Pod Insights The School of Greatness Trauma Specialist: Overcome the Cycle of Your Shame by Healing Trauma & Learning to Love Yourself! About this episode Welcome back to The School of Greatness! Today, we're joined by Dr. Frank Anderson, a leading trauma expert and psychiatrist. Dr. Anderson opens up about his challenging journey, growing up in a traditional Italian American family that was both intensely loving and painfully unaccepting. From enduring six years of conversion therapy starting at just six years old to breaking the chains of generational trauma, Dr. Anderson's story is one of courage, healing, and the transformative power of embracing one's true self. Today, he's here to share insights on how to navigate through personal traumas and to help us understand the profound impact of acceptance and love. Get ready to dive deep into a story of resilience and transformation with Dr. Frank Anderson. Buy his book for yourself and a friend! To Be Loved: A Story of Truth, Trauma, and TransformationIn this episode you will learnThe challenges of growing up in a family with conflicting messages of love and acceptance. How enduring difficult childhood experiences can impact one's self-perception and mental health. The importance of embracing one's true identity despite societal pressures. Strategies to overcome personal traumas and foster resilience and healing. Why acceptance and love play crucial roles in personal growth and transformation. For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1615For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Dr. Becky Kennedy – https://link.chtbl.com/1586-podRhonda Byrne – https://link.chtbl.com/1525-podDr. Joe Dispenza – https://link.chtbl.com/1540-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX
Transcript 18,540 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Trauma is negative energy that you carry. The more you release it, the more you you become. But there is a way to release it.
0:10 Speaker 01 I have a very, very special guest today. MD, psychiatrist, therapist, speaker, and trauma specialist.
0:16 Lewis Howes? And author of a newly released memoir, To Be Loved.
0:19 Speaker 01 Frank Anderson.
0:20 Lewis Howes? Dr. Frank Anderson, good to see you.
0:22 Speaker 00 Like at 32 is when my life fell apart. I was just too disconnected, like, wow, Frank, you were so far from you. When we make decisions from parts of us that are trying to protect us.
0:36 Lewis Howes? Or please others.
0:37 Speaker 00 Or please others. And a lot of that is fear of loss of connection. In here, our truth, our authenticity, is silently screaming inside.
0:49 Lewis Howes? What would you say is the number one emotion that blocks us from peace, harmony, and ultimate happiness?
0:56 Speaker 00 Shame. I think it's shame. Shame is so toxic. And shame is usually the result of relational trauma.
1:04 Lewis Howes? What happens if we sweep it under the rug? We run away from it? What happens to everyone if we do that?
1:11 Speaker 00 I'll tell you what happened to me. We'll start there.
1:16 Lewis Howes? Welcome back, everyone, in the School of Greatness. We have the inspiring Frank Anderson in the house, who is a Harvard-trained psychiatrist, a renowned trauma expert, and an expert on IFS and CPTSD, among many other things around how to heal trauma. And I'm so excited that you're here. I saw this stat online that said 70% of adults in the US have experienced some type of traumatic event at least once in their life.
1:43 Speaker 01 That's right.
1:44 Lewis Howes? That is, you know, a majority of the US population. And I'm assuming that's similar around the world.
1:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:50 Lewis Howes? And I'm curious, how do we, you know, to start it off, a big question. How do we really face the things we've been running away from our entire lives?
2:01 Lewis Howes? So that we can integrate these traumatic moments, memories, or events in our life that have caused us to run away from them or chase things to fill an empty hole or traumatic hole experience in our life. How do we really start to turn around and face these moments that are so crippling and create so much fear and stress within us?
2:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
2:24 Lewis Howes? How does that process even begin?
2:27 Speaker 00 Well, it typically begins for people when their life falls apart.
2:30 Lewis Howes? Yes.
2:31 Speaker 00 Sorry to say that.
2:32 Lewis Howes? When there's a massive breakdown.
2:33 Speaker 00 Right? People do not come to therapy because they're like, I have unresolved childhood trauma. Nobody goes, it's because I'm drinking too much. My wife is, you know, divorcing me. I've had an affair. I'm hitting my kids. Like, people start real, like, they're gonna hit their bottom to say, okay, it's time to do something different. Right? So that's the way most people get into this. I'm trying to bring people in in a different way. Like, hey, we all have some form of trauma. Like, and you know, the word trauma is activating for people. Right? So, I don't have trauma. Like, in the general public, I don't have trauma.
3:16 Speaker 00 You know, not me. I'm not weak. That's not me. So there's this avoidance of the word. There's an avoidance of dealing with the pain. Move forward. You know, why go back? What's the point? So I'm trying to teach people, educate people. Like, maybe you can do a little preventative medicine here. Like, what if we looked at this before it became a disaster in your life?
3:42 Lewis Howes? That's powerful, and I can relate to that because, I don't know, it's about 11 years ago, I finally started getting into opening up and facing the parts of me that were causing shame, resentment, anger, fear, stress, overwhelm, and breakdown in my life. And it was a storm of multiple events from a breakdown in an intimate relationship, a business relationship, and then me taking it out on the basketball court with my anger on others who were just like, you know, random bystanders. To where a friend was like, hey, I don't like the way you're showing up. And I allowed me to look in the mirror and say, man, all these breakdowns, the common denominator is me.
4:24 Speaker 00 Right.
4:25 Lewis Howes? You know.
4:26 Speaker 00 Yeah.
4:26 Lewis Howes? But I didn't want to acknowledge it. I wanted to blame everyone else.
4:29 Speaker 00 That's right.
4:29 Lewis Howes? I wanted to say, they don't understand me, they don't get me, they're taking advantage of me, they're abusing me.
4:35 Speaker 00 That's right.
4:35 Lewis Howes? They're, whatever it might be, it's pointing the blame at others as opposed to looking within.
4:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
4:40 Lewis Howes? And when I had these different events that caused me multiple breakdowns.
4:44 Speaker 00 Right.
4:44 Lewis Howes? And someone confronting me that I cared about.
4:47 Speaker 00 Right.
4:47 Lewis Howes? I was like, oh, maybe I should take a look at myself.
4:50 Speaker 00 Yes.
4:51 Lewis Howes? And that started the journey over the last 11 years of healing.
4:55 Speaker 00 That's right.
4:56 Lewis Howes? And healing is a journey.
4:57 Speaker 00 Yeah.
4:57 Lewis Howes? It's not like it was overnight and I'm healed and I'm better. But it allowed me to start diving into these different therapeutic experiences.
5:05 Speaker 00 Right.
5:06 Lewis Howes? That have given me harmony and peace and wholeness back.
5:09 Speaker 00 Yeah.
5:10 Lewis Howes? And I, and I want, and I know this has been your mission for a long time to
5:13 Speaker 00 Yeah.
5:13 Lewis Howes? to help people heal from traumas. And one of the things is I know a lot of people that say, I had great childhoods. My parents were great. I, beautiful, loving families and relationships. And maybe they didn't have big T traumas, but they had little T traumas.
5:29 Speaker 00 That's right.
5:29 Lewis Howes? That caused them to be avoidant, resentful, get into situations where they allow their boundaries to be crossed over and over again. They become doormats, things like that. So what is the difference between big T trauma, little T trauma?
5:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
5:44 Lewis Howes? And should we be thinking about addressing both of them?
5:47 Speaker 00 Hundred percent. It's a great move. It's a great shift that's happening in culture and society. And, you know, friends of ours, mutual friend Nicole Lepara is a perfect person that's like, hey, maybe when you're ignored, hey, maybe when you're yelled at, that can have an impact too, right? So she's a, a perfect person that's bringing that awareness. You know, for people who know about the ACE studies, the Adverse Childhood Experiences Study.
6:12 Lewis Howes? Yes.
6:13 Speaker 00 Big study here in California. Right? And they looked at kids that were growing up in alcoholic families, kids that had divorces. There was physical or verbal abuse in there and all of the problems. That these kids had growing up and all the cost bigger deal to the medicals community like, oh, that's when everybody started looking. So
6:33 Lewis Howes? How many things are, what is that? What is that called?
6:35 Speaker 00 ACE, the ACE study.
6:37 Lewis Howes? ACE study.
6:38 Speaker 00 Adverse childhood experiences.
6:40 Lewis Howes? And how many, how many, I guess, points are there in that?
6:43 Speaker 00 Oh, I don't remember. There's like, they have a questionnaire and there's a scale, a rating scale. I think there are nine points, but I'm not
6:50 Lewis Howes? It's like nine, if you had like, your parents were divorced.
6:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:53 Lewis Howes? If you had sexual abuse.
6:54 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:54 Lewis Howes? If you were yelled at, if you were, or whatever it might be.
6:57 Speaker 00 Witnessed something.
6:59 Lewis Howes? If you witnessed something traumatic.
7:00 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's another thing.
7:01 Lewis Howes? I remember someone reading this off to me and I was like, I think I've experienced every one of those things.
7:06 Speaker 00 Right?
7:06 Lewis Howes? And I was like, does that just mean I'm messed up for life?
7:09 Speaker 00 No. If, if everybody took the scale, everybody would have a lot of them. This is the thing that, this is what I was saying earlier. People get weirded out by the word trauma. I'm using Lewis overwhelming life experience.
7:22 Lewis Howes? Yes.
7:23 Speaker 00 It's, it's more palatable for people. I'm like, have you ever had an overwhelming life experience? Well, yeah, like, of course bullied on the playground or any shamed at so and so or failing in school or not making the football team, whatever it is. So people relate to that word overwhelming life experience differently than some people are adverse to the word trauma because I'm not weak, right?
7:48 Lewis Howes? They're triggered by trauma.
7:49 Speaker 00 Exactly. That's exactly right. So I'm trying to normalize that in the ways that I can and say, look, these things have an effect on us and we naturally have ways to try to protect ourselves. They might not be the most effective, but give yourselves a break for the ways you're trying to protect yourself or push the bad stuff away. I, I do this like cavemen. We're wired like in the day, touch the fire, the fire hurts, stay away from the fire. You know, it's like that. So we're just automatically programmed to stay away from pain. So bringing people to the pain, they're like, why would I do that? Right? So it is counterintuitive. I was talking to somebody the other day. It's like, it's like you're,
8:35 Speaker 00 we do the U-turn, go inside and you're going against the current. Because the current is stay away, push it away, get rid of it, move forward.
8:47 Lewis Howes? Sweep it out of the rug.
8:48 Speaker 00 Yeah. And that's what our natural instinct is.
8:51 Lewis Howes? What happens if we?
8:54 Lewis Howes? Resist looking at the overwhelming life experiences or traumas in our life. And we sweep it under the rug, we run away from it. What happens to everyone if we do that?
9:05 Speaker 00 I'll tell you what happened to me. We'll start there. Like, because I was in therapy, as you know, starting at six years old.
9:12 Lewis Howes? Your parents forced you to do this, right?
9:14 Speaker 00 As a kid, you don't, you know, the book opens like, you're not going to school today, Frankie. It's like, why? We're going to a hospital. For what? I'm not sick, you know? And I went downtown for psych testing because I got caught in my cousin's basement playing with her Barbie playhouse. This was back in the day when being gay was a total disorder, right? So my parents, well intended, by the way. Oh, we have to make Frankie normal. They sent me to therapy for six years as a kid because I got caught playing. I thought the Barbie playhouse was cool. The toilet, the little furniture. I was like a kid, I didn't know, I wasn't like-
9:52 Lewis Howes? Exploring.
9:53 Speaker 00 I was exploring and at the time, it was a problem. So I was in therapy for a long time, learned how to do boy things, how to play with boy toys, how to act like a boy, like do baseball. I did all this kind of stuff. And so I learned, I was taught to suppress, right? I was taught to suppress. What I ended up doing was marrying a woman, which is what you're supposed to do as a man, right? And so it was a kind of a mess. Like at 32 is when my life fell apart. Like you talked about yours, right?
10:28 Lewis Howes? When you got married, was there something inside of you when you're like walking down the aisle? Or I guess you're not walking down, but when you're about to get married, is there something inside of you that's saying like, I don't think this feels right? Or were you like, I'm excited and this is going to be my future forever?
10:43 Speaker 00 I would like to, so here's what it was like actually for me was like- This is what you're supposed to be. This is what you're supposed to do. I was doing the right thing. I didn't even know what love was. I was, I never felt in love in my life. I didn't even know that I was missing, like, I didn't know I was missing something. I was like, this is what everybody else is doing. We were friends.
11:08 Lewis Howes? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:09 Speaker 00 I really liked her as a friend, but I didn't even understand what love was in that way. So I just did the right thing. I did what everybody wanted me to do. Everybody seemed happy and I liked her. You know what I mean?
11:21 Lewis Howes? We got along.
11:21 Speaker 00 I got along and, you know, here's the thing, honestly, maybe not every gay guy could do this. I could have sex with a woman. It felt pleasurable, like it was physically pleasurable. I had an orgasm, like, I could do that. So there wasn't even that that was like, Frank, this is a problem here. Do you know what I mean? Everybody's got their orientation on a spectrum, right? So I wasn't like walking, receiving her at the end of the aisle, being like, this is a problem.
11:49 Lewis Howes? Dreading it.
