Tattoos: Are They Toxic?

Tons of us are inked — one in three American adults has a tattoo — but lately, we’ve been hearing that tattoos are actually bad for us. We’re told that they mess with our immune system and could even lead to cancer. Can that be true?! Plus, are there any upsides to having a tattoo? We talk to immunologist Dr. Santiago González, epidemiologist Dr. Christel Nielsen, and psychologist Prof. Viren Swami. Find our transcript here: https://tinyurl.com/ScienceVsTattoos (00:00) Tattoos Under Attack (02:03) Getting Under Our Skin (11:38) Do Tattoos Cause Cancer? (18:50) Should You Get Them Lasered Off? (20:53) The Benefits of Tattoos This episode was produced by Rose Rimler, with help from Blythe Terrell, Ekedi Fausther-Keeys, Meryl Horn, and Michelle Dang. Wendy Zukerman is our executive producer. We’re edited by Blythe Terrell. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Bumi Hidaka and Bobby Lord. Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wylie, Emma Munger and Peter Leonard. Special thanks to all the experts we spoke with for this episode, including Dr. Signe Clemmensen, Prof. David Kriebel, Dr. John Swierk, Natacha Cingotti, Dr. Sandrine Henri, Prof. Chris Lynn, and Tricia Allen. Science Vs is a Spotify Studios Original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hi, I'm Rose Rimler, filling in for Wendy Zukerman, and this is Science vs.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  Today, we are talking about tattoos.

• 0:15Speaker 00

  Tattoos are more popular than ever, but lately, they've been getting some flack. Online, we're hearing that tattoos are toxic. What does a toxic guy tattoo?

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Upper chest, Roman numerals. That is always a toxic guy. Everyone knows one of those guys.

• 0:29Speaker 00

  No, not that kind of toxic, like poisonous.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  It turns out tattoos are actually pretty unhealthy for us.

• 0:35Speaker 03

  You're constantly being poisoned by the toxins.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  If I were to go back in time with the knowledge I have now, I would not have the tattoos that I have. People are pointing to tattoo ink, saying that it's full of stuff that you don't want in your body.

• 0:48Speaker 04

  Every single person who has a tattoo has metals leaching into their bloodstream. Mercury, lead, nickel, and other harmful heavy metals that will slowly release in your body, adding to your toxic burden daily.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  And ultimately, they say that the consequences can be serious. A new study has found it could increase your risk of developing cancer.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  21% chance of getting a malignant lymphoma with even small tattoos.

• 1:18Speaker 00

  And if this risk is real, it would affect a lot of people. According to surveys in the US and Australia, a third of adults are tattooed, and globally, that number is 1 in 5. So are these people making a terrible mistake? If you get a tattoo, are you poisoning yourself and upping your risk of cancer? And finally, has science found any benefits to getting inked? Because when it comes to tattoos, there's a lot of...

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Upper chest, Roman numerals.

• 1:47Speaker 00

  But then, there's science.

• 1:51Speaker 00

  Science vs. Tattoos is coming up after the break.

• 2:01Speaker 05

  Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Terzepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains Terzepatide and should not be used with other Terzepatide-containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family

• 2:46Speaker 05

  had medullary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with isofonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor. Call 1-800-545-5979, or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 3:31Speaker 06

  This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. On this podcast, we sort fact from fiction. So here's a quick truth for you. With Sapphire Reserve, you can spend all around the world. Not only that, but you can earn four times the points on flights and hotels, book direct, and three times the points on dining. Plus, enjoy access to award-winning airport lounges and exclusive restaurant tables. Learn more at chase.com/sapphirereserve. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N A member, F D I C. Subject to credit approval. Terms apply.

• 4:12Speaker 00

  Welcome back. We are here to talk about tattoos. I'm Rose Rimmler and I'm here with Science vs. Editor and Tattoo-Haver, Blythe Terrell. Hi, Blythe.

• 4:21Speaker 07

  Hey, Rose. Famed tattoo-haver, I will say.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  So how many tattoos do you have? Where are they? Spill it.

• 4:28Speaker 07

  So the first one I got, I got with my good friend when I was 18. We both got flowers. It's just like, I'm 18, I have a flower. My husband and I have one that's kind of like "I love you" in sign language, stylized. I have a stylized double helix on my ankle.

