign on the pizza paper and I had my intern with me. She said I was number three on the list. So I was hoping to go early. We got there. I think they were probably, let's see, the Food and Restaurant Union was there, the App Drivers Union was there, the SDIU Union was there, the Teamster Union was there. I remember the Ambulance Driver Union being there. So the disability community was far outnumbered and I will even tell you that a handful of

• 33:22Speaker 05

  disabled people left. They were so discouraged based on what they were hearing, they didn't even want to testify.

• 33:28PJ Vogt?

  Why? What did they find specifically discouraging?

• 33:31Speaker 05

  I think that they felt like the city councilors had already made up their mind. And I think they heard anger in the room. So some of the people didn't stay. I felt outnumbered, but I still felt like I had an important story to tell.

• 33:51PJ Vogt?

  Carl, in the room that day, kept waiting to speak. He had expected that because of his early sign up, he'd be one of the first speakers. Instead, he waited nearly the entire four hours. For some reason, they'd slotted him almost at the very end.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  Here, Carl Richardson, you have two minutes. Nice to see you.

• 34:09Speaker 05

  Yes, hi, my name is Carl Richardson. I am the Massachusetts State House AVA Coordinator and also an advisory board member for.

• 34:17PJ Vogt?

  You see Carl, he's wearing a light blue button up and a tie.

• 34:20Speaker 05

  We've heard a lot about the impact on the union and the drivers and the workforce. Let's talk about the communities I think it would impact in favor of. Not only people with physical disabilities. And by the time I testified, I threw out my written prepared remarks and I just waved it.

• 34:39Speaker 06

  We keep talking about employment. I want to have that discussion. Do you know how many jobs I've turned down because I can't get there? Or how many interviews?

• 34:47PJ Vogt?

  If you spend time talking to Carl, you learn a lot about unemployment in the disability community. It's high. Their unemployment rate is twice as high as the rest of the workforce. One contributing factor to that number that a lot of people don't think about is just transportation. You can't do a job if you can't reliably get to it.

• 35:05Speaker 05

  I agree that Uber drivers and paratrends are doing an amazing job, but not always. At least once a week, I get denied access to Uber and Lyft because they refuse to take me because I have a service dog and denying me my civil rights. I often get denied access too because they won't go beyond the city limit because they're worried about maximizing their revenue in the ability to pick up a return fare. My life is not limited to the city limit. And the other thing it would do, it would increase.

• 35:36PJ Vogt?

  There's actually been pretty well documented issues with discrimination by Uber drivers against disabled people. There's an active DOJ lawsuit about it right now. Wheelchair users, whose rides are canceled because it would take extra time to help them load in. Blind people whose rides are canceled once the drivers see a service dog. A spokesperson at Uber said they have a zero tolerance policy for confirmed service denials and that Uber fundamentally disagrees with the DOJ's allegations. In the meantime, Carl says he spends a lot of time trying to strategize ways to stop Uber drivers from passing him by. Carl was born with a genetic condition called Usher syndrome type 2. It meant he was destined to lose his vision and hearing, but gradually and as an adult.

• 36:19PJ Vogt?

  It's a difficult diagnosis, in part because psychologically, it requires you to accept so much. To accept loss, knowing that more loss is just ahead, that whatever you get used to, you'll need to get used to more. There was a time in Carl's adult life, for instance, when he had a driver's license.

• 36:35Speaker 05

  So I drove. I had 2020 vision up until I was about 30. Which is one of the reasons why autonomous vehicles are a big deal to me, because I want that feeling that I used to have when I drove, of freedom and independence of mobility. I know what I've lost, you know, so, and I want that back. So, so I, people, but it's not, people deal with it differently.

• 36:59PJ Vogt?

  Yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 05

  And I have, I have a sister who has it. She never took up driving because she knew she was gonna have to give that up someday. And she didn't want to have her heart broken. I, that's good. I'm gonna drive, I'm gonna work in film and television, I'm gonna do everything I can.