11:49 Speaker 00 Stop this. I was just too disconnected. I, I feel sad about that now. Like, wow, Frank, you were so far from you. Look what you did. You know, look what you were able to do so disconnected. You know, so that was.
12:06 Lewis Howes? What is, what happens in someone's life when they make decisions out of disconnection to please parents, society, certain rules or standards versus being fully and wholly who they are and meant to be? What happens?
12:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, the difference, it's a great question. It's a great question because the difference when we make decisions from parts of us that are trying to protect us.
12:34 Lewis Howes? Or please others.
12:35 Speaker 00 Or please others. And a lot of that is fear of loss of connection. I'm gonna do this because this is what, I can see this is what you want from me. And if I give you what you want from me, then I won't lose you. A lot of it is, right? A lot of it is fear of loss.
12:54 Lewis Howes? But you lose yourself.
12:55 Speaker 00 You lose yourself.
12:57 Lewis Howes? Or parts of yourself.
12:58 Speaker 00 Or you never had yourself. See, this is what happens with kids. When parents are yelling or screaming or drunk or whatever it is, ignoring you.
13:10 Speaker 00 You as a child have to choose them over you.
13:15 Lewis Howes? To survive.
13:15 Speaker 00 To survive. You have to choose them over you, right? So you learn you're the last one that's important.
13:23 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
13:24 Speaker 00 Okay? You relating to that on some level?
13:26 Lewis Howes? I mean, I think a lot of people are related to that, yeah.
13:28 Speaker 00 We do. That's what happens. So we're kinda programmed that way. And so we make these decisions in a disconnected way. Most of us do. And then it falls apart because this in here, our truth, our authenticity is screaming, silently screaming inside. Because we're not living an authentic life.
13:52 Lewis Howes? How do you, you know, someone's watching or listening and saying, you know, I love my parents and I love my family and, you know, the family that I grew up with, obviously everyone's a little dysfunctional.
14:02 Speaker 00 Yes.
14:03 Lewis Howes? But they don't support my decision of...
14:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:07 Lewis Howes? Whatever. Of me choosing to love this person. They don't support my decision of pursuing a career that I love. They don't, it's against their Christian religion or something religion for me to wanna fully step into who I believe I'm supposed to be.
14:21 Speaker 00 Right.
14:22 Lewis Howes? Whether I'm right or wrong about it, but it's what I fully believe feels right to me.
14:26 Speaker 00 That's right.
14:27 Lewis Howes? How do you have the courage to be who you wanna be without disappointing, letting down, and disconnecting with your parents, family, and community?
14:39 Speaker 00 It just happened to me recently with my mom. I'll tell you about this a little bit later in our discussion together. We have a hard time with the "and" of things. We have a really hard time with an "and." Like, can I be myself and also love you? Can I be myself and tolerate your feelings of disappointment?
15:06 Speaker 00 Okay, so we, kids don't do and because they don't have the psychological capacity.
15:13 Lewis Howes? Yeah, or the emotional regulation.
15:14 Speaker 00 No, you can't do it. So adults have a really hard time doing that. So do parents, you know.
15:20 Lewis Howes? They never learned how to do it.
15:21 Speaker 00 They never learned how to do it. So this and is really complicated.
15:25 Lewis Howes? It's kind of black or white. You either live by the standards or the rules or the code that I live by.
15:30 Speaker 00 That's exactly right.
15:31 Lewis Howes? Or I don't know how to be with you.
15:32 Speaker 00 Right. And I have to, I have to truly like, love, respect myself enough to choose me over disappointing you. That is not easy to do. I'll tell you, I'll tell you a story recently. So my mom, it's a lot in there about both my parents. You don't, you know, my dad was physically and verbally abusive to me. My mom was kind of the passive bystander, right? You need that combination in order for it to happen. And she won't read the book. She's like, I can't read this book.
16:08 Lewis Howes? It's too traumatizing for her.
16:09 Speaker 00 It's too traumatizing. You're defaming the family. My father passed away and you know, you're, you're destroying his. So I said to her, this was last week when I was in Chicago filming something. I said, Mom, is it possible for you to love him? And acknowledge that I was hurt growing up? I said, if you, if you can't, that's okay. Okay, I can now. I actually love my father. And he really hurt me for things that were more about him than they were about me. And what I said, Louis, was, I mean, this is raw, like, right? Like, do we ever stop healing? No. Like, this was last week. I'm like, Mom,
16:53 Speaker 00 I chose you my whole childhood because I needed to. When I came out at 32, that was the first time I chose myself over you.
17:05 Lewis Howes? Wow.
17:05 Speaker 00 And I'm doing it again. I'm sorry. I'm gonna tell my story. This is my truth. And if I lose you over that, I'm, I'm gonna take that risk. I hope I don't because I love you. I could love you and know what happens. And I hope you can too. And it was a big moment for us. And she throws to the, I'll tell you, she was 84 years old. God love her. She's like, I love you. Yes, you were hurt and I'm sorry I didn't protect you.
17:37 Lewis Howes? Wow, my gosh.
17:38 Speaker 00 I swear to God, it's such a gift.
17:40 Lewis Howes? That's healing.
17:41 Speaker 00 It was hugely healing. It was hugely healing for me. It's like, I didn't ever expected that. I had a moment with my dad at the end of his life, which was hugely healing. And then I had this like last week with her and I was like, right before the book comes out. And she's like, I'm gonna read the book. Okay, Mom. So she was able to, because of my, my capacity to show up helped her capacity to join me.
18:08 Lewis Howes? Yeah, and it sounds like, I'm assuming you didn't come from a defensive, upset way of communicating.
18:13 Speaker 00 No, 100%.
18:15 Lewis Howes? You came from a courageous, loving, appreciation.
18:18 Speaker 00 I love you, I care about you.
18:19 Lewis Howes? I'm grateful for these things. And an understanding of, you know, someone who's my heroes, my parents essentially.
18:26 Speaker 00 Definitely.
18:27 Lewis Howes? I can love them and be frustrated and hurt by the things that they didn't know what they were doing also. They didn't have the tools or the skill sets to be able to teach. Because you were able to have empathy and step into their shoes from their generation, what they knew, and what they lacked knowing as well.
18:44 Speaker 00 That was part of the healing journey for me was losing my anger. I carried anger for my dad for so many years. Anger, hated him, hated him. And I got to the point of like, real, true acceptance. Like, when you release the energy, trauma's like negative energy that you carry. It's a negative interaction and you carry the negative energy as a result of that. The more you release it, the more you you become. Right? The more you release energy that's not yours, the more you you become. It enabled me to kind of like have compassion for him, like, that was you.
19:26 Lewis Howes? Yes.
19:27 Speaker 00 You, that was your struggle. It wasn't about me, you know? I was affected by it. And I was able to kind of really accept him for who he is, as opposed to hold on to the hate. Because the hate was eaten away at me.
19:45 Speaker 00 Not so much him, he wasn't carrying it. I mean, he was affected by it for sure.
19:49 Lewis Howes? Right.
19:49 Speaker 00 So to have, the healing allows you to hold the other person for who they are more with acceptance.
19:59 Lewis Howes? All the parts of them.
20:00 Speaker 00 All the parts of them.
20:02 Lewis Howes? You may not like certain parts and may need to create boundaries and communicate. This doesn't work for me, mom and dad.
20:08 Speaker 00 That's right.
20:08 Lewis Howes? And so I'm going to create a boundary here. I'm not going to show up to these types of functions. Or when you scream or get loud, I'm going to remove myself from the situation or whatever it might be.
20:17 Speaker 00 That's right.
20:17 Lewis Howes? You got to step up for you.
20:18 Speaker 00 Yeah.
20:19 Lewis Howes? But you can still love the other parts of them.
20:21 Speaker 00 That's right. Hundred percent.
20:23 Lewis Howes? Man, this is fascinating. You know, one of the things that you've been a part of for, I guess, thirty years is the Body Keeps the Score research.
20:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
20:32 Lewis Howes? And you were talking about energy, trauma being this energy that's stored inside of us.
20:37 Speaker 00 Yes, that's right.
20:39 Lewis Howes? Why does the body keep the score? What does that mean? And how do we actually start to release trauma?
20:45 Speaker 00 Yeah.
20:45 Lewis Howes? So that the energy gets out of our body?
20:49 Speaker 00 Yeah.
20:49 Lewis Howes? And we can become more whole?
20:51 Speaker 00 Yeah. That's one of my, that's probably, separate from bringing trauma healing to the world, which is the big mess, the big purpose, that's not my purpose, that's somebody else's purpose. Okay, I'm just a messenger for that. So there's the big purpose of bringing trauma healing to the world. My purpose is showing people that healing is possible. Like you don't have to carry stuff that isn't yours and doesn't belong to you. You don't. And that's, so some therapies do that and some therapies don't. Okay? So when you acknowledge, okay, I'm carrying stuff that isn't mine, there is a process. You know, and it was, Bassel's book, The Body Keeps the Score, is not coincidental
21:35 Speaker 00 that it's been on the New York Times Bestseller list more than any other book because people resonate with it. During the pandemic, people were sitting home, making bread and reading Bassel's book. Let me tell you. They would, you know, so really, and because it's resonating with people, the message is real. What I, the way I think about it is, trauma is held in the body, thoughts, feelings, physical sensations. So the thoughts, like, I'm worthless, I'm no good, I'm a piece of crap. Like, we internalize.
22:07 Speaker 00 The view of somebody else. If you're yelled at, you worthless piece of crap, you you internalize that I'm a worthless piece of crap. So we internalize thoughts, emotions, you know, trauma is overwhelming emotions and our bodies, the first recipient of it like our body holds that stuff. So the body keeps a score is such a great title for vessel because the body does keep the score, but it's in all these different dimensions. Any sensory modality, you can hear something, you could see it, you can feel it, you can smell it, you know, our body takes it in sensory.
22:46 Lewis Howes? And it could trigger you.
22:47 Speaker 00 And it holds well, we hold it. We hold it. Right. And we hold it. And then we develop all these protections to keep it away. And I know what I like to teach in this crossover ways, you can release it also. There is a way to release it.
23:03 Lewis Howes? How do you release it of of feelings, thoughts and emotions that have been stored in your body for decades? How do we let those things go that have been so conditioned?
23:12 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:13 Lewis Howes? As a familiar habit.
23:16 Speaker 00 Pattern.
23:16 Lewis Howes? That has become who we are almost. We've owned the identity.
23:20 Speaker 00 Hundred percent.
23:20 Lewis Howes? How do we change decades of an identity and release?
23:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, I have what I call now, you know, there's models of psychotherapy that I'm kind of integrated. And now in this new world, I'm like the four Ts to trauma healing. Okay, so I have the four Ts to trauma healing and I'll explain them to you right now. First, and we talked about the first one, thank your trauma responses. Right?
23:44 Lewis Howes? The protective responses.
23:45 Speaker 00 Protective responses, the drinking, the eating, the yelling at your kids, suicidality, the depression.
23:52 Lewis Howes? Thank you.
23:52 Speaker 00 The anxiety. Thank you. Like, think about suicide for a minute. Suicide doesn't, suicidal part doesn't want to die. They want to stop the pain.
24:04 Lewis Howes? Yes, they want to get rid of the pain.
24:06 Speaker 00 I'm the last responder, they say. If it gets bad enough, I can protect us by stopping the pain.
24:14 Lewis Howes? Wow.
24:14 Speaker 00 Okay, so, thank your, thank your protective responses. Thank your trauma responses. Thank you for trying to help.
24:24 Lewis Howes? Would those be called symptoms or just responses?
24:26 Speaker 00 Totally, if you're in the mental health field, you call them symptoms.
24:29 Lewis Howes? Got it.
24:29 Speaker 00 You know, if you're in the coaching world or whatever, you'll call them responses, right? Everybody calls them, but it's the same thing.
24:34 Lewis Howes? Okay.
24:35 Speaker 00 All the diagnoses are trauma responses, really.
24:38 Lewis Howes? So thank them, acknowledge them.
24:40 Speaker 00 And thank them. And you know what they say?
24:42 Lewis Howes? How do we thank that?
24:43 Speaker 00 Internally, it's all, this is like meditation.
24:47 Lewis Howes? If someone has a thought, if someone has a thought of like, I want to kill myself today. I, I'm a worthless piece of crap. No one loves me. Look at all these evidence of how I've been abused and neglected and taken advantage of my entire life. No one will care if I die. What's the process? How do we thank that?
25:04 Speaker 00 Tell me more. It's a curiosity. Tell me more. I know you're doing this for a reason and I know it's helpful. I want to learn more. It's this active listening. When I say thank your trauma responses.
25:16 Lewis Howes? Internal, active listening.
25:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, and it can be like, close your eyes and go inside, which people hate to do, by the way. Like, everybody's on their phones, you know? But you can write. You can sit with yourself for five minutes, right? It's go inside. And it's weird, people like, I'll do this with trauma survivors, people I work with, go inside. Okay, they pop out with, like, that was two seconds. Let's do four. You know, and get people, if you just stop, there's so much about stopping and listening, which is scary for people.
25:52 Lewis Howes? Mm-hmm.