• 4:41Speaker 00

  Very nerdy, very on theme.

• 4:43Speaker 07

  And then my other one is the Batman logo. But it is the 1960s Batman.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  I've always kind of been curious about it. Why Batman?

• 4:55Speaker 07

  So my initials are B-A-T. And so it's been like a running joke.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  Okay, that you're the Batman.

• 5:02Speaker 07

  Revealed on this podcast.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Have you ever worried about your tattoos?

• 5:08Speaker 07

  I mean, my mom worried that I wouldn't get jobs.

• 5:12Speaker 07

  But like, health-wise, I mean, I guess only to the extent that I was like, "Okay, is this guy getting like a clean needle out of the package?" But beyond that, no. It's never come up for me.

• 5:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I was pretty surprised myself when I saw this stuff pop up online about tattoos being toxic.

• 5:31Speaker 00

  I don't have any tattoos myself, but I know so many people who do. So I really want to know, is this true or is this just BS?

• 5:39Speaker 07

  Yeah, very curious to know what you found.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  So, you know, obviously tattoos have been around thousands of years. But interestingly, scientists have only recently begun to study how the tattoo ink interacts with our biology. This is kind of on the newer side of things. Scientists like Santiago Gonzalez. He is a toxicologist and immunologist at the University of Lugano in Switzerland.

• 6:04Speaker 08

  It actually started by chance. So we were not primarily oriented on the tattoo.

• 6:09Speaker 00

  Here's what happened. Santiago needed to label mice for an experiment they were doing about the immune system. The way they had been doing that was putting a tag on the mouse's ear, like tagging in their ears, which is very common. Yeah. But...

• 6:23Speaker 08

  I never liked it because it's a bit heavy and the animals is a bit annoying for the animal.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  So instead of tagging their ears, the scientists in his lab decided they were gonna try tattooing the animals in order to like mark them.

• 6:35Speaker 08

  We basically have a tattoo machine, which is exactly the same as the tattoo that machine that is used by all the tattoo artists. And we just do it normally like...

• 6:45Speaker 00

  Is it like teeny, teeny tiny?

• 6:46Speaker 08

  It's, yeah, it's very small, so obviously you have to be very, very careful.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  So they're chugging along, tattooing their mice to do their next experiment, which all seemed to work fine. But then something unexpected happened.

• 6:59Speaker 08

  My students told me, you know, the lymph nodes of the animals are completely full with the ink of the tattoo.

• 7:06Speaker 00

  Oh, gross. And just as a reminder, lymph nodes are structures in the body that are part of the immune system. They filter out lymph, which is a fluid that comes from the blood. So Santiago's team was looking at one of the lymph nodes in the mouse's leg, near its foot, which is what had been tattooed. And they found that it got stained with the tattoo ink. Okay, that's not, that doesn't sound good. It's not what they expected, and it kind of messed up that experiment. Right. That's not what they were studying. Right, it's not what they were studying. They were just using the tattoos to label the mice for another experiment. But after seeing this, they decided to do an experiment where they tattooed the mice and then watched where the ink went in a more controlled way. Okay.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  So we did all this again and then took photos of the lymph nodes two months later. So let me show you. Oh. Oh, yeah, you can really see, like, it's really, you can really see the ink in there. Like, it's, it's bright, yeah. It's a few different colors of ink and you can see like when one mouse has a pretty bright blue... Lymph node, like bulbous little goofy thing.

• 8:17Speaker 07

  So how did that happen?

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Well, OK, so your body has these white blood cells. They're called macrophages that go around gobbling up stuff that they think shouldn't be there. So this is typically like bacteria, broken bits of cells. When you get a tattoo, macrophages in your skin, they go around and they slurp up some of that ink. And it turns out that they're also bringing that ink to the lymph nodes. And scientists have also seen this in people. We've had case studies documenting it, like if someone with tattoos goes in to get their lymph node biopsied, for whatever reason, pathologists will sometimes find ink in the lymph node. And Santiago's team also found this when they looked at lymph nodes from people, which led him to conclude.

• 9:04Speaker 08

  When you are tattooing your skin, you are also tattooing your lymph nodes.

• 9:08Speaker 07

  OK, so we have tattooed lymph nodes, but does that like, does that automatically equal some kind of a problem?

