2 Private Lunar Landers | Cervical Cancer Deaths Plummet, Experts Credit HPV Vaccine

The SpaceX rocket carries lunar landers from companies based in Texas and Japan. They could arrive at the moon in the coming months. HPV can cause a variety of cancers, including cervical. New mortality data for women under 25 point to the success of the HPV vaccine.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  WNYC Studios is supported by Wise. Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the world. With a Wise account, you can send, spend and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart, get wise. Download the Wise app today. Terms and conditions apply. WNYC Studios is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O O dot com.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  That's O D O O dot com.

• 0:47Ira Flatow?

  Science Friday is supported by Mathworks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model-based design. Mathworks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com.

• 1:07Ira Flatow?

  This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flatow.

• 1:09Flora Lichtman?

  And I'm Flora Lichtman. First, a quick look at the news this week. Ira, what caught your eye?

• 1:16Ira Flatow?

  Yeah, there was something really hard to believe that I discovered, and that is out of every 10 new cars sold in Norway, nine are electric.

• 1:26Flora Lichtman?

  Wow.

• 1:27Ira Flatow?

  Yeah, and they're aiming to make it 100% electric by the end of this year. I mean, and this is in a country that's known for its oil and gas production.

• 1:36Flora Lichtman?

  So how did they pull it off?

• 1:38Ira Flatow?

  It's the old story of slow and steady. They set a goal back in 2017, and they didn't ban gas cars. No, but they did tax them, gas and diesel fuel. And this is the good part, they offered a bunch of incentives to buy electric cars. They gave you free parking, discount on tolls, they even waived the VAT and import taxes. And the best part, you could even drive in the bus lane on the highway.

• 2:05Flora Lichtman?

  I'm sold.

• 2:07Ira Flatow?

  So if you put it all together, that that comes to about one third of all the cars on the road are electric. And I think that's pretty impressive. So what impressed you this week, Flora?

• 2:19Flora Lichtman?

  Well, a story I really liked came from our friends at the show Radiolab. So they teamed up with the International Astronomical Union, and they ran this contest to name one of Earth's quasi-moons, which I learned is apparently not a moon, but also not not a moon. It's like a hunk of rock that orbits the sun, but is close enough to a planet to seem like a moon. So anyway, they picked one near Earth that has a name that is not so catchy. It's like a string of a bunch of digits. And they held this contest and they got thousands of name submissions from people across the world. And this week, their panel picked a winner.

• 2:57Ira Flatow?

  And drum roll, please?

• 3:00Flora Lichtman?

  Cardia.

• 3:01Ira Flatow?

  Cardia.

• 3:02Flora Lichtman?

  Cardia, which is the Roman goddess of doorways and transitions, a kind of guardian of thresholds and protection, which I love. It seems like a perfect fit.

• 3:13Ira Flatow?

  That is cool. That's a very creative choice. And speaking of moons, what a segue. Joining us now for even more space news and other stories of the week is Jason Din, climate editor at Atmos in Washington. Welcome back, Jason.

• 3:27Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 3:28Ira Flatow?

  Let's get right into the news about moons. This was a very busy week in spaceflight. On Thursday, a SpaceX test of its starship system exploded shortly after a launch. And that explosion is still under investigation, but it's believed had been caused by a propellant leak. But another really exciting launch also from SpaceX was a rocket carrying not one, but two moon missions. Tell us about that.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, SpaceX launched this rocket carrying two landers that are headed to the moon. One belongs to a US company, and another belongs to a Japanese company. They took off from the NASA Kennedy Space Center in Florida early Wednesday morning. And after about an hour, the two separated and are now taking different paths to the moon. The Japanese lander from a group called iSpace. Is gonna gather soil, test the system that would cultivate food using algae, and test another system that splits water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen. And the American lander from a group called Firefly Aerospace is doing science with NASA. Some of the technologies they're testing include satellite navigation, computers adapted to radiation,

• 4:38Speaker 03

  and self-cleaning glass that wipes away sharp abrasive lunar debris.

• 4:43Ira Flatow?

  Oh, that's cool. So are these like competitors on the same vehicle?

