Science Friday
Hosted by Flora Lichtman and Ira Flatow
Original podcast
How the “Final Reckoning” crew used science to bring an underwater stunt to life. Plus, the psychology behind thrill-seeking.
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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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Hi, I'm Flora Lichtman, and you are listening to Science Friday.
Today in the show, what is going on in the minds and bodies of thrill seekers?
A lot of the high sensation seekers I've talked to actually tell me that adrenaline gets in the way of what they want to do.
But first.
The latest installment in the Mission: Impossible franchise, The Final Reckoning, is out today. And if you've seen any Mission: Impossible movies, you know that they go big on the stunts. Tom Cruise is famous for doing his own stunts. We've seen him climb the Burj Khalifa, do a high-altitude skydive from a plane, jump off a cliff on a motorcycle, which got us thinking, is there a science to stunts? And how has stunt technology changed over the years? Here to tell us more is Syfry producer Kathleen Davis, who saw the new Mission: Impossible movie early. Hello, Kathleen.
Hi, Flora. And yes, I can tell you that this new movie has one particular extended stunt that genuinely had me holding my breath. We will have some small spoilers for the movie, but we're not going to spoil the plot for you. About halfway through the movie, our main character, Ethan Hunt, who is, of course, played by Tom Cruise, dives to a submarine at the bottom of the Bering Sea to retrieve an item that's important to the plot. So Ethan Hunt breaks into the submarine. He's in a wet suit with an oxygen tank. He's running around the sub. When it starts rolling, like, picture a submarine rolling down an underwater hill. It starts filling with water. He's trying to find the escape door. It's a very dramatic scene.
And there's a lot of sloshing, a lot of upside-down Tom Cruise. So I wanted to find out what kind of science it takes to pull off a stunt like this. And I called up the movie's stunt coordinator and second unit director, Wade Eastwood, to talk about it.
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
Wade, what is it like to have the coolest job in Hollywood?
Well, it's stressful.
And it's fun. Yeah, no, it's great. It's a great job.
Can somebody actually get hurt if you don't do your job right? Is that part of the stress?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. God, yeah. Yeah, if I don't do my job right, someone's definitely going to get hurt. You know, so it's not just on the actual stunt. It's the whole buildup to the stunt. So it's all the training that the actors or the stunt performers will go through, you know? In mission cases, the actors, because obviously Tom does all his own stunts. But it's the training, putting the right training plan together, making sure that the training plan is adhered to. And that, you know, we don't shortcut anything and that by the time the training plan is finished, the competency level is so accurately there. Because don't forget, these actors, you know, they they're acting, they're not playing themselves. So I have to get them so comfortable within the specific stunt that they can then start acting as
the character doing the stunt, whereas it's hard enough just doing the stunt sometimes. So that's, that's, you know, that's the hardest part.
So I want to talk about this underwater stunt that comes about halfway through the film. Where did the idea for this stunt come from?
You know, Tom's very passionate about certain stunts. He's always wanted to do certain things. And him and McHugh hashed out this, you know, amazing underwater sequence they wanted to do.
And McHugh's the director, correct?
Chris McQuarrie, yes. So, you know, between the two of them, they sort of came up with this crazy ideas. And then, you know, they approached me and we sit down together and how can we execute these crazy ideas? And then I'll come up with a bunch of crazy ideas and we'll, as long as it stays true to the story and the character again. So we start going off on tangents of like, yes, that would be mad, that would be crazy. And it doesn't, it's not true enough. So we have to rein that back in and we go off on another tangent. And we just keep exploding off of these different creative tangents of action. And then eventually hybrid, you know, hybrid it down to, okay, this is what works for the story. And this is, you know, suspense and drama and, and, and action. And we come up with a compromise.
Because there are a lot of different components to this sequence in the film. You've got Tom Cruise doing a big dive, he's getting inside of a submarine, he's swimming and, and running around and swimming around this submarine. On screen, it takes, I would say about 20 minutes or so. How long did it actually take to film that whole sequence?