• 9:16Speaker 00

  Well, it's possible. I mean, if the lymph node is involved, that means the immune system is involved in some way. So Santiago's team also checked levels of immune markers in the mice's bodies to see if they were elevated. That would suggest that they were stressed out, basically. These are molecules that are part of the body's stress response to injuries or illness. And he did find that these molecules increased in both the lymph, taken from the lymph node, and in the mice's blood. But most of that activation went back to normal after a week or so from getting the tattoo, which makes sense. Like, of course, you'd have a temporary inflammatory response to a bunch of needles in your skin.

• 9:56Speaker 00

  But there was one exception, a molecule associated with chronic inflammation. It's actually called alarmin.

• 10:05Speaker 07

  Great. Yeah. What was the alarm in doing, Rose?

• 10:08Speaker 00

  It was alarmed. It was raised even two months post-tatooing, which Santiago argues should have been past the initial healing phase of the tattoo.

• 10:18Speaker 07

  Uh huh. Okay. So how worried should we be about that?

• 10:23Speaker 00

  Well, you know, Santiago's study was kind of exploratory. It showed some hints of some immune system weirdness in mice. It wasn't looking at long-term issues in real people. So zooming out to other studies, we do start to see that this activation of the immune system might be a problem for some people. I read this case study, um, a guy from Poland. He had a full-blown immune reaction to his tattoo four months after he got it. He lost his hair. He developed vitiligo.

• 10:58Speaker 07

  What's that?

• 10:59Speaker 00

  That's like a skin, a change in the color of your skin.

• 11:01Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  And he had to get the tattoo essentially cut out of his arm.

• 11:07Speaker 07

  Whoa.

• 11:08Speaker 00

  There's another series of cases that was published recently in Australia about people who got this allergic reaction to their tattoo ink, and it attacked their eyes.

• 11:17Speaker 07

  Oh, my god.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  And some of them even had vision loss. Those examples are extreme, and they're not that common. Um, but in general, we do see a lot of allergic reactions to tattoos. Just typically, it's confined to the skin.

• 11:31Speaker 07

  Actually, you know what that makes me think of, Rose?

• 11:33Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 11:33Speaker 07

  So the other day, I was sitting with my husband, and he looked at me, and he was like, "Do your tattoos ever itch?"

• 11:44Speaker 07

  And I was like, "No." "Do your tattoos ever itch?" And you know what else, Rose?

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 11:50Speaker 07

  He has some, like, immune system stuff going on a little bit.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Another autoimmune system thing.

• 11:56Speaker 07

  So I kind of had this feeling, as you say this, I'm like, "Oh, I wonder if, like, suddenly there's this change." And like, the itchy, like, Jack's tattoos are getting a little itchy. I wonder if it's related.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  Okay, interesting. Well, the best numbers I could find on how common this is, this, like, sort of skin reaction to tattoos, it comes from a survey of people with tattoos in Germany. And it found that about 9% of people reported persistent skin problems at least a month after they got their tattoo.

• 12:23Speaker 07

  Hmm, okay.

• 12:24Speaker 00

  And so it sounds like he might be in that unlucky sliver of people.

• 12:28Speaker 07

  No. Lucky, lucky in love, unlucky in tattoos.

• 12:31Speaker 00

  Obviously. So this happens to a fraction of unlucky people, 9% in that German study. But there are other reasons to be concerned about tattoo ink. That's more universal for everyone who gets tattooed.

• 12:45Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:46Speaker 00

  One of those things is the fact that a lot of tattoo ink contains chemicals that we think are possibly carcinogenic.

• 12:53Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  And that includes black ink, you know, a lot of your tattoos are black, I noticed.

• 12:59Speaker 07

  I think there are, yeah, most of them are black. Okay, great. What are you gonna tell me about black ink, Rose? Carcinogenic?

• 13:04Speaker 00

  Black ink is basically soot.

• 13:09Speaker 07

  Sorry. Great. So it's like, yeah, like if I were a chimney sweep. Instead of a podcaster.

• 13:18Speaker 07

  Is that what's going on here?

• 13:19Speaker 00

  Yes, right.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  But this is what makes some people worried that tattoos might cause cancer.

• 13:26Speaker 07

  Hmm.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  And we're gonna need some more science to figure that out.

• 13:29Speaker 07

  Hmm, okay.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  So we're gonna have to go to Sweden.

• 13:31Speaker 07

  I'm ready.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  All right.

• 13:32Speaker 07

  I'm always ready.

• 13:33Speaker 00

  Is coming up after the break.

• 13:44Speaker 09

  Gray roots entering the chat, uninvited? Garnier's got you. Garnier Color Sensation Root Retouch covers up to 100% of grays in just 10 minutes. No ammonia, no mess, and the color lasts up to four weeks. It's as easy to apply as shampoo. Plus, it's vegan and cruelty-free. 10 minutes, sensational color, sensational price. With those savings, your next girls' night is basically free. Find your perfect match at walmart.com or at a store near you.

• 14:13Speaker 05

  Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? Zepbound Terzepatide may be able to help. Zepbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity. Or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off. Zepbound is approved as a 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, or 15-milligram injection. Zepbound contains Terzepatide. And should not be used with other terzepatide containing products or any GLP-1 receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if Zepbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it.

• 14:56Speaker 05

  Or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck. Stop Zepbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zepbound with a sulfonalurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems. Talk to your doctor.

• 15:35Speaker 05

  Call 1-800-545-5979 or visit zepbound.lily.com.

• 15:44Speaker 10

  This episode is brought to you by Petivity. Cat parents are basically mealtime detectives. Who actually ate? Did they finish? Was that less than yesterday? The new Petivity Smart Feeder for cats turns everyday meals into meaningful health insights, helping you identify changes in your cat's habits and be more proactive about their health. Plus, you can feed them from anywhere. Take the mystery out of mealtime. Visit petivity.com, P-E-T-I-V-I-T-Y.com/catfeeder to learn more.

• 16:14Speaker 09

  Gray roots entering the chat? Uninvited? Garnier's got you. Garnier Color Sensation Root Retouch covers up to 100% of grays in just 10 minutes. No ammonia, no mess, and the color lasts up to four weeks. It's as easy to apply as shampoo. Plus, it's vegan and cruelty-free. 10 minutes, sensational color, sensational price. With those savings, your next girls' night is basically free. Find your perfect match at walmart.com or at a store near you.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Welcome back. We're talking about tattoos today. And I'm here with Blythe Terrell. Hi, Blythe. Hey, Rose. So it turns out there are some reasons to be concerned about tattoos. We know that the ink doesn't just stay put, static in our skin. It's actually interacting with our immune system, getting into our lymph nodes. We know that some of the ink might be bad for us, might be even carcinogenic. But we want to know, like, what are the consequences? Right, besides just you feeling superior to me for not... Because you don't have tattoos and I do. We know that people without tattoos are better. But are they healthier? I spoke about this with Kristelle Nielsen. She works at Lund University in Sweden.

• 17:29Speaker 00

  She is an epidemiologist who focuses on environmental toxins typically, stuff like forever chemicals. But a few years ago, she got curious about potential toxins in tattoos.

• 17:41Speaker 11

  And I might have one or two tattoos myself, so that triggered the interest.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  What do you have?

• 17:47Speaker 11

  I have a dragon on my arm and I was...

• 17:50Speaker 00

  That's awesome.

• 17:52Speaker 11

  And I'm ju-- I was young in the 90s, so I might have a Chinese sign on my lower back.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  A Chinese character on your lower back? I'm not... I'm just laughing because...

• 18:04Speaker 11

  Yeah, yeah. You laugh. It's the stereotype. But I don't have a tribal. I have to say that.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  What does the Chinese character mean?

• 18:14Speaker 11

  It's supposed to mean horse, because I'm born in the year of the horse. But I showed it to my daughter's friend, who knows Chinese, and she said, "I've never seen that sign before, so I don't know what it means."

• 18:30Speaker 00

  This is the classic tattoo horror story of the 90s. Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 07

  So she's relatable is what I'm saying.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  Yes, she's very relatable. So she decided to learn Chinese. No, no, she didn't. She decided to look into tattoos and health.

• 18:44Speaker 07

  I was ready to go with you on that, Julie.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  She zoomed in on cancer for the reasons we talked about before, the potential carcinogenic ink. And also, we know that chronic inflammation can lead to cancer. So she dove into that beautiful Scandinavian public health data that we love so much here at Science vs.

• 19:01Speaker 11

  In Sweden, we have this very, very, in terms of research, useful national registries, where we all end up, whether we like it or not. So it has full population coverage. And especially for cancer, we have the National Cancer Registry. So if you get diagnosed with cancer in Sweden, any cancer, you will end up there.

• 19:24Speaker 00

  So she and her team decided to focus on two types of cancer that they could see plausibly being connected to tattoos. Skin cancers, including melanoma. It's kind of obvious. But also lymphoma, a cancer of the lymph system.

• 19:36Speaker 07

  Right, because we know that the ink is in the lymph system.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:40Speaker 07

  So that makes sense. Okay.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Right. And so they pulled the records of everyone in Sweden who had been diagnosed with those cancers between the ages of 20 and 60. And then they set out to find who among them had tattoos.

• 19:53Speaker 11

  So we contacted all of them. And I mean, lymphoma is a severe disease. So not everyone who were diagnosed 10 years ago were still alive.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  Right.

• 20:04Speaker 11

  And in that case, we contacted their next of kin.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  I see.

• 20:09Speaker 11

  With the main point then of understanding whether the relative had had tattoos or not.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  And they also gathered a group of matched people who did not have cancer, sort of like matched controls. And they sent out questionnaires to them as well. A lot of lifestyle stuff, but also lots of questions about tattoos. Not just like, do you have a tattoo? But how many do you have? How big is it? When'd you get it? Where'd you get it? All that kind of stuff. People really got excited about this. They sent Kristel like all these emails and stuff. Like they wanted to tell her all about their tattoos.

• 20:46Speaker 11

  It's nice to get to know your participants in a way. And some still send me postcards. It's really, it's really, really sweet.

• 20:54Speaker 00

  So the data started coming back. And Kristel was working closely with one of her co-authors. But this is during the pandemic. They weren't together that much. So one day Kristel found herself just crunching the data alone.

• 21:07Speaker 11

  I was, you know, in my house. It was just me and I had the data there and I just, I just needed to have a look. And then there were the preliminary results. And I just threw myself at the phone and told her that, well, we might actually have something here.

• 21:25Speaker 07

  Whoa. Oh, no.

• 21:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. So she found something when it came to cancer risk. So first lymphoma.

• 21:32Speaker 11

  We saw an increased risk of lymphoma among those with tattoos. Compared to those who did not have tattoos, their risk was 20% increased.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  And they also found about a 30% increased risk of melanoma.

• 21:46Speaker 07

  Wow, that seems big. Is that big?

• 21:49Speaker 00

  Well, here's Kristel on that.

• 21:51Speaker 11

  So we're talking about relative risk increases. So the risk on an individual level is small. People shouldn't be freaking out.

• 21:58Speaker 07

  Because it's like, it's that sort of situation where a 20% increase risk is serious, but the original risk might be very small.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:07Speaker 07

  So the new risk, even 20% higher, is still not like astronomical. Is that the idea?

• 22:13Speaker 00

  Exactly. So like in the US, according to the National Cancer Institute, the absolute risk of getting lymphoma is about 2.2%. So if we apply Kristel's finding to that, it suggests that a tattoo might make that risk go from 2.2 to 2.64%. And then for melanoma, it would be like starting at 2.2% going to 2.9%. Like sort of for the average person.

• 22:40Speaker 07

  Okay, I mean, right. So it's not nothing, obviously.

• 22:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:44Speaker 07

  And so maybe if you're a person who's already like at increased risk or whatever, that's something maybe you want to factor that in.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Exactly. And there are a couple other studies that have looked into this. And not all of them find this link to cancer. But the strongest and biggest studies do find this link. Like, a similar one that was done in Denmark.

• 23:05Speaker 07

  Well, but what about, like, is there any reason to think there might be some confounders? Like, do people who have tattoos that tend to have a different kind of lifestyle? Or like be more likely to party? Or engage in other behaviors, Rose? That like might contribute to cancer risk? Or that kind of stuff?

• 23:20Speaker 00

  So the, these studies do try to adjust for that as best they can. But yeah, it's probably not perfect. And there is some evidence that people who have tattoos might do some, on the whole, are more likely to do some risky behavior compared to people who don't have tattoos. So smoking is something that has come up in the literature.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  The thing is, like, these cancers are not particularly associated with smoking.