• 4:47Speaker 03

  Uh, no, they're not competitors. They don't see it that way. They're actually doing very different things. They're landing on different spots in the moon. They just shared this rocket to kind of save costs.

• 4:56Ira Flatow?

  Yeah, they hitchhiked. Okay, what's the timeline here? When did, when did they actually get to the moon?

• 5:01Speaker 03

  The American lander is scheduled to touch down in early March, and the Japanese one expects to touch down in late May or early June. And once they're there, both plan to spend about two weeks operating.

• 5:12Ira Flatow?

  Okay, let's go back to Earth for a moment for, uh, big food news. The FDA is moving to ban a common food dye. Tell us about that.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, this happened on Wednesday. The FDA banned the use of red dye number three in food, beverages, and drugs. What this means is that, starting in 2027, companies are gonna have to start removing red three from their products. Now, this is a petroleum-based food coloring that's used in all sorts of products you might have in your pantry, including certain candy corn, strawberry ice cream, and even bacon bits. And some companies have already started replacing red three with more natural dyes from beets or insects. Health advocates say that this decision was really long overdue. The ban comes more than three decades after red three was first found to cause cancer in male lab rats.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  And the FDA banned red three from cosmetics and topical drugs way back in 1990. Other places like Europe, Australia, and New Zealand have banned it from food too. But these countries did make one kind of amusing exception, which are maraschino cherries that are candied or used in cocktails.

• 6:21Ira Flatow?

  Huh, maraschino cherries. So how solid is the evidence here? Do we really know if this dye is potentially harmful? It would seem so.

• 6:29Speaker 03

  So the FDA is obliged to not approve any food additives that are cancerous to humans or non-human animals, which is why that rat study is important. They did downplay the risk to humans in their announcement. So while there is a known cancer risk in male lab rats, they said that they haven't found that in any other animal, including humans. Some critics and advocates do argue that maybe the only reason there's no known cancer risk in humans is that food safety research has been historically underfunded. So just because there's no known risk doesn't necessarily mean that that risk doesn't exist. It's possible that it's just been undiscovered.

• 7:04Ira Flatow?

  Yeah, I'm reminded of other food colorists and colorations and dyes that have been banned in the past. All right, let's go on to other health news this week. There's a new study out looking at potential cases of dementia in the future. Tell us about that one.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  This paper was published in the journal Nature Medicine, and it projected that by 2060, new cases of dementia will double to a million new cases per year. And among black Americans, it's gonna triple. If the projections bear out, that would mean 12 million Americans with dementia in 2060, which is up from 6 million Americans now. There are a few reasons for this. So the first and more minor one is that dementia risk from this study was higher than the previous estimates. The study found that after turning 55, the risk of developing dementia at some point in your life is 42%, and that risk increases with age. But the real main driver of this trend is that our population is aging.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  By 2060, some of the youngest baby boomers are gonna be in their 90s, and many millennials are gonna be in their 70s. So a huge portion of our population are going to be at the old ages where the risk of dementia is greatest.

• 8:15Ira Flatow?

  So are they talking about anything people can do to lessen their own risks of dementia?

• 8:21Speaker 03

  Totally. There are ways to manage risk factors. The researchers suggest improving heart health through medicine or lifestyle changes, preventing and treating strokes, and wearing hearing aids once you need them. You know, being able to hear keeps you socially and cognitively engaged.

• 8:38Ira Flatow?

  Cool. This next one, I know there's AI in everything these days, but now it appears it's in snake antivenin design. Wow. Who knew?

• 8:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is a really cool study. It was published in Nature this week, and these researchers used AI to design proteins that could be used in antivenoms. These proteins were designed to latch on to specific toxins in the venom and prevent them from harming cells and tissues. The way the process worked is that the AI designed a protein, the researchers manufactured it, and then they injected it into mice that were given otherwise lethal doses of venom toxins. And the AI proteins ended up saving those mice's lives. It's a proof of concept that the researchers say could one day be applied to devise a new treatment for snake bites. And that's actually quite important because while snake antivenoms

• 9:31Speaker 03

  exist, the technology is pretty archaic. They literally milk a snake for venom, inject it into a horse or another large animal, and then harvest the antibodies that that animal produces. These AI-designed proteins are, in theory, quicker and more cost-effective to produce. They circumvent the need to use animals. And some researchers even told reporters that they think the proteins might not need to be refrigerated, which means that they could be stored and used in remote, hot, tropical places where snake bites still pose significant health risk.

