How can astronaut food be better?

As NASA plans for longer spaceflights to the moon and Mars, a better menu is important both nutritionally and psychologically.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Flora Lichtman and you're listening to Science Friday. As NASA prepares for long-term space missions to the moon and Mars, there's a long list of considerations. Trained crew, check. Tricked-out spaceship, check. A meal plan, check. But the constraints of space have meant that it isn't really known as the final frontier of culinary imagination. Remember when astronaut Christina Cook tried to convince us that this sounded yummy during the Artemis 2 livestream earlier this year?

• 0:36Speaker 01

  This is actually shrimp cocktail. And this has been rehydrated already, so we added water to it, and the shrimp soaked back up the water, and it's actually pretty tasty.

• 0:49Speaker 00

  Is it, Christina? Is space cuisine due for a giant leap for all of astronaut kind? And if we're planning for the long-haul trip to Mars, just how important is the menu? My guests have thoughts. Clayton Anderson spent 15 years as a NASA astronaut, flew twice on the ISS back in 2007 and 2010, and he's very familiar with the space menu. He's currently based in Nebraska. And David Skinner is the executive chef and owner of Eculent and Ischia, two Houston restaurants. He's also advised NASA on how to make food for astronauts better. Clayton, David, welcome to you both.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Thank you for having us.

• 1:29Speaker 03

  Thank you. Honored to be here.

• 1:31Speaker 00

  Clayton, what did a normal meal look like for you when you were up in space? Is it shrimp cocktail washed down with some tang and astronaut ice cream for dessert?

• 1:41Speaker 03

  No astronaut ice cream. Nobody eats that stuff in space. When I flew the first time for five months, there were two Russian cosmonauts and me onboard. And so, we had done food tastings in America, and we had done food tastings in Russia. And you rank the food that you like, and if you rank it higher than a, I don't even remember the number, I guess probably seven, you're going to see it in space. And for me, with the Russian stuff, that was good. The American stuff is a little more boring. So, you would have a can of Russian food, and maybe a can of Russian appetizer, and maybe a plastic bag full of, you know, some kind of vegetable from America.

• 2:23Speaker 03

  And then you'd eat all that, and then I would go for an American dessert, which was in another little plastic bag. And so, the food was tasty enough, but it didn't look too good, right?

• 2:34Speaker 00

  Well, what was in the can?

• 2:37Speaker 03

  My favorite thing to have in the can was lamb with vegetables. So, think of a Dinty Moore beef stew can. It was about the same size as that can. When you opened the top, it had fat and other stuff laying on the surface. And you heated it up and stirred it up, and they also put salt in their food. So, salt plus fat, those two things equal taste, right? And of course, America says, oh, salt is bad. Fat is bad. Remove all that, and then they take away most of the taste. So, that was a typical meal for us.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  What's the deal with this shrimp cocktail obsession? I've heard other astronauts say this too, and it really shocks me. What's going on there?

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Well, shrimp cocktail, shrimp cocktail, horseradish with the sauce, the red sauce and the shrimp. The trick with shrimp cocktail in space is you have to add the right amount of water, but then you have to let it sit long enough to absorb the water. Because if you do it too quickly, and you bite into a shrimp and it crunches, nobody wants to bite into a shrimp that crunches, right? I mean, it just, it destroys the mood. And then, the other piece of it is, it's a popular dish because of the horseradish. When you go into space and the fluids start to go up toward your head, make your sinuses puffy and make your ability to smell a little tougher. Having something like that that shoots through your sinus cavity and gives you that woo-hoo,

• 4:08Speaker 03

  wasabi-type action, that's preferred by astronauts. And so, if you do the thing the right way, and you get the right amount of water, and you let it sit long enough, it is very tasty. It is very reminiscent of shrimp cocktail back on Earth.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  David, as a chef, you know, why do you think astronauts are craving this wasabi kick, this horseradish kick?

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Well, just like Clay said, you know, when you can't really smell or taste anything very well, because, you know, it's like having a head cold, right? It's just not that enjoyable. Matter of fact, it was funny, because Clay came to the grand opening of Eculent that we had 12 years ago. And that was, that was my first question to him, was like, what's your favorite thing to eat in space? And he said shrimp cocktail, and I'm like, I can't imagine that. But, you know, I've had astronauts that tell me they've put Dijon mustard on, you know, apple pie, just to make it, you know, taste halfway decent.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  And NASA sends up, you know, literally buckets of condiments, because, you know, that's kind of what they're craving, is something to make the food taste, taste good. And I know exactly what Clay's talking about in terms of, let's get rid of the salt, let's get rid of the fat. You know, when, when I first met the food scientists over at NASA, you know, basically what they were doing was taking, you know, American food, you know, stofers, whatever, and basically freeze drying it, repackaging it. And their main concern, as you can imagine, is, is more nutrition, right? So, we want to make sure the astronauts are getting the right amount of calories and

• 5:57Speaker 02

  everything else to keep them healthy. Taste was not number one on the list. But for a chef, taste is number one on the list. Calories are probably, you know, further down, let's just put it that way.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  Further down by my waist.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  David, I understand that NASA came in towards your kitchen. What was this team interested in learning about, and, you know, why were they there?