• 37:15PJ Vogt?

  What type of car did you drive?

• 37:18Speaker 05

  Well, whatever I hadn't totaled. I drove, what, ten, twelve years? I think I totaled five cars, because I remember I was slowly going blind, but I was in denial. So I'm lucky to be alive and sitting here with you today.

• 37:35PJ Vogt?

  It was hard to let go of driving?

• 37:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, but what finally happened is, I sat behind the wheel of a car one day, getting ready to go to work. And I actually said to myself, am I gonna get to work alive today? And I sat there, and I couldn't answer it. So I called out sick, and I never drove again.

• 38:01PJ Vogt?

  It's a hard thing to give up.

• 38:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I want it back. And I never thought I'd get it back, but I now believe, someday within my lifetime, we might have to convince the politicians you don't need to have eyesight to be able to have the ability to drive an autonomous vehicle, but I think we can do it. Because it isn't just about blind people. Everybody has a mother they have to take away their driving from. Everybody has a father where they say, Dad, I don't know if you should drive anymore. Everybody has a teenager who texts them on their phone. See, we're not even beginning to think about the possibilities of what autonomous vehicles could do.

• 38:44Speaker 05

  The other reason I don't want to ban autonomous vehicles in the city of Boston is because I think eventually it'll lead to personal ownership.

• 38:53PJ Vogt?

  And is that what you really want?

• 38:55Speaker 05

  Oh, you bet. I'm not kidding when I say I have a savings account where I put aside a few hundred bucks a month just for the ability for me to buy an autonomous vehicle someday. And if they ban autonomous vehicles, then they're going to ban me from the right to drive on a living, go to school, go to medical appointment, go to the beach on a Sunday, go visit my mom in a nursing home, whatever, with the flexibility that everybody else has.

• 39:27PJ Vogt?

  Carl wanted me to know that even though Waymo had become the subject of this fight, he did not care if Waymo specifically came to Boston. Any autonomous car company would do. He just wanted to be able to hail a taxi that couldn't pass him by. And he wanted one day to own a car again. In the hearing near the end of his allotted time, he told a story about something that had happened to him recently, an emergency when he needed a ride.

• 39:53Speaker 05

  Imagine that you're blind and your mother called you at seven o'clock on a Sunday night and said, "I just heard from the sheriff department, I'm going to get arrested unless I come up with some money right away." She got a call, she believed it. I'm the primary caregiver in my family. I had to figure out a way to get out there. And the, I got denied three times in a row while I was trying to get out to my mother. Public transportation was an option because it was late on a Sunday night. All I wanted, the ability was to be able to go home to my mom and say, "You're okay and I love you." And that would be the positive impact of autonomous vehicles. So yes, definitely think about the human component and the people component, but think

• 40:38Speaker 05

  about it for the whole community at large, not just the union. Thank you.

• 40:43Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Carl.

• 40:46PJ Vogt?

  How do you think the politicians in the room saw you?

• 40:49Speaker 05

  Well, I don't think they were there to hear my speech. The only one that was there to hear was the chair there hearing.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  So I'm here alone now, so I think it's time to adjourn the hearing.

• 41:03PJ Vogt?

  All the other city councilors had left before Carl's testimony. Many of them had announced in the hearing that they had to go attend a different Team Source event, a strike by the sanitation workers. Boston's a union town.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Docket 1141 is adjourned.

• 41:19Speaker 05

  At that hearing, I didn't feel like the disability voice or perspective was heard. And it was then that I decided I was going to go back and bring even more people with me to the second hearing.

• 41:36PJ Vogt?

  The second hearing. In July, two city councilors had unveiled a fairly bold anti-Waymo ordinance. The ordinance decreed that any driverless car in Boston had to have a human driver in the driver's seat at all times, and called for a feasibility study of the tech, which would include organized labor but not the disability community. If passed functionally, this would be a ban. The plan was to vote on the ordinance after the second hearing, which would take place in October. The driverless car in Boston was on trial.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  For the record, my name is Gabriela Coletta Zapata, District 1 City Councilor. I'm the chair of the Boston City Council Committee on Government Operations. Today is October 28th, 2025.