• 10:05Ira Flatow?

  Wow, that's a win-win-win. I mean, now if you can use this to design proteins for the antivenin, could you also use it to design other kinds of drugs or pharmaceuticals?

• 10:15Speaker 03

  100%. This is all part of a larger movement to use AI to predict protein structures and functions in ways that we couldn't have fathomed even years ago. It builds off of the AI protein research that won last year's Nobel Prize in Chemistry. And David Baker, who was one of those Nobel laureates, is actually the senior author of this paper. The authors very explicitly say in their paper that beyond snake bites, these results show how AI could be used to democratize drug discovery, especially for places that are strapped for resources and for diseases that have been historically neglected.

• 10:53Ira Flatow?

  All right, we're going to end with something, you know, one of our famous Science Friday stories we like to talk about on a Friday night. And this one is research into tattoos of ancient mummies? Am I getting this right?

• 11:06Speaker 03

  You're totally right. Researchers just applied the technology used to study dinosaur fossils to visualize tattoos on 1,000-year-old mummies in Peru. I don't know if any of you have ink like I do, but if you do, you're probably aware that your tattoo fades and bleeds over time. And that's a real challenge for scientists trying to visualize ancient skin art. The technique these researchers used allowed them to see these tattoos through that fade and through that ink bleed. It's called laser stimulated fluorescence. Essentially, they shine a laser on the mummy so the skin glows, and that creates a sharp contrast with the black ink. They used that technology to look at a wide range of tattoos, some that were geometric

• 11:51Speaker 03

  shapes, some that were based on nature, like vines, animals, and scales. And the big surprise was that the tattoo lines were shockingly thin. They were 0.1 to 0.2 millimeters wide, which is finer than the lines that most modern tattoo needles lay down today. The authors think that they were laid down using a very fine instrument like a cactus needle or a sharpened animal bone, but there's still disagreement from outside experts on that. The bigger picture here is that by learning who was tattooed, what those tattoos depicted, and how they were laid down can reveal the deeper cultural meaning of skin art.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  So whether it's aesthetic, therapeutic, ritual, or a class signal, the smaller picture is that all of us with tattoos can now hope that we become mummified. So 1,000 years from now, scientists can gape at our really cool skin art.

• 12:44Ira Flatow?

  Well, there's no way to top that ending, Jason.

• 12:48Ira Flatow?

  We wish, I hope you get your wish on that one. Jason Din, climate editor at Atmos in Washington. Thank you for being with us today.

• 12:55Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure.

• 12:58Ira Flatow?

  We have to take a break, and when we come back, some good news about the HPV vaccine.

• 13:04Speaker 04

  We have a vaccine that prevents against six cancer types. To me, it's a public health revolution.

• 13:11Ira Flatow?

  Stay with us.

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Science Friday is supported by PBS, presenting Going Wild. If you love learning about the natural world and meeting the scientists who help us understand it, be sure to check out the new season of Going Wild with Dr. Ray Wynn Grant. It's the chart-topping and Webby Award-winning podcast from the folks at Nature on PBS, now with a video companion series. In this season of Going Wild, host acclaimed wildlife ecologist Dr. Ray Wynn Grant heads out into the field to explore the animals, people, and stories that make nature worth saving. Stops include a hibernating black bear den in Arkansas and an underwater shipwreck site off the Florida coast. If you're looking for a place to start, check out the season's debut episode, where Ray joins beloved biologist and influencer Jordan King in the Florida Everglades to learn about

• 14:01Speaker 00

  his unlikely journey into science and how to study a wetland when it's not very, well, wet. So don't miss out. Follow Going Wild with Dr. Ray Wynn Grant on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:15Speaker 05

  Support for Science Friday comes from USA for UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency. Here's a problem: How do you keep a house above freezing when the windows are gone and the power is out for 16 hours a day? In Ukraine this winter, the answer fits in a box: reflective insulation, plastic sheeting to cover broken windows, draft blockers for the doors. Simple materials installed the same day a team arrives. Your gift delivers them, and until December 31st, it's matched. Donate at unrefugees.org/friday.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  WNYC is supported by Bear. Every day in America, science delivers. Not just in the headlines, but in the moments that matter most. Science is a journey, one of curiosity, persistence, and progress. It's about asking questions, testing, learning, and improving again and again. Science delivers harvests that feed families, tools that help farmers grow more with less, and new ways to protect land for generations to come. Let's keep asking, keep testing, keep discovering, so science can keep delivering. Learn more at sciencedelivers.com. I'm Kevin Roos.

• 15:28Speaker 06

  And I'm Casey Newton. And together, we've been tech journalists for decades. Now, we're your hosts of Machine Gods, a new podcast from NPR that makes sense of what AI means for your work, your life, and all of our futures. Twice a week, we'll be exploring the biggest moves in tech and give you unmatched access to the real titans of industry. Listen to Machine Gods from NPR on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 15:57Flora Lichtman?

  A new study found that cervical cancer deaths in young women have plummeted since the introduction of the human papillomavirus vaccine. HPV is the most common sexually transmitted infection, and it can cause cancers of the mouth, throat, and sexual organs. It's also the cause of nearly every case of cervical cancer. The vaccine for HPV was introduced in 2006. Now, almost 20 years later, cervical cancer deaths in young women are down 62%. And researchers say there is only one reason this could be: the HPV vaccine. Joining me now to talk about this is Dr. Ashish Deshmukh, professor of public health sciences

• 16:39Flora Lichtman?

  and co-leader of the Cancer Prevention and Control Program at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston. Welcome to Science Friday.

• 16:48Speaker 04

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 16:50Flora Lichtman?

  Let's talk about your study, Ashish. So just so I have my mind around it, your study looked specifically at women under 25. Is that right?

• 16:57Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 16:58Flora Lichtman?

  OK, and in that group, you are seeing this big drop in deaths from cervical cancer over the last decade or so. And that drop correlates to when you would expect to see a drop in deaths because of the introduction of the HPV vaccine. Is that right?

• 17:15Speaker 04

  That's absolutely right. Because the way the three vaccination works, it first prevents infections, HPV. They will then after observe decline in cervical cancer incidence rate and then drop in cervical cancer deaths.

• 17:31Flora Lichtman?

  Got it. OK, so this is a correlation study. Did you look at whether there are other possible explanations for why you see deaths from cervical cancer dropping?

• 17:41Speaker 04

  It's unlikely because we know that sexual behaviors have not changed in the United States. We know that the three vaccination rates are increasing. We speculate that there are two possible reasons. Both attributable to HPV vaccination. So individuals who received HPV vaccine, they are likely to have benefited. But in addition to that, there may be substantial health protection attributable to HPV vaccination.

• 18:06Flora Lichtman?

  Did you see changes in cervical cancer rates or precancers as well?

• 18:12Speaker 04

  We did. Because in our previous research, we observed that so the HPV vaccination was introduced in 2006. And our speculation or hypothesis for this study was that we will observe a decline in cervical cancer deaths. And this hypothesis was driven by the fact that we published previous studies. A few years ago, we published another study in JAMA, where we observed that among youngest age group, cervical cancer incidence rate or occurrence of new cases of cervical cancer dropped 62% again 12% per year. And what we observed in this study is that the decline in mortality followed decline in incidence.

• 18:50Flora Lichtman?

  Tell me a little more about HPV. There are multiple strains, right?

• 18:54Speaker 04

  Yes. So it's the most common sexually transmitted infection. There are more than 200 types of HPV. But types 16 and 18, they're responsible for causing most cancer types.

• 19:06Flora Lichtman?

  And does the vaccine cover 16 and 18?

• 19:09Speaker 04

  It does. So the first iteration of vaccine, it covered HPV types 6, 11, 16, and 18. And the most decent version of the vaccine prevents nine HPV infection types.

• 19:20Flora Lichtman?

  Does the vaccine give you lifelong immunity?

• 19:24Speaker 04

  From what we have seen so far, from the observational studies and studies from other countries is that as a result of vaccination, there has been substantial decline. Now, lifelong immunity, it's area of current research. But again, our speculation is that it would prevent infection, at least causing infection over substantial duration of time.

• 19:48Flora Lichtman?

  So your study looked at young women under 25, and the changes were profound, but we're also talking about a relatively small group. I mean, the drop was from 50 to 60 deaths a year to 13. Is that, is that right?

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 20:03Flora Lichtman?

  So when does cervical cancer usually onset in women?

• 20:08Speaker 04

  Sure. So cervical cancer is still fairly rare in this age group. The peak age at cervical cancer onset is among women who are in their 30s and 40s, but most cases of cervical cancer is unobserved.

• 20:22Flora Lichtman?

  That's interesting that it's 30s and 40s. That seems still relatively young.

• 20:27Speaker 04

  It is. So cervical cancer is the type of HPV-associated cancers that occurs among young individuals.

• 20:34Flora Lichtman?

  Hmm. When might we expect to have data on whether we're going to see the same drops in cervical cancer in this older cohort?

• 20:42Speaker 04

  I think we'll have to wait for at least 10 to 15 years. And what we speculate is that in future years, we will see even greater decline because the birth cohort as they age and the burden of HPV-associated cancer or number of cases are higher in women who are in their 30s and 40s. So if the effect that we see persists in the consecutive age groups, we will see substantial drop in cervical and other HPV-associated cancers in next 10 to 15 years.

• 21:14Flora Lichtman?

  Do you think that cervical cancer could be eradicated with this vaccine?

• 21:18Speaker 04

  It can. So there are two ways we can prevent cervical cancer through HPV vaccination. So we call it primary prevention or primary prophylaxis and screening for cervical cancer. So if we ensure that HPV vaccination rates are adequately achieved, we have a goal in front of us, 80% HPV vaccination coverage. And if we ensure that nearly all women are adherent to cervical cancer screening guidelines, it's possible that we completely eradicated HPV-associated cervical cancers.

• 21:49Flora Lichtman?

  That's amazing.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  It is amazing. And I think what's most amazing about cervical cancer and other HPV-associated malignancies is that these are types of cancers that are completely preventable through HPV vaccination. We have a vaccine that prevents against six cancer types. To me, it's a public revolution.

• 22:08Flora Lichtman?

  Well, I was going to say, are there other cancers that could be eradicated through vaccines? Or is there something special about this group of HPV-related cancers?

• 22:17Speaker 04

  I think it's special about HPV vaccination because of the fact that it's infection-driven malignancy. And this is the only vaccine which has been shown to be highly efficacious for all six cancer types. It's special about HPV vaccine that it has the potential to eliminate all six cancer types.

• 22:35Flora Lichtman?

  So you've been studying HPV and related cancers for many years. Why does this interest you?

• 22:41Speaker 04

  So I started studying HPV-associated malignancies since my doctorate program. I went to my mentor and he suggested I have several projects and one of those was focused on anal cancer. I was intrigued by anal cancer because I lost my grandmother to anal cancer. At that time, I had no idea that anal cancer is caused by HPV and that's how I got into HPV research.

• 23:03Flora Lichtman?

  Yeah, it's personal.

• 23:05Speaker 04

  It is.

• 23:06Flora Lichtman?

  You know, I was thinking too, women's health, you know, as we know, has not historically been given as much attention. And of course, these HPV cancers can affect both men and women, but you know, for cervical cancer, obviously only affects people with a cervix. And I was wondering if for you it was a conscious choice to sort of spend your time on this, when sometimes women's health can be overlooked.

• 23:28Speaker 04

  It is and it is area of major concern. I mean, not just cervical cancer. If we look at HPV-associated anal cancer among women, it has been recognized as one of the fastest rising causes of cancer incidence and mortality. Anal cancer is rising among women at three to five percent per year. And there's nothing we can do except HPV vaccination. It is potentially preventable, similar to cervical cancer. And we're trying our best to ensure that we identify ways to prevent anal cancer, again, both through primary prevention and secondary prevention. So I feel that for HPV-associated cancers and when we think of women's health, it's imperative that we focus on HPV-associated malignancies.

• 24:10Flora Lichtman?

  I remember when the HPV vaccine was rolled out in 2006. I was too old at the time to be eligible, but I remember distinctly some opposition, especially from parents, because HPV is a sexually transmitted infection. And parents were like, well, my kids aren't sexually active, so they don't need this. Do you still encounter that mindset?

• 24:34Speaker 04

  We do. I think there is still a strong hesitancy towards H P vaccination. And again, I think this hesitancy is driven by the fact that the vaccine has been always perceived as, as, as something that prevents sexually transmitted infection. I think we need to change the, the way we talk about H P vaccine and think of this as a cancer prevention vaccine, an infection prevention vaccine. I think that may help change parental perception, but in our research, we do see substantial vaccine hesitancy. In fact, uh, in one of our recent studies, we observed that among parents of unvaccinated adolescents, sixty percent still lack intent to initiate H P vaccination, which is a major barrier in the U S.

• 25:15Flora Lichtman?

  Wow, sixty percent. So it just, it needs a rebrand.

• 25:20Speaker 04

  Right.

• 25:21Flora Lichtman?

  How old can you be to and get the H P vaccine and have it still be effective?

• 25:26Speaker 04

  Sure. So the vaccine eligibility is up to age forty five and it is covered by insurance.

• 25:34Flora Lichtman?

  So, uh, you know, we've been reading, seeing everywhere that childhood vaccination rates have been dropping since the COVID pandemic. Are, are we seeing the same thing with H P V?

• 25:43Speaker 04

  We are. So in the most recent birth cohort, H P vaccination rates have dropped. And this drop is, I think, up to four percent. What we're also observing is in last three to four years collectively, H P vaccination rates have stagnated across age groups.

• 26:01Flora Lichtman?

  What about in other countries?

• 26:02Speaker 04

  So, uh, we don't have similar evidence in other countries. Uh, I know in other developed nations like Australia, vaccination rates have been high and they have been able to achieve or that closer to achieving fifty percent vaccination goal.

• 26:19Flora Lichtman?

  Is that our goal too? What's your goal? What do you want to see?

• 26:22Speaker 04

  So we need to ensure that we vaccinate all that adolescents who are eligible.

• 26:27Flora Lichtman?

  One hundred percent is your goal.

• 26:29Speaker 04

  One hundred percent is our goal.

• 26:31Flora Lichtman?

  I'm going to give you Ira's blank check question. Ashish, if you had a blank check, you could do what you wanted, resources were no issue. Where would you take your research? What would you do?

• 26:42Speaker 04

  So I will ensure and I'll try my best to ensure that both primary and secondary prevention is possible. There are several countries, India, China, for instance, where there's substantial burden of cervical cancer. But we don't have adequate supply of HIV vaccination. Things are changing now in recent years. So worldwide, we'll ensure that HIV vaccination is adequately administered for cancers such as anal cancer. We don't have screening infrastructure, which is a steep climb for us because it's also driven by the fact that we don't have enough providers who are adequately trained to perform anal cancer screening.

• 27:23Speaker 04

  So if we have resources, we'll ensure that screening is available, particularly in communities that are marginalized and underserved.

• 27:32Flora Lichtman?

  Ashish, thank you so much.

• 27:34Speaker 04

  Thanks a lot.

• 27:35Flora Lichtman?

  That's about all the time we have for now. Dr. Ashish Deshmukh, Professor of Public Health Sciences and Co-Leader of the Cancer Prevention and Control Program at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston.

• 27:49Ira Flatow?

  That's all the time we have for today. Lots of folks helped make this show happen, including Sandy Roberts. George Harper. Annie Nero. Jason Rosenberg. I'm Ira Flatow. Thanks for listening.