Could a whale swallow a human, 'Whalefall' style?

"Whalefall" is a race against time, and sperm whale digestion. We get into the gooey gut science and what it took to bring it to the big screen.

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• 1:02Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Flora, and you're listening to Science Friday. If you've been scrolling or been to the movies lately, you may have seen the absolutely nutso trailer, and I mean that in the most loving way, for the movie Whalefall, which is about a guy who gets swallowed by a sperm whale.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  I'm in the whale. Help me. It may sound far-fetched, but the film and the book it's based on really takes on the ins and outs, but especially the ins of sperm whale biology. We're here today with Whalefall director Brian Duffield. Hey, Brian.

• 1:42Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  And Shane Garro, sperm whale expert. Hey, Shane.

• 1:46Speaker 04

  Hello.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  And a heads up, we reserve the right to give some minor spoilers, but we will not ruin the movie for you. Okay. Brian, what do you think a whale would think of this movie?

• 2:00Speaker 03

  We talk about that a lot because, you know, they're getting closer and closer to decoding the sperm whale language. And I'm really nervous about what that review will do to like our tomato score.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Because there's a lot of clicks and sounds.

• 2:17Speaker 04

  Well, I have to say, like, I was exceptionally happy how the whales looked and how they sounded in particular.

• 2:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24Speaker 04

  Like that, that the, the sound wasn't using elephants or other animals.

• 2:29Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good.

• 2:30Speaker 04

  You know, they look great.

• 2:31Speaker 03

  Except we don't know what they're saying. And so it's like, hopefully they're saying like somewhat appropriate stuff in the movie. So, um, but yeah, hopefully they would dig it because I mean, it's, we're, we're very

• 2:44Speaker 03

  fond of our whale and, and we definitely made the movie out of a love for these animals. So if anything, I think they would probably just be annoyed that this guy got in the way of lunch.

• 2:56Speaker 02

  I mean, Brian, do you have a relationship with whales that preceded this movie? Are you like someone who's been on 50 whale watching trips?

• 3:03Speaker 03

  I've been on a bunch, yeah. I, yeah, I always loved them. Like, I grew up as a big dinosaur kid, and I think, you know, that's kind of the closest thing you can really get to it. And then also, I, you know, I grew up in a very conservative Christian household. And so Jonah was always like my, my go-to Bible story. And I remember getting like a very Christian, I guess, just a comic book about Jonah where it talked about a guy who had been swallowed in, you know, in quotes, in reality, like in the 1800s, and they had gotten him out and he was all burned up by his stomach acid and everything. And like a lot of the, the content I was growing up with, there's a lot of, it was like proving the Bible is true kind of stuff.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  And I just remember just being like, there's acid in there and this guy's like walking around burned all up. And so that was always just in my, in my DNA. And then, yeah, and then as I got older, getting the chance to go on whale watching trips. And, and then I swam with whale sharks, uh, like probably a decade ago, um, which aren't technically whales. But that was like a real moment of like, they're so immense and they're so beautiful. And I, I kind of had a reborn fascination of them through that.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Shane, so the, the main storyline here is that a guy gets swallowed by a whale. Is that possible? Could a sperm whale swallow a human being?

• 4:27Speaker 04

  I mean, you're talking about the world's largest tooth predator, right? And this is something that eats giant squid. That's sort of this amazing battle between a giant squid and a school bus-sized whale that happens every day somewhere. It's happening right now somewhere out in the oceans. And it turns out that actually, yeah, sperm whales have probably the largest esophagus. So if you get a really, really big sperm whale, uh, you know, it, it's technically possible to be swallowed. Yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 03

  And a smaller person. Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  Like Jacob Elordi is not fitting down the throat. Yeah.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  But like, is it like a tube, like, you know, would I feel like I was going through a tube at the McDonald's Playland or?

• 5:09Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, it's not going to happen without you noticing. I mean, uh, yeah, I mean, the, the esophagus can be sort of 30 to 40 centimeters in diameter. So that's, you know, more like, I guess, fitting through a tennis racket or something, maybe a little bit bigger than that. And that's really different than a lot of the whales because a lot of whales that we know, like humpback whales, they have huge mouths, but actually tiny little esophaguses because they're basically swallowing fish or krill slurry by the time it goes down. But giant squid are huge, you know, they can be 30 to 60 feet long. And if anyone's had calamari recently, like this is tough, this is a tough body that they're swallowing.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Muscly.

• 5:51Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 5:53Speaker 02

  I mean, Brian, you have an interesting challenge in this movie because much of it takes place inside of a whale. Did you consider filming inside an actual sperm whale?

• 6:05Speaker 03

  Hilariously, that's not the first time I've been asked that.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  Thankfully, no.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  That makes me feel bad, actually.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  No, no. No, it's funny, you know, because they are typically such deep sea dwellers. There's, there's not a ton of endoscopy footage of sperm whales while they're alive. And so it was really, and, and let alone sperm whales, there's almost no footage of giant squid alive and definitely no footage of them really engaged in, in a hunt. I know while we were shooting, there was like that one video that popped up of a dead squid in a sperm whale's mouth, but that's like the extent of the, the footage we have on them.

• 6:46Speaker 04

  No, yeah, it's like a wildlife filmmaking Holy Grail, like to film a sperm whale.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Which like knowing my luck, it'll come out like next like week.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  But yeah, no, like, like Shane said, it's like, you know, we got to, it's like this weird challenge of like, we were filming for the first time in a movie, something that happens probably like hundreds or thousands of times a day on Earth with, between like two of the biggest animals on Earth. And so it's, it's a really unique challenge to try to do something like scientifically accurate, um, that we've never seen before, but that happens all the time.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Did you build a set?

• 7:25Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. We built all kinds of sets. Yeah. We built, um, our character goes through the esophagus, the first stomach and the second stomach, um, and then is definitely too big to go to the, the further stomachs. So we didn't build those. Um, and then we built different versions of each one of those. And then we also built a giant whale, um, one-to-one size animatronic head and had that in a tank that was spinning around and, and moving and swallowing poor Austin. Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, sperm whales are mammals like us, but they have really weird stomachs because they eat squid and eat so far down where the pressure is sort of unimaginable. So they have, actually have four separate chambers. And, uh, and the movie does really well, I think, to show how that kind of might look, despite it not being a place that anything would really want to try to survive in.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, we don't make it seem ideal. Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Shane, I saw your eyes lighting up when Brian said that they built an animatronic one-to-one sperm whale head.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Did it look pretty realistic to you?

• 8:35Speaker 04

  I think that was the thing I was most nervous about is how well the sort of whales look and how they're portrayed and the sounds they make because they live in a world of sound, right?

• 8:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Their world is darkness. So, uh, yeah, I mean, they look fantastic, especially right down to the scarring around the face.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:53Speaker 04

  You know, which is one of the few cues that we actually get to see of them eating these squids and getting scars around their jaw. Um, and so they're mostly like a dark gray color, but often their jaw is quite white from it being scraped up so much, you know? Um, these squid tentacles have barbs and suction cups that, that leave marks behind. Um, and in fact, in many parts of the world's oceans, we know more about what squid are there because we, we've been studying the stomach contents or, or the feces of the sperm whale and not actually being able to get down to 3,000 feet or 6,000 feet to, to take a look at the squid that are there.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Brian, did you consult with experts when you were, you know, trying to figure out the anatomy and what this whale looked like?

• 9:38Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. And it was great because, you know, it's adapted from Daniel Kraus's novel and, and he both co-wrote the screenplay with me and then was just like in, in general partner kind of throughout the whole project. And so he had talked to a lot of experts kind of over the years for the novel. And so we were able to piggyback on, on those. Um, and then, yeah, because there wasn't like a lot of footage of the, the living insides of a, of a sperm whale, you know, it was a lot of, you know, my, my poor family would just see me like watching like autopsies of, of sperm whales that had been beached.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  Um, or like, uh, we had like an endoscopy of a beluga whale, um, that we watched a lot and then we're kind of trying to transpose like, you know, there's probably some similarities with the beluga as opposed to the sperm whale and some differences. Um, and so just watching some pretty gnarly, gnarly stuff. In terms of the anatomy of it, we had Dr. Joy Reidenberg, who is a biologist who, it was funny.

• 10:43Speaker 04

  And all around legend.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  If anyone has cut open more sperm whales, it's probably her.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  Or anything like, she had a show like a decade ago where it was just like her doing autopsies of like a giraffe and, and, and they flew her out to Ireland, maybe it was New Zealand, I can't remember which now, um, where she does like on the beach, she does like a as fast as she can autopsy of, um, a sperm whale. And then she also had an autopsy of, I don't think it was a giant squid, but a very large squid. Um, and Ramsey Avery, our production designer, who just had like the most insane task a production designer ever has where they're usually, you know, have to build buildings and he had to build a living creature. Um, but, um, we watched those a lot, just trying to, to figure it out.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  And then, and then he, Ramsey would kind of run sketches or drawings or, or stuff by Dr. Joy and she would, she would comment. And I think what was so fun about this movie was kind of like the more scientifically accurate we went, but also it just made everything worse for, uh, Austin Abrams' character. The, the whale, the whale is designed to digest food in a fascinating way and poor Austin is a food source. Um, and so it was great that every time like a note would come back, we'd kind of go like, oh, that's so much worse for him. And implement it. Yeah.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  We have to take a break, but, um, when we come back, I want to dive even deeper, I'm sorry, into the science of whale guts.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  That happens all the time.

• 12:16Speaker 02

  And whether someone could escape them. Don't go away.

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  Science Friday is supported by Planet Visionaries, the podcast created in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative. Planet Visionaries is the podcast celebrating the people creating practical, hopeful solutions for our planet's urgent conservation challenges. Season six launches this fall with bold, real solutions. Hear from Anna Rathman of the Jane Goodall Institute on protecting wildlife, Tom Peschak on his epic 396 day journey documenting the entire Amazon, and Lydia O'Shea, a Guatemalan leader, opening doors for indigenous girls to access global education. Hosted by legendary climber and advocate Alex Honnold, each episode goes beyond the

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• 14:15Speaker 02

  Shane, no spoilers, but if a person were swallowed by a whale, could they get out?

• 14:23Speaker 04

  I mean, I think that's the, that's the $24,000 question here. Uh, I think once you're inside, uh, there's a lot of things that are not working in your favor. You know, this is not a place that has evolved for anything to live. In fact, quite the opposite. It expects everything to be dead once you're there.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Give me some examples, some colorful details.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  Uh, well, first of all, you know, you're surrounded, uh, it's not a very big place. You know, these are animals that are diving 3,000 or more feet down and the ocean is crushing them. Like their lungs collapse and their ribs get compressed. So this is not a place where you're going to have lots of space and it's going to be full of things that even the sperm whale can't digest, like squid beaks, you know? I've, I've laid beside an actual giant squid corpse that we found off the Azores and that squid beak is, you know, bigger than the size of my fist. So imagine a parrot beak the size of your fist and hundreds or thousands of them surrounding you. I mean, these are like teeth being pushed against you in every direction while it's trying to digest you.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Like a hideous ball pit.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  Yes, like the worst IKEA ball pit you can ever think of. And so you, I don't, I don't think you would have very much time to consider how you're going to get out. Um, you know, millions of years of evolution of the digestive tract have decided that this is a, this is a place that kills things and absorbs them, you know?

• 15:51Speaker 02

  Uh, the main character had a, a scuba tank, but could you breathe inside a whale's belly?