• 42:17PJ Vogt?

  Chapter 4, A Good Fight.

• 42:21PJ Vogt?

  The second hearing would go differently. It would go differently from the beginning. One reason was because of its referee, Presiding Councilor Gabriela Coletta Zapata, who started by trying to establish some ground rules.

• 42:32Speaker 04

  There will be no demonstration of approval or disapproval or signs. So thank you so much for your understanding. We appreciate you. Again, thank you so much for being here.

• 42:42PJ Vogt?

  The union went first, a string of testimonies from all sorts of drivers, many familiar faces from the previous hearing. And of course, Councilor Julia Mejia was here, dressed today in a jaunty black beret and black glasses. I'm still in shock that I have to even have this conversation, that here we are in this day and age, trying to defend ourselves from robots taking over our jobs, right? And right here, this is the first. First line of defense, because first they come for the poor jobs, right? You know, I'm always ready for a good fight, so I walked in ready. I'm like, this is one-two punch, I'm gonna take them all out this time, you know?

• 43:20PJ Vogt?

  Counselor Mejia, in Spanish, says, "They start by attacking the poorest, but from there, they keep picking us off." That the city of Boston is not gonna let anyone take away the income of its people.

• 43:30Speaker 06

  No clapping, no clapping, I want no problems.

• 43:32Speaker 04

  Please, no clapping.

• 43:34Speaker 06

  Por favor, no problema, please.

• 43:37Speaker 05

  The chair of that hearing made it very clear, we're gonna listen to everybody, we're gonna take it in the order of testimony, everybody's gonna get three minutes, there are gonna be no outbursts, they control the hearing much better.

• 43:48Speaker 04

  Your testimony and your contributions, and we're gonna transition because we do have a long list to public testimony, so, thank you, thank you so much.

• 43:55PJ Vogt?

  After the union had spoken, everyone else who put their names on the list got their chance to talk.

• 44:00Speaker 05

  So, in closing, if you do do a study, look at not only how it would negatively impact people, but look how it would positively impact people, because to me autonomous vehicles is not a dystopian future. The second side of the story, it's a legitimate side of the story, and I felt like I wasn't gonna be alone, because I had a lot of people with disabilities in the room with me that day.

• 44:22PJ Vogt?

  There must be more accessible, affordable, and reliable transportation. Carl had done his version of what the unions had done so well in the first round. He summoned his own coalition. Hello, my name is Stephen Ureody from the... These were people from Best Buddies, an organization for people with intellectual disabilities, dear citizens from Boston's blind community.

• 44:41Speaker 04

  As a legally blind guide dog user in Boston, I have fewer transportation options than I did 10 years ago.

• 44:48Speaker 05

  I came from New Hampshire, in what I used to call transportation desert, where I only had to rely on my family to help me get back and forth to be able to... I felt the room had a, almost what I would call a seismic shift.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Autonomous vehicles have the potential to give me and other people with disabilities increased independence, mobility... and flexibility. Well, I think we can go where the ride can't go. There was even a mother against drunk driving who spoke on one of the panels, right? Autonomous vehicles represent another important tool in the effort to eliminate impaired driving. We welcome Waymo into I mean, what are you gonna say to a mother? You don't have a right to want autonomous vehicles because your son died?

• 45:32PJ Vogt?

  What were you just like feeling watching them talk?

• 45:36Speaker 04

  So, you know, to be honest with you, at first, I didn't know what I was walking into, like, to be honest, like, I thought I was gonna get more of the last go around. But the second hearing, they were more strategic. And when I started hearing from some of the disability community members, you know, I also felt like some of it was very, you know, scripted. And I haven't worked in this space, understand how you set up all of your advocates to all be on the same message. So I felt like, hmm, they all saying the same thing. I've seen this action.

