The Science Of Thriving In Winter—By Embracing It

A psychologist and author of “How To Winter” explains what we can learn from people thriving in the coldest, darkest parts of the world.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:52Ira Flatow?

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• 1:11Ira Flatow?

  This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flatow.

• 1:14Flora Lichtman?

  And I'm Flora Lichtman. Today on the podcast, with the help of psychology, we'll explain how to embrace a positive wintertime mindset.

• 1:22Speaker 04

  I enjoy the winter. I love the winter. The winter is to be loved, not to be feared.

• 1:32Flora Lichtman?

  Ira, we are in the winter doldrums right now. The days are short. It is so cold here in New York.

• 1:42Ira Flatow?

  Yeah.

• 1:42Flora Lichtman?

  And I have to say, I do not love it.

• 1:44Ira Flatow?

  No one loves it.

• 1:46Flora Lichtman?

  Are you a winter person? Do you have strategies to get through the winter?

• 1:50Ira Flatow?

  You know, I developed a strategy when I was going to school in Buffalo. And you know what those winters are like? It is so windy. It is so cold. And you know what? I figured out if you turn backwards, you walk backwards into the wind with your parka over your head, it actually helps.

• 2:07Flora Lichtman?

  You're never going to see my eyes again because I'm just everywhere I go, I'm going to be backwards. And you know what I learned this week is that there are actually scientifically supported things you can do to better cope with winter. Our next guest traveled to some of the coldest, darkest places on earth to learn how people there don't just survive, but thrive in winter. And one of the key ingredients is a positive wintertime mindset. Joining me to tell us more is Dr. Carrie Leibowitz, health psychologist and author of How to Winter: Harness Your Mindset to Thrive on Cold, Dark, or Difficult Days. She's based in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. Welcome to the show, Carrie.

• 2:47Speaker 05

  Oh, thanks so much for having me.

• 2:50Flora Lichtman?

  Have you always been a winter lover?

• 2:53Speaker 05

  No, I'm here with you today as a reformed winter hater, actually.

• 2:59Flora Lichtman?

  That's a relief.

• 3:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, right. So there's, you know, I think, hope out there for you out there if you're feeling like this can never be you, because I thought it could never be me for a long time. I grew up at the Jersey Shore, which is a beach town, and, you know, summer reigns supreme, and winter was the season that you just have to get through in between the best times of the year. And I really struggled with the winter growing up, really did not like the feeling of being cold, really had a hard time getting up, especially for school in the winter in the darkness, but also really feel like I was steeped in a

• 3:41Speaker 05

  culture that was very celebratory of summer and where sort of the general assumption was like, yeah, winter is depressing.

• 3:51Flora Lichtman?

  Yeah, there was a bias.

• 3:53Speaker 05

  Totally. Huge bias.

• 3:55Flora Lichtman?

  So you were converted by your own research?

• 4:00Speaker 05

  I was converted by my own research and by my experience moving to northern Norway, which was a thing that I did mostly on purpose, but also, you know, sort of like applied to do a research study in the Arctic to understand how people there make it through these very long, dark winters with relatively low rates of winter depression and sort of, you know, never really actually expected to get the grant funding to go. And then I got it and I was like, oh, my God, what have I done? Like, am I really gonna blow up my life and move to this place? And also, how will I survive this Arctic winter?

• 4:38Flora Lichtman?

  But you did.

• 4:39Speaker 05

  I did, and I learned a lot. And that was, you know, where my reformation really took place was in northern Norway, where I was exposed to, I mean, both a very special winter. I think, you know, northern Norway is a very magical winter wonderland, but also was exposed to a culture and a perspective where people were really doing things to embrace the season, really looking at winter differently, really approaching it differently, and where I learned a lot of lessons that, you know, even in places with perhaps slightly less magical winters that I have lived since then, I've been able

• 5:22Speaker 05

  to take with me, you know, through to other kinds of winters.

