The Middle + SciFri: How Can Trust In Science Be Restored?

SciFri Host Flora Lichtman joined Jeremy Hobson on “The Middle” to talk about how trust in science can be restored.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Flora Lichtman?

  Hey, it's Flora. Happy Science Saturday. Today, we're bringing you a special bonus episode from our friends at the live call-in show, The Middle, hosted by the great Jeremy Hobson. They invited me on last week because they were doing a show about something we love to yak about here on Science Friday, and that is trust in science and how to restore it. It was a really interesting conversation, and I think you might enjoy it. Here's Jeremy.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  The pandemic and the response to it, people telling us to wear masks, stand six feet apart, get the vaccine, that actually led to a significant drop in trust in science in America, in part because COVID almost instantly became political. Here is Florida's Republican Governor Ron DeSantis speaking in 2021.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  I think it's very important that we say unequivocally, no to lockdowns, no to school closures, no to restrictions, and no mandates.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Florida famously had very few rules during the pandemic and ended up with a death rate that was actually about the same as states with a lot of rules. That was then. Now, the President of the United States, who, by the way, calls climate change a hoax, has appointed science skeptics throughout his administration, including Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who's been whittling away at vaccination recommendations in the United States. And more worrying for scientists, the federal government overall has sought billions of dollars in cuts to scientific research. So our question to you this hour, how can trust in science be restored? Joining me this hour, Flora Lichtman, who is host of Public Radio's Science Friday. Flora, welcome to The Middle.

• 1:41Flora Lichtman?

  Thank you for having me. Glad to be here.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  People are going to think it's like a different time of day right now if they're listening to you on this show.

• 1:46Flora Lichtman?

  I'm very confused personally. Yes.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  Well, and joining us as well is Priya Natarajan, who is a theoretical astrophysicist and Chair of the Yale Astronomy Department. Priya, welcome to you.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  Delighted to join in on this conversation.

• 1:59Speaker 01

  Well, and let's talk about where we are on trust right now. Flora, I'll start with you. How much did COVID and the response to COVID from politicians who were, you know, bringing what they were hearing from scientists to the public have to do with the drop in trust in science, do you think?

• 2:16Flora Lichtman?

  You know, Jeremy, I don't, I'm going to make a mess of this question right off the bat. I feel like this is not a tidy story, at least from my vantage point. And I'll just bring up a couple of things. Like, for one, You know, trust in science has varied over history and it's varied depending on what community you are in and what your personal experience with science and medicine has been and what your community's experience with science and medicine has been. And so there are communities with, that have had lower trust for, lower trust in science for, you know, obvious reasons. The pandemic too feels complicated to me too because, you know, I was talking to a pediatric infectious disease doctor this morning about this and, and she

• 2:59Flora Lichtman?

  said, yeah, there are things that we would have done differently, but also remember information was changing very rapidly and it wasn't just science. I think people sometimes talk about the pandemic as like, oh, this is science in action. We get new information and we revise it and the public isn't aware of that. But this was like science meets a public health emergency on a scale that we really haven't seen. So that's one piece of it. And at the same time, you know, I remember during the pandemic, just sort of moments of immense pride in science, like when those-

• 3:31Speaker 01

  The vaccine, for example.

• 3:33Flora Lichtman?

  The vaccine. I mean, from the Trump administration in, as well, and just the emotional people, connection people had to getting it, this sort of like wave of relief. And one more complication and I'll hand it off, but I, I think when we talk about trust in science today, it's also hard to broad strokes it because like, what science are we talking about? Like, we have the American Academy of Pediatrics suing the CDC for their, you know, over the vaccine schedule. So like, when we say science, are we talking about-

• 4:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:05Flora Lichtman?

  Who, who, you know, these are-

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Is it the researchers or is it the-

• 4:08Flora Lichtman?

  Obviously very high trust in science, right.

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Is it the science officials? Right. Priya, what do you think? You're, you're a very accomplished scientist yourself. What do you think about where the lack, lack of trust came from? Or is this new, what we're seeing now?

• 4:21Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, I think this is not new. In fact, this is a longstanding sort of paradox in American society and culture. Like, we're at the, and you know, we've been a scientific superpower. We're at the cutting edge of research, discoveries and breakthroughs in many, many fields. But all alongside, we've had this sort of real sort of denialism of science that has been a very, very strong thread in our society. So it's a real paradox that these two things kind of coexist in America. And I actually think that there are some very deep, profound reasons for this kind of building distrust.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  And in particular, I actually think that the pandemic was an opportunity where trust could have been restored, because, you know, as I said, this is a longstanding deterioration. And I think we lost that opportunity. So I feel a little unhappy about that. And so my take is that, you know, from the scientist's point of view, one of the things that we as scientists have not done all that well is sort of demystify the process of science, right? So the process of science, as Flora mentioned, is actually messy. It's not linear, you know, the way in which scientists figure stuff out. It's complicated. Systems are complex. We're studying complex problems.

• 5:47Speaker 03

  We pare them down, try to understand them. And, you know, there are dead ends, there are mistakes, whatever. And that process is not clean. However, it's still extremely rigorous. And why is it rigorous? Because, you know, somebody proposes, a scientist, a domain expert who has trained, who understands the basics of science, doing research, proposes a brand-new idea. What happens? All other domain experts in the field interrogate the idea, right? They really push and they scrutinize it. And After sort of lengthy, critical look, you know,

• 6:28Speaker 03

  it eventually, if the evidence is compelling and is supporting the claim that's made, then those domain experts actually validate the idea. So that process is complex, but it's really rigorous. And that's where the rigor of science really comes from, right? So, and I think that we scientists have presented, unfortunately, a rather sanitized view of science and the public has not understood, you know, this process. You know, anything we know in science is provisional.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Well, and that process that you're talking about, Priya, doesn't work well with our social media-driven society where everything has to be very quick and we have no attention spans anymore. Let me just ask another thing before we get into the phone calls. And I see that the lines are starting to light up. Flora, we've heard about these cuts coming from the Trump administration, in part maybe because they feel that it's politically possible for them to do this now to make cuts in science. We've heard about these cuts coming, but now it sounds like maybe Congress is starting to push back in a bipartisan way against the cuts. What do we know right now about what's happening with the cuts to federal funding of scientific research?

• 7:41Flora Lichtman?

  Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really kind of like good news, surprise story of the new year. So there have been bills that have been winding their way through Congress, so they're not done yet, but they have had bipartisan support that keep funding levels for most of the science agencies at about what they were last year. There have been even some minor increases. I think two days ago, an NIH budget came out that had like a 1% increase or something, you know, which is not huge gains, but so much different than the 40% cut that we were, you know, expecting to see. So I was, you know, I was really hopeful and I talked to the president, oh, sorry,

• 8:21Flora Lichtman?

  the CEO of the AAAS last week, Sudh Parikh, who was, you know, who said also, this wasn't an accident. This has been the work of people behind the scenes all year long to make sure this happens.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Let's go to Christina, who's calling in from Hendersonville, North Carolina. Hi Christina, go ahead with your thoughts about restoring trust.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  So I'm a public health nurse and there are measles outbreaks in every surrounding county. I'm just a sitting duck in mine for now until we get our first case that I'm sure will blow up because our vaccination rates are abysmal right now. But the problem with science right now is that they are not speaking and communicating clearly and concisely and directly. For instance, they know, they never say things like measles is the most infectious disease known to man that affects humans right now. There is no other disease, including smallpox or chickenpox or influenza that is more contagious. So just being able to say something with being direct and concise and not trying to

• 9:27Speaker 04

  make sure that they cover all the possibilities in their statement and make sure they're being so objective because they're scientists.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Well, who's the they that you're talking about? Are you talking about scientists or are you talking about politicians trying to explain it?

• 9:39Speaker 04

  No, no, scientists, public health officials, people of authority, doctors, you know, they're trained to be skeptics. And so to ask someone to say a direct thing like, could this kill me? Yes, this could kill you, you know, instead of saying, well, you know, there's a good chance about 50, 70% about, you know, no, this could kill you, right?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Right, right. Yeah, Christina has a very good point and Flora just kind of reminds me of years of covering climate change and even when you get a climate scientist on, sometimes they're like, well, we can't say that this giant hurricane that's hitting Texas right now is actually a result of climate change, but it could be made worse by it. Anyway, what do you think about that?

• 10:17Flora Lichtman?

  Yes, 100%. I think Christina is hitting on a real thing and, and part of it, I think, that, that could change is there's no media training, there's no, for scientists, as far as I know, at least it is not required in most cases, right? And, and we feel this on Science Friday all the time, you know, we talk to scientists constantly and...

• 10:39Flora Lichtman?

  I think that's a problem. I mean, scientists should have to explain what they do and why they're doing it if they're getting public funding. If we are paying for that research, I think that should be, you know, part of the mandate is to be able to talk about what you do. So I think Christina is hitting on something, yeah, really real.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Alex is in Madison, Wisconsin. Alex, go ahead with your thoughts.

• 11:00Speaker 05

  Hi there. So as a tenured professor and scientist myself, I've seen how our community sometimes undermines its own credibility, not through bad research, but through tone. And when we lead with certainty and dismiss questions as ignorance, I think we shut down the very dialogue that builds trust. So I think that humility is keyness in science. It is the heart of the scientific method, and science is fundamentally a process of questioning, revising, and, you know, meaning that we don't yet know everything. And that epistemic humility is what makes science trustworthy in the first place. But somewhere along the way, we started communicating as if we had arrived at a final answer, and rather than as fellow travelers in an ongoing inquiry. And I think that people can sense

• 11:45Speaker 05

  that difference between a scientist who says, well, let me help you understand what I know, and one who says, here's what the evidence currently shows, here's what we're still working to figure out. I think that first one closes the doors, but that second one can open them. And I think that trust is real, and we really need to focus on that relationship through curiosity and humility first.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Alex, thank you very much. And I'll just let you know that both of our guests were nodding. For those people that were watching on YouTube, they said they were both nodding as you were saying what you were saying. So Flora, tell us, why were you nodding?

• 12:18Flora Lichtman?

  Alex, so good. Such a good comment. I really, you think it was so awesome.

• 12:22Speaker 03

  Leading with transparency and not certainty is really, I think, invaluable. And kind of, you know, as you, you know, I'm nodding like really in great agreement. The process of science is something that, you know, we really should be laying bare.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 12:42Flora Lichtman?

  I think, you said, you mentioned paradoxes, and I feel like this is like the ultimate scientific paradox. It's like, it is a, it is a discipline that is about knowing and not knowing at the same time. And it's beautiful.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Hmm. Let's go back to Pittsburgh, and Samir, who's calling in from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Hi, Samir. What about you? What do you think can be done to restore trust in science?

• 13:07Speaker 06

  I think that there needs to be more scientific breakthrough, um, especially for, um, research that is funded by the American taxpayer. We, we shell out a lot, um, and we don't get very much in return. We do get innovation and breakthrough, but that it's an extra cost to us. We're taxed for the, uh, for the research to fund the research. And then on top of that, we're taxed or charged, uh, through premiums and out of pocket pay for medications that, you know, we've already, we've already funded for.

• 13:47Speaker 06

  Um, we've, we've, we've, uh, they've asked for us to, to fund cancer research for century, uh, for decades now, and there's very little breakthrough on that. Um, so I just think that there needs to be some kind of, we cancer, we, we, we cured cancer, we cured diabetes, something massive needs to happen.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Hmm. Ah, a little impatience from Samir. Um, what do you think about that, Flora? Because some people would say we've made huge advances in things like cancer research, not to mention technology, uh, and all the things that came out of our NASA funding. But good point, you, we still have to pay for these things when they come along, even though the American taxpayer did help fund the research in the first place.

• 14:33Flora Lichtman?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think this, this is where you see that the breakdown in science communication is happening because, you know, there's such an off quoted stat that it's like for every dollar you put in, you get two or three dollars back when it comes to, to basic research. And, you know, when I think about the advances, just in my 20 years of covering science, especially in medicine, you know, I'm awed. I'm really awed by the, the progress we have made for some diseases. So I don't see it that way, but I think. What it shows is that we're not doing the best job connecting the dots for people.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  Actually, when Samir was speaking, I actually picked up my iPhone and I was waving it to remind people. I totally agree that we need to talk about and, you know, share the story. So, you know, you would not, without all the research in fundamental quantum mechanics, who would have thunk you would not have had this phone? In fact, you wouldn't have had any electronics whatsoever. And without, you know, Einstein's theory of general relativity, you would not have had GPS satellite. So you would not have, you know, a lot of the things that we take for granted. I think, you know, I respond again that, you know, we really need to connect the dots and show people what the returns are.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  And especially with basic sciences, it's trickier because the arc, how long it takes for something to really translate into a product, is unpredictable. So sometimes it can be quite long and sometimes it's very easy to see. I mean, I think in medicine, it's been much faster than, for example, fields like quantum mechanics or general relativity. It's hard to sort of see how it's completely transformed our life. But science has, and I think the returns are actually quite high. I think we need to, you know, understand that, you know, when it comes to medication, translation of research, right? We are, again, the corporate world is in there. It's not that the scientists are involved in pricing the drugs, right? They're not. They're doing the research.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  They're publishing it. And then you have corporate interests that want to make money that are pricing the drugs.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Let's go to Aaron, who's in Thornton, Colorado. Hi, Aaron. What do you think about restoring trust in science?

• 16:54Speaker 07

  I think it's a very, very tall, tall order. Science is based on logic and evidence, results, and people don't even think that way. I think it's interesting how we structure approach people with so many things that they don't even use for how they process information, like logic and reasoning and evidence. And it's shown through their counter And the complete weakness of it that they're missing using those things. You have a better chance of getting Joe Rogan to say something that you want to say. So they they like him and now they believe it. Because most of us are wired that we can only really accept what you say if we like you to begin with.

• 17:36Speaker 07

  Me personally, individually, I don't have to like you for you to be right. But for most of us, that is very true. I need to like you for you to be right. And it doesn't matter what it is.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, a very interesting point, Aaron, and it actually brings up a something that I saw in that Pew poll that Priya you were mentioning earlier. Uh, which is that I think 90% of Democrats have a at least some confidence in scientists. But right now it's like 65% of Republicans. So there's a big breakdown on the political, which gets to the point that we just heard Flora from the caller.

• 18:13Flora Lichtman?

  Yeah, I mean, I think there's clearly there has become now an identity component to your perspective on this. And I think that is really hard. I mean, maybe I am naive or Pollyanna, but I do think people can process information with logic and reason. And I do have hope for that. I have to partly because it's my job, but um, but also I do.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  What have you learned about America from hosting Science Friday on the issue of what we're talking about here?

• 18:44Flora Lichtman?

  What a big question, but okay, here here's here are my thoughts on that. I you know, I think basically the answer is that I have restored faith in humanity through this show. Partly because we talked to people like Priya who are obsessed with their thing, who are dogged in this pursuit of of finding something out. And who sometimes make discoveries that make our lives better because we learn about how the universe was formed. Or because they find a gene that is tied to breast cancer. But I also feel like our listeners every day remind me that the world is filled with funny, kind, thoughtful, curious people.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, good. A very hopeful note to end on Flora Lichtman, the host of Science Friday and Priya Natarajan, theoretico, astrophysicist and Chair of the Yale Astronomy Department. Thank you so much to both of you.

• 19:31Flora Lichtman?

  Thanks, Jeremy.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  Thank you. Thank you for having us.

• 19:35Flora Lichtman?

  That's From the Middle with Jeremy Hobson. Check out their podcast for more of this conversation and many others. They do this every week, asking listeners from across the country and across the political spectrum to weigh in on the most important questions we face. Check them out wherever you get your podcasts or at ListenToTheMiddle.com. See you Monday. Thanks for listening. I'm Flora Lickman.