Science Friday
Hosted by Flora Lichtman and Ira Flatow
Vocal researchers are learning how death metal singers safely produce extreme vocal distortions, in hopes of improving vocal health care.
4,474 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
WNYC Studios is supported by Wise. Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the world. With a Wise account, you can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart, get wise. Download the Wise app today. Terms and conditions apply. WNYC Studios is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O O dot com.
That's O D O O dot com.
Science Friday is supported by Mathworks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model-based design. Mathworks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com.
You're listening to Science Friday.
I'm Flora Lichtman, and you guessed it, today on the podcast, the science and art of death metal screams.
AI metal.
That's a standard false chord scream.
Keep going.
Being able to belt out a tune like Adele or Pavarotti, we know is not just about raw talent. We know that the best singers in the world work on their technique, how to control their breath and develop the stamina to hit note after note for a two-hour concert. But pop stars and opera singers, they're not the only vocalists who figured out how to harness their voices for maximum impact.
Death metal vocalists also train their voices to hit a unique guttural register. And that scream is not as easy to master as you might think. Vocal scientists at the University of Utah wanted to understand how death metal singers make their iconic screams. And what they found is not only insightful for metalheads, it might help improve treatment for people with some types of vocal injuries. Joining me now to talk more about this research are my guests, Dr. Amanda Stark, speech pathologist and vocology researcher at the University of Utah, based in Salt Lake City, Utah, and Mark Garrett, lead singer of the band Kardashav and a vocal coach based in Phoenix, Arizona. Welcome to you both to Science Friday.
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, thanks so much.
Amanda, how did you get interested in studying death metal singing?
Yeah, so these extreme metal vocalists use a completely different pattern of vocalizing than we see in other styles of music. They tend to have a lot more activation of the supraglottic structures, so the things that are happening, tissues, muscles, et cetera, above the true vocal folds. And so when we think of a singer, they use mostly this kind of pitch of their voice in their singing that is mostly just true vocal folds. Extreme metal vocalists use everything under the sun, including the true vocal folds, but they don't oscillate them in quite the same way that we see in a clean style of singing.
And part of this work is if we can really hone into the structures that are being used for each of these screams, anatomical structures, tissues within the throat, then we can help better define these things for coaches, for the artists themselves, as well as the scientific community.
What does it look like when you bring one of these performers into the lab?
Yes, let's give you the visual. First, we do a camera in the back of the throat. So we have a little camera that goes in through the nose and then it hangs out in the back of their throat. And we can watch as they do different vocalization. And so, once we kind of understand their profile, we call it their phenotyping, what their screams are, how they classify their screams, how they describe their screams. Then we do the camera where we look visually at the throat. And then we-
While they're screaming?
While they're screaming. And then in some situations, they have electrodes in their muscles of their throats and the camera in their nose. And then I think the really kind of fun part for a lot of these artists was laying in the MRI scanner and being able to then come back out of the scanner to see the interaction between all of these structures of the vocal tract.
That's so fascinating. Okay, I want to do an experiment. So one of the things you were doing was sort of like creating a taxonomy of death metal screams. So Amanda, will you give me some of the names and Mark for each one? I know, I'm putting you on the spot. Will you demonstrate it for us?
Sure.
Yeah, we could actually just do some of yours. Mark, I think it'd be kind of cool for everyone, there are some overlaps in screams. I think a lot of people have used a term like a false chord scream. Do you want to try that one?
Yeah, sure. False chord scream is a really great starting point. It's loose, it's open. Compared to other screams, it's very relaxed and it really builds on sounds we know how to make, you know what I mean, to create something new. And that sound is very similar to
Keep going. I can't get it. Please, I need like 10 more.
You know what? With all these screams, I'll say, "You're listening to Science Friday." How about that?
Oh my god, yes.
Here we go. False chord scream. You're listening to Science Friday.
Okay, so that's false chord. What's, give me another, another variety of scream.
So this is a lower tone. This is the tone that I thought was driven mostly by my arytenoids, but seems from what we can see so far to have a lot of arytenoid and epiglottal activation. It's very low and it's like a
sort of sound. So that would be something like You're listening to Science Friday.
This is delighting me to no end.
Oh, you should see, you know, it was so fun because these guys, not only like you can't appreciate how intense and volume that these screams really are. We had like sound booths and multiple walls and we had some of our colleagues in other room spaces that came over and they're like, you guys are really loud. And I just kind of laughed to myself as I'm like, you know, approximately four inches from their face with this camera and as their mouths are wide open and their tongues are rolling in their mouth and then they have this ability to use multiple tissues, multiple muscles within their throat to coordinate their sounds.
Do you actually, would you want to do your Kermit?
Yeah. So a lot of these, a lot of these sounds, and this is one of the most useful things I think I took away from being part of this research is a lot of the way that we teach these sounds, not just me, but the other vocal coaches out here who teach extreme vocalization is we'll start with a cartoon voice that helps us get into sort of this, as Amanda told me, anticipatory posture to create the sound. And so for me, I'll do like a hi-ho Kermit the Frog here, and then I'll throw a little distortion on it, hi-ho, and then from there I just lean into the sound, and it really all just comes back to Kermit the Frog.
Yeah. And then I have, I have probably one of the more wild screams I do that would give you the low, mid, high gamut, but this one is like that cawing crow and it actually requires me to have a beard because I have to pull on my whiskers to make my mouth resonant enough, but I can do that one. Again, I'll say you're listening to Science Friday. Sounds kind of like this. Let me find it real quick.
There it is.
There you go.
That's an amazing sound to make.
It's a lot of fun. Yeah. And it builds on a lot of, it builds, you know, this is one thing that I think I also really enjoyed and Amanda, I'm sure you can speak to this quite a bit, is the whole source filter model of looking at it because if I take away all the things I'm doing, pulling on my cheeks, curling up my tongue, which is a common technique in the metal vocal world called a tunnel throat, the sound behind that is actually quite simple. It's just.
But when I add those filters,
it changes the sound drastically without having to do a lot of extra work in my actual laryngeal muscles, which is a lot of fun.
I mean, I think what's, what's really hitting me, hearing you perform these different sounds is they, they are so intricate. I mean, Amanda, when you looked at what's going on in the vocal cords, were you surprised? What were the sort of big take home points?
I think naively, I believed when I was just listening or hearing a song or watching stage performances, I think I didn't appreciate how sophisticated, again, how synchronized all of these things are and how decisions are being made by these artists, by these performers, to be able to manipulate their filter, that vocal tract's shape so beautifully.
Did these screams damage the vocal structures?
I'm always hesitant to like globally say yes or no. For the people that we've looked at so far and from the literature, we know that the answer is really no.
Is there a benefit to understanding how this works? I mean, is there an application? I mean, it's obviously cool, but is there also an application?
Oh, it's, it's huge. From how we are going to approach rehab and treating different voice disorders to swallowing Parkinson's disease, esophageal problems and swallowing, it really is going to be that extensive to be able to educate clinicians, ENTs, GI doctors, neurologists, you name it, about these vocal mechanisms and how these sounds, how this complexity of these sounds impacts the human body.
Mark, you're a vocal coach. Could you teach me a scream?
Flora, you could absolutely learn to do metal vocals. Now, can you learn how to do a perfect scream in the next minute or so? Probably not, but I can show you a good way to get started.
Yeah, I'm, I'm in. I'm in. Let's try.
Perfect. So we're going to start you off with a basic false chord mid because a false chord mid builds on sounds that we, we have to make to survive. And one of those sounds is clearing our throat. So what I want you to do in, in as natural a way as possible, don't try to simulate the sound, but just, let's say you're watching TV and you absentmindedly, clear your throat like that. Nice. Do you feel, I hear a little bit of rumble. Can you tell me where roughly you feel that rumble?
