341 | Stewart Brand on Maintenance as an Organizing Principle

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold," wrote W. B. Yeats. I don't know about the centre, but the tendency of things to fall apart is pretty universal, ultimately due to the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Anyone living in a society or involved with technology must therefore be interested in the concept of maintenance -- keeping systems working. In his book Maintenance: Of Everything, Part One https://press.stripe.com/maintenance-part-one, Stewart Brand looks at the challenges and rewards of this concept. Blog post with transcript: https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2026/01/19/341-stewart-brand-on-maintenance-as-an-organizing-principle/ Support Mindscape on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/seanmcarroll. Stewart Brand received an undergraduate degree in biology from Stanford University. He was the founder, editor, and publisher of the Whole Earth Catalog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_Earth_Catalog, which won a National Book Award. He founded the journal CoEvolution Quarterly and the WELL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_WELL electronic community, and was a co-founder of the Long Now Foundation http://www.longnow.org/. He has been called "the 20th century's top influencer https://www.npr.org/2025/07/11/g-s1-76555/from-hippies-to-techies-stewart-brand-is-the-20th-centurys-top-influencer." Web site https://sb.longnow.org/SB_homepage/Home.html Amazon author page https://www.amazon.com/stores/Stewart-Brand/author/B000AQ4GYA Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_Brand

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• 0:56Sean Carroll?

  Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Mindscape Podcast. I'm your host, Sean Carroll. I don't know if you know, but recently the Golden Globes happened. This is one of those award shows where they give prizes to movie stars and TV stars and things like that. But they had a new category at the Golden Globes this year: Best Podcast. The Mindscape Podcast did not win Best Podcast. It was not nominated. It was probably not even noticed by the people who did the nominating and deciding who was going to be on the list. You know, what can we say? Our civilization continues to let me down in various ways, but I can't complain too much. The winner of Best Podcast this year was Amy Poehler, who won for her podcast Good

• 1:40Sean Carroll?

  Hang with Amy Poehler, which I think I've mentioned previously. And it's a good podcast. All of the people who actually were nominated, entertainers, comedians, and whatever, not a lot of natural philosophers were represented. But I bring this up not just because I want to put the idea in the minds of anyone listening that maybe I should be nominated in the future, but there was an episode of Good Hang with Amy Poehler featuring Kate McKinnon. I haven't actually heard this episode, but Jennifer, my wife, has heard it. I've heard other episodes. And one of the things that happened in the interview with Kate McKinnon is that she expressed her enthusiasm for a YouTube channel by an Australian guy named Bruce the Plumber.

• 2:26Sean Carroll?

  And the YouTube channel is called Drain Cleaning Australia. Yes, you heard that correctly. It's all about cleaning clogged drains. Bruce the plumber, who in a hilariously cartoonish, over-the-top Australian accent, goes to various kitchens and restaurants and things like that and finds clogs and cleans grease traps and basically pulls out these ugly messes that have accumulated over the years in the pipes. You might think this is somewhat of a niche kind of activity to have as a popular YouTube channel, but it's not just Kate McKinnon's favorite. Every one of these videos that he puts up gets millions of hits.

• 3:08Sean Carroll?

  They are intrinsically interesting to, I guess, a whole bunch of people. And that does warm my heart because maintenance of our world is kind of important, right? Fixing things is something that has an endless fascination for a lot of people. Of course, it also has a repulsion for a lot of people. Plenty of people don't have anything to do with doing important maintenance. That's why these drains get clogged in the first place. But you know, we live in a society that is increasingly interconnected, complicated, hierarchical, networked in various ways. There's a lot of infrastructure, a lot of stuff that needs to be kept up, from our

• 3:48Sean Carroll?

  cars, to our kitchens, to our houses, to our electronic infrastructure through which you're listening to this podcast right now. And there's just a simple fact about the laws of nature and the second law of thermodynamics that things are going to break. There's a lot more ways to be broken than to be in good working order. And what we do to keep things from breaking is we maintain them in various ways. You can think of the act of maintenance as generating entropy somewhere in the universe in the service of lowering it somewhere else, lowering it either in some mechanical thing or some electronic thing or in a biological thing.

• 4:28Sean Carroll?

  Biology can be thought of as a set of systems that have solved the problem of self-maintenance, at least to some accuracy. But despite the importance of maintenance for living in a world with the second law of thermodynamics, as a subject...

• 4:44Sean Carroll?

  We all know about it, but we don't sort of take it as a particular theme of interest in its own right. Maybe drain cleaning, or fixing your car, or something like that is of interest, but the general aspect of maintenance overall is not given a lot of attention. It should be, because the world is becoming more complicated, and there's even sort of flashpoints of controversy. Increasingly, various companies don't want to let you fix their stuff. They want to make it unfixable, and people have fought against this with the notion of the right to repair things. They want to have legislation passed, saying, "I get to fix things when they break.

• 5:26Sean Carroll?

  I don't need to buy a new iPhone or whatever from you." So today's guest, Stuart Brand, has written a book that does in fact focus on this theme. His book is called Maintenance, and it's volume one. There's going to be more volumes coming up. So this is volume one, which is Maintenance of Everything, just talking about the general concept of maintenance. And he's a storyteller, Stuart, and he tells various stories about people in single sailor sailing ships that have to fix their sails and riggings in the middle of a storm in the ocean, all the way up to fixing modern electronic infrastructure in various ways. Now, of course, Stuart Brand is a famous guy. He was the originator of the Whole Earth Catalog.

• 6:11Sean Carroll?

  None of you were alive for that, but back in the 60s and 70s, this was a big deal. The Whole Earth Catalog was a way to like, know where you could find the stuff you needed to exist in the world, which could be as simple as, you know, food or tools, but also where to learn, you know, computer programming or whatever. Of course, these days, we have the internet to teach us this stuff. Stuart knows this very, very well. He talks about it in his book, so the Whole Earth Catalog is no longer published, but he also... Was one of the founders of the WELL. The WELL stands for Whole Earth Electronic Link, which is one of the first online communities, really, as well as a co-founder of the Long Now Foundation, which tries to focus humanity's

• 6:56Sean Carroll?

  attention on the fact that there are things that last more than a couple of years, and maybe we should think about the further future than we usually do. So he's an iconic figure in various fields, and I find it just fascinating that this idea of maintenance is what he's turned his attention to. And the book, as Stuart explains in the interview, he's writing the book in real time, or at least he's writing it sequentially. So he puts chapters online and then just collects them into a book. So if he feels like, oh, I need to have a digression about motorcycles, then okay, we're going to have a digression about motorcycles. Oh, we did a digression about rust? Okay, we're going to digress about rust.

• 7:41Sean Carroll?

  And if you're into that thing, if you go along to the spirit of the discovery in real time, it's a wonderful read. So let's go.

• 8:05Sean Carroll?

  Stuart Brand, welcome to the Mindscape Podcast.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  Well, thank you. It's an honor to be here.

• 8:11Sean Carroll?

  So we're going to be talking about your new book, which is about maintenance. I mean, feel free, by the way, to chip in with any stories you have over a very colorful career, thinking about big ideas and doing fun things. But I wanted to start just by thinking, rather than about maintenance, about the book. Because you've written a book in quite a compelling but somewhat quirky style, I would say. As someone who's written books, you have your own way of doing it. And I just wanted to know, is that a conscious choice? Or is this just like, that's the only way you know how to write a book, and that's the way you're going to do it?

• 8:46Speaker 03

  This one is extra quirky. And what I decided to do is write it sequentially and write it available online. So in a sense, it's... Like Charles Dickens doing a serial version of his novels and so on. And what that does is forces me into the same situation as the reader, which is that I don't know what's coming and they don't know what's coming. And so we're in a similar situation. And then because I'm sort of moving through the material

• 9:26Speaker 03

  and sort of doing research live as I'm, as I'm writing with each section, um, things come up and I realize, uh, oh dear, I have to explain about why precision is important for Henry Ford to be able to do interchangeable parts on the Model T. And, uh, so I'm just going to stop everything and go through the history of precision in the 19th century and how that led to all sorts of things, including DARPA, uh, because it was the military that was pushing for interchangeable parts because they wanted the soldiers to be able to fix their, uh,

• 10:11Speaker 03

  weapons in the field instead of having to go to a gunsmith. And that drove basically America into the leadership of the industrial revolution.

• 10:22Sean Carroll?

  It's a very effective way, I think, with, with the digressions. Like as long as the reader goes along with you in the spirit in which it's attended, uh, life is full of digressions, right? Life is just not a simple process from A to B. And so learning things in that way, I think, kind of works.

• 10:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's, uh, so then the other thing I've got is like the reader, I know what I've read so far. I'm assuming they're reading the book sequentially, uh, even though it is kind of fragile and something you can dive into anywhere and, uh, be captured by it, uh, partly because of the illustrations, which I put a lot of effort into.

• 11:01Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 11:01Speaker 03

  And, um, part of being a good writer is, um, surprising the reader. And partly you can surprise them with content. You can surprise them with news that they didn't know. And, uh, because I've been a general editor most of my life, I sort of know what most people know. Uh, Steven Pinker would be so pleased. Um.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  And so I sort of know somewhat better than Donald Trump does what's actually surprising news. And, you know, he's surprised by stuff that he sees and his, the transcript that he's reading. I don't do that. And if I'm surprised and kind of delighted by something I discover, I'll put it across to the reader in that mode, you know, somewhat deadpan.

• 11:58Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 11:59Speaker 03

  I'm not, I don't use many exclamation points, but it's ideally, you want to read the next page for the next revelation of something surprising. And that's a large part of how it proceeds.

• 12:14Sean Carroll?

  So with that in mind, the topic is maintenance. Now, the implication of the title of the book is that this is part one, there'll be a part two at some point. But I just wanted to ask about that subject matter. I mean, maintenance is something that seems a little bit prosaic for, you know, having a whole book about it. What is it that really focused you in on that as the theme?

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Um, that has not been a subject in its own right ever. It's sort of like the discovery of infrastructure. When the term infrastructure was introduced, kind of the middle of the 20th century, it was like a new way to think about things, new way to think about cities, new way to think about civilization. As we've been building up a global infrastructure, it's a new way to think about a global civilization and the things that it has to maintain basically to keep going. And the ambition to grasp, basically, the whole world of maintenance is crazy, but fun.

• 13:25Sean Carroll?

  It is.

• 13:26Speaker 03

  And fun for the reader, as well as me. So the...

• 13:31Speaker 03

  You know, most of us are doing maintenance most of the time in one form or another. And I can tell you, when you get to be eighty seven, you're doing, which I am, you get to be doing quite a lot of maintenance just to get through the day. And that, and you talk to software engineers, and most of them are basically doing maintenance, trying to keep all the stuff that's changing in the universe where the programs they care about are operating, up to speed, debugging, weird things that come in from new dependencies that were introduced, blah, blah, blah. And so, and most engineers, mechanical engineers, are taking up on maintenance.

• 14:16Speaker 03

  I have, in what's going to be the next part of the book, a history of blacksmithing. And people talk about blacksmiths, the amazing things they made. Mostly, they spent most of their time like doctors, fixing stuff that was broken. Yeah. And so that's, it is an all encompassing and therefore hard to get your head around domain. And I, I don't think there's any like, deep insights into, okay, this is the way to think about maintenance and all will be well, other than that you bear in mind the system that the thing that you're maintaining is immersed in.

• 15:01Speaker 03

  And so you get some systems perspective on it, and really what you want to do is maintain the thing that the system is in, and probably the system that that system is in, at least two levels up hierarchically. And that's about it for generalizations that are, that have any substance. So then, you want to start looking at way different kinds of maintenance. How come Japanese culture is so incredibly careful about maintenance? How come the military is so incredibly careful about maintenance, or aerospace, or manufacturing,

• 15:39Speaker 03

  since Toyota basically developed the systems that are highly, highly maintenance oriented? So, it's a... Survey, I guess.

• 15:52Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Oh, focusing on details. There's very little opinion. My voice is in there, right? And sometimes my personal experiences are in there if they relate. But by and large, I want to go into the details of how various kinds of maintenance play out and what happens when they don't play out well. And what do you do then?