• 5:26Flora Lichtman?

  Yeah, I mean, I would have expected if you go to the Arctic, you would find widespread misery in the winter, but that is not what you found.

• 5:36Speaker 05

  If you look at lots of places in the world, including Norway and northern Norway, including Iceland, including the Netherlands, they actually tend to have lower rates of seasonal affective disorder than we would expect. And so it's clear that people all over the world who live through these very extreme, long, dark winters are able to do so without a lot of the winter depression that sort of paradoxically we see at, you know, lower latitudes and milder climates.

• 6:09Flora Lichtman?

  Carrie, what is their secret?

• 6:13Speaker 05

  Okay, I mean, there's a lot of things, I think, but, you know, part of the secret is that I think they have a really different mindset and approach to the season. And so a big part of what that looks like is this willingness to adapt to winter. So I almost think there's An advantage of having a really extreme winter because when you live in a place like where I was living in Norway, where the sun actually doesn't rise for two months, it's obvious that that is going to affect you and it's obvious that you can and should change your behavior to adjust to that. It's okay that you feel more tired in the winter,

• 6:54Speaker 05

  duh, because the sun isn't rising and you're in the Arctic. So obviously you're going to dress appropriately for the winter weather. Whereas I think people, you know, at more middle latitudes, we try to pretend like we can just carry on the same as in other seasons, like winter sort of shouldn't affect us. And so I think it's both our perspective and our approach. And of course, I also think there's a lot of cultural things and infrastructure in places that are really built for winter that enable people to embrace the season differently, as well as sort of, you know, their individual mindsets and perspectives.

• 7:32Flora Lichtman?

  And we're going to get into all that. We asked our listeners for their wintertime survival strategies. And first of all, I have to say, Michigan, Wisconsin, upper Midwest was out in force for this one, as we might, we might expect. And a lot of the strategies we heard were Nordic inspired. So here's a clip.

• 7:52Speaker 06

  My name is Shannon Mitchell from Grand Haven, Michigan. And how do I get through the lake effect, darky winters that we have here? I have adopted a Finnish lifestyle from my experiences up in the Kewona, which is saunas, cold plunges, Nordic skiing, and when the sun is out, it's guns out, no matter what the situation is.

• 8:11Speaker 05

  I mean, this is both exemplifies this idea that we can really learn from the Nordics and apply it to wherever we are. But also, you know, what I like about these strategies is that they work with the season to find the opportunities in winter, right? What things are better in the winter?

• 8:33Flora Lichtman?

  A cold plunge? I don't know.

• 8:35Speaker 05

  A cold plunge. Well, a cold plunge you can really only do

• 8:39Flora Lichtman?

  True.

• 8:40Speaker 05

  in the winter. And so the question is, what seasonal activities can you give yourself in winter to look forward to annually?

• 8:48Flora Lichtman?

  Let me run another listener strategy by you. What do you think about this one?

• 8:51Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 8:53Speaker 07

  Hi, this is Toni in Charlotte, North Carolina. And I'm sitting in a Chick-fil-A parking lot, having my peppermint shake. That's one help. It's starting to snow, but my most regular thing that I go to is a nice cup of tea and the Hallmark Channel. It seems to help quite a bit.

• 9:16Speaker 05

  Toni, you and my mom are birds of a feather. Cup of tea and the Hallmark Channel, like you could be in my house any day in December. But, you know, I think what's special about the Hallmark Channel, right, is it's this seasonal ritual that you look forward to. It's such a small ritual, and so many of these ways of embracing winter is, like, they sound trivial. They're, they're basic. But when you do that with a little bit of intention, this is one of those strategies that takes on an outsized meaning because it transforms something that we usually feel is unpleasant, or uncomfortable, or a negative of the cold, and makes it into an opportunity

• 10:01Speaker 05

  for this other kind of sensory pleasure that is small but comforting.

• 10:06Flora Lichtman?