I feel it kind of closer to the top, the back. It's the back of my throat, but it's sort of closer to the back of my tongue than I would have thought.
Okay, so would you say it's on the back, above the back, or below the back of the tongue?
I think it's right on top of the back, on the back.
Okay, well, you want to know something? You're off to an amazing start. What we're gonna, what you would do at this point is you would want to take that throat clear, and you would want to think about holding it in the front of your face, as if that sound could be held right behind your lips, like you were eating a piece of candy. And that would create a sound sort of like this.
Yeah, that's pretty close. That's pretty close, yeah.
And then you could open up to a
So we take that throat clear.
You can think of it as like a game show buzzer, back from like the 60s and 70s.
You can give that a try if you'd like.
Yo, wow. Okay, let's, let's, let's give-
Am I getting there?
Yeah, so now what I want you to do is I want you to take this, and I want you to gently bark it. You don't have to push too hard, but you're gonna hold on to this sound of cargaria, this sound of throat singing, you're gonna go
It's the game show buzzer noise with a little bit of a bark at the end.
Flora, are you, Flora, are you a metal vocalist and you're just not telling me? You could be doing false chord very soon. If, if I had you as a student, I'd be like, oh, this is too easy. This is too easy.
Please stop, it's embarrassing me, and I don't believe you. And after, you know, so many horrible choir experiences as a kid, this is really like turning my whole life around.
You found your space, you found your space.
I found my space.
You can, you can, you can feature on the next Cartes Chev album, how about that?
Oh my god, that would be such a joy. That would be such a joy. This was so much fun, thank you both for taking the time to come on the show and teach us about this.
Oh, Flora, thank you so much, it's been such a pleasure to be able to talk with you about our work.
Yeah, I appreciate you having me here, it was an absolute blast. And as I always say, many thanks, much love.
Dr. Amanda Stark, speech pathologist and vocology researcher at the University of Utah, based in Salt Lake City, and Mark Garrett, lead singer of the band Karteshav, and a vocal coach, based in Phoenix, Arizona. To read more about this research, go to sciencefriday.com/metal. After the break, it is peak pollen season, and an allergist says it might be getting worse.
This is sort of the alarm bell that worsening allergy seasons are, it almost seems like something out of like a sci-fi novel in the future, but I think it's something that we have to start preparing for.
Science Friday is supported by PBS, presenting Going Wild. If you love learning about the natural world and meeting the scientists who help us understand it, be sure to check out the new season of Going Wild with Dr. Rae Nguyen-Grant. It's the chart-topping and web award-winning podcast from the folks at Nature on PBS, now with a video companion series. In this season of Going Wild, host acclaimed wildlife ecologist Dr. Rae Nguyen-Grant heads out into the field to explore the animals, people, and stories that make nature worth saving. Stops include a hibernating black bear den in Arkansas and an underwater shipwreck site off the Florida coast. If you're looking for a place to start, check out the season's debut episode, where Rae joins beloved biologist and influencer
Jordan King in the Florida Everglades to learn about his unlikely journey into science and how to study a wetland when it's not very, well, wet. So don't miss out. Follow Going Wild with Dr. Rae Nguyen-Grant on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Science Friday is supported by Planet Visionaries, the podcast created in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Stay tuned for a trailer and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Do you want to hear about visionaries creating a better world? People working in conservation, exploration, science, and tech, alongside storytellers imagining and creating a better future. I'm Alex Honnold, professional rock climber and founder of the Honnold Foundation, bringing you season six of Planet Visionaries. This season, I speak to guests like National Geographic photographer Tom Pescek and Anna Raffman, executive director of the Jane Goodall Institute, USA, in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Watch Planet Visionaries on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
WNYC is supported by Bear. Every day in America, science delivers. Not just in the headlines, but in the moments that matter most. Science is a journey, one of curiosity, persistence, and progress. It's about asking questions, testing, learning, and improving again and again. Science delivers harvests that feed families, tools that help farmers grow more with less, and new ways to protect land for generations to come. Let's keep asking, keep testing, keep discovering, so science can keep delivering. Learn more at sciencedelivers.com. Support for Science Friday comes from USA for UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency. Here's a problem.
How do you keep a house above freezing when the windows are gone and the power is out for 16 hours a day? In Ukraine this winter, the answer fits in a box. Reflective insulation, plastic sheeting to cover broken windows, draft blockers for the doors. Simple materials installed the same day a team arrives. Your gift delivers them, and until December 31st, it's matched. Donate at unrefugees.org/friday.
A couple of weeks ago, we did a show on allergies, and you all called us with tons of follow-up questions, which I totally understand as a seasonal allergy sufferer myself. But there was one question in particular about allergy capitals that we could not blow off. So we have Dr. Nita Ogden, Director of the Allergy, Asthma, and Sinus Center in Edison, New Jersey, back with us to field it. Hey, Nita, thanks for coming back.
Oh, thanks for having me.
Okay, let me play you this question.
Hey, this is Robyn. I'm calling from Berkeley, California, and I'm a mom. I have two kids with different kinds of allergies, and your program about allergies really caught my attention. Our family had a pretty extreme experience the last few years, where we moved from the West Coast to St. Louis, Missouri, and both of our children developed extreme allergies. And one of my children literally touched the grass, and their whole skin turned bright red. So it turned out there's a mold in St. Louis, Alternaria alternata, and... That one ended up triggering this like severe skin reaction. It never stopped for the year that we were here.
And um, that was very scary. And then the other child had severe pollen allergies. And at some point, we just had to move back to California. So my burning question is, are there regional allergy hotspots? Or some way that allergy families could know before you travel to or move to a city? Like, is this gonna be a safe place for my kids or for myself?
Nina, any response for Robin?
So unfortunate. Yes, I think that's a really great question and will become increasingly more relevant to families. As climate change continues to make allergy seasons worse. I think a good frame of reference here is actually the Asthma and Allergy Foundation of America's Allergy Capitals list. It comes out every year. The 2025 list just came out a few weeks ago and St. Louis was in the top 100 most harmful cities in terms of allergies. And what they look at there are pollen counts, of course, how often people are using over the counter medications and accessibility to allergy specialists. And I think that something like that is a good place to start if people are starting to think about
whether they're gonna move to a place or not based on allergies. And the other thing to keep in mind is that if you look at that list and what we're seeing because of climate is the southeast is greatly affected because of warmer temperatures, because of the storms that we read about. So you have you know, that that intensity of weather that comes from climate change. Um, and then the higher carbon dioxide level. And this leads to earlier seasons, maybe even three weeks earlier. Lasting longer and more intense season, which what we're seeing that this caller is talking about. Her particular case may have to do with also her family's allergy background and you know, there was a history with her children, for example.
But definitely example of how severe the seasons can be, especially for children in this changing climate.
Hmm. You said the southeast, but what are some of the cities or towns at the top of the list for allergy capitals?
You know, the top of the list was Wichita, New Orleans, Oklahoma, Tulsa, Memphis, Raleigh, North Carolina, Richmond, Virginia, South Carolina, Greenville. Those places were really in the top 10. North Carolina as well. St. Louis has often come up, even though it wasn't in the top 20, because the mold that she's talking about was one of the biggest things that they've seen in the spring season. So, you know, this sort of parallels a lot of the stories we hear about also about weather. But yeah, those are the, those are some of the top cities. Florida also remains greatly affected as well because, again, they have the same things going on in terms of temperature and moisture from storms, for example. Climate change is leading to higher carbon dioxide levels,
warmer temperatures and more extreme weather, which leads to greater moisture. And these are all things that lead to more robust plant growth and in fact, larger plants with more pollen. So this leads to soaring pollen counts, which leads to more intense symptoms.