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• 17:11Sean Carroll?

  I have to relate an anecdote that I think I've probably told on the podcast before, but there is this field called quantum error correction in the study of quantum computers.

• 17:23Speaker 03

  I've heard of that. Great.

• 17:25Sean Carroll?

  Yeah, you should. You should. Well, all I want to say about it is John Preskill, who's a good friend of mine and a great physicist, former podcast guest here, he was a pioneer in quantum error correction. If you have a quantum computer and you have these qubits, they're entangled. What do you do if one of the qubits gets messed up? It turns out to be much, much harder than for a classical computer because of the entanglement between different qubits. And when I first heard the term, I was like, that sounds like the most boring thing in the world, quantum error correction. But I was super wrong. It turns out to be absolutely central, not just to building quantum computers, but to many ideas in theoretical physics. So hopefully I've learned my lesson there.

• 18:09Speaker 03

  Really?

• 18:10Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  Well, say a little more about it. What do you have to do to maintain your quantum?

• 18:18Sean Carroll?

  Well, if you send a classical message, so let's say you send a single bit, right? A zero or a one. There's a very simple strategy, which is just to send three copies of it, right? And if there's some noise and there's some chance that one of the bits gets flipped, but it's a small chance, then at the end you get your three copies. And if one of them is wrong, you just discard it. You know, like you take the majority rules. And that that works very, very well, classically. But quantum mechanically, if you mess up one of those bits, it's entangled with the others and it ruins everything. So you need to have a, you need to invent a new kind of quantum redundancy, which I'm not going to explain right now.

• 19:02Sean Carroll?

  But it turns out that that idea of quantum redundancy might be crucial to understanding the origin of space and time.

• 19:12Sean Carroll?

  So it's the universe kind of doing maintenance on itself.

• 19:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, what does a researcher working in that domain do to maintain, basically to fix, error correct the message?

• 19:31Sean Carroll?

  Well, the first thing you need to do is some theory. You need to decide how can you encode a quantum entangled set of qubits in such a way that there is an algorithm for doing the equivalent of voting, right? You know, picking the majority rule. And so people have done that. And then you need to build into your quantum computer, steps in the algorithm that along the way massage the qubits to make sure that they have not been, have not been subject to noise. So you're going to have to build, it's going to be an important step if you want to build quantum computers that can do commercially useful applications.

• 20:13Speaker 03

  That's fantastic. And do you think that's solvable in all this going forward with quantum computers?

• 20:21Sean Carroll?

  I do, I do. It's going to be trickier than we thought to build large quantum computers. They're very, very fragile. And so the theory is there, the technology for building qubits is there, but keeping them all decohered, etc., you know, or coherent, I suppose I should say, is going to be tricky. So, yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 03

  So you have David Deutsch on my sleeve. Where is he in all of that? He's in the thick of quantum computing, I thought.

• 20:54Sean Carroll?

  Absolutely, yeah. I mean, he was one of the people who invented the idea of quantum computing. But, you know, now there's money involved. So lots of people are very, very active in both the theory side and the technology side. And so the people like David, who are, you know, the big picture creative thinkers, they're thinking about other things these days.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  Well, it's interesting. He's become very popular in the tech world here. We're all reading David Deutsch and basically getting the kind of cosmic level optimism that goes with his understanding that all problems are solvable, but problems never go away. There's always new ones to solve. And that's what progress is made of. And in that sense, progress is inevitable.

• 21:47Sean Carroll?

  Yes.

• 21:48Speaker 03

  And so techies like that, because technological process, progress feels, scientific progress feels like it's kind of built into the universe.

• 21:57Sean Carroll?

  Yeah. And I think that these are fascinating questions. Actually, that's a good segue. I do want to get back to your book here. Maintenance, the need for maintenance is built into the universe because of the second law of thermodynamics, right? Things want to dissolve back into equilibrium. And if we have a complex system doing something useful, we have to keep it from falling apart. Is that a way of thinking about maintenance?

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Spelling out a little further from the second law perspective.

• 22:28Sean Carroll?

  Well, you know, if entropy always increases in a closed system, the ultimate end state for anything is just equilibrium, right? You know, the temperatures all smooth out, everything becomes kind of boring. The kinds of things that are complex systems doing interesting things, whether they're mechanical or technological or biological, are very, very, very far from equilibrium because they're in very specific organizational patterns. And so there's a lot more ways for a machine to be broken than working. That's an aspect of the second law. So I take it that fighting against that can be thought of as what maintenance is all about in some spirit.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  One of the aspects of maintenance that emerged for me relates to that, which is, as you say, there's way more ways a thing can go wrong than can go right.

• 23:21Sean Carroll?

  Right.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  And as a consequence, skilled maintainers actually wind up having to know more about the system than the people who designed it and built it.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  And a lot of whether a thing is kind of mature and resilient and robust in the world is

• 23:47Speaker 03

  if the makers, the designers and the manufacturers, pay very close attention to what the maintainers are learning about their system, then all is well because they will design for lower, better, easier maintenance. And if they don't, the system can be really, really stupid and not getting smarter. And so one of the things I keep coming across is when when the makers of things are paying close attention to the maintainers of those things, all goes well, and if not, not.

• 24:29Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 24:31Sean Carroll?

  Well, you start the book with these wonderful examples of the sailing race. I forget what the race was called, but the race that started in

• 24:41Speaker 03

  Golden Globe.

• 24:42Sean Carroll?

  The gold, right, right. And you picked on, there's several people who were in the race, but you chose three sailors. These were solo trips, literally circumnavigating the oceans. And they, these three people you talk about had very different attitudes toward, towards maintenance, and it showed.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, as I said at the beginning of that story, there were nine competitors in the Golden Globe race in 1968, all sailing from England. And the three who became basically immortal is the one who won, the one who didn't bother to win, and the one who cheated. And, and wound up committing suicide because he had cheated. That was Donald Crowhurst. And Bernard Mottessier is one who didn't bother to win, and he had really designed a basically a wonderfully low maintenance vessel, which I've seen, the Joshua.

• 25:44Speaker 03

  And Robin Ochs Johnson was just an irrepressible fixture of anything under any circumstances in a rather small wooden boat, that he wound up being the only one who finished the race. So they had completely different attitudes toward maintenance. Donald Crowhurst, the one who cheated and suicided, hated doing maintenance. He called it sailorizing. And if it was kind of unpleasant, he would reward himself with a drink after, after completing an unpleasant piece of maintenance. And pretty soon he ran out of rum and wine, and then went crazy instead.

• 26:28Sean Carroll?

  But my favorite was Mottessier, who was super good at planning ahead and had all the equipment. And when he was close to getting back to England, said, nope, I'm just going to keep going. I like this too much. I don't want to finish this race.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. And I knew Joshua and I knew Bernard Matesse a little bit. He said, I said, boy, you're both pretty fit. And he said, yeah, the idea for me is it has to be a new boat every day. It has to have everything in a perfect working condition. And he could do that because he also insisted that nothing be complicated. And so his self steering device, instead of being complex, like most people, where there's a bunch of ploys and hinges and whatnot that would operate the tiller,

• 27:28Speaker 03

  he developed a very simple device which was right on the axis of the rudder itself. And so the angle of the wind kept the angle of the rudder at a certain steady point. And if something broke it, which did, he could fix it. Whereas Robin Knox- Johnston, he lost, when he was south of Australia, lost a part of his self steering device that he couldn't replace. And from then on, he had to figure out how to have self steer just by setting the sails in certain ways on his catch.

• 28:08Speaker 03

  So, and then he had to worry about when he was sleeping below deck and if it jibed, which you can do where the sail whams over to the other side, he had to know that was happening or about to happen. And so he took from his bunk the sideboard so that when the boat was about to jibe, it would change its angle, dump him on the floor. And he would pick his bruised body up, go out on deck and reset the whole system. And that was his idea. That was, that was, that was the way he did maintenance was

• 28:49Speaker 03

  it was more important to maintain the rigging, which was becoming fragile, than maintaining his own personal bodily integrity. And so he got, you know, kind of bruised up.

• 29:00Sean Carroll?

  You have to make some choices there, but I like the idea that

• 29:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:04Sean Carroll?

  Maintenance is as much about psychology as it is about mechanics. Like, there's an attitude one has toward it, and whether or not you're willing to get into it and enjoy it and take pride in it makes a huge difference about how effective you're going to be.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  I think that you do whatever you have to do. For some people, they make it a ritual that they enjoy as a ritual, it's like praying or something. Others do it as they can do it mindlessly while they are thinking or listening to something else entirely.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  There's a book called Round the Bend I'll be writing about soon

• 29:51Speaker 03

  that is basically an air, tells in the 1920s of airlines taking shape in the Middle East. And one of the aircraft mechanics is very interested in religion, and he becomes a a kind of a sage that people come to and listen to. And he's teaching maintenance as basically a form of spiritual practice.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  And which is pretty interesting, because Arab cultures are not so good on maintenance. That's why they always lose wars in the Middle East. And there's a whole section in the print book about that.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  So a lot of these things are culture deep.

• 30:43Sean Carroll?

  Yep.

• 30:44Speaker 03

  And if your culture is making it hard for you to be a good maintainer, you've got to figure out the workarounds, maybe make it a spiritual practice, maybe ensure that the officers are involved in doing maintenance. And that way, they will respect it and take it seriously. In the US and NATO militaries, it's the non-commissioned officers that are responsible for maintenance. And basically, the sergeants train everybody in maintenance, and they're the ones responsible for making sure that maintenance happens.

• 31:20Speaker 03

  And the Russian military does not really have NCOs, a non-commissioned officer, sergeants, and most of the Arab militaries do not. And when you don't have that, maintenance doesn't get done, and then you lose the war.

• 31:37Sean Carroll?

  So in other words, in those organizations, it goes right from like high-level officers to low-level soldiers, and there's not enough people in the middle to overlap?

• 31:47Speaker 03

  They overlap, and they take responsibility, and they keep the layers respecting each other.

• 31:56Sean Carroll?

  Right.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  This is a big part of... So that every single officer in the US military has a non-commissioned officer who is with them at all times, keeping them alert to what

• 32:13Speaker 03

  the soldiers themselves need and want, and maintenance issues and all of that sort of thing. And so that keeps it from becoming a caste system, where castes, where officers look down from a great height on the troops and do not respect them, but they expect to be respected themselves because they're so high and mighty officers. That is a recipe for losing a war.

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• 33:47Sean Carroll?

  Well, this idea of spiritual practice is also appearing in another book that you quote. There, early in the book, in your book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which is one of my favorites from long ago. And extended meditation on... The motorcycle is a metaphor, obviously, right? You're fixing the motorcycle, but you're also fixing yourself. He says this very explicitly, Robert Persig, the author.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  Yes. What's interesting is, unlike many metaphors, he actually was a very good maintainer of his own bike. And it was a... He had screwed up a couple of times, and then he'd watch mechanics screw up with his motorcycle. And that was when he decided, okay, if I'm gonna get somebody reliable to take care of my motorcycle, I guess it's gonna have to be me. And he really did just immerse himself totally in becoming really skilled as a mechanic dealing with his bike.

• 34:54Speaker 03

  And then, because he was also thinking about values and philosophy, he used that as a frame for talking about his philosophy, which is interesting stuff, but not nearly as interesting as the clarity he had about maintenance itself. And so what I did was I basically skimmed all that cream out of his book about maintenance and put it in my book.

• 35:26Sean Carroll?

  Well, one of the things that he does, which you do refer to in your book, is he goes into quite a lot of detail about ways that you can lose the will to maintain your motorcycle or anything else very effectively, the gumption traps that he talks about.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  Gumption traps are wonderful. It's the sort of thing that's... You know, now the... Both words are agencies. You have agency. Can you confer agency? How are you gonna get agency in this otherwise helpless situation? And instead of saying agency, he said gumption, which is a nice kind of...

• 36:09Speaker 03

  Funky old word.

• 36:10Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  And it, and it's, um, it isn't highfalutin'. Agency's kind of highfalutin'. Gumption is, is very, uh, uh, something, uh, one of your grandparents, one of their grandparents might have talked about. Um, and a gumption trap is, is an interesting concept. That basically you get into a situation, uh, sometimes technically with the motorcycle itself, but often just inside your own mind.

• 36:41Sean Carroll?

  Hmm.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  Uh, you get frustrated and mad and, uh, cause you have the wrong theory of what the problem of your motorcycle is. Why is it, uh, uh, cutting out when I, uh, when I take it on the road, but I can't find out what's making it cut in, cut out when I'm back in the shop. And you get a wrong theory and you, you can really, uh, wind up hurting your motorcycle cause you, you start panicking and well, it must be this, it must be this, it must be this. And, uh, you go down some wrong path and, uh, you're doing harm all the way. The, one of the important things about repair is a repair is, is a trauma for the thing that you're trying to fix.

• 37:25Speaker 03

  And, uh, if you do it wrong, you can make the problem, uh, either the original problem worse or introduce some new problem. So now you've got two layers of confusion in there. So, uh, one must be delicate. And one of the things that skill maintainers talk about is if it's a problem you don't completely understand, just stop and ponder. And, uh, perspicuous especially good, you just stare at it. Just stare at it. You're, you're like a fisherman waiting for a nibble. And a nibble may well come.

• 38:01Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 03

  Uh, and if that doesn't quite do it, then just read everything. Don't boast ahead with, uh, your wrong theory, cause, uh, it's going to make things worse.

• 38:15Sean Carroll?

  So is there some unified approach to maintenance that makes sense? Is, you know, can we look at all the examples that you look at in your book and say like, okay, here's the right attitude to have or i- is it more personal? Is it more pluralistic?

• 38:32Speaker 03

  Oh, it's dependent on the situation. Uh, the system, the person, um, the tools they have at hand. Uh, one of the great things about Robin Knox Johnson, the guy who won the Golden Globe Sailboat Race, was that, uh, he could improvise solutions where, uh, nobody else could. For example, um, his charger stopped working and, uh, he went inside it and figured out, "Oh yeah, okay, uh, there's a, uh, a place where there's some grease on the system here." And, uh, grease that off and then, uh, put it back together and, "Oops, uh, I, I don't

• 39:15Speaker 03

  have a way to measure, uh, the distance, uh, that's supposed to be in the gap here." And, uh, and without that, how could he set the gap, uh, right for the spark plug, I guess, or something like that? And, uh, then he figured out, "Wait a minute, let's see, how many, uh, pages of my, uh, logbook here does it take to make an inch?" And I, uh, let's see, this is in a tiny fraction of minutes, that would be like, uh, five pages? So he used five pages as a way to, uh, figure out the gap and measure to that and then it worked again. Uh, the other time, uh, he had a solder, uh, something in, in his radio, uh, but he

• 39:59Speaker 03

  didn't have any solder on board. So he took apart a bunch of, uh, tiny extra bulbs that he had, where there was solder inside of, uh, where it, it hooked up to the filament. And, uh, he carefully melted all those together and then he had enough solder to fix the radio. Um, that's the kind of improvisation it's often called for.

• 40:25Sean Carroll?

  Am I correct that you live on a boat?

• 40:27Speaker 03

  I do, or have done. We have a 64-foot tugboat that we're finally moving off of and it's for sale. If your listeners want to get it.

• 40:41Sean Carroll?

  We'll put that out there if anyone wants a tugboat in San Francisco, but you're not out there doing circumnavigations of the globe. You're mostly at the pier.

• 40:51Speaker 03

  No, the tugboat has, she's a blue water boat and she went, she's been to Alaska and so on. But the way we refitted her, both as a home and as a working tugboat, is that we can cruise around the Bay Area in safety.

• 41:06Sean Carroll?

  Is there a lot of maintenance involved in that endeavor?

• 41:10Speaker 03

  This is a wooden boat that was built in 1912. And you can imagine that there's an enormous amount of maintenance. I can tell you that if she was in such bad shape when we got her in 1982, that the guy we paid $8,000 to to get the boat couldn't believe he got away with that much money. Because she was in terrible shape. But we brought her back up to pretty sherry condition. But, you know, wooden boats are basically made out of celery. Wood is a wonderfully adaptable medium, but it is, as we know, especially in buildings.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  Water wants to turn it into something that isn't wood and something that doesn't keep leaks away. So a lot of maintenance.

• 42:05Sean Carroll?

  Do I get the feeling, though, that it's becoming harder in the modern world for people to do routine maintenance on the gadgets that they have? I mean, a Model T you could fix, but a car that I would buy new right now, I, no one even knows what's going on there, at least the typical person in the garage.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Well, partly it's because the products are lower and lower maintenance. And so you don't have occasion, like you did with the Model T, to constantly having to redo things. You know, putting in grease, putting in oil, cleaning up this, cleaning up that. One of the interesting things is that electric cars, when they first were built

• 42:51Speaker 03

  back in the around 1900, were very low maintenance compared to the gasoline cars. And that was a major attraction, among many other things. Then gas went out because they could go longer distances and and there were oil discoveries in the US and so on. But then, once Tesla came along, once again, people realized, wow, these electrical vehicles have way, way less maintenance. And their energy efficiency is enormously high. Whereas a gasoline, internal combustion engine, as they say,

• 43:37Speaker 03

  it spends most of its energy just getting out of its own way. So that efficiency of energy and efficiency of maintenance is part of the story of progress. You see that also in the ways that we have dealt with corrosion, with rust, over the years. There's a whole story of that in my book about how, from way back, like 4,000 years ago, people have been trying to make a kind of a steel that doesn't rust. The problem with steel is that, or iron, is that the...

• 44:19Speaker 03

  When it oxidizes into rust, that's a bigger molecule than the straightforward iron or steel molecule. And so it puffs up and then falls off and exposes more. It's not protecting against future rust. So that became a big quest. And finally stainless steel was discovered with enough chromium, you can make it so that there's a oxidized layer of chromium on there that does protect the steel. You still have to be careful.

• 44:52Sean Carroll?

  Well, one thing that seemed to be a thread running through the book, and I don't even know whether this is intentional or not, but there's sort of a relationship, a tension maybe between innovation and maintenance. There's like one pull to just do things really quickly and get them to work. There's another that says, well, let's slow down. Let's make sure this is going to last a long time. Am I, am I correct in perceiving that?

• 45:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I think lots of things might as well be short-lived. And not, you know, this is a whole idea of kind of disposable containers versus something that you're going to keep going.

• 45:33Speaker 03

  The cover of the book honors the idea of kintsugi, the Japanese art of basically repairing broken pottery with a kind of a gold glue. And so it not only fixes it, but it makes it more beautiful. And you, you honor the mistake that broke it, and you honor the repair. And then you brag about it. So kintsugi is, is a way of kind of just honoring the fact that that things do break.

• 46:10Speaker 03

  But nobody actually wants things to break.

• 46:13Sean Carroll?

  Right.

• 46:13Speaker 03

  And so what is being done with scientific and engineering progress is make things that are lower and lower maintenance. But one of the things you lose in the course of that is people being skilled in maintenance. We saw this when personal computers first came along. And I happened to be in the thick of that, it turned out, in the Bay Area. And the user groups, for a good while, were carefully attended by the manufacturers because

• 46:51Speaker 03

  the users were, one, showing the problems, and two, showing the workarounds. And then the manufacturers needed to know about that. And then they could try to do a workaround way back to the manufacturing level so that particular kind of problem would not keep occurring. With software, this is much harder to do because software keeps moving, whereas hardware stays the way it is. And that is just part of the history of these things. I'm going to be going into the right to repair issues shortly because people like John Deere,

• 47:34Speaker 03

  who used to be famous for making it easy for their customers to repair their tractors, lately have made it very, very difficult and expensive and problematic for the customers to fix their high-tech tractors.

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• 48:48Sean Carroll?

  Well, actually, I was gonna ask about that, so let's get into it a little bit. Am I right that the quote "right to repair" is a movement now? There's people who stand up and say like, "It should be illegal for corporations to sell me things that I'm not allowed or can't fix."

• 49:06Speaker 03

  Right. And so, you know, Senator Elizabeth Warren is all over this, and the guys that I fix it, Kyle Weens, and others in the public world, are basically, it's a form of insistence on the owner of repair rights to, if I own it, if you sell it to me and I own it now, I've gotta be able to fix it or I don't really own it, and I should not have paid a sale price. Back in the day, Xerox was one of the first companies to sort of discover, "How about

• 49:50Speaker 03

  we continue to own the copiers that you get from us, and you lease them, but we own them? And by the way, then we can take the amortized tax write-off on it, and you can't. But we're then responsible for keeping it working." And they did that not as well as they needed to, because the early copiers were really, really flaky. They were great, and Xerox became an enormously famous and rich corporation, and then they lost it, partly because it was just mismanagement in various directions, but they mismanaged

• 50:35Speaker 03

  the technicians that were repairing people's copiers, and that's why they didn't make it.

• 50:46Sean Carroll?

  So just to be clear, you're a supporter of right-to-repair laws?

• 50:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, and it's tricky because you can see from the company's standpoint,

• 50:59Speaker 03

  if you control everything about the ongoing usage and upkeep and so on of these particular devices and you don't let non-company people fix them or the owners fix them, you get a lot more income. And often it is like car sales. The dealerships for cars, up until when Tesla came along, were making more money off of fixing their cars than off of selling them. And which also puts incentives in a funny place because then you sort of want, want them to need service.

• 51:43Speaker 03

  And so you might design them in ways that look great, but you know, after a few months, you're going to have to go into the shop. And they own the shop and they own the parts and so it goes. But it's short-term gain. This is kind of one of those incentivization issues that once you're successful enough to really sort of control a domain of stuff and customers, the temptation is to start trying to extract rents. That is basically unearned income from the system. And if that's what you're counting, and that's what the senior executives tend to do,

• 52:27Speaker 03

  totally what happened at Xerox. We want to have the least expense and the most income because we all got these tremendous bonuses. And that's what we're living for and that's what we're measuring. And that's what is more important to us than satisfied customers. Satisfied customers are necessary in the long run. So it's a short gain versus the long loyalty. That is the mix there. And it's kind of like, it's easy to forget what's fundamental,

• 53:04Speaker 03

  which is that you've got to have satisfied customers.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  And they will, they'll come and get you after a while if they're not satisfied.

• 53:17Sean Carroll?

  On the other hand, as you also point out in the book, there's a sense in which we could imagine entering a golden age of repairing things because the internet helps us find both information and parts. I love the, you know, the section on using YouTube videos to fix various things that you wouldn't otherwise have the knowledge to do.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  Well, let's try to answer the question I got a lot because I started a thing called the Holos Catalog back in the 60s that had a lot of impact. And people say, "Well, gosh, we really need that now. Why don't you do the Holos Catalog again?" And I can answer with a happy, freed grin that I don't need to do that because YouTube has done that.

• 54:06Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  And what the Holos Catalog did is it kind of conferred agency. It gave people the sense that they could just do things. And when you have a problem with whatever it is that you've got, a refrigerator, a motor, or whatever, you go online, you look up the make and model of it and year, and you will find not just the manual, but a dozen different people offering their videos of how to fix various issues, and you go straight to the issue that you're concerned with. And there's five different flavors of how to fix that issue and that model and that year of that make.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  So it's an astonishingly, I suppose democratic, but distributed

• 54:58Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  wise system that, kind of like Wikipedia, is just this thing of you have access to the world's experience in a way that's really easy. So typically it'll be like a four-minute video, and that's all you needed. And you may stop it in some particular still frame. Oh, that's how you actually get your hand into that place to open up that thing where the problem is. And it's awesome.

• 55:36Sean Carroll?

  And I was a little alarmed nevertheless that you mentioned how often surgeons use YouTube videos to check up on how to do a procedure.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  Well, hell, surgeons do and plumbers do and the pros all do. And some of the pros are making videos, so that's the other thing is you're getting not just a conveniently detailed, but often a highly skilled piece of information from a skilled person.

• 56:11Sean Carroll?

  But this system, well, I guess, sorry, let's back up. One of the things that you do talk about in the book is it's not just a machine that needs maintenance. Systems need maintenance overall, right? It's a bigger kind of picture thing. And this system of having reliable YouTube videos might be under threat from AI-generated nonsense, things like that. Now we're going to need maintenance to make sure that we're getting the right maintenance tips.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  Well, I've been predicting for years that we're going to spend most of our time arguing with robots.

• 56:47Speaker 03

  And because the robot kind of often is operating on a particular assumption of what the situation is. And if you have a slightly different situation, you've got to somehow persuade the robot or the AI that, thank you, that's a nice answer for a question I haven't asked. This is the question I'm really asking. And I think that's generally good because it forces us, arguing with robots is itself instructive. It's frustrating and often maddening, but it's a, it's part of, mostly AIs are incredibly useful.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  And when they're not useful, we are learning what to do next.

• 57:35Speaker 03

  Maybe use a different AI.

• 57:39Speaker 03

  Maybe you try to avoid having an AI look at their problem and get an actual person to look at it.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  And because there's so many social media available, any particular kind of apparatus is gonna have a online support group, a fan group. Where they're rebuilding some old, particular old car. And fifty people from all over the world are deeply engaged in rebuilding that kind of old car. And they know where to either get or create a new, the parts they need.

• 58:31Speaker 03

  Or maybe some of them have decided they're gonna get a printer and print the parts and they'll sell them to the other people in the group. And they'll encourage each other and they'll be amazed by some people that have got an incredible example of the thing that they all care about.

• 58:51Speaker 03

  And so you learn what skill looks like and what it takes to have that kind of skill. And so it goes. I think this, this aspect of the kind of old golden era we expected with the coming of the internet has actually come to pass. And some of the commercial apparatus does go toward densification. We also learn how to work around that. But by and large, anybody, anywhere has access to almost anything they need to know. Isn't that astonishing?

• 59:33Sean Carroll?

  It is. As someone who has their own podcast, I have to be overall in favor of the Internet. I think it's doing a lot of good things for a lot of good people.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  Well, you're, yeah, so you're an example of the kind of enabling that is coming from all this.

• 59:48Sean Carroll?

  Trying to give out information, yeah, trying to give out thoughts and knowledge of different sorts in ways that weren't technologically feasible before. I don't, I should have asked this earlier, but there's an example of the importance of maintenance that you could have mentioned in the book, but you didn't, which is the clock of the long now. You're also, you know, the Long Now Foundation is one of your projects, and one of their projects is building a clock that will last 10,000 years. So the physicist in me says, well, how hard can that be? But when I read about it, there's a number of issues that come up, and I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, that's actually really kind of tricky.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, and so Danny Hillis is a computer designer and computer scientist who I got to know when I was at the Media Lab at MIT back in the 80s. And he was noticing as we got into the 1990s that people talk about the future is the year 2000. And he said, they've been talking about the future is the year 2000 my whole life, and it's been getting shuttered by one year per year. What can I do to pop people through these membranes of when we think the future is?

• 1:01:09Speaker 03

  And Danny's the guy who invents things and builds things. He built a computer out of fishing line and tic-tac-toe.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Anyway, out of wooden pieces, the computer museum, this was a machine that could beat you with tic-tac-toe.

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, tic-tac-toe with string and wood.

• 1:01:38Speaker 03

  So he wanted to build a physical thing of the scale of Stonehenge that would be a mechanical device that would keep accurate time for 10,000 years. So it's not such a thing that lasts 10,000 years. It doesn't stop ticking for 10,000 years. And all that time is telling accurate time. So it's been built. It's in a mountain in Texas and will be visible by the public sometime in the next probably 10 years. So they had to invent, he and the team that he built around it, had to invent various

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  things that you couldn't use any kind of lubrication because that becomes a source of a problem over time. So they, all of the places where there was friction, they ended up using ceramic surfaces. And it's a skeleton clock, so you can see if anything goes wrong, you see exactly where it's gone wrong. And there's a mountain of spare parts, often a separate part of the cave. This is a 300-foot-high thing inside a mountain.

• 1:02:57Speaker 03

  And it resets itself to a perfectly accurate time at noon, solar noon, typically once a year, but it can do it more often. And that's done through a lens that lets in a ray of sunlight at the moment of noon. And if the clock, which is operating off a pendulum, which is operating off of energy provided by a bladder of air that shrinks and expands because of temperature differences day and night, that pendulum has kept going.

• 1:03:41Speaker 03

  But it can eventually lose a few seconds one way or the other. And then this ray of light comes in at perfect noon and resets the whole apparatus to perfect noon. And there's a procession of the equinoxes that occurs over the next 10,000 years. And that also is accounted for and managed by a cam that changes the set point exactly the rate of the procession of the equinoxes. And so it turns out you can build a clock.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  That will keep ticking for at least 10,000 years, or maybe probably more. If people are interested. There's a certain amount about people, very, very little. It can be forgotten underground for centuries, and it'll be just fine.

• 1:04:36Sean Carroll?

  Well, that was what I wanted to get to. The idea would be you're allowed to do maintenance on it. There are spare parts. That's not part of the rulebook, but you don't have to. You're trying to make it as reliable as you can.

• 1:04:47Speaker 03

  Yep, and that's for us to be. There's ways, as you know, to, the engineers to run a system as if it's for a very long time. You just run it fast. And they've done that. And so these, the systems that are built into it are very, very, very robust.

• 1:05:12Sean Carroll?

  And we just have to worry that future generations don't go in there and break it for fun, or cannibalize it for spare parts?

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  Right. And, which has happened with lots of things in the past, and could happen with this, but it's hard to get to. It is pretty sequestered inside a mountain, inside airlocks and things like that. One would like that it be not like Stonehenge or the pyramids where whatever the original spiritual reasons for are, have gone away, and be more likely, you say shrine in Japan, which is, you know, the beating heart of

• 1:06:00Speaker 03

  Shintoism for the Japanese. And the people, they rebuild this wooden temple every 20 years and have done for a couple thousand years now, more than 1,000, less than 2,000. And they rebuild it perfectly, exactly like it was before. And the people that are doing it are espousing the Shinto frame of thinking about the world, exactly the way it was done before. And so it'd be nice if our 10,000 year clock has a set of people who

• 1:06:43Speaker 03

  Are continuous along with the clock. And know about its history, know about its reasons for being. What is its reasons for being? You know, we have a Statue of Liberty. How about a Statue of Continuity? And that's what this thing is.

• 1:07:04Sean Carroll?

  Do you know of any other projects for machines or artifacts or things that are supposed to hopefully keep moving for that length of time?

• 1:07:14Speaker 03

  It's become kind of a genre of land art, which in a sense our clock is. It also happens that Long Island Foundation owns the only privately owned grove of bristlecone pine trees up on top of a mountain in eastern Nevada. And one artist has gone up there and is figuring out, has figured out a way to measure bristlecone pine, bristlecone pine time, different from clock time, and that it changes from year to year.

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  He's measuring it basically by the growth characteristics of the bristlecones. And so this is an exhibit in Reno, Nevada, at an art school there, showing bristlecone pine time for the next, maybe 10,000 years.

• 1:08:14Sean Carroll?

  All right, that's good. Yeah, maybe we'll figure out how to do maintenance on human beings to make them last that long eventually. I'm not, I'm not sure.

• 1:08:23Speaker 03

  Well, sure, a lot of people working on that. My goodness. You and I will probably die of old age, but I certainly will.

• 1:08:36Speaker 03

  That may become optional. I mean, there's a lot of people who want it to be optional.

• 1:08:41Sean Carroll?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:41Speaker 03

  Either through downloading our mental capabilities and experience into something not so edible.

• 1:08:52Sean Carroll?

  Well, it's a tough area to have discussions about because there are respectable scientists who are thinking about longevity and things like that. But there's also a lot of somewhat flaky people out there who will sell you a line of goods if you're not too careful.

• 1:09:07Speaker 03

  And we've had those flaky people forever, offering that kind of stuff, some of them the guys of religion. But we're also having some non-flaky people. That's what's different.

• 1:09:22Sean Carroll?

  So let me just ask you, maybe as one of the final topics here, what are we ignoring in terms of maintenance? Like, you know, like you say, we have this idea of infrastructure. We have all sorts of these technological systems that we're now pretty dependent on, whether it's the power grid or the internet or whatever. Having thought about maintenance now for an extended period of time, is there something you're just shaking your head in disbelief that we're not doing maintenance-wise?

• 1:09:50Speaker 03

  Part of the argument that this book is putting forward is humanity has gotten to the point of terraforming Earth. We have planetary-scale impacts, and that's been going on actually for quite a while. But we now have, thanks to science, full awareness of it, full awareness of what the impacts largely are, and with climate change, a major and for us, quite dangerous potential effect. So...

• 1:10:30Speaker 03

  Maintaining the planetary biosphere system, and by the way civilization, which is now global. It used to be various civilizations came and went. And there was always some other civilization. You know, when Rome went down, actually it was just the Western Roman Empire, the Eastern Roman Empire went on for another thousand years. And then China was always up to something for a long time. And so civilizations come and go, but there's never been a time when we haven't had civilization actually going forward.

• 1:11:12Speaker 03

  In the last eight thousand years, at least, ten maybe. So now that we have a global civilization, here's the question, Sean. We don't have a backup. Of course Elon wants to go to Mars, so we have a backup there. But we sure don't have it yet. So with the global civilization, we know backup. Does that mean it's extra fragile? Or extra robust? Extra resilient? And I'm pretty sure it's extra resilient. Partly because so many parts of the civilization are quite different from each other.

• 1:11:55Speaker 03

  And one may go down and the rest of the world shrugs because they went down for their own good, bad reasons. The others can go along and everybody can learn from each other's mistakes. Previous civilizations went down, didn't know about previous civilizations that had gone down. So they didn't know they were fragile. This is like when the passenger pigeon went extinct. It was the first continental animal of great abundance to go exchange. And basically, the extinction of the passenger pigeons was what made Teddy Roosevelt

• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  and others realize that they were about to lose the bison, the American bison, the buffalo. And so, the death of the passenger pigeons arranged for the survival and revival of the buffalo. That's the kind of knowledge that this global civilization has, that it has fragilities, but that we are in the process of learning what it takes to maintain a global civilization. We don't know exactly how to do that yet. We've only had it for a while.

• 1:13:18Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:13:19Speaker 03

  We've only thought about it for a while. We've only had parts of it suffer badly. And so, we're still learning what it means to have that in mind. But one of the quotes I wound up using was from Pete Seeger when he was 85. And you may remember, he was involved in a Hudson River sloop that they built to sort of go up and down the Hudson River, busting industrial waste where it was coming out.

• 1:13:58Speaker 03

  And basically, the hippies that built it lost track of taking care of it, maintaining it, foot and boat, very traditional gaff ridge and all that. And Pete Seeger saw that and he said, considering they had to raise hundreds of thousands to completely refit the boat, basically rebuild it and get it back on the river in working condition. And Pete Seeger, who was behind all of this, said, "You have to consider, one of the major arcs of civilization is maintenance." And that is, I think, an emergent perspective that will help us get through these...

• 1:14:50Speaker 03

  Turbulences that occur politically and militarily and so on is that maintenance is profoundly, is more essential than any of these other things that are flipping it around. And so I think it will be honored increasingly and engaged in a widely understood way. In Pinker's terms, that everybody will not only know, but know how all of the maintenance

• 1:15:32Speaker 03

  of the issues and systems that we care about can go forward. And that can become a civilizational habit, more knowledgeably held in mind than we have done before.

• 1:15:48Sean Carroll?

  You know, I always like to wind up the podcast on an optimistic note, and I think that you've just given us a wonderfully optimistic note, so I'm not going to press my luck and ask any more questions. Stuart Brand, thanks so much for being a guest on the Mindscape Podcast.

• 1:16:02Speaker 03

  Thank you, Sean.

• 1:16:57Speaker 05

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