Oh, months. I mean, we've had all sorts of things, you know, weather strikes, COVID, all sorts of things have affected the making of the film and the training and then weather with the outdoor sequences that we're filming as well and those being affected. So all that working with our cinematographers and our lighting departments and our props teams and the stunts and special effects and then working out the sequence, you know, walking through the sets and can we really do that for real with real sets and real torpedoes and real metal and real this? And, you know, when we do the fake ones, it just looks fake. I mean, everything's real with Mission. That's the hardest part is it'd be very easy to, to fake it, to go into a green screen environment, even if the environment was moving. Even the environment had water, you know, and fake it, but we don't.
Everything you see is in camera. That's what makes it very challenging.
Mm hmm. So how much are you thinking about science when you're putting a stunt together?
Oh, science plays a huge factor. I mean, everything we do is, I mean, the building of these rigs, these rigs were incredible. I mean, incredible scientific and mathematical. How can we mix gases to have more time at depth and more time here? And, you know, when Tom's breathing out in this mask, he's, you know, all this dirty air, if you like, is not escaping as it should do because this is a prototype mask. So he's rebreathing and he's getting drowsy and sickness from it. Why is he so tired after so many minutes when we know he can sustain because he's so fit? You know, hours, you know, underwater normally. And then we have to work that out, the escape of the valves, because it's a prototype, is actually keeping his, you know, his dirty air, if you like, recycled air is back in. And he was getting tired from that or it starts cramping the body.
And so there's a lot of science behind everything we do. As it's all prototype stuff, if you like, and test phase stuff, we, we work it out in safe environments before we go into the dangerous environment. And then we know our limits. All right, we have two minutes in this environment. We have one minute in that environment, three minutes in that environment. And we've got stopwatches going, we've got safety divers, and this is how we have to approach it.
Do you work with scientists when you're thinking about who can answer maybe those more mathematical questions?
Uh, for sure. I mean, we bring doctors in and, and, you know, underwater specialists for that sequence and scientists if we have to, absolutely. And we ask them, what are the effects on the body? Why are we feeding this and what's going on? And we always want to know, the knowledge is power. So we always want as much knowledge as possible. So we understand rather than just keep enduring it. There's no stone left unturned. We, we want as much information as possible about everything.
What was the submarine set like? Were you actually working in water?
Oh God, yeah. Yeah, we were working in water in the submarine, said every day, you know, not only raised and lowered into water, completely submerged, deep underwater, and then could, you know, could elevate, but also could rotate three hundred and sixty degrees, could tilt. So we had roll, tilt, you know, roll and pitch, if you like.
Is this just like a giant pool in a Hollywood lot?
No, there was no pool big enough. So um we had to build the biggest underwater tank to shoot the sequence in. We had to build the two tanks, and then we had to build the sets to fit the tanks.
How big are we talking about?
Big. Very big, bigger than any tank. It was um, you know, one of the smaller tanks was, you know, forty feet deep, one hundred and fifty, one hundred and sixty foot diameter. And, you know, it was one of the small tanks. It was a hell of a feat, you know, by our production designer, by our special effects department, by, you know, Tom for designing every part of it and coming up with, you know, being there every step of the way because he knew what we wanted. Um yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a hell of a feat from, from all those involved.
Are there additional challenges to working in water as a stunt coordinator?
Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, there's a lot of safety. You know, we've got a great dive team that we use, and I've used them for years and years. And that's just on, you know, dive times, uh time at depth, um who's in the water, who's watching who, because, you know, it's such a busy set that people can disappear. And it's a big set.
Hmm.
And it's lit dimly and, you know, flashing lights and people can disappear very quickly underwater. And then we've got all the entrapment hazards as well. We've got this massive mechanical set on these gimbal, you know, that's moving and rolling and pitching and grinding all these gears and chain motors. And, you know, you get trapped or caught or pulled in by current into one of these and, you know, you're crushed. It's not going to jam up and stop. You're going to get sliced in half. So a lot of safety protocol just for entering the water or being around the water before you even go into the set. And only very few people allowed in the set. Um yeah, being in the set with Tom when he was doing the action and we had hand signals along the way that if we lost vision through bubbles and light and, you know, there was lighting signals and
hand signals. I had backups for my signals and backups for those. If I lose track of him for too long or I'm I'm unsure at any stage I stopped, you know, would stop the rig and but then still everything else is moving with the, you know, momentum and the motion. The sound of metal fatigue and crunching as things still fall into place and gravity rules. It was a very, very eerie, extremely dangerous and eerie environment, but you know, we, we planned it, we rehearsed it and we executed it.
