Pod Insights The School of Greatness The Hidden Cost of Winning Too Much | Mikaela Shiffrin About this episode Mikaela Shiffrin was throwing up before almost every race, drowning in performance anxiety no one could see. The world's winningest alpine skier reveals why thinking about winning made her lose, how her mom taught her to master the mental game, and why she didn't want to break the all-time wins record. She won a race by three seconds after an injury and the world called her slow for only winning the next one by seven tenths. Shiffrin opens up about the choking sensation that triggered her gag reflex, the sports psychologists who helped her reframe fear, and why she hopes people debate the greatest of all time forever. This is about the gap between external success and internal struggle and what it takes to stay human under superhuman pressure. Mikaela on YouTubeMikaela on InstagramIn this episode you will:Recognize why refusing a title can be more powerful than claiming itDiscover why focusing on outcomes sabotages performanceLearn how to transform crippling anxiety into competitive fuelUnderstand the difference between pressure you create and pressure others imposeMaster the art of staying present when the stakes are highestFor more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1889For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Lindsey VonnShaun WhiteAllyson Felix Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:03 Lewis Howes? Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.
0:27 Lewis Howes? What is the Olympics like? Was that the dream for you growing up?
0:30 Speaker 02 No, I'm well, there was a part of my dream. I did like, I had a little notebook when I was younger that was like, I want to, I'm going to be Olympic champion. I think it was that something was like, I'm going to be the youngest Olympic gold medalist in history. And that actually did happen, but.
0:48 Lewis Howes? 15, 15, