Ibogaine: A Miracle Psychedelic?

Ibogaine. Fans say this psychedelic is a game changer for treating a bunch of mental health conditions — that even a single trip to your friendly ibogaine clinic could cure you of lifelong struggles with addiction. And recently President Trump signed an executive order fast-tracking research into this psychedelic drug. But how well does it really work? And is it safe?? To find out, we talk to clinical psychologist Dr. Alan Davis and psychiatrist Prof. Paul Glue. Some resources for help with substance use and domestic violence: Substance use and mental health concerns (U. S.): SAMHSA National Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357) National Domestic Violence Hotline (U. S.): 800.799.7233 or www.thehotline.org Find international resources and more at spotify.com/resources Find our transcript here: https://tinyurl.com/ScienceVsIbogaine In this episode, we cover: (00:00) The hot new psychedelic on the block (07:25) Can ibogaine help with opioid addiction? (18:31) How does ibogaine help people? (20:50) How long do the benefits last? (26:10) What are the risks? (29:31) Is there a safe dose that can help people? This episode was produced by Meryl Horn with help from Rose Rimler, Ekedi Fausther-Keeys, Michelle Dang and Wendy Zukerman. We’re edited by Blythe Terrell. Wendy Zukerman is the executive producer. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wylie, Emma Munger and Peter Leonard. Thanks to the researchers we spoke to about this, including Dr. Rafael Santos, and a special thanks to those who talked to us about their ibogaine experiences. Science Vs is a Spotify Studios Original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Wendy Zukerman?

  Hi, I'm Wendy Zukerman and this is Science Versus,

• 0:05Wendy Zukerman?

  the show that pits facts against fast-track drugs.

• 0:14Wendy Zukerman?

  Today, we are talking about ibogaine. And before we dive in, this episode discusses substance abuse and also mentions interpersonal abuse. So please take care while you're listening and we're going to put some resources in our show notes. Okay, so ibogaine, it's the latest psychedelic drug to hit the headlines. The Trump administration is very excited about it because people are saying that it could be groundbreaking for mental health and that ibogaine could cure things like opioid addiction or PTSD, which got senior producer Meryl Hawn, PhD, very curious about this. Hello, Meryl.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Hey Wendy. Yeah, I wanted to see what this was all about. And so, yeah, I started looking into ibogaine. Wendy, have you tried ibogaine?

• 1:03Wendy Zukerman?

  I have not tried ibogaine. I mean, it's real, it's funny when a new psychedelic hits the headlines, right? We've had so many and ibogaine kind of felt like it came out of nowhere.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  That's what it felt like to me. But then, as soon as I started getting into it, I realized, oh, there's like a whole kind of underground community of people who are very into this drug. And so I immediately kind of wanted to talk to people who have actually tried this, to see what it actually feels like.

• 1:34Wendy Zukerman?

  Great.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  So meet Rets Chapman. He's from Arkansas and he's, he's always been a daredevil.

• 1:41Speaker 02

  I was always an adrenaline junkie my whole life. I really did anything with a board, snowboard, skateboard, longboard, wakeboard.

• 1:50Wendy Zukerman?

  Not chessboard, though.

• 1:53Speaker 01

  He didn't mention.

• 1:54Wendy Zukerman?

  Okay.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  But yeah, so one day about 15 years ago, he was hill bombing in the Ozark Mountains, which is basically longboarding, super fast, down a steep hill. And he crashes.

• 2:08Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, gosh.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Pretty sure like a rock or a pebble got into my ball bearing and just, just... Messed everything up and I got all wobbly and yeah, I just ate the pavement.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  So after that crash, he gets taken to a hospital and eventually he needs surgery, like a spinal fusion.

• 2:26Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  And the recovery from that was hard. He gets prescribed painkillers. But then he gets hooked on opioids and then over the next several years, things kind of ratchet up. He eventually starts using fentanyl.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Once I was on that, I really couldn't do anything. I couldn't get out of bed without, you know, doing a little line.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  And he said the withdrawal was super rough. There is physical stuff, puking, cold sweats.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  But it was the psychological part that got me the most. Just, I was never content. Yeah, it was just always chasing something to get out of that negative feeling that I had.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  It was about a year ago, he told me he was in this really terrible place.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  My life had completely become unmanageable. You know, my family, they didn't trust me. My friends didn't want to hang out with me. I was hanging on to my relationship with my girlfriend by a thread. And it was at that point where I was like, all right, it's time to try something.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  And that something was Ibogaine. So, Russ had heard about Ibogaine, you know, that it could do amazing things for people struggling with addiction.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  I was intrigued. I mean, from what I had researched, it was almost like it was too good to be true.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  So he decided to give it a try.

• 3:53Wendy Zukerman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  He went to a clinic in Mexico outside Tijuana.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  It overlooked the Pacific Ocean. There was a big statue of Jesus with his arms held out wide overlooking the ocean. So that was, that was nice, reassuring.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  Okay, so he gets taken to this room. He lays down and he is given these capsules with like white powder inside. And then he is given some eye shades and lays down.