Well, what's the deal with this mold that Robin mentioned?
Oh yeah, so mold is, you know, mold can be basically a year-round allergen, depending on the climate. And in a place like St. Louis, especially if there's high humidity levels and warmth, you're going to see mold which can last, you know, if you think about it, through the entire spring into summer into fall. Mold is one of the reasons why, in fact, we see people complaining of my seasonal allergies have now become all year round, because it is sort of ever-present in the environment.
Have you heard of this before, having families who've had to move because their kids' allergies or someone in their family's allergies were so severe?
Yeah, I've definitely heard of people planning things like this, where they're going to move, where they're going to vacation. And these are all actually really great tips in terms of if you are planning things like this, think ahead about where, because now we do have apps and so forth that can tell you how bad the pollen seasons are in certain cities. So if you're thinking about going on vacation or again, moving, I mean, moving is a pretty, you can't always choose if it's for a job or something, but it is remarkable that the allergy season, which in the past, you know, Maybe like more than twenty years ago, people would not have thought about allergies affecting their move. Now it could very much affect your health.
And for children especially, this means, um, you know, decreased sleep, decreased quality of life, missed workday, and workdays for parents and school days for kids, it's a significant thing.
Are the, are kids more sensitive to allergies?
I don't think there's more sensitive, but I have seen that the way it sort of manifests itself just seems quite intense. For example, the ocular allergies, uh, big red swollen eyes, extremely itchy. Um, I might see asthma more often in children, so it's, you know, they're on playing recess and it's hard for them to catch their breath or they're feeling tight in their chest. Um, and when it happens in kids, it just seems, you know, can seem really alarming.
You know, obviously it's not always possible for families to, to leave a place.
Exactly.
And to move. So if you live in an allergy capital, what can you do?
I think the biggest thing is that if you start seeing severe reactions that are lasting, uh, you know, even more than a few days, check in with a board certified allergist who can help you. There are a lot of treatments that people just simply don't know about, even, you know, some primary care providers don't know about, uh, that could help. And that involves getting tested, finding out what you're allergic to, so you can take steps to avoid those triggers. Uh, and then again, optimizing your treatments, uh, beyond over the counter medications, uh, doctors have access to different drugs now, things like sublingual immunotherapy, uh, there's also those good old allergy shots. Uh, and there are also things called biologics that may work, uh, these are injections that may work depending on what kind of condition you have.
And so I think this is sort of the alarm bell to sort of say that, you know, allergy season and worsening allergy seasons are, it, it almost seems like something out of like a sci-fi novel in the future, but I think it's something that we have to start preparing for. And I think the healthcare community at large has to start thinking and opening their minds to additional treatments that are easily accessible to people, um. And beyond the treatments, sort of environmentally, what steps are we taking so that this mitigates? Because even when I was in my fellowship, I know we would read studies, you know, in the early 2000s, like that, oh, in 2040, ragweed pollens will be triple what they are now. And I mean, we're, we're basically approaching those, those scary studies.
You're seeing them come true, you're saying?
For sure. I know that in urban planning, some cities are moving away from planning the male trees that are responsible for this kind of proliferation of pollen. But, you know, I think there needs to be a lot more emphasis on what we can do to environmentally change things so that people suffer less.
Thank you. That's really fascinating.
Dr. Nita Ogden, Director of the Allergy, Asthma, and Sinus Center in Edison, New Jersey. And if you have a question for us, our voicemail box is always open. We love hearing from you. You can call us at 877-4-CY-FRI. That's 877-4724-374.
And that is about all we have time for. Lots of folks helped make this show happen, including
John Dancoski. Annie Nero.
Jason Rosenberg. Rasha Rudi. I'm Flora Lichtman. Thanks for listening.
Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated