Are My THC Gummies Going Away?

A federal law aims to close the legal loophole that lets stores sell THC products from hemp. Why are laws around cannabis so confusing?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ira Flatow?

  Science Friday is supported by MathWorks, creator of MATLAB and Simulink software for technical computing and model-based design. MathWorks, accelerating the pace of discovery in engineering and science. Learn more at mathworks.com.

• 0:19Flora Lichtman?

  Hey, it's Flora Lixman, and you're listening to Science Friday. Have you ever been in a gas station and seen CBD gummies with THC in them and thought, wait, is this legal? If so, you are right to be dazed and confused. These products are on non-dispensory shelves, thanks to chemistry, maybe some botany confusion, and a weird legal loophole in the 2018 Farm Bill. So that law began regulating so-called hemp with low THC content differently from other cannabis. But enter chemistry, people started extracting THC from that hemp and selling unregulated products that could get you high. Think of the buzzy bev's in the liquor store.

• 1:02Flora Lichtman?

  Now, a bunch of states are working on laws to ban these hemp-derived products that contain even tiny amounts of THC. And a federal law is slated to close this loophole in November, which would end up possibly snuffing out a multi-billion dollar CBD business. Okay, if you're confused, don't worry. Rolling up to sort some of this out is Dr. Cinnamon Bidwell, a clinical psychologist focused on cannabis at the University of Colorado. She co-directs the CU Change Lab. Hey, Cinnamon.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Hi, good to be here.

• 1:34Flora Lichtman?

  Did I get that synopsis right?

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, you hit the nail on the head.

• 1:39Flora Lichtman?

  This is confusing, though, right? Because the law is legislating plants even though CBD and THC can be found in hemp, right?

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And cannabis is, it's a complex plant. We really have to embrace the complexity here. So the Farm Bill essentially draws a line for a certain type of cannabis that has very, very low THC. But biologically, from a plant perspective, cannabis itself is all under one type of plant, right? It just draws a line of, hey, this very specific form of cannabis with very low THC, which is the psychoactive component, gets to sort of fall under this special regulatory umbrella.

• 2:23Flora Lichtman?

  And that's what we're calling hemp, right?

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:25Flora Lichtman?

  Legally. So hemp and cannabis, same plant, botanically?

• 2:29Speaker 02

  This is what, you know, everyone is so confused about, and I'm so happy to try to help clarify. Yes, all of this is cannabis. We are all talking about cannabis and these components of cannabis that interact with the human body to produce different effects. So people know a lot about THC, which is the primary psychoactive component. It's the reason that we're concerned about cannabis being a drug of abuse and has to do a lot with it being scheduled at a very high-risk level and illegal federally. So that's THC. And then there's another prevalent cannabinoid called cannabidiol. People know it as CBD. And that is a lower risk in terms of abuse

• 3:10Speaker 02

  liability, potentially has some important medicinal or harm reduction components. And so the farm bill allowed CBD, or cannabis that was predominantly CBD, to be regulated a little differently with a bit more flexibility, even though they all fall under the same umbrella of all being cannabis.

• 3:31Flora Lichtman?

  Okay. So when we talk about hemp and marijuana, I mean, are we talking about like different varieties of tomatoes, like beefsteak versus cherry or something? Same species, different variety?

• 3:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, essentially, you know, we know how to breed plants. We know how to breed biological species to have certain traits. And so that's what we're talking about with different components of cannabis, different types of cannabis. They're essentially bred to favor certain cannabinoids or certain traits. And hemp-derived CBD has been bred to favor high levels of CBD and lower levels of THC.

• 4:07Flora Lichtman?

  Okay. All right. So these hemp-derived products that you find in gas stations and convenience stores, you know, gummies, tinctures, are they tested differently than what you would find at a dispensary, for example?

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So there are, you know, every state market, every state cannabis market that's more THC focused, has some kind of testing procedures, testing regulations. They do differ across states, but they do tend to include making sure the THC levels are quantified clearly, making sure pesticides are tested, other contaminants, and that tends to all go on the label. And there's a lot of important information that's acquired through those testing processes. With CBD, it's much more patchwork, it's much more state dependent, and some of these products are sold state to state, and they may or may not be tested or regulated much at all.

• 5:03Flora Lichtman?

  You said CBD products, but some of these CBD products have THC in them. Can you trust even the dosage of THC in these sort of hemp-derived CBD products if you're getting them in a gas station rather than a dispensary?

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Correct. The testing is not even guaranteed or systematic, so you really don't know. The other piece is that people have learned that they can basically extract or concentrate that THC from these hemp-derived CBD products. So technically, it was, quote, "safe," and so it could be sold in a gas station. But then they take this THC from that hemp-derived product and create a THC-focused product out of that hemp-derived product. So you can have products that are, quote unquote, "legal," but are essentially predominantly THC. And again, as you said, not tested or not regulated in the same way as a state dispensary-type product.

• 5:58Flora Lichtman?

  And that's what this federal law and these, many of these state laws, that's the loophole that they're trying to close, basically.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  The intention is to close it, and I think, you know, the idea is to prevent these risks. I have concerns just about patchwork legislation and patchwork regulation. I think cannabis industry has been sort of a victim to that for a long time, and I think more comprehensive plans could really get at some of the risks they're trying to get, but also not remove products that are relatively safe or may actually help people. So there's a balance here that might be being lost with this federal law.

• 6:35Flora Lichtman?

  Right. Also, like, why would you regulate based on botany, not based on the actual chemicals that you're trying to regulate?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 6:41Flora Lichtman?

  That doesn't make any sense.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  Exactly. And this arbitrary definition of certain types of this plant have certain regulations and other types of the plant have other regulations creates a lot of confusion, a lot of opportunity for loopholes, and just a lot of confusion from the consumer, right? What's safe, what's not, what's regulated, what's tested? So we're not in a good position there.

• 7:02Flora Lichtman?

  Let's talk about some of these other cannabinoids. I mean, you know, I've seen the laws call out Delta-9 THC, but I've also seen Delta-8 and THC-V on packages.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 7:16Flora Lichtman?

  Are there different kinds of THC? What are we talking about here?

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. So Delta-9 is sort of the main known psychoactive kind of culprit, let's say, for cannabis. And this is, again, the reason why cannabis has a strong abuse liability and is of concern for, you know, for vulnerable populations to be using cannabis. But there are slightly biochemically different versions of THC, like you said, Delta-8 or THC-V, that may still have some psychoactive properties. We're really still working to crack that nut and figure out exactly what the risks of those other forms of THC are that seem biochemically quite similar to THC-9. But, you know, again, that's really new research. We're still figuring that out. And so the regulations kind of allow those forms of THC to sort of fall through the cracks right now.

• 8:06Flora Lichtman?

  Are there other cannabinoids, like, on your radar that you're like, yeah, that's going to be the next one that people are going to look into?

• 8:14Speaker 02

  I mean, people are so innovative and smart. And I think one of the problems is of these patchwork laws is that it's allowing these innovation or alteration of cannabis in a way that may actually produce more forms of it that are psychoactive that we're not even familiar with yet.

• 8:34Flora Lichtman?

  So this federal law that goes into effect, it will restrict hemp-derived products, including ones that really have almost barely detectable levels of THC. Are you hearing from people in this industry? Are people concerned?

• 8:49Speaker 02

  I think certainly from a research perspective, we're worried about not being able to access these projects for research. This is a very important burgeoning area of research that we really need to understand from a public health perspective. And so by creating these restrictions, we're worried that there's just going to be limitations on research, which could really pave the path for therapeutic effects and better understanding of what cannabis does to the human body. And certainly, industry members are concerned and again, just don't necessarily support this idea of regulating the plant based on these arbitrary cannabinoid definitions or separating it out in certain ways. It'd be much better to have an overarching, comprehensive regulation that fit all the

• 9:33Speaker 02

  aspects of cannabis that we do know about.

• 9:36Flora Lichtman?

  What are the big research questions before us?

• 9:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's a really exciting area of research, but one that I think the public doesn't understand how much more work we need to be doing to really understand, how does CBD affect sleep? How can I really get an appropriate dose of CBD that might help my sleep? Those clinical trials, that human work has not really been done, in part because the regulations are so confusing, it makes the research really hard to do. And so by having clearer regulations, by having more permanent and science-based policies, it's going to open the door for research that will actually matter to people. And so things like sleep, pain, anxiety, all these potential therapeutic effects of CBD, we can actually have real data to understand, is there a dose that's helpful?

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Is there a dose that's harmful? Are there concerns about combination with other cannabinoids? And how do we really create a solid evidence base for consumers to make healthy decisions?

• 10:36Flora Lichtman?

  Dr. Cinnamon Bidwell, a clinical psychologist focused on cannabis at the University of Colorado. Thanks for joining us today.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 10:45Flora Lichtman?

  After the break, moving from the pungent vape store in the corner to the pungent slush pile in front of it, I'm talking about an urban wintertime icon, the Dirty Snowbank. What's in it? We'll find out. That's after the break.

• 11:03Speaker 03

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• 11:48Speaker 03

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• 12:05Flora Lichtman?

  Moving from the pungent vape store on the corner to the pungent slush pile in front of that vape store, I'm talking about an urban wintertime icon: the dirty snowbank. Every winter, we watch pristine downy flake transform into a ragu of black, yellow, and brown streaks. Are these frosty sidewalk toilets as disgusting as they seem? My next guest wondered the same thing and dug in to find some answers. Joe Hong is the investigative data reporter for WNYC and Gothamist, and he tested the soiled snowbanks of New York City. Hey, Joe.

• 12:39Speaker 04

  Hey, thanks for having me.

• 12:41Flora Lichtman?

  No problem. Was this a passion project for you?

• 12:43Speaker 04

  A little bit, but I think collectively, as a newsroom, we've always wondered, like, oh, man, what is in that gross snow that's just been sitting there for weeks? And it got to the point where my editor was like, you know, I think we have a lab where we can get this stuff tested. So we decided to... You know, scoop some up, put them in some sterilized bottles and ship them off to this lab in Long Island.

• 13:11Flora Lichtman?

  Well, yes, tell me a little bit more about the process. Where did you collect your snow and why did you select certain spots?

• 13:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. So, we picked three spots. The first one is Williamsburg.

• 13:25Flora Lichtman?

  So, a neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York?

• 13:27Speaker 04

  Yes, yes. And that neighborhood is known for its really bad air pollution. And so, we wanted to see if-

• 13:35Flora Lichtman?

  And hipsters, just-

• 13:36Speaker 04

  Exactly, yeah. Yeah, so we want to know, is the snow sort of like soaking up all this air pollution like a sponge? And so, we went there. And then, I went to the Jackson Heights Roosevelt Avenue subway station.

• 13:51Flora Lichtman?

  So, we're talking Queens now?

• 13:52Speaker 04

  In Queens, yeah. And got snow from under the elevated subway track. We know that the subway tracks, they shed lead from the old lead paint that's on them. And I also found, you know, quite a bit of bird poop from the Avian residents who live under that track that had accumulated on the snow. And then, we went to Washington Heights in Upper Manhattan. We chose that neighborhood because I did a story earlier last year that found that Washington Heights residents had the highest number of 311 complaints related to people not picking up after their dogs. And so, yeah, we wanted to see, like, is this snow just full of dog poop?

• 14:36Flora Lichtman?

  This is very scientific. I mean, were you in rubber gloves? Did you have test tubes? How should I picture it?

• 14:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. So, we just wanted to be very cautious. You know, this is stuff that like we, we look at all the time, but, you know, don't really want to think about or, you know, touch. So, we got one bucket for each sample. And then, we used a brand-new set of rubber gloves and a, and a brand-new scooper for each- One of these samples, so we didn't want to cross contaminate or anything like that.

• 15:06Flora Lichtman?

  Oh, of course.

• 15:07Speaker 04

  So, yeah, so we wore sort of like PPE as we collected them.

• 15:12Flora Lichtman?

  And PPE. And were you, you know, just in terms of methodology here, because we're a science show. Were you scooping up the worst bits in the pile? Were you like homing in on the brown streaks or the pink chunks that we all know are there?

• 15:31Speaker 04

  So we were kind of trying to get a representative sample of the grossness that we see. So that meant skimming like an inch layer off the top of a pile that looked particularly bad. But like if I saw like an actual piece of dog poop, just like sitting on the snow, I didn't just grab that piece of dog poop and put it in my bucket.

• 15:54Flora Lichtman?

  I mean, we have the results. We know, we know what that is.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:57Flora Lichtman?

  Okay, we got to get to the results. Were any of the results PPE?

• 16:02Flora Lichtman?

  And by that, I mean particularly perplexing.

• 16:07Speaker 04

  Yes. Well, I should say they were initially perplexing. And then we talked to some experts, but we found some high levels of metals like chromium and lead as well in some of the snow. And, you know, the levels that we were seeing were significantly higher than what we would find in drinking water. But once we started talking to experts, you know, we realized, oh, if there's even like a little bit of dirt mixed in with the snow. New York City's soil contains just high levels of lead and various types of metals across the board. So that's sort of what caused those readings.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  And I guess another thing in the Jackson Heights sample, you know, I mentioned all that bird poop that I definitely, you know, skimmed some of. What we found, though, is high levels of this bacteria called Enterococcus. And that bacteria is found in fecal matter of warm-blooded animals. And so this was likely dog poop. Or, God forbid, human feces.

• 17:15Flora Lichtman?

  But what about squirrels? Or were there other warm-blooded?

• 17:18Speaker 04

  You know, you're right.

• 17:19Flora Lichtman?

  Rats.

• 17:19Speaker 04

  I did not, rats, yeah, I did not, I didn't consider that. But, uh, so, yeah, that Jackson Heights sample was particularly, um...

• 17:29Speaker 04

  Rich.

• 17:31Flora Lichtman?

  Any other findings that made you scratch your head?

• 17:33Speaker 04

  Not necessarily scratch my head, but the lead readings, I think, were a little eyebrow-raising, shall we say, because, you know, it's not inconceivable that small children will be running around and playing in the snow right after it falls, and they might fall or like grab some off the top and put it in their mouths.

• 17:54Flora Lichtman?

  And eat it. Joe, come on. We all know. Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, I'm not a parent, so I don't want to be sensitive here, but I mean, as a kid, I was known to do that as well. But, you know, seeing these lead readings made me think like, oh, maybe parents should be a little more careful about letting their kids just sort of run around and putting this stuff in their mouths.

• 18:16Flora Lichtman?

  So do you think that these findings are transferable to other cities, or did your experts think this is like New York-specific?

• 18:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I think a lot of the metals that we found, like lead and chromium, have a lot of like industrial applications, or they're sort of the byproducts of like urban environments. And so, yeah, like you're going to find more of these materials in bigger cities. And, you know, the interesting thing, though, if you think about it, is that these snowbanks are just kind of laying bare, like what's already on our streets and what's in our air and in our environment, like year-round. And so, yeah, they're not grosser than the city on a good day necessarily. So these snowbanks are kind of holding up

• 19:04Speaker 04

  a mirror to our city's sort of like air and air quality.

• 19:11Flora Lichtman?

  A brown-yellow mirror. Joe Hong is the investigative data reporter for WNYC and Gothamist, based in New York. This episode was produced by Kathleen Davis. And if you want to complain about all the potty talk in the app, or how we compared poop-encrusted snow piles to a ragu, we always welcome your feedback and also your suggestions and questions. Have you wanted to do an experiment like this? Give us a call. Maybe we can help. 8774 Sci-Fry. We'll catch you next time. I'm Flora Lichtman.