• 46:14PJ Vogt?

  Thank you, Madam Chair. And I want to first start off by thanking the public testimony. I think to my colleague's earlier point is so So, Councilor Mejia, who says what she thinks, told the room that what she thought she'd just seen was a show, a show put on by Waymo. benefit from that are not the people that we're trying to serve or the people that we're trying to protect. So I just want to name that that was very poor taste, in my personal humble opinion. While I think it's important for us to get that on the record, I think what it did is provide I think the words you used in that hearing is that you said you felt like it was in poor taste.

• 46:51Speaker 04

  Well, I really did say poor taste. I did. Oh, my God. Everybody needs therapy after they get done with my hearings. Lord. Have mercy. So yeah, I do believe that they are utilizing the disability community to their advantage. And you don't do that to people.

• 47:12Speaker 04

  It's wrong. Period.

• 47:16PJ Vogt?

  I don't know how to ask this question. It's like slightly delicate, but also I'm

• 47:21PJ Vogt?

  I think I don't, I'm not worried about it. Like Waymo is not an accessibility company. Like, it's not as if they're inventing autonomous vehicles for accessibility reasons. They want to reach a large market. Like, accessibility is, is part of it. It's also the fact of the accessibility issue and the fact of like disabled people as allies for them is convenient. Like, do you

• 47:50Speaker 05

  Sure. But so is AARP when they push certain things, right? And they have elderly spokespersons. And

• 48:01Speaker 05

  yes, it's convenient that the two things align together. And I hear you. And maybe that's a little selfish for Waymo.

• 48:11Speaker 05

  But I'm going into this knowing what I'm getting into. I know that Waymo is aligning themselves. I'm not going to say using us because I'm not, if you listen to me talk, you can't take advantage of me unless I want to be. Right? So I know what I'm getting into when I present on behalf of autonomous vehicles. I don't care if they make a profit if it means my mobility, my freedom, and my independence.

• 48:37Speaker 05

  Okay, is Waymo reaching out to the blind community? Yes. Are they perhaps giving donations to the American Council for the Blind?

• 48:48Speaker 05

  Yes. But the individuals aren't making a dime. The money's going to nonprofit, right, organization. So

• 48:58Speaker 05

  Did that answer your question?

• 49:00PJ Vogt?

  Yeah, and I don't, it's like, I personally, I feel like it's just, it's a question.

• 49:05Speaker 05

  I don't feel like I'm being used, if that's what you're getting at. They never said how to testify. They never once told me what to say. They just said, please testify on behalf of autonomous vehicles. That's all. That's it. Nobody held my hand, nobody gave me coaching. And I, to my knowledge, the handful of people that I recruited that testified, none of them got coaching either.

• 49:32PJ Vogt?

  So that's Carl's position. Counselor Mahia, though, in the room that day, was very fired up, very focused on the target of her ire. So I just want to name that that was very poor taste, to utilize folks who are already vulnerable to fight on behalf of those who have so much more than any of us here. She directed some very strong words at the man sitting across from her, the man in a suit with gray hair. Waymo, and I'll start with the CEO, maybe. How can we utilize Waymo instead of replacing our app drivers to improve the quality of experiences for those folks who have complained?

• 50:11Speaker 07

  I, I think utilizing Waymo and an autonomous vehicle opens the door for elimination of practices, illegal practices of discrimination.

• 50:24PJ Vogt?

  No, that's not the question. The question is, right? Because you talk about your technology and your ability. Counselor Mahia pressed. She wanted him to answer, how could Waymo create new technology that would improve life for blind people without using driverless cars? App drivers, that's the question.

• 50:40Speaker 07

  That, I'm not that technology advanced to answer that question.

• 50:43PJ Vogt?

  But you're the CEO of a technology company, that's going to be put.

• 50:47Speaker 07

  No, I'm, I'm the present CEO of the Carol Center for the Blind.

• 50:50PJ Vogt?

  Well, I was just going to say, Gary, that I, I am in.

• 50:54Speaker 07

  It's just, it's Greg, just.

• 50:56PJ Vogt?

  Greg, oh my God, so if somebody gave me the wrong piece of paper, because they got you as the CEO of Waymo and the Greg, like, well, my team better get it together. Okay, so, let's go back. Let me just stay with you real quick, right? I think there is. There was a white guy who had on a suit. I just made all types of assumptions. Oh, my God. So he was going on and on about his stuff. And I think I, I even think I even said his name wrong. I didn't know who he was. And I felt like, you know how when you have egg in your face? Like, I had to pick up my face and put it back on because I was like, embarrassing. Because you were giving him a hard time. Giving him a hard time. And then he has to say to you, I don't work for Waymo. I was like, well, OK, then. I'm still mad at you, though.

• 51:41PJ Vogt?

  It was embarrassing. Not really. I mean, you know what it was? It was like because it sounded like he worked for Waymo. Because he was there advocating fiercely for that community in ways that made me feel like he was part of their team. So, yeah, I mean, I was like, OK, you're on the other side of this. But you're not really on the other side because you're sitting on the Waymo panel anyway. So you're still part of them. I think that if I try to sympathize with the feeling Counselor Mejia is expressing here, this is how I understand it. It can be annoying when the other side is a mix of people you're allowed to dismiss out of hand, tech executives, allied with people you're not, disability advocates.

• 52:25PJ Vogt?

  And when those advocates are all saying similar things, when it's your people, that sounds like solidarity. When it's them, it can sound phony. It can sound orchestrated.

• 52:38PJ Vogt?

  But the whole reason I'd found this fight so fascinating is because I thought it was one where you really couldn't easily dismiss anybody. For the people who believe driverless cars will save lots of lives, the human beings with jobs are an unignorable fact.

• 52:55PJ Vogt?

  For the people who want to protect those jobs, the human beings asking for better accessibility or safer roads are also an unignorable fact. This fantasy that there were blind people who were secret lobbyists was tempting because if that were true, it would mean the world was a simpler place. It's not. The chair, Councilor Coletta Zapata, said this in the room, pretty explicitly. Nobody had been paid to be there.

• 53:22Speaker 04

  But I think for the advocates that have been here and that have provided public testimony, especially maybe from on those in favor of this, I think it's important to say that everybody has their own individual agency and they were here on their own accord.

• 53:37PJ Vogt?

  Councilor Coletta Zapata, you can see her in the video. Shoulder-length brown hair, big, clear glasses. Like Councilor Mejia, she comes from an activist background. As the hearing closed that day, she'd gone from being just the neutral moderator to, when it was her turn, asking the Waymo executive a lot of questions. Questions about jobs, but also just questions about the car. How did it work? What happened when a blind person ordered one? How did they find it? She seemed to be using the hearing to try to get information, which is how I'd been trying to use the hearing. And I wondered if her experience as a participant had been at all like mine as an observer. Can I just tell you, and I don't know if this is a question or just like a statement, when I was watching the hearings, the thing that was annoying to me was like, I felt

• 54:21PJ Vogt?

  like on Waymo's side, they were unwilling to engage with the reality of job loss. But on the App Drivers Union's side, I found myself being annoyed because I didn't see them engaging with a question of safety. The idea that these cars could prevent death or that they could be good for disabled people, it was like neither side wanted to, they just kept skipping what to me felt like the core trade-offs here, when you talk about this could be really good or this could be really bad.

• 54:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, I saw that too. And it's my job, it's all of our jobs as folks that are trying to be thoughtful and take a comprehensive approach to listen to every side. And that will require a lot of compromise and a lot of consensus, but I think that that's good policymaking.

• 55:07PJ Vogt?