• 4:27Wendy Zukerman?

  Down the gullet.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. So here's what happened.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  It was all kind of coming on. And the first thing I noticed was a loud buzzing noise, kind of like in my ears. I would see visions that didn't really make sense. Kind of just like dolphins walking on land and elephants with wings. And just really off the wall things. It was very comparable to an intense dream.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Then things start getting a little more intense.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  It was almost like, like visions and downloads of my life. Going through my peripheral vision. And I could almost like drive the experience. Like I could kind of take control and I would see one, one vision. And when I was done with that, I would be like, okay, now let's, take me to the next one. Like a movie reel of memories going through my vision.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  And was it like a normal memory?

• 5:31Speaker 02

  Oh, no. It was memories that I deeply tucked under the rug my whole life.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  And once I hit about the eight hour mark, that's when it really got intense. And that's when I started vomiting and got real nauseous and was honestly wanting it to end.

• 5:55Wendy Zukerman?

  Hmm. So when does it end?

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Okay, so Ibogaine trips can be long. That intense phase could last up to 20 hours.

• 6:04Wendy Zukerman?

  Whoa.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. And this is the drug that Trump seems to be pumped about. Joe Rogan, who's sort of an Ibogaine super fan, talked about all this at a big event at the Oval Office. He told this story about how he and Trump were texting. And after Rogan told Trump how great Ibogaine is.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  I sent him that information. The text message came back, "Sounds great. Do you want FDA approval? Let's do it." Literally that quick.

• 6:35Wendy Zukerman?

  No. Was it really that quick?

• 6:39Speaker 01

  So, I mean, it's not FDA approved yet, but a month ago, Trump signed an executive order fast-tracking research into Ibergain and other psychedelics because of the potential they show for treating serious mental illness. So today on the show, what do we know about this drug? Something like 16 million people worldwide struggle with opioid addiction and even more people will have PTSD at some point in their lives. Could Ibergain be the solution? And we'll find out if it helps rats, coming up.

• 7:27Wendy Zukerman?

  Welcome back. Today, we're looking into Ibergain. And leading us through this trip of the science is senior producer Merrill Hawn.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Hi, Wendy.

• 7:36Wendy Zukerman?

  Hello. So Ibergain, can you tell me more about this drug?

• 7:42Speaker 01

  So Ibergain is a chemical that comes from the root of the iboga plants, which is native to Western Africa. The plant is interesting. It kind of has these like orange fruit.

• 7:53Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, yeah. I'm looking at a picture of it. It's beautiful. And the roots are gorgeous as well. So that's where the Ibergain comes from.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, and it's been used by people there for a long time in indigenous medicine, by people who practice the Bwiti religion. And so, for example, it's taken during an initiation ritual that happens around the time someone becomes a teenager.

• 8:20Wendy Zukerman?

  Mm hmm. And do we know how it creates a trip? Like what it's doing in your brain?

• 8:25Speaker 01

  So the way all psychedelic drugs work is by latching on to proteins in your brain. And that changes the way that neurons will communicate with each other. So maybe some parts of your brain will like relax a little and maybe other parts of your brain will kind of start talking to each other that don't normally talk so much. So like for psilocybin, the thing that's in magic mushrooms, we see tons of changes in activity all over the brain. And so presumably Ibogaine works in a similar way, since it also makes us hallucinate.

• 8:56Wendy Zukerman?

  Uh huh.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  But scientists are still working out the details for Ibogaine, like what brain regions or neurotransmitters are involved.

• 9:03Wendy Zukerman?

  Uh huh. Okay, so we don't know what it's doing in our brain, but clearly it's doing a lot.

• 9:10Speaker 01

  We know it's doing something.

• 9:11Wendy Zukerman?

  We know it's doing something.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  We just don't know exactly how.

• 9:14Wendy Zukerman?

  Right. And then, so, but there are a lot of drugs out there that we don't know the complete mechanism of how they work.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:21Wendy Zukerman?

  So one of the big claims is around opioid addiction, like Rhett's story.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 9:29Wendy Zukerman?

  Do we have any data here on whether it helps people?

• 9:32Speaker 01

  We do, yeah. So let's talk to Alan Davis. He's an associate professor at the Ohio State University. We've talked about psychedelics with Alan before. Nice to talk to you again. It's been like seven years.

• 9:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, gosh, has it been that long?

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I interviewed you first in 2019.

• 9:49Speaker 04

  And somehow that feels like 10,000 years ago.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  It does, it really does.

• 9:55Wendy Zukerman?

  Aw, Alan.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  We first talked to Alan about psilocybin. He's also done research on DMT. So I wanted to check his temperature about Ibogaine. If all psychedelics were superheroes, would Ibogaine be more like Captain America or someone kind of darker, like Wolverine?

• 10:17Speaker 04

  Certainly on the darker side. You know, these are, the experiences that Ibogaine brings about in people are typically referred to and discussed as very challenging and difficult experiences. I almost, you know, in fact, when you started to bring up the metaphor of superhero, actually, the first person that came to my mind was Loki.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Wait, I'm sorry, I'm not a big enough nerd who is that?

• 10:41Speaker 04

  Well, Loki is actually more of like a villain.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  In the superhero universe. But the reason that comes to my mind is because it is a rather, you know, it can be a rather dark experience for people.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  And for Rhett, he did have a hard trip. He said that all these traumatic memories came up, like this time in his life when he was getting abused, actually.

• 11:04Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, gosh.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  And that's not uncommon to relive the darkest periods of your life while you're on Ibogaine. But still, all the things that Alan heard did make him curious about this drug because he started meeting people at conferences, so this was back in 2013, who had taken Ibogaine for addiction and they were telling him that it really helped them. So Alan figured like, okay, let's study this because he was on the hunt for something that could really help people struggling with opioid addiction.

• 11:37Wendy Zukerman?

  Mm hmm. So what did he do?

• 11:38Speaker 01

  So he like went out and found a clinic, an Ibogaine clinic in Mexico, that was willing to team up with him and do a study on Ibogaine together.

• 11:47Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, was it the same one that Rets went to?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  No, it was in Tijuana, but it was a different clinic. This one had been around for a while. It was one of the first clinics to treat people for addiction with Ibogaine. And the clinic kept all this contact information of the people who had gone there.

• 12:04Wendy Zukerman?

  Uh huh.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  So it was kind of perfect because then Alan and his team could get in touch with them and get them to fill out a survey about what happened.

• 12:11Wendy Zukerman?

  Right. So what happened?

• 12:14Speaker 01

  Well, so they got 88 people to do the survey. Here's what he found.

• 12:19Speaker 04

  Well, people report that it has a pretty profound impact on their craving and their withdrawal symptoms. And so 80% of the people in our study said that there was a large decrease in those components of their detoxification.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  80% of them said that it was like way better or gone.

• 12:38Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, that it was, it was much better or eliminated completely.

• 12:42Wendy Zukerman?

  Wow. How many people did they reach out to? So 88 folks responded to the survey, but I'm wondering.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  Hmm, if it was like just finding the people where it worked.

• 12:56Wendy Zukerman?

  Yeah, yeah, just because with surveys like this, if you have an opioid addiction and you go to a clinic in Tijuana and you try this drug and it doesn't work for you and two years later, some researchers contact you and say, how was that?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:12Wendy Zukerman?

  I feel like if it didn't work for me, I'd go.

• 13:14Speaker 01

  F you.

• 13:15Wendy Zukerman?

  Right. I don't want to spend more time on this. It didn't work. Exactly.

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Okay, so in this study, they reached out to 285 people and only 88 of them got back. So yeah, valid concern. But there have been other studies too that didn't seem to have this issue to me. Like, there is a study that got all the charts from a bunch of people who went to an ibogaine clinic and looked at how well it worked for them. There are also studies that follow people along as they try ibogaine for opioid addiction. So yeah, I found five of these studies altogether, including Alan's. And they all found similarly impressive results. Most people said that ibogaine really helps their withdrawal symptoms after taking it.

• 14:01Wendy Zukerman?

  Uh huh. Wow.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  So this seems like a real effects.

• 14:04Wendy Zukerman?

  Okay, okay.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Um, I, I asked Alan about what he thought at the time when he saw his results.

• 14:10Speaker 04

  Well, it was pretty profound, you know, at the time to, to see that, you know, so many people had said that there was this huge impact on their functioning, really quite immediately. You know, especially coming from where I came from with my, you know, experience in substance use treatment and, and, and trying to help people in that space.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  So had you ever seen anything that worked that well to just like bam?

• 14:34Speaker 04

  No.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 14:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:39Wendy Zukerman?

  And what happened to Rets?

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, let's go back to Rets's story. So even though he said that, you know, his trip was like extremely hard to like revisit these traumatic things that happened to him, doing all that, it did kind of change the way that he looked at that period of his life and the person who abused him.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  After this experience, after revisiting that memory, I kind of forgave myself and that person to where there was no more shame and guilt attached to that, to that memory.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, after this was all over, he said he felt really good.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  I came out of there just so happy and I would, I felt like I wouldn't want to trade my life with anyone else's.

• 15:25Wendy Zukerman?

  Wow. But then what happened with his opioid addiction?

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I asked him. And so what happened to your, the like cravings and the withdrawal symptoms and all, and all of that?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it all dissipated, like it was nonexistent. It was just magical.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  They were just gone? Like, you just didn't want to do opiates anymore?

• 15:46Speaker 02

  I didn't want to do anything. Like, Advil repulsed me. Like, anything that I put in my body, like,

• 15:54Speaker 02

  I was just totally cool with just living life on life's terms.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  And I did talk to one other person who tried Ibogaine to break an addiction, Holly. So, leading up to it, she had an abusive partner. And she started using opioids kind of casually at first. And then one of her kids got diagnosed with muscular dystrophy. He would end up dying from it.

• 16:22Wendy Zukerman?

  Gosh.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  And it was during his illness that Holly really found herself needing drugs to cope.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  It's the worst kind of pain. And it was a, it is a pain I couldn't escape. And I really think that's what kind of kept me in my cycle, that where I had to kind of stay numb to function.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  This went on for years. And, you know, ultimately, she found a new and supportive partner, but she was still struggling with drugs. So she gave Ibogaine a go. And it was also a hard experience for her. She kind of felt like she was confronting the darkest parts of herself. But then going through that really changed something in her. So what was it like coming out of this experience?

• 17:12Speaker 05

  Yeah. So if, if the experience itself is like going down to the depths of your shadow self, coming out on the other side is like shooting to the top of your best self. That's how I felt. I came out of it like, okay, I'm here. I'm not in danger. I'm not that little girl anymore. I'm not that battered wife. I can, I can feel the pain and process it and let it move through me. And I can be okay, I can come out on the other side, okay, and better off.

• 17:47Wendy Zukerman?

  Wow.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  And, yeah, I also asked Holly, so what happened to your withdrawal symptoms and cravings after the Ibogaine?

• 17:56Speaker 05

  Gone. No interest. I had no memory of what it felt like to be high. There was no, it's like, I had a memory of doing it and struggling with it, of course. I remembered everything, but I had no, I guess you could, like, the analogy would be like muscle memory for it. It did not feel natural to want to go pick it up. I had an aversion.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Your face almost looked like you were disgusted, even thinking about it.

• 18:27Speaker 05

  Disgusted. That's how I felt, like, ew, that's not for me.

• 18:32Wendy Zukerman?

  That's an incredible story, right? I mean, so we don't know what ibogaine is doing in the brain, but do we have any sense of why it might be having this effect on people?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Well, we actually do know more about how it might be helping people. Like, we, we know more about that than how it just makes us trip.

• 18:52Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, okay.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Um, so basically, it could be encouraging neuroplasticity. And scientists think that maybe because the trip is so long, it could be opening up this, like, big window where the brain can remake itself. And we have animal studies backing that up. So researchers have found that injecting ibogaine into rats can lead to the release of growth factors, proteins that, like, encourage neurons to make new connections. And they found that that was happening in parts of the brain that are rewired during addiction, like the reward centers of the brain.

• 19:28Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, cool.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  And we don't have a lot of research on humans yet, but I did find a study on this in veterans with traumatic brain injuries. So scientists gave them ibogaine and looked at what sorts of brain changes happens. And they found that after the vets got ibogaine, parts of their brains were thicker. So like, just like the RAS studies, they think it might be like enhancing neuroplasticity.

• 19:53Wendy Zukerman?

  Wow. And so there's something about addiction where your brain is wiring in this way that's really not good for you, that's creating this need for the drug more and more. And by shaking it up, by encouraging new pathways to form, you're really loosening up those neural connections.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, you know, we've been talking a lot about addiction, but there is also promising research on PTSD and anxiety, too, showing that it might help there for veterans.

• 20:24Wendy Zukerman?

  Which you could also imagine if with ruminating thoughts and around PTSD and...

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and like revisiting traumatic memories, you know? Maybe it's opening up this like period for like rewiring around those memories.

• 20:40Wendy Zukerman?

  Yes.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  But, you know, a lot of what we have right now, all these studies are looking at the short-term benefits, like right after people take this big dose of Ibogaine.

• 20:50Wendy Zukerman?

  Hmm. Yeah. So what happens over time? Does your brain go back to what it was before? Or is this rewiring permanent?

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Well, so that's, that's the big question, right? So there actually were a bunch of studies, like Alan's, finding these like amazing short-term like results.

• 21:09Wendy Zukerman?

  Yeah.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  And that's kind of why Alan actually was doing his study was he wanted to see how long that lasted. And, you know, the study that he was doing was actually like sometimes years after people had their trips. So he, he asked them, okay, when you first took it, how did you feel? And that's where we got that 80% figure from.

• 21:29Wendy Zukerman?

  Okay.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  But then he was also asking, how do you feel now? You know, one or two years later? Are you, are you still off opioids? And so I asked him what he found. How well did it work to like help people to stay off opioids?

• 21:44Speaker 04

  Well, you know, the main finding was that about 30% of people were still completely abstinent from opioids up to two years later.

• 21:51Wendy Zukerman?

  30% of the 88?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, 30% of the whole group said that they never had opioids again.

• 21:59Wendy Zukerman?

  Hmm.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Was it a little bit of a letdown?

• 22:03Speaker 04

  You know, I don't think it was a letdown necessarily, but I think what it did for me is it really further solidified the point that, you know, this is not going to be a magic bullet for people.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  So Alan wasn't actually that surprised at this figure since, you know, after people go to these clinics, they still have to go home to their normal environments. And so in light of that, he was like, it's actually pretty impressive that it worked for 30% of people.

• 22:30Wendy Zukerman?

  Yeah.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  And Alan said that even with that 70% of people who had gone back to using opioids, a bunch of them were using less than they had used before the ibogaine.