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, that was at Eculent, which is our kind of molecular gastronomy restaurant. So, we, we have a complete food lab at the restaurant, which is not a normal thing for most restaurants. And so, we have, you know, freeze dryers and centrifuges, and, you know, we can, we can make anything that NASA can make, and actually more. Matter of fact, that was the comment when they all came and toured the lab. They were like, you have more equipment than NASA. And I just laughed, and I'm like, that has to be impossible. And, and then when I went and toured their facility, I was like, oh, it's actually correct. But their equipment is, you know, you can put a, you know, a car in their freeze dryer,

• 7:06Speaker 02

  and ours, you know, you can put like five trays in. So, it's, it's a scale difference for sure. But, but yeah, they were very interested in the, in the things that we're doing. You know, the, the goal I had with, with Eculent was to pack as much flavor in as small a bite as humanly possible, which was a kind of an interesting thesis. And so, like, we have a little BLT tomatoes. If you think of a cherry tomato, but when you pop it in your mouth and eat it, it not only tastes like a bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwich, but you have the exact same texture. So, it feels like you bit into a sandwich, not a tomato. And it's those kinds of things that they're really interested in.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  And we spent some time with them, talking about, you know, Mars. I mean, this was, you know, seven years ago, maybe, something like that. And they were starting to, you know, kind of wrestle with, you know, that long of a journey. You know, how do you keep the food interesting? How do you keep it, you know, hopefully tasting somewhat decent? And then, of course, weight is, is a huge issue, right? So, at Eculent, what was also kind of interesting is, we were able to alter the environment of the restaurant with basically a push of a button. And that was, that was the big thing about Eculent.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  So, we could change the lighting, we would change the smell of the restaurant, the music was all choreographed. So, we attacked all your senses at the same time. And you would be surprised how, how much just that one change can make in a diner's experience. Charles Spence, who's a professor over in the UK, he's done work with a bunch of Scottish whiskies around, you know, if you just made the lighting green, the peatiness of the Scotch comes out better, right?

• 9:06Speaker 00

  In your mouth, the taste of it.

• 9:08Speaker 02

  In your mouth, yeah, the taste of it. Just, just things like that, right? So, we knew that the, there was a, there was a good scientific background for, for all this, but no one had really explored it. And, and so, smell is one of the really important things, also one of the hardest for us to, to figure out. And, you know, because if you think about, I mean, smell's the quickest receptor in terms of bringing back memories for people. You know, real estate agents know, you know, the trick to selling a house is bake some cookies or an apple pie. People walk in and it smells like home, right? Reminds them of grandma or whatever. And, and so, if you can figure out the right kind of smell to put in the restaurant, you know, at the right time.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  I worked with a fragrance designer in Los Angeles to help us figure out the smells. I mean, we spent six months doing test dinners, just trying to figure out, you know, what smells would work, does it come before the dish, during the dish, after the dish? You know, is it complimentary to it, or is it the same smell? You can really kind of play tricks on people and accentuate things. And one of the things I had talked to NASA about was, you know, you could send up little scent packets that, that the astronauts would break and, you know, quickly kind of smell it, give them all of the flavor of the dish without adding, you know, a lot of weight, because you're basically sending up air. And that would really change the dynamics of the food.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Because I think Clay had told me before, you know, the, the, the order of importance, you know, when you're in space is kind of like air, water, and then something tasty to eat, right?

• 10:48Speaker 00

  That's so fascinating. I have to take a quick break, but when we come back, I want to ask you more about how you might translate what you do in the restaurant to a spaceship. And I want to ask you to dream up the ideal menu for future space travel. Stay with us.

• 11:07Speaker 04

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• 11:42Speaker 05

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• 12:17Speaker 00

  Clayton, what do you think about that idea of scent packets? Would you have welcomed that in space?

• 12:23Speaker 03

  Yes, I think, you know, people like David are genius. And there's another guy out there named Chip Davis from Mannheim Steamroller, who has an idea for ambient therapy, he calls it, and where he goes and digitally records sounds in various environments, like in a rainforest or on the plateaus of the Utah desert, or wherever it may be. So now, think about this, right? You've got David, and you've got Chip, and you're on a trip to Mars at six to nine months. What if you're sitting together, and you're smelling evergreen trees and a burning fire as you eat one of David's hot dogs with sauerkraut, or whatever it is, right?