  What do you feel like you need, like if you had a magic wand to just get exactly the information you want to have to be able to make a decision about whether autonomous vehicles are right for Boston, what's the data you'd want to see?

• 55:19Speaker 04

  I love the magic wand question. Because it always talks about like the possibility of getting to a place where everybody's happy, which I don't think is ever going to happen. But I would be happy to get more data of if we could, if I had a magic wand, how many folks? Would this employ? How many folks would ultimately lose their job? What would be the exact number of potential crashes or safety incidences on behalf of Waymo? And how does that stack up to the existing safety and traffic instances that are already happening in the city of Boston? There, I mean, there's a lot. There's a lot. And yeah, how much money is Waymo going to make off of this? Because I think that's a central question to, okay,

• 56:03Speaker 04

  is one company is going to benefit? And then there could be hundreds of, potentially hundreds of workers that are out of a job? And what that means for our local economy? And so it behooves us as legislators to ask these difficult questions and to challenge not just these major corporations, but challenge labor unions and to challenge advocacy organizations and to try not to get motivated by our passions.

• 56:30PJ Vogt?

  This was the only time in Boston I really heard anyone say this, that to get to a good answer, every single side would need to be challenged. That finding a solution would be refusing to offer any group blanket deference. I'd now heard the 20-year story of these cars. I'd read the safety data and I'd done my best in Boston to just listen. In general, I wasn't very satisfied with what I'd heard, but I appreciated Councilor Coletta Zapata's prescription, that everyone try to calm their passions, to ask good questions. And Councilor Mejia, for her part, said that she would like to bring all stakeholders to the table, including disability activists. Emily and I left Boston. As we zipped down I-95 in a human-driven car, talking about what we'd seen, here's where things stood back in Bean Town.

• 57:16PJ Vogt?

  At the end of the second hearing, the city council had chosen not to vote on the ordinance, the functional Waymo ban that many of the councillors had spent eight hours speaking in full-throated support of. It seemed possible they'd noticed that passing an ordinance that so thoroughly excluded the disability community was not politically wise. The decision on Waymo now seems to be moving to the state level. There, we now have competing bills. One that would approve driverless cars, the other that would require a human being behind the wheel at all times, essentially a ban.

• 57:49PJ Vogt?

  Driving home, I had a realization about what we'd seen there. Emily and I had sat for days with different people who all believed they'd glimpsed a vision of the future. Abdi Aziz had a vision of Waymo finishing what Uber had started, taking the market for itself. Carl had a vision of a future where he drove again to the beach with his wife. Counselor Mahia had an ominous vision, where her neighborhood was empty, the people all replaced by machines. Everybody was here in the present, fighting for, fighting against, a movie playing in their minds. Here's the vision I see. I started to glimpse it in a conversation with reporter Timothy B. Lee. We were talking about the future. He was describing his vision of how things were about to change.

• 58:34PJ Vogt?

  He pointed out how today, if a robot driver makes a mistake, footage goes viral online. But someday soon, he imagines we'll be in a situation where the clips that go viral will be of human beings doing the kinds of things on the road that today we just tolerate. Like, can you believe this maniac is still allowed to drive? I do think that society's tolerance for bad driving is going to go down. So there's been this trend over the last few decades where the amount of training you need as a teenager to get a driver's license has been going up. I think that'll continue to go up. And if somebody's caught drunk driving, we're pretty reluctant to take the driver's license away because their livelihood might depend on it. But once driverless taxes are cheap, or once you can buy a driverless vehicle, a judge might be much more comfortable saying like the penalty for your first instance of drunk driving is a lifetime ban on driving a car.

• 59:19PJ Vogt?

  Like, you can have a driverless car that takes you wherever you want, but you just can't get behind the wheel.

• 59:28PJ Vogt?