25:53 Speaker 00 Stopping and listening, they're like, I just feel nauseous. Like, okay, let's be with the nausea. Because parts can show up in any, any physical sensation and I'm just hearing you loser. All right, let's just be with, I hear, let's just be with you're a loser. Let's just get curious about it. And how long has it been doing this? And how is it trying to help? It says, "Dad called me a loser. If I call myself a loser, then I can beat him to the punch." Oh, okay. Let it know you get that. So people, right? People start going, "Wow." That's what they do. They're like, "Wow.
26:35 Speaker 00 So this thing that I've hated is actually helping?" Trying to help.
26:40 Lewis Howes? It's trying to help. It's a false sense of helping, right?
26:42 Speaker 00 Yeah.
26:43 Lewis Howes? But it's doing the best it can do.
26:44 Speaker 00 Yes, exactly. So that's the first piece. Thank your trauma responses and appreciate them. Second is trust that you have what you need inside to heal. You don't need to go to... You don't need gurus. You don't need other people to tell you what's right for you. But we've learned to not listen to our gut. We've learned to not listen to our authentic self. So I want to bring people back to trusting that. That little voice inside that's like, not, "I hate you. You're no good." Those are the protectors. The, "I knew this relationship wasn't right. I knew there was something wrong here." It's like learning how to differentiate, listening to your gut,
27:29 Speaker 00 listening to your intuition. Reclaiming that relationship with your wisdom. Right? You can feel the difference. Like, "You're..." Or, "You're a jerk" feels a different energy than, "This isn't right."
27:44 Lewis Howes? But you know, as a six, eight, 10-year-old, how do you have wisdom that you can tap into?
27:50 Speaker 00 They do. Those kids have wisdom. Raising my kids, like, when my husband would lose it, for whatever reason, I'm not saying... I'm not blaming him, because I certainly have lost it too. But I'm just, when he loses it, they look at me like, "That's crazy." Kids know normal behavior. They do. So they have that wisdom too. The IFS model believes we're born with it. We're born with that wisdom and we learn not to listen because of life.
28:16 Lewis Howes? Got you.
28:17 Speaker 00 Right?
28:18 Lewis Howes? Because of programming or rules or society or...
28:20 Speaker 00 Shut up, shut down, disconnect, disconnect. So we all have it, let's reconnect with it. That's the second step. Trust that you have in you. Then there's this transform. This is where the healing comes in, Lewis. The transform, what doesn't serve you and doesn't belong to you. There are three steps to this. This is where the real healing of trauma comes in. And a lot of this is rooted in the models of psychotherapy that I've trained in and neuroscience knowledge, okay? Memory reconsolidation is a type of neuroscience. It rewires our neural networks.
28:56 Lewis Howes? What are those three steps?
28:58 Speaker 00 You need to witness the experience or share the story. And it's not just the words. It's the, you know, the part that holds the trauma needs to share what it's holding internally with me or with my therapist or with my partner or with a friend.
29:18 Lewis Howes? You need to speak it out.
29:20 Speaker 00 And it's not just the story. It's the thoughts, the feelings and the physical sensations. I was terrified. I thought I was gonna die. Like, so the...
29:28 Lewis Howes? It was humiliating. I had shame. I had insecurity.
29:32 Speaker 00 Sharing it is the first step because the part holds it all by itself.
29:39 Lewis Howes? The body, you mean?
29:40 Speaker 00 The part that holds the trauma. Once it shares it, it's like, oh, I'm not the only one holding this. Or I don't have to be the only one that holds it. So the first piece is share the whole experience. Not relive it, be with it. It's a big difference because we don't want people to relive their trauma.
30:01 Lewis Howes? Not to re-traumatize themselves.
30:03 Speaker 00 That's right. It's not about re-traumatizing, it's sharing.
30:07 Lewis Howes? Say it again, not be with it?
30:08 Speaker 00 It's be with it, not in it. So we don't want people to relive it. We want them to share the experience with someone, you know, with a loved one, with a therapist. So, and then this happened, and then this happened. And it felt like this and my body felt gross or I was all tensed up. Anything else, anything else. So once the experience is shared... Then we want-
30:34 Lewis Howes? That's step one.
30:35 Speaker 00 That's step one of transform, okay? Second is, we want a corrective experience.
30:42 Lewis Howes? What does that look like?
30:43 Speaker 00 Neuroscience knowledge tells us, we want to disconfirm the trauma. So, I'm loved, I'm seen, I'm acknowledged, I'm important. Whatever this trauma is, we want a corrective experience.
31:03 Lewis Howes? If someone watching or listening is thinking, "That sounds great Frank, but I don't have, I can't find evidence that I'm loved. I can't find evidence that I'm worthy, that I'm, you know, thought of."
31:19 Speaker 00 But here's-
31:20 Lewis Howes? Considered.
31:21 Speaker 00 When the part says, "I'm no good, I'm unworthy, I'm not lovable," either the self says, "I love you." Like, I can see that little boy that was six years old, I'm like, "I love him." So the corrective experience can happen internally. My adult now can say, "You should have never gone through that. That was horrible."
31:45 Lewis Howes? But if you've never learned how to love yourself, how do you tap into that love?
31:49 Speaker 00 That's the trust. We all have it. We all have it.
31:52 Lewis Howes? Got it.
31:52 Speaker 00 Now, it also can come from somebody else. It can come from you to me. Like Frank, I've known you for 10 years, I love you. You are, you know, and you're really talking to the wounded part.
32:04 Lewis Howes? Yes.
32:04 Speaker 00 You're not talking to me, you're talking to the wounded part. So it can be somebody, you know, it can be, trauma heals in connection.
32:12 Lewis Howes? Yes.
32:13 Speaker 00 Because trauma is a violation of a relationship.
32:15 Lewis Howes? Say that again?
32:18 Speaker 00 Trauma is a violation of a relationship.
32:21 Lewis Howes? Is it a relationship with others or with self?
32:23 Speaker 00 Both. Both. We disconnect from ourself to survive, and other people we disconnect from to protect ourselves, okay?
32:33 Lewis Howes? Wow.
32:33 Speaker 00 Okay? So, this corrective experience is a relational repair.
32:40 Speaker 00 It's a relational repair.
32:41 Lewis Howes? Even if the person's not there.
32:42 Speaker 00 Even if the person's not there, it can happen with somebody else. That's what therapy.
32:46 Lewis Howes? Yes.
32:47 Speaker 00 Ideally, it's supposed to be a therapist saying, you know, or ideally, it's the self. Like, I'm here now. I'm an adult. I heard what happened. You shared it. I love you. I care about you. And the part receives that.
33:00 Lewis Howes? Yes.
33:00 Speaker 00 Or from, I've had corrective experiences with my kids.
33:04 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
33:04 Speaker 00 When they've seen me in a way that I've never been seen before. Like, we have children to grow ourselves also, right? So you get that corrective experience. So once you've shared it, once you've had some form of corrective experience, and you can feel those moments, they're like, ah. You've had a couple of them here. I've felt it from you when you're going, like, your body relaxes. You go like, oh, man. When something lands, that's a corrective experience.
33:32 Lewis Howes? Got it.
33:32 Speaker 00 It hits differently.
33:33 Lewis Howes? Okay.
33:34 Speaker 00 And it feels different, right? So we have, when that part that was traumatized shares its experience, then it has a corrective experience. Then it's like, I don't need to carry this anymore. I got what I needed. And somebody else knows it. So that's where release is possible.
33:51 Lewis Howes? Wow. Is that step three?
33:52 Speaker 00 Three. Step three in the transform, then release is possible. And I say to people, like, let it, let the part, let it go in any way it wants to. And sometimes people's bodies literally shake. Sometimes they're like, oh my, it's just floating up into the sky. It's just like the energy, it's an energy release.
34:13 Lewis Howes? Yeah. I mean, for me, this has resonated with me because I feel like I've had a few of those energy releases in big ways over the last 10, 11 years.
34:22 Speaker 00 That's right.
34:23 Lewis Howes? The first time when I opened up about being sexually abused when I was a child by a man that I didn't know.
34:28 Speaker 00 Yeah.
34:29 Lewis Howes? And held on to it for 25 years without anyone knowing.
34:33 Speaker 00 That's right.
34:33 Lewis Howes? And I let it go. It was like this release, right? A few years ago, three and a half years ago, I was going through a challenging breakup.
34:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
34:43 Lewis Howes? And I remember, and I was doing therapy for, I don't know, six months with it. Intensive, like five, six hours on a weekend, like, you know, experiential, just like diving into all the parts of me that were blocking my ability to love self.
34:58 Speaker 00 Yes.
34:58 Lewis Howes? And create boundaries.
34:59 Speaker 00 That's right. That's right.
35:00 Lewis Howes? And I kind of had this heart pain for years, a few years. I was coming and going.
35:05 Speaker 00 That's right. Yeah.
35:06 Lewis Howes? In this relationship, kind of a tension and a ball feeling of pain in my chest.
35:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
35:11 Lewis Howes? Sometimes palpitations, sometimes it wasn't there, but I remember feeling it in this one conversation with my therapist.
35:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
35:18 Lewis Howes? And something all of a sudden clicked in my body.
35:22 Speaker 00 That's right.
35:23 Lewis Howes? It's like something, and it felt like a pop and it like released throughout my body.
35:27 Speaker 00 A hundred percent.
35:28 Lewis Howes? It was the weirdest sensation.
35:29 Speaker 00 That's right.
35:30 Lewis Howes? And I haven't felt that pain.
35:31 Speaker 00 That's right.
35:32 Lewis Howes? Since that moment of release of corrective experience and sharing it and witnessing it. And it's so freeing to let go of trauma.
35:42 Speaker 00 It's amazing.
35:44 Lewis Howes? Freeing.
35:45 Speaker 00 Isn't it? Yeah. Like, because when, and I get chill, like as you say that, I could feel it from you and I'm feeling it from myself. I get chills throughout my body because there's nothing like, that's how you become you again. You don't change, you're not become somebody else. When you release.
36:02 Lewis Howes? You reclaim yourself.
36:03 Speaker 00 You reclaim yourself in this amazing way. You do. It's true. And I love that you've, you've had those moments like serendipitously because of the work you're doing. I'm saying there's a method here.
36:14 Lewis Howes? Yes.
36:14 Speaker 00 If you do, and I'm always watching those three, I'm making sure those three are happening, even if we're in a conversation. So it can happen. I want the world to know this can happen for you too. It does, you don't have to do thirty-three years of therapy like I did. Like I'm a therapy lifer, right? It can happen. Like this is the method. These are the steps. That transformation, you feel it, it's real, and you don't carry it anymore. You don't carry it anymore. It's like, you're like walking, it's like people who have taken antidepressants when they kick in, they're like, I'm different. I'm not depressed anymore. Like, it's kind of like that. When you release that trauma, you're like, I'm not in the world the same way anymore. Right? So that, that happens.
36:58 Speaker 00 So those are those three steps that, that need to happen for healing to occur.
37:05 Lewis Howes? Hmm.
37:05 Speaker 00 Right? The last of my four Ts is now take back your power.
37:10 Lewis Howes? Mm-hmm.
37:11 Speaker 00 This is take back your power, become you. You, you're more you every time you release something. And this is something I love to talk about, which was totally new for me, Louis, around the death of my dad and the healing that I did with him. I told you earlier about my mom and the, like, this healing moment I had with her when she acknowledged what happened and she didn't protect me. Towards the end of my dad's life, he said something to me, and I'm not gonna say what it is because it's like the big, it's like the moment in the book where it's like, oh, my God. It was an incredible moment. What a gift for me to have this exchange with him. It was the first time I felt love from him.
37:52 Lewis Howes? Wow.
37:54 Speaker 00 And I felt love for him.
37:55 Lewis Howes? Holy cow.
37:56 Speaker 00 It was incredible. First time. And this was two years ago. Okay?
38:01 Lewis Howes? Not everyone gets this moment, though.
38:03 Speaker 00 No, I was such a gift. I was like, I think that's why I'm here. And I think that's why I went through this is because many people don't get that. You can still release without having the relational correction with the person.
38:17 Lewis Howes? Yes.
38:17 Speaker 00 You can. You don't have to do it with the person. I happen to be lucky enough to do it with him, to have that. And I felt love for him, even after all that he had done to me. I felt love. And it was amazing. Talk about freeing, to feel love for someone who was brutal to you.
38:39 Lewis Howes? Hmm.
38:39 Speaker 00 It's like, it was the most freeing thing I ever felt. It's like, that, that didn't even affect me because I, I can love someone who harmed me is so powerful. It was like a drug to me because I was so beyond it that even what you did doesn't affect me anymore because I can love you despite of that.
39:02 Lewis Howes? Is there ever power in not loving someone who hurt you or abused you as opposed to saying, well, they sexually abused me and they manipulated me and they gaslighted me for decades of my life and they... Really psychologically messed with me for 20, 30 years. I'm just gonna love them, accept them for who they are and just, you know, not stand up for myself. Like, is there?
39:21 Speaker 00 Here's the thing. I love that you're asking that question because it's so controversial. And I know you had somebody on recently who has a different view on that. I'm gonna be meeting with her soon. We're gonna have, we're gonna do an event together.
39:32 Lewis Howes? Yes.
39:32 Speaker 00 Okay. Because Dr. Ramani, she just has a different view about this. And I love that we're gonna have a conversation about it. Because differences are really important and useful.
39:42 Lewis Howes? Yes.
39:42 Speaker 00 Okay. We don't need to, we don't need to stay in the us and them of things. Because we'll never heal that way. We will never heal. It's the and, 100%. So I think there are people that don't want to, and they don't have to. It's not a requirement. You're, this, this piece that I'm talking about is, is loving. And it's not like, oh, no big deal. It's when you've truly healed, you're not carrying it anymore.
40:09 Lewis Howes? Yes.
40:10 Speaker 00 Okay. So it feels different. And forgiveness, if I use the F-word, forgiveness, because people get really activated by that word, is a choice. And the thing that people don't understand, and I didn't get it until a couple of years ago, is the forgiveness was me releasing what I was carrying about my father.
40:30 Lewis Howes? It's not forgiving his behavior.
40:32 Speaker 00 No, it's not condoning. It was, I'm not carrying the stuff about him anymore. Forgiveness was more about me than it was about him.
40:42 Lewis Howes? Wow.
40:43 Speaker 00 People still have a choice to do it. You know, Oprah talks about this, forgiveness. And Tyler Perry talks about this too, with all the trauma that he's gone through. So it's, if you choose to, it's more for you. And if you don't want to, you don't have to. Some people are like, it was too brutal, it was too painful, I'm choosing not to forgive. And I'm like, that's okay. It's whatever works for you. I was lucky to have this experience that I never thought I would have, to be able to love someone. I never thought I would love somebody who harmed me. And the thing that was even a weirder bonus was I started forgiving myself
41:25 Speaker 00 for all that I had done, to my kids, to my husband, to myself. So my loving him...
41:36 Speaker 00 Still knowing what he did, not forgetting that, allowed me to love myself differently.
41:43 Lewis Howes? Interesting.
41:43 Speaker 00 Because who hasn't harmed or been harmed?
41:49 Lewis Howes? Right.
41:51 Speaker 00 This is the us and them piece that I have a mission to kind of get rid of. I know that's a big mission. I get these, I get, I hear voices, let me say that. I hear voices a lot. It's like, love, compassion, love, connection, unity. Love, connection, unity. Bring trauma healing to the world. I'm like, shut up. It was like, stop, you know? Unity kept coming up and I didn't want unity to come up. I was like, oh, that's a hard one. The divide of us and them, and the message was like, unity, unity. So this was where-
42:26 Lewis Howes? The divide is safer, right?
42:28 Speaker 00 It's so much easier. Wouldn't you rather be on one side and blame somebody else of the other? So much easier.
42:36 Lewis Howes? Wow.
42:36 Speaker 00 But now I'm free because I've forgiven myself for staying too long in relationships.
42:42 Lewis Howes? Right.
42:43 Speaker 00 For, right?
42:44 Lewis Howes? Guilty of that.
42:45 Speaker 00 Right? But, but so if you choose to forgive, you release what you're caring about the other person, but it gives you an opportunity to kind of release what you're caring about yourself.
42:57 Lewis Howes? I saw this quote of yours.
42:58 Speaker 00 Yes.
42:58 Lewis Howes? It said, "Trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma."
43:02 Speaker 00 Yep.
43:02 Lewis Howes? "Trauma activates an internal cascade of reactions that blocks love, connection, and creativity. And in turn, love has the power to transcend trauma, heal our pain, and reconnect us to our self, capital S, our source and to each other." How can we? Is it possible for us to truly love ourselves and others if we're holding on to traumas?
43:31 Speaker 00 I'm gonna say, we're not gonna use all or nothing.
43:35 Lewis Howes? Uh huh.
43:36 Speaker 00 And it's all degrees. Okay. I am so much further along in this process than I was 20 years ago. Was I able to do 40% of that 20 years ago? Probably. Can I do 85, 90% now? Yeah. Am I 100%? Probably not, ever. Right? So yeah, that, that statement, like when I hear that, I was like, oh my God, that's so powerful. Like, thank you for sharing it with me. I kind of feel like it's channeled information, honestly. And I've lived it. And I've spent my whole career studying it. So yes, I think that's entirely possible. I do believe it. I believe it wholeheartedly. That's why, that's why I'm on this mission. I'm on this mission and I, I'm not the only one on this mission.
44:20 Speaker 00 That I'm very clear about. You're on this mission. There's so many, we're coming together in a different way. There's all, all these people are coming out of the woodwork. Like the people in, in the ivory tower are showing up in general public. We talked about this early, you know, the influencers are showing up and coming, you know, these motivational speakers are coming together in this way. Cause I think it's a collective. I think it's a collective to do this.
44:45 Lewis Howes? Yes.
44:46 Speaker 00 And I think it's, I really do think it's possible and I'm not doing it alone. Tell you that, but I'm one of the people. And so are you that are doing this.
44:54 Lewis Howes? Yes.
44:55 Speaker 00 I think it's totally possible and I think that's what's gonna heal.
44:58 Lewis Howes? What do you think it takes for someone to truly love themselves?
45:01 Speaker 00 Is releasing the stuff that blocks that. That's the, the trauma blocks love, love heals trauma. Every time I wrote, I was, I wrote transcending trauma, my other book during the pandemic. And I'd write, write, write, write, write, go for a run, right? Go for a run. I'm like such a runner. And I hear, trauma blocks love, love heals trauma, trauma blocks love, love heals trauma. I'm like, that is the truth. Because every time I release-
45:23 Lewis Howes? How do you, how do you love yourself if you're blocked by trauma? How do you get rid of the trauma?
45:28 Speaker 00 It's this cycle. It's the cycle. It's going through the four Ts that I talked about. It's going through that. And each time you release something, you've got more capacity. In the beginning, right? Each time you release it.
45:41 Lewis Howes? Expand your abilities.
45:42 Speaker 00 You expand your ability. And it's like this cumulative thing. It doesn't happen all at once. It's not like a Hollywood moment. It happens cumulatively. And early on, when you're super blocked, if you can find some loving connection. Cause you can help. It's not your responsibility to heal me, but your loving me helps me heal myself. Because love is contagious. So if you are in a loving environment, you can access yours and utilize somebody else's. Right? So.
46:18 Lewis Howes? Just as love is contagious, so is hate.
46:20 Speaker 00 Hundred percent. Yes, it is.
46:22 Lewis Howes? And that's why you gotta really protect your energy and your relationship with people. And do your best to shift conversations, move away from those conversations. And not get caught in that cycle of anger and hate as well.
46:34 Speaker 00 That's right. It's moments. Like, life happens in moments? And so does trauma healing happen in moments? Doesn't happen.
46:44 Lewis Howes? Here's something that, you know, I've heard people talk about. It's like, okay, if you've had traumatic experiences and you're a lifelong, you know, in therapy and psychiatrist, like you've been in this work for every daily for thirty plus years or whatever. How does someone continue to release without reliving and resharing the traumatic experiences? So that it affects them so much? Some people say, quit reliving it and resharing it all the time. Therapy doesn't work if you're always in therapy, reliving it and you're not getting release and freedom, then it must not be working.
47:19 Speaker 00 That's right.
47:20 Lewis Howes? So how do we communicate it? Without being stuck in this? Well, I've been there for ten years. Then why are you still stuck and angry and resentful?
47:27 Speaker 00 That's right. And there's a lot of bad, there's a lot of therapies that are not trauma healing therapies. I was in, I told you. Eleven, eleven years, five times a week during my residency. That was a lot, a big amount of therapy. But it was, it was the talking, telling the story without release.
47:49 Lewis Howes? Interesting.
47:50 Speaker 00 Okay.
47:50 Lewis Howes? It's a lot of therapy, not release.
47:52 Speaker 00 I knew all about it, I understood it. I was stronger. Yeah, I figured it out. I was stronger, but I was still carrying it in my body.
48:02 Lewis Howes? Interesting.
48:03 Speaker 00 Yeah. So not all therapies have those qualities of release. That's why that transform thing I talked about, so important. Now, IFS is not the only therapy that does that. EMDR can do it. Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.
48:19 Lewis Howes? I've heard great things about that, but I've also, I mean, what's the difference between IFS and EMDR? And if you were, if someone is experiencing trauma in their life, what would you recommend first?
48:28 Speaker 00 Here's the thing. So there's sensory motorcycle therapy, there's Peter Levine somatic experiencing. There's a lot of different ABC, you know, everybody's got their initials. IFS, you know, EMDR.
48:40 Lewis Howes? They've got their methods.
48:41 Speaker 00 They've got their method. There's probably six or eight trauma methods.
48:44 Lewis Howes? Huh.
48:45 Speaker 00 Okay. And nobody knows this, when you go to therapy, you don't know. There's trauma methods and those should have a release component. Like psychoanalytic therapy that I was in, didn't have, at that point, a release component. So I processed it without releasing it. Okay. So.
49:03 Lewis Howes? So you weren't getting the full benefit of results?
49:05 Speaker 00 I was better in a lot of ways. I was able to come out, you know, I, you know, they did stuff. My life got better, but I was still carrying it.
49:12 Lewis Howes? You were still holding on to, the body was still keeping the score.
49:15 Speaker 00 The body was still keeping the score, a hundred percent. Yes.
49:18 Lewis Howes? Interesting.
49:18 Speaker 00 Yeah, it was. So I, I want to teach people that there is a way to do this. And it's not just telling the story. It's not just reliving it over and over again. And a lot of people do that. Right? It is, there are these certain qualities. I started this year called the Trauma Institute.
49:36 Lewis Howes? Mm-hmm.
49:37 Speaker 00 Okay? And it's an integrative center for bringing all the trauma modalities together.
49:44 Speaker 00 Integratively bringing trauma healing to the next generation of therapists and to the general public. It's a mission for me. It's like, I don't think one model's the right model. Everybody needs different things at different times. So let's pull this resource together. A lot of my friends and colleagues have made these models. And I'm like thankful for them to have made them. Thank you, Dick Schwartz, who made IFS. Thank you, Pat Ogden, who made sensory motorcycle therapy. Thank you, Gabor Maté, who makes Compassionate Inquirer. Bessel van der Kolk brings neuroscience. Dan Siegel, like all of them. Amazing things. Like, it's time to put it together in an integrative way. And that's what I hope for the Trauma Institute.
50:28 Lewis Howes? What is the core thesis of IFS?
50:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
50:32 Lewis Howes? And why is that something that you study and teach so frequently?
50:37 Speaker 00 Yeah, it was, like I said, I was in therapy a long time in a lot of different modalities. Did EMDR, I did sensory motorcycle therapy. IFS was different for me. First, because I grew up in a big Italian family and everything was about the group.
50:55 Lewis Howes? The family.
50:55 Speaker 00 Never about the individual.
50:57 Lewis Howes? Interesting. I'm sure a lot of people can relate to that.
50:59 Speaker 00 Right, right. And a lot of ethnic groups are like that. Not only Italian.
51:04 Lewis Howes? About the group, the culture, and not the individual.
51:06 Speaker 00 The individual doesn't matter, the group matters, the family matters. So I grew up there and it was so amazing for IFS to say, go inside. You have self and you can access that to heal. So it was really powerful for me to reclaim me. So IFS says, we all have self-energy. We're born with it and it has inherent wisdom. We all have parts too. All different parts of us are normal.
51:36 Lewis Howes? How many parts of us do we have?
51:38 Speaker 00 It's, you know, I have a part that likes to run. I have a part that likes to travel. We have a lot of different parts. We have a lot of different parts.
51:44 Lewis Howes? And there's positive parts and kind of wounded parts?
51:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, I love that you didn't say negative parts. Ooh, because everybody's like, bad parts, you know? I worked, there's no bad parts. Dick's book, No Bad Parts, right? There's no bad parts. We look at the positive intention. So some parts protect, some parts carry pain, right? I have a part that's a therapist. I have a part that... You know, gets really stressed out and anxious, you know. So we.
52:11 Lewis Howes? What are the parts that protect? What are they actually doing inside of us?
52:16 Speaker 00 Well, they're doing these behaviors and symptoms. Drinking too much, over exercising.
52:21 Lewis Howes? Overworking.
52:21 Speaker 00 Over, yeah, overworking.
52:24 Lewis Howes? Reactive, angry, resentful.
52:26 Speaker 00 Yeah.
52:27 Lewis Howes? Protective.
52:28 Speaker 00 Yeah. They're beef. And the only reason they take on those extreme roles is because of something overwhelming.
52:36 Lewis Howes? Is it a sense of control? Is it a sense of protection? What is the thing?
52:40 Speaker 00 Control and protection, yeah. Control and protection.
52:42 Lewis Howes? What, when we say, when we do something obsessive or a particular way that we want to make sure it's done this way.
52:50 Speaker 00 Yeah.
52:50 Lewis Howes? It seems controlling.
52:51 Speaker 00 Yes.
52:51 Lewis Howes? What is that saying about us?
52:53 Speaker 00 It's saying, what it tells me about us is that I grew up in a controlling environment.
53:00 Lewis Howes? In a controlling environment.
53:02 Speaker 00 I grew up in a controlling environment and I in turn, I internalize control as a way to help.
53:11 Speaker 00 That's what it says.
53:12 Lewis Howes? So it's they, so someone thinking they're being helpful.
53:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
53:15 Lewis Howes? By being controlling.
53:16 Speaker 00 The part, it's like, like the part, like critic, let's talk about critics. Like who doesn't have an internal critic in some way? It's because you were yelled at or criticized. And then you're like, look how effective that is. I was the recipient of that criticism. I see how powerful it is. And then some part of us says, oh, I'm going to use that to control the kid in here who keeps crying. Because if he shuts up, then I won't get yelled at.
53:45 Lewis Howes? Wow.
53:46 Speaker 00 Do you see that?
53:46 Lewis Howes? So I'll suppress my feelings, my emotions.
53:49 Speaker 00 I'll do it. Shut up, you idiot. Shut up, you jerk. If you shut, if you're quiet, we won't get yelled at. So we use what's in our environment protectively. And if we understand that, then it's a different relationship with the critic. Not hate your critic, get rid of it. Don't be critical anymore. Like who's ever stopped drinking because you just said? And for those of you who are old enough, like Nancy Reagan, just say no to drugs. Like, doesn't work. It doesn't work, you know? It's like, no, it's like, oh, where did you learn that? How is it helping? Ah, okay, I get it. Are you interested in helping in a different way? Right? Would you be, you want to work together here? We can team up and do it differently.
54:33 Speaker 00 Because these parts don't like the way they do things. They were forced to use what was in their environment.
54:43 Lewis Howes? It's just a part of the tools that they know.
54:45 Speaker 00 That they had access to.
54:47 Lewis Howes? Yeah, yeah.
54:47 Speaker 00 And when we're young and we come up with tools like kids aren't good at raising themselves.
54:53 Speaker 00 Okay, but that's what they do, right? They need to.
54:56 Lewis Howes? Sometimes they raise their parents.
54:57 Speaker 00 Sometimes they raise their parents.
54:59 Lewis Howes? Isn't that fascinating?
55:00 Speaker 00 Yep.
55:01 Lewis Howes? What happens to someone who is maybe the oldest sibling? That has to take care of their mom or father's emotions? Or lack of control or bad behavior? Or they need to go work at an early age to support the parent? What happens to that type of person who experiences that in their life?
55:20 Speaker 00 Yeah, so they become a Harvard-trained psychiatrist. That's one of the things they do. Like, I was such a parentified child.
55:29 Lewis Howes? Really?
55:29 Speaker 00 I was such a parentified child. I took care of my siblings, I took care of my mother. I was trying to manage my father. You know, like, so they become therapists, they become healthcare workers. Like, when you learn that you have to caretake as a way of protection? Like, if I manage.
55:48 Lewis Howes? To survive.
55:49 Speaker 00 Then if I manage you and you're drinking, then you'll maybe take care of me?
55:55 Lewis Howes? Oh, man. But that never happens.
55:57 Speaker 00 It doesn't happen, but it's.
55:58 Lewis Howes? You're searching for that.
55:59 Speaker 00 But it's like, you're searching for, right? So if I take care of everybody, maybe I'll be loved.
56:05 Lewis Howes? Oh, man.
56:06 Speaker 00 So I become a consummate caretaker. Like, huge, right? We have a lot of caretakers in this world, in culture and society. And like ER doctors, like, there's so many places where people caretake.
56:23 Speaker 00 In an attempt, first of all, to focus on somebody else instead of themselves. And secondly, and an attempt, you're gonna like me and love me and then, then I'll get what I need. If I take care of you, I might get what I need in return.
56:37 Lewis Howes? So intentions are, are, it sounds good of like, I wanna be of service, which is a great thing and a great intention. But when it's, I need to be in service to someone, because then maybe I'll get love.
56:47 Speaker 00 That's right. That's right.
56:48 Lewis Howes? Then you just keep doing, you're chasing love.
56:51 Speaker 00 Hundred percent. That's why it's called To Be Loved. Like, that was my whole life. That's why that title was so perfect. If I, if I'm of service from self, it's not about me. It's about a bigger cause. I'm here to help from a different place.
57:08 Lewis Howes? What is self versus what?
57:10 Speaker 00 Being of service versus trying to get something. Parts have an intention of protection, and that's the difference. There's a difference between, I really do love helping people when I have to in order to get worth. It's a different story.
57:32 Lewis Howes? Ooh, then there's like resentment and frustration.
57:34 Speaker 00 And anger, and then that's when you lose it on somebody like, you know, after all, but parents do this to kids.
57:39 Lewis Howes? You don't appreciate me for all I've done.
57:41 Speaker 00 You know how much I've done for you. You know how much I've done for you. Yeah, exactly.
57:44 Lewis Howes? I mean, that seems like a common theme for a lot of parents, almost be for all parents.
57:48 Speaker 00 That's right.
57:49 Lewis Howes? It's like people can resonate with that, where it's like, parents were frustrated with me because I didn't listen, or I was rambunctious, or I know I was like jumping out the walls half the time.
57:58 Speaker 00 That's right.
57:59 Lewis Howes? And you'll hear, you know, people say that my parents would say these things like, oh, after all I've done for you, you don't appreciate me, you don't, you know, you don't listen to me, you're just take advantage of me.
58:12 Speaker 00 Right.
58:13 Lewis Howes? How, that doesn't seem healthy, but what, what can parents do to realize, okay, kids are gonna be kids, and maybe it's not this perfect world every day where they're like listening to me and quiet and patient and...
58:26 Speaker 00 Well, so.
58:26 Lewis Howes? How can parents shift their energy to appreciate bringing life into the world as opposed to needing appreciation from a five-year-old?
58:35 Speaker 00 Right. So what ends up happening? And Dr. Becky is somebody who I know, I don't know if you know.
58:41 Lewis Howes? Yeah, I've had her on.
58:42 Speaker 00 I thought you've had her on.
58:43 Lewis Howes? She's great.
58:43 Speaker 00 She's so good. She gets like, she's a big I F S aligned person too. And so she, she real, her parenting stuff is so solid. I love what she has to say. And a lot of it is, parents often get activated about their kids' behavior because of their own stuff, of their history. And my message is do your work so you don't say, and I've said it, do you know how much I've done for you? I've said it. I'm, my parents said it and I used to say as a kid, I used to say as a kid, I didn't ask to be born. Like, that's what I would say to them when they would like shove this appreciation.
59:21 Lewis Howes? Wow.
59:21 Speaker 00 When I heard myself say it to my kids, I'm like, oh my God, this is horrible. Like, how painful to do what was done to your, you know? But when I looked a little deeper, like I, if my, if I behaved the way my kids were behaving, entitled and not appreciative, I would have gotten beaten. So I want to stop their behavior so it doesn't activate my own.
59:47 Lewis Howes? To want to beat them or hit them or spike them?
59:49 Speaker 00 Stop, stop doing this because it's too uncomfortable for me because it reminds me of my history.
59:55 Lewis Howes? Wow.
59:55 Speaker 00 Do you see that? And so that's the cycle that parents are in that they're not aware of. So when you start doing this stuff to your kids, and everybody does it unfortunately, then it's like, do your work. I have done more healing in my life through my children than anybody else or any other therapist. Like, they have brought this stuff to my attention. You know, I started becoming my father.
1:00:21 Lewis Howes? In the negative ways.
1:00:22 Speaker 00 In the negative.
1:00:23 Lewis Howes? In the wounded ways.
1:00:24 Speaker 00 The wounded ways. And that was, that shot me into therapy for the third time is when I had kids and I started yelling at them. And I was like, I grew up with this. The reason I had kids was to not, to, to give them something else. And here I'm doing it. And it was like when my.
1:00:41 Lewis Howes? What was inside of you that was doing it?
1:00:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, because when my boys would fight, I have two kind of rambunctious boys, when they would fight. Can remember feeling panic inside because if I yelled and screamed like that, I would have gotten beaten. So every time they fought, my history showed up.
1:01:02 Lewis Howes? Gosh.
1:01:03 Speaker 00 Instead of like, they're boys. Come on, guys. Let's behave. When you're not activated by your history, you're like, hey, you know what? We don't throw toys. If you're upset, use your words. Like, there's a way to react when you're not activated.
1:01:16 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:01:17 Speaker 00 Anytime you lose it, it's about your history. When it's intense, it's yours.
1:01:25 Lewis Howes? I think I heard, maybe it's Gabbard Mate that said, if it's hysterical, it's historical.
1:01:31 Speaker 00 That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right.
1:01:33 Lewis Howes? If it's hysterical, it's historical.
1:01:34 Speaker 00 Yes, that's correct. And people don't know that.
1:01:37 Lewis Howes? Because you're, because it's like, if you're seeing a situation, two kids running around and hitting each other, stealing something from them and screaming and yelling, and you're reactive. It's because you're triggered by an event that you haven't faced and processed fully yet.
1:01:54 Speaker 00 Correct.
1:01:54 Lewis Howes? From your past.
1:01:55 Speaker 00 Correct.
1:01:56 Lewis Howes? Otherwise, it would just be a neutral event. And if it didn't happen to you, or if it didn't trigger you, you'd just say, hey, guys, like, break this up. Or what are we doing? You know, it's like, let's get to your room and take a break.
1:02:07 Speaker 00 People don't know that, and people don't want, they're like, it frustrates me that there's so many parenting, there's so many books about kids' behavior. There's not many books about parents' behavior. Dr. Shafali's another one.
1:02:21 Lewis Howes? She's great.
1:02:21 Speaker 00 She's also very aligned in this, right? You know, she's, she's aligned.
1:02:26 Lewis Howes? Conscious parenting is powerful.
1:02:27 Speaker 00 Huge. And parents are like, these kids are blah, blah, blah, versus, oh, I've got work to do on resolved his.
1:02:35 Lewis Howes? How many parents do you think in America?
1:02:40 Lewis Howes? Repeat the patterns of their parents unconsciously and have not done the work to create new tools to parent from a conscious way.
1:02:51 Speaker 00 Well, most of us.
1:02:52 Lewis Howes? Really?
1:02:53 Speaker 00 I'm sorry, most of us. I did it. It drove me crazy to be a trauma expert. Like, I teach this for a living. People pay me money and I still did it.
1:03:03 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:03:03 Speaker 00 And it's not, it's because awareness does nothing for change.
1:03:07 Lewis Howes? Really? Awareness does nothing for change?
1:03:09 Speaker 00 It's not like that, not when it's trauma, not when it's trauma. Because it comes up inside of you and it takes you over, right? I'm like, like, I do know better. I had so much self-loathing every time I lost it with my kids.
1:03:25 Lewis Howes? Afterwards, like later that night, you're like, oh, what am I doing?
1:03:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's.
1:03:29 Lewis Howes? I'm out of integrity because I'm teaching one thing, but I'm doing the opposite.
1:03:32 Speaker 00 So painful. That's where I got suicidal in my life.
1:03:34 Lewis Howes? Really?
1:03:35 Speaker 00 That's the only times I got suicidal was when I did what was done to me. It was like, I would rather be dead.
1:03:42 Lewis Howes? Oh, my gosh.
1:03:43 Speaker 00 Than perpetuate this. I swear, that's that. It was so painful. I'm like, and people, and I couldn't help people all day long because I was, my history wasn't being activated.
1:03:54 Lewis Howes? So you could see it from a separate situation and give the best of advice in the world?
1:03:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, I know what the, I'm like do appropriate for a living. It's ridiculous. I do, and then yet I saw myself doing it. It was crazy.
1:04:07 Lewis Howes? When did you start to shift emotionally? It sounds like the body was keeping the score for you when you had children and for those years. And you would do things that were out of integrity with what you wanted your highest self to do.
1:04:19 Speaker 00 That's right. That's right.
1:04:20 Lewis Howes? And then you would beat yourself up and self-loathing and shame and guilt and resentment. And all these emotions that don't serve yourself in becoming better. So what was the process as a Harvard-trained psychiatrist and a trauma therapist for 20, 30 years? What was the process for you to get out of depression, suicidal thoughts and overwhelm?
1:04:41 Lewis Howes? To be more of peace and harmony when kids would act out.
1:04:46 Speaker 00 I just, it's so, I was like, I was like, you're on rinse and repeat, Frank. Like you just, you're on rinse and repeat. How many years of therapy? Like, I just did a keynote recently at the network where I'm like, I'm wondering if therapy is the way to go. Like, I've been in for 33 years. Like, maybe it's not the right way. But it's more about, like, this is where you get into resilience. I have been trying. I will never stop trying. I think we're here on this earth in human form to have difficult experiences.
1:05:18 Lewis Howes? People will like to hear that.
1:05:20 Speaker 00 Sorry, sorry. I think we're not only here to have difficult experiences.
1:05:23 Lewis Howes? We can have loving, fun experiences too.
1:05:25 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. But I think from a soul level, we're here to grow and evolve. And if you, I have like the three, I have my three Rs. You repeat it, you repress it, or you repair it. Okay? So I've been one of these people, I don't know why. I'm one of these people who's constantly trying to repair. Constantly trying to repair. Right? And this is what we do with every moment. We have a choice. We repress it. Most of us repress our trauma. We repeat it over and over again, or we repair it. Take advantage of those opportunities, right? And I'm a, I'm, I know, now I know. I never knew I was smart because I was criticized a lot. I'm a smart person, I know that.
1:06:10 Speaker 00 And I still did it because my history was in me. And now I don't, like, I am so, my kids are 16 and 20. And my son, my oldest, can yell and scream at me like any 20-year-old can. And I don't react anymore. I don't.
1:06:28 Lewis Howes? How did you learn how to not react? But also not get, take, you know, getting, you know, letting a boundary cross over where someone's gonna...
1:06:36 Speaker 00 You can't talk to me that way. I'm gonna walk out of this room right now. That is really not okay. I'm not gonna tolerate this. And I'm not gonna engage with you when you're like this. I couldn't do that before.
1:06:47 Lewis Howes? How did you learn to not let it boil inside of you and think this ungrateful child I've given my life to?
1:06:54 Speaker 00 I didn't learn it. I healed it. That's what I did. I tried to learn it. I tried to learn it.
1:06:59 Lewis Howes? So there's a difference between analytical understanding versus physical wisdom.
1:07:04 Speaker 00 That's right. And the physical wisdom is releasing the trauma. The physical wisdom, I don't have to try hard anymore.
1:07:12 Lewis Howes? Right.
1:07:12 Speaker 00 It's not in me. The trauma is not in me. I used to have this crazy startle. My kids, we'd have a trampoline in the backyard. One would jump on me from behind and I'd freak out because of my startle.
1:07:26 Lewis Howes? It was like a trigger, like if someone was a reaction.
1:07:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, it was like, like this. And I would say to them, like, hey, remember Papa said he was hurt when he was younger? That's why he reacts this way? Like, I didn't want them to take responsibility for my reaction, but I still had it.
1:07:41 Lewis Howes? But you didn't own it and release it.
1:07:43 Speaker 00 I couldn't, I didn't really, at that point, I didn't release it, you know? Now I don't hold startle so much anymore because it was physical. It was a physical abuse I worked on early on. And I released it. And now I, I don't hold the startle. It's funny. We watched Stranger Things with my youngest son. He loves Stranger Things. It's such a trauma. Talk about trauma.
1:08:03 Lewis Howes? It's dark. It's traumatizing.
1:08:05 Speaker 00 And my husbands jump at like a Mexican jumping bean and I wasn't. I'm like, I'm not, I don't have jump scares anymore like I used to because I released them. So it's like when you release it, you don't get activated by it anymore.
1:08:18 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:08:18 Speaker 00 So that's the, that's the point. Like, I'm not done. I'm not done. But I am, I am so much more myself than I've ever been in my life. And I can tolerate my feelings, other people's feelings so much more than I ever. Am I perfect at it? Hell, no. But every layer that you release, you're more you.
1:08:42 Lewis Howes? Yeah. And you're, you're expanding your capacity for uncomfortable emotions.
1:08:48 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:08:48 Lewis Howes? You're expanding the ability to sit with them, to witness them without being wounded by these
1:08:54 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:08:54 Lewis Howes? emotions or reactions or, or overwhelming life experiences.
1:08:58 Speaker 00 That's what I told you with my mom. I'm like, look, mom, if you decide never to see me again because this is too painful for you, I can, I'll handle that. Like that, I was like, that's right, like.
1:09:10 Lewis Howes? It's not what I want.
1:09:11 Speaker 00 No, it's not what I want, but I can tolerate that because I'm choosing me and I deserve to be listened to, prioritize, and take, I love myself.
1:09:24 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:09:25 Speaker 00 Enough.
1:09:26 Lewis Howes? My, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of people watching or listening that have probably experienced some type of challenge in family or relationships, or whatever it might be, where they have love and also frustration and hate.
1:09:38 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:09:38 Lewis Howes? With someone in their life, right?
1:09:40 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:09:40 Lewis Howes? Family member, an uncle, a father, whatever my grandparent, whatever it might be.
1:09:44 Speaker 00 We all do.
1:09:45 Lewis Howes? And my, my intention is never to break people up.
1:09:50 Speaker 00 Right.
1:09:51 Lewis Howes? To get them to leave a relationship, or end, or create a divorce, that's never my intention.
1:09:57 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:10:00 Lewis Howes? Because I believe it is powerful to be family and connected, even if there's discomfort or frustration, or someone doesn't approve of your life choices, or whatever it might be. So how can people not say, screw you, you don't understand me, you frustrate me, so I'm going to tell you that this doesn't work for me anymore, I'm gonna divorce you in this relationship, family member, friend, whatever it is. How can they cautiously communicate in a loving, appreciative way?
1:10:29 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:10:30 Lewis Howes? And create a boundary if someone doesn't want to receive that.
1:10:34 Speaker 00 So.
1:10:34 Lewis Howes? Or they're not kicking them out of their life forever.
1:10:36 Speaker 00 So the screw you, or kicking them out of your life forever, is a protector. That's a protective response.
1:10:44 Lewis Howes? It's a wounded response.
1:10:45 Speaker 00 It's, I'm wounded, so I'm gonna do, do this to you to protect myself, okay? So, and we do that all the time, and that is the reactivity, or the shutting down and disconnecting, the ghosting people and never calling back, you know, like, those are, those are setting a boundary from a protector. To protect our pain, which is very different than what I did with my mom. I'm like, I love you. I was, I was setting a boundary from self. I love you, I care about you, I want you in my life. I'll do anything I can to help you.
1:11:17 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
1:11:17 Speaker 00 If you can't join me for whatever reason, that's up to you and I will deal with the consequences of that. But I love myself and I'm choosing me over disconnection to make you feel better.
1:11:34 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:11:34 Speaker 00 Okay, so that's coming from a different place. So we set boundaries from a place of love.
1:11:40 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:11:41 Speaker 00 You know, I, I organized a funeral for my dad because I wanted to. I wanted to give him a good send off, you know? And it was from a place of love. You know, you could say no from a place of love, like this doesn't work. So I'm doing my kids now, it's like, that doesn't work for me. I'm sorry, I don't want to be yelled at. You're angry, I'm open to hearing about it, but not this way.
1:12:04 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:12:04 Speaker 00 When you're ready, let's talk.
1:12:05 Lewis Howes? You can calm down or you can talk.
1:12:06 Speaker 00 Let's talk.
1:12:06 Lewis Howes? Yeah, yeah.
1:12:07 Speaker 00 Yeah, so it's from where it comes from. So the boundary is different when it's reactive.
1:12:12 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:12:12 Speaker 00 Or shut down, because that's protective versus when it's coming from a place of love.
1:12:18 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:12:20 Lewis Howes? You know, you are the expert on trauma, one of the experts on trauma in, in the world today. It seems like a lot of people are oversharing their traumas online, right? Before, they've actually gone through the four step process and done the three things of transforming their traumas.
1:12:37 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:12:38 Lewis Howes? And it seems like this trauma dumping is happening.
1:12:40 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:12:41 Lewis Howes? Without a processing privately.
1:12:44 Speaker 00 Yep.
1:12:44 Lewis Howes? Or with a, a professional first.
1:12:48 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:12:48 Lewis Howes? What are your thoughts on people sharing their traumas online?
1:12:51 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:12:51 Lewis Howes? And should people share things that have, they've struggled with online? Is the right time to do it? Or are people oversharing too much?
1:13:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's a, it's a great, that's the downside with everybody joining up to try to help. When we all come together to try and help, not everybody's doing it from the healthiest place. Right? So that's one of the downsides. What I say to people, and even when, if you want to confront somebody who's harmed you, confront a perpetrator in any form, heal first, confront second. Heal first, confront second, because typically what you do, once you heal. You see the wound in your perpetrator. That's what typically ends up.
1:13:34 Lewis Howes? Yeah, and you can, I mean, it's hard, it's hard to hear this if you haven't. You can see the, you can have.
1:13:40 Speaker 00 Complexity.
1:13:41 Lewis Howes? Compassion for the complexity.
1:13:43 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:13:43 Lewis Howes? Of what that person was doing. It doesn't mean you agree or say they're okay.
1:13:47 Speaker 00 No, you don't agree or condone, but you can see it. Like, my dad is like, he was a wounded person. He had limitations. I could see that now.
1:13:57 Lewis Howes? And the little boy inside of me was the recipient of someone else's.
1:14:01 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:14:02 Lewis Howes? Actions.
1:14:02 Speaker 00 Hundred percent.
1:14:03 Lewis Howes? And this is not okay, and it hurt me, and it.
1:14:05 Speaker 00 Huge. All of it's true.
1:14:06 Lewis Howes? Conditioned me for many years of my life.
1:14:08 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:14:09 Lewis Howes? And it ruined parts of me.
1:14:11 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:14:11 Lewis Howes? And there was anger and.
1:14:12 Speaker 00 All true.
1:14:13 Lewis Howes? Wounds that he put me through, this conversion therapy and these things.
1:14:17 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:14:17 Lewis Howes? Caused all this pain in my life. But if you can step back and look at it, you can still see, at least I know where it's coming from.
1:14:25 Speaker 00 And it's, I don't, I don't take responsibility for it anymore. I don't hate myself about it anymore. I don't even hate him about it. It was what was happening. It's, I wouldn't be sitting across from you right now if it wasn't for him.
1:14:39 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:14:40 Speaker 00 I wouldn't be.
1:14:41 Lewis Howes? You wouldn't care about this work?
1:14:42 Speaker 00 I wouldn't be a trauma expert.
1:14:44 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
1:14:44 Speaker 00 I wouldn't be helping people. So I have gratitude now. I mean, this is a long time, this is a long time, so I'm not, I don't want people to feel bad about themselves. We're all at different stages. I've been, I'm sixty years old, I've been doing this since.
1:14:58 Lewis Howes? You're sixty?
1:14:59 Speaker 00 I'm sixty years old.
1:15:00 Lewis Howes? How is that possible? You look like forty, man.
1:15:02 Speaker 00 That's because of healing. This is what I tell people. They're like, get a skincare line, Frank. I'm like, no, it's not skincare, it's releasing trauma.
1:15:08 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:15:09 Speaker 00 It's releasing trauma. I think I look younger the more I release. I think we all do, honestly.
1:15:14 Lewis Howes? Because you feel lighter.
1:15:15 Speaker 00 I'm not carrying stuff, I'm not carrying it anymore, right? So, yes, it's possible for people. Yes, you can do it. I don't want people to feel bad. The trauma dumping is sharing before you've healed. And you're gonna.
1:15:30 Lewis Howes? And people, and people get a lot of attention, they get a lot of like, validation? And then they keep doing it from a wounded place.
1:15:38 Speaker 00 Yes, it's, it increases the us/them mentality. That's the thing that I'm like, ah, you're all good? And we're all bad? Like, you know, but this early, premature trauma dumping doesn't really help. Now, I'm trying to create, I'm trying, as I move out of therapy, therapy is great, don't get me wrong. It's not enough to heal the world. There's limited resources. We don't have enough therapists. So I'm trying to bring this to the general public so that people, there are safe ways for people to do that. We're creating this part of what the Trauma Institute is.
1:16:12 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:16:13 Speaker 00 Trying to create ways, if you can't afford it, you don't have those resources, that there might be ways to do that. I'm really working hard on that. But trauma dumping is not helping, even though a part gets heard. It does, it's not done safely.
1:16:31 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:16:32 Speaker 00 It's not done with permission. If you trauma dump, all parts of you don't agree to share.
1:16:39 Lewis Howes? Oh. The internal parts of you.
1:16:41 Speaker 00 The internal parts. I say, is everybody okay with sharing?
1:16:44 Lewis Howes? Is everyone in alignment with this?
1:16:45 Speaker 00 Is everyone in alignment?
1:16:46 Lewis Howes? Or just the wounded part of you?
1:16:47 Speaker 00 Right. Then you share from a different place when everyone's aligned. So I'm mixed about it. Like, yeah, there's too many people showing up, doing it, I don't want to say the wrong way, doing it in an uninformed way. That's re-traumatizing. It's re-traumatizing. When you relive something, we know this from neuroscience, reliving reinforces the trauma neural network. Being with it is the space to allow the transformation stuff to occur.
1:17:24 Lewis Howes? What's the difference between reliving it and being with it?
1:17:27 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:17:27 Lewis Howes? What is that?
1:17:28 Speaker 00 I'll, I'll give you an example. Like, I'm so sick and tired of you. You do this to me over and over again. That's in it. Okay? That's in it, right? And you could feel, can't you feel the energy?
1:17:40 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
1:17:41 Speaker 00 And it's like, it's like all of me feels this about all of you. And I'm, all I'm gonna-
1:17:47 Lewis Howes? You always do that.
1:17:48 Speaker 00 Yes. I'm gonna get, I'm not gonna get, thanks for sharing, Frank. I'm gonna get a defensive response back.
1:17:55 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:17:56 Speaker 00 That's your natural instinct. I say, a part of me was so upset by what you did the other day. That, that really hurt me when you said that. Then you're like, oh, so he doesn't hate me.
1:18:09 Lewis Howes? Not, you ruined my life.
1:18:10 Speaker 00 I'm not all bad. I didn't ruin his life. You're like, oh, that thing I did was harmful to him? I get that. You're much more likely to say, I get it. I'm sorry about that. Here's what was going on for me, right? So that's the being in it. It's so like- Encompassing. And it's not effective. It never works. Nobody's like, thanks for sharing.
1:18:31 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:18:32 Speaker 00 When we're in it.