• 23:43Speaker 07

  Okay, so it sounds like you think there's something here.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Yes, I do, and I do. Partly because I think the studies, Christelle's and the other study from Denmark are good studies. And also, it seems like we have a mechanism that's plausible. It just, it does make some sense.

• 23:58Speaker 07

  Rose, should I get all my tattoos removed?

• 24:01Speaker 07

  Because you can, right? Like, you know there are ways to get tattoos removed.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, you can get them removed with lasers. And you might want to do that if you're freaked out about what I just said. Or, you know, you got a Chinese character on your lower back and you actually don't know what it means. And in fact, outside of this, studies do find that something like 20 to 25% of people regret at least one tattoo. Christelle says, "The thing about that is, for as little as we know about the effect of tattoo ink on the body, we know even less about what happens when we shoot lasers at tattoos."

• 24:37Speaker 11

  So, what people need to know is, I mean, you don't laser tattoos and they evaporate into thin air. I mean, that's not what happens. They need to get through the body to get out in the other end, basically.

• 24:49Speaker 00

  The laser blasts the ink into smaller fragments that the immune system then can go and clean up. But you're still like getting your immune system to, you know, you're triggering an immune response. And you're also changing the molecules. And some of those are worse than the original molecules in the ink. So for example, we know that a lot of the colors in tattoo inks are made with nitrogen groups called azos. And when azos are broken apart, they can form compounds that we know are carcinogenic.

• 25:20Speaker 11

  So we might set off a cascade of exposure to something that we don't know what it is, but it might be worse than the original exposure?

• 25:31Speaker 00

  Might be. I mean, there's a lot we don't know. We should be getting more information about tattoos generally over the next five or 10 years. Kristelle is going to keep studying people. She's got this cohort, you know, she's going to keep studying them. There's another project that's backed by the World Health Organization that's getting off the ground, following people with tattoos over a number of years. So we're going to find out more about tattoos and health.

• 25:54Speaker 11

  I think that we, as a society, we will continue to get inked. And then we need to make sure that it's safe to do it.

• 26:00Speaker 07

  Absolutely. And I think what we do on the show, right, is like, try to give you the information to like, make that decision for yourself, you know, we're not cops. But even when I think about it, I'm like, I, knowing all this, like, I don't know, you know, like, maybe I still would have gotten my tattoos. Cause I like them. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not sure if knowing this would have been quite enough for me to be like, never.

• 26:25Speaker 00

  Right. Well, yeah, I mean, and the thing is like, with anything that we talk about, it's always like risk versus benefit. You know?

• 26:32Speaker 07

  Benefit, looks cool.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  No, there are real benefits, Blythe. It's more than just looking cool. And I have one final guest to introduce you to, to tell us a little bit more about that. His name is Veeran Swamy. He is a professor of social psychology at Anglia Ruskin University in the UK.

• 26:51Speaker 12

  Being tattooed, or being able to get a tattoo, is a small marker of agency. It says, "I am allowed to own my own body and do what I want with my body." Historically, essentially, tattoos were the preserve of what psychologists have called "outgroups." And "outgroups" simply mean marginalized communities.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  So like in the West, and in communities colonized by the West, tattooing has been associated with being in an outgroup. Like, think of sailors in the 1700s. But it's mainstream in other parts of the world, like in Polynesia. Mm-hmm. And even though today, in the West, tattoos are not as stigmatized, researchers still find an echo of that motivation. So this is interesting. The demographic in the US that is most likely to get tattooed, this is according to a Pew Research survey from a few years ago, queer women. Huh. 68% of people who identify as queer women have at least one tattoo. Interesting. And that makes a lot of sense to Veeran. It goes back to the idea of being part of an outgroup.

• 27:55Speaker 12

  I think any community that has a history of marginalization will try and reclaim the body in some way. It's also the same reason why some researchers have talked about how women who have been, who have had a history of sexual or physical abuse, tend to get tattooed again. It's a way of reclaiming the body and saying, "This body is mine."

• 28:13Speaker 00

  And we do have some evidence that getting tattooed can help people feel better about themselves. A few years ago, Veeran went to a tattoo shop in London, and he surveyed people before and after they got their first tattoo, and also followed up with them a little bit later. He did stuff like, he was assessing their self-esteem. He asked them, "How do you feel about your body? How do you feel about how you look?" And it turns out that after they got their tattoo...

• 28:40Speaker 12

  People reported being happier with their bodies, appreciating their bodies more, feeling like they were more unique as a result of getting tattoos and feeling a lower anxiety about their appearance.

• 28:51Speaker 07

  Another study found this, too. This study actually had college students design a temporary tattoo that an artist painted on them. It lasted a couple of weeks.

• 28:59Speaker 00

  Uh huh.

• 28:59Speaker 07

  And they measured their self-esteem and how they felt before and after that temporary tattoo. And it did also gave them a boost.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Oh, that's fun. And I think it's telling that most people don't regret their tattoos even years later. Remember that stat I told you earlier? It's like maybe 20% of people regret their tattoos. And that means 80% don't.

• 29:18Speaker 07

  Yeah, totally. I'm among the 80%, Rose.

• 29:21Speaker 00

  OK, well, I was gonna ask you, how are you feeling about tattoos? After all that information and your husband's itchy arm?

• 29:29Speaker 07

  Well, yeah, I guess I should tell him to keep an eye out for anything else that might go on that's unnerving here, right?

• 29:38Speaker 07

  But yeah, you know, I mean, I think for the, generally speaking, I go into things thinking like, oh, it's an internet meme. People are, you know, freaking out or whatever. It's toxic. Don't do it. And so I expect those things to be kind of not true. That's my baseline. I'm skeptical, I guess. So I think it's really useful to know that like in some, that maybe there is something there. I don't know. Overall, I guess, it doesn't freak me out about the tattoos that I have now.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, let me ask you this. Would you get another one?

• 30:04Speaker 07

  I don't know.

• 30:05Speaker 00

  Do you want to? Do you have any planned?

• 30:07Speaker 07

  I have been thinking about it. I've had a particular stegosaurus in mind for a while.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I will say, one thing we didn't talk about was like, are you more at risk if you have more tattoos?

• 30:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, that's, yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  And Cristel's study found no, but the Denmark study found yes, or like bigger tattoos. And Cristel actually thinks that her finding was sort of an artifact of the way she asked the question. So she thinks it's very possible. The more tattoos or the more ink, if you get like a really ink-filled tattoo, very likely could have a higher risk associated with it. We don't have all the receipts for that. Something to consider.

• 30:44Speaker 07

  OK, I can do that, Rose. I can consider it.

• 30:47Speaker 00

  Consider it.

• 30:49Speaker 07

  Thank you so much.

• 30:50Speaker 00

  Thank you, and that's science versus.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Blythe, you should know that there are 77 citations in this week's episode.

• 31:02Speaker 07

  Wow, OK.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  And you can tell folks where to find them, Blythe?

• 31:06Speaker 07

  Yes, you can find them in our transcript, which we link to in our show notes.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  All right.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  This episode was produced by Rose Rimler with help from Blythe Terrell, Aketi Foster-Keez, Merrill Horn, and Michelle Dang. Wendy Zukerman is our executive producer. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Bumi Hidaka and Bobby Lord. Music written by Bobby Lord, Bumi Hidaka, So Wiley, Emma Munger, and Peter Leonard. Special thanks to all the experts we spoke with for this episode, including Dr. Senia Clemenson, Professor David Kriebel, Dr. John Swierk, Natasha Chinothi, Dr. Sandrine Henri, Professor Chris Lin, and Tricia Allen. Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications.

• 32:09Speaker 13

  New and exclusive holiday decor just launched online at The Home Depot. Check out the viral Grand Duchess collection with smart holiday lights you can control from your phone. Easily customize the twinkle across trees, wreaths, and garlands to match your holiday vibe. Create stunning light effects, then switch it up with the tap of your fingers. Even the man in red will be impressed. Shop the holiday decor you want online only at homedepot.com.

• 32:40Speaker 14

  From the creators of Zootopia and Frozen comes Disney's Hext. Welcome to Hext and enter the world of witches, where it was foretold that an ordinary girl would become an extraordinary witch and save the world of magic. Disney's Hext arrives in theaters this Thanksgiving.