Pod Insights Science Friday Meet Leaders Of 3 Local Conservation Projects | Preserving ‘Space Junk’ Left On Mars About this episode What makes three very different conservation projects so successful? These experts say it’s getting the community involved. And, archaeologists make a case for tracking and preserving artifacts left on Mars to chronicle humans’ first attempts at interplanetary exploration.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 WNYC is supported by Bear. Science is about asking questions, testing, trying again. It's not easy, but it's relentless. It evolves, and that's why science delivers. Learn more at sciencedelivers.com.
0:18 Speaker 01 Some archaeologists are calling for preserving human-made artifacts on Mars.
0:23 Speaker 02 I don't see a difference between finding a, say, arrowhead in East Africa versus the Curiosity's helicopter broken blade that is now discarded on Mars.
0:35 Speaker 01 It's Thursday, December 26th, and you're listening to Science Friday.
0:42 Speaker 01 I'm Sci-Fry producer Charles Bergquist. We've left quite a bit behind in space: satellites, moon buggies, Mars rovers, even human excrement. Some people have dubbed this "space jump." But what if future archaeologists wanted to trace the chronology of space exploration through those items? Should they be preserved? We'll get to that story in a bit. But first, we're going to take a look at how some local communities are taking environmental matters into their own hands and getting results. It's part of a newsletter series called Tiny Nature Triumphs from our digital producer, Emma Gomez, who has those stories.
1:15 Speaker 03 Ever wonder if that friendly-looking plant in your yard is invasive? And once you find out, what do you do next? Well, there are some programs across the country that aim to convince homeowners to remove invasive species from their yards and gardens. In Hamilton County, Indiana, their trade-in program allows homeowners to replace invasives with a native plant from the area for free. Claire Lane is an urban conservationist at Hamilton County's Soil and Water Conservation District, and she runs that program. Welcome, Claire. Hi. So could you tell me something like, roughly, how many people's backyards in Indiana have invasive plants? Or what does the scale of this look like?
1:53 Speaker 04 There are so many invasives. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a yard that probably doesn't have one. A lot of these plants have been introduced through the landscape trade and then started escaping into natural areas. And a lot of people don't see that happening because it's not like your invasive plant is getting up and walking out of your yard. So a lot of people think, well, you know, mine's not invasive. But what they don't really see is those birds that are at their burning bush right now, picking up the berries and then flying away to a nearby park or roadside and then planting that berry for them. That's
2:33 Speaker 04 how most of these plants spread and it's conceptually just a little harder for people to follow. But they're so common and so pervasive that really they're pretty much everywhere.
2:45 Speaker 03 Right. And I mean, even though a lot of them are beautiful, invasive species aren't really that great for the environment of a city because they can reproduce pretty fast. It sounds like they can just take out habitats for native plants. And without those native plants, local insects, pollinators, and other wildlife in the ecosystem suffer, right?
3:05 Speaker 04 Yeah, those species really are the foundation of our entire ecosystem. You can almost think about it like a house of cards where we're at the top and these insects are that foundation at the bottom. And the invasive species can really tear that whole house of cards down. And we've found that once people are educated about the harm the invasive species cause, they want to be part of the solution and they want to help. And that's the exciting part of all of this. And there are some great native alternatives that you can choose from that have the same great color, but are actually an asset to our environment versus a detriment.
3:46 Speaker 03 Right. So tell me more about how your trade-in program comes in to solve the problem that you outlined with these invasive plants.
3:54 Speaker 04 Yeah, so we were finding that a lot of people just didn't know how to get started. Maybe knew that they had an invasive species, but weren't sure what to do with it. So this program allows us to help people break it down into some smaller steps. We are there to help people identify what species they have on their property. And then with the trade-in program, they can remove that invasive species and then they apply on our website. And they get a coupon code to get for free some native replacements out of our 40 different native species they can choose from.
4:33 Speaker 03 That's a lot.
4:33 Speaker 04 Yeah, it is, it is, but it's it's less overwhelming than walking into a garden store and not knowing at all where to start and what to look for. So I think that really helps people move along because they have a list of choices right in front of them.
4:48 Speaker 03 I love that. That's like taking away the decision fatigue of finding a new plan or it's like matchmaking.
4:54 Speaker 04 Yeah. We hear a lot of, you know, I've wanted to deal with this burning bush or this pear tree or whatever species it is for a long time. I'm so excited that I finally got the push to do it. I'm so excited to have this opportunity to replace it. They get to see and meet other people who are doing the same thing, which I think builds a lot of community and is exciting. So it's really motivating for us and for them because everybody's excited about it.
5:23 Speaker 03 That is Claire Lane, an urban conservationist with Hamilton County, Indiana's Soil and Water Conservation District. Thank you so much, Claire.
5:30 Speaker 04 Thanks.
5:31 Speaker 03 If you want to see if your yard has invasive plants, Claire recommends doing an online search for your area's list of invasive species. You can also check in with your local Soil and Water Conservation District to learn more about what removal options are available in your area. Speaking of protecting ecosystems, if you've lived in one place for a while, you've probably noticed the landscape change over time. Maybe the trees are bigger or an extreme weather event seriously altered the landscape. But there aren't a lot of great ways to keep track of those changes. That's where Chronologue comes in. It's a series of photo stations set up in natural areas all over the world. You might come across one if you're out enjoying nature, where you'll see a sign inviting any passerby to take a picture of the habitat
6:15 Speaker 03 and upload it to a database, where it then becomes part of a years-long time-lapse video. And researchers can use that video to see how the habitat has changed over time. Jake Rose is a co-founder of Chronolog. Welcome to Science Friday.
6:29 Speaker 05 Hi, thanks for having me. I'm a fan of the show.
6:31 Speaker 03 Thanks for being here. So do you have like a concrete example of how these Chronolog stations have helped scientists or the communities that they're in?
6:40 Speaker 05 Yeah, so controlled burns are a really great use case. Some people have a really hard time understanding why you would set fire in the woods. How is setting fire in the woods a good thing? And so scientists will set up two Chronolog photo stations, one in an area that's not managed, that's full of brush, that's kind of ripe for a wildfire, and another time lapse where there's prescribed fire and the forest is manicured and you can see the difference of a healthier forest. And then there's the things we didn't expect. Scientists will set up a photo station in Florida, monitoring one thing, and then Hurricane Helene or Hurricane Ian will blow through. And now it's really important to have a baseline of what the mangroves look like before the storm, the damage after the
7:23 Speaker 05 storm, how long it takes to recover. It's a great tool for scientists to learn.
7:28 Speaker 03 That's really cool. So I come across one of these stations, put my phone in, take a picture, and email it to Chronolog. But how do I actually see the time lapse that I'm contributing to?
7:40 Speaker 05 Yes, so you get an email reply back with the time lapse video. So while you're standing in front of the basin, or the river, or the desert, or the wetland, you get to see how that scene has changed over time while you're still standing in front of it. Every park has a story to tell. When a person is out in nature enjoying that scenery, they want to help in some way. They want to give back. And when you give people an option to do something positive, they take that. And that's showing instead of telling. With science, there's a communications hurdle to get over. And when you can show someone a video, they can see the change. They can understand it. And together, we're creating a living archive of our planet that can inform decisions that shape the future.
8:25 Speaker 03 Well, thank you so much for answering these questions, and I cannot wait to visit a Chronolog station myself in the near future.
8:32 Speaker 05 Well, thanks so much. I really appreciate it.
8:34 Speaker 03 To find a Chronolog station near you, check out chronolog.io.
8:40 Speaker 03 And finally, when a dead tree in a city gets cut down, where does it go next? Well, the city of Baltimore does something a little special with them. Camp Small is a city-run lumber recycling program that takes dead trees and turns them into mulch, firewood, and sometimes even beautiful furniture. Sean Preston is a woodworker and yard master at Camp Small. Welcome to Science Friday.
9:02 Speaker 06 Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
9:04 Speaker 03 So before Camp Small was Camp Small, I heard it used to be called the Stump Dump, where dead trees would go to be thrown in a landfill. How did it begin its transformation into the recycling center that it is now?
9:18 Speaker 06 So the Stump Dump was just the five-acre site where Baltimore City Recreation and Parks and Divisional Forestry would bring all of the material from downed trees throughout the city. You know, it's like, on average, 2,000 trees come down every year, and this was the site for housing all of that, you know, housing as much as 9,000 tons a year. So that's, it fills up a football field, you know, 16, 18 feet high. And it became very evident that the site was just a cost to the city.
9:46 Speaker 03 Right, so you guys decided to start recycling that wood instead?
9:49 Speaker 06 Yeah, yeah, so they, um, you know, you walk in the door to us and you're trying to build something at home and you don't really know what you're looking for or quite how to build it. We're longtime woodworkers who have done a lot of that sort of thing, and we take our time to help guide you through it.
10:07 Speaker 03 So the city hands over dead trees and tree stumps to Camp Small, and then they prepare the lumber to get converted into like furniture for businesses or wood for mushroom inoculation. But it goes beyond that, right?
10:19 Speaker 06 Yeah, I feel like the benefits to our community really stretch wide. I mean, probably the thing that we enjoyed the most, that we do a lot of, is working with city schools to do outdoor classrooms. We're in an urban area, you know, and a lot of the children here don't have good access to natural areas. So we build physical classrooms outside, tables and chairs out of logs, so that kids can leave the classroom setting and the teacher can take a group of 30 kids and sit outside on wooden benches and logs and play spaces. You know, we'll truck a whole lot of logs and we set them up so that they create this
10:59 Speaker 06 jungle gym of logs and we'll cut steps and platforms and make it into this like really fun, engaging, interactive thing for kids.
11:08 Speaker 03 If I was a tree, that's where I would want to end up. That is so wonderful.
11:12 Speaker 06 Yes, I agree with that. And also, just like how something simple and that's a natural byproduct of nature can become this thing that gathers communities together, that gives children something to play on. We don't need to look at it as a business. We instead are a city service and a public service.
11:35 Speaker 03 And on a more, a harder note, I know that there was a fire at the yard earlier this month. How are you all managing with the aftermath of that?
11:44 Speaker 06 Well, it was devastating. You know, we had an accumulation of maybe five years' worth of logs stacked on our facility and a fire broke out. We're not really sure how it happened, but we did lose a large inventory of logs. Fortunately, you know, we had the firefighters working really hard to try to save our facilities and our equipment. And when I woke up the next day, I was really relieved that those were still in place. And I think the thing that kind of blew me away was just the response from the community. The amount of people that reached out by phone and by email to offer assistance to us or just to show the love, like that they love what we're doing and that they see the
12:27 Speaker 06 benefits of what we're doing is, yeah, is just completely inspirational. We're really fortunate to be able to keep our program going pretty much uninterrupted. And we're right back at it today, sawing and sorting and doing what we always do.
12:42 Speaker 03 That is Sean Preston, the yard master at Camp Small. Thank you so much, Sean.
12:48 Speaker 06 Thank you. Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.
12:51 Speaker 03 For those in the city of Baltimore, if you're looking for lumber, a raised bed for your garden, or just a log to sit on outside, you can get in touch with Camp Small through their website. To read more about these projects, you can find our entire Tiny Nature Triumph series on our website at sciencefriday.com/triumps. I'm Emma Gomez.
13:13 Speaker 01 After the break, the argument for preserving artifacts on Mars. Stay with us.
13:22 Ira Flatow? Hi, Ira here, reminding you that Science Friday has a dollar-for-dollar donation match, which means that any donation made through December 31st will be doubled. So now is the time to head over to sciencefriday.com/support and make a gift. Our 2025 programming depends on the generosity of our fans and listeners. Again, that's sciencefriday.com/support and thanks.
13:50 Speaker 00 Science Friday is supported by PBS, presenting Going Wild. If you love learning about the natural world and meeting the scientists who help us understand it, be sure to check out the new season of Going Wild with Dr. Ray Wynn Grant. It's the chart-topping and Webby Award-winning podcast from the folks at Nature on PBS, now with a video companion series. In this season of Going Wild, host acclaimed wildlife ecologist Dr. Ray Wynn Grant heads out into the field to explore the animals, people, and stories that make nature worth saving. Stops include a hibernating black bear den in Arkansas and an underwater shipwreck site off the Florida coast. If you're looking for a place to start, check out the season's debut episode, where Ray joins beloved biologist and influencer Jordan King in the Florida Everglades
14:35 Speaker 00 to learn about his unlikely journey into science and how to study a wetland when it's not very, well, wet. So don't miss out. Follow Going Wild with Dr. Ray Wynn Grant on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Science Friday is supported by Planet Visionaries, the podcast created in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Stay tuned for a trailer and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Do you want to hear about visionaries creating a better world? People working in conservation, exploration, science, and tech alongside storytellers imagining and creating a better future. I'm Alex Honnold, professional rock climber and founder of the Honnold Foundation, bringing you season six of Planet Visionaries. This season, I speak to guests like National Geographic photographer Tom Pesciak and Anna Rattman,
15:20 Speaker 00 executive director of the Jane Goodall Institute, USA, in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Watch Planet Visionaries on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. WNYC is supported by Bear. Every day in America, science delivers, not just in the headlines, but in the moments that matter most. Science is a journey, one of curiosity, persistence, and progress. It's about asking questions, testing, learning, and improving again and again. Science delivers harvests that feed families, tools that help farmers grow more with less, and new ways to protect land for generations to come. Let's keep asking, keep testing, keep discovering, so science can keep delivering. Learn more at sciencedelivers.com.
16:04 Ira Flatow? I'm Kevin Ruess. And I'm Casey Newton. And together, we've been tech journalists for decades. Now, we're your hosts of Machine Gods, a new podcast from NPR that makes sense of what AI means for your work, your life, and all of our futures. Twice a week, we'll be exploring the biggest moves in tech and give you unmatched access to the real titans of industry. Listen to Machine Gods from NPR on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
16:34 Ira Flatow? Over the past 60 years or so of space exploration, we humans have left some, well, we've left some things behind. I'll put it that way. Be it bits of satellites, moon buggies, Mars rovers, even human excrement, all among the countless pieces of evidence of our presence that some people have dubbed "space junk." But what if many, many years from now, future archaeologists want to trace the chronology of space exploration by examining these items we have left in our wake? Shouldn't they be preserved? Well, my next guest argues just that in a new paper in the journal Nature Astronomy. Dr. Justin Holcomb is an assistant research professor at the University of Kansas
17:19 Ira Flatow? and the Kansas Geological Survey in Lawrence. Welcome to Science Friday.
17:24 Speaker 02 Thanks for having me.
17:25 Ira Flatow? Talk me through your argument here. Why should we be preserving all these artifacts from space exploration?
17:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, so the general kind of lens through which we see all this material preserved across various celestial bodies in our solar system is not really as space trash or galactic litter, but actually as space heritage or cultural resources. And so we see this material as just the extension of our species' kind of long history of migration, first out of Africa and then out of our atmosphere and into off-Earth environments. And so We just see this kind of long kind of context of our species' history of migration. And the material left behind is essentially the material footprint of that movement.
18:13 Ira Flatow? And how do we go about preserving them? What do you mean by that?
18:17 Speaker 02 Well, you know, I think that there are simple ways that we're talking about in the sense of just mitigating disturbances to various areas, like not landing exactly on Tranquility Base or where Curiosity Rover has driven around on Mars. But, you know, when it comes to legislation, that's something that is being worked on and is a much, you know, kind of thornier problem.
18:42 Ira Flatow? Are we talking at all about how these items might be useful for future humans, you know? Maybe they could take these parts and use them later?
18:51 Speaker 02 That's a crucial point because it's not just the fact that the material left behind is important from a historical context, but that they also become data archives of recording surface conditions on various celestial bodies once they're left behind.
19:08 Ira Flatow? I know that some people are going to be listening to this and thinking aliens will find these things and learn about humans. A good possibility, perhaps?
19:18 Speaker 02 Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, why not? I think the idea of keeping things free from disturbance or destruction is for future generations. It could be 1,000 years from now or 100 years from now, or say another, say it was aliens visiting in a million years from now, who knows? But I do think that the idea that these material objects represent more than just trash, they represent a reflection of us, of our presence, is important.
19:51 Ira Flatow? Yeah, as an archaeologist, this is sort of like how we dig up fossils or other things on Earth, right?
19:57 Speaker 02 Exactly, exactly. You know, I think I don't see a difference between finding a...
20:05 Speaker 02 Say Arrowhead, or what we would call a projectile point on, in East Africa versus the Curiosity's helicopter Broken Blade that is now discarded on Mars. Those are both kind of material representations of human activity and our exploration and our behaviors.
20:26 Ira Flatow? Well, I share your enthusiasm and I look forward to the day when we can all go out there and find the stuff we left behind.
20:33 Speaker 02 Thank you so much, and thank you for having me.
20:35 Ira Flatow? You're welcome, Dr. Justin Holcomb, Assistant Research Professor at the University of Kansas and the Kansas Geological Survey in Lawrence.
20:46 Speaker 01 That's it for today. Tomorrow, we ask three experts their picks for the most important science news of the year. Lots of folks helped make this show happen, including
20:55 Speaker 04 Jordan Smudgick. Rasha Reedy.
20:57 Speaker 03 Shoshana Buckspahn.
20:59 Speaker 01 Phyllis Somers. And many more. I'm Sci-Fry producer Charles Burquist. Thanks for listening. We'll see you soon.
Previous The Top Dino Discoveries Of 2024 | Can Spiking Eggnog Kill Bacteria From Raw Eggs? Next Health, Astronomy, And Climate Experts On 2024’s Coolest Science Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated