Pod Insights The School of Greatness Unlock the Power of Sleep: 3 BRAIN HACKS to Transform Your Neurological System About this episode Sleep is powerful. You’ve probably heard this statement a thousand times. It’s all over the books, media, podcasts, videos, everywhere. But many of us still lack a deep understanding of its power and how to use it for our benefit. In today’s episode, 3 guests dive deeper into understanding the amazing human mind and how sleep is critical to operating at 100% mental capacity. We talk about how to unlock its power — particularly during really hectic seasons of life. Andrew Huberman is a neuroscientist at Stanford University. He also runs the Huberman Lab, which studies how the brain functions, how it changes through experiences, and how to repair the brain after injury or disease. David Sinclair is a tenured Professor in the Department of Genetics at the Paul F. Glenn Center for Biology of Aging Research at Harvard Medical School and serves as President of the Academy for Health and Lifespan Research. He is best known for his work on understanding why we age and how to slow its effects. Dr. Matthew Walker earned his degree in neuroscience from Nottingham University, UK, and his Ph. D. in neurophysiology from the Medical Research Council in London. Dr. Walker researches the impact of sleep on human health and disease, and he’s written the international bestseller, Why We Sleep, unlocking the power of sleep and dreams. In this episode you will learnHow inadequate sleep impacts brain function and overall mental health. The ideal amount of sleep necessary for optimal health and well-being. The effects of a poor diet on sleep quality, even when you're getting sufficient sleep, compared to the impact of a good diet on nights of poor sleep. Ways to influence and potentially control the nature of your dreams. Techniques to train your brain for more frequent lucid dreaming experiences. For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1545For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960Listen to the full episodes here:Andrew Huberman – https://link.chtbl.com/1219-podDavid Sinclair – https://link.chtbl.com/1004-guestMatthew Walker – https://link.chtbl.com/1476-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX
Transcript 10,004 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Sleep is the fundamental layer of mental and physical health. If there's one thing that we should all be doing is working toward sleeping long enough and deeply enough. There are a number of risks to not getting enough sleep, but the primary one is a
0:17 Lewis Howes? Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.
0:41 Lewis Howes? Welcome to this special masterclass. We brought some of the top experts in the world to help you unlock the power of your life through this specific theme today. It's going to be powerful, so let's go ahead and dive in.
0:59 Speaker 00 Until you are sleeping long enough and deeply enough, 80% of the nights of your life, you are functioning suboptimally.
1:09 Lewis Howes? And what's the biggest risk then if we're not getting enough sleep?
1:12 Speaker 00 Okay, so there are a number of risks to not getting enough sleep. Deficits in learning, deficits in the immune system, reduction in testosterone and estrogen in both men and women. So disruption of hormones, disruption of gut microbiome, increased cancer risk. There are a bunch of things. The severity of those things depends on a lot of other things too. Prior health, other health conditions, context, age, occupation. You know, if you're not getting enough sleep and you're a high-rise construction worker, it's different than if you're an office worker. So we need to sleep enough. Now, what's enough sleep? This is an interesting question. Enough sleep. Has been argued it's six hours, other people it's seven hours, other people it's eight hours.
1:56 Speaker 00 It's basically waking up without an alarm clock and feeling rested. Insomnia is actually a medical term nowadays. And insomnia is essentially diagnosed as falling asleep during the middle of the day due to lack of sleep at nighttime.
2:15 Lewis Howes? Wow, okay.
2:15 Speaker 00 But many people who are having trouble sleeping at night are not falling asleep during the middle of the day. They're dealing with grogginess or crankiness or other effects of having fragmented sleep.
2:27 Lewis Howes? What are the, what are the main causes of not being able to fall asleep? Is it rumination? Is it traumas that you're holding on to? Is it arguments? Is it self doubt or insecurities? Is it you nap too much? Is it the foods you ate too late? Like, what would you say are the main causes of not being able to fall asleep?
2:47 Speaker 00 All of the above. But the, the primary one is a failure to turn off your thoughts.
2:55 Lewis Howes? Okay.
2:56 Speaker 00 And I think that might provide a good anchor point for us to talk about some protocols. Really, a excellent night's sleep begins in the morning. I talked about this on the previous episode, so I won't go into detail. But everyone should get as much bright light in their eyes, ideally from sunlight first thing in the morning. 10 to 30 minutes outside, depending on how bright it is.
3:19 Speaker 00 Eyeglasses or contact lenses are fine. Don't wear sunglasses if you can do it safely. If you wake up before the sun rises, turn on bright lights, then go outside once the sun rises. If you have no access to sunlight, use a daytime simulator or similar, like a ring light and get that light in your eyes.
3:34 Lewis Howes? Okay.
3:34 Speaker 00 So that's all of that in a compact form.
3:38 Speaker 00 Caffeine, you can inhibit falling asleep with caffeine. You have to figure out when your threshold is for me. I can drink caffeine up until about three, even four o'clock in the afternoon and sleep like a baby.
3:48 Lewis Howes? And still sleep well.
3:49 Speaker 00 Yes, as Matt Walker, our good friend Matt Walker would say that my sleep isn't as good as it would be had I cut caffeine out earlier.
3:56 Lewis Howes? By like 11 or 12, yeah, AM.
3:58 Speaker 00 Right, and, and I, I want to acknowledge, you know, Matt is the Michael Jordan of sleep science, and so I'm not gonna.
4:04 Lewis Howes? You're the LeBron James.
4:06 Speaker 00 Well, no, no, and in fairness, thank you for the compliment, but, but no, I'm not.
4:13 Speaker 00 I know a lot of the science and the protocols, but that's Matt's wheelhouse. And so if he says something, it's true. And if I say something and our opinions conflict, it's likely to be something that the data are still emerging. Or in that case, default to Matt being correct. Because I, just out of due respect for his expertise. So caffeine, you know, for some people, they can have a two o'clock espresso, 2pm espresso, some people it's 4pm. Some people can drink caffeine at 8pm and fall asleep. But there, I would say it's problematic because you're disrupting the architecture of sleep and the brainwaves associated with sleep, the chemicals and so forth. So get that morning light.
4:55 Speaker 00 Cut your caffeine off at the time that allows you to fall asleep. That morning light also sets the timer on your melatonin rhythm. So you have this gland in your brain called the pineal gland. That pineal is the source of melatonin. Melatonin makes you sleepy, but it does not keep you asleep.
5:10 Lewis Howes? Okay.
5:12 Speaker 00 Melatonin starts to rise in the late evening and continues into the night and then eventually tapers off. This is naturally occurring melatonin release, not supplemented melatonin release. The fastest way to slam melatonin to the pavement and eliminate it in your system is to look at bright light for, I hate to tell you this, even a few seconds. So.
5:35 Lewis Howes? You mean at night?
5:36 Speaker 00 At night is typically when melatonin rises. It's when it's released in the bloodstream and when it has this effect of making us sleepy. It does a number of other things.
5:44 Lewis Howes? You want more melatonin at night, is that right?
5:46 Speaker 00 You do. And if you wake up in the middle of the night or it's eight o'clock and you decide that you want to go to bed at nine or it's nine o'clock, you want to go to bed at 10, and you go into the bathroom and you flip on the bright lights, your melatonin levels just got crushed down to zero.
5:58 Lewis Howes? Having lights on is the worst thing you can do.
6:01 Speaker 00 Yes, and it doesn't matter if it's blue light, red light, purple light, green light. Bright lights inhibit melatonin.
6:08 Speaker 00 Very acutely. And therefore you want to avoid exposure to bright lights at night if your goal is to be asleep. So the simple rule that governs all this stuff is when you want to be alert, get bright light in your eyes, ideally from sunlight. So that's true in the morning and throughout the day. And when you want to be sleepy or asleep, avoid bright light in your eyes. Now, many home environments don't allow you to have zero lights. And that's not actually necessary. You can just dim the lights in the evening. Ideally, you also avoid overhead lights because the neurons in the eye that trigger this melatonin suppression and so forth, they reside in an area of the eye that views upper visual space. So you could have desk lamps or
6:51 Speaker 00 and just dim those down. If you're going to work on a screen, dim it way down. Will blue blockers help? Yes, but if the light is bright enough, they
7:00 Lewis Howes? It's still gonna go through.
7:01 Speaker 00 You're still gonna inhibit melatonin release.
7:02 Lewis Howes? So how bad is watching TV at night?
7:04 Speaker 00 If the TV isn't too bright and
7:07 Lewis Howes? If it's farther away.
7:08 Speaker 00 Farther away. Yeah, and you're and maybe you wear blue blockers.
7:11 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
7:12 Speaker 00 And or or I mean, some people are go take this to the extreme. They wear sunglasses. I think that's a little extreme. Now candlelight and moonlight, surprisingly, doesn't seem to block melatonin. Now, maybe a really bright moonlit night, full moon. Can you know, the lunacy associated with the full moon might actually be due to a suppression of melatonin and an increase in in alertness. So those are the the things as it relates to light.
7:37 Lewis Howes? Yes.
7:38 Speaker 00 Then there's this issue of people who have trouble staying asleep. So they can fall asleep, fine. But they wake up at two or three in the morning. I happen to do this. If I go to bed around 10:30, I tend to wake up around three and I use the restroom. Yeah, I tend to drink a lot of fluids and I have to use the restroom. This was true at every age. This is not just some aging related thing. That's fine. I just keep the lights dim.
8:01 Lewis Howes? Right.
8:02 Speaker 00 And you use the bathroom and then you go back to sleep.
8:03 Lewis Howes? Fall back asleep.
8:04 Speaker 00 Very normal, very healthy. One of the best things I ever did for my sleep was to Keep my phone out of the room so that when I wake up at three in the morning, I just didn't start scrolling the newspapers is typically what I'm doing online. Gotcha. And then you're just waking up your brain, not just by the light, but by the content and you know. You're activating it again as opposed to going back to sleep. Exactly. And sometimes there's a comment and they're like, why is it, you know, your thinking is not very good in the middle of the night. The other thing is you want to keep the room cool. So in order to fall asleep, your body has to undergo a drop of in temperature of one to three degrees. There are a couple of ways to accomplish this. One is keeping the room cool. The other is to, um, and that's ideal actually, because you can put a, a, a hand or a, or a foot out.
8:47 Speaker 00 We actually lose a lot of our heat through what's called our glabrous skin. So the palms of our hands, the bottoms of the feet. I always put my feet out of the sheets and just let them feel the cool air. That's right. And that's a great way to cool off your core body temperature. You're probably doing that unconsciously in your sleep as well. If the room were too warm, the only way for you to cool off would be for you to put your hand in a bucket of cold water. And generally people don't have that accessible. And then you're gonna go pee if you're doing that too. Right, exactly. And then of course, there are all these products nowadays of, you know, things that cover, yeah, that cover, that cool the, the bed. I'm supposed to try one of these soon. I haven't tried one yet. I tend to just keep the room cool. Cool, yeah. And. What do you keep it at? I keep it around sixty seven, sixty five? Uh, that's a little cooler than what I do. I put it at about sixty seven, sixty eight. Okay.
9:32 Speaker 00 Um, but I tend to wake up hot in the middle of the night like, ah, throw the comfort off, um, and go put some cold water on my face.
9:41 Speaker 00 So don't obsess over waking up too much. And if you do, try and stay away from screens. Or if, um, you know, some people will read a book, dim the light again. Yeah. Uh, and then falling back asleep. Some people are waking up at two or three because they are going to bed too late. Their melatonin has run out. So imagine that you're that you're naturally somebody who should go to bed early around nine. But we all have this ability to push forward and stay awake if we have to. Much easier to stay awake than to force yourself to go to sleep. Yes. Very hard to force yourself to go to sleep. So let's say your system, you start releasing melatonin around nine P M.
10:22 Speaker 00 But you stay up until eleven. Then you get into bed, you fall asleep around eleven thirty and at three in the morning, you suddenly wake up. Well, that's because your melatonin tapered off and there's a wakefulness that's occurring. And so ideally, you would start going to bed earlier. Now, there's a lot of discussion out there about so-called chronotypes. So night owls, morning people, people that follow a more typical schedule. Typical would be going to sleep somewhere between ten thirty and eleven thirty, waking up somewhere between six thirty and eight. Then there are the people that like to go to bed at two A M., sleep till ten. And then there are people that like to go to bed at eight and wake up at four. Mm hmm. Huge variation out there. It tends to change across the lifetime. Yeah, your season of life for years.
11:05 Speaker 00 That's right. And adolescents and teenagers tend to stay up later and wants to sleep in. And there's actually some evidence that they can learn better if they are allowed to to use that schedule, but most schools won't adhere to that schedule. You gotta wake up at six and go to school at eight or whatever, yeah. Once you enter adult life, you're generally somebody who's gonna have to learn how to go to bed early and wake up early, or at least wake up early. Now, naps, you should feel comfortable, the data say, naps, you should feel comfortable napping for ninety minutes or less. At any point throughout the day, as long as it doesn't interfere with your nighttime sleep. So some people like me, I love naps, but it doesn't interfere with my nighttime sleep. It doesn't. Does not. So you can take a sixty minute nap? Generally, twenty to forty five minutes.
11:48 Speaker 00 And then you you fully fall asleep or you're kind of like awake and just resting? I can fall asleep anywhere, anytime. In like a minute? I can fall asleep at a gun range, yeah. It's um. What? It's in. Can we sleep sitting up too like this? Oh, yeah. Plane, anywhere. That's a gift. It is, although it could reflect that I'm pushing my system a little too hard. Oh. But it is useful at times. Incredible. It is useful. Sleep right on a plane or? Anywhere, leaning against a. Oh, my gosh. In a subway station and anywhere. If I need sleep, I'm going down. That's incredible. Yeah. So, the other thing is that during sleep, a number of things happen and we can talk about slow wave sleep and REM sleep, but one of the most important physiological functions
12:32 Speaker 00 of sleep is to clear out some of the cellular debris that accumulates throughout the day. The cellular debris creates cognitive deficits. It actually may be related to the aggregation of proteins and things that relate to dementia and Alzheimer's. It's the so-called glymphatic system. The lymphatic system is a system of moving through immune cells and clearing out of debris from the body. The glymphatic system is a kind of an equivalent system that exists in the brain that involves so-called glial cells, which are support cells, but also do many things actively. They're not just doing support. The glymphatic system is like a washout of the brain's debris.
13:14 Speaker 00 And that system seems to function best when feet are slightly elevated above the brain. There's some interesting data from University of South Carolina coming out now that show that if you can get your ankles elevated a little bit higher than your chin, that's great. When you're sleeping? While you're sleeping. What's it do for you? It increases the glymphatic clearance. And there are some data that it can improve function of the brain. The studies that are happening now that I'm aware of, I'm in touch with that group, are mainly geared towards people that have had head injuries. So concussion and TBI of various kinds, but they also are seeing interesting effects in typical folks that don't have any traumatic brain injury. So I put a pillow underneath my ankles when I fall asleep.
13:58 Speaker 00 And to get a little bit of that elevation. And then during the day, if ever you can't get a nap, or you are going to get a nap, put your ankles up on the couch and lie down on the floor. That that itself can get some of the clearance of the glymphatic system.
14:11 Lewis Howes? And that helps you sleep better? It helps you just clean out the system?
14:14 Speaker 00 It helps your brain function better when you wake up from sleep.
14:17 Lewis Howes? Interesting.
14:18 Speaker 00 That's what the data are starting to show. You know, some of the things I described, like the light viewing, is baked into the neuroscience literature. Hundreds of papers, published papers. Some of the things like the glymphatic system is kind of cutting edge. It's on the way. But because the safety margins of raising your ankles are so large, I mean, there's nothing dangerous about that.
14:38 Lewis Howes? Sure. How long do you need to do it for to get the benefits?
14:42 Speaker 00 Oh, I think these are immediate benefits.
14:44 Lewis Howes? Two minutes or 10 minutes?
14:45 Speaker 00 Oh, no, you're doing this the whole night that you're asleep. Your ankles are elevated. If you wake up and you happen to kick the pillow out, it's not the end of the world. But the idea is that you don't want to be sleeping with your head above your ankles either. There is some evidence that when people travel on planes and they're sleeping in chairs, that that's not equivalent to the kind of sleep they'd get when they're lying flat.
15:02 Lewis Howes? Interesting.
15:03 Speaker 00 Independent of all the other things that are happening. And we know this because there are great sleep labs at Stanford, School of Medicine, at UPenn, back east and elsewhere, where people actually go into a clinic and sleep either upright or at different angles. And they're looking at all this at the level of data.
15:20 Lewis Howes? Okay, so here's one for you. What's the best position to sleep? On your back, on your side, on your stomach?
15:29 Speaker 00 Ah, great question. And it really, truly depends. And it probably depends on how hot you run. So I tend to run really warm. A lot of the cooling of the body occurs from the palms and bottoms of the feet, but also from the upper back and scapulae, because we accumulate what's called brown fat there. It's not the blubbery fat that's under the skin. It's like a furnace. Actually, you can increase the density of brown fat by going into cold water repeatedly for, you know, one to three minutes several times each week. It means your furnace actually burns hotter. It allows you to be in cold temperatures more comfortably. Some really beautiful data just published on this. So I don't like to sleep on my back because I start heating up.
16:07 Lewis Howes? Start sweating.
16:08 Speaker 00 That's right. So I tend to sleep on my side. I sleep in that, what is that? It's like soldier position.
16:14 Lewis Howes? Yeah, yeah.
16:14 Speaker 00 But then again, there are some people that have shoulder issues and then they can't do that. I'm relatively flexible through my shoulders, not super flexible, so I can do that. It really depends. Now, of course, if you're sleeping on your stomach, how do you elevate your ankles? You know, this starts becoming a little bit, you know, we are not just science experiments. And so you have to, you have to assume that you're not going to get everything exactly right. But keeping the room cool, keeping the cool being under a warm enough blanket, but then extending a hand or an ankle out so that you could cool off during the middle of the night. That's going to be good. Keep the room dark, although complete pitch black doesn't seem to be as good as having a little bit of light somewhere in the room. But you don't want a bright blue light or red light anywhere in the room.
16:58 Speaker 00 That's going to wake you up. Some people like me have very thin eyelids, exceedingly thin eyelids. Some people have very thick eyelids. So some people are more bothered by a light in the room than others. It really varies. So you have to just tune things to your particular environment.
17:11 Lewis Howes? I'm curious about the neuroscience before you go to sleep. How do we set our minds up to, you were saying before about a lot of people, it's hard for them to sleep because they can't shut their mind off.
17:23 Speaker 00 Right.
17:24 Lewis Howes? Is there something we should be thinking before we shut it off to set our sleep up for success mentally? And then to really build into the next day where we wake up feeling like clear minded and without this brain fog, where we have more motivation, where we have more, you know, energy and excitement towards the next day and then doing that in a pattern every night. Is there any science around that? Is it like listening to a hypnosis?
17:50 Speaker 00 That could be very helpful.
17:51 Lewis Howes? Which will help you clean, clean out whatever is going on through the day and get clear and ready for the next day, but also fall asleep so you're not thinking about it. You know, is there anything that can help you have better dreams so that you sleep better? Like, what have you found there in the neuroscience?
18:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, so the, I'm so glad you asked this question. There's some really interesting data from a guy named Chuck Charles Zeissler, who is at Harvard Med, sent beautiful studies on sleep in humans for many decades, and a really fantastic physician and researcher. And they observed something interesting, which is that about 90 minutes or so before your natural bedtime, there's a spike in alertness, planning, and almost anxiety that all people undergo, and it's a normal, healthy pattern. The idea, and it's a just-so story, because we don't really know. I, nor Chuck Zeissler, nor anyone else was consulted at the design phase, as we say.
18:47 Speaker 00 But we assume this came about because prior to going to sleep, we need to shore up everything for safety. We need to, you know, lock things down, make sure everything is in its place, because we are very vulnerable in sleep. Nowadays, this would might manifest as, you know, you're, you need to go to bed at 10:30 because you have to get up at 6, etc. And then, right around 8:30 or 9, you start finding yourself running around doing various things. Many people worry about that, and they think, oh, I'm really stressed because I actually need to go to sleep, and here I am wide awake. It tends to subside very quickly. So, just the knowledge that that's a normal, healthy spike in alertness and activity, I think can help a number of people. I'm gonna make sure I mention that.
19:27 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
19:27 Speaker 00 The other thing is preparing the mind, as you said, turning thoughts off. Turning thoughts off is a skill. We've talked before, gosh, almost a year or more now, ago, about yoga nidra.
19:39 Lewis Howes? Yes.
19:40 Speaker 00 Which is, there are many, many yoga nidra scripts available on YouTube, free of cost. The ones I particularly like are the ones by Kamini Desai. K.A.M.I.N.I.D.E.S.A.I. Kamini Desai. I just really like her voice. I don't know Kamini, never met her. These are free scripts. They're yoga nidra scripts that last about 20 minutes. They involve some breathing, some meditation-type stuff. But they teach you to turn your thoughts off, which is really wonderful. Because a lot of people, they just get stuck in this rumination. Now, is there an ideal protocol prior to sleep?
20:20 Speaker 00 It depends because some people find they have their greatest clarity after the kids are asleep and they're sitting there. So I wouldn't say don't work or do work. You know, you do want to avoid strong stimuli before sleep. So do you really want to watch, uh, you know, politically charged or a violent movie right before sleep? Well, that depends on how triggered you tend to be by politics or violence. Some people aren't triggered, other people are.
20:46 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
20:46 Speaker 00 Uh, but you know, that aside, you, you don't want to go to bed either too hungry or too full because that can inhibit your sleep. So for most people, that's going to be finishing your last bite of food about two hours before bedtime.
21:04 Speaker 03 We used to think that aging was, was a one-way street. You couldn't do anything about it. We now know from studying twins that eighty percent of your health in old age is up to you. How you live your life.
21:17 Lewis Howes? Right. Your community, your positivity, your thinking, your food, the sleep you have, like all those things, right?
21:23 Speaker 03 Yeah. And the reason that they work, we've discovered is because they turn on the longevity genes.
21:27 Lewis Howes? Oh.
21:28 Speaker 03 That's the breakthrough.
21:29 Lewis Howes? Okay.
21:30 Speaker 03 So now we're artificially tweaking these longevity genes genetically or with supplements or hopefully medicine soon.
21:37 Lewis Howes? Gotcha. But you could do it in more natural, organic ways is what I'm hearing.
21:40 Speaker 03 Well, right now, that's what we've got. And even if you just do the five obvious things, things like skip meals and don't smoke and exercise, that'll get you an extra fourteen years on average.
21:51 Lewis Howes? Really?
21:51 Speaker 03 It's that big. That's not even using high tech.
21:54 Lewis Howes? That's just, there's no technology, just like living a good life.
21:57 Speaker 03 Right.
21:58 Lewis Howes? So what are the main things to turning on the longevity that anyone can do without technology, without money, you know, science?
22:06 Speaker 03 Yeah. Well, okay. So we, we've, first of all, don't smoke.
22:10 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
22:10 Speaker 03 That'll damage your DNA. That'll accelerate the aging process.
22:13 Lewis Howes? Does that include like e-cigarettes and all these other?
22:18 Lewis Howes? Vaping, does that also?
22:20 Speaker 03 Well, I'm a big advocate for putting nothing artificial in your body, including vaping.
22:27 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
22:28 Speaker 03 My mother died from lung cancer, so I'm pretty militant about it.
22:31 Lewis Howes? Wow.
22:32 Speaker 03 I don't think vaping is as bad in terms of the number of chemicals getting into your body.
22:36 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
22:36 Speaker 03 But we've seen recently, it's probably not healthy anyway.
22:39 Lewis Howes? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so no smoking, that's one.
22:42 Speaker 03 That's one. Next one is, don't eat so much, eat less often. So not malnutrition, of course. You don't want to get too thin, but this three meals a day plus snacks is ridiculous.
22:54 Lewis Howes? It's been in my life.
22:57 Lewis Howes? I need to get rid of that.
22:58 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, you're also working out, but someone like me who's not an athlete.
23:02 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
23:02 Speaker 03 The most exercise I do during the day typically is typing.
23:07 Speaker 03 Three meals a day is too much. Actually, one meal is enough for someone like me.
23:10 Lewis Howes? Wow.
23:10 Speaker 03 Yeah, I'm now fifty, so my metabolism is way down.
23:13 Lewis Howes? You look like you're thirty-seven.
23:14 Speaker 03 Oh, thanks.
23:16 Lewis Howes? It's great, man. You might need glasses. You're like a hundred, and you're looking thirty-seven. You've already reversed the aging.
23:21 Speaker 03 Well, I'm glad I don't look eighty, because that would really be bad for my message.
23:27 Lewis Howes? Okay, so we got no smoking, eating less.
23:31 Speaker 03 Yeah. Next one would be the obvious, high intensity interval training. Lose your breath once in a while.
23:38 Lewis Howes? Lose your breath, what do you mean? Just by like working out, like?
23:41 Speaker 03 Yeah, become hypoxic. Tell your body that you're being chased by a saber-toothed tiger or something like that. The reason all of this stuff works in terms of the diet and exercise, it's not that your blood flows more or that being hungry is just healthy for the body. It's actually that your longevity genes get turned on by these things. And why does that happen? Why does it happen in humans, in mice, even in yeast cells for bread and beer? The reason is that the body senses adversity and says, crap. We gotta fight back. We might die next week without food and we, you know, we're running away from tigers and lions. That's what this survival network, this longevity gene.
24:22 Lewis Howes? So it turns it on when it feels like it's in survival mode?
24:25 Speaker 03 That's it. We wanna be in survival mode and we spend our whole lives trying to reduce our adversity.
24:33 Lewis Howes? Right, being comfortable.
24:34 Speaker 03 Right. Don't be hungry, don't be puffed, don't walk, you know, valet your car.
24:40 Lewis Howes? Right.
24:41 Speaker 03 Roll your suitcase, don't carry it, for goodness sakes. We've done the worst. No wonder we're getting sick and sick.
24:48 Lewis Howes? We're in a world of convenience.
24:49 Speaker 03 Right, and it's the worst thing we could do.
24:51 Lewis Howes? Really?
24:51 Speaker 03 For our bodies in terms of longevity. So those three things.
24:55 Lewis Howes? Okay.
24:55 Speaker 03 Uh, the other two, um, uh, let's see, what else is there? Oh, the type of food you eat is important. Uh, there's a big debate, of course.
25:05 Lewis Howes? They say like plant bases could extend the telomeres, right? If you're eating leafy greens, that's what I've heard, but.
25:11 Speaker 03 Right, well, among other things, it's also going to have a couple of really important types of molecules. One are the mono unsaturated fats, fatty acids. You get that from olive oil and avocados. Those are great. And we've just learned that that's a really important trigger for a certain longevity.
25:30 Lewis Howes? Olive oil.
25:31 Speaker 03 Yeah.
25:31 Lewis Howes? I think when I had Gundry on, he was like, I drink a cup of olive oil a day or something like teaspoons of olive oil. He's just eating it. He's like, I'm trying to get as much in as I can, putting it on everything, so.
25:44 Speaker 03 Well, let's get back to that because there's a new discovery as of a week ago that says we think we understand how that works. But in olive oil, there's also what are called, the other important component of a plant-based diet are polyphenols, which are the molecules that plants make when they're under adversity, when they're stressed. And I believe that we've evolved to sense when our food is running out. So we get that signal when our plants are stressed. So you don't want to eat plants that are like this white,
26:13 Lewis Howes? Withered?
26:13 Speaker 03 White liquid lettuce you can buy, Californian lettuce.
26:16 Lewis Howes? Right, right.
26:16 Speaker 03 You want these colored vegetables that have been a little bit stressed, a little bit dried out. Wine is a perfect example. It's full of polyphenols, one called resveratrol that we've worked on for twenty years. And it activates these longevity pathways really well.
26:30 Lewis Howes? Wow.
26:30 Speaker 03 So stress your food, organic.
26:33 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
26:33 Speaker 03 Um, I am for a plant-based diet, but I do eat meat occasionally. It tastes pretty good, but um, but you know, it's very clear, Dan Buettner is right, where you go to the longest-lived places in the world.
26:44 Lewis Howes? The blue zones, right?
26:45 Speaker 03 Sardinia, right? The Okinawa Island in Japan, they're not eating all meat. Um, and actually, we know that if you eat a lot of meat, you shut down some of these longevity pathways.
26:56 Lewis Howes? Really?
26:56 Speaker 03 Yeah. So you actually, you might look good and grow muscle, and that's great when you're young. You want to find a mate, you want to look good, you want to feel good. But in the long run, I don't think that's healthy, healthy.
27:06 Lewis Howes? Really? So cutting down less and less meat, at least, having more plants is the way to go?
27:12 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's, that's what I've done. I was on an Okinawa diet in my twenties and thirties.
27:16 Lewis Howes? Which is what? Just rice and leaves and?
27:19 Speaker 03 It's a bitter rice. You've got to watch out for white rice because it'll spike your sugar.
27:23 Lewis Howes? Yeah, it's a lot.
27:23 Speaker 03 But it's a, it's a lot of tofu, miso soup, uh, green leafy vegetables, dark greens for these phytochemicals. Uh, and then what else was there? There was a bit of fish.
27:34 Lewis Howes? Okay.
27:34 Speaker 03 Yeah. But, but also what's important is not a lot of food. And these days, I'm stopping eating when I'm about sixty, seventy percent full. And I'm trying to
27:43 Lewis Howes? I just never feel full. Until I'm like eating so much and then I'm like, okay, I'm full.
27:48 Speaker 03 Well, you're a young, active, hungry man.
27:50 Lewis Howes? Well, here's one of the things. I think one, when you eat slower, you start to get fuller, you start to feel it. And I've, I'm the youngest of four, and so as a kid, we didn't have a lot of money growing up in a small town in Ohio, and there wasn't that much food. So I learned to like grab and just shove it in my mouth. And that became a habit that I've kind of stuck with. And I'm not starving anymore. Like the food's available at any time. I can afford it. And I have it all the time. But I think it's reconditioning my mind or a habit or a routine of like, and I'm not scarfing my face down right now, but you know, it's that mindset of What if I'm gonna get hungry?
28:26 Speaker 03 For sure. Uh, we all suffer from that. Well, not all of us, but those of us who grew up in regular families, we were told to finish our meals.
28:32 Lewis Howes? Right. Don't leave anything on the plate. There's hungry kids everywhere.
28:35 Speaker 03 Fucking sisters, right? They're stealing your food. Uh, my wife grew up um in a very poor family. Um, and uh, even when she was a student, she could barely afford food. She would scrounge and buy potatoes. And at the dinner table, she'll kill me, kill me for this, but uh, she will eat like it's gonna all go away tomorrow. But I have to, I have to remind her and everybody, everyone should know this, there's always gonna be another meal. There will be another meal. Don't worry. Uh, but we're conditioned to eat food when it's in front of us.
29:07 Lewis Howes? I think it's a mental conditioning and it's also like you've, either your body's tricking you or it's your brain or it's your gut or something is tricking you like, I'm still hungry. Even though you've had two thousand calories in ten minutes, you're still like, oh, there's food. It's like turning something on. You're like, I wanna eat that. I don't know why that is.
29:26 Speaker 03 Well, yeah, I mean, it's the reason that we're here. Our ancestors uh, put on fat and they survived the famine. We don't have famines anymore. Thank goodness. But we, we've descended from those people. So we've got the, the genes in our brain that say, eat, eat, eat.
29:40 Lewis Howes? How do you turn that gene off?
29:41 Speaker 03 Well, well, you, you can, you can take certain types of food. I, I drink a lot of tea uh, and coffee, uh, hot water even, just to fill up my stomach. That works really well.
29:52 Lewis Howes? Okay. Hot water, not cold water?
29:54 Speaker 03 Uh, I just like the feeling of hot water. Cold water uh, isn't as, I actually, it might be something about the heat. I've never thought about it, but for me, that's what works. So when I get a little bit hungry at lunchtime, I'll just, I'm, I'm basically drinking tea.
30:07 Lewis Howes? Warm water tea. Yeah, you put it like some, um, interesting.
30:09 Speaker 03 But, but it's a fight all the time. You know, I fly a lot and, and people are bringing.
30:14 Lewis Howes? Nuts and cookies and ice cream and.
30:16 Speaker 03 And you gotta fight it. And it's really hard to fight.
30:19 Lewis Howes? How do you say no?
30:21 Speaker 03 Well, I do.
30:22 Lewis Howes? You do?
30:23 Speaker 03 But how do I do that? So I've trained myself uh, to fight it. And the best thing that I do besides saying, can I have a cup of tea, is what do I wanna look like? Next week, what do I want to look like a year from now? What do I want to look like when I'm eighty?
30:37 Lewis Howes? So you tell yourself that, you ask yourself the question. I think it's also how do you want to feel? Tonight, tomorrow, next week, when you're eighty? It's like, look like and feel, combination is powerful.
30:48 Speaker 03 Right, because your mind is saying now is important and you've got to train yourself to say, tomorrow and the next year is just as important.
30:56 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
30:56 Speaker 03 Right, and that's more important.
30:58 Lewis Howes? Okay, so was that the fourth thing or the fifth thing?
31:00 Speaker 03 The fifth thing I didn't mention, there are a couple of things, let's divide it up. One is get good night's sleep.
31:05 Lewis Howes? Sleep is everything.
31:06 Speaker 03 Yeah, and then surround yourself by friends and people who'll take care of you.
31:10 Lewis Howes? Yeah. That's like the Blue Zone way too, right? It's like be around a good community, get lots of rest and naps, move a little bit, eat healthy, right?
31:20 Speaker 03 Well, these are things that most people should know, but they don't do. So you and I are here to motivate people to do that. But the research that I discuss in the book is how to take that to a new level, how to optimize those things. And add some science in there.
31:39 Dr. Matthew Walker? Sleep is probably the single most effective thing that you can do to reset both your brain, but also your body health, of course, as well. And I don't say that flippantly against the notions of diet and exercise, of course, both of those are fundamentally critical. But if I were to take you, Lewis, and I were to deprive you of sleep for twenty-four hours, deprive you of food for twenty-four hours, or deprive you of even water or exercise for twenty-four hours, and then I were to map the brain and body impairment that you would suffer after each one of those four, hands down, by a country mile, a lack of sleep will implode your brain and body far more significantly.
32:22 Dr. Matthew Walker? The only one I would probably lose out on is oxygen.
32:28 Dr. Matthew Walker? At that point, I'll give it up. You know, sleep will take the silver medal, oxygen definitely gets the gold. But thereafter, sleep seems to be paramount.
32:36 Lewis Howes? Over sleep, food and water, sleep is the most important thing.
32:41 Dr. Matthew Walker? I would, yeah, you know, I I used to say that sleep was the third pillar of good health alongside diet and exercise, but I think the evidence has suggested that I was utterly wrong, that sleep in fact is the foundation on which those two other things sit. And you can do wonderful things in those two mains, domains, but if you're not getting sufficient sleep, those things tend to be far more futile as a consequence.
33:07 Lewis Howes? Yeah. And so what is sufficient sleep then?
33:09 Dr. Matthew Walker? So right now, we recommend somewhere between seven to nine hours for the average adult. Once we know that you go below seven hours of sleep, we can start to measure objective impairments in your brain and your body. And in fact, the number of people who can survive on less than six hours of sleep without showing any impairment, rounded to a whole number and expressed as a percent of the population, is zero.
33:37 Lewis Howes? Hmm. Without any impairment, what does that mean?
33:40 Dr. Matthew Walker? So if I can measure lots of different operations of your brain, let's say your cognition, your attention, your learning and memory, also your moods and your emotions and your anxiety, or downstairs in the body, I can measure aspects of your cardiovascular system or your blood pressure, or I could measure your immune system or your metabolic system, how it's regulating your blood sugar and your glucose. I can measure this sort of pinwheel, this kaleidoscope of health metrics on Lewis Howes. And then I can see, when I keep dialing you back with less and less sleep, at what point do I see at least one of those things demonstrating a breaking point?
34:21 Dr. Matthew Walker? And it's very rare for us to be able to find any individual who can go below six hours of sleep and not show some kind of impairment. And a great, even frightening demonstration of this, a study took a group of perfectly healthy individuals, and they limited them to six hours of sleep a night for one week. And then they measured the change in their gene activity profile relative to when those same individuals were getting a full eight-hour night of sleep.
34:51 Lewis Howes? And what happened?
34:52 Dr. Matthew Walker? And there were two critical findings. The first was that a sizable and significant 711 genes were distorted in their activity caused by that one week of short sleep. And that's, you know, in some ways, I think about this, Lewis, because it's It's reality. We know that almost a third of the population is trying to survive on six hours of sleep or less. So it's it's not just, you know, total sleep deprivation, which doesn't happen very frequently. This is a common occurrence. What I found most interesting was that about half of those genes were actually increased in their activity. The other half were decreased. Now, those genes that were suppressed were genes associated with your immune system.
35:34 Dr. Matthew Walker? So you became immune compromised or immune deficient. Those genes that were increased in their activity, or what we call overexpressed, were genes associated with the promotion of tumors, genes that were associated with cardiovascular disease and stress, and genes that were associated with long-term chronic inflammation within the body. And I I make that point just because, you know, many people, I think, have this concern about things such as genetically modified embryos, or even genetically modified food. But when we don't get sufficient sleep, we are unwittingly performing a genetic manipulation on ourselves. You know, if we don't let our kids get the sleep that they need, then
36:17 Dr. Matthew Walker? we're inflicting a similar genetic engineering experiment on them as well.
36:21 Lewis Howes? Wow. This is crazy. So what if you've been sleeping less than six hours a night for years? What is that saying to your genes? And is there a way to recover the gene damage and reverse and go back to a healthy genes, healthy body, healthy life?
36:42 Dr. Matthew Walker? So firstly, we know that short sleep duration, so using that sweet spot, and we can speak about oversleeping or excess sleep, because I think that's an interesting part that hasn't been spoken about too much. But using that recommended CDC amount of seven to nine hours of sleep, there is a simple fact firstly, across the lifespan, which is the shorter your sleep, the shorter your life. That short sleep predicts all-cause mortality. But then we can dig a little bit deeper and start to sort of ask, you know, exactly what is going on? Why is there such mortality risk caused by insufficient sleep? And what we know is that a lack of sleep and typically getting certainly less than six hours
37:23 Dr. Matthew Walker? of sleep is associated with a higher risk of cardiovascular disease, higher risk of diabetes, higher risk of stroke, higher risk of dementia. And I would love to double click on that and go into the Alzheimer's disease risk because that now evidence is very, very strong. And then downstairs in the body, we know that there is links between a lack of sleep and certain forms of cancer. After, if I were to take you and limit you to, let's say, four or five hours of sleep for one week, your blood sugar levels would be so disrupted that your doctor would classify you as being prediabetic. Oh, my goodness. So that's not a lifetime, that's just one week. And there's an even more interesting experiment that I think speaks to the subtlety of this, because there is the largest sleep
38:08 Dr. Matthew Walker? study that's ever been conducted, and it happens actually to around 1.6 billion people across 70 countries twice a year, and it's called daylight savings time. Now, in the spring, when we lose just one hour of sleep opportunity, firstly, what we've seen is that there seems to be a 24% increase in relative heart attack risk the next day, which stuns me. And what's fascinating, in the fall, in the autumn, when we gain an hour of sleep, there's a 21% reduction in heart attacks. So it's bidirectional, and that's just one hour of sleep. And you see, there was some
38:48 Dr. Matthew Walker? great recent data, you see a very similar profile regarding that daylight savings shift for road traffic accidents on our streets. I've heard about this. Tragically, suicide rates as well. And then even more recently, what we discovered is that during that springtime shift, when you lose an hour of sleep, the sentencing of federal judges is significantly harsher because their mood and their emotion is that much worse because of that one hour of lost sleep, that they dole out harsher sentences. So, you know, we can walk, you know, you can ask the question, what about a lifetime? We don't even have to ask about a lifetime of short sleep.
39:31 Dr. Matthew Walker? We can ask about these really, you know, one week of short sleep or even one night of one hour of lost sleep. And I think that's how fragile our brains and our bodies are to this thing called a lack of sleep. And you could then ask, well, you know, why are we so sensitive? Because I can go without food for 24 hours and I can go without water for 24 hours. You know, I'm still not too bad. I'm in fairly decent shape. Why is sleep the exception to that rule? And the answer seems to be this. Human beings are the only species that will deliberately deprive themselves of sleep for no apparent good reason.
40:12 Lewis Howes? Why is that?
40:13 Dr. Matthew Walker? And it was such a unique thing. And what that means is that Mother Nature, through the course of evolution, because no other species does this without real need for survival. And I can speak about some of the exceptions, but human beings are strange like this. In other words, Mother Nature hasn't have to face the challenge of coming up with a solution called sleep deprivation because she's never faced it in the course of evolution. And so there is no safety net in place here. And that's why we think human beings implode so quickly and thoroughly, mentally, cognitively and physically, caused by insufficient sleep.
40:52 Lewis Howes? And why do you think, why is the, why are the majority of people bad at getting good sleep? Is it, what is it, we're distracted? Is it we think we need to be doing more? Is we're stressed and worried about the past and the future? Is it, you know, what, we just want to work harder? What is the main cause of why we get poor sleep?
41:13 Dr. Matthew Walker? That's, it's such a fundamental question. And in some ways, it's all of the above plus. So I think the first, and I've thought about this a great deal. Why are we suffering this global sleep loss epidemic that we're under right now? I think the first thing is that unfortunately, sleep has an image problem. That, you know, the PR agent for sleep should be fired because we associate sufficient sleep with this concept of being lazy, of being slothful. And that's a terrible disservice to this thing called sleep. And it is very different to things like diet and exercise. You know, I think a lot of people like to virtue signal with, you know, what they eat.
41:57 Dr. Matthew Walker? And they certainly are very proud to tell you, you know, I work out five times a week. I'm in the gym at this time of morning and, you know, all of which I think are great and to be applauded and supported. But we have the very opposite. We have this almost, you know, well, we, we don't. Some, some niches of society have this sleep machismo attitude, you know, this kind of you can sleep when you're dead mentality, which by the way, based on the evidence is mortally unwise. Yeah, it will lead to both a shorter life and a life that is significantly less healthy. So I think the first thing is we need to change our cultural appreciation of sleep from something that is a waste of
42:41 Dr. Matthew Walker? time to something that in fact is an incredible investment. It is probably the very best and the most freely available democratic and painless health insurance policy that I could ever imagine. I think the next thing is the way that we work in society. We are working for longer hours and before the pandemic, people were commuting increasingly longer amounts of time. What that meant was that people were leaving the house earlier. They were arriving home later and no one wants to shortchange time with family or Netflix or whatever is your poison. And so the one thing that has become squeezed like vice
43:24 Dr. Matthew Walker? grips in the middle of the night is this thing called a sufficient bout of slumber. But then there are plenty of people who give themselves the opportunity to get enough sleep, but they can't obtain it. And that is where things such as insomnia or sleep disorders, things like snoring come into play. And you touch on, and I know that you've spoken, and I'm so grateful for what you've done regarding discussions of mental health. We know that one of the principal roadblocks to getting this thing called a good night of sleep is anxiety.
44:00 Lewis Howes? Stress, worry, anxiety, regret, all those things.
44:04 Dr. Matthew Walker? Yep.
44:05 Lewis Howes? Resentment, holding on to all that stuff.
44:07 Dr. Matthew Walker? It is, that is toxic to sleep. You're absolutely right. And in fact, anxiety and physiological stress is our principal model for the explanation of insomnia right now. It's not the only cause, but it seems to be one of the principal causes. And in modern society, it's become so easy, and I'm not finger wagging, I, you know, I'm just as guilty. We are constantly on reception, but rarely do we do reflection. And unfortunately, the time when most of us do reflection is when we turn off the light and our head hits the pillow.
44:44 Lewis Howes? Hmm.
44:44 Dr. Matthew Walker? And that's the last time.
44:46 Lewis Howes? The worst time.
44:46 Dr. Matthew Walker? Oh, you know, because I don't know about you, Lewis, but, you know, at night in the dark, thoughts are not the same thing, you know, concerns become twice as big or you're 10x the size of concerns. I start to worry, I ruminate, I catastrophize. Yet in the light of day, those things seem very different. And so we can speak about sleep tips perhaps later on, but certainly getting right with your emotions and your anxiety is key to good sleep. And that's one of the things that prevents sleep. I also think that there's a, an issue at the public health level. You know, we've had in many first world nations,
45:30 Dr. Matthew Walker? wonderful government mandates regarding health, regarding drink driving, regarding, you know, safe sex, regarding drugs and alcohol, and even food, and even inactivity and sitting. When was the last time you heard of a first world nation provide a public health message and memorandum regarding sleep?
45:53 Lewis Howes? Never.
45:54 Dr. Matthew Walker? And I don't remember one either. So from every level at, you know, at a public health, global, you know, government level down to a workplace level, you know, we lord the airport warrior who's flown through four different time zones in the past three days. They were on email at two and then they're back in the office at six, you know, we, so we need to.
46:18 Lewis Howes? We celebrated those people.
46:19 Dr. Matthew Walker? We did, you know, and the funny thing, by the way, is that after about twenty hours of being awake straight, you are as cognitively impaired as you would be if you were legally drunk. Now, I would never, you know, as a CEO, say, I have got this fantastic team of people. They're drunk all of the time. But we do say, I've got this fantastic group of people. They just are at it all hours. They are dedicated. They're always working, you know, they spend minimal time sleeping. They're just all out. They love this project. But we've got this strange mentality. And then I think it comes down to, um, you know, even within schools, we've got this
47:01 Dr. Matthew Walker? incessant model of early school start times and.
47:05 Lewis Howes? Super early, isn't it?
47:07 Dr. Matthew Walker? It's, it's incredible.
47:08 Lewis Howes? They gotta be there, what, six thirty or seven or something, right?
47:10 Dr. Matthew Walker? Six thirty, seven, seven thirty. And that data is actually very powerful. What we found is that when we delay school start times, first academic grades increase.
47:20 Lewis Howes? Wow.
47:20 Dr. Matthew Walker? Truancy rates decrease. Psychological and psychiatric issues decrease. But then what we also discovered is that the life expectancy of students increased. And you may be thinking, well, hang on a sec, you know, how do you, how do you measure that? And the leading cause of death in teenagers sixteen to eighteen is actually not suicide. That's second. It's road traffic accidents.
47:50 Lewis Howes? Really?
47:50 Dr. Matthew Walker? And here, sleep matters enormously. And I'll give you one example. It was in Teton County in Wyoming. They delayed their school start times from seven thirty in the morning to night, to eight fifty-five. By the way, what are we doing trying to educate our children at seven thirty in the morning?
48:09 Lewis Howes? I can't think. Yeah, I mean, I remember being in school and being, every day was hard for me. Every day I was tired, every day it was hard to focus, or I'd be. Irritable or wanted to like, you know, jittery or something, but it was like so hard to focus. And then you're at lunchtime and then I eat and I'm tired again afterwards and you want me to focus and pay attention at a desk. It's like, that doesn't work like that for me, especially on no sleep or very little.
48:33 Dr. Matthew Walker? For any, any, you know, in sort of developing brain, it doesn't work like that. And for some people to make a seven thirty AM start time, school buses will begin leaving at six o'clock or five thirty in the morning. That means that some kids are having to wake up at five, five fifteen. This is lunacy. And, and what we've understood from the academic grades, and I'll come back to the car accidents in a second. When sleep is abundant, minds flourish. And when it's not, they don't. And what we've discovered with the road traffic accidents in Teton County, when they made that shift.
49:13 Dr. Matthew Walker? The only thing more remarkable than the extra one hour of sleep that those kids reported getting was the reduction in car crashes. The following year, there was a seventy percent drop in vehicle accidents.
49:25 Lewis Howes? Wow.
49:26 Dr. Matthew Walker? And to put that in context, you know, the advent of ABS technology, anti-lock brake systems. That dropped accident rates by twenty to twenty-five percent and it was deemed a revolution.
49:38 Dr. Matthew Walker? Here is the simple fact of getting enough sleep that will drop accident rates by seventy percent. So, you know, I, I, I need to get off my soapbox, but what I would say is this. I think if our goal as educators is to educate and not risk lives in the process. Then we are failing our children in the most spectacular manner with this incessant model of early school start times.
50:01 Lewis Howes? Is anyone listening to this that you've been speaking about this too? And they're actually adopting this new model, whether it be work time or school time or just, you know, integrating this. Do you know systems that are integrating this?
50:16 Dr. Matthew Walker? There have been some, and I think I I've tried to do this in the education domain. I've tried to do this within medicine because the way that we train residents is is almost inhumane. Actually, it's not almost, it absolutely is inhumane, and the statistics there are stunning as well. And then I've tried to do it in the workplace too, because I do a lot of speaking events at sort of Fortune 500 companies. And at first, I think I took the wrong approach where I was really speaking a little bit more about sort of the compassionate approach, you know, why it's good and kind for people to gift them more sleep. Because I see sleep as a biological necessity.
50:59 Dr. Matthew Walker? And if it's a biological necessity, then I think it's a civil necessity. And if it's a civil necessity, sleep is a civil right.
51:09 Dr. Matthew Walker? But what I would say is that that wasn't particularly well received. You know, I'd go into business companies and say, your employees, you know, they're desperate for more sleep. They will be happier and healthier. Or I would speak about medicine and I would speak about, you know, what it was doing to the patients and the harm. And it would fall on deaf ears. What I then realized is that if you're going to change large organizations, you have to speak in their currency, which is
51:36 Lewis Howes? Money.
51:36 Dr. Matthew Walker? Money.
51:37 Lewis Howes? Yeah, you need to.
51:38 Dr. Matthew Walker? And then I would describe the medical malpractice lawsuits that would come and the cost savings within medicine firstly. And then administration started to change the tune. Because before that, you know, there was almost this old boys' network in medicine where we went through residency and it's almost a hazing. And despite armed with incredible data to the contrary, I think the mentality 10 years ago when I started trying to do that was my mind's made up. Don't confuse me with the evidence.
52:11 Lewis Howes? Crazy. Why? It's because they went through that themselves and so they want to pay it back or something.
52:15 Dr. Matthew Walker? I think so. I think there was some of that.
52:17 Lewis Howes? I went through hell, so everyone else has to go through hell. Yeah.
52:20 Dr. Matthew Walker? Right. It's a rite of passage. You know, if you are tough enough, you'll make it through. It's kind of like boot camp, which I don't think we need to do anymore. And then within business, you could describe, you know, the Rand Corporation did an independent survey a couple of years ago, and what they found was that insufficient sleep will cost most nations about 2% of their GDP of their gross domestic product. So here in the US, that number was $411 billion of lost productivity due to insufficient sleep. In Japan, it was $130 billion. My home country, the UK, it was over $50 billion. So if I could solve the sleep loss crisis within the workplace, I could almost double the budget for education in the US, or I could halve the healthcare deficit.
53:07 Dr. Matthew Walker? So when you speak about money, then people start to listen. So that's how I've tried to communicate. But and I don't think I'm a, I don't think I'm a particularly good communicator, and I've been sometimes bull in a china shop, as I probably have been for the first however long we've been talking. But it's just because I'm so, you know, I'm just desperately passionate about this thing called sleep. And some years ago, before I started trying to, I wrote a book, and then I've been doing podcasts. Sleep was the neglected stepsister in the health conversation of today. It was a second citizen. And I was so sad to see the disease, the sickness, the harm, the lack of productivity, the impact on education that a lack of sleep
53:52 Dr. Matthew Walker? was having.
53:53 Lewis Howes? I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
Previous Do THIS To Get Rich and STAY Rich (It’s Deceptively SIMPLE!) | Morgan Housel Next Esther Perel's SECRET FORMULA for Desire in Long-Term Relationships (Never CHEAT Again!) Page updated September 29, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