What you do is very practical and is very practically based. I mean, is there a push and pull to how much you're able to get done practically versus how much you do have to eventually use some CGI?
And with some films, you know, obviously like the Marvel world, they, they would need CG because it's a world that doesn't exist, you know, but we shoot in worlds that exist. So we don't use CG in our mission films. I mean, we might use a bit of computer generated for coloring a sky or a tree or, you know, do something to enhance a, a picture, color correct or, or paint out a cable. That might be there for safety. You know what I mean? A, a small thing like that, but everything is in camera. Everything is real. And that's what makes it complicated is to, you know, we're not cheating the audiences. You're seeing what you're seeing and it's real and it is novel and you know, it's, it's unfortunately, I feel it's slightly dying because so much can be cheated with, you know, with computers, you know, it's very difficult. You're sitting on a set on a,
on a gimbal rig that's moving and you're shouting at the actor, all right, you know, there's, it's coming up behind you and you're right and there it is on the left and you know, feel the heat from that and you know, now you're cold and now you're hot. And yeah, there are actors, they can do it and the film will come out and it'll be content. But it won't be a film, you know, it won't be, you know, necessarily something. Unless you mix it and you have more practical with a little bit of that where you can, can't get away with it. That's fine. But when you go too far on the CG side, then I think you just lose touch and I think the audiences disconnect.
Do you find it takes a special type of person to do stunts or requires certain traits that you see across these films that you've done?
Yeah, for sure. I think stunt performers around the world are a unique breed of character and the ones that are at the top of their game, they all have the same sort of level of commitment. They can't sit still. They're always training, always trying to learn new skills. They're always trying to create something. They, you know, all over the place with their energy. We're always pushing the envelope of our bodies as well. Like what can our body endure? Like how much, how long can we hold our breath? Well, how long can we do this or that? And I think that's what makes, um, makes a stunt performer, you know, slightly, slightly unique.
Is the adrenaline rush part of your enjoyment?
I think for sure. Like, I think anyone that does extreme sports or, you know, like in my personal life, I'm, you know, I do a lot of extreme sports and I'm doing them every day pretty much if I can. And if I can't do them because the weather's bad or something, I'm pretty grumpy to be around sometimes because I'm not getting my adrenaline fulfillment. We just require that. We need that, thrive on that.
Wade Eastwood, Second Unit Director and Stunt Coordinator for Mission Impossible: The Final Reckoning. Thanks so much for joining us.
My pleasure. Thank you.
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After the break, what makes some people thrill seekers? We'll talk to a scientist who studies people who love to live on the edge.
So when they're in these highly chaotic experiences, they feel lots of pleasure, but not much stress.
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Up next, from stunt technology to stunt psychology. What is actually happening in Tom Cruise's brain when he rolls around in a spinning submarine? What makes some people better suited to this kind of work? And what can they teach us about thrill-seeking behavior? Here to answer those questions and more is psychologist Dr. Kenneth Carter from Oxford College at Emory University and author of Buzz: Inside the Minds of Thrill Seekers, Daredevils, and Adrenaline Junkies. Ken, welcome to Science Friday.
Glad to be here.
Okay, Ken, you research, I think, people like Wade, our stunt coordinator. What makes them special? Do you see differences in their brain or their hormone levels? Like, is there a physiological or anatomical difference to them?
Yeah, there is. When most people, when all of us are around something that's really chaotic or frightening, we set off something called cortisol, a sort of a stress hormone that organizes our body systems for that fight, flee, or freeze response. And so these high sensation seekers actually don't actually give out a lot of cortisol, less cortisol than you'd expect from an average or low sensation-seeking person. On the other hand, they tend to exhibit a lot of a neurotransmitter called dopamine, which is associated with pleasure. So when they're in these highly chaotic experiences, they feel lots of pleasure, but not much stress. So it's a really, really neat combination if that's coming from their brain.
That sounds like a dream come true to me.
It would be if you are a high sensation seeker. If you're a low sensation seeker, it's the opposite, where you're really, really stressed out and you're actually not feeling that much pleasure.
Where do you fall on the thrill-seeking scale?
I'm pretty low. So out of a scale of about 40 points, I score about an eight out of 40. A lot of the high sensation seekers I've interviewed are 38s or 39s. I've even interviewed some people who are 40 out of 40.
Okay, you can take this questionnaire, listeners, on our website at sciencefriday.com/stunts and find out where you fall on the scale. Ken, I took it and I was a 31.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah, oh, gosh, I was like in the very high range.
So I can guess that if you're going on vacation, you're not going to love those hop-on, hop-off buses. You're going to want to get in the fray, eat unusual things, go on roller coasters. I can, I'm just guessing.
Oh, my gosh, you know me. I feel so seen, I would never go on a hop-on, hop-off bus.
Is adrenaline, I mean, you say in the subtitle of your book, you write about adrenaline junkies. Is adrenaline something you get addicted to?
Well, you know, a lot of the high sensation seekers I've talked to actually tell me that adrenaline gets in the way of what they want to do. Will Gadd, who's an ice climber, first person to climb up Niagara Falls when it was frozen, said if he just wanted adrenaline, he'd just run back and forth on the highway. What he's looking for is something that really kind of unique and cool to do and to be able to contain that adrenaline so that he can focus really well.
I want to go back to something that Wade told us in the last interview. He was like, if the weather's bad, if I can't do my extreme sports, I get grumpy. How does that square with what you know about thrill seekers?
It's something I've heard a lot. You know, I think a lot of times we think about thrill seeking as something a person does, but it's really who they are. You know, they're really locking into that thing that brings them that sense of awe, that really wonderful combination of the dopamine and the low cortisol. And so a lot of high sensation seekers had trouble during COVID lockdowns where they couldn't do those kinds of things. What I suggest for those people is to look for other activities that they might be able to do, whether it's eating something adventurous or adventure travel. It also explains why a lot of high sensation people focus on jobs and careers that sort of help them with that. I interviewed an emergency room physician who had a new job
as a primary care physician and didn't really like it very much because he wasn't exposed to that chaotic environment that his brain really likes. So he started doing CrossFit and other adventure sports to make up for it.
So what about for low sensation seekers? If they, if you go to a movie and see Tom Cruise bouncing around in a submarine, you know, where his life is on the line. How do you feel about that? Is that a way for you to get some of that awe without the stress of doing it yourself?
Yeah, it is. That vicarious sensation seeking from a really safe perspective is a great way to tap into that. You know, people say never, say never, but I have a whole list of things I'll probably never do. And so being able to experience it through virtual reality or movies is the perfect way to tap in and get a peek into that awe.
Thanks for talking today, Ken.
Thanks so much.
Dr. Kenneth Carter, professor of psychology at Oxford College at Emory University, based in Atlanta, Georgia. If you want to take that questionnaire and see how much of a thrill seeker you are, we have you covered. Head to our website, sciencefriday.com/stunts, and you can take it. Have a great three-day weekend. Monday, we're off. And coming Tuesday is the next episode in The Leap, a series I made with the Hypothesis Fund about scientists taking a risk to uncover something new.
The more pushback I received, the more I knew I need to do it, like this is worth doing. Because this is how humans are, right? Like, if something is interesting, we don't welcome it. We don't, we want to believe that. We want to believe that you show someone or so, show the field, to show the world some amazing data, and everyone gets behind the work that you do. That's not how it works.
That's on Tuesday.
And that is about all we have time for. Lots of folks helped make this show happen, including...
Sandy Roberts.
Jordan Smudjic. Emma Gomez.
Melissa Mears. I'm Flora Lichtman. Thanks for listening.
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