1:18:33 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:18:34 Speaker 00 And so it's the being with.
1:18:36 Lewis Howes? Is it possible for someone to heal without a therapist, a priest, psychiatrist, who's actually helping them release their trauma?
1:18:46 Speaker 00 That's what I'm working on. You know, I'm not 100% certain I want to do this. There's other people working on it, as we mentioned. I want to, I want to kind of create a safe way to do this because there's peer support things that are helpful to a point. Like, one of the things I want to teach people is like, when can you do it on your own? And when do you need to get extra support? Right? When you're able to be with it, you can do more. When you start slipping in it, you've lost perspective. So that's one of the guidelines. I did a course recently with a writer who writes memoirs also, Alyssa Rankin.
1:19:28 Lewis Howes? I know Alyssa, yeah.
1:19:29 Speaker 00 You know Alyssa? Write to heal. Write to heal. We just did a course and we're trying to teach people. And I did, like, we set up this structure and guidelines of how to write from the part, how to write a love letter to the part.
1:19:43 Lewis Howes? That's interesting.
1:19:43 Speaker 00 So we're working on different ways. I feel like we're working on, how do I heal? Because I know there's a lot of people out there who don't have these resources. And there's a lot of trauma. So I'm really working on it. And I'm, you know, I want us to collectively work on it, right? To bring this to people. So that if you can't, you know when you need to get help or how to get help. And I don't know, you talked about these moments in your life. Like with my husband, I had so many corrective experiences with him. Like, that's been a very healing relationship. You know, so we can heal in relationship under the right circumstances that are not therapeutic.
1:20:24 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
1:20:24 Speaker 00 Too, right? You know what I mean? Sometimes friendships are like, I have friends that are just like, can be so vulnerable too. And it feels so good. I don't have a ton of them, but we can heal in relationship.
1:20:36 Lewis Howes? That's powerful.
1:20:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:20:38 Lewis Howes? I wanted to ask you about drugs with mental health or trauma.
1:20:42 Speaker 00 I was gonna say, which drug you're talking about? There's a lot of them.
1:20:45 Lewis Howes? Yeah. I I do my best to come from an open mind when it comes to, I guess, prescription drugs.
1:20:54 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:20:55 Lewis Howes? With someone dealing with mental health, trauma, you know, depression, all these different things.
1:21:01 Speaker 00 Yep.
1:21:03 Lewis Howes? But sometimes I feel like people bypass the work first.
1:21:08 Speaker 00 Yep.
1:21:08 Lewis Howes? To get a relief of, I'm overwhelmed, I'm stressed, I'm mentally struggling, I'm depressed, I'm suicidal thinking.
1:21:16 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:21:16 Lewis Howes? Give me a drug to feel better.
1:21:17 Speaker 00 Hundred percent.
1:21:20 Lewis Howes? What are your thoughts on this? Because you've prescribed this as a psychiatrist to patients and clients before. Do you feel like too many people are quickly jumping to prescription drugs to heal a symptom?
1:21:34 Speaker 00 Yep.
1:21:35 Lewis Howes? Versus turning around and facing themselves, doing the process you talked about, and actually going through the pain, which feels like you're gonna die sometimes.
1:21:43 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:21:44 Lewis Howes? It feels life threatening.
1:21:46 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:21:46 Lewis Howes? When you face the wounds, it is horrendous. So I understand it is probably the hardest work you'll ever do.
1:21:54 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:21:55 Lewis Howes? But what are the complications of going from prescription, depression, antidepressant drugs first, before working through the pain emotionally?
1:22:06 Speaker 00 Yeah. So I'm, I'm not an anti-drug person, and I'm not a drug-first person.
1:22:14 Lewis Howes? Uh huh.
1:22:15 Speaker 00 Right? I, I do a lot, I used to do a lot of psychopharm, psychopharmacology lectures. There's neurobiological, I, I teach about the neurobiology of PTSD and dissociation. And when you're in hyper-aroused PTSD, you have low serotonin, you have low GABA.
1:22:35 Lewis Howes? You have high cortisol.
1:22:36 Speaker 00 You have high cortisol, high norepinephrine, there's a real bio, I mean, I can, I teach this stuff in my sleep. So there's real biological dysregulation. So when you have PTSD, you do, can benefit from increasing your serotonin or decreasing your norepinephrine or dopamine. Okay?
1:22:55 Lewis Howes? There are also natural ways to do that, right?
1:22:57 Speaker 00 There's natural ways to do it, and the drugs aren't wrong at all if they're used appropriately. I think of medications as therapy enhancers. That's the way I think of them. When somebody can't be with. Because they're too flooded. Use the meds to help lower the intensity so you can be with. Meds don't do the work. Meds do not do the work. We can have a whole nother episode on psychedelics at another time because there's a whole world of the psychedelics. MDMA, ketamine, all those drugs. I'm steeped in that world too because people are rushing to those.
1:23:38 Lewis Howes? I get so worried about that.
1:23:39 Speaker 00 I know.
1:23:40 Lewis Howes? And then they're like, I'm healed. And then three weeks later, they're like, I'm gonna break down again.
1:23:44 Speaker 00 Well, it doesn't work. And I have very good friends who are very thoughtful trauma therapists who are doing amazing work with psychedelics too. So they're enhancers.
1:23:54 Lewis Howes? Got it.
1:23:54 Speaker 00 And if you have enough knowledge to know when, it's like, when do you need therapy? When can you do the work on your own? When would medications benefit you? And when are you using them as a replacement? Like, both are true. Do you know what I mean? There's a lot of people that are like these hippie anti-drug people. I'm like, that's ignoring science. And, you know, I'm, I got PTSD, took a pill. Like, that's ignoring reality. You know, both extremes are harmful.
1:24:24 Lewis Howes? I come, yeah, again, I try to have an open mind about this.
1:24:27 Speaker 00 I can hear your energy, though I feel it, but.
1:24:29 Lewis Howes? And.
1:24:29 Speaker 00 Oh, good. There you go.
1:24:31 Lewis Howes? Because we live in the world of ands here.
1:24:32 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:24:35 Lewis Howes? I also worry about external chemicals influencing internal, the internal pharmacy that we naturally have. Just like you said, the wisdom is within us at birth and at five. We have to tap into it.
1:24:53 Speaker 00 Right.
1:24:53 Lewis Howes? We've got to shut out the clutter and the, you know, the chaos and all these things. I get it. It's like, how do we?
1:25:02 Lewis Howes? Know that medication also won't harm our chemistry in the future if we do too much of it.
1:25:08 Speaker 00 We don't know that.
1:25:09 Lewis Howes? And shift of us needing it to then be self-regulated.
1:25:14 Speaker 00 It's.
1:25:14 Lewis Howes? That's my worry in a world of ands.
1:25:17 Speaker 00 It's a big deal with the ADD meds, for example. The ADD meds are very complicated.
1:25:22 Lewis Howes? Especially from childhood as we're developing our brains.
1:25:24 Speaker 00 Exactly. So it's very complicated. You're bringing up something that's important for people to pay attention to. And let's be thoughtful about it. Like, I used them at one point in my healing. I couldn't do the work. I couldn't do the work.
1:25:38 Lewis Howes? That makes sense.
1:25:39 Speaker 00 I couldn't. I was so, I was depressed. I was taken over by it. The therapy wasn't helpful. Because I didn't, I needed, and I did it for probably two years, maybe, is what I did, and it helped me.
1:25:51 Lewis Howes? Then you got off of it.
1:25:52 Speaker 00 I got off of it. It helped me do the work.
1:25:54 Lewis Howes? Yeah, that's good.
1:25:55 Speaker 00 It helped me do the work. Like, if you can't do the work, it can help you versus use it instead of doing the work?
1:26:02 Lewis Howes? No, yeah, yeah. Except if you're willing to do it and say, okay, I'm intensely doing the work now.
1:26:07 Speaker 00 Yes, yeah.
1:26:08 Lewis Howes? And it's a both and.
1:26:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:26:10 Lewis Howes? Then it's like, okay.
1:26:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:26:12 Lewis Howes? If I'm unable to do the work, and I've tried and tried and done all these too many things, and it's not working.
1:26:17 Speaker 00 Then try it.
1:26:18 Lewis Howes? And try it, but also do the work with it, right?
1:26:20 Speaker 00 Don't just take the med. It's not a replacer. It's not a replacer. It's an enhancer of the work.
1:26:26 Lewis Howes? That's good.
1:26:27 Speaker 00 That's the way I think about it.
1:26:28 Lewis Howes? I like that philosophy. Yeah, that's great.
1:26:29 Speaker 00 And to be really thoughtful about the long-term effects of these medicines. I think it's important. Because there is a culture. Like, let's do everything quickly. There's such a culture in that.
1:26:43 Lewis Howes? Or put a Band-Aid on it, or just give it relief.
1:26:45 Speaker 00 Yes. We're so, like, self, technology has made us so instantaneous. Some of the pill stuff folds right into that. You know what I mean? And like, I'd rather do an MDMA session or a mushroom session, so I don't have to.
1:27:02 Lewis Howes? And feel good at the moment.
1:27:03 Speaker 00 And I'm like, gone into la-la land, you know, so I don't have to do the work. So there's a bypass. We call that bypass. Like, a lot of people use meds. A lot of people use meditation as bypass, or spirituality.
1:27:16 Lewis Howes? Really?
1:27:17 Speaker 00 As bypass. Let me get to a higher place and ignore my trauma. There's a lot of bypass in spirituality. There's a lot of bypass in medication. They both, like, I'm a very spiritual person. It can really enhance the work, but it can also be bypassed. So can medicines.
1:27:35 Lewis Howes? Wow. If someone knows that they have blocks, they have wounds, they have pain, they have resentments, anger inside of them, and they also know that, man, this might take months or years to process and actually face, and I've got so much at work and my family, I've got to show up and like, hold the ship together. Like, I can't go through this work right now because it's going to be so painful. It's going to take so much of my energy, my time. I'm not going to be able to be there for my husband or my wife or my kids, my work. I'm going to be in like breakdown mode.
1:28:05 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:28:06 Lewis Howes? What would you say to those individuals on what's available on the other side? And is it ever a wrong time to start the work?
1:28:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's a great question, and I face this a lot with a lot of people, I have to tell you. It is, I can feel it as we're talking, like, it is really painful. It is difficult to go through this. I'm on the other side.
1:28:30 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:28:31 Speaker 00 And my life is better than it's ever been. I am doing more things than I had, I would have never in a million years thought I would be able to live this kind of life. So the benefits are enormous when we are clean and clear and truly ourselves. The benefits are endless for all of us in different ways. So not everybody wants to, has the resources to do the work to get there. And I say that's a choice. I really say that's a choice. Most people can't slip through life without getting stopped up by it.
1:29:20 Speaker 00 It's the third divorce. It's the third kid that I can't afford, that I shouldn't have had. It's the job that I keep failing at, or another boss who hates me that I got fired for, right? So what I would say to people is, is how is your life? And is it where you want it to be? And if not, which pieces do you want to change when? This does not have to be done in the grueling, all at once kind of way. You know, out here in L.A., as I'm working more with people, it's fascinating that a lot of people who are in this industry are terrified to do the work
1:30:05 Speaker 00 because they are afraid they're going to lose their careers over it.
1:30:08 Lewis Howes? Interesting.
1:30:09 Speaker 00 If I, and there's a lot, I've met a lot of people who have significant trauma. You don't play somebody else for a livelihood without needing to get away from something. I'm not saying every actor has trauma. I'm not saying that. I'm saying I've worked with people who are very reluctant because there's fear that they're going to lose what they do have if they do the work. I'll lose my family, I'll lose this. So what I say is, take it one step at a time. Like, where are you unhappy? What do you want to change? And then do the work around that piece. Do it a little bit at a time. It doesn't have to be like, I'm, not everybody needs to be in therapy for 33 years. Sorry, that's, I don't recommend that for everybody.
1:30:54 Speaker 00 There's a lot of money and time consuming. I'm grateful, but I have a purpose in it, right? So do what, do it in phases. And if it gets too hard, really stop. There's timing. I had a piece, I, when my, I had my, I have my oldest son and my youngest son, they're four, four years and a day apart.
1:31:19 Speaker 00 And my youngest is on the spectrum. And he was a very challenging kid with many, many medical problems. And I couldn't, I wasn't, I was too overwhelmed in my life to do deep healing work then.
1:31:33 Lewis Howes? During that time.
1:31:33 Speaker 00 I couldn't do it then. I was, I was barely keeping afloat, right? So it's like, you gotta balance where you wanna be, where you are, and what kind of resource, energy and monetarily, do you have when?
1:31:48 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:31:48 Speaker 00 It's kind of a long life and different people do different work at different times.
1:31:53 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:31:54 Speaker 00 You know what I mean? And I can say this now at 60, like, oh, you're only 30. Like, you've got, you've got, you're at 30. Like, you've got a long way to go. Like, it's okay. Do a piece of work now. You know, I did a piece of work, got into a great relationship with a guy. It was like, I didn't repeat anything anymore. I was like, I'm not in repeat mode. I found a good relationship. And then it was, years later, when we had kids, that stuff came up by a different layer. So I went back. Do you know what I mean?
1:32:21 Lewis Howes? Interesting.
1:32:22 Speaker 00 So it doesn't have to be all at once.
1:32:23 Lewis Howes? Interesting. And what would you say is the number one emotion that blocks us from peace, harmony, and ultimate happiness?
1:32:34 Speaker 00 Shame. I think it's shame. Like, shame is so toxic. And shame is usually the result of relational trauma.
1:32:45 Lewis Howes? Really? When does shame occur?
1:32:48 Speaker 00 I write about this, it can happen. Brene Brown talks about shame in a way that I love also. I think from a, I write about shame from a trauma, a relational trauma perspective. And there's two shame cycles that I talk about.
1:33:04 Lewis Howes? Hmm.
1:33:05 Speaker 00 Within trauma, within relational trauma. One is when you're verbally or physically abused. You worthless piece of, okay? You internalize, I'm a worthless piece of. So you have a part that holds shame. I, shame is not, I did something wrong. Shame is, I am bad. So when we are, when there's an external shamer.
1:33:33 Speaker 00 We develop an internal shamer and an internal shamed.
1:33:41 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:33:43 Speaker 00 Okay, you worthless piece of, if you behave, we won't get in trouble. So when you're critically abused, verbally abused, or externally shamed, you have a shame wound, I'm bad, I'm no good.
1:33:56 Lewis Howes? Is that sexual abuse too?
1:33:58 Speaker 00 Sexual abuse can, yeah, it's, it's, yeah, I would say sexual abuse too. It's interesting, it's, I should just feel that so powerfully, like, it adds another dimension to it, like, I am, it's like the vile.
1:34:12 Lewis Howes? Worthless, yeah, yeah.
1:34:12 Speaker 00 Worthless, it adds another layer of shame. You can relate it from your own history, right? So it's, it's, yeah, it's, I would say it's another depth.
1:34:24 Lewis Howes? Another layer.
1:34:25 Speaker 00 Another layer of, I am horrible, I am bad. That's one shame cycle that can be healed. Okay, and that's the wound is, I am no good. It takes a long time to heal shame wounds. They can be healed, but it takes a long time. It's such a physiologically powerful emotion, and it's so reflexive and reactive, right? Instantaneous.
1:34:49 Lewis Howes? It's probably why you had this kind of reaction when your kids would jump on your back, you're like, ah.
1:34:53 Speaker 00 It's just, it's so reflexive. The other shame wound comes from neglect.
1:35:00 Lewis Howes? And that could be big T neglect or little T neglect, right?
1:35:03 Speaker 00 Yeah, like, I am so bad that my parent doesn't even care. I am so bad that I'm not worth food, or clothing, or a hug.
1:35:14 Lewis Howes? Or love or affection.
1:35:15 Speaker 00 Or love or affection. So when it's neglect, it's, it's, it's, and I call the, this one, the hyper aroused, you yelling and screaming. This one's the hypo aroused, numb, detached, disconnected. And then you develop an internal. Shamer and or disconnector like you're those are the people are disconnected from themselves because they've learned that disconnection is a way of being in the world.
1:35:44 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:35:45 Speaker 00 See, so those are two such shame cycles that I work with in relational trauma. All different versions over and over.
1:35:52 Lewis Howes? How is someone who is disconnected or analytical and not in their body and connected to their heart?
1:35:58 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:35:59 Lewis Howes? Based on conditionings of neglect and shame.
1:36:03 Speaker 00 Yep.
1:36:05 Lewis Howes? How does someone like that learn to heat process and heal so they're fully in their body and in their heart?
1:36:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:36:12 Lewis Howes? And connected to themselves and the world?
1:36:16 Speaker 00 That was so when you the I I had the smart intellectual protector in a big way.
1:36:24 Lewis Howes? I'm gonna know it all.
1:36:25 Speaker 00 I you don't get to Harvard like I was like, yeah, like, and I was who I was.
1:36:32 Lewis Howes? Your identity.
1:36:32 Speaker 00 Who I was. I am smart. And it was, you know, intellect fills a void. Intellect fills the void, the shame void. It's like I like and those parts.
1:36:46 Lewis Howes? If I if I feel worthless, then this will help me not feel worthless.
1:36:49 Speaker 00 I'm gonna I'm gonna fill the space. I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna understand it. I'm gonna solve the problem. Right? And those parts have a very hard time stepping back. If I step back, there's nothing, right?
1:37:03 Lewis Howes? If I don't lead with my intellect.
1:37:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:37:05 Lewis Howes? Or showcase my abilities or skills.
1:37:08 Speaker 00 I'm nothing. I'm nothing. And so, right?
1:37:13 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:37:13 Speaker 00 And it's so powerful. So it takes those are those are take a long time to work with those. And I remember the moment that that I wasn't like fully identified with that part. It's like it was it was a like it was like one of these like. Identity crises, it's like, who am I? Who am I if I'm not smart? You know, like, then it was where I was like, oh, you're funny. And oh, you like this? Like, I started seeing the other dimensions, but for the longest time, it was like, I, I write about this in the book. I used to run home with As on my report card, hoping my dad will love me. Like, this is, she's gonna love me now. The gold star is on the report card, you know?
1:37:58 Lewis Howes? Perfect.
1:37:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:37:59 Lewis Howes? GPA. Top of the class.
1:38:01 Speaker 00 So I was driven for achievement to get love.
1:38:05 Lewis Howes? Did he ever acknowledge you or love you when you had As?
1:38:08 Speaker 00 It didn't, he acknowledged, we got a dollar for every A back in the day. Okay, we got a dollar for every A. Okay, so, but it didn't get me what I wanted. It didn't get me love.
1:38:17 Lewis Howes? Really?
1:38:17 Speaker 00 It didn't get me love, you know?
1:38:19 Lewis Howes? So you got rewarded in monetary ways, but not emotional or affectionate ways?
1:38:25 Speaker 00 Exactly. So it took, it take those, those people that are all left brained.
1:38:30 Lewis Howes? How does someone learn how to fully love and love themselves? And give themselves affection when their parents didn't have the tools? Or wasn't in their DNA to touch, hug, kiss?
1:38:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:38:45 Lewis Howes? And love on their kids? And I said, when I went to Japan last year, I saw this and I heard this from many people that said, just the culture, I'm sure some people didn't do this, but the culture in general.
1:38:56 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:38:57 Lewis Howes? Just wasn't affectionate with kids. And it's very academic driven, achievement driven, you know, type of culture. Again, not all parents were this way, but it seems like this was the, the culture. And they grew up not able to express their emotions as fully based because of that.
1:39:15 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:39:15 Lewis Howes? So if someone was raised without affection from their parents, love, attention, how they, how do they learn to give themselves affection? And be comfortable receiving from others when they never received from their parents.
1:39:29 Speaker 00 Yes, it's a great question because it is, I'm gonna say it's possible. I do believe it's possible. And it's undoing a lot of family legacy, cultural trauma. Transgenerational trauma. So there's a lot that comes up in transgenerational trauma around that.
1:39:47 Lewis Howes? Dr. Marielle Bouquet talks about generational trauma.
1:39:50 Speaker 00 That's exactly right. It's huge. We all grow up in some form of a family that we've internalized the messages through ethnicity, through the family culture, through, you know, so we internalize that stuff. That's also not our energy. It's energy we absorb because of the family we're in.
1:40:13 Lewis Howes? Gosh.
1:40:14 Speaker 00 Okay, so once you differentiate who you are from what you were subjected to, who you are from what you were subjected to, or what family you were born into, what's yours, what isn't yours, right? And this idea, we all have love within us.
1:40:37 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:40:38 Speaker 00 We all have it. So even if you're programmed not to, we all have it.
1:40:44 Lewis Howes? We all have it.
1:40:47 Lewis Howes? Your book, To Be Loved: A Story of Truth, Trauma, and Transformation by Frank Anderson, is a powerful story about just kind of the life you've been through and the different levels of traumas and challenges and therapies and experiences. It's a beautiful story. I want people to get this because I think a lot of people can relate in some way to their own life.
1:41:07 Speaker 00 Hundred percent.
1:41:08 Lewis Howes? About what they've experienced, what they've gone through, and how to find hope and healing, no matter how much trauma you've experienced, what type of disconnection you've had, how you've been abused, abandoned, forgotten, dismissed.
1:41:23 Speaker 00 That's right.
1:41:23 Lewis Howes? In your uniqueness in the world. And how to love and acknowledge people, even if they've treated you poorly as parents, and see them from a compassionate place without condoning their behaviors and actions toward you as a child. One of the exercises I have experienced that is probably one of the most healing for me.
1:41:46 Lewis Howes? As I'd done the, I'd been doing the work for a while was revisiting, I'm getting chills just thinking about it. Was revisiting the five-year-old in front of me. And having a beautiful conversation and experience with my five-year-old self. That's right. And bringing him into my heart and reconnecting with that wounded boy. That's right. And as an adult self, being able to hug and give him what he needed and also thank him. Yeah. For going through the challenge and the struggle, for facing these confusing times as a child without the tools. And saying, "Thank you for getting us here." Right.
1:42:31 Lewis Howes? "I got your back now and I can take us to the next place." Hundred percent. "Thank you for enduring this confusing, painful life." Yeah. "You shouldn't have had to experience this." That's right. "I acknowledge you for not hurting yourself more than you did, not beating yourself up more than you did and for doing your best." That's right. "I love you, I accept you and I appreciate you and I, and I got you." Hundred percent. It's one of the most beautiful exercises that I have done for my, all the parts of myself. That's right. That's the transformation thing I was talking about. It's a beautiful example of that. It is.
1:43:14 Lewis Howes? Yeah, and I think, you know, your book gives us kind of this journey of how we can do this with ourselves and different parts of ourselves. And just understands the complexity of the human experience. Right. Because it's, in my opinion, the most beautiful experience, but it can also be the most challenging, confusing experience at the same time. Because we live in a world of ands. Yep.
1:43:41 Lewis Howes? People can get the book right now, To Be Loved. Also, your website, frankandersonmd.com. You're also on social media, more now. Frank Anderson M.D. If they just Google that, they'll find all of your social media links. You're also working on the Trauma Institute, which people can find as well on your website and learn more about how they can use the tools and training and courses to support them on their own journey if they can't afford therapy at this moment, or they're not ready for it, or they want to do it on their own to get started and dabble in it. So I highly recommend that. You are, you know, you've been in this work with the leaders of psychiatry, psychology,
1:44:25 Lewis Howes? therapy, trauma for decades in this work, and you've studied with, worked with, and know all of the top experts. You're constantly learning. So this book will be a great resource for anyone looking to reclaim themselves and to feel fully loved and healed in their journey. So I'm so grateful that you're here, and I acknowledge you for the pain you have endured and the suffering that you have experienced throughout different seasons of your life. And the gift you give all of us by saying, "This pain is, I'm going to create meaning
1:45:05 Lewis Howes? from this pain and trauma and suffering, and I'm going to find out why this is happening so I can serve people." So they don't have to experience this pain and suffering as well. So I want to acknowledge you for the gift of continuing your journey of growth, your gift of finding ways to bring academic research and science to the masses so that we can understand the complicated. Yes. And just acknowledge you, Frank, for your big heart and tapping into your heart and getting out of your head. Yeah. It's your beautiful human being. Thank you. Two final questions I have for you. This is called the three truths question. So it's a hypothetical scenario.
1:45:46 Lewis Howes? Imagine you get to live as long as you want in this world, but it's your last day. It could be as old, you could be as old as you want. You know, science has gotten you to 100-plus something years old. You still have the same skin. You know, at 100, so you look 30. But for whatever reason, it's the last day for you hypothetically. You get to create everything you want, to witness, experience everything you want from this moment until then. But for whatever reason in this hypothetical question,
1:46:13 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:46:14 Lewis Howes? all of your content is gone from the world. We don't have access to your book, this conversation, anything you create, for whatever reason, it's gone.
1:46:23 Lewis Howes? But on the last day, you get to leave behind three lessons from all of your life's experience. And this is all we would have to remember and be reminded of. And I call it the three truths question. What were those three truths that you think everyone needs to know that you would share?
1:46:40 Speaker 00 So we all, we all have love in us, even our enemies.
1:46:49 Speaker 00 We all have
1:46:53 Speaker 00 trauma
1:46:56 Speaker 00 that can be healed.
1:47:01 Speaker 00 And really, nothing else is more important than love and connection. Like, it's interesting, when you were saying that, I was, part of me instantly flashed to my kids. And then my husband, and then my siblings, right? It's like the people that are important to me, right? And then you're like, all your books and information are gone. The other piece was like, but wait a minute, like, I want to get this message of trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma to the world, you know? And so I would say those, the three things encapsulate that. The importance of love and connection. The fact that we all have it in us, and it can be healed.
1:47:40 Lewis Howes? Final question, Frank, what's your definition of greatness?
1:47:44 Speaker 00 Love and kindness. Honestly, love and kindness.
1:47:48 Lewis Howes? There you go. Frank, thanks so much for being here.
1:47:50 Speaker 00 Thank you.
1:47:51 Lewis Howes? I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcasts. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend. Leave us a review over on Apple Podcasts and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels, @LuisHowes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter
1:48:35 Lewis Howes? and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
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