• 22:39Speaker 04

  It's kind of amazing, right? It's kind of amazing that that was possible.

• 22:44Wendy Zukerman?

  And what about Rets and Holly? How are they doing now?

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I asked them how things went for them longer term, and they both said that the cravings did eventually come back.

• 22:56Wendy Zukerman?

  Hmm.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  Like, I don't want to say that I felt the ibogaine wear off, but physiologically, I almost did to the point to where like my body knew. And it just, it required me to really take action and, you know, start talking to my therapist more and start putting in the work. Because like they say, ibogaine will open the door for you, but you still have to walk through it.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  So now it's been about a year and Rets has managed to stay off opioids since he first went to that clinic.

• 23:32Wendy Zukerman?

  Amazing.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  And with Holly, I asked her how long the ibogaine worked.

• 23:36Speaker 05

  Months and then it started to, and I relapsed. And that was the first little wake up call, like, yeah, you knew this. You knew it wasn't going to last. It's not a magic bullet. That really taught me that, okay, I need to be prepared to maintain my recovery.

• 23:55Wendy Zukerman?

  Hmm, what does that look like?

• 23:57Speaker 01

  So actually, both Rets and Holly still, as part of their recovery, do Ibogaine regularly. They both take smaller doses, what Holly calls tune-ups. She does them maybe once a year.

• 24:10Speaker 05

  It is working. I'm sick of doing Ibogaine.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you wish you didn't have to do the tune-ups.

• 24:17Speaker 05

  I hate it. Like, I don't hate, that's true. I don't hate Ibogaine. I'm so grateful. I am so grateful.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  No, but what is it about needing to do it every once in a while? That is like...

• 24:29Speaker 05

  Because it makes me physically sick. I throw up every time. So now, my husband has to put the powder in the capsules because just even looking at it makes me, even thought about a pill, a capsule, I would get nauseous.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 24:45Speaker 05

  I've had the worst sickness on Ibogaine.

• 24:48Wendy Zukerman?

  So these tune-ups, this kind of microdosing Ibogaine, is there any science on whether that helps?

• 24:57Speaker 01

  I haven't seen any research on that, no. But you know, for Holly and Rets, they say it definitely helps. And you know, it almost gives them a similar sort of therapy as that original, the bigger dose. It's like, gives them a shorter version of that same experience.

• 25:15Wendy Zukerman?

  Uh huh, interesting. I mean, these experiences that people are having, I can understand where the excitement around this drug is coming from. And also some promising research, right? But now that I think about it, Meryl, none of those studies you talked about had a placebo control, right?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  No, they didn't.

• 25:39Wendy Zukerman?

  It was just, they followed people who had tried Ibogaine. So do we have any clinical trials comparing, comparing it to a placebo?

• 25:49Speaker 01

  We actually do.

• 25:50Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's what I'll tell you about after the break. Plus, is it safe?

• 25:56Wendy Zukerman?

  Hmm, what are the risks here? Coming up.

• 26:10Wendy Zukerman?

  Welcome back. Today, we are looking at the latest psychedelic wonder drug, ibogaine. And Meryl, you've promised to give us a clinical trial, some real hardcore research we can sink our teeth into.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah, so let me tell you a story, actually, because there was supposed to be a clinical trial back in the 90s that the NIH was gonna do on ibogaine, specifically NIDA, the part of the NIH that does drug addiction research. And, you know, it got started. They'd even given ibogaine to some patients. But then the trial was stopped.

• 26:51Wendy Zukerman?

  Why?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Well, ibogaine can kill you.

• 26:55Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, gosh. Some of the people died in the study?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Not in that trial, but they had heard about a death that happened in the Netherlands from ibogaine. And that seemed to spook the people running the trial, so they pulled the plug on it.

• 27:09Wendy Zukerman?

  How do you die from ibogaine?

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, we know ibogaine, of course, goes to the brain, and that's why you trip, but it also goes to the heart. And that's where it can cause trouble. So in particular, there is a little channel in the heart that lets ions go through it, potassium specifically. And when ibogaine gets into the body, even at pretty low levels, it latches on to this channel like a magnet, which is really bad, because this channel is really important for making your heart pump blood properly.

• 27:44Wendy Zukerman?

  Mm hmm. So you get basically a heart attack?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Sort of. It's technically an arrhythmia.

• 27:50Wendy Zukerman?

  Uh huh.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Paul Glue, a professor at the University of Otago in New Zealand, is the one who explained this to me, what this can all lead to when things really go south.

• 28:00Speaker 06

  You're getting much less blood sent around the body. And there's a risk that your heart will just stop. Then unless you've got somebody sitting right next to you with some epinephrine and a set of paddles, you are officially dead.

• 28:16Wendy Zukerman?

  And ibogaine can do this? Or does, we know for sure, if you get high enough doses of ibogaine, you have a very high chance of dying this way?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  We don't know how likely it is that you'll die from taking ibogaine. Like, yes, we have documented deaths from people taking ibogaine because of this, this thing that happens with the heart. Researchers have been kind of collecting case studies here and there to try to figure out how often it's, it's happening. So you can kind of add up all these documented deaths.