• 13:07Speaker 03

  With the human mind and with these guys' genius talent, you can create scenarios that allow people who are stuck with each other in a tin can, traveling through space with these amazing experiences. And you don't have to do it every day. You know, we used to work really hard to have a big meal. If a shuttle crew docked to the space station, you know, we all had one, at least one big meal, where the shuttle guys brought their food, the Russian guys brought their food, you know, and we just had a big smorgasbord. Well, these are the kind of experiences that you can do at the end of a week or during a tough time, you know, if you had a scenario where, Lord forbid, someone lost a family member back on Earth

• 13:51Speaker 03

  while they're traveling to Mars. These are those things that psychologically can be a big, big deal. And people like David, they need to be involved in this stuff. And that's a weakness NASA has. I believe that we haven't pushed for this yet. And we need to push for this kind of stuff. Yeah, we're good at technical and rocket engines and the rocket equation and creating oxygen and having sleep stations and all that. But eventually, you've got to go up here, and you've got to hit the mental aspect of this. And you have to hit it in ways that are simple, don't weigh much, and give big impact. So if I can break something and smell evergreen trees or a pepperoni pizza or an apple pie baking,

• 14:36Speaker 03

  I mean, holy cow. Of course, that would make me want to eat apple pie. So, you know, there are positives and negatives with all that.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  Clayton, what are the biggest no-nos of space food? Like, I'm thinking crumbs on Earth, very annoying, but maybe up in space, actually dangerous?

• 14:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think sometimes we advertise that it's more serious than it really is. Yeah, crumbs can be bad. But if your filter system's good, the crumbs will end up sucked against a vent that you can vacuum them up every Saturday morning, which is what I did. But my wife sent me a bag of caramel corn from the Boy Scouts of America, right? And, you know, I pulled that out, and I was so excited. And then, of course, when I opened the bag with no gravity, I mean, everything shot out and had been pummeled in the spaceship that it came up in. So those kernels of corn that you expected were just butchered to microsize, and it went everywhere. Now, we chased it down and ate a lot of it,

• 15:37Speaker 03

  which was a lot of fun, but it does get in the way. And what they worry about is stuff getting in your eyeball or in your ears or in places you don't want it. But I think that that's a challenge that can be defeated by smart system design.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  Yes. David, if you could make a meal for the first astronauts setting foot on Mars, what would be on the menu? How would you think about that challenge?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's a really interesting question. So one of the things that we've been able to do and kind of create that's a huge hit here on Earth and I think would be really fun in space is we've developed sort of encapsulation technologies where, like, we serve a bowl of French onion soup that's in a little bonbon, that's in a little sphere. And you pop it in your mouth. And when you break it, you get the entire French onion soup experience in like, one bite. So the encapsulating shell is made from a series of fats

• 16:48Speaker 02

  that simulates the cheese. And so we can put kind of the cheese taste. And so you get that. But the inside, when it explodes, is all the flavor of French onion soup. So I would design a solar system of spheres that were a complete dinner, but would be able to float in space, right? And so you could arrange your own constellation of the dinner and then just kind of go and bite them and enjoy that, you know. So, you know, maybe the Earth is like dessert, and it's a blueberry pie or something. And, you know, you've got French onion soup and, you know, a steak or whatever. But that's what I'd do. I think that would be very entertaining, a lot of fun,

• 17:33Speaker 02

  super delicious, and, you know, something really different.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  David, that's a beautiful image. Thank you so much. David Skinner, executive chef and owner of Ecculent and Ishtia, two Houston restaurants. And Clayton Anderson, retired astronaut for NASA. He spent 167 days in space between 2007 and 2010. Thank you for joining us.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 17:55Speaker 03

  A pleasure. And I've had his French onion soup, and it's delicious.

• 18:02Speaker 00

  And before we go, we want to hear from you. What's the food you would want to eat on a trip to Mars? What's the food you never get sick of? Tell us about it, how you make it, why you like it, and why it brings you comfort. 8774-SY-FRY is our number, 8774-SY-FRY. This episode was produced by Kathleen Davis. And if you're feeling just so satiated by all of this, leave us a review. And I just want to shout out NC at Philly, who said, "I've been listening to Science Friday since the early 2000s. And if for some reason I can't listen to it for a few days, I experience withdrawal symptoms. It's just great." Thank you, NC at Philly. We really appreciate it. And thanks for listening. I'm Flora Lichtman.