• 15:56Speaker 04

  You know, I don't know that anyone's really tried or that has, that isn't really a question that's come up in the annals of the science.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  Everyone we asked said that it was the first time someone had seriously asked them that question.

• 16:08Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah. But I think that's, that's the fun of this movie, right? Is like, okay, well, if we suspend our disbelief about how this might happen, what would that look like and how exciting could it be? And how do we match the science with, uh, you know, the thrilling action that, that is this movie? So, you know, I think it's hard to talk about it without talking about it, but I, I think there are lots of resources that, that you might find in, in the belly of a whale, both that should be there and unfortunately that shouldn't, uh, that you could use to sort of MacGyver your way out, uh, should you ever find yourself in this impossible predicament.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Yes, that's news you can use everybody, just tips.

• 16:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, the movie's a great how to guide.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  Yes. It's a way, ways to live by.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Shane, do sperm whales know what they're eating? Like?

• 17:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, so we put small suction cup computers on the backs of the whales that allow us to record their movements and, and, uh, the sounds they make and increasingly also to collect video, um, and, and heart rate. Um, so we know from some of the work that they can see hundreds of different potential prey targets and they're choosing one of those out of this giant biomass that's down there long before the squid can see it. You know, the squid in the sperm whale is, it's like this arms race between the most powerful natural sonar system, how the sperm whale gets to see in the dark and these giant eyeballs that the squid have evolved to sort of get out of the way at the last minute.

• 17:44Speaker 04

  And it's pretty clear that the sperm whales are winning that arms race. Um, but unfortunately, yeah, I think other things do get sucked in. Um, and you know, anytime you cut open a whale, you find a lot of things that shouldn't be there, like plastics and, and other human things that are down there. Um, and I think those are probably eaten accidentally because unfortunately they're, they're pervasive.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Have there been any sperm whale attacks on humans? Like, is there any documentation of a person being eaten by a sperm whale?

• 18:12Speaker 04

  Well, I think sperm whales have been sort of the villain of the ocean, that sort of biblical leviathan or, or the, the monster from the deep for a long time, especially when we were hunting them extensively. You know, before we had fossil fuel, we had whale oil in our machines and in our lamps and it powered our economy. So it's hard to know because I think a lot of those stories are fairly warning to other potential sailors in that when you're trying to kill a family of whales, they will defend themselves. Um, but there hasn't been any stories of humans being eaten by whales, although there's been recently a few stories about people ending up in the mouth of humpback whales, um, because they, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, you know?

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 18:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, this book came out of one of those videos of the kayaker kind of getting gummed by, um, a humpback and how like, when you see the footage, it does give you this weird caveman urge of like, oh no, something bigger is eating us. Um, and of course they can't fit, you know, anywhere kind of past their, their mouth on a humpback.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Brian, what's your dream, um, theater going experience for this? Like, do you want the audience screaming, laughing, crying, throwing up?

• 19:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. And as, and as many of them as possible. So, yeah, I think it was, you know, I remember when we were going around pitching this movie to people and, you know, the pitch was always, you know, it's about a whale that swallows two people, Jay and the audience, and really wanting the audience to feel like they were going on this really insane journey with him and learning more about whales than they probably ever thought they would before. And I think that for me, that's why I like to go to the movies is to go to places I've never been before, even if it means like inside of another animal.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Whalefall comes out today in theaters and if you have the stomach for it, or for, go check it out. It will make, I promise, a fun thing to talk about at your next party. Brian Shane, thank you for being here.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  Thank you, Flora. Absolutely.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Brian Duffield, director of Whalefall, and Shane Garro, whale biologist and biology lead for Project Steady.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  This podcast was produced by Kathleen Davis, and if you had a whale of a good time listening to it, let us know. 877-4sci-fi is our number, or you can leave us a review wherever you listen to the podcast. It really genuinely does help. We'll catch you next time. I'm Flora Lichten.

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