The Practical Guide To Making More Money in 2025

I'm going on tour! Come see The School of Greatness LIVE in person! Get my new book Make Money Easy here! Today's transformative episode brings together three financial and productivity powerhouses to share game-changing insights about wealth creation and time management. Legendary investor Ray Dalio reveals the fundamental difference between wealthy and struggling mindsets, emphasizing the critical role of delayed gratification and strategic decision-making. Bestselling author Jen Sincero vulnerably shares her journey from living in a garage to becoming a multi-millionaire, highlighting how shifting her relationship with money transformed her financial reality. Productivity expert Rory Vaden introduces his revolutionary "Focus Funnel" framework, teaching listeners how to multiply their time by making better decisions today that create more time and money tomorrow. This episode delivers practical wisdom for anyone looking to transform their relationship with money, time, and success. Make Money Easy by Lewis HowesPrinciples by Ray DalioProcrastinate on Purpose by Rory VadenYou Are A Badass by Jen SinceroIn this episode you will learn:The "marshmallow test" principle of wealth building and why delayed gratification is the foundation of financial successHow to develop the critical skill of diversification in investing and why it's more challenging than competing in the OlympicsThe three essential questions to ask yourself before any business ventureWhy writing a "love letter to money" can transform your relationship with wealth and abundanceThe difference between Era 1 (efficiency), Era 2 (prioritizing), and Era 3 (multiplying) time managementHow to use the "Focus Funnel" framework to eliminate, automate, and multiply your time and moneyFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1718For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Ray Dalio – greatness.lnk.to/1266SCJen Sincero – greatness.lnk.to/1492SCRory Vaden – greatness.lnk.to/1133SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life, and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneymeasibook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment, moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to this episode on the School of Greatness.

• 0:45Lewis Howes?

  What would you say is the mindset that wealthy people have around making it and growing their money for them versus the mindset of people that stay stuck in not making it?

• 0:57Ray Dalio?

  Well, I want to distinguish there's big differences in opportunities.

• 1:03Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:03Ray Dalio?

  So let's say, supposing you have two people of comparable opportunities.

• 1:08Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:09Ray Dalio?

  And then they were going to do that. Okay. The marshmallow test, as you know, apparently, is you take a kid and you say, okay, you can have one marshmallow now, or you could have two marshmallows in 15 minutes.

• 1:29Lewis Howes?

  If you don't eat the first one, yeah.

• 1:30Ray Dalio?

  If you don't eat the first one, right?

• 1:32Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 1:33Ray Dalio?

  Okay, once you start to realize that deferred gratification is going to make you better and so on, and you start to count, and you say, like, something like, how many days, weeks, months, or years can I live if I don't have money come in? And you start to focus in on that, that's the first step, okay? Like the marshmallow test. Okay, so I want to save. You got to start there.

• 2:13Ray Dalio?

  Then, if you do that, you're necessarily going to go, save in what? And then you'll start to get exposure. To how these things are different. Okay, then you start to care. I'm going to have one of these and one of those and you start to experience. And then you start to learn. And basically, that's what makes the difference.

• 2:42Lewis Howes?

  That's it. The so first, having the ability to have delayed gratification. Then obviously diving in researching, testing and trying different things, but the more and more you can say you don't want something now for greater later is the essential key.

• 2:57Ray Dalio?

  Well, and what it does then when it comes to the money, that means money.

• 3:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 3:02Ray Dalio?

  Now, at that moment that you don't want it, you have savings. That means I want savings.

• 3:10Ray Dalio?

  Okay, now you got savings. So the next thing inevitably that's going to come at you is where do I put it?

• 3:20Ray Dalio?

  And then you get your choices and then you experience it and you learn, right?

• 3:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, because there's lots of places to put it for investments. There's real estate, there's stocks, there's building your own company, there's different places to invest. What have you found are the top places that people should be investing?

• 3:38Ray Dalio?

  Well, I think first you you start with one of the most important things that you're closest to like. Is it your business? First, calculate how many days, weeks, months or years you can live on your saving. Because when you do that, you'll start to you'll gain security, you'll gain that. Okay? So look at how much you're spending. Okay, and then say, how much do I need? And whatever that number is, you're going to need more than that. Because it may go down rather than go up. So, okay, now do I have a year's spending?

• 4:22Ray Dalio?

  Okay, so I think I think you you start there.

• 4:27Ray Dalio?

  Then you start to think, what are the things that are most important for me? Like, and then you start with your, your business or your residence that have a symbiotic relationship and that you know well. Let's say i- i- if you'd start with your business. Okay, you're closer to that investing in yourself with whatever that may end up being. That may be your best investment.

• 4:55Lewis Howes?

  Not, not real estate, not stocks, not the market.

• 5:00Ray Dalio?

  Well, it depends if you're, if you're not, you know, if you're doing something where you can do it yourself and that's the thing. But if you're in a job and, and that, that's not the thing.

• 5:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 5:10Ray Dalio?

  Cause you, cause you're in a different position. Okay. But anyway, if you, and then I, I really think there's something good about your home, a basic thing about your home because it's nice forced savings. And it also means that you, you fix it up, you, you know, you're saving, you find out there's, oh, well, if I add this thing or that thing and you're enjoying it. So when you're enjoying it and you're controlling it and it's yours and so on, that's, that's pretty good. And if, you know, if they keep mortgage tax deductions and so on, you know, there might be some benefits to it also.

• 5:55Ray Dalio?

  Okay. But that's not a black and white answer. You know, so you could take a short pencil and say, is it better to rent or buy? Okay, that's a different question, maybe yes, but by and large, am I going to move? You know, all of those other questions, but, so when you start with, okay, what is it that's close to home and how much? You need a certain amount that's liquid. In other words, you got it in your house, you gotta make a mortgage payment or something. And all of a sudden, you're, you know, it's not liquid and you lose your job. Well, that can cause you trouble. So how much do I have that's liquid? How much do I have that's not liquid? Okay. And you start to get those things right.

• 6:40Ray Dalio?

  Okay. Ah, I've got enough liquid. I got enough, okay, not liquid in those other things. Okay. Pretty soon, you're, you're getting yourself in good shape.

• 6:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:53Ray Dalio?

  You do those things, you know, you're pretty much in good shape. And then you're also having some experiences and then you go beyond that, you know? And then, so you start to, okay, what, you know, okay, what's a stock? What's a bond? And then, you know, you learn through experiences. I, I learned through my, my experiences. I started when I was a kid, 12. I used to caddy and I took my caddying money and I put it in the stock market. And I was lucky. What happened to me, by, by the way, is I took my caddying money and I bought the only company that I ever heard of that was selling for less than $5 a share.

• 7:38Ray Dalio?

  And I thought that that, you know, well, I was really dumb. I thought I'll buy more shares. So if it goes up, I'll make more money. And it was the only company. It was a company that was about to go broke, but somebody, some other company acquired it and it tripled. And I thought, ah, this is an easy game and I like it. Easy money. So, but you know, you experiment and you learn.

• 8:00Lewis Howes?

  You're a very philanthropic individual, you and your wife, your foundation, your company. You give back in a lot of ways. Some might be through donations, like computers. Some might be through financial, some might be through just your work and your content on LinkedIn, which is amazing. I recommend everyone subscribe to on LinkedIn. The content there is amazing. You're giving back in lots of ways. I'm curious, what's the greatest gift a rich person or someone with money can give someone who doesn't have money?

• 8:28Ray Dalio?

  To give the knowledge, teach a man how to fish is better than to give him a fish. I mean, I think you can give them both. You can give education and you can, but. Ability, the capacity to be productive because you know, if I can give you the capacity to go out in the world, it's like go into a jungle. I give you a knife and can you live in the jungle? Okay, if I give you that capacity, that's the best thing I can give you. That's why I wrote the book and you know, pass it on. I wrote those principles over years and I wrote them down and that's what I want to pass along. That's the most important thing.

• 9:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:07Ray Dalio?

  But, but if you've, but if you've got money, you can help people a lot in a lot of different ways, which is thrilling.

• 9:16Lewis Howes?

  What would you say then are the three greatest skills that people that aren't financially abundant or that are struggling financially should learn to master in order to be in a better position financially? Three skills, what would you say they should learn?

• 9:30Ray Dalio?