• 28:50Wendy Zukerman?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:51Speaker 06

  There probably are somewhere between 30 and 40 deaths.

• 28:54Wendy Zukerman?

  That's not per year. That's when you search the literature for case studies of anyone dying from ibogaine over decades.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, since we've been researching this. Yeah, yeah.

• 29:08Wendy Zukerman?

  And this is in the West? Or this includes people dying in West Africa as well?

• 29:15Speaker 01

  It's both. So there have been a couple of documented deaths from people taking it in West Africa. And this is generally a known possibility among people who practice brezzi and take ibogas during rituals, though it is rare. And so Paul wanted to know, like, can, can we get around this? Can we get the benefits of ibogaine without this risk? Like, is there a dose we can give that's safe?

• 29:40Wendy Zukerman?

  Right.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  So he did a study. He's the one who did this, you know, placebo-controlled randomized clinical trial.

• 29:47Wendy Zukerman?

  Okay, so what did he do?

• 29:48Speaker 01

  So he teamed up with a pharma company that was interested in making this drug. They actually used a slightly different version of the chemical, ibogaine itself. You know, no drug company is interested in making that into a drug because it can't be patented, since a researcher did that like years ago already, sort of like a pharma cockblock. So Paul's team just tweaked it slightly and made something else called noribogaine, which is what your body turns ibogaine into as it breaks down the chemical.

• 30:20Wendy Zukerman?

  Mm hmm.

• 30:21Speaker 06

  But, but in general, noribogaine should do exactly what ibogaine does.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so they got their nor ibogaine, they recruited 27 people who were addicted to opioids and they were on methadone, which they weaned off before they started the trial. And they brought them into a hospital. So imagine a big room with a bunch of beds.

• 30:44Speaker 06

  We had a lot of staff on board, so it was a very busy ward. And then gave them either nor ibogaine or placebo. And we waited to see how quickly they went into opiate withdrawal.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  And it was really easy for them to do this because there are these telltale signs that someone's gone into withdrawal.

• 31:04Wendy Zukerman?

  Mm hmm.

• 31:05Speaker 06

  The pupils start to dilate, they get the sniffles, they get goose pimples all over their arms, their blood pressure goes up, their heart rate goes up. And there are these great scales where you can show how bad the withdrawal is by just sort of totting up all these symptoms and getting a score on them.

• 31:26Wendy Zukerman?

  Okay, so what we've got here, they got a bunch of people who were dependent on opioids, brought them into the hospital, gave half this, I can't believe it's not ibogaine.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  The placebo, you mean?

• 31:43Wendy Zukerman?

  No, the nor ibogaine or whatever, you know, I can't believe it's not butter.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 31:48Wendy Zukerman?

  Right. And the other half got a placebo and now Paul is waiting for pupils to dilate, goose pimples to show up, signs of withdrawal.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Basically, except they also try a bunch of different doses because they're trying to look for, okay, like as they're also monitoring their hearts, how high up can we go before we start to see like bad things start to happen to the heart? So now he can check, okay, at the highest dose they could give was safe, what happens to the withdrawal symptoms?

• 32:19Wendy Zukerman?

  Got it.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  And so he tried these different doses and he could see this heart problem getting worse and worse, the higher and higher the dose they gave.

• 32:28Wendy Zukerman?

  Right.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  And so they had to stop at a pretty low dose. And he checked to see, did it help? Did people's withdrawal symptoms like get any better compared to the placebo? And...

• 32:41Speaker 06

  There was no difference between placebo and nor ibogaine.

• 32:46Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, so based on this study, even at fairly low doses?

• 32:54Wendy Zukerman?

  Doses that we don't think, based on the limited information we have, would help with your opioid addiction, you still get evidence of heart problems.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:06Wendy Zukerman?

  The beginnings of what could become heart failure.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  And Paul knew, based on like what other drugs have been approved, that with those effects that they were seeing, there's no way a drug that was having those effects on the heart would ever fly.

• 33:23Speaker 06

  It's a non-starter. FDA simply wouldn't approve it.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. It is kind of a bummer, huh?

• 33:29Speaker 06

  Oh, it's, it is what it is.

• 33:32Wendy Zukerman?

  Well, FDA wouldn't have approved it several years ago. We live in a different world today, Meryl.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll see. And I did find one other small trial, placebo-controlled trial, looking at ibogaine. And when I first saw that one, I was like, oh, this is great because they found that it was really working for people. In that case, it was on people who were addicted to cocaine. And they had less cravings. But then I chatted with Paul about the dose that they were giving. It says that they received a dose of 1,800 milligrams. So that's like 10 times more than what you were giving.

• 34:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 34:14Speaker 06

  That's 30 milligrams per kilogram.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  So that's, would you say that was actually pretty dangerous?

• 34:20Speaker 06

  Oh, it's just, it's reckless. It's just crazy. It's a really high dose. And I'm pleased that no one died in that experiment. But let's say it's not one of science's high points.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  By the way, I did reach out to those researchers to ask about the danger here and didn't hear back.

• 34:42Wendy Zukerman?

  But the fact that people didn't die, I mean, we still don't know why it is that some people can tolerate high doses, like rats and Holly and other people who are going to these Tijuana clinics. Everyone who's in Alan's study obviously survived to fill out the survey. We don't know why those people are fine, and yet.

• 35:10Wendy Zukerman?

  You've got people who die.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, in about half of those deaths, it looked like there was some other issue that had, like a comorbidity that might explain, like that predisposed people to like cardiac risks. But in the other half, they didn't see that. So we're still not sure why it's sometimes killing people. And, you know, I think scientists might find a way to get that benefit for addiction without the cardiac risks. Like, I talked to a different scientist who's doing clinical trials right now to find out if maybe we can like space out the dosing to find a sweet spot. And Paul's also hopeful that something like that can work, but we're not there yet. And on top of all that,

• 35:56Speaker 01

  there's another issue that came up while I was doing this research. I found that in some of those observational studies that work with Ibogaine clinics, like the one Alan worked with, they're actually giving people another psychedelic along with the Ibogaine.

• 36:12Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, two for one. What are they giving them?

• 36:17Speaker 01

  So, yeah, a couple of days after their Ibogaine trips, they'll often get DMT.

• 36:23Wendy Zukerman?

  Oh, is that what happened with Holly and Rhett?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Well, Holly didn't go to one of these clinics and didn't have a DMT. But, yeah, Rhett's got DMT also a couple of days later. And, you know, it seems like maybe they do this because DMT might give you like a softer landing after that, you know, dark intense Ibogaine trip.

• 36:45Wendy Zukerman?

  The old hair of the dog using DMT. Okay.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I talked to Alan about this. And he said that DMT.

• 36:54Speaker 04

  It's more likely to bring about an experience of euphoria and mystical experience and kind of almost like a positive transcendent experience. It's almost like you can take someone now they've been broken down by Ibogaine and give them this other thing that'll kind of lift them back up and kind of propel them forward.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  And, yeah, Rhett said that, you know, he felt really good after getting the DMT.

• 37:17Wendy Zukerman?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  But it does make the science messier, you know, trying to figure out like what drug is actually helping.

• 37:23Speaker 04

  We've tried to disentangle a little bit, but it's been incredibly difficult because usually these treatments that they give them are within a couple of days of each other. And so it's almost impossible to know, you know, which one contributed to the overall effect.

• 37:39Wendy Zukerman?

  So if you are struggling with addiction or PTSD or someone you love is, based on all of this research, would you recommend they give Ibogaine a go?

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, that's what I wanted to know. Like, I asked Paul about this, and he said that for people who still want to try this, you should at least go to like a clinic that's monitoring your heart when you're on Ibogaine, with someone who knows how to use that equipment, like a cardiologist. That's actually what Rets did. Holly wasn't at a clinic, though, like I said.

• 38:14Wendy Zukerman?

  Yeah.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  She did, she did get her heart, like, checked first, but I asked her how she felt about this risk. Had you heard that there had been some deaths from taking Ibogaine before taking it yourself?

• 38:26Wendy Zukerman?

  Yes.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, why did you decide to do it anyway, knowing that that could be a risk?

• 38:33Wendy Zukerman?

  I was dying.

• 38:36Wendy Zukerman?

  I felt like a dead, walking person. I mean, a walking, dead person. I, I was not living. Let's put it that way.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  So, brings up this point of like, sure, Ibogaine might kill you, but so can opioids. Something like 55,000 people die from opioid overdoses every year in the US alone. So it feels like the calculation is going to be different, depending on who you are.

• 39:05Wendy Zukerman?

  Yeah. And if you have any known heart risks.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. But one thing that does feel sketchy to me is that some of these Ibogaine clinics aren't just marketing themselves to people who are suffering from a serious condition, like substance abuse or PTSD. I saw a comment online from one of them saying, quote, "Many healthy people choose to do it for cognitive enhancement, neurogenesis, more clarity, peace," unquote.

• 39:31Wendy Zukerman?

  Of course.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  And that clinic charges between $10,000 to $20,000 for that peace.

• 39:38Wendy Zukerman?

  Whoa. Who's, that's, and then they'll, what?

• 39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:44Wendy Zukerman?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a drug, right? People want to take, people, people take drugs all the time for peace and clarity.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:54Wendy Zukerman?

  Um, so...

• 39:56Wendy Zukerman?

  Meryl, you're ducking the question. You recommending it to a friend or not?

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Well, so, all right. Well, bottom line, I also asked Alan the same question. Here's what he said. I'm ducking it again.

• 40:09Wendy Zukerman?

  Yeah.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Here's another scientist.

• 40:11Wendy Zukerman?

  Okay.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  So what would you say to someone who is thinking about trying ibogaine for addiction?

• 40:17Speaker 04

  Well, you know, not surprisingly, you know, because of the research that I do, people actually do email me with this question.

• 40:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  And, you know, I've heard of this research. What should I do? My son is struggling. My daughter is suffering. My parent is suffering. Should I go to Mexico? Is that the answer? And I almost, you know, I always tell people, this is not a choice I would make. It's expensive. It's risky. You know, I would much rather encourage someone that I cared about to fly to Colorado and get a psilocybin therapy session in a regulated market where we know where the psilocybin's coming from and we know who the providers are that are doing it. They're licensed professionals.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  Mmm. We do have a lot more research on psilocybin and it is safer.

• 41:06Wendy Zukerman?

  So, Meryl, here is where we are at with the research on ibogaine.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 41:11Wendy Zukerman?

  Some people who are really struggling with opioid addiction and PTSD have had amazing experiences on ibogaine. And it's really helped them. But it doesn't last forever. And in the meantime, while ibogaine is doing some cool stuff up in your brain, it is also potentially doing scary stuff to your heart. And at the moment, we don't know what that risk is, even though it's probably not super high. We don't know. So if you are struggling and you really want to try a psychedelic, at the moment, give magic mushrooms a go.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:57Wendy Zukerman?

  All right. Thanks, Meryl. Thanks, Wendy. That's Science Bases. And before we get to our citations, we have a sponsored segment where we answer listener questions from you all. So here it is.

• 42:12Wendy Zukerman?

  Today's Ask Wendy Anything. Ask Me Anything is brought to you by Amazon Health AI. Before this podcast continues, I need you to fill out 37 forms about your listening history. I'll wait. Just kidding. That would be ridiculous. Yet, it feels like we do this every time we need healthcare. But the new Amazon Health AI is different. It can connect your health history to offer you personalized care so you can get help. Here to ask me some questions is Science First's senior producer, Rose Rimmler.

• 42:42Speaker 05

  So our first question today is from Lisa Capitaneo from Instagram. And Lisa asks, "What's the first advice you would give an aspiring science communicator?"

• 42:53Wendy Zukerman?

  Be factual. Get it right. Because it's really easy online. You're making some videos, making some content. You see what does well. And sometimes it's getting a little doosy goosey with the truth. Do not do it. All you have is your reputation. And the whole point you're getting into this industry of science communication is to bring good factual information out there. So don't forget your North Star.

• 43:20Speaker 05

  Nice. I like it. Okay, Alia Savanova on Instagram wants to know if you have any big regrets in life.

• 43:27Wendy Zukerman?

  My biggest regrets in life is that I only learned how to pee properly in my mid-20s.

• 43:39Speaker 05

  Is that a thing that I should know? How do you pee properly?

• 43:43Wendy Zukerman?

  I didn't know you're not supposed to push it out.

• 43:47Speaker 05

  What?

• 43:47Wendy Zukerman?

  You know how you can make yourself pee faster?

• 43:52Speaker 05

  If you're really impatient.

• 43:53Wendy Zukerman?

  Because there was always this story of, "Girls take so long to pee." And I would say, "Absolutely not. I'll beat you," to all my male friends. And I would beat them. I would beat them.

• 44:04Speaker 05

  You'd bear down.

• 44:05Wendy Zukerman?

  I would bear down. And then, in my mid-20s, someone said, "Do you know peeing is a passive process? And you could really mess up your muscles down there if you push down."

• 44:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, you're not supposed to do that, I don't think.

• 44:16Wendy Zukerman?

  Definitely not supposed to do that. But I really wish I didn't spend, you know, more than a decade pushing. I'm fine, guys. I'm fine. I do my kegels now. But don't just let the pee flow.

• 44:31Speaker 05

  Just take a moment and relax.

• 44:34Wendy Zukerman?

  He's got nothing to prove. That's my biggest regret in life. Could be worse. It could be, it could be worse. That was today's Ask Me Anything. This is brought to you by Amazon Health AI. Amazon Health AI, healthcare just got less painful.

• 44:51Wendy Zukerman?

  Okay, now it is time for the citations. How many do we have this week, Meryl?

• 44:55Speaker 01

  This week, we have 70 citations. So go to our show notes and then click on the link to the transcript to see all that I began science. In our show notes is also where we'll put resources for mental health and substance use.

• 45:10Wendy Zukerman?

  Thank you.

• 45:18Wendy Zukerman?

  This episode was produced by Merrill Horn with help from Rose Rimmler, Aketi Foster-Keez, Michelle Dang, and me, Wendy Zukerman. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. I'm the executive producer. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wiley, Emma Munga, and Peter Lennon. Thanks to all of the researchers that we spoke to for this episode, including Rafael Santos. And a special thanks to those who talked about their Ibogaine experiences. We really appreciate you. Thank you. Science vs. is a Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like the show, you can give us a five star review. You can write a lovely comment. You can find us on Instagram.

• 46:02Wendy Zukerman?

  We are science underscore B S. I'm on TikTok at Wendy Zook. Come and say hello. And if you're listening on Spotify, you can follow us and tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out. I'm Wendy Zukerman. Fact you next time.