Your Life Is A Story: Why You Should Write Your Own Eulogy TODAY w/Donald Miller EP 1215

Today’s guest is Donald Miller. He’s the CEO of Business Made Simple, his company that focuses on taking the mystery out of growing a business. He is the host of the Business Made Simple podcast and is the author of several books including the bestsellers Blue Like Jazz, A Million Miles in a Thousand Years, and Building a StoryBrand. He’s written a new book called Hero on a Mission: A Path to a Meaningful Life. This episode was incredibly moving and powerful and I know you’re going to get a lot of value from it! In this episode we discuss why it’s important to constantly think about your life as a story, the key elements to your story and living a meaningful life, why Donald believes everyone should write their own eulogy, and so much more! For more go to: www.lewishowes.com/1215Read Donald's new book: Hero on a Mission: A Path to a Meaningful LifeListen to his podcast: Business Made SimpleCheck out his website: www.businessmadesimple.comDaymond John on How to Close any Deal and Achieve Any Outcome: https://link.chtbl.com/928-podSara Blakely on Writing Your Billion Dollar Story: https://link.chtbl.com/893-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 1,215 with New York Times bestselling author Donald Miller. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:31Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back, my friend. Today's guest is the inspiring Donald Miller. He is the host of the Business Made Simple podcast and is the author of multiple books, including the bestsellers, Blue Light Jazz, A Million Miles in a Thousand Years, and Building a Story Brand. And he has written a new book called Hero on a Mission: A Path to a Meaningful Life. I loved diving into this book. I loved this interview so much. It was incredibly inspiring and moving and powerful, and I know you're going to get a ton of value from this as well. Because there are four main characters in each one of our lives. And the quality of our life will really be determined based on which character we move into on each season of our life.

• 1:12Lewis Howes?

  So in this episode, we discuss how there are these four characters in our lives and how you can manage and move through them to get to the best one for you, why it's important to constantly think about your life as a story. Donald dives into the importance of story as your life, the key elements to your story and living a meaningful life, why Donald believes everyone should write their own eulogy, and so much more. This was packed with a lot of great wisdom. We covered a lot of different topics as well, and I think you're going to love this one. If you're enjoying it at any moment, make sure to share this with a friend that you think would be inspired by this message and interview as well. You can copy and paste the link lewishouse.com/1215, or just wherever you're listening to this podcast, share the link out over on social media or text a few friends as well.

• 1:57Lewis Howes?

  And I want to give a big shout out to the fan of the week. We've got Millions of listeners every week. I think we're over 17 million listeners and viewers from around the world every month now, which is inspiring to see how big this show is actually getting from YouTube to audio and everywhere in between. And I want to give a shout out to the fans, people that are engaging and really connecting and leaving comments and reviews. And so this is from Stevie and Jess, who left reviews over on Apple Podcasts and they said, Louis, you are my latest habit and I have stacked listening to your podcast with my daily walk and can be seen on the sidewalk, nodding, smiling, laughing, and thinking deeply about so many messages you and your guests provide. Even at 49 years old, I feel growth and development

• 2:40Lewis Howes?

  of my own mindset, life stance, and daily actions is so critical. I'm grateful to you and your team, sir. So Stevie and Jess, we appreciate you. Thank you for listening, for constantly improving. I'm a big believer that we should have a beginner's mind at every stage of life. I'm always enjoying learning, developing myself, you know, learning from my mistakes. And I'm glad that this show and all the guests we have on inspire you as well at this stage of your life. And if you guys want a chance to be shouted out on the podcast, you can leave a review over on Apple Podcasts right now. Make sure you're subscribed. And again, big thank you to all your support by listening to this show. Okay, in just a moment, the one and only Donald Miller.

• 3:25Lewis Howes?

  What would you say are the three things that you were able to heal within the last, I guess, eight years of being together and knowing each other?

• 3:33Donald Miller?

  It's all still happening. The trust thing, knowing that she's not gonna, you know, fool around or flirt with somebody else. And some relationships are like that, but, but I'm not comfortable in that. I just completely now have somebody who

• 3:54Donald Miller?

  I just feel like I don't have to give a second thought to. You know, and even and she and she has flirted with other people and I just kind of go, I'll bet you that was fun. She's like, oh, he's cute. And I'm like, yeah, there you go. That's a level of trust that's a whole other level.

• 4:09Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 4:10Donald Miller?

  You know, and um, and so it's just, it's just fun. I mean, Lewis, it's just fun. And then the healing that has happened to me in terms of just calming down. When you have to be somewhere because somebody's expecting you, you know, those sorts of things, you just grow up real fast.

• 4:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:29Donald Miller?

  You know, really, really fast.

• 4:31Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 4:31Donald Miller?

  And then, um, you know, so that's a big part. And then the other part was, it probably took me two or three years to realize, oh, wait a second, this isn't just her healing me. I'm actually gonna heal her in some ways. And I'm gonna be a really trustworthy guy who said, who just constantly says encouraging things and, you know, tries not to ever say anything demeaning or negative. No, that's not true because I have. But if you're in a relationship with somebody who doesn't believe that they have the power to give anything to you, it's not gonna work.

• 5:01Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. If they don't believe.

• 5:03Donald Miller?

  They have the power to actually, that their love for you actually means something.

• 5:08Lewis Howes?

  It won't work.

• 5:09Donald Miller?

  The relationship won't work.

• 5:09Lewis Howes?

  Why won't it work?

• 5:10Donald Miller?

  Because you're gonna be giving everything to them and they're never gonna be giving back because they don't believe they have anything to get.

• 5:14Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 5:15Donald Miller?

  You know, so it's, I think it's really important that we have very high self-esteem in our relationships, that we believe. No, my words actually have the power to heal this person.

• 5:23Lewis Howes?

  How do you think we build self-esteem if we don't have much of it?

• 5:27Donald Miller?

  Okay, this is gonna be controversial. I don't believe that you can look in the mirror and say that you're awesome and build self-esteem. I actually think you have to chalk up some wins.

• 5:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, there's gotta be some results in your life.

• 5:40Donald Miller?

  Exactly. You gotta go finish a marathon. That'll do it. Like, get a good haircut, buy some new clothes. Yeah, all that superficial stuff actually means something. And, you know, writing a book like you did and finishing it, you know, if you start chalking up wins, your identity begins to change. The role you play in the story of your life will determine your character.

• 6:02Lewis Howes?

  How important is identity for ourselves?

• 6:04Donald Miller?

  It's everything. Why? Because you will operate out of your identity. In stories, there are four characters, four major characters. The victim, the villain, the hero, and the guide. So let me describe them. The victim is the one who believes they are doomed and they have no way out and they are looking for a rescuer. Mm-hmm. Uh, the villain is the one who makes others small. They demean others in order to feel powerful, sometimes physically. Uh, the hero is the one who really doesn't have what it takes, but accepts the challenge and transforms until they can get the job done. And then the guide is the one who has played the hero for so long, they have the expertise to turn around and help somebody else.

• 6:49Donald Miller?

  You will see those four characters in every story. And here's why those four characters exist in every story. They exist in every story because they exist in you. You are not one of them, you are all four. And I am all four. And really, if you look at your day, you'll play all four characters in one day. If you're jumping on a plane and this lady, yeah, yeah. Yeah, if you walk out and your car's been stolen, you're gonna feel sorry for yourself, maybe I'm doomed and why does this happen to me? And yeah, that's the victim. If, uh, somebody calls and says, and cancels an interview, uh, you're gonna feel disrespected and you're gonna say that little, you know what, that's the villain. The hero is the one who says, "I'm not gonna stop. I'm gonna make sure this happens until I bench 300 pounds. And I'm gonna show up every day and I'm gonna transform until I can be the guy who does it."

• 7:32Donald Miller?

  And then the guide is the one who says, "This guy's about to step on a landmine, I think I need to go talk to him." And so we play those four characters every day, but here's the, here's the truth. The more you identify as the victim, the worse your story will go. Victims in stories do not transform. Uh, they're bit parts that make the hero look good and the villain look bad. It's a bit part. And at the end of the story, you'll notice the victim sits on the bumper of the ambulance. They put a blanket around them and they, the camera shows them for a second, then it goes over and shows the hero getting their reward. The story's about the hero. Yeah, who saved or guided the, yeah. That's right. So when we play the victims, our stories go nowhere. We don't transform, we never get what we want. We don't build a legacy, we're not remembered. And we suck all the energy into ourselves. Interesting.

• 8:16Donald Miller?

  And people need to get away from us. Right. And so if you play the victim, your story will go like a victim in a movie. If you play the villain... Where you're, you know, you're nice to people when the camera's on, but you're cussing them out. When they, when, you know, behind the scenes, or you're, you know, I have so many friends who threaten to sue all the time. I'm like, do you realize how? Yourself or other people? Yeah, yeah, other people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how they operate. And I'm like, do you realize that as soon as you send that email, they get on the phone and call 20 people? And you're burning bridges left and right? Yeah. You're, you're being a villain. This is what the villain would do in a movie. Don't do it, because here's what happens to villain in a movie. They're shot. Right, they die. They die. They go to jail.

• 8:57Donald Miller?

  They die or they go to jail. Yeah, that's, and so the same thing's gonna happen to you. You may not go to jail, but you're gonna be in a social prison. Mm-hmm. Where people are gonna, you know, and then you gotta cycle through friends because you've burned them all out. The hero, what happens to the hero is they, they experience a reward because they accomplish something great. But the bigger thing is they transform. So at the beginning of the movie, they're ill-equipped, they are afraid, they don't know what to do. Um, they need help, and at the end of the movie, they're strong. And if we want to become our, a better version of ourselves, we have to do what heroes do. And what heroes do is they see something that they can't do.

• 9:36Donald Miller?

  They accept that they can't do it, and they become the person who can do it by continuing to hit their head against the wall. That's what they do. And then what we find out is if we do that 10 or 12 times and we become the great awesome man, which tends to happen to us in our late twenties. Think we're invincible, don't you? We start figuring out it's actually a pretty empty life. And we turn around and we help somebody else and we go, wait a second. That felt really meaningful. And, you know, you, you start playing the guide more and more. And so the, the real beautiful journey of life is you have this opportunity to play the hero and you slowly transform into the guy. I did a, um, if you ever get a chance to interview Pete Carroll with the Seahawks.

• 10:17Donald Miller?

  I went up and, and he gave me 15 minutes in his office and we spent two hours together. Hmm. And one of the things that I asked him, because in these interviews, sometimes I'll ask, I'll say, hey, when did you realize that you were special? Now, almost everybody I've ever asked that to played the humble card and said, oh, there's nothing. He didn't. And I really liked it. He said I was in high school. Wow. He said, um, my doctor wouldn't let me play football because I was too small, but I knew that I was bigger than my body. I knew it. I knew I was special. That's cool. It was very cool. And I was so glad he was honest. And then I said, um, I said, but did that bring you meaning by accomplishing so much? And he said, no. He said, one of the best things that ever happened to me is I chalked up a lot of wins when I was young.

• 11:02Donald Miller?

  Because I realized they were empty. And it wasn't until I started coaching and helping other people, other heroes win, that I found meaning.

• 11:09Lewis Howes?

  That's kind of how I felt.

• 11:10Donald Miller?

  Well, that's what you do. If you think about it, you play the guy.

• 11:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 11:13Donald Miller?

  Right? You sit there, you metabolize content quickly and turn around and somebody else can use it.

• 11:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. There was something always missing inside.

• 11:21Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 11:21Lewis Howes?

  Like I would go and spend years, sometimes decades, pursuing a goal and then I would accomplish it. And then I'd be like, well, now what? And I didn't have, there was a, there was like a feeling of like, yes, I can do what I set out to do, but it wasn't a deeper fulfillment. And I think, I don't know if it was because for most of my life, I was doing, I was accomplishing things to prove people wrong. And so the energy and the effort behind trying to, you know, prove the three bullies wrong, or these people who said no to me wrong, or who picked me last. And like having that fuel left me feeling like, uh, it wasn't any meaningful fuel.

• 12:01Lewis Howes?

  The pursuit and the goal was significant for me, but the energy behind it wasn't out of pure love. And I think if it was out of like, I'm doing this because I love it, because I want to inspire people. As opposed to, I want to prove the like, I don't know, all these people wrong, I might've had more fulfillment. But when I transitioned into, well, how can I just serve? And through the school of greatness and how can I,

• 12:26Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 12:26Lewis Howes?

  collect information from wise people like yourself and then facilitate and share this with others and help them improve? That's when it became another level of fulfillment.

• 12:34Donald Miller?

  Viktor Frankl would say that in order to be meaningful, an objective needs to be mutually beneficial. It needs to benefit you and it needs to benefit others. If it only benefits you, it won't work.

• 12:44Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 12:46Donald Miller?

  You know, it needs to be a team or a, you know, you can't do it alone. One of the three things that Viktor Frankl said you need to put into your life in order to experience a deep sense of meaning is community. And he also included art and nature into that. Because basically he was saying, you gotta stop staring at your belly button, pulling the lint out and holding it up to the light. You're gonna drive yourself nuts.

• 13:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:08Donald Miller?

  Get into a community and share an objective with a group of people and try to accomplish it.

• 13:14Lewis Howes?

  What happens if we just do it, something for ourselves only?

• 13:17Donald Miller?

  It'll be empty. You know, when you, when you watch a story, um, you know, there, there's been like thirty seven Rocky movies, right? But I can't remember which one I watched that, you know, Rocky wanted to win the heavyweight. Bow, that's always the story. And, but if you think about it, wanting to win the heavyweight championship, um, is a very selfish endeavor. And so if you play that movie out and he wins it, the audience will not like him. In fact, they'll, they'll turn on him. So what they had, what the screenwriters had to do to make the story work is they had Rocky start mentoring a fatherless kid, take care of a single mom, buy an old homeless man dinner. I'm not kidding. He goes to a dog pound and rescues a dog and adopts the dog.

• 14:00Donald Miller?

  That way, the audience will cheer for him when he wins the heavyweight fight.

• 14:04Lewis Howes?

  Cause he's doing it for more people than himself.

• 14:06Donald Miller?

  Because he's, it's a good person winning the championship rather than just a person who's driven only for themselves. Now, what's fascinating about that is the screenwriters had to put all of that in there in order to make the movie work. So what does that tell us about life?

• 14:20Lewis Howes?

  We've got to put all that in there to make it work.

• 14:22Donald Miller?

  If you want to experience, you know, your life is a story. It, it is. Your life is a story. And when people say I'm restless or I'm bored, I had a great, um, coffee with a, an acquaintance in Portland. Friend of mine said, will you get together, my friend, you wrote a book about traveling around America. Um, he's wants to write a book about traveling around America. He just finished. Will you get together? I did. The kid's ten years younger than me, just starting out and writing. And I realized pretty quickly, this kid is a nihilist. This kid believes that life is futile and there's no meaning to any of it, which in Portland is like, right? I mean, on the state flag, you could just have life is meaningless, but marijuana leave. But, yeah, I said something to him that, um, was offensive.

• 15:02Lewis Howes?

  What'd you say?

• 15:03Donald Miller?

  I said, what if life is not meaningless? What if just your life is meaningless?

• 15:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh dang.

• 15:08Donald Miller?

  And here's what I meant by that. What if life hands you the opportunity to live a story? And the story that you are writing with your life is not pleasing or satisfying? It's boring. It's the equivalent of sitting in a theater and watching a blank screen. I said, life is not meaningless. Life is just stuff that you can put together and make what you want with it. What you have made is meaningless and it's giving you the experience of meaningless, but don't project your meaninglessness on me.

• 15:34Lewis Howes?

  Don't say the world is meaningless. What's the point of being here just because you haven't created something meaningful?

• 15:40Donald Miller?

  That's exactly, yeah, or even meaningful for yourself, right? Life hands us these cultural scripts, right? When we're born, we're born into a family. You know, we're the son or we're the daughter. And our parents give us a script and we play out that story. Then we get into school and it's usually an education script. Then you get into university and there are two scripts happening in university. One is a career script and the other is find a mate. Or whatever, you know, those are the scripts. Then you get married and you have kids and there's a family script. And you know what happens after that? There are no more cultural scripts. Nobody gives you a script. And so what is midlife crisis? It's literally you've played out the story that culture gave you

• 16:25Donald Miller?

  and you did not create a new one for yourself. And so now you're sitting in the theater of your own mind. You're watching a blank screen and it's driving you crazy. That, my friend, is your fault.

• 16:35Lewis Howes?

  So what, if someone's in their early twenties, what should they be reconsidering about their story?

• 16:40Donald Miller?

  They should look at their life like a story. They should say, look, if I were a hero in a story, what would I do differently? I've heard Joe Rogan say this, I've heard a number of people say it. But if I were a hero in a story and I were talking to my girlfriend this way, what does that do to the story? Does the audience root for this character or do they not like this character? I mean, so the biggest regrets of my life are things that I've said to people that if you showed that with, out of context, if you just showed that, everybody would go, oh, it's the villain. You know, and that stuff is in my story. So then you ask yourself, okay, if I've screwed up, how do you fix it? Well, how would a hero fix it? You apologize, you make it right. You don't do that again.

• 17:25Donald Miller?

  You know, and now everybody's going, oh, we like this guy.

• 17:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:28Donald Miller?

  And so it's pretty easy.

• 17:31Lewis Howes?

  Now, how does a villain change their identity into a hero?

• 17:35Donald Miller?

  I have a cynical view of villains. I think it's, I think it's very, very... Difficult for a narcissistic control freak to actually change. Um, but how do you do it?

• 17:46Lewis Howes?

  We just had a therapist who's the expert on narcissism. Uh, on and it's been going viral and she was like, you can't change a narcissist.

• 17:54Donald Miller?

  I kind of agree with that.

• 17:55Lewis Howes?

  It's like unless they're willing to look within, which

• 17:58Donald Miller?

  That's right.

• 17:58Lewis Howes?

  And take accountability, which is almost impossible. And say, I want to go to therapy. Couple of days a week and do this for years. To be willing to really start to break these patterns. I don't know if it's that extreme, but this is what she said, based on her experience of decades of working with narcissists. So you're saying villains are hard to change?

• 18:18Donald Miller?

  Well, not all villains. I have a friend who, uh, occasionally had the honor of visiting, his name is Terry. And Terry is on death row in Tennessee. Terry killed a young woman when he was about 18 years old. Raped her and killed her.

• 18:32Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:32Donald Miller?

  And, um, Terry's probably 55 now. And he's consistently scheduled to be executed. And, you know, lives, you know, but when you sit and talk to Terry. He has wholeheartedly processed. What he did. Wholeheartedly.

• 18:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:51Donald Miller?

  So much so that he's actually written back and forth with family members of the young woman.

• 18:56Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:57Donald Miller?

  And they've written to him. And I think the, the path to going from villain to hero. Is when the villain stops and says, I was wrong. And I have to make amends for what I did.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 19:11Donald Miller?

  And then that character for watching a movie is now transformed into a hero and can move on. And they can start to see themselves as a hero. But that's really hard for somebody to do when they believe that. If they admit that they're wrong, it puts me in a weak position and I'm vulnerable and now I'm exposed to an outside threat. They think I'll never, I'll never ever admit that I'm wrong because. That's a weakness and, and the one rule of being a villain is never ever show that you're weak.

• 19:39Lewis Howes?

  Why is vulnerability such a key? Factor in life?

• 19:43Donald Miller?

  Cause it's truth?

• 19:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Why is it so hard for so many people?

• 19:47Donald Miller?

  That's hard for me.

• 19:48Lewis Howes?

  Like, like your, like your mom, you said she wasn't vulnerable for many years. I don't know. If that ever changed.

• 19:53Donald Miller?

  She was so vulnerable, you know, in the last 15 years of her life. She was incredibly vulnerable.

• 19:58Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 19:58Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 19:58Lewis Howes?

  Why did that shift?

• 19:59Donald Miller?

  She realized and her children did such a good job loving her. Again, I hate to take, for my sister and I, take some credit for that. But I think that was a big, a big, big part of it. And then I just think, you know, she became a grandma. I'm like, because of my sister, she didn't, she never got to meet my baby. But I think that, that was part of it too. Who knows? I, I think villain, villainy and pride go hand in hand. And, you know, my mom, she divorced my dad, or my dad left when I was two years old. And my mom made a decision, we never talked about it, but I know from the way she lived her life,

• 20:42Donald Miller?

  she made a decision, she would never, ever, ever get her heart broken again. So for the last forty years of her life, she never dated.

• 20:51Lewis Howes?

  She had no love.

• 20:51Donald Miller?

  She had no love.

• 20:52Lewis Howes?

  Man, that's tough.

• 20:53Donald Miller?

  Because she was not gonna get hurt. She was not gonna take that risk.

• 20:56Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that crazy? The fear of pain, or feeling that pain once can help, have us hold on to it for so long.

• 21:03Donald Miller?

  Yep.

• 21:03Lewis Howes?

  To not wanna put ourselves out there to experience love again.

• 21:06Donald Miller?

  Yep. Yeah, or to become cynical about the nature of love itself. Or to not realize that the person that you love is actually going to hurt you. They're just gonna do it.

• 21:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Donald Miller?

  They're gonna hurt you and you, and you're gonna hurt them. But what is love if it's this conditional thing of like, well, it's over if you hurt me?

• 21:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:24Donald Miller?

  That's not love. Right? You know, I don't think we can expect to always be respected or cared about by the person that we're with. And so our ability to be forgiving creates an even greater bond. And our willingness to say, no, I'm going down with this ship. If you hurt me, it's gonna, it's gonna be worse than death. But I am here.

• 21:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:47Donald Miller?

  You know, and not try to, that was the other thing that I realized in so many relationships early on, that you can't control somebody and love them at the same time. It doesn't work.

• 21:56Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, why not?

• 21:58Donald Miller?

  Because if you're controlling them, it's not a genuine relationship.

• 22:01Lewis Howes?

  What is it?

• 22:02Donald Miller?

  Uh, it's you interacting with a puppet.

• 22:05Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 22:07Donald Miller?

  Or and if the puppet, by the way, is pure fantasy on your part because they're actually not a puppet. Uh, they're complying.

• 22:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:13Donald Miller?

  But compliance isn't genuine. You just can't, you just can't control somebody and love them at the same time. You can't control somebody and be in a loving relationship. It doesn't work.

• 22:21Lewis Howes?

  What's the alternative?

• 22:23Donald Miller?

  Set them free. I mean, think, you know, let's go back to Sting. If you love somebody, set them free. Yeah, I think that's, that's the alternative.

• 22:31Lewis Howes?

  Is that set them free by not being with them or set them free in the relationship?

• 22:34Donald Miller?

  Uh, you set them free in the relationship. So what I learned was that you stop in, in my relationship with Betsy, hopefully, if I'm doing it right. I'm never wanting Betsy to be different or I'm wanting Betsy to change. What I'm wanting is what I have boundaries on is the relationship that we are in. So in a dating relationship, you would never say, I can't be with somebody who does this. What you would say is, I don't want to be in a relationship that feels this way.

• 23:03Donald Miller?

  Are you, do you want to change so that we can be in this or, or not?

• 23:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:08Donald Miller?

  You know, my, my friend Henry Cloud is here in town says, you gotta view some relationships like a Coke machine. If you put a dollar twenty-five in a Coke machine and it doesn't give you a Coke machine, you go to a different machine. You don't keep putting money in, press other buttons, try to get, it doesn't, this doesn't work. And so when you're in a relationship, you go, actually, I'm looking for commitment and affection and you're just looking to get laid or whatever, you know, then, uh.

• 23:32Lewis Howes?

  It won't work.

• 23:32Donald Miller?

  It won't work. Stop putting money into it. Yeah, go to a different one.

• 23:36Lewis Howes?

  And it's, it takes responsibility from both parties to recognize and see that.

• 23:39Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 23:40Lewis Howes?

  And then I expect something from the person who's just wanting to get laid and expect something different. And then not expect you to be different as well. It's like.

• 23:47Donald Miller?

  It's never gonna work.

• 23:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:49Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 23:49Lewis Howes?

  It took me a long time to have awareness.

• 23:51Donald Miller?

  But don't you think love and fear go hand in hand?

• 23:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, because I'm having conversations with my girlfriend in the last few weeks that I had some like. I had to step into courage, like let go of past fears and step into courageous thought, action, words that felt a little like, not fearful, but just like, man, I wanted to work out. You know, you wanted to be well.

• 24:16Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Lewis Howes?

  Want it to be healthy, want it to be strong. And so it takes courage, I think, to fully love and not go through pain again.

• 24:23Donald Miller?

  It does. You know, I, um, I found my dad.

• 24:28Lewis Howes?

  Cause he left when you were two.

• 24:29Donald Miller?

  He was left when I was two and I found him when I was in my mid thirties.

• 24:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 24:32Donald Miller?

  I had just released a book about growing up without a father.

• 24:35Lewis Howes?

  What was that like?

• 24:36Donald Miller?

  It was terrifying. He lived in Indiana and, um, I called him and said, my name is Donald Miller. I'm your son and I'm on my way to your house.

• 24:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:49Donald Miller?

  Left a voicemail. He called me back, so I know he got the call, but I was too scared to answer. I'm driving to his house and I'm in Chicago, I'm six hours away.

• 24:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:58Donald Miller?

  And I'm too scared to answer. I don't want to have, I don't know what to do. And knocked on his door, went in and he's watching Fox News, he's drinking a beer. And I was very happy about two things. He had his hair and he was in good health.

• 25:13Lewis Howes?

  You're like, good, okay, yeah.

• 25:14Donald Miller?

  And we just had this conversation and he explained what happened. You know, mom, who I love, you know, who passed away, who became this amazing woman, emasculated him.

• 25:24Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 25:25Donald Miller?

  And he felt the need to leave. And, um, I didn't, I didn't understand, how could you, there's something biochemical that happens when you have a kid. How, how can you, how can anything pull you away from that? It just made no sense to me.

• 25:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:42Donald Miller?

  And Louis, we had a baby six months ago. And one of the things that I thought was so amazing, I still felt like, how could anything pull you away from this? But what I didn't realize, what I never saw coming was, My entire happiness, well-being, view of whether or not life is good or bad, now depends on the well-being of this child.

• 26:05Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 26:06Donald Miller?

  In other words, if anything happens to this kid, my life is over.

• 26:11Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 26:11Donald Miller?

  My marriage is over. My understanding and view of whether or not God is good is over.

• 26:17Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 26:18Donald Miller?

  Everything.

• 26:19Lewis Howes?

  Is that what you're telling yourself right now?

• 26:20Donald Miller?

  It's what's true.

• 26:22Lewis Howes?

  Is it the truth or is it?

• 26:23Donald Miller?

  I think if anything happened to Emmeline, I don't know that I could survive.

• 26:27Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 26:27Donald Miller?

  I don't know.

• 26:28Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 26:29Donald Miller?

  I'm telling, the parents are watching this going, oh, Louis is gonna find out.

• 26:33Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:34Donald Miller?

  Yeah. I mean, I think it was Madeleine L'Engle who said, having a child is like having your heart walk around the room.

• 26:39Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 26:40Donald Miller?

  Outside your body.

• 26:41Lewis Howes?

  That's tough, yeah.

• 26:42Donald Miller?

  And, uh.

• 26:42Lewis Howes?

  Why wouldn't the marriage work if something happened?

• 26:45Donald Miller?

  I think, um, so much of, of what became the, the purpose of our lives was to give ourselves sacrificially to the, to the well-being of this child. Not all of it. And we still give to each other and we still have our identities. But, um, you know, to lose something that you love that much is, you know, I, I just don't know that I, parents do it and parents survive.

• 27:15Lewis Howes?

  There's always something kind of missing and, yeah.

• 27:17Donald Miller?

  Well, but I, I just don't know how they do it.

• 27:21Donald Miller?

  You know?

• 27:21Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 27:21Donald Miller?

  And thank God and pray that that never, you never have to answer that question. But I only say all that to say, love demands courage. So why did my father leave? I think one of the reasons is this is freaking scary.

• 27:33Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:34Donald Miller?

  This is terrifying.

• 27:35Lewis Howes?

  Scary.

• 27:35Donald Miller?

  Yeah, this is terrifying.

• 27:36Lewis Howes?

  What was the biggest lesson you learned growing up without a father?

• 27:40Donald Miller?

  I learned that when you, when you grow up with deficiencies, other monetary deficiencies or relational deficiencies or even physical handicaps.

• 27:51Donald Miller?

  And I don't want to offend anybody. You're actually at an advantage if you can metabolize that and turn it into strength.

• 27:57Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 27:59Donald Miller?

  Because when you work out, you go tear up your body.

• 28:02Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:02Donald Miller?

  And it turns into muscle.

• 28:04Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:04Donald Miller?

  The problem is, a lot of people with monetary deficiencies or handicaps, whatever, they'll go into victim mindset and so the muscle will never come. But if we can actually turn around and say, no, I'm going to see this as a hero and a story. Turn on your favorite movie. Here's how it starts. The hero is some sort of orphan.

• 28:25Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:25Donald Miller?

  Their parents have left, somebody has abandoned them and they feel alone. It's formulaic, right? Because it makes the story better.

• 28:33Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:34Donald Miller?

  Because we get to see them reconcile with whoever or get what they want or become a whole. And, you know, every parent screws up their kid. It is, it's amazing to me, my mom never made more than $20,000 a year. We've stood in line for government cheese. You know, in line is being raised in 15 posh acres in the nicest neighborhood in Tennessee.

• 28:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 28:56Donald Miller?

  She's getting a completely different life.

• 28:58Lewis Howes?

  So does she have a disadvantage?

• 29:00Donald Miller?

  I want, I've asked myself that question. Right? I've asked myself that question.

• 29:04Lewis Howes?

  Is there any kid that grows up in a healthy parent relationship, lovefully?

• 29:10Donald Miller?

  They have a much better chance of being happy.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 29:12Donald Miller?

  Than not, but they have a lesser chance of actually seeing a massive success or accomplishment in their life.

• 29:22Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 29:22Donald Miller?

  Mm hmm.

• 29:23Lewis Howes?

  Why is that? Is there's no drive?

• 29:24Donald Miller?

  There was a study done amongst CEOs and really, really successful CEOs. And they said, okay, what's the common denominator between the ones who are clearly a cut above? And they found the common denominator is that they grew up poor.

• 29:42Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that crazy? A lot of, a lot of these, I heard a story that something like 20 or 30%, I'm messing it up, but a big percentage of presidents like grew up without parents, like dads. I think it was like their dads died early or...

• 29:56Donald Miller?

  Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, George W. Bush obviously had a great father.

• 30:03Donald Miller?

  I don't know Jimmy Carter's history. Nixon.

• 30:06Lewis Howes?

  They didn't have followers.

• 30:07Donald Miller?

  Terrible, terrible home relationship.

• 30:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Donald Miller?

  You know, abusive. Uh, yeah, I mean, you just take it all back. I don't know Joe Biden's story. I'm not sure. But yeah, a lot of them. It's that orphan heart that drives you.

• 30:17Lewis Howes?

  What is that? What is the orphan heart?

• 30:18Donald Miller?

  The orphan heart is I want to prove that I belong in this world, that I matter.

• 30:21Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 30:21Donald Miller?

  Because nobody ever told it to me.

• 30:23Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 30:24Donald Miller?

  Now, hopefully that gets healed. I feel like in Barack Obama's life, that got healed. I think in Bill Clinton's life, I think that got healed.

• 30:31Donald Miller?

  But hopefully you find healing, but it can be jet fuel. You know, it can also destroy you.

• 30:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 30:37Donald Miller?

  You know, and it's much more likely to destroy you, I think, than to be jet fuel.

• 30:39Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 30:40Donald Miller?

  Yeah. So we don't want to do that to our kids.

• 30:42Lewis Howes?

  Sure. But you think a child growing up with financial abundance, let's say, safety, peace, healthy, loving relationship, has a far harder chance to do something much more significant? Or what is the challenge they face?

• 30:58Donald Miller?

  Those kids tend to do very, very well. They tend to not be, let's be clear about what I'm saying here.

• 31:04Lewis Howes?

  They don't take big risks.

• 31:05Donald Miller?

  They're not driven by wounds.

• 31:07Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:08Donald Miller?

  Right? I mean, if you got a cattle prod poking you in the butt every five minutes, you're gonna move.

• 31:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:13Donald Miller?

  Right? And so it's not, it's not, it's not a bad thing. I mean, I don't want a cattle, I don't want Emmeline to grow up with the sense of inadequacy that I had. And that drive to be important because I'm trying to prove that I'm not the kid from the wrong side of the tracks. You know, if you look at my financial success, I guarantee you, Louis, 90% of it is I'm trying to prove to myself that I'm not white trash.

• 31:36Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 31:36Donald Miller?

  Guaranteed. Absolutely.

• 31:38Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Still?

• 31:40Donald Miller?

  Not as much anymore.

• 31:41Lewis Howes?

  If you had them worn out.

• 31:42Donald Miller?

  Because again, you know, one of the ways that you develop self-esteem is you chalk up some wins.

• 31:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 31:46Lewis Howes?

  And you've, you've proven it to yourself. Like, okay, I've, I've created some results.

• 31:49Donald Miller?

  Yeah, hopefully. I think there's people who they never, they never get to the point where they prove themselves, so they just burn themselves out.

• 31:55Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:56Donald Miller?

  Trying to, trying to prove they're not whatever, deficient.

• 31:58Lewis Howes?

  You talked about the, if you took snapshots of you as a villain, you know, in your past.

• 32:04Donald Miller?

  Please don't.

• 32:05Lewis Howes?

  You know, and it was up on a big screen for the world to see.

• 32:07Donald Miller?

  Oh, yeah, I'd be dead.

• 32:09Lewis Howes?

  Your words out of context are taken in.

• 32:11Donald Miller?

  Yeah. Well, in context, they weren't that much better.

• 32:13Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 32:16Lewis Howes?

  How important is the spoken word and the internal word for any four of these characters and for our overall identity to live a meaningful life?

• 32:28Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Lewis Howes?

  The spoken word, what we say to our, you know, to ourselves or someone else, and the internal word, we speak to ourselves.

• 32:34Donald Miller?

  Yeah. You know, there's an assignment in the book, and I do this.

• 32:39Lewis Howes?

  The eulogy one?

• 32:40Donald Miller?

  Four mornings a week at least. I read my own eulogy. And it says, it outlines the three stories that I've got in my life. One is the story of my family, which we've built a retreat center called Goose Hill. You can't pay to go there.

• 32:57Lewis Howes?

  Invite them.

• 32:58Donald Miller?

  It's friends and family, and, but that story is specifically designed to give my family something to do. It's designed so that we can have some goals and accomplish those goals together because, you know, the story can't just be about, well, let's have a great family. You create a great family when you start a family business that tries to raise the money this summer to go to Disney World. That's a great story. And then the family bonds around that story. So that's the family story. We have this retreat center. I have a business story. Business Made Simple is my company. And I really want to build six different frameworks that are so good, they help small businesses grow, and then I want to take that to a major university

• 33:42Donald Miller?

  and have the Business Made Simple School for Entrepreneurs. And I want to teach at that school. So that's, that's my goal. And I want that story to happen, and I'm actively pursuing that happening. And then there's a third goal that's called Build the Middle Class. And I own buildthemiddleclass.com. I haven't done anything with it yet. But I'm working with a bunch of folks out of DC to identify, just happens to be eight pieces of legislation that will get America moving again. And bring moderate Republicans and Blue Dog Democrats together, a middle of the country. So that we can stop being controlled by these extremists who are really wacko nut jobs.

• 34:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:23Donald Miller?

  And there's so many of us who just see eye to eye, whether you're Republican or Democrat, doesn't matter. We all want the same thing on healthcare, we want the same thing on education. So that third story, which is really the story from, you know, 55 on. I'm starting to put little things on the plot. Have a weekly meeting with a think tank in DC.

• 34:40Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 34:40Donald Miller?

  Starting to take notes on it. That's gonna be the third and final story of my career, my life. The cool thing about reading your eulogy is you know what your stories are. And the biggest benefit of that is you know what to say no to. I have 30 years left. The average American lives to be about 78.5. I'm hoping, you know, I've lost some weight, I'm drinking my apple cider vinegar.

• 35:03Lewis Howes?

  You look young, man, you look healthy.

• 35:05Donald Miller?

  But I'm trying to live longer, but the reality is I've got 30 years. So when there's a story about, you know, Don, let's go make a TV show about this. I look at my eulogy and I go, I would love to do it, but I can't. I got three stories left.

• 35:22Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 35:23Donald Miller?

  That's it, three stories left. And we don't have time.

• 35:27Lewis Howes?

  What happens if one of these stories doesn't, either doesn't work out? Or something changes where there's no longer the ability to take on that story?

• 35:35Donald Miller?

  Well, it doesn't matter in terms of experiencing meaning. Because you actually, according to Viktor Frankl, you actually experience meaning. There's three things that have to happen for you to experience meaning. One is you have to have a project that demands your attention. A reason to get out of bed in the morning. There has to be an open story loop in your brain.

• 35:55Lewis Howes?

  That you need to close.

• 35:56Donald Miller?

  Will Lewis Howes finish the new book? There's a story, right? And you have to have that. If there's no story, you're toast. So that's the first thing. The second thing is a community, nature, or art, things that pull you out of yourself. And then the third thing is fascinating. It's a optimistic or redemptive perspective on suffering.

• 36:23Donald Miller?

  So basically, you have to embrace suffering and not resist it. You have to understand that while suffering is painful, it isn't a bad thing.

• 36:33Lewis Howes?

  What's the last one again?

• 36:34Donald Miller?

  An optimistic perspective on suffering. If you have those three things, you will experience a deep sense of meaning in life. And I figured that out when I read his book, Man's Search for Meaning. And I applied it to my life, starting about 12 years ago. And I have not struggled with depression. I have not struggled with any of that. There's been sad days, tragedies hit my life. But there's not been a single day when I haven't experienced a deep sense of meaning. And he considers that an antidote to depression. In fact, he developed logotherapy, a therapy of meaning, in order to take teenagers in Vienna

• 37:16Donald Miller?

  in the 1930s through small groups where they would identify a project, embed themselves into a community, and find, you know, yes, you're abused by your father. What's good about that? Yes, it's a horrible thing, we wouldn't wish that on anyone. What benefit is there? What does that make possible because you're abused by your father? Well, it makes you a more tender person, makes you aware of suffering, makes you a better human being in some ways. And if you can redeem and metabolize your suffering and make it turn into something useful in your life, you have meaning. And what happened was that they had a suicide problem in Vienna, especially around the time grades were released. So the hospital system in Vienna said, Dr. Frankel, you've done a lot of work with this, can you help? He puts all these kids into small groups and under his watch, not a single person commits suicide.

• 38:00Donald Miller?

  And so I think a lot of our restlessness and boredom, what it actually is, it's a lack of meaning. And I believe you can create and generate meaning if you do those three things.

• 38:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I think Tony Robbins talks about this, where he was like...

• 38:14Donald Miller?

  He loves Viktor Frankl.

• 38:15Lewis Howes?

  He loved his mom, and his mom used to like beat him and like pour soap down his mouth or something like, does a bunch of stuff that like, you know, kind of ruined him in some ways, but made him so, care so much about human beings and helping heal people and improve the quality of life of people, that that drove him to become better.

• 38:32Donald Miller?

  Yeah. So here's an interesting fact that you just pointed out. Villains and heroes actually have the exact same backstory. They have, both the villain's story and the backstory of the hero are pain. Remember I said the hero is an orphan?

• 38:47Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 38:47Donald Miller?

  The hero is almost always an orphan in some way. They're orphaned at the beginning of the movie, they have pain. The villain, if you'll watch the movie closely, screenwriters will put a scar on their face. A limp, some sort of speech impediment. What they're indicating is that this person has a painful backstory. So the difference between the villain and the hero is one thing, it's how they respond to pain.

• 39:07Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, because they were abandoned also.

• 39:09Donald Miller?

  That's right.

• 39:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:10Donald Miller?

  And the villain says, "The world hurt me, I'm gonna hurt it back." And the hero says, "The world hurt me, I'm not gonna let this happen to anybody else."

• 39:17Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 39:18Donald Miller?

  It's just literally how you decide to react to pain that causes you to be the villain or the victim.

• 39:23Lewis Howes?

  It's the third part of a meaningful mission. You know, it's the third part of the framework you're talking about, which is,

• 39:28Donald Miller?

  That's right, yeah.

• 39:29Lewis Howes?

  What's the benefit from your pain? What's the optimism from your suffering?

• 39:33Donald Miller?

  Yeah, it's how you respond to pain that either turns you into the victim or turns you into the hero. And determines the quality of the rest of your life.

• 39:40Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that interesting?

• 39:41Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 39:42Lewis Howes?

  But at some point, there's probably a need to be a healing that occurs for the hero to become a hero.

• 39:48Donald Miller?

  Yeah, but I think the healing happens in action.

• 39:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Donald Miller?

  You know, I think it happens in action. Going to therapy, getting into a relationship, learning from past mistakes.

• 39:57Lewis Howes?

  Helping someone else.

• 39:58Donald Miller?

  Yeah, it's all growth is, is learning from our mistakes.

• 40:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, my therapist says that healing is not an event, it's a journey. It's a consistent journey of showing up in that process.

• 40:08Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 40:08Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't just, "Oh, I'm healed in one moment," it's like constantly showing up. Is there a way to end suffering, do you think?

• 40:15Donald Miller?

  In our lives?

• 40:15Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 40:16Donald Miller?

  You don't want to.

• 40:17Lewis Howes?

  Why not?

• 40:18Donald Miller?

  Because you'll stop growing. Yeah, you'll stop growing. You know, I believe, and I don't really understand why, Louis, but I believe there's something fundamentally broken in the nature of the world. It's easy to not think that if you live in America, but leave the country for a little bit.

• 40:36Lewis Howes?

  Right. A lot of things are broken.

• 40:38Donald Miller?

  Go through, you go through Iraq. You know, there's something fundamentally broken in the world. So I don't think in this world, you're gonna get away from suffering. And then there's also just something fundamentally broken in our hearts, right? Because we need more than we are capable of getting. And so there's a deficiency in all of us. And so for us to say, "Gosh, this hurts, let me turn around and help other people not have to experience..."

• 41:08Donald Miller?

  Pain as much, that's the, those, those are the very people that we call heroes. That's the, that's the characteristic, you know? And so, um, without suffering, you have no opportunity to be a hero. Without pain, there's no story. Without conflict, there's no story. So let me tell you a story. Yeah. Buddy of mine, um, he lives here in LA, loves to play volleyball. Okay. And he gets a call and he says, hey, come down to the beach. We're playing volleyball. All your buddies are here, let's go. He, he's like, can't believe this. Walks out, looks down, sees his buddies playing volleyball down the beach. Goes down, starts playing volleyball with them. You know, they play a few games, each game ends in a tie. And somebody says, well, I'm hungry. It's Tuesday, it's Taco Tuesday, let's go to the taco truck. They go to the taco, they get some brisket tacos, they get some fish. Is this story interesting? No. You're sitting there going, okay, when is this story gonna get started? Right.

• 41:53Donald Miller?

  What you're actually saying is, where's the problem? Ah. So without the problem, there is no story. So let's say my buddy gets a call. They're playing volleyball down the beach. He walks down to the beach, he's looking down and an earthquake hits. The ground opens up, half his friends fall in. Now we got a story. Right. So until there is a challenge in your life, or until you actually engage or even dream up a challenge, I'm gonna run a marathon, I'm gonna ask this girl out, I'm gonna start a business, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna, what, I'm gonna lose a hundred pounds. Until you, you say, that's something I don't think I can do, but I'm gonna try. Your life is boring. Wow. And what, what do we do? We seek comfort.

• 42:37Donald Miller?

  We actually run the opposite direction. Mm-hmm. And so, once we engage this idea that suffering, it actually benefits us, it transforms us and it's good, all of life suddenly has this different perspective. I have a morning ritual with Emmeline. She's six months old. For the last six months, I'm the guy who gets her out of bed, changes the diaper, and does the first bottle. Because Betsy's got to do some mom things and it's best if Betsy eats breakfast and, and I can hand her off and I go write. So I've, I've pushed back my writing hour by one hour so that I can do this. And every morning, almost without fail, Emmeline and I walk to the front door and we greet the day.

• 43:22Donald Miller?

  We open the door, we step out on the porch and we point out three or four things that are beautiful. That's it. We just go light on the hills. Those leaves are moving. June Carter, our dog is chasing a squirrel. That's hilarious.

• 43:34Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 43:34Donald Miller?

  Snow on the fence, you know, whatever it is. And some days, it's just completely gray. And it's actually a bit challenging for me.

• 43:42Lewis Howes?

  What's beautiful, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:44Donald Miller?

  There's no light on the hills, there's no snow. And what I say to Emeline is I say, Emeline, how beautiful is it that today is gonna make tomorrow special?

• 43:53Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 43:54Donald Miller?

  Right? And so even the hurt, the suffering that we feel is even a bad relationship. I would not be so grateful for my life if I had not had my heart broken. I just wouldn't.

• 44:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:05Donald Miller?

  And so pain actually serves us tremendously.

• 44:07Lewis Howes?

  That's something I talk about with my girlfriend where I was just like, I'm so glad that I went through all these challenges because I really value the peace, the love, the acceptance that you bring.

• 44:16Donald Miller?

  The lack of drama.

• 44:17Lewis Howes?

  There's no drama. No drama, man.

• 44:19Donald Miller?

  All right, I don't want to say it on camera, but marry the woman.

• 44:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly, yeah.

• 44:23Donald Miller?

  Lock that down.

• 44:24Lewis Howes?

  Man, it's crazy that he, you know, and I felt like, I always felt like I was, and I take full responsibility because I chose the relationships and I stayed in the relationships, so it's again.

• 44:32Donald Miller?

  Yeah, but you're learning.

• 44:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, nothing wrong with the people, it just wasn't the right alignment. But I kept thinking to myself, man, I feel like I'm running at like a six in my life, out of 10, like in these relationships.

• 44:43Donald Miller?

  You'll regret that.

• 44:45Lewis Howes?

  And I was just like, man, I feel like it's holding me back from my mission, from my, my health. And they aren't doing it, I'm doing it by staying, so I needed to learn how to heal and, and move on, which is, was an amazing journey, but it's a...

• 44:59Donald Miller?

  You know what? I think you're just getting started.

• 45:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's how I feel.

• 45:03Donald Miller?

  I think this, I think what you've found now is what you're actually gonna build on.

• 45:07Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:08Donald Miller?

  It, it's, you know, that's the foundation. And you know, Betsy and I kind of made an agreement when we got married, we said, hey, let's leave the drama outside of this house. You and I will go out and face the drama.

• 45:19Lewis Howes?

  But the energy that I want to spend changing the world can't be wasted on each other in fight. Can't be.

• 45:25Donald Miller?

  It just can't be.

• 45:26Lewis Howes?

  And it, and I'm so glad that she's in alignment with that.

• 45:28Donald Miller?

  You and your wife are either gonna have a mission, or she's gonna be the mission and you're gonna be the mission.

• 45:33Lewis Howes?

  Gosh, there's so many marriages, I feel like, that are, that have drama, and it's like you're constantly working on the marriage to fix something.

• 45:40Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 45:41Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that true?

• 45:42Donald Miller?

  Would you rather change the world than change your wife?

• 45:44Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 45:44Donald Miller?

  Yeah. I've heard a lot of women feel that way about their husbands.

• 45:47Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 45:47Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 45:48Lewis Howes?

  What needs to happen in order for people in relationships, whether they're married or not, to get out of drama and into... Peaceful experiences and move into their their energy into the world as opposed to stressing about the relationship. What do you think needs to happen? Because so many marriages and relationships are struggling.

• 46:06Donald Miller?

  Yeah. I don't think two people should spend their life metaphorically looking into each other's eyes. I think they should be shoulder to shoulder looking at something to do. And I think what so many relationships are missing is a story. We are going to start a business. We are going to start a grocery store where we give away the food to to people for free. We are going to build a retreat center. We are going to write a book together. We are going. Stop this. Stop this because this isn't what life is about. What we need is a partner, a group protagonist. What a family is, is a group protagonist story. And what a story has to have is an objective, something hard to do.

• 46:51Lewis Howes?

  To overcome or to do.

• 46:52Donald Miller?

  To overcome or to accomplish. And then here's the next dangerous part. When you overcome it and you accomplish it, if you don't get another story started, you're going to hit what Viktor Frankl calls the existential vacuum. It's a narrative void. It's it's there's again, it's a blank screen that I'm looking at and nothing is happening.

• 47:09Lewis Howes?

  What's the meaning? What am I supposed to be doing in my life now?

• 47:11Donald Miller?

  Yeah. When when I read Viktor Frankl's book, I had written about 10 of us rode our bicycles from Los Angeles to Delaware.

• 47:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 47:22Donald Miller?

  We did it one summer.

• 47:23Lewis Howes?

  How long did that take?

• 47:24Donald Miller?

  Partly how I'd lost weight. It took seven weeks.

• 47:27Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 47:28Donald Miller?

  And so we did that. And I'd lived enough stories and written some books and kind of that I knew once we got to Washington DC, we had one more day. You can cross Delaware in a day. It's about 75 miles and from DC. And I knew, man, two weeks from now, I'm going to be clinically depressed.

• 47:47Lewis Howes?

  Because you have no mission next.

• 47:49Donald Miller?

  Well, not only that, but you know, we're eating seven to 10,000 calories a day. Our bodies are completely jacked up. They're just screwed up. You know, we're, you know, we're with each other. We're giggling and laughing. We're experiencing pain every day. We're doing, you know, it's a story. And as soon as the story's over, I realized I'm going to be sitting in the theater. And, and, and I picked up Viktor Frankl's book in the Holocaust museum. Because, you know, he was a survivor of the Holocaust. I picked it up and I read it on the flight home. And basically, that book screamed at me, get involved in another story now. Do not go home and sit down.

• 48:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, well, maybe it takes three days to recover your body, but then start planning.

• 48:29Donald Miller?

  Yeah, for me, it was about three weeks.

• 48:30Lewis Howes?

  And start planning the next story.

• 48:31Donald Miller?

  Start playing that story. And so what I did was, um, uh, I got a call saying, Dom, will you come do a little prayer at Democratic National Convention? Well, I'm a Republican. And I said, yeah, I'll do it. I went and I'd known about Barack Obama. He was a senator. He had some great fatherlessness legislation. And to the, to the group there, I said, hey, listen, um, what's he going to do on fatherhood? And they outlined this whole plan. I said, can I go around the country and just say what this man's going to do if he's elected president on one of our critical issues in this country? They said, yes. So I just became a surrogate speaker. I lived, there were about three of us. We basically lived in our cars and changed into suits and, in, uh, in airports. And I would fly back between all the swing states.

• 49:16Donald Miller?

  And I was doing it partly because I wanted this guy to be president. He's a pretty moderate, reasonable guy. He actually, he actually did some great things. But I was also doing it because I didn't want to have an existential vacuum. I needed something exciting to involve myself in. And it worked. And while I was on the campaign trail, I'm getting text messages from friends who were on the trip saying, I've never been so depressed and I don't know what to do.

• 49:38Lewis Howes?

  Who are on the bike trip.

• 49:39Donald Miller?

  Exactly. Do you guys want to meet in Delaware and ride back across that way? And, uh, you know, um, so I think a lot of people who are listening to this conversation and they're feeling like their life is going nowhere, I would say to you, get yourself involved in a story. If you don't have a mission, find somebody with a mission and join them.

• 49:59Lewis Howes?

  And get involved.

• 50:00Donald Miller?

  Get involved.

• 50:01Lewis Howes?

  How many parts to a story are there? And what are the parts?

• 50:04Donald Miller?

  Well, the basic story is a character that wants something and overcomes conflict to get it. That's it. Right, Luke wants to destroy the Death Star, has to overcome his own insecurities and physical inadequacies in order to learn to be a Jedi, in order to destroy the Death Star.

• 50:25Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 50:26Donald Miller?

  That's it. Uh, King George wants to overcome a stutter because he's been saddled with the kingship of UK. He has to overcome that stutter with Lionel, the drama teacher, in order to give the final speech. That's every single story you can imagine. Now, the key is, you can pause any, any good movie and say, what does the hero want? And if the audience can't answer, you got a bad movie. So if I were to look at your life and pause it and say, what does Louis want? And we don't know? And to be honest, Louis doesn't know? Louis is having a bad life experience. And he will tell you so.

• 51:02Lewis Howes?

  If you don't know what you want.

• 51:03Donald Miller?

  If you don't, if you can't identify. Remember I said earlier, I want three things. I want Goose Hill to operate as a family home. I want Business Made Simple to be taught in universities.

• 51:13Lewis Howes?

  Build the middle class.

• 51:14Donald Miller?

  And I want to build the middle class. If you pause Don's life, there are three, he's involved in three stories. So there's zero chance for an existential vacuum if you're involved in a story.

• 51:22Lewis Howes?

  So if you don't know what you want, what happens?

• 51:24Donald Miller?

  If you don't know what you want, or if you have not joined a movement that wants something.

• 51:28Lewis Howes?

  That has a mission.

• 51:29Donald Miller?

  You have what Viktor Frankl calls an existential vacuum, and what I call a narrative void. A lack of story in your life.

• 51:36Lewis Howes?

  And a lack of story is boring.

• 51:38Donald Miller?

  Not only a lack of story is boring, a lack of story is dangerous. Because, uh, you're, you're standing around on set and the other actors are doing something and you have no role to play here. It's extremely dangerous. It's gonna lead to, you know, a mental health breakdown. You know, so the key is to get something going that I call narrative traction. And narrative traction happens when you become interested in your own life again. And the only way you can get narrative traction and become interested in your own life is to actually set an objective before you, which opens a story question. Will Don be able to run the marathon? Will the company be able to make a profit this year? Will, will the woman of my dreams marry me?

• 52:21Donald Miller?

  Will we be able to finish this book? Will we, that, if there is no story question in your life, you have no narrative traction and you're gonna end up in an existential void.

• 52:31Lewis Howes?

  How do you? Define what you want if you don't know. What if you're like, well, I don't know what I want. Or I want, I have so many ideas, I want these 10 different things.

• 52:41Donald Miller?

  Okay, well, that's another lesson right there. If you want 10 different things, your movie's not gonna work out. You know, if, if Jason Bourne wants to know who he really is and also lose 30 pounds and also marry the girl and also adopt a cat, but he wants to do it ethically because he travels a lot, we have ruined the movie. We have absolutely ruined the movie. And so there are a lot of people who are stimulation junkies. They just want to be stimulated. So if you just want to be stimulated, that's not a, you know, if you went to a movie about somebody who just wanted to be stimulated, so they're getting drunk, they're getting laid, they're doing all this kind of stuff, and you watch that movie, you would be watching a movie that was hopeless. You would be saying, I feel so sorry for this guy. Right? But when that person says, this is meaningless.

• 53:23Donald Miller?

  What I actually want to do is be an entrepreneur and build a business and prove to my dad that I really didn't have to go to college. Now we got a story. Now we got a story. But you've got to write that down and you've got to put together a plan and pursue it every day. If you, if you choose too many things, your, the story is hard to follow and it'll be hard for you to follow.

• 53:45Lewis Howes?

  How many things can, how many things can we choose in a year?

• 53:49Donald Miller?

  In a year? Well, I think-

• 53:52Lewis Howes?

  Can we have like a health story? My health story this year is gonna be this, my business story, then my family relationship story, is that too much?

• 53:59Donald Miller?

  No, you just said it. The answer's three.

• 54:01Lewis Howes?

  Three.

• 54:02Donald Miller?

  Yeah. So the human brain loves three. It love, I don't know why it loves three, I'm sure there's been some studies. Four might also work, five won't work. We've, you know, over and over, even in sales, if you give people three options, they'll choose one, if you give them four, they'll, they'll choose slightly less, if you give them five, they won't choose any. So the, the brain can really prioritize about three things.

• 54:23Lewis Howes?

  In a, in a month, in a year, in a, how long?

• 54:25Donald Miller?

  Well, I, I wouldn't put a timeline on it.

• 54:27Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 54:27Donald Miller?

  You know, I, you know, I would just say, these are the three things that I want to do. When one of them is done, you retire that story and you plug in another one. And I really like, I like the whole health, relationships, career.

• 54:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, me too.

• 54:40Donald Miller?

  I like that, that trinity.

• 54:42Lewis Howes?

  It's in, Rory Vaden, our friend, has a, a book called Procrastinate on Purpose. He's like, you know, you might have a lot of goals and dreams, but what is the most important thing that you want to do right now? And then- Kind of put these on the back and procrastinate it until it become, until you accomplish the main thing and then the next thing.

• 55:00Donald Miller?

  A hundred percent agree with that. In fact, I, I, there's a planner in the back of the book and there's, in the back of the book, there's a daily planner. It's actually a morning ritual that you fill out and you, and you identify your top three priorities. And then there's literally another line that says secondary tasks.

• 55:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:14Donald Miller?

  Because you don't want to confuse picking up the dry cleaning with working on the book.

• 55:17Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 55:19Donald Miller?

  Go with wrinkled clothes, but don't not finish the book.

• 55:22Lewis Howes?

  Do the main thing first. Yeah, exactly, exactly. When did you write your eulogy first?

• 55:28Donald Miller?

  I wrote my eulogy about 10 years ago.

• 55:31Lewis Howes?

  What did that do for you when you did it?

• 55:32Donald Miller?

  It gave me incredible clarity about what my life needs to become. Incredible clarity. Yeah, writing my eulogy told me what direction my life needed to go. And I, I read it, I edit it pretty frequently.

• 55:48Lewis Howes?

  How is it different from 10 years ago to now?

• 55:50Donald Miller?

  Oh, it's completely different. Uh, in 10 years, I've realized how much a human being can do. And, uh, it was, it, it was, uh, they were, they were small visions 10 years ago and now they are not small visions.

• 56:03Lewis Howes?

  Really? What were they like 10 years ago?

• 56:05Donald Miller?

  Oh, it's like, you know, get out of debt, maybe write a book someday. Now it's fix the government.

• 56:11Lewis Howes?

  Change the world. Yeah, yeah.

• 56:13Donald Miller?

  Yeah, change the world.

• 56:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 56:15Donald Miller?

  Yeah, so, uh, and those, and those are all 100% completely doable. You know, these are things that we can do in our lifetimes.

• 56:22Lewis Howes?

  Wow. So how often you read it?

• 56:25Donald Miller?

  About four times, three to, three to five times a week, but about four times. Actually, there's software that my team has created and you can click, I read my eulogy and it will literally count the number of times you've done it. It's so gamified.

• 56:39Lewis Howes?

  That's pretty cool.

• 56:39Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 56:40Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think it's important to read it frequently?

• 56:43Donald Miller?

  There's two reasons. One is, as I said earlier, it directs your life. Two, and this is an even bigger reason, it reminds you that you're gonna die.

• 56:52Donald Miller?

  There's something unbelievably sobering.

• 56:56Donald Miller?

  About recognizing the fact that your story is gonna end, you're gonna leave the planet, and you're not coming back.

• 57:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:03Donald Miller?

  You're not coming back.

• 57:04Lewis Howes?

  I think it's the country of Bhutan that is the happiest country in the world. And the reason, one of the reasons that they say is because they think about their death either three or five times a day. They think about their death many times a day, and they're considered the happiest country in the world. There's actually an app called We Croak that reminds you.

• 57:24Donald Miller?

  How much time you got?

• 57:25Lewis Howes?

  It reminds you three or five times a day, you're gonna die. It says, "You're going to die," and then it gives you a-

• 57:31Donald Miller?

  I love that app.

• 57:32Lewis Howes?

  And it gives you an inspirational quote to reflect on the positive of life.

• 57:37Donald Miller?

  I didn't know about that app, but I love that idea.

• 57:39Lewis Howes?

  It's called We Croak. I think it's called We Croak or We Croak. And it's just a simple little app, just pains you three times a day.

• 57:47Donald Miller?

  There's my guys, my development team, I've asked them, and it's up to them, I don't control them, but I've asked them, "Do you think on the eulogy page, you can actually have a countdown timer based on the average life expectancy of the country that you live in?"

• 58:01Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy.

• 58:02Donald Miller?

  Yeah. You know how much time I've got left?

• 58:04Lewis Howes?

  You said thirty years, right?

• 58:05Donald Miller?

  Yeah, two Lucys. Two Lucys.

• 58:08Lewis Howes?

  Two Lucys?

• 58:09Donald Miller?

  Mm-hmm. Lucy was like Chocolate Lab.

• 58:11Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 58:12Donald Miller?

  And she lived to be fourteen years old, and my wife called her my first wife, because Lucy and I were married before Betsy and I were married.

• 58:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 58:21Donald Miller?

  And we put her down two Saturdays ago.

• 58:23Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 58:24Donald Miller?

  And it was absolutely heartbreaking.

• 58:26Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 58:26Donald Miller?

  And when I sit there-

• 58:27Lewis Howes?

  I met Lucy, I think, when I came to-

• 58:28Donald Miller?

  Yep, you did.

• 58:29Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 58:29Donald Miller?

  Yeah. And, you know, and-

• 58:31Lewis Howes?

  They have photos with you and Lucy, I think.

• 58:34Donald Miller?

  Yeah, I mean Lucy was a rock star. I mean, I took her, she was, she was literally my companion. She taught me so much about her. She got me to Betsy. And then she got Betsy and I to Emeline.

• 58:44Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 58:45Donald Miller?

  And she had, you know, a big tumor, terrible arthritis, and finally Betsy said, "Look, you know, you're hitting that point where you're actually-" Punishing her to keep her alive and alive. So we, I made the right decision.

• 58:57Lewis Howes?

  Well, fifteen years though, huh?

• 58:59Donald Miller?

  Be a little over fourteen years.

• 59:01Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 59:01Donald Miller?

  So when I think about, when I brought Lucy home, to when we said goodbye to Lucy, so much happened, Louis. But the reality is, I have two more of those.

• 59:13Lewis Howes?

  That's insane to think about.

• 59:14Donald Miller?

  Yeah, like I can get one more puppy and I'll have the same painful and beautiful and wonderful experience. And then one after that, and then we will be put down together.

• 59:23Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my God.

• 59:24Donald Miller?

  It's over.

• 59:24Lewis Howes?

  I mean, if you could extend your life longer, that's great. Maybe you have three is what you're saying, like if.

• 59:29Donald Miller?

  I can't get it. I can, maybe. I mean, they invent some sort of drug or whatever, but yeah.

• 59:34Lewis Howes?

  What's the life expectancy?

• 59:36Donald Miller?

  Seventy-eight point five, and I'm hoping to make eighty and, and you know, everything goes icing on the cake.

• 59:40Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 59:41Donald Miller?

  You know, uh, you know, a lot of people who are in their hundreds. I don't think I'm going to be one of them, but a lot of people, yeah, we might be able to make it. But when.

• 59:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow, two Lucys. Yeah, there's a guy, uh, do you know Nas Daily? Have you heard of this guy? He's a video creator who, um, did a video day, a day for like a thousand days in a row. And he's got a, you know, I don't know, fifty or a hundred million followers on Facebook and Instagram and creates all these viral videos around the world explaining different things. And he wears the same T-shirt every day. The exact same shirt. He's probably got a hundred of them, but it says thirty-four percent of life left. Or he's used, he's used thirty-four percent of his life. So every year, he adds percentage in the same shirt. Reminds people watching him and reminds himself how much of his life he has lived.

• 1:00:28Donald Miller?

  And I, and it creates amazing wisdom, doesn't it?

• 1:00:30Lewis Howes?

  And it creates urgency and it focuses you on what's important and your mission and your goals. And you don't live distracted if you're like, well, I've lived a certain percentage. I only have this much left. So that, that attention on the eulogy or the shirt or whatever is, or the We Croak app, something to have our attention on our death. I'm hearing you say is important.

• 1:00:51Donald Miller?

  It is. And you know, there's something, Betsy and I just made a decision the other day. I can't remember what the opportunity was, but it was a really big financial opportunity. And, um, we said, look, you know, it, it's, it's one day that you don't get to see your daughter. You know, is it worth it? And even this, I'm in LA, I live in Nashville, flew out this morning, I'll be in bed tonight. I will see her tonight.

• 1:01:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Donald Miller?

  You know, because you just go, but you know, if we didn't die, yeah, of course I'm going to go make that money.

• 1:01:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:01:20Donald Miller?

  We got forever.

• 1:01:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Donald Miller?

  You know, so it creates this real beauty of urgency. And also, you start going, well, if I'm going to die and I can't take any money with me, maybe I should pay my employees more.

• 1:01:32Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:33Donald Miller?

  Right? Maybe I should, maybe I should go not chase that money because the reality is, you know, what I want is Emmeline to, when she's 80, to go to Goose Hill and explain to her children and her grandchildren what happened here. And if I'm on an airplane, what needs to happen here for her to do that? Won't happen.

• 1:01:54Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:55Donald Miller?

  So I gotta be home.

• 1:01:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:01:57Donald Miller?

  And without death, I don't think I would have that realization.

• 1:01:59Lewis Howes?

  And without her, you probably would have gone and did the money thing or whatever, and been gone for the day because you'd be like, well, there's no child here, so I can go and make this money and...

• 1:02:08Donald Miller?

  Yeah. And there's seasons of life, too. But there's just practical stuff, life insurance policies, preparing financially. You know, Emmeline will live to be, they're saying our kids are going to live into their hundreds.

• 1:02:20Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy.

• 1:02:21Donald Miller?

  You know, that's where technology's going. So if, if I make it to 80, Emmeline's 30 when I pass away, she's going to do 70 years without Dad.

• 1:02:28Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:02:29Donald Miller?

  70, by the time she dies, she will not really remember what I look like.

• 1:02:33Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:02:34Donald Miller?

  And she will have, she will have altogether 12 seconds worth of memories at one time of the 30 years that I spent with her.

• 1:02:43Lewis Howes?

  12 seconds? Why is that? That's what the brain can...

• 1:02:46Donald Miller?

  Think about, think about, right now, think about the seconds that you can remember spending with your Dad.

• 1:02:50Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 1:02:51Donald Miller?

  You know, they're just little moments, like when he passed you the popcorn at the game. They're just little, these little milliseconds. I'm not going to risk a chance to

• 1:02:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:03:00Donald Miller?

  create some of those, embed those in her brain. Yeah, it's not worth it.

• 1:03:03Lewis Howes?

  What do you think's the biggest mistake you've made?

• 1:03:05Donald Miller?

  That I've made?

• 1:03:06Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:07Donald Miller?

  Thought of myself as a victim. For ten years. Were you? Lost, lost a decade. Yeah, I lost a decade. Which ten years? Certainly, very late teens through late twenties. You know, I did get a, I did get two books out during that time, so victims don't get books done. Right, right. But I was three hundred eighty-seven pounds. You know, I'm two-ten now. That's amazing. Um, thanks. Congrats. Do you know what, one of the main reasons I was three hundred eighty-seven pounds? I was subconsciously convinced that if my life were so miserable and I couldn't control myself, a rescuer would come and help me. Wow. And when I realized, you know what, what happened that? You were the rescuer. Well, partly.

• 1:03:49Donald Miller?

  But what happened was, I suddenly realized that chicks didn't like victims. Right, right, right. And everything went, oh, we're done being a victim because I really would like to have some nice conversations with some girls. You know, and when you realize, like, everything that you think you're gonna get by thinking of yourself as a victim, you're not gonna get. Mm-hmm. It, the person who gets that is the person who's actually heroic. You know, who's humble, honest, and willing to transform. You know, realizes they don't have the capability to get this thing done. And so, they transform. What I don't, what I don't like, or I'm not super comfortable with, are books and ideas that say you are enough. You're not enough. Mm-hmm.

• 1:04:33Donald Miller?

  If you, if you are an unhealthy person, you're not enough to be in a healthy relationship. You'd have to change. What we're trying to avoid there is judgment. But here's the key. Let's admit we're not enough and leave the judgment out of it. Let's admit, you know what, I'm not enough to be in a healthy relationship, but I get to change. And changing is fun, and it's exciting, and I can't wait to see who I become. Mm-hmm. But, you know, we have to hold this idea that we're not there yet and a lack of judgment at the same time. Yeah. And then we have this really fun, meaningful life in which we get to transform. I like that a lot. Yeah, I wouldn't say you're not enough, I would say it's okay to not be enough.

• 1:05:15Donald Miller?

  But you're not enough. You know, instead of saying like, you are enough and you've got everything. Let's actually say, you're not enough and that's okay.

• 1:05:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I like that.

• 1:05:25Donald Miller?

  Do you want to change? Yeah, I want to change. Okay, let's go on a journey together.

• 1:05:30Lewis Howes?

  It sounds like, um, yeah, you're not enough and this is where maybe the story begins.

• 1:05:35Donald Miller?

  That's exactly it.

• 1:05:36Lewis Howes?

  You're not enough, it's okay. You don't need to beat yourself up.

• 1:05:39Donald Miller?

  You are not enough, so what does that make possible?

• 1:05:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:05:43Donald Miller?

  It makes a beautiful story possible when you become enough.

• 1:05:45Lewis Howes?

  Right, what you can overcome. This means you have an opportunity to overcome something.

• 1:05:49Donald Miller?

  Can you imagine if, um, The King's Speech, which won an Oscar?

• 1:05:53Lewis Howes?

  Great movie.

• 1:05:53Donald Miller?

  Great movie. Can you imagine The King's Speech? You know, he speaks with a slight stutter and the drama teacher meets with him once and the stutter's gone?

• 1:06:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:06:03Donald Miller?

  Movie does not win an Oscar.

• 1:06:04Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:06:05Donald Miller?

  Great stories that we get to experience are stories about us overcoming deficiencies.

• 1:06:10Lewis Howes?

  Right, challenges.

• 1:06:11Donald Miller?

  So thank God you have a deficiency. Now you have an opportunity to make something really cool happen in your life.

• 1:06:15Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:16Donald Miller?

  You know, and to get to experience it, not just watch it, get to actually experience it.

• 1:06:20Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. So you think the biggest mistake was being a victim for 10 years? What was the biggest lesson you learned about yourself in those 10 years?

• 1:06:30Donald Miller?

  Well, I mean, you know, the biggest lesson I learned about myself is, is if you think about yourself as a victim, there is no happiness.

• 1:06:36Lewis Howes?

  Do victims get a benefit from being a victim?

• 1:06:39Donald Miller?

  Yeah, they attract resources. They, um, they shirk responsibility. Other people have to do their work. Uh, that's the, that's the attractiveness of being a victim. And if you learn, both victimhood and villainy are coping mechanisms. They're how we cope with really hard things. Um, neither of them are productive. The only thing that's productive is saying, okay, I, I, this is a hard thing. I accept it. I accept the dynamics that are in play here. I do not deny them. I do not reject them.

• 1:07:13Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:14Donald Miller?

  Let me grieve a second. Now let me engage heroically and transform into the person that it takes to conquer this thing.

• 1:07:21Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:21Donald Miller?

  And that could take years, you know?

• 1:07:24Lewis Howes?

  When is the earliest someone can become a guide?

• 1:07:27Donald Miller?

  Well, you could become a guide at roughly one year old, right? I mean, anytime that you-

• 1:07:33Lewis Howes?

  If you have a little sibling-

• 1:07:33Donald Miller?

  Because it's always in you. It's always in you. You know, the biggest, for sort of big transformation, becoming a guide, would probably be parenthood. When you, when your heart is suddenly right there, and you want everything for this kid, and you want to leave a legacy, that's probably the biggest transformation. But anytime that you realize, "I like accomplishing things, but it's not fun to accomplishing, to accomplish things if I'm doing it alone. I want to take other people with me." Then that's, that's guide characteristics.

• 1:08:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Where do you think you'd be if you would have had your daughter 10 years ago?

• 1:08:14Donald Miller?

  Well, I'm, I'm always glad that things happen when they happen, because I just don't feel like I would have been ready.

• 1:08:19Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:08:19Donald Miller?

  Betsy, you know, we, we had a baby when I was 49, I turned 52 months later. And I actually asked Betsy, I said, "You know, what do you think of, of, if I'd have done this so much younger?" And she said, "I'm actually grateful that you're, you're where you are." And I said, "Why?" You know, and I thought, you know, I thought we have more money, or whatever. You know, if you had it younger, I would have still been in my angsty, like, "I will conquer." You know, "The kid's irritating me because I've got this thing, I've got to get done, and I've got to prove myself." And that doesn't happen. So I'm, I'm grateful for that. I was, great story, I was getting on a, a flight on Southwest Airlines out of Phoenix two weeks ago, three weeks ago. And Betsy FaceTimes me.

• 1:09:03Donald Miller?

  Now, you know, when you're getting on Southwest Airlines, you're like bumper to bumper. I mean, there's 27 people touching me. So Betsy FaceTimes me, she goes, I said, "Hi babe, I'm, I'm at the airport." She goes, "Okay, well, I just wanted to give you an update. Emma Lane still hasn't pooped." And everybody is just rolling. I mean, they're just having so much fun with it, like, "Please tell us whether she poops."

• 1:09:25Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow, that's hilarious.

• 1:09:27Donald Miller?

  And, you know, I get off the phone, well, now we've broken ground, right? Now we're, we're all talking. And the gentleman in front of me had his first kid when he was 17 years old, he's now in his 60s.

• 1:09:37Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:09:38Donald Miller?

  17 years old, she was 15. And they are still married. He's in his sixties.

• 1:09:43Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:09:44Donald Miller?

  So the story's out there, right? And I said, well, you know, um, I didn't have my first kid till I was fifty, basically. And I said, there are pros and cons. And he said to me, there are no cons.

• 1:09:54Lewis Howes?

  There are no cons to waiting till you're fifty?

• 1:09:56Donald Miller?

  There are no cons, period. He said, stop it.

• 1:09:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:09:59Donald Miller?

  You know, so that was really a nice thing to say.

• 1:10:01Lewis Howes?

  Cause he had when he was a teenager, you had it when you were fifty, essentially. He said, there are no cons to having a kid.

• 1:10:07Donald Miller?

  You get to be a parent, it's beautiful. There's no cons. There's no downside.

• 1:10:10Lewis Howes?

  That's pretty cool. What do you think will be your greatest lesson of being a father?

• 1:10:17Lewis Howes?

  By the time your daughter is in college, let's say, if she goes to college? What do you think will be the lesson you'll need to learn?

• 1:10:22Donald Miller?

  That's a question Victor Frankl always asks. He says, look, look to the end of the day or the month of the year and try to figure out what you're gonna regret. And then don't do it.

• 1:10:32Lewis Howes?

  Don't do it beforehand, yeah.

• 1:10:33Donald Miller?

  Yeah. I think, um, the lesson that Imalani is teaching me, and that I still have a healthy dose, uh, that I'm in need of, is that life is not about me. Really, at all.

• 1:10:44Lewis Howes?

  You, you need to remind yourself of that, is what you're saying.

• 1:10:48Donald Miller?

  You know, it's really much more of a we story than a me story. You know, in the end.

• 1:10:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:52Donald Miller?

  I really think, I hope that there's a spirit world on the other side of whatever. Someday I wanna write a book called The Faith I Keep. And each chapter will be the same. It'll say, I'm seventy-three percent certain there's an afterlife. I'm point-three percent certain impressing religious people will get you into heaven. I mean, whatever. These will be the chapter titles. Um, but I think that, I hope that there's a spirit world on the other side of what we're experiencing. And I hope in that world, we really understand oneness. You know, that we are, I would have my own identity, but somehow we would be one. I feel like that, when I think about what the broken nature of the world is, to me, that got broken. That I realized this person in India, who's a different color and a different, you know, class system and different country and a different language,

• 1:11:37Donald Miller?

  is, is, we're one. And I need to care for that person as though I would, I were caring for myself.

• 1:11:43Lewis Howes?

  Do you believe there's a spirit world after this?

• 1:11:45Donald Miller?

  I'm sixty-two percent certain there's a spirit world after this.

• 1:11:48Lewis Howes?

  Is there a spirit world within us?

• 1:11:51Donald Miller?

  I will say this. It, it, this is an absolutely magical experience.

• 1:11:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:11:57Donald Miller?

  I mean, what, what is, what we are getting to participate in is mind-blowing. We're just used to it. But it's mind-blowing.

• 1:12:07Donald Miller?

  So the idea that we could be born into this mind-blowing narrative that's happening and the exposition of this whole, you know, the set and the, I'm talking about Earth, you know, suspended in time and space.

• 1:12:19Lewis Howes?

  Infinite universe.

• 1:12:21Donald Miller?

  Yeah, and physicists are already telling us that there are, there is geographical places, it has to do with how fast you're traveling, where time doesn't exist. It's just a physical fact in the universe. There are places where, where time doesn't exist, the black holes and all that. So, it's a trippy world.

• 1:12:36Lewis Howes?

  Trippy.

• 1:12:37Donald Miller?

  So, why would it be any less trippy if when, when I put Lucy down, she goes to a place where time doesn't exist and quote, "waits for me," but she's not inside of time, so she's not waiting at all? That, the laws of physics say that's actually completely and totally possible. That's not any more trippy than what you and I are sitting here doing right now. This is a complete miracle.

• 1:12:58Lewis Howes?

  Than a sperm and an egg coming together and creating life?

• 1:13:01Donald Miller?

  Yeah. Like, you know, who knows?

• 1:13:03Lewis Howes?

  How does a little sperm make a brain, make a heart, like all these things?

• 1:13:06Donald Miller?

  Dude, it's the most, it's the craziest experience when you're in the operating room and Betsy needed to do a C-section because she wasn't, the doctor just wanted to do a C-section for, for good reason. Um, it, it was literally like an alien abduction. I was just like, this life just came out of.

• 1:13:22Lewis Howes?

  Her belly, yeah.

• 1:13:24Donald Miller?

  Yeah, it was the most crazy experience.

• 1:13:26Lewis Howes?

  What, did something change for you when you saw your daughter for the first time?

• 1:13:29Donald Miller?

  Well, you know, they talk about how you just fall completely and madly in love, uh, when you, when you first see your child. Um, I think that happened for me slowly over the first week. Um, but I was too maybe narcissistic because I was just so insecure about whether I was gonna do a good job with this thing. One of the big feelings that I had, and you're the first person, I haven't told Betsy this, but one of the big feelings that I had, uh, was I was afraid that this kid wasn't gonna like me.

• 1:13:59Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 1:14:00Donald Miller?

  You're talking about past trauma.

• 1:14:01Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:14:02Donald Miller?

  Yeah, so, you know, gosh, three days in, when I walked in the room and she sensed I was in the room and the big smile came across her face was one of those healing moments in my life.

• 1:14:12Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, you're like, my child accepts me.

• 1:14:14Donald Miller?

  Now it happens every time, every time, every time I walk in a room and see her, pick her up, a giant smile, it's one of those healing things you could possibly experience.

• 1:14:21Lewis Howes?

  That's gotta be incredible.

• 1:14:22Donald Miller?

  It is totally incredible. It's a gift of God, it's a gift from God, it has to be.

• 1:14:26Lewis Howes?

  What do you think?

• 1:14:27Donald Miller?

  Well, I'm 87% certain it's a gift.

• 1:14:30Lewis Howes?

  What do you think will be the thing you need to heal the most in the next 10 years?

• 1:14:35Donald Miller?

  I would like to continue to accomplish really awesome things because it's fun. And I would like to need less credit. I would like to need less credit. Even, even subconsciously, I would like to need less credit for the things that I get to participate in.

• 1:14:48Lewis Howes?

  Why is it important for us to receive credit? And why is it valuable to need less of it?

• 1:14:55Donald Miller?

  Well, to some degree, it's just as to receive credit appropriately for the things that you do. But isn't it an incredible strength? When you can do something and not even feel emotionally the need. You're just like, that's actually really good for the world. I'm glad that that happened. You know, and I think, you know, as we get older, maybe we, you know, that becomes easier and easier. But I would like, it bugs me. It bugs me that I need credit. I need more credit than I want to need.

• 1:15:24Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:15:24Donald Miller?

  Yeah, it just kind of bothers me. I would like to not be preoccupied with it.

• 1:15:28Lewis Howes?

  Wanting the credit or the validation or the...

• 1:15:30Donald Miller?

  Yeah, I would love to be able to write books and release them and not really care what any Amazon review says.

• 1:15:37Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:15:38Donald Miller?

  I actually don't read Amazon reviews. But I would like to not want to. I would like to, I would like to just love the work. And I actually think I would be a better writer if I, and I do love the work. But I would like to just love the two hours that I get to spend every morning writing. And then whether or not it even gets published matters very little to me. And I think I'm a long way from that.

• 1:15:57Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever wrote with a pen name?

• 1:16:01Donald Miller?

  No, have you? Have you done that, Louis?

• 1:16:03Lewis Howes?

  No, but I mean...

• 1:16:03Donald Miller?

  Is this a secret reveal?

• 1:16:04Lewis Howes?

  No, I'm just saying, but I'm not like a true writer. That's not the thing I do every day.

• 1:16:09Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Lewis Howes?

  But I'm just curious if that's a challenge you'd be open to one day. Even if it's just writing an article just without your name on it and no one knew you wrote it.

• 1:16:18Donald Miller?

  Totally.

• 1:16:19Lewis Howes?

  Or a book that no one knew you wrote it.

• 1:16:21Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:21Lewis Howes?

  And you couldn't do interviews about it. You just had to release it and just like, oh, I saw this cool book. I don't know who wrote it, but I thought it was pretty cool.

• 1:16:29Donald Miller?

  I, yeah, I've actually had the secret thought that it would be really fun to write like religious romance novels that are just so cheesy and so sultry. But they would, you would try to sell to that market, because you know that all these ladies are thinking about that.

• 1:16:42Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah. Fifty Shades of Grey, but the religious.

• 1:16:45Donald Miller?

  But the religious version is right.

• 1:16:47Lewis Howes?

  I like this.

• 1:16:49Donald Miller?

  Yeah, so, no, I, um, I think that would be hilarious and fun, but that would have to be in her pen name.

• 1:16:54Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. You could get zero credit. You just know people are enjoying it out in the world and you could just, that's it.

• 1:17:00Donald Miller?

  Yeah, but I wonder if, if like they were so popular, I would break down, "It's me, it's me." But I, I don't know, who knows? No, I'm not gonna do that.

• 1:17:08Donald Miller?

  It's not one of my three stories.

• 1:17:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:09Donald Miller?

  I got two Lucy's left.

• 1:17:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly. But it'd be cool to do some challenge, you know, at some point in the next 10 years, where, whether it's an article, or a series, or a book, or something, where you didn't put your name on it.

• 1:17:20Donald Miller?

  Yeah, I like that challenge. You're really good at taking somebody else and being their cheerleader and propping them up.

• 1:17:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I made a conscious decision, because I think I had part of that in my twenties, or not part of that, a lot of that, where I wanted to be validated. And then when I hit 30, something changed. I went to a, you know, something similar like onsite, I went to a, my own emotional intelligence training workshop for many weekends over four months, that put me through the craziest life experiences and journeys to help me reflect on every part of my life.

• 1:17:58Lewis Howes?

  It was kind of like a social experiment on healing in relationships and parenthood and all these different things. And, um, I decided, I, I started a school of greatness right around that time. And I remember thinking, I want to do more good in the world, and I want to interview my smart friends that I have, right? And I would ask a few friends about like, okay, I'm thinking of doing a podcast, this was when no one knew what a podcast was. This was nine years ago, it'll be a nine year anniversary coming up this month.

• 1:18:28Donald Miller?

  You were in, you were early adopter, to say the least.

• 1:18:31Lewis Howes?

  People, you had to tell people, okay.

• 1:18:34Donald Miller?

  Yeah, I would, yeah, nine years ago, I wouldn't know.

• 1:18:35Lewis Howes?

  You have to go download this thing, it was on iTunes back then, like people didn't even know how to play them. You know, it was very hard.

• 1:18:43Lewis Howes?

  Anyways, I remember asking people, you know, what do you think I should call the name of the podcast? And they're like, why don't you just call it the Lewis Howes Show or this and this? And I go, I think this is an opportunity for me to not make it about me. Not that I didn't say anything wrong, calling your show your name, I think it's smart.

• 1:19:00Donald Miller?

  But you wanted it to be bigger than you and you wanted it to outlive you.

• 1:19:02Lewis Howes?

  I wanted it to be bigger than me. And I, and I, and maybe it wasn't smart, personal branding wise, but I was like, I don't want this to be about me. I want it to be about the people that are coming on who are servicing the world in a big way and me as a facilitator. But it doesn't need to be my show. It's the show of the most brilliant or the most, you know, interesting people in the world that I can get on and interview and ask them those questions. So I decided, and the school of greatness was, um, all the things I wish I would have learned in school, because school was extremely difficult for me. Being in the special needs classes, my entire.

• 1:19:37Donald Miller?

  Now, why were you in special needs classes? Is this part of the dyslexia and all that?

• 1:19:42Lewis Howes?

  And I was, and then when I went to middle school, they started, they started ranking you on your grade card.

• 1:19:48Donald Miller?

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:19:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, this was.

• 1:19:51Donald Miller?

  That's terrible.

• 1:19:52Lewis Howes?

  So they would rank you based on your class members, like where you were ranking in the class.

• 1:19:57Donald Miller?

  And so middle school is the worst possible time.

• 1:19:59Lewis Howes?

  So I remember I was always in the bottom four. And so I would just see this confirmation of you're not enough. Like you're stupid, you're, you know, you're not intelligent, you're not smart enough as everyone else around you. And being in the special needs classes, it took me seven years to finish college. Like all these different things just confirmed, you know, you're not smart enough was what is the story that I told myself. Until I realized, wow, I'm actually really wise and I have skills in other areas of life that aren't from reading a book and testing well. You know, I'm doing homework well. Like I wasn't good at that structure. And I wish they would have taught me how to approach, you know, relationships. I wish they taught me how to heal. I wish they taught me how to deal with failure.

• 1:20:41Donald Miller?

  How to be creative.

• 1:20:41Lewis Howes?

  How to be creative, how to make money, like all these different things. And I was like, that's what I, I learned some of that stuff through sports. And then I learned a lot of it from just interviewing mentors after school. I was like, I wish the world knew this. Let me call, I'm gonna call it the school of greatness.

• 1:20:57Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:57Lewis Howes?

  And I, and I wanted it to be about everyone else, not about me. And so that's kind of the journey there.

• 1:21:03Donald Miller?

  You know, some people will call that humility. I call it health.

• 1:21:05Lewis Howes?

  Health.

• 1:21:06Donald Miller?

  Yeah. Uh, it's just an understanding of where you fit in the world.

• 1:21:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:12Donald Miller?

  And it's, it's, it's this two things simultaneously. I can have a really big impact and I'm not the most important thing. I don't have to be the center of attention.

• 1:21:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:21:23Donald Miller?

  And we see, you've seen it, you've seen it a lot of times. People who build communities in order to be the center of attention. And you see how they implode.

• 1:21:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:21:32Donald Miller?

  You know, I would say to some degree, hopefully he's much healthier now. Adam Newman did that with WeWork.

• 1:21:36Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:21:37Donald Miller?

  And you saw it implode, but really what he's building this huge thing because he had a deficiency in community and feeling loved. And you drove, drove, drove, drove. But when you drive out of your wounds, the whole thing breaks apart.

• 1:21:49Lewis Howes?

  What should we be driving out of instead?

• 1:21:51Donald Miller?

  Driving out of a desire to be, have a mutually beneficial relationship with the world.

• 1:21:56Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:56Donald Miller?

  Right? I wanna enjoy this and I'm not gonna, I talk in this book about how important it is to have some sort of selfish motivation involved in your objective. Otherwise you're a liar, right? Because we only do things that benefit us. But then when you realize that's empty, you, things start becoming mutually beneficial.

• 1:22:16Lewis Howes?

  Right, the win win.

• 1:22:17Donald Miller?

  Yeah, you know, one of my favorite movies ever, and we're just through the season where it came on is It's a Wonderful Life.

• 1:22:22Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:23Donald Miller?

  And if you look at that movie, the lead character of course is brought around by an angel to be shown what the world would look like if he were never born. You know, and what you realize in that movie as you watch his life is that he's very disrespectful to his wife. He's, he's very, uh, short tempered with his kids. He, uh, gets frustrated with the sort of people that he lends money to. He's normal. And he changes the whole world and he makes it a better place. I think we're a little hard on ourselves. When we say we've got to be perfect or we've got to be saints in order to change the world. You can be totally normal and get irritated with your kids and change the world. You know, watch It's a Wonderful Life. He's not a perfect guy.

• 1:23:05Lewis Howes?

  Right. I think it was Wayne Dyer. Who talked about how so many of the people that ended up changing the world were. Schoolteachers were.

• 1:23:14Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:15Lewis Howes?

  Janitor or something like that where it's like they weren't. Presidents out doing something. They were ordinary people like Wayne Dyer was a teacher for many years and he was like.

• 1:23:23Donald Miller?

  I didn't know that. I knew he was.

• 1:23:24Lewis Howes?

  I think he was a teacher for like 10 or 20 years and then he was like, and I love. Or he was a therapist. Was he a therapist or a teacher or one of those?

• 1:23:32Donald Miller?

  I would have assumed he was a psychologist.

• 1:23:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think maybe it was a therapist, but it was like. He was explaining in one of his audio books I was listening to that. I think Mother Teresa was just something and. Or she was a nun, I guess, but then. Gandhi, I think was a teacher, something like that. It was like these people that go off and do extraordinary things. Don't always start out that way. They kind of have humble jobs and humble like missions and then it just grows and expands. You don't have to have the intention of being the president or being some billionaire CEO to change lives.

• 1:24:02Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:03Lewis Howes?

  So I think that's interesting.

• 1:24:04Donald Miller?

  And each of those people, you know, you know, if you look at like Mahatma Gandhi and you mentioned Mother Teresa. And Dr. King. What a lot of people don't realize about Dr. Dr. King is he always 100% felt like he was in his father's shadow. He always felt. Deficient and his father was actually the big man.

• 1:24:24Lewis Howes?

  The guy.

• 1:24:24Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:25Lewis Howes?

  Leading the church and.

• 1:24:26Donald Miller?

  Yeah. So really what made Dr. King, Dr. King, what made Mother Teresa, Mother Teresa, but made Gandhi, Gandhi was not them. It was the actual mission. That's where they blew up when they realized, well, I've got to, I've got to stop the, what's happening in the civil rights, you know, push back to the civil rights movement. I've got to stop that what's happening in the British. Colonialism is taking place in India. I've got to stop what's happening on the streets of Calcutta. You know, these are just normal people. Who put themselves into a mission and that's why we all know their name. It's not them. It's that they stepped into a story and the story.

• 1:25:03Donald Miller?

  Transform them into heroic characters.

• 1:25:05Lewis Howes?

  With everything that's happening in the world in the last couple of years, where do you think will be the biggest need over the next decade or two decades in the country, but also in the world? From the social media revolutions that are happening, the pandemic stuff that's happening, the governmental stuff that's happening here and also around the world, what's the biggest need that we will need for heroes to step into?

• 1:25:30Donald Miller?

  We have to de-incentivize tribalism.

• 1:25:32Lewis Howes?

  De-incentivize tribalism, what does that mean?

• 1:25:34Donald Miller?

  Well, if you watch, you know, Fox News or MSNBC, to some degree CNN, really what's happened in the 24-hour news cycle is news stations have chosen a confirmation bias to exploit. So they know Fox News hates Joe Biden, they hate Barack Obama. Let's paint those guys as enemy and really tell these people what they want to hear so that we can sell advertising because you got to get eyeballs and that's what we're going to get. MSNBC did the same thing on the left. So they are literally incentivized to divide the country and make you afraid of people. And until you economically de-incentivize that, and I don't know how you do that, there's no hope.

• 1:26:14Lewis Howes?

  Because what happens when two different media, you know, arms are competing against each other and making the other ones wrong? What happens if they stop doing that?

• 1:26:24Donald Miller?

  They lose ratings. Yeah, and the story sells. Fiction, you know, and the other is out to get you.

• 1:26:31Lewis Howes?

  Gossip and.

• 1:26:32Donald Miller?

  Yeah, and the Democrats are, you know, molesting children in under pizza restaurants. That stuff sells. And people actually believe it.

• 1:26:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:26:41Donald Miller?

  Right? They actually believe it.

• 1:26:43Lewis Howes?

  And. So is this where story hurts us?

• 1:26:46Donald Miller?

  Yeah, 100%. Yeah, the brain has a very difficult time telling the difference between fiction and nonfiction. And so you can you can tell the brain some really absurd stuff that actually just makes no sense, but it's very hard for somebody's brain. Once they hear the story, the story feels really entertaining and really clean. Therefore, it's gotta be true, right? No, that'd be true.

• 1:27:11Lewis Howes?

  It takes probably a long time to make it untrue.

• 1:27:14Donald Miller?

  It takes a long time to unravel it.

• 1:27:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:17Donald Miller?

  Yeah. You know, so what you see in society is the extreme left and the extreme right. They have the clearest narratives. But in reality, narratives aren't actually that clear. You know, Bill Clinton was pretty well-known for saying, "Look, I'm not as great as my fans say I am, I'm not as bad as my enemies say I am, I'm a pretty boring guy."

• 1:27:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:27:37Donald Miller?

  You know, but now you tell that to somebody on the far right, unless you know he's evil.

• 1:27:40Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:41Donald Miller?

  He's not evil, come on, give me a break. You know, and Rush Limbaugh is not evil. You know, he's an opportunist, he's making money.

• 1:27:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:27:49Donald Miller?

  You know, he didn't want anything worse for the world. You know, so I think that once, if we can just, you know, once you understand how story works, you see how it's being used to manipulate the masses. And I think we all need a little bit of a healthy dose of cynicism when it comes to engaging our media right now. We also need to go, you know, one of the things that build the middle class that I want to do, we've already created these flags, they have a bison on them, because the bison almost went extinct, but America did something about it. And so the middle class will go extinct unless America does something about it. So that's why the bison is our trademark.

• 1:28:27Lewis Howes?

  How will it go, what will happen if it goes extinct?

• 1:28:30Donald Miller?

  The middle class is shrinking and shrinking, the poor are getting poorer, the wealthier are getting wealthier, because that's the way our tax code is set up. So, once the middle class shrinks down, you won't have much of a labor force, and the labor force will move to probably Africa, and it will be led by China. So that's what's happening in the world. But unless Republicans and Democrats can actually see eye to eye and get along, so one of the things that we're doing at Build the Middle Class is we're printing blue flags, and we're printing red flags, but it's the exact same flag. So if you're Democrat, fly the red flag, if you're a Republican, fly the blue flag. But what you're saying about flying that flag is I agree with the Republicans on these eight pieces of legislation. We've got to stop fighting, we've got to move forward. You know, I work with a think tank in Washington DC called Stand Together.

• 1:29:14Donald Miller?

  And we're working on some immigration stuff. They actually just bring me in to do some messaging. And so I went in and they explained the situation. They said, Don, there are three pieces of legislation in the House right now. If we pass them, we would have comprehensive immigration reform. We'd be done, no longer an issue. Seventy-six percent of Americans support the three pieces of legislation, whether you're Republican or Democrat. Here's the problem. If a Democrat is in the White House, the Republicans won't pass it. And if the Republicans are in the White House, the Democrats won't pass it because neither side wants to give the other side a win.

• 1:29:47Lewis Howes?

  The ego is crazy, isn't it?

• 1:29:48Donald Miller?

  And this has been happening for forty years. So this has been happening on Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security reform. This has been happening on immigration. It's happening on education reform. It's happening on criminal justice reform. It's happening on clarifying and simplifying the tax code. So you've got two bodies that hate each other so much, they would rather not let the other side win for forty consecutive years than give America what it wants and what it needs. The solutions to our problems are not complicated. They're actually very, very simple. It's just these two egos won't actually sit in the same room and get along with each other.

• 1:30:24Lewis Howes?

  What if one said, hey, you give us this win, we'll give you the other win?

• 1:30:28Donald Miller?

  They try to do that stuff, but they hate each other so much now they won't even meet.

• 1:30:31Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 1:30:32Donald Miller?

  Yeah, I mean, right now, currently, we're in, you know, right at the beginning of 2022. Republicans, Democrats won't get into a room together.

• 1:30:40Lewis Howes?

  You're talking about like in the country or you mean in DC?

• 1:30:43Donald Miller?

  In federal, in DC. That's not happening.

• 1:30:45Lewis Howes?

  Then we'll get into the room?

• 1:30:46Donald Miller?

  No.

• 1:30:47Lewis Howes?

  And just talk it out?

• 1:30:48Donald Miller?

  No. They won't get in the room because they're not incentivized to do so.

• 1:30:52Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:30:53Donald Miller?

  Right?

• 1:30:53Lewis Howes?

  They're incentivized to win and be, yeah.

• 1:30:55Donald Miller?

  Yeah, their base won't, doesn't want them to do that. Their base, they're literally a significant percentage of Americans, you know, fifteen percent, want to send somebody to DC just to hate the other side, rather than send somebody to DC to get work done. That would save us enormous amounts of money and help us compete with China. You know, it's a bad deal. This is my next story that I wanted to add to.

• 1:31:18Lewis Howes?

  What needs to happen in order for that to be disrupted so that we?

• 1:31:21Donald Miller?

  There needs to be a...

• 1:31:22Lewis Howes?

  A different person that comes in?

• 1:31:24Donald Miller?

  There needs to be a platform. As though it's a presidential platform in the middle that both Republicans and Democrats can sign on to. And then that platform needs 30 or 40 million petition signatures and probably hundreds of millions of dollars to run ads to support the people who... And the narrative needs to change. It needs to change to this: if you're an extremist on the left or right and are unwilling to compromise, we don't want you here. If you can't... I think in four years, if you can't pass comprehensive immigration reform or comprehensive tax reform, you're fired. If you paid a landscaper for four years and they ever showed up and mowed your lawn, are you gonna keep paying them?

• 1:32:06Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 1:32:07Donald Miller?

  Why are we paying taxes when these people won't get anything done?

• 1:32:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:32:10Donald Miller?

  It's ridiculous. So, you know, that middle ground needs to be established, and right now it doesn't have a voice, or a flag, or a banner, or a petition, or a white paper, or a book, or any of that.

• 1:32:22Lewis Howes?

  How much worse does it need to get in order for that to potentially happen?

• 1:32:26Donald Miller?

  Yeah, I think we're about two clicks away.

• 1:32:28Lewis Howes?

  Two presidents away, you mean, or two years?

• 1:32:29Donald Miller?

  Uh, two clicks in terms of anger.

• 1:32:31Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:32Donald Miller?

  I think, you know, if Kamala Harris were the next Democratic presidential nominee and Trump came back, you would have, you would have, you know, the company's... The country's either gonna destroy itself, or the country's gonna figure out a different path. Yeah, I think we're really close. We've talked about a lot, Louis.

• 1:32:51Lewis Howes?

  Relationships to heroes and what's happening in the world the next 10 years.

• 1:32:56Donald Miller?

  It's definitely the best interview I've ever done.

• 1:32:58Lewis Howes?

  That's good. That's my attention. That's my attention. Hero on a Mission: A Path to a Meaningful Life is out. People can get this. If they want to have the framework, the stories... I really like the part of writing your eulogy. You've got everything at the end about creating a life plan for a one-year vision, which is something I'm a big fan of doing every year as well, and seeing that consistently. There's so much value in here, and you've been just consistent on creating these frameworks and this mission for so many years that I think everyone needs to get this book, especially if you feel like the last couple of years has been a challenge for you. I want you to get this book because it's gonna give you meaning, it's gonna give you purpose and direction, which I think a lot of people need right now is direction in their own lives.

• 1:33:41Lewis Howes?

  Hero on a Mission: Get it for your friends, get it for your family, get it for yourself. It's gonna really help you in a big way.

• 1:33:50Lewis Howes?

  Where can we follow you? Where can we connect with you the most that you spend the most time online?

• 1:33:54Donald Miller?

  You know, the best place to follow me is actually Donald Miller on Instagram because then you get to see pictures of my baby.

• 1:34:02Lewis Howes?

  There you go.

• 1:34:03Donald Miller?

  And that's, that's the, that's pretty fun.

• 1:34:05Lewis Howes?

  I like that. You have a newsletter too, right? Do you share a lot more?

• 1:34:09Donald Miller?

  We have, we have a podcast called Business Made Simple.

• 1:34:13Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:34:14Donald Miller?

  Yeah. No newsletter, but definitely a podcast called Business Made Simple. And then we released that on Monday. On Thursday, we're starting a new series called Hero on a Mission.

• 1:34:23Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 1:34:23Donald Miller?

  And our first couple of interviews will be Evan McMullin is on a mission to disrupt the two-party system. I'm hopeful to get an interview with Sean Brock, the chef, the James Beard Award winning chef, because he's on a mission to not disrupt the restaurant industry. You would absolutely love Sean Brock. You should interview Sean Brock.

• 1:34:42Lewis Howes?

  Sean Brock.

• 1:34:43Donald Miller?

  Yes, Sean Brock. You should eat his food too.

• 1:34:45Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:34:46Donald Miller?

  You would love Sean Brock.

• 1:34:48Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool.

• 1:34:49Donald Miller?

  He's in Nashville. Come to Nashville, bring your equipment and you can stay at our house.

• 1:34:52Lewis Howes?

  I'll have to come down there for a week when my, my book launches.

• 1:34:54Donald Miller?

  When is your book coming out?

• 1:34:56Lewis Howes?

  End of October, I believe. Yes.

• 1:34:58Donald Miller?

  Of this coming?

• 1:34:59Lewis Howes?

  This year.

• 1:35:00Donald Miller?

  Oh yeah, very good.

• 1:35:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:02Donald Miller?

  Yeah, what's it called? Don't know yet.

• 1:35:04Lewis Howes?

  Working title is The Greatness Mindset.

• 1:35:05Donald Miller?

  Okay.

• 1:35:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. It's the working title, so.

• 1:35:08Donald Miller?

  Well, come to, come to Nashville. Let us handle the whole thing. We'll hook you up with Parnassus Books.

• 1:35:14Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:35:15Donald Miller?

  Which is Ann Patchett's. She was shortlisted for the Pulitzer or the Nobel Prize or whatever. She's got a bookstore in Nashville.

• 1:35:21Lewis Howes?

  So they can route it through there?

• 1:35:22Donald Miller?

  It's a mile. We can literally get buses from, buses from the bookstore straight to the carriage house at Goose Hill and you can do an event there.

• 1:35:30Lewis Howes?

  I'm in.

• 1:35:31Donald Miller?

  And it would be really, really fun.

• 1:35:32Lewis Howes?

  That'd be fun.

• 1:35:33Donald Miller?

  You would, you would love Nashville. Bring your girl.

• 1:35:35Lewis Howes?

  I know. I do like it.

• 1:35:37Donald Miller?

  Actually, the guest house is done in May, so you guys can just stay at the guest house.

• 1:35:39Lewis Howes?

  She's filming in Atlanta, so it's not too far, right?

• 1:35:41Donald Miller?

  It's four hours.

• 1:35:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, maybe we'll drive up there as well.

• 1:35:43Donald Miller?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:44Lewis Howes?

  What's the one skill you're gonna need to master over the next few years to help you accomplish these missions?

• 1:35:50Donald Miller?

  I think I've gotten pretty good at it over the years, but quite honestly, I'm gonna have to start saying no to some really awesome opportunities.

• 1:35:59Lewis Howes?

  You just did this last couple of weeks, this Monday one, right?

• 1:36:03Donald Miller?

  Yeah, I'm gonna have to do a lot more of that.

• 1:36:06Lewis Howes?

  And the more, you know, you accomplish, the more great opportunities are Isn't that the challenge?

• 1:36:12Donald Miller?

  Like this compounds, doesn't it? It just compounds. It is. And that's why reading your eulogy is so important. Cause you don't, you don't get the time back.

• 1:36:21Lewis Howes?

  You don't. BusinessMadeSimple.com, Donald Miller everywhere, Instagram is the main place. Twitter and Facebook as well. Make sure you guys get the book, Here on a Mission, A Path to a Meaningful Life. Before I ask the final two questions, I want to acknowledge you, Donald. Even though you're practicing not getting credit. I want to acknowledge you for your, your, really your vulnerability and your honesty in the things that you want to work on still. And I think saying, you know, I still want to get credit and I still have an ego here and I still like this and wanting to work on those things, I think is really inspiring. So I acknowledge you for being honest about all these things and having the vulnerability. I acknowledge you for having a child at 50 and stepping into this season of your life

• 1:37:06Lewis Howes?

  and seeing the value that'll come from having a child and starting a family at this time. I acknowledge you for healing and constantly being on a healing journey because I think it's hard to create meaningful work in the world if we aren't healing ourselves and on that journey. And I know your three big missions are going to take a healed

• 1:37:26Donald Miller?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:26Lewis Howes?

  husband and father and man, not a hurt man, in kind of taking on those missions. So I really acknowledge you in having a healthy body, mind and soul. You look extremely young. You look extremely healthy and whole. And so I really acknowledge you for the incredible work you've done to overcome all the challenges in your life to get to this point right now. And I'm very excited about this book and your journey and I can't wait to see you in Nashville.

• 1:37:55Lewis Howes?

  This question is called the three truths. So

• 1:37:59Donald Miller?

  I remember this.

• 1:38:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. So imagine it's your last day on earth, many years away and we're getting you to 100. So you've got three Lucy's and for whatever reason, all of your content is gone or it goes with you to the next place and you don't get to have any of your books or written word or this interview, it's, it's not available in the world anymore. For whatever reason, it's gone. Hypothetical, and you get a piece of paper and a pen and you get to write down three lessons that you would share with the world. Three things you know to be true from your life experiences. And this is all we would have from you of your content. What would you say would be those three truths that you would share?

• 1:38:39Donald Miller?

  I would repeat the truths that Viktor Frankl put in his book because I think he's smarter than me. And I would say have a project that engages your attention because it's going to help you love life. Don't do it alone. Bring a community with you. And just know it's going to be hard and that's a good thing. Those are the three truths.

• 1:38:57Lewis Howes?

  Those are beautiful. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:39:02Donald Miller?

  My definition of greatness is that what I hope that happens at my funeral is that people talk more about how I encouraged what they were able to accomplish and less about what I was able to accomplish.

• 1:39:17Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that's good. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.