Science Friday
Hosted by Flora Lichtman
Original podcast
In the wake of funding cuts to mRNA vaccine research, we revisit a February story about a promising vaccine for pancreatic cancer.
3,201 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
WNYC Studios is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O O dot com. That's O D O O dot com. WNYC Studios is supported by Wise. Wise, the smart way to manage the currencies you need around the world. With a Wise account, you can send, spend, and receive in up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps. Be smart, get wise.
Download the Wise app today. Terms and conditions apply. WNYC is supported by Bear. Science is about asking questions, testing, trying again. It's not easy, but it's relentless. It evolves, and that's why science delivers. Learn more at scienddelivers.com.
This is Science Friday. I'm Flora Lichtman. Today on the podcast, fighting a hard-to-treat cancer with a vaccine.
This is exciting because we can teach the immune system to recognize other deadly cancers.
This month, the Department of Health and Human Services terminated almost $500 million in mRNA vaccine development grants and contracts. As you know, mRNA vaccines have been used for infectious diseases like COVID, but researchers are also turning to them for certain cancers. Now, HHS has said that these cuts won't affect mRNA cancer research, but some researchers have expressed concern about the impact on their ongoing work. A team at Memorial Sloan-Kettering is developing a new mRNA vaccine for pancreatic cancer, which is notoriously difficult to treat. 90% of people who are diagnosed with pancreatic cancer die from the disease, which is what makes a new possible treatment so exciting.
A few years ago, the team embarked on a small trial to test the vaccine's safety. Sixteen patients with pancreatic cancer got it. And even though it was a small study, the results were promising. Half the patients saw an immune response. And in a follow-up study, they found that in most of those patients, the cancer hadn't relapsed after three years. We spoke to study author Dr. Vinod Balachandran earlier this year about the work, and we wanted to re-air the conversation in light of the recent cuts to mRNA research. This work has not yet been affected by the cuts, according to Memorial Sloan Kettering. Vinod, welcome to Science Friday.
Thank you for having me, Flora.
So why is it so difficult to treat?
So this is an interesting question, and you might think it quite simple to answer, but-
No, I never think it's simple when I ask a science question.
Well, it is deceptively simple, but notoriously still hard for us to answer this. Why is pancreatic cancer, in fact, so challenging to treat when we've made so much progress in many of the other common cancer types, such as breast cancer, prostate cancer, ovarian cancer, et cetera? And as you may know, pancreatic cancer is now the second-leading cause of cancer death in the United States in 2025, and second only to lung cancer. Now, one of the reasons is because we have made tremendous progress in outcomes for many of the other more common cancer types, newer waves of oncology drugs, and
these drugs have had more impact on the other common cancers, but have not impacted outcomes in pancreatic cancer patients.
Do we know why?
So the prior thinking had been that perhaps the immune system could not recognize pancreatic cancer because it was perhaps too difficult or too challenging to recognize. And because of that, an immune therapy that would boost immune recognition of cancer would not be effective in pancreatic cancer.
So in fact, this is one of the interesting conclusions from some of the work that we have done is that this does not appear to be the case. And you can use vaccination to teach the immune system to recognize pancreatic cancer. So I think this is exciting because hopefully this can lead to novel ways through which we can teach the immune system to recognize other high unmet need and deadly cancers.
Right, it upends the assumption that some cancers just can't be treated with immunotherapy.
That's correct. The assumption had been that the primary way we think the immune system recognizes a cancer as foreign. As you know, the immune system is hardwired to recognize pathogens such as viruses and bacteria as foreign, and these pathogens are non-self, if you will. Cancers are, however, self. They are derived from our own tissues and the immune system is in fact programmed to not recognize ourselves as foreign. So for the immune system to recognize cancer, you have to teach it exquisitely to recognize the portions of the cancer that are foreign.
And what we have learned over the past few decades is one of the primary ways through which the immune system recognizes a cancer as foreign is by identifying and recognizing mutated proteins that are found on the surface of cancer cells. So a mutation or a break in the DNA is in fact how a normal cell becomes a cancer cell. The break in the DNA or a mutation causes this normal cell to start dividing abnormally and become cancerous. But through that process, as the cancer cell continues to divide and grow, it accumulates many more of these mutations, so genetic errors.
And some of these genetic errors produce new proteins and they serve as red flags, alerting the immune system that this cell is not behaving properly and needs to be eliminated.
So the immune system can spot them.
Exactly.
Yeah. So I want to talk about the vaccine that you and your collaborators developed. It's an mRNA vaccine, and I think many people are familiar with mRNA vaccines, you know, from COVID. How is yours different?
Right. So a mRNA vaccine for COVID-19, you know the virus. It is the same virus that affects the entire population. Therefore, you can make one vaccine and administer it to the whole population to protect it. But in cancer, since these red flags are individual to each person's cancer, these vaccines for cancer have to be individualized for each patient. So this is a key difference.