  Well, as I said before, I remember watching the movie, I was young, David Copperfield with W C Fields and he speaks to David Copperfield and he says, he said something like, and I'll put it in dollar terms, you earn a hundred dollars and you spend a hundred and five dollars, that's misery. If you earn a hundred dollars and you spend ninety-five dollars, you'll have a good life. I mean, it wasn't exactly like that, but it was, but, but basically, I know

• 10:09Ray Dalio?

  so many people who don't earn much, but are there. Because if you start to think about what it is that it costs you to live in terms of, let's say, the basics, you know, give me a bed to sleep in, give me the food, let me be educated and so on, so forth. I think most people can get themselves in a position.

• 10:35Ray Dalio?

  Where, you know, they're net positive. So if you can be net positive and you could do that, that, you know, that's number one, you know, as I carry that. So that's, you know, that's number one. Then I guess it was the list that we went to, you know, the second is, you know, what do you do next? In terms of what do you need? What do you invest in? You know, and then, and then, you know, going beyond it. And then there, avoid the following mistake, the most common mistake of investing. Thinking that the investment that did good is a good investment.

• 11:16Ray Dalio?

  People rather more expensive. The things that quite often, those markets that did really, really well became more, more expensive. And everybody, smart money is all the time compete, comparing them and competing. So what happens is, um, the naive money buys the thing that was hot. Or is hot. The thing that has been terrible, which might be the thing that's beaten down. So I would say also an important element. Okay. So here's another one that's really important. Diversify. So don't put all your eggs in one basket.

• 12:01Ray Dalio?

  Right. Because what I learned about this is that, first of all, all investments uh, compete and it's not easy to sell, tell whether one investment is better than the other. Because if people could do that, life would be easy and everybody'd make a ton of money. Um, so, and this is a competitive game that's very difficult to compete in. So it's very difficult to say which one's better or worse. You could take experts and you could, and do all sorts of tests. And you'll find out that they can pick that and you can't tell whether the worst ones are going to be better. So because of that, you understand that, um, even picking the best ones is difficult. And particularly if you're naive.

• 12:45Ray Dalio?

  Like we spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year on research to try to give us an edge.

• 12:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 12:53Ray Dalio?

  Now, you've got to compete with us. So, uh, competing in the markets is more difficult than competing in the Olympics. You wouldn't go think I'm going to compete in the Olympics, but there are more people who try harder in order to do that. So it's a zero sum game. So, but diversification, um, that they're different, uh, will reduce your risk without, uh, reducing your return.

• 13:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:22Ray Dalio?

  So if you know how to diversify well, so, um, that's critical. So I would say, again, uh, get, get your savings right. And the reasons I say, I would say, um, have great humility about what you, what you don't know. Don't buy the thing that was hot. Just because you think it's hot. Um, and then know how to diversify well. That those would be the most important things I could convey.

• 13:52Lewis Howes?

  I love that you talk about the, the sports analogy, the Olympics. You're speaking my language now as a former football player. Some of the greatest quarterbacks seem to get not too high. There's, they get excited, but not too excited and not too low. Uh, when things go good or bad. How important is that skill to be emotionally resilient on both levels, high and low for you? How important is that skill?

• 14:18Ray Dalio?

  Oh, yeah. It was, uh, it is one of the most important things possible and it's not easy to do. Um, so I needed to, uh, you know, do two things. Um, I found that by writing down my principles and the rules, and then testing how they would have performed over time. And that's where the algorithms came.

• 14:44Ray Dalio?

  So that I can basically, just like a machine, play it click, click, click, click, click. Okay, with execute the game plan. You know, don't do it because I know what the experience is like. The experience is like you're wrestling around with it. You're losing money. Like the day you put on a trade, it doesn't go either straight up or straight down. It goes against you. So now, I don't know, you're losing money. Okay, how, how much should you lose? What's your game plan? You've got to know your game plan and stick to the game plan. And you can't be shaken out. And yet, um, the emotions are going to cause you to doubt yourself.

• 15:27Ray Dalio?

  And plus, it brings you stress, all of that. So you have to execute a game plan that's very well thought out, right?

• 15:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:36Ray Dalio?

  Then over time, you start to develop some better instincts. Like if you're excited and you're going along, be scared. You know, if you're, if you're doing something you're really worried about and, and nobody else is doing it. Maybe good. Don't be dissuaded. See, the markets are very different than consensus decision making. It's counter consensus because the consensus is built into the price. So if everybody loves something, it's expensive. And if everybody hates something, it's cheap. So where most people say, ah, this is like, oh, what a great company. Okay, Amazon is a great company. We got Amazon's a great company.

• 16:20Ray Dalio?

  Who doesn't got that Amazon's a great company? Okay, and then, okay, I'm gonna go on Amazon. Okay. But if everybody's got that it's, it's a great company and it, it becomes increment less great than they anticipated. Bam, that baby goes down. So you have to, um, start to develop some of those instincts or a game plan.

• 16:43Lewis Howes?

  And what, what financial advice would you give to millennials? Who, who don't have these, these tools yet? Besides, obviously getting your book and, and starting to practice some of these things. But I feel like millennials are overspending more than ever. They're uneducated on finances and a personal finances. What, what advice would you have there?

• 17:01Ray Dalio?

  Pay attention to the feedback you get from the realities you encounter.

• 17:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:07Ray Dalio?

  Okay, I mean. You know, pain plus reflection, you will get the pain. Pay attention to it, listen to it because you're gonna get the pain.

• 17:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And do you think it's, you, you have the wealthiest friends in the world, you're friends with uh some of the wealthiest people in the world. Do you think it's easier to uh get wealthy, wealthy or stay wealthy? Which one is harder to do? Get there or stay there?

• 17:35Ray Dalio?

  Stay there is definitely harder to do than get there. Getting there can also be like, has a certain element of luck. You know, um, I was in the right place at the right time. I held this thing or uh bought it. Or I am at that company, I'm working at that company. And you know, all of a sudden it goes from this to that. And you know, you're holding on to it and it goes. Okay, that's phew, oh wow, okay, it's winning the lottery kind of thing. Okay, do that again.

• 18:12Ray Dalio?

  Okay.

• 18:12Lewis Howes?

  And then again.

• 18:13Ray Dalio?

  And you do it again. And can you make the thing, the, the thing work over and over? And can you hold on to it? And so on. Yeah. Because that, that's where, you know, it's like, um, well, using your sports analogy, right? You, you know, you can luckily crack it, that crack the bat and you know, I mean, or whatever you, the Hail Mary pass and so on. When you have to do it on an ongoing basis, regularly. That's the test of talent and that's harder.

• 18:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. When you doubt a decision or maybe just a moment in your life, personal or business related, doesn't matter. When you doubt, when you're in doubt of something, what is your personal mantra to get you back to a kind of a centered aligned place? Where you can make a better decisions?

• 19:05Ray Dalio?

  Well, um, on the doubts.

• 19:08Ray Dalio?

  You know, the question is always like, how big of a deal is it? And what is this type of bet and so on? And, you know, little doubts, no, okay, that's no big thing. You know, life and death decisions, those kinds of things, they're big. You know, those are the big questions. And what I, what I realize on those is doubting is part of that process. You can only be sure a certain amount. How do you get to the best triangulation? In other words, take in from the smartest people and your own thoughts and so on. So that you're making that, understand how reality works.

• 19:50Ray Dalio?

  And then try to make sure that none of your decisions are the ones that knock you out of the game. In other words, like I've got an expression for people who, who work for me, you can scratch the car, but you can't total the car. You know, you could, so realize, okay, you don't win it all. You, you know, you, you make your best bets, but don't have the one. So you have to eliminate the, the killer ones because you have enough killer ones and one, and odds are one of them's going to get you. Right. So, so, you know, I approach it basically that way. You know, try to make the diversification, try not to have any killer, eliminate all

• 20:35Ray Dalio?

  of those that are unacceptable and then go for the upside and, and doubt. But, you know, I'm used to doubt. I doubt, you know, there's, there's everything. Every time you put on a position in the markets, for example, I am never sure if, look, it would be easy if I knew. So there's a lot of doubt. Right. So, so doubt is part of it, but you know, don't have, don't put yourself in a position that you can have unacceptable.

• 21:03Lewis Howes?

  Where you go bro.

• 21:04Ray Dalio?

  Bring kanged around a little bit is okay.

• 21:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:07Ray Dalio?

  Right?

• 21:08Lewis Howes?

  So how do you have confidence when you're doubting yourself and you're like, I think this is gonna do well based on all the math and historical evidence and feelings? How do you have confidence when you, you know, place that bet?

• 21:21Ray Dalio?

  I have enough bets that I make the bet so that none, no one of them, I won't allow anyone that'll kill me.

• 21:29Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:29Ray Dalio?

  And then I raise and I'll typically only want to make bets that I feel good about. And I will have them stress tested my bets by having other people stress test it. So yeah, just imagine, I don't know, you're playing a chess game. Okay, now, okay, maybe you're a chess master, but okay, what are you gonna do? You have to still make a move. So, okay, what's the best thing to do? Now imagine you could ask the best chess masters in the world what you do and think about the pros and cons and make your decision and just not make it that also one's gonna knock out of the game. So it's that.

• 22:06Lewis Howes?

  You mentioned a team going through the jungle with you and supporting you. Whether it be mentors or hiring, how have you learned to bring together this great team that you've assembled? Where people are gonna disagree with you. It sounds like people would have different thoughts and be able to free to disagree with you on certain things. How do you know when the disagreement becomes toxic? When you can look at it from a point of view of like, okay, I need this disagreeing thought. But when does it become toxic where you actually need to let go of that person in your life or on your team?

• 22:40Ray Dalio?

  Well, what's so interesting to me, I think, is that immediately your question about the disagreement is toxic. That's the first thing that people go to. Somehow they think disagreement is toxic. And supposedly it's because the part of our brain, which is the amygdala, which is this fight or flight, takes disagreement as the equivalent of a fight. And so it anyway gets triggered that way. Now instead, imagine it's a curiosity. In other words, I view it as a curiosity. I mean, I could tell if somebody's wanting to disagree with me or I'm disagreeing with them because I want to hurt them. I mean, that's a different thing.

• 23:24Ray Dalio?

  If you want to hurt them, okay, then that's a different thing. But I mean, like disagreement. Should be a comfortable thing that prompts curiosity and so on and mutual respect like if like, how could I ever get along with you if I couldn't disagree with you? I like, how many times, you know, I mean, you're gonna disagree, like you might one thing, another, then that's the beginning of trying to find out what's correct in the past. So, a good partner is gonna disagree with you and you have to get past it. So, the fact that you're asking that question, the way it is, which is a normal question that everybody would ask, so reflects the fact that there's a hesitancy for disagreement, that gets a

• 24:08Ray Dalio?

  bad thing and it's a fight and it's nastiness, rather than just a disagreement that needs to be figured out.

• 24:17Lewis Howes?

  And how have you personally learned how to disassociate the maybe personal attack against your ideas or your position on a stance of whatever, between someone personally attacking you and just, oh, this is a curious idea that they have, let me ask them more about it. How have you learned how to do that? And what advice would you have for others?

• 24:37Ray Dalio?

  First of all, I learned by it because it, you know, like it works. I mean, you know, like I'm afraid of the opposite. And how could I have, it helps my decision making, it helps our relationships. What are they gonna do? Bottle it up and I'm gonna bottle it up? Is that smart? I mean, you know, that that sounds stupid to me. You don't even know what's true. You can't figure it out. So, everybody's confused because nobody knows what each other's really thinking. And then also, like, you know, you won't get to the

• 25:17Ray Dalio?

  right answer. And I mean, that just is too stupid a path for me to do it. It's too risky a path and it's so much rewarding, so much more rewarding to do the other, right?

• 25:29Lewis Howes?

  Have you always been like that? Or was it until you went broke?

• 25:32Ray Dalio?

  I think what helped me get that way was the markets.

• 25:37Ray Dalio?

  Okay, because again, what happens is, you know, there's just being right or wrong. There's just a winning or a losing and, and, and, okay. So just imagine, you know, it's like being a trained monkey. You, you, you know, like it, what works, you, okay. Should we push a button? Should we push the button? Okay, okay, yes, okay, it makes sense. Okay, button is better than, oh, I'm gonna push the button, push the button, whatever it is. Okay, no, I don't see it that way. Okay, let's figure it out and so on. So I, and then the scorecard, I think probably had the benefit of that kind of notion. I got a scorecard. Okay, I don't know, like, I'm not sure. Okay, bring it on, please stress test me. Oh, that's great. We have, we're good partners.

• 26:21Ray Dalio?

  So that to some extent, I think, played a role in, you know, my types of experiences. Maybe if everybody had a scorecard on all their decisions and then was being able to experience, essentially you try it one way, you try it the other way and you start to see what's better. And you get punished one way, you get rewarded the other way. Naturally, you want to go in the direction you get rewarded.

• 26:44Lewis Howes?

  Right. So you stop thinking, okay, my way is the way. You start basing it based on data and scorecards.

• 26:50Ray Dalio?

  Isn't that so stupid? My way is the way. I just want to make the right, the best decision possible. I don't care where it comes from.

• 26:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. But did you, at one point in your life, for a period of time, were you committed to your way and thinking that you had the answers?

• 27:05Ray Dalio?

  Well, I, I, like I say, I think before that 1982-ish incident, I probably was a lot more, okay, yeah, okay, you know, I think it's right and what I think is right and I'm a smart guy and so on. So I was like, you know, that life is a good teacher, just a good, you know, like two by four in the head, you know? And you got a couple of those and, you, you know, pain plus reflection equals progress.

• 27:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What is thoughtful disagreement in your mind? And how important is that in this moment? Especially with the, this political unrest and economic unrest and just everything? How do people have thoughtful disagreement as opposed to kind of toxic disagreement?

• 27:51Ray Dalio?

  Well, first of all, they, you know, they gotta want it, but let's assume they want it. You know, then there are three things you have to do, basically. First, you have to put your honest thoughts on the table and have the other person put their honest thoughts on the table. Okay, so now you know what you honestly think, both sides. That's great. Then you, then there are protocols for disagreeing well. You know, I wrote a bunch in the, in the book.

• 28:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 28:21Ray Dalio?

  Um, yeah. And like I could go through some of those types of things. There are certain exercises that you could do. You know, I have a two-minute rule. You speak with two minutes without the other. You start to think, are you blocking? Um, you have a mediator, maybe. In other words, somebody when you're disagreeing, if you can't disagree, say, mutually agree that this person will be our mediator and, and, or, and, or maybe to the judge, they'll decide. Maybe it's a group that decides. But in other words, you have a protocol for disagreeing and then, and then deciding.

• 29:00Ray Dalio?

  Sometimes in that disagreement, hopefully you both learn a lot and you may reach an agreement, but you still may not have an agreement. But then you try to say, what's the best protocol for moving past that disagreement? You know, like you have a judge and a jury and, you know, they have a case. And anyway, what, do you have good protocols? So, so you have to have three things. You have to put your honest thoughts on the table. Um, you have to go through processes that helps to reach the right answer, depending on how serious the question is, right? If it's, um, and then number three, uh, you have to have a way of getting past that decision and moving on.

• 29:41Ray Dalio?

  Um, I have a basic view, though, whenever there's any disagreement or anything that's not going well, stop.

• 29:50Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 29:51Ray Dalio?

  Okay, pause. Don't just keep banging at each other.

• 29:55Lewis Howes?

  When it's escalating, when people are yelling at each other.

• 29:58Ray Dalio?

  Pause and, and sort of go above it and say, what are our ground rules for disagreeing? What, how should we be with each other? And you turn your attention rather than to the argument at hand, but say, okay, if I think this and you think this, how do we do this? And then, once you agree, okay, then you go back into the argument, and then you follow those protocols. Because half of the problem is that people just don't even agree, know how to disagree. But if you do it that way with those protocols and so on, and you get past your disagreement, it's great.

• 30:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about-

• 30:41Ray Dalio?

  I'll answer the part two of your question.

• 30:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 30:44Ray Dalio?

  The greatest problem of mankind, I believe, wow, that's a big statement, the greatest problem of mankind. And it is an exceptional problem at this moment in time,

• 31:01Ray Dalio?

  is people having opinions that they're stuck on, that they won't, you know, like, I have to have my opinion, and that's right, and so on, because it prevents them from resolving it, from moving forward to finding the best answer, from compromising and or doing, you know. So like, everybody's arguing over everything, and they, you know, it's almost like they're killing each other. And we're in a society, you know, I have another principle, which is, when the causes that you're behind are more important to you and others than the system,

• 31:46Ray Dalio?

  the system is in jeopardy. So do you, are you just literally going to go fight? So here we are, as we think, will we fight? Or we have, or will we have protocols for having thoughtful disagreements and getting past them?

• 32:04Lewis Howes?

  That's why I love your principles and protocols.

• 32:11Lewis Howes?

  What happens if we don't speak about money in a healthy way?

• 32:15Jen Sincero?

  We perpetuate it as being the big boogeyman. Yeah, and I think anything that's hush hush has, you know, and I do, I relate it to sex all the time, like, we're all supposed to be really good at sex, but you're never allowed to talk about it, and you certainly don't learn about it, you know? So it's like this weird, mysterious, dirty thing. It really is. I mean, it's dirty. Money is dirty. You don't want your dirty money, like, you know what I mean?

• 32:41Lewis Howes?

  And it's dirty until you don't make it dirty, right?

• 32:44Jen Sincero?

  Exactly.

• 32:44Lewis Howes?

  Until you change it.

• 32:45Jen Sincero?

  Exactly. So just by, like, airing it out and talking about it, and being joyful about it, and talking about what you do with it joyfully, and sharing it, and making it, and being happy that you made it, and not, you know, it's so not a big deal, and it's like, we all need it. You know, it's so funny, I always think like, you know, if I told the average person like, "I'm gonna give you 10,000 bucks," they'd be like, "Sweet." And then, you know, but talking about, like, how do you feel about rich people? How do you feel about people who make tons and tons of money? And the disparity, you know, the difference between that, like, you want it, but there's still dirtiness around it, which is why I put in two of my books to write that letter to money, because it's a really interesting exercise.

• 33:24Lewis Howes?

  You wrote like a love letter to money.

• 33:26Jen Sincero?

  Yeah, you just write a letter to money as if it's a person, almost. So it's like, "I love you, I wish I had more of you, but I don't trust you, and I feel like a dirty whore for even saying that," and you know, all, so all the, all the things, and then you can see what you got going on.

• 33:40Lewis Howes?

  This is a topic that I've been fascinated about for decades, because I didn't have money at one point, also I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half.

• 33:49Lewis Howes?

  I couldn't pay for the rent, I didn't buy food, I was just like, living off of her for a year and a half, while I was recovering from a surgery, a wrist that I broke playing football. And I was afraid of it. My father also got into a pretty bad car accident a year prior to me getting injured, where he was kind of that, like, lifeline for me, where he'd give me 100 bucks when I needed it, and paid for things, and just said, "Hey, you know, go live your dreams, and when you're done, we'll figure out what you're gonna do with the job." He got in a car accident, he had extreme head trauma, was in a coma for three months.

• 34:23Jen Sincero?

  My god.

• 34:23Lewis Howes?

  Ended up surviving, but wasn't able to work anymore. So he was physically alive, emotionally and mentally, kind of not here.

• 34:31Jen Sincero?

  Wow.

• 34:31Lewis Howes?

  So he passed, but he was... Seventeen years of him struggling, right, to try to recover. So I had this, you know, father backup to support me financially, in a sense. I mean, just give me a twenty or a hundred bucks here and there. And he was no longer able to do that.

• 34:50Jen Sincero?

  Wow.

• 34:50Lewis Howes?

  So I remember being fascinated by this conversation twenty years ago because I was like, I don't understand it. I don't know how to make it.

• 35:00Lewis Howes?

  Um, I don't know why anyone would give me money. You know, where does my value come from? Like, how am I gonna ask someone for money when I don't even know what skills or values I have?

• 35:08Jen Sincero?

  Right, right, right.

• 35:09Lewis Howes?

  And early on, I started to learn from these, you know, mentors and coaches teaching me about money. And one of them was around the way we speak about money. Because if we are essentially saying this is bad and evil, or I'm not good enough for this, then why would that thing come to us if we think it's bad and evil? We're gonna be rejecting it, or if we don't think we're deserving of it, why would we receive it? Why would we bring it into us?

• 35:35Jen Sincero?

  Right.

• 35:36Lewis Howes?

  And so I had to really shift this conversation, you know, twenty years ago around money and do what you talk about, which is just having more open conversations. Not talking about it like it's this hush-hush thing, but just being more open and conversational and not being so emotionally heightened when you talk about it. And learn from a peaceful place of talking about it. So I love that you have this write a letter to money.

• 36:00Jen Sincero?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Lewis Howes?

  And really, I tell people, like, if you want your money to appreciate, you must appreciate it.

• 36:07Jen Sincero?

  Exactly.

• 36:08Lewis Howes?

  And treat it like you're the greatest lover of your life.

• 36:11Jen Sincero?

  Right, yes.

• 36:12Lewis Howes?

  Treat it like if you want your partner to be investing in you and to be giving you words of affirmation and physical touch and like gifts. If you want all these love languages, then you've got to pour into it, appreciate the partner you're with.

• 36:26Jen Sincero?

  Absolutely.

• 36:27Lewis Howes?

  Tell them how grateful you are every day. Tell them what you love about them, what you see in them. And when you appreciate a person, like you said, or if you appreciate money, it can appreciate in value and come to you in return.

• 36:40Jen Sincero?

  Absolutely. It's energy. And it really, that like, money is currency and currency is energy, like. Like, I had to hear it like 6,000 times before I really got that money is energy. It's a frequency. So when you raise your frequency and get into alignment with it, and that whole alignment thing is all about none of the limiting beliefs, just being in surrender and in alignment and having it flow in. So, at the beginning you asked me what my mom, you know, what my words were. So at first it was, I can't afford it. And then I eventually went to money flows to me easily and freely. And this is still while I was living in the garage, still while I was, you know, so in debt.

• 37:24Jen Sincero?

  But I had started doing all the energy work around it and I was like, alright, what are my blocks? Like, when you write a new mantra, it's all about like really, like the letter to money, like what just kept coming up and that I was stuck and that it was hard and that I didn't know what I was doing. So there was like hard and stuck and confusion. So flowing easily and freely was just like, yeah, even though I did not believe it at first, like it wasn't about believing it, it was about the feeling, because we are emotional creatures and, you know, that emotion, the frequency of emotions was, you know, the flowing, the easily and freely flowing was really, really powerful for me.

• 38:01Lewis Howes?

  So now, when you write a statement or a mantra that you're wanting to step into, but you don't believe it yet.

• 38:07Jen Sincero?

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:08Lewis Howes?

  Is that lying to yourself? Or how do we overcome this thing that, okay, this is what I want and this is what I'm stepping into and the feelings I want to experience, but I don't have it yet. I don't, I don't, and that's not actually true yet.

• 38:19Jen Sincero?

  Okay. I'm just gonna say, if you are not successful at what you want to be successful for and you're feeling stuck, you're already lying to yourself. Because you're buying into the identity that is not in the flow. So that's the lie. So money flowing to me easily and freely, because I live in an abundant universe and I'm a creature who receives, that is the truth. So even though the identity that I'm in is not believing it yet.

• 38:48Jen Sincero?

  It doesn't matter. What matters is that I'm feeling it. So I always tell people, like, you don't have to believe it at first, like, but you have to feel it. So that's why what the words make you feel like are the most important part about it. So ease and free and flow was the most important part of that.

• 39:05Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like, okay, you said you were around 40 years young when this kind of happened. Was there something in your life that was like, I'm just sick and tired of feeling this way after two decades? Or like, I just want to see what's possible for me in this next decade? Or was there something around that time that made you say, all right, this hasn't worked for 40 years of my life?

• 39:24Jen Sincero?

  Yeah.

• 39:25Lewis Howes?

  Now I'm going to try something different.

• 39:27Jen Sincero?

  You know, I think it was, there really wasn't like, I didn't almost get hit by a bus. Or, you know, I just, I, first of all, it's so boring being broke. Like, you can't do anything, right? Really, you can't do anything. So, and, and I think it was just sort of a, it's almost like I ripened, you know? It's almost like, how many times do you hear something before it's the aha moment? You know, why does that suddenly happen? I think you just finally are in a place where you can hear it for some reason. So I had started reading the self-help books and I was really into it. And, you know, I made a bunch of half attempts at like getting my act together. But I think it was just, I think I just ripened and then I made the decision. Like, I think really living in, and it was like a one-car garage.

• 40:12Jen Sincero?

  Like, it was small. And I think after a little while of that, I was like, oh, on, I am 40 years old, you know? I can do better than this.

• 40:22Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 40:23Jen Sincero?

  And so I think I was just so sick of myself, so.

• 40:26Lewis Howes?

  My, my friend Dean Graziosi says, we pay attention to what we pay for. Do you think you making this investment in a coach made you pay attention more to, okay, now I gotta make my money back and I'm going to make more than my money back. So I'm going to focus, I'm going to do all the painful things that she tells me to do. And I'm going to be the best student I can be. Is that what your thought was because you invested?

• 40:52Jen Sincero?

  Definitely, and I will say though is I've had clients pay me lots of money and not do a damn thing. So it's not a guarantee. So that is part of it for sure because I've also given like free coaching sessions to my friends. And it's like the biggest waste of all of our time, right? But um, so I do think that the exchange of money is very, very real. But I think more importantly, your attitude and the decision.

• 41:15Lewis Howes?

  It's deciding.

• 41:16Jen Sincero?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 41:17Lewis Howes?

  Because you can decide to invest, but you're still not committed to taking the action and doing whatever it takes.

• 41:20Jen Sincero?

  Absolutely. And I've been given things for free, especially at that time in my life. Like anything I could get my hands on, I was a straight A student. So the money did have something to do with it, but I was.

• 41:30Lewis Howes?

  But you were also committed in free, pay, whatever.

• 41:32Jen Sincero?

  So ready. No, I was.

• 41:34Lewis Howes?

  You were all in.

• 41:34Jen Sincero?

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 41:35Lewis Howes?

  And before you weren't committed.

• 41:36Jen Sincero?

  Yes, exactly.

• 41:37Lewis Howes?

  Because you had the emotional blocks that were just half.

• 41:40Jen Sincero?

  Yeah. And so I do think it was that sort of, it's sort of like the water hitting the rock. And then it's the Grand Canyon, you know, like reading the self-help books. Like I did, I had started that a couple of years before the garage. So I was sort of priming myself and then finally I was just like, I'll do anything.

• 41:55Lewis Howes?

  Let's do this.

• 41:56Jen Sincero?

  Hit me, yeah.

• 41:57Lewis Howes?

  What was the book that really inspired you the most?

• 42:00Jen Sincero?

  The Science of Getting Rich by Wallace Waddles.

• 42:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's a good one.

• 42:02Jen Sincero?

  I mean, not only because it's like this big because I'm super impatient, but I mean, it's super cryptic. It's like, it's all about the universe being a thinking stuff. And when you impress your thoughts into the thinking stuff, it becomes real and material world. And I just, I just, it really, really, really spoke to me. I read it hundreds of times.

• 42:22Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 42:22Jen Sincero?

  Yes, yeah.

• 42:23Lewis Howes?

  What was the biggest takeaway from that book?

• 42:27Jen Sincero?

  So happy you asked because I'm, I talk about this line all the time is to think what you want to think is to think the truth, regardless of appearances. So this is everything, right? So mindset is everything. So regardless of appearances, regardless of the fact that I'm living in a garage in L.A., driving a car with no grill. Like, those are the appearances, but to think what you want. And I think the want is so key too, because that's your, that's your authenticity. That's not like thinking what other people think you should do and how you should live your life. To think what you want, the purpose that you were put on planet Earth to live out. That's the truth. That is the truth. So your desires are the truth, not what's physically around you.

• 43:10Lewis Howes?

  Wow. So how do we know that we are in harmony and congruency with our desires?

• 43:18Lewis Howes?

  That it's for something not just selfish and self-serving by itself or ego-driven, but more, I don't know, driven by something greater. You know, because if someone says, well, I want to make a lot of money, or I want to make a hundred thousand dollars in a year, or five hundred thousand, or whatever it is, or millions. How do we line up our desires with our authentic selves? So that we don't hurt ourselves in the process of making money? Or become overwhelming, daunting, or draining?

• 43:48Jen Sincero?

  I think you always come back to, is it fun? Does it give me energy or deplete my energy? And does it have meaning? Those are the three things that I'm really living my life by these days. And I think that if you're in alignment with those three things, and other things certainly, but those are sort of my big three.

• 44:10Lewis Howes?

  Is it fun? Does it give me energy? And does it give me meaning?

• 44:13Jen Sincero?

  Yeah, and is it meaningful? Yeah.

• 44:14Lewis Howes?

  Is it meaningful?

• 44:15Jen Sincero?

  Yeah.

• 44:15Lewis Howes?

  I like that.

• 44:16Jen Sincero?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Lewis Howes?

  And where were you at thirty-nine? Doing things that weren't fun? That drained your energy and didn't give you meaning?

• 44:23Jen Sincero?

  Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I was a freelance writer, hustling my butt off. And then like when I really did the math, I was like, the amount of time I spent hustling for this gig, and they don't pay that well, like magazine articles, come on. I was making like, I was probably losing money, quite frankly. So, um, yeah, no, there was, there was none of that. It was not fun. It was exhausting. It had some meaning, but you gotta get all three, you know?

• 44:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, or at least start working towards it. Because you may not be able to at this season, but you gotta focus on, can I, can I get one?

• 44:54Jen Sincero?

  Can I get one? And is it leading in the direction of something that is fun? That is gonna give me energy and has meaning? Because you're right, like when you're building a company or when you're doing something like, it is exhausting. And, but if it's still exciting and fun and has meaning, then yeah, yeah, it doesn't get to be a picnic all the time.

• 45:10Lewis Howes?

  When was the biggest aha moment for you then? Like, was it after you made a certain amount of money? Or a client paid you something? Or was it just a feeling you had, like releasing all of it? In the process of working? Like, when was that moment where you're like, I'm actually emotionally and mentally free around the idea of money?

• 45:28Jen Sincero?

  Oh, interesting. Um.

• 45:31Lewis Howes?

  Maybe I'm not abundant up on money.

• 45:33Jen Sincero?

  No, I will tell you, no, I actually did, and I did put it in You Are a Badass. I put it in one of them. It was when I, I had, oh my God, it was such a cool moment. So, because money is currency and currency is energy, right? So we're really gonna get woo woo with the money.

• 45:49Lewis Howes?

  I like it.

• 45:49Jen Sincero?

  Really shifting the mindset around money and I, and bring me back to my story if I go off on a tangent, because I'm about to go off on a tangent. I want to remember, but I, um.

• 45:59Lewis Howes?

  Money is currency and currency is energy.

• 46:01Jen Sincero?

  Yes, money is currency, currency is energy. And I've had so many clients that have told me, and it's happened to me too, where they manifest when they get into the meditation and they start to raise their frequency.

• 46:11Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 46:11Jen Sincero?

  And they focus on the amount, the exact amount comes in from outer space that you didn't even think of. And so my story is around that where I was working with my coach and we were really gonna shift my money reality. And so she's like, you know, what amount of money would be really great for you to make right now? Like what would have a lot of meaning? And I was like, $10,000, because I'm $10,000 in debt on my credit card and I hate being in debt. She's like, perfect. And so she's like, okay, so how soon are you gonna make it? And she goes, you know, like about a week, two weeks, because I, you know, and I was at the time making like 30 grand a year. I was like, my God, if I made 10,000 in a week, that would be incredible. And I was like, but you know what? I gotta do it in two days because I know myself and I won't keep myself in that frequency. Like I'll lose steam.

• 46:52Jen Sincero?

  And I'll decide that like, nah, it's not, I can't do it or whatever. Like I knew that the stuff would start creeping back in. So I was like, all right, 10 grand in two days. She's like, great. Okay. So how are you gonna do it? At the time I had this little online coaching business that I had just started coaching writers. And I said, I'll get three private clients, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So then we're, you know, putting all the pieces in place. And then she's like, okay, and is there anything else? And I was like, well, you know, there was this guy that I was coaching years ago. He was my first private client. I was charging him like 50 bucks an hour. And I was like, I could also call him and see if he wants to work with me again. And she's like, okay, great. And we're still on the phone and I checked my email and he has written me. I have not thought of this matter, communicated with him in years.

• 47:37Jen Sincero?

  Email, he's like, You know, are you still coaching? Can you help me? When can we start?

• 47:43Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 47:43Jen Sincero?

  And so she's like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna put together a $10,000 package for him and you're gonna sell it to him right now.

• 47:49Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow.

• 47:50Jen Sincero?

  I know, and I was like, no, no.

• 47:52Lewis Howes?

  Like, no.

• 47:53Jen Sincero?

  I was charging him 50 bucks an hour. I was, and I really adore him. He's such a special person. And I was like, felt like, you know, a greedy pig. Blah, blah, blah, all the things. Fraud complex, gigantic.

• 48:06Lewis Howes?

  Imposter syndrome.

• 48:07Jen Sincero?

  Oh, beyond, beyond. And so she's like, and what we'll do is we'll put together $15,000 package and a 10 so that the 10 looks cheap. And I was like, I can't do 15. She's like, all right, 12. Pain in my ass. So did a 12, sent it to him and literally wanted to throw up. I was just like, if he, because I really cared about this guy. He bought the 12.

• 48:26Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow.

• 48:27Jen Sincero?

  I know.

• 48:29Lewis Howes?

  You're like, it should have been a 15.

• 48:30Jen Sincero?

  I know, exactly. I know.

• 48:32Lewis Howes?

  Well, here's the thing, you know, it's not like you were charging him 12,000 an hour. Obviously, you created a position and a packaging of services that would over-deliver, that would serve him in a big way.

• 48:42Jen Sincero?

  I worked with him for five years after that.

• 48:44Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 48:44Jen Sincero?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 48:45Lewis Howes?

  So it's not like, I'm just gonna charge some number and then give very little.

• 48:49Jen Sincero?

  Oh, no.

• 48:50Lewis Howes?

  You made sure that the value was there.

• 48:52Jen Sincero?

  Totally.

• 48:52Lewis Howes?

  How did you learn to package and position your value to be able to charge for what you wanted?

• 48:57Jen Sincero?

  My coach helped me put it all together. But then I had to rise to that frequency. And I'll tell you, you know, when you're charging something that scares the hell out of you, you show up with your A-plus game. Like, and he did too. Like, it was a lot for him too. We knocked it out of the park.

• 49:09Lewis Howes?

  Because you pay attention to what you pay for.

• 49:11Jen Sincero?

  Yes, yes, yeah, totally.

• 49:13Lewis Howes?

  You'll rise to the occasion. Like, I gotta focus.

• 49:15Jen Sincero?

  Yes, yeah.

• 49:15Lewis Howes?

  I gotta show up on time. I gotta deliver the results on time.

• 49:18Jen Sincero?

  Absolutely.

• 49:19Lewis Howes?

  Give my best here.

• 49:20Jen Sincero?

  Yep.

• 49:21Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So now, here's, I'm curious about the next thing. Was that everything to the story first off? I'll make sure I get it.

• 49:28Jen Sincero?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:28Lewis Howes?

  Okay. Money is currency and currency is energy. I'm curious about the next thing. So once this happened and you sold a $12,000 package and you were like, this is crazy and this is more money than I've ever made in my life, essentially, in two days. Did you fall back at any point? Or did you stay focused?

• 49:45Jen Sincero?

  Oh, interesting.

• 49:47Lewis Howes?

  Because sometimes people get an opportunity and they decided and then, well, I tried it again and it didn't work. So maybe this was a fluke, maybe this was a one time.

• 49:57Jen Sincero?

  Right.

• 49:57Lewis Howes?

  The thermometer goes back down to what they're comfortable and familiar with.

• 50:00Jen Sincero?

  Very common, very common. I did not, but only because I continued to get coaching. And I got bigger and bigger and bigger packages. I mean, I was paying six figures by the end.

• 50:11Lewis Howes?

  Hundred grand for like a year of coaching or? Wow.

• 50:14Jen Sincero?

  So I just, because I knew myself, I was like, I am rickety in this whole sort of wealth consciousness department. So I knew that I had, it's like getting a personal trainer, right? So I just kept investing in the coaching and now, now I'm good, but I do still have to work at it. I mean.

• 50:29Lewis Howes?

  It's different levels.

• 50:30Jen Sincero?

  It's different levels, you know?

• 50:31Lewis Howes?

  You feel comfortable at this level, but if you want to break through.

• 50:34Jen Sincero?

  Exactly.

• 50:34Lewis Howes?

  And do something you've never done. It means you've got to have a different frequency still, right?

• 50:38Jen Sincero?

  Exactly. You got, you know, yep, there's always more growth to be had.

• 50:42Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like you're kind of at like a block right now? Because again, you've sold, you know, I don't know, five or 10 million copies of your books. You've got coaching for you, you've got all these success, financial freedom, all these different things. But is there like a level you've reached that you feel like, okay, well, can I break through? There's just so much now and I feel abundant, but could you break through?

• 51:03Jen Sincero?

  If I want, if I could decide what I want the next thing to be at. I'm still in that sort of incubation period of like, what would be fun? Give me energy and that meaning. I'm getting there, like, I definitely feel like I'm getting there and I'm doing a lot of things that meet those requirements in the meantime, but it's not the big.

• 51:20Lewis Howes?

  What's your biggest, what's your biggest fear or insecurity around money right now?

• 51:24Jen Sincero?

  That I don't know what to do with it when I make it. Like, I'm good at making it. My bookkeeper called me one day and she's like, would you please just open a savings account at your bank? Because I had like a million dollars in my checking account. This was a while ago. I finally got my act. So I've hired financial planners, like I've hired people who are grownups who know what they're doing with money, but like I'm teaching myself about it, but I find it boring. I find investing boring and confusing and out of my league. So luckily, there are amazing people who know what they're doing. So I have finally gotten that team together.

• 51:57Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 51:59Jen Sincero?

  And there is a little tiny part of me, if I gave it any attention, that is a little scared it's all gonna go away.

• 52:05Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 52:06Jen Sincero?

  Yeah, but I don't, I'm not, it's not that bad and I probably should not even speak it out loud.

• 52:09Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right. You're being honest about it. I think there's one thing about speaking it out loud so it doesn't happen, but another thing about saying it so it doesn't have power of you.

• 52:18Jen Sincero?

  Right.

• 52:19Lewis Howes?

  You know, it's like if you're afraid of it, like you're afraid to have the conversation around money.

• 52:24Jen Sincero?

  Yeah.

• 52:25Lewis Howes?

  I'm all believer like, don't speak into something in the zis, you don't want that happen. But I think, you know, when I started talking about my fears and my shame and my insecurity, it actually felt like the poison was coming out of me. And now I could see it outside of me, or I could have a conversation with it as opposed to it being in me and afraid to talk about.

• 52:43Jen Sincero?

  Right.

• 52:44Lewis Howes?

  And then I could get coaching about it.

• 52:50Lewis Howes?

  With all the tools and all the distractions and all the social media and all the apps and all the responsibilities that we have in our life, is there a way to multiply time and to become more productive?

• 53:00Rory Vaden?

  Yeah, yeah, there is. So I mean, this is, what you just described was my life. I mean, this is, this was pretty much like all the things we study. I was not trying so much to solve the problem for the world. I was trying to solve a problem in my own life. Just busy, buried, behind, overwhelmed, stressed, frustrated. No matter how fast you work, you just never feel caught up.

• 53:25Lewis Howes?

  No matter how many hours you didn't sleep, you felt tired and you were working sluggish and trying to get it all done, everything.

• 53:32Rory Vaden?

  Yeah, you just can't, there's this frustration of like, am I ever gonna have peace? Like, am I ever gonna have margin? Am I ever gonna have space? And just feeling like things are under control. And so we started looking at this and we started profiling people that at the time we called ultra performers, which were the top one percenters in different industries. And

• 53:52Lewis Howes?

  Is this top 1% earners, top 100% accomplishments?

• 53:56Rory Vaden?

  Yeah, I mean, just what it's kind of use that term loosely, but like, you know, if it's church leaders, it's large, you know, large church leaders. If it's athletes, it's professional athletes. If it's, if it's financial advisors, they're probably top earners.

• 54:08Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 54:08Rory Vaden?

  So it's just from different walks of life. And what we found is there is a new type of thinker that has emerged that is, we call them a multiplier. Because most people are trying to manage time, right? Like you even hear this, you go, I need, you know, I need to be better at managing my time.

• 54:26Lewis Howes?

  Time management.

• 54:27Rory Vaden?

  But you know, what's funny about that is there is no such thing as time management. There is only self-management. You cannot manage time. There's, there, time ticks on second by second. I can't fast forward time. I can't stop it. I can't pause it. And so what we're, what this conversation really about is managing ourselves, managing our decisions, managing our use of time. But even that is, is kind of a, is a first shift that needs to happen is it's not like I'm this helpless victim that is subject to the world around me who is unfairly blasting me with all this stuff. No, you're in charge.

• 55:10Rory Vaden?

  Like you, everything that exists in your life, you either said, you said yes to it in some way. So it is your responsibility and, and you created the problem, but that also means that you are in charge of fixing it, that you have the power to change it. But what we started to realize is that most of what people have learned and think about time management, I went so far and as the opening line in my TED Talk is I said, everything you know about time management is wrong. It's wrong because we have been taught to think about time in a very, you know,

• 55:50Rory Vaden?

  Linear way and the world today is much more like multi-dimensional.

• 55:55Lewis Howes?

  When you mean linear way, do you mean focusing on our priorities?

• 55:58Rory Vaden?

  Yeah, so a little bit about that. So if you if we talk, we love to take people on a quick like history of time management theory. Okay, so era one time management thinking was very one dimensional. We refer to era one thinking as efficiency. So that was the strategy was I got 10 things on my to do list. How do I crank them out faster? And time management and productivity as a body of work really develops like it comes on in the scene in like 1950s, 60s. So, you know, it's the manufacturing era where it's conveyor belts and engineering and just doing things faster. That also reflected in our mindset was how can I be more efficient?

• 56:40Rory Vaden?

  Now, efficiency is good. All things being equal, doing things faster is great. The problem is that there is a point of diminishing returns to using efficiency as your only strategy for productivity.

• 56:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 56:55Rory Vaden?

  Which is that no matter how fast we move, the amount of busy work always expands to fill the amount of time available.

• 57:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:04Rory Vaden?

  So it's more like quicksand. It's just kind of like the faster you go or the more that shows up. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be fast. It's just not going to get you what you're looking for. Then, in the late 80s, Dr. Stephen Covey wrote a book that changed the world. Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I'm sure you're familiar with it and sold tens of millions of copies. And Dr. Covey pretty much single-handedly introduced a new era of time management thought. That we were, you know, the world refers to as prioritizing. But we would classify prioritizing as era two thinking. Which is still to this day, the predominant strategy that most people use in terms of how they think about time.

• 57:48Rory Vaden?

  And so here's what prioritizing is. It's to focus first on what matters most. Super powerful, super relevant. Dr. Covey had this thing called the time management matrix that, you know, he explained of like urgency and importance. And basically, he taught us to score our activities. So that we could reorder them and say, it's not just about getting these done faster. It's saying, hey, item number seven needs to be pushed to item number one. Which is valuable, and so that's super valuable. Prioritizing is as important today as ever before. But what I noticed in my own life, because I was a student of Dr. Covey and several books on time. I mean, there's no shortage of books on time management.

• 58:33Rory Vaden?

  There's no shortage of apps. There's all these tips and tricks and tools and technology that exist to help us with this problem of feeling so busy. And yet, the majority of us are still overwhelmed. Right. So it's like there's something missing. And what we started to notice in these ultra performers that we now refer to as the multipliers is that they are doing a different type of thinking. It's like evolution, like their thinking has evolved. For almost all of them, it was subconscious. They weren't even aware of it. Not even aware of it. It wasn't something that someone taught them to do.

• 59:17Rory Vaden?

  They did it instinctively, you know, like instinctually. They figured out. And most of them couldn't explain it. They couldn't explain it to me, and they couldn't explain it to most people. If they said, "Why are you, how are you so productive?" Right, like, how does, you know, how do you become a billionaire in 10 years? When like, most people work for 40 years and, you know, they can barely retire. Right. It's a different type of thinking. And one of the things, this is true in many areas of our life. The next level of results always requires the next level of thinking. So here's what it is. So era three time management is multiplying.

• 59:59Rory Vaden?

  It's not efficiency, it's not prioritizing, it's multiplying. And it's all based on what we call the significance calculation. So it's really, it's adding on like Dr. Covey's work as an example. So he, you know, presents this two dimensional figure, like a square, where the Y axis is importance and the X axis is urgency. But what multipliers are doing is they're making a third calculation, which we call significance. So it's kind of like, if you were doing algebra, it would be the z-axis. It would turn the square into a cube. Three-dimensional. Three-dimensional thinking. Era-three thinking, or three-dimensional thinking. And so here's the difference.

• 1:00:43Rory Vaden?

  Urgency is how soon does this matter? Most of us live in a world of urgency. It's all about what needs to be done right now. Importance is different. Importance is how much does this matter? But significance is even different still. Significance is how long is this going to matter? So how is, what is the impact of this activity in the future? 10 years out, 20 years out. Even 10 days out, yeah. It's, it's, it is breaking free of the paradigm of one day, and instead thinking about tomorrow and the next day.

• 1:01:26Rory Vaden?

  And the significance calculation changes everything. Because this is how it's possible to multiply time. So I'll just tell you. In one sentence, okay? So if you say, Rory, how is it possible to multiply time? This is the answer. So you want to write this part down? You don't want to miss this. The way you multiply time is by giving yourself the emotional permission to spend time on things today that create more time tomorrow. You do, you do, there's certain things you do right now that create more time in the future. That's the significance calculation. So when I say multiply time, people often think I'm exaggerating,

• 1:02:10Rory Vaden?

  or that it's like a marketing hyperbole, right? As I'm like, I'm sensationalizing a concept. When, when we say this, we're not exaggerating. We mean this literally. Now, it kind of fries your brain because you go, you've been told your whole life, you can't, time is the one thing you can never get back. It's the one thing you can never get more of. And it is true that there's nothing that we can do, there's nothing I can do to give you more time inside of one day. So, one day is finite and we're all limited by the same 24 hours, which by the way is 1,440 minutes or 86,400 seconds. So, I can't teach you to create more,

• 1:02:55Rory Vaden?

  I don't have control over time, right? There's no such thing as time management. There's only self-management. But, that's exactly the problem is most of us think about our activities in the paradigm of one day. We wake up and we say, "What's the most important thing I can do today?" And it's not that that's a bad question. It's just not the question that multipliers ask. Multipliers don't say, "What is the most important thing I can do today?" Multipliers ask, "What are the things I can do today that create more time tomorrow? What are the things I can do now that make the future better?" You're literally breaking free of the urgency paradigm of just what matters right here, right now, and you're introducing the significance paradigm of what is gonna have impact over the long haul.

• 1:03:39Lewis Howes?

  Right. How do you know which actions to focus on urgently that will have impact over the long haul?

• 1:03:46Rory Vaden?

  Yes.

• 1:03:46Lewis Howes?

  When you've got, everything's significant.

• 1:03:49Rory Vaden?

  Yes. So, well, there's a tool called the Focus Funnel that we developed here to help people apply this. So, there's only one big idea in this whole conversation, which is spend time on things today that give you more time tomorrow. That's how you multiply time. Then, and then you go, "How do I do that?" And there's five, five, there's five core methods, strategies. We call them permissions.

• 1:04:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:04:18Rory Vaden?

  Because there's an emotional side. What we've also learned is that most people treat time management logically.

• 1:04:26Rory Vaden?

  But it's actually an emotional conversation. For most of us, it's not just our calendar and our inbox and our to-do list. It is our underlying feelings of guilt and fear and anxiety and worry, as well as ambition and our drive to be successful and feel valued and important and to make, you know, impact in the world. These underlying emotional drivers dictate as much as, dictate how we spend our time and the choices that we make as much as anything on our to-do list.

• 1:05:03Lewis Howes?

  What do we feel most guilty about?

• 1:05:06Rory Vaden?

  We feel most guilty.

• 1:05:08Lewis Howes?

  About not doing something that we want to do, about delaying something, about wasting our time?

• 1:05:12Rory Vaden?

  I would say that guilt, so guilt corresponds with the first of the five permissions, which is eliminate. So if you were to picture a funnel, okay, so if I were to draw this out, right? Like, you think of all of the stuff there is to do comes into the top.

• 1:05:28Rory Vaden?

  And then the focus funnel is our attempt to create a visual illustration that codifies the thought process that multipliers go through intuitively in their own brain, so that the rest of us can kind of like see it and follow it. So the very first question is, can this be eliminated?

• 1:05:48Lewis Howes?

  So give me an example of your life or someone's business or career, or whatever it might be.

• 1:05:53Rory Vaden?

  There's tons of things, I mean, in your personal life, I mean, I like the example of TV, because it's hilarious how people will, in the same dinner conversation, talk about how they're so busy and married and overwhelmed, and then talk about the three series on Netflix that they have binged in like the last month.

• 1:06:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:06:11Rory Vaden?

  And, you know.

• 1:06:12Lewis Howes?

  Which took 20 hours of their life.

• 1:06:13Rory Vaden?

  Yeah, and so it's like, okay, and I'm not saying you shouldn't watch TV. By the way, I'm not telling you anything you shouldn't or shouldn't do. I'm just introducing the framework for you to decide how to spend your time.

• 1:06:23Lewis Howes?

  But if you're saying you're too busy and overwhelmed, check to where you're spending your time the most.

• 1:06:27Rory Vaden?

  That's right. And Nielsen says.

• 1:06:30Lewis Howes?

  If it's six hours on Instagram a day and you're not being, you know, not creating something of significance and you're just browsing, or if you're 20 hours a week on TV and you're, I'm overwhelmed and tired and exhausted, then just look at where you're spending your time.

• 1:06:42Rory Vaden?

  Yeah, and Nielsen ratings, you know, this was, this is from a few years ago, but they said the average American watches 27 hours a week of television.

• 1:06:50Lewis Howes?

  A week?

• 1:06:50Rory Vaden?

  A week. It's a part-time job, so...

• 1:06:53Lewis Howes?

  27 hours a week, how much is that a day?

• 1:06:56Rory Vaden?

  I mean, so, you know, seven, seven times, it's like four hours a day.

• 1:07:00Lewis Howes?

  Four hours a day of TV?

• 1:07:02Rory Vaden?

  It's like four hours a day. That's a ton.

• 1:07:04Lewis Howes?

  That's a lot of time.

• 1:07:05Rory Vaden?

  I mean, you could build a big side hustle in a couple hours every day, legit.

• 1:07:09Lewis Howes?

  Even if you just cut half of that down, and you watch two hours a day of TV, and you spend two hours on your side hustle, or something else, your health, your relationships, imagine the benefits you would have down the line.

• 1:07:22Rory Vaden?

  So, yeah, there's, anything, eliminate is the first opportunity to multiply, because anything I say no to today creates time in the future. How? It's preventing me from doing something that I would have otherwise been doing had I not given myself the permission to eliminate, like had I not said no. So basically, this is, is saying no, and people really struggle with saying no. In businesses, this happens all the time. People have all these, so, you know, at Brand Builders Group, we do personal brand strategy, right? So we're coaching all these, like, people on building and monetizing their personal brand. Well, they have like 100 business models. It's like, oh, I want to have a video course, and a membership site, and a live event, and consulting, I want to do keynote speaking,

• 1:08:06Rory Vaden?

  and, and I want to get a book deal, and, and, you know, and sponsorships, and brand deals, and, and it's like, when you have diluted focus, you get diluted results. So, you have to, by saying no to some things, you power your ability to focus on the few significant things

• 1:08:25Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:08:26Rory Vaden?

  that will multiply time. So you, you have to say, you have to say no. But this is something that people struggle with.

• 1:08:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:33Rory Vaden?

  I struggle with it, you know?

• 1:08:35Lewis Howes?

  Well, especially when you get to a certain level of success, where there's a lot of opportunities, and cool things, and exciting things, and new shiny objects, we want to do lots of things.

• 1:08:45Rory Vaden?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:46Lewis Howes?

  High achievers, people that have gotten out of the weeds of their life, and they have different problems, which are opportunity problems. Again, first world problems. It's how do you focus your time and energy and making the decisions that you want to focus on now for your future? And that is a challenge in just making decisions. Decision fatigue is a thing for people. And learning how to place importance on the things that you want to spend your time on is going to be key for you.

• 1:09:14Rory Vaden?

  Totally, and a lot of people, the decision fatigue, what happens is they, it does wear on you. And so, a lot of people don't make conscious decisions. So, what happens is-

• 1:09:24Lewis Howes?

  They make what, emotional decisions, reaction decisions?

• 1:09:26Rory Vaden?

  Yes, their unconscious emotional impulses, right? And if you're not consciously saying no to the things that don't matter, you end up unconsciously saying no to the things that do matter.

• 1:09:38Lewis Howes?

  What if everything matters to you?

• 1:09:40Rory Vaden?

  So, you know, that's what I said, actually. So, I, in, so we were, you know, this became the Procrastinate on Purpose book. So, this was my second book. When we're profiling all these people, I was doing interviews. And I told one of the multipliers, I said, "I don't like this one. I got to where I am by being a yes man, by like doing a lot of things and doing them well and like saying yes to meetings and meeting people all the time." And they said, "Rory, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard." And I was like, "Oh, okay." And here's what they said. They said, "You're trying to go through life without saying no, which is admirable because you're a nice, you're a nice guy.

• 1:10:23Rory Vaden?

  But what you failed to realize is that you are always saying no to something. Anytime you say yes to one thing, you simultaneously are saying no to an infinite number of other things."

• 1:10:36Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:10:37Rory Vaden?

  So, even when you think you're saying, "Yes, everything is important to me." No, nothing is important to you. Nothing is important enough for you to focus on. And you don't have a method for, for focus. And focus is power. So, that, most of us are losing because we're wandering, we're meandering through a bunch of insignificant trivial tasks, feeling productive, when really, we're just diluted.

• 1:11:04Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:11:05Rory Vaden?

  So, if you, that's the first one, eliminate. Now, if you can't eliminate the task, then it drops down to the center of the focus funnel, which is automate. The permission to invest.

• 1:11:19Rory Vaden?

  And this is so powerful because anything you create a process for today saves you time in the future.

• 1:11:28Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:11:29Rory Vaden?

  Now, if I set up a process for it, or a system, or if I write code, you know, there's a lot of automation, like actual technologies and things that you can deploy. If I take the time to set it up today, then tomorrow, the system or the process is doing the thing instead of me. So it's multiplying time. Now, here's the challenge, is that most of us are aware that those tools exist. But if you ask someone, Louis, I mean, like if you ask the average business owner, you know, whatever, achiever, somebody pursuing greatness, are you aware of tools and systems and processes and technologies that you could implement,

• 1:12:14Rory Vaden?

  or deploy, or improve inside of your goals that would automate things? They would all say yes. But if you said, "Why haven't you done it yet?" What do you think they'd say?

• 1:12:28Lewis Howes?

  It takes too much time.

• 1:12:29Rory Vaden?

  It takes too much time.

• 1:12:30Lewis Howes?

  It's easier to do it myself right now, just a couple of minutes every day, as opposed to

• 1:12:35Rory Vaden?

  Building a system.

• 1:12:36Lewis Howes?

  Figuring out the system, figuring out the software, learning it, going through the training, hiring someone, teaching them, all the time and energy. I might as well just do it myself right now.

• 1:12:44Rory Vaden?

  Bingo. Yeah, so it's like, it's so ironic because the two excuses we would use for why we haven't automated things is we would say, either I don't have the time, or I don't have the

• 1:12:57Lewis Howes?

  Patience?

• 1:12:57Rory Vaden?

  Money. The money. Patience, we'll talk about in a second.

• 1:13:01Lewis Howes?

  I don't have the time or the money.

• 1:13:03Rory Vaden?

  I don't have the time or the money. And it's wild because those two excuses we would use for not automating something are exactly the opposite of how it is when you make the significance calculation.

• 1:13:16Lewis Howes?

  Because if you did automate, you would save time, or you'd multiply time, and you'd earn more money

• 1:13:21Rory Vaden?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:22Lewis Howes?

  from your time doing something else.

• 1:13:23Rory Vaden?

  Yeah, so an easy example is bill pay. You know, it's a quick example. Right? So if you had two hours open in your day today, and I said, "Louis, you know, what's the most important thing you could do today?" You'd have a list of things that you would do. And if I said, "Hey, I think you should consider setting up online bill pay." For most of us, we would be like, "No, like, that is not important. That's not significant. That is, seems totally trivial." Mm-hmm. But if you look at this the way a multiplier would, you go, "Okay, if you spend two hours today setting up online bill pay, and it saves you 30 minutes every month from paying your bills in the future,

• 1:14:05Rory Vaden?

  then after four months' time, you will have broken even, 30, 30, 30, 30. You will have broken even on those initial two hours. And then every month thereafter, you'll get something that we call R-O-T-I, return on time invested. Because now the system is doing the thing that you would have otherwise been doing." Another way that we say this, I know this is one of your favorite Rory-isms, is that automation is to your time exactly what compounding interest is to your money. Right. Automation is to your time what compounding interest is to your money. Just like compounding interest takes money and it turns it into more money.

• 1:14:50Rory Vaden?

  Automation takes time and it turns it into more time. Right. Just like, nobody has extra money to invest. I mean, not nobody, there's, some people are so rich, it's like, that's all they do. But the average person doesn't have, you know, an extra 10 grand just laying around to be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna invest it." Usually, you have to sacrifice something in the short term. You don't go on a trip, you don't buy the car, you don't buy the TV. And that is where you create the margin to reinvest into, you know, whatever, the stock market, mutual funds, like- Real estate. Real estate, whatever you do. That is also how time is. Nobody has extra time to set up a system. You know, marketing automation is one of the big things we teach our clients. I know you guys do a lot of it here.

• 1:15:34Rory Vaden?

  We're experts in marketing automation. One of the reasons we became experts in it is we realized, "Oh, my gosh, if I can build a funnel, you know, which is just a sequence, a series of emails and, you know, automating trust, basically, giving value to people, then that system basically becomes like an employee for me that works 24 hours a day, seven days a week, is always out there."

• 1:16:03Lewis Howes?

  I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneymeasibook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to the next episode on the School of Greatness.

• 1:16:44Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:17:28Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.