  No, it's so true. I mean, hot frosty does work better in December than in July.

• 10:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, you can't watch hot frosty in July. Like, get out of here.

• 10:18Flora Lichtman?

  After the break, spring/winter. What is it? And can it help you feel less bitter about the dog days of February?

• 10:25Speaker 05

  When it's called out and you have a word for it, you can start noticing it and paying attention to it and experiencing it differently.

• 10:33Speaker 00

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• 12:11Speaker 08

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• 12:39Flora Lichtman?

  All right, let me run another listener message by you.

• 12:43Speaker 09

  Hi, this is Dee from North Manchester. And I was sharing how I make it through the winter in seventy-two, so I made it through several. Every fall, I plant more daffodils in the ground, and then I just wait impatiently for them to sprout in the spring. And it's always something to look forward to.

• 13:06Speaker 05

  Yes, I love this one also, Dee. I mean, this one does two things, right? So it gives Dee something to do in the fall as the days are getting shorter, which is a time that I think many people sort of consciously or unconsciously have sort of winter panic, you know, like, the days are getting shorter, we're going into it, we're like, oh, no, here we go. And so, an activity that is seasonal to that time of year can really counteract that. And then the other thing it does is it gives Dee a marker of early springtime. So, one of the strategies that I really love is the Sami, who are the indigenous people of northern Scandinavia, actually have eight seasons.

• 13:51Speaker 05

  So they have winter, spring, summer, fall, and also four bridge seasons. So, spring, summer, summer, fall, fall, winter, and spring, winter. And I think spring, winter is a really handy sub-season to sort of separate out in our hearts and minds, because often, depending on where you live, any time between, you know, mid-February to late April, early May, you're sort of in this transition period, where maybe mentally, you're over the winter, you're kind of done with it, and you get that first warm day of spring, and you're like, that's it, I'm putting my coat away, like, I'm done. And then the next day, it's cold again, you know?

• 14:35Speaker 05

  And it's not spring, but it's not winter. It's spring, winter.

• 14:40Flora Lichtman?

  I love spring/winter and actually having you name it really does bring me to a very, very specific memories of it. I almost can smell it, like that petricor, that sort of like earth smell that comes back when the ground isn't frozen anymore. And I can see my front yard where there's a lot of little crocuses popping through. And it's interesting that just giving it the name somehow then carves it out in my own mind.

• 15:14Speaker 05

  Totally. I mean, you know, I think having the language to describe these things is really powerful. And I think this is even, you know, the whole power of talking about your wintertime mindset, you know? You already had a wintertime mindset before it was named for you. But when it's called out and you have a word for it, you can start noticing it and paying attention to it and experiencing it differently.

• 15:38Flora Lichtman?

  Yeah, I want to talk more about this positive wintertime mindset. Is this like snowflake pilling ourselves? Like, we just... How do you define it?

• 15:48Speaker 05

  So, you know, I use that word very specifically. So, we think of mindsets as sort of the core assumption about something in the world and how it works. And so, the truth is that lots of things in the world are ambiguous, right? Like, stress is a good example. Stress can be harmful for our health and wellbeing, but it also can be helpful for our performance and our health and wellbeing, right? The stress response evolved to help us meet our goals. And so, when we encounter stress, what is our mindset about it? And how does that determine something like stress's impact on us? And you can think about that with winter as well. So, winter has objective qualities. Winter is objectively dark, cold,

• 16:33Speaker 05

  usually wet. But the meaning of cold, dark, and wet is very ambiguous. Cold, dark, and wet can be refreshing, rejuvenating, cozy, magical...

• 16:47Flora Lichtman?

  That never occurred to me until you just said it.

• 16:49Speaker 05

  To most people. But really, it can be if you let it be.

• 16:53Flora Lichtman?

  We had a listener who left us a message. And when I heard it, I was like, yes, this listener has the positive wintertime mindset. Listen to this.

• 17:02Speaker 10

  Hello, my name is Cody. So, I...

• 17:08Speaker 10

  Typically, living on the Oregon coast, we get all sorts of overcast. It is pretty oppressive for a lot of people. Me, though, I don't know if I'm a vampire, but I just soak it up. Winter is my favorite time.

• 17:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I think Cody has the positive wintertime mindset. Some people just sort of like that overcast or inherently feel that it is cozy. But I think even if you're not naturally like Cody, it's a thing that you can train yourself to appreciate a little bit.

• 17:46Flora Lichtman?

  Okay, and let me run another listener's coping mechanism by you.

• 17:50Speaker 11

  Hi, this is Dan in Bear Lake, Michigan. I adopted a couple of dogs. They love the snow and they truly love it when I get outside with them. So they're helping me a lot in not just coping with, but enjoying winter.

• 18:07Flora Lichtman?

  What do you think?

• 18:08Speaker 05

  I mean, I think dogs are good for everything.

• 18:12Flora Lichtman?

  Can't go wrong with a dog.

• 18:12Speaker 05

  Can't go wrong with a dog. I mean, a dog is a really great motivator for getting outside. But I also think, you know, there's something so pure, right? About a kid's relationship to the snow or a dog's relationship to the snow. You're just experiencing the fun of it is something we can learn from dogs.

• 18:29Flora Lichtman?

  Let's talk about seasonal affective disorder. How many folks actually fit the diagnosis for that?

• 18:35Speaker 05

  So seasonal affective disorder is really interesting because I think there's a lot of popular misconceptions about it. I think a lot of people think that it is a mild form of depression, that it is sort of a lower threshold than clinical depression. But the truth is that seasonal affective disorder is a subtype of clinical depression. So you first have to meet the criteria of clinical depression. It has to severely disrupt your quality of life and your daily functioning. And I think a lot of people have the experience of feeling affected by winter, of feeling like they're more tired in the winter or they're less motivated.

• 19:18Speaker 05

  They have less energy, they feel less social. And actually, we can see that as a natural and normal response to the seasonal changes in light. You know, if you look at If you look at every other living thing on earth, plant or animal, they're all changing their behavior or slowing down in some way in the winter. You know, a lot of the times when people have this feeling like, oh, I'm so tired in the winter. What's wrong with me? It's almost because we pathologized having any response to winter. And we're so hesitant to adapt to the season that we're quick to label it winter depression, when in fact, it might not be.

• 19:59Flora Lichtman?

  Carrie, it seems like we have a lot of shorthand for this like negative view of winter. You know, winter doldrums, winter blues. Do we need a new shorthand for winter? Like winter whoopees, glacial giddies? Brainstorm with me here, Carrie.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, let's be the winter PR team, you know? I think winter wonder, winter wellness, you know? It doesn't maybe have to be alliterative, I guess.

• 20:32Flora Lichtman?

  It has to be. Okay, listeners, we know, listeners, you're the cleverest among us. We want your thoughts on this. Call us with your winter rebranding and let's get a movement going. 646-767-6532. Give us a positive winter catchphrase. 646-767-6532. Get your pencils. 646-767-6532. Carrie, thank you so much for the polar positivity today.

• 20:58Speaker 05

  Oh, thank you for having me. I can't wait to hear what the listeners come up with. It's going to be great.

• 21:03Flora Lichtman?

  Dr. Carrie Leibowitz, health psychologist and author of How to Winter: Harness Your Mindset to Thrive on Cold, Dark, or Difficult Days. Carrie's based in Amsterdam in the Netherlands.

• 21:18Flora Lichtman?

  And that is about all we have time for. Lots of folks helped make the show happen, including

• 21:24Speaker 10

  Santiago Flores.

• 21:25Flora Lichtman?

  Rasha Ridi.

• 21:26Speaker 10

  Flora Samares.

• 21:27Flora Lichtman?

  Robin Casmer. I'm Flora Lixman. Thanks for listening.