  In Timothy's vision, change comes fast. In about five years, driverless cars are as common as Uber's today. In around 10 years, every new car standard just has a Waymo package: a robot driver and sensors, a button you can press if you don't want to drive. I share Timothy's vision. I believe driverless cars will soon be everywhere. Not even just because they're safer, but because of consumer demand, the same force that broke the politicians who resisted Uber not long ago.

• 59:59PJ Vogt?

  A lot of AI is like this. Technology too useful to ignore, even if it causes social pain. If we're gonna be okay, we're gonna need to envision some new futures, new compromises, new ways to share the dividends of progress with the people at this places. There are precedents for this. When containerization put a ton of longshoremen out of work in the 1960s, the West Coast Union negotiated a deal. The employers could bring in the new machines, but they had to pay into a fund that guaranteed the existing workforce wouldn't be laid off and give early retirement payouts to workers whose jobs disappeared. You could do something like that. You could do a lot of things. But whatever we're gonna do, I did not find the seeds of that new compromise in Boston.

• 1:00:44PJ Vogt?

  It also does not exist in DC, which has been delaying driverless cars with bureaucratic hurdles. Or in New York, where my governor talked briefly about allowing driverless cars, then retreated under pressure. But these are the places where a bargain could likely be struck. These are where drivers, Democrats, and Teamsters have, for a few more years at least, leverage. They should use it. But they'll have to be inventive. They'll have to imagine visions of the future more vivid than the word "no."

• 1:02:09PJ Vogt?

  This episode of Search Engine is brought to you in part by Toyota. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all-wheel-drive Camry Corolla Cross or get a Corolla sedan packed with the latest features, advanced tech, and head-turning style. Take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Grand Highlander and adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid and plug-in hybrid models available across the lineup, plus efficient all-electrics like the BZ, BZ Woodland, and all-wheel-drive CHR, you can drive your way and skip the pump. And, long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with legendary resale value

• 1:02:52PJ Vogt?

  built on a reputation for quality and reliability. So when it's time for your next Toyota, you can trade in for more. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 1:03:12Speaker 04

  Our presenting sponsor today is Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Anthropic is a research company first, built to make sure the transition to powerful AI goes well. When they launched Claude in 2023, its first users were businesses. Since then, it's been tested inside leading startups and enterprises. At DoorDash, a code migration that would have taken four engineers months to complete took one person three weeks. At Carvana, one team used to hunt through old tickets and code to answer a question. With Claude, they get answers 65% faster. And at Rakuten, engineers have achieved 99.9% accuracy on tough coding jobs using Claude. Today, nine Fortune 10 companies run on Claude

• 1:03:57Speaker 04

  for the work they want to get right. And these businesses are helping Anthropic shape what comes next. Build your business with support from Claude at claude.ai/odyssey.

• 1:04:15PJ Vogt?

  Search Engine is a presentation of Odyssey. It was created by me, PJ Vogt, and Trudy Pinnamaneni. Garrett Graham is our senior producer. Emily Malter is our associate producer. Theme, original composition, and mixing by Armin Bazarian. Just did a fantastic job on the music in these two episodes, if I can say that. Our production intern is Piper Dumont. This episode was fact-checked by Mary Mathis. Our executive producer is Leah Reese-Dennis. Thanks to the rest of the team at Odyssey: Rob Morandi, Craig Cox, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Maura Curran, Josephine Francis, Kurt Courtney, and Hillary Shuck. Special thanks to Kim Koopel, Alfred Potter, Omar F. Semi, Isabel Urbano, Erica Noel, Alejandro Terrero, and all the folks at the Boston SEIU office, plus Anthony Perez, Matt Schumwinger, Alex Roy,

• 1:05:00PJ Vogt?

  Karen Levy, Henry, Donna, and the many other Uber drivers we bugged for this story. If you would like to support reporting, like the reporting in these two episodes, plus get ad-free episodes, zero reruns, and bonus episodes, please consider signing up for incognito mode at searchengine.show. It's how we keep this thing running. Thanks for listening. We'll see you soon.