Ah, so the flags are different. You could have the same cancer, but the flags that appear on cancerous cells would be different person to person.
That's correct. So because the flags are different for each individual and potentially each individual cancer, vaccines have to be individualized for each patient.
And that's what you did, right?
And that is what we did for pancreatic cancer. That's correct. In this clinical trial, patients had surgery for pancreatic cancer here in New York City. And within 72 hours, we shipped the tumors to colleagues in Germany, where they did genetic analysis of the tumors and then individually made a bespoke vaccine for each patient and then shipped them back to us. And then we began administering their vaccines nine weeks after their surgery. And a feature that allows individualization in a rapid manner is the RNA vaccine technology.
So you made a vaccine for each individual based on samples of cancerous cells. Does that mean this vaccine only works after you've had cancer?
So at the current time, we do need to know what the flags are because we then incorporate those flags in an individual vaccine for each patient. So at the moment, we are able to only create a vaccine after we genetically analyze and identify the flags.
I hear you saying "at the moment," and I'm intrigued.
Yes. So you could envision perhaps over time, as we accumulate more and more information on the flags, could you then create a library of flags, which could then serve as a basis for a preventative vaccine in the future for an individual cancer? So this remains a hypothesis and something that would be an interesting area of exploration in the future. But for us to learn how to do that, we believe these current vaccines, which are preventing cancers from coming back after they have been removed with surgery, will be a key component to understanding the hows of an effective vaccine for cancer.
If you could make the vaccine quick enough, could the vaccine also be used as a treatment to wipe out tumors that are that currently exist?
This is also an important question. Currently, it looks like the vaccines would work best when they are administered to prevent something from occurring or reoccurring.
That's what makes them a vaccine, not a drug.
Yeah.
Could there be ways we might be able to use it for therapy in the future? It's possible, but as of now, I think this still remains an area of active investigation.
After the break, what's the future of this approach?
Could we ever get to vaccines to be able to prevent cancers before they occur? We hope to get there.
Science Friday is supported by PBS, presenting Going Wild. If you love learning about the natural world and meeting the scientists who help us understand it, be sure to check out the new season of Going Wild with Dr. Ray Wynn Grant. It's the chart-topping and Webby Award-winning podcast from the folks at Nature on PBS, now with a video companion series. In this season of Going Wild, host acclaimed wildlife ecologist Dr. Ray Wynn Grant heads out into the field to explore the animals, people, and stories that make nature worth saving. Stops include a hibernating black bear den in Arkansas and an underwater shipwreck site off the Florida coast. If you're looking for a place to start, check out the season's debut episode, where Ray joins beloved biologist and influencer Jordan King in the Florida Everglades
to learn about his unlikely journey into science and how to study a wetland when it's not very, well, wet. So don't miss out. Follow Going Wild with Dr. Ray Wynn Grant on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. WNYC is supported by Bear. Every day in America, science delivers, not just in the headlines, but in the moments that matter most. Science is a journey, one of curiosity, persistence, and progress. It's about asking questions, testing, learning, and improving again and again. Science delivers harvests that feed families, tools that help farmers grow more with less, and new ways to protect land for generations to come.
Let's keep asking, keep testing, keep discovering, so science can keep delivering. Learn more at sciencedelivers.com.
Support for Science Friday comes from USA for UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency. Here's a problem: How do you keep a house above freezing when the windows are gone and the power is out for 16 hours a day? In Ukraine this winter, the answer fits in a box: reflective insulation, plastic sheeting to cover broken windows, draft blockers for the doors. Simple materials installed the same day a team arrives. Your gift delivers them, and until December 31st, it's matched. Donate at unrefugees.org/friday.
Support for Science Friday comes from the Heising Simons Foundation. Unlocking knowledge, opportunity, and possibilities. More at hsfoundation.org.
Let's talk about this latest study. You followed these same patients who were in the previous study, were in this very small trial. What are you reporting this week?
Right, so in this clinical trial, we vaccinated 16 pancreatic cancer patients with custom vaccines made with RNA. And the goal here in this trial was to teach patients' immune systems to recognize their own individual cancers. And from a broader sense, what do you need for an effective vaccine against cancer? Well, what you need is a vaccine that makes lots of T cells. T cells are specialized immune cells in the body that protect us from infections and cancer. And you need these T cells to stick around in the body for long periods of time and continue to function. So this was a key question that we wanted to examine in these patients, namely,
could our vaccination strategy, in fact, not only make many T cells, which we had reported earlier in 2023, but do these T cells, in fact, last in these patients? And do they continue to work?
Did they?
So what we found here is that surprisingly, not only do they stick around, they appear to have the potential to stick around for many, many years. So the average lifespan that we estimated for these T cells was approximately seven years. And in many patients, this number was even higher. So I think the take home from that was that, yes, they do stick around. And yes, they still work. So these are all, we think, have been key barriers for developing effective cancer vaccines.
So this was exciting to see that perhaps this particular vaccination strategy that we had used is a blueprint to make T cells that last and work and could do so even in the most challenging of cancers.
I know that this was a phase one trial. You're looking at it's small, you're looking at safety. But did you see any direct evidence that these immune cells were actually attacking cancer cells? That they were doing the job you wanted them to do?
So this is an important question that you're bringing up, namely, are the T cells that are made by the vaccine doing anything? Because in this scenario, we're vaccinating patients when they do not, in fact, have visible cancer. So I think the closest evidence we have for this was that in the patients in whom the vaccines made T cells, three years after surgery, only two of eight of these responders have seen their cancers return. And in contrast, in the other eight patients who received the vaccines, but the vaccines did not make T cells, seven of eight of these patients
have seen their cancers return after surgery. So these are all correlative pieces of information that are all pointing to the vaccines perhaps doing something. But this requires more extensive, larger testing and larger clinical trials. And we have a larger phase two clinical trial that is currently ongoing to test this exact question.
So you had, you partnered up with pharmaceutical companies. You mentioned Biontech to work with you. Was that a difficult sell? I mean, how did you convince them to take this risk, given that pancreatic cancer has been so difficult to treat?
Right. So pancreatic cancer, as I had mentioned to you, historically has been thought of perhaps as vaccine unsuited because of the fact that it has very few of these flags. So if you have very few of them, perhaps, why would you pick pancreatic cancer as a cancer to vaccinate against? And we had done some work going back now 2017, where we had examined rare survivors of pancreatic cancer. So these are the rare 10% of pancreatic cancer patients that receive treatments that other pancreatic cancer patients do, but have exceptional long-term survival. And our question really there had been, well, what makes these patients different compared to the other patients?
And what we had found in them is that they appear to generate natural immune responses against their pancreatic cancers. So they have T cells that can recognize their red flags in their cancer spontaneously. And this might be impacting their long term survival. So this was really the motivation for the clinical trial because it raised a question, well, if this is happening in the best case scenario in the survivors, could you then replicate this with a vaccine? And this is when we approached our colleagues, both the Genentech and Biontech with this idea to vaccinate pancreatic cancer patients with RNA vaccines. And yes, this perhaps was not a very popular idea
because pancreatic cancer has a track record of drugs not succeeding, but our work was indicating otherwise. And to their credit, they followed the science. And this led to this phase one, the first phase one clinical trial of RNA vaccines for pancreatic cancer. So kudos to that.
Do you see patients?
Yes, I do.
Were any of your patients among the trial participants who had, you know, this good outcome?
Yes, I, some of my patients were also on this phase one clinical trial. And this has been a real joy for me to potentially provide them with new options. So I think this, this has been something that really serves as a primary motivation for me to keep trying to make progress in pancreatic cancer patients.
I mean, it must be very moving for you. I mean, this is such a devastating diagnosis for people. To have even a potential new avenue for treatment must feel really profound.
Well, I think watching patients and their families really battle this disease on daily basis, really, I think, is the greatest inspiration for all of us to really push forth, forge ahead and really try to make progress. And we're really privileged to be able to take part in these types of clinical trials with their support and participation.
With a personalized vaccine, is cost going to be a barrier to getting it to patients who need it?
So I think the hope will be that if we can develop effective vaccines for cancer, personalized or not, this will lead to widespread application across a variety of different cancer types, which would bring down the cost.
Where do you think we're headed? Do you think we're going to see a preventative vaccine for pancreatic cancer or a sort of more universal cancer vaccine in your lifetime?
I think these are very intriguing and forward-looking hopes of the community. Could we ever get to vaccines to be able to prevent cancers before they occur? We hope to get there, but I think to get there, we have to focus on the science and really understand how these vaccines might be working in a secondary prevention, namely preventing cancers from coming back after surgery. And this will hopefully provide us with important clues on how we might be able to use these vaccines for primary prevention for pancreatic cancer or even for other cancer types. So I think it's really quite an exciting global vaccine moment that we are in.
And I think we have many more exciting advances to come in upcoming years.
Come back and tell us about the results of your Phase II trial, please.
We would love to do that.
Thank you for taking the time today.
Thank you so much.
Dr. Vinod Balachandran is associate attending surgeon and director of the Olayan Center for Cancer Vaccines at Memorial Sloan Kettering, based in New York City.
And that is about all we have time for. Lots of folks helped make the show happen, including
George Harper. John Dinkowski.
Annie Nero.
Jason Rosenberg.
I'm Flora Lichtman. Thanks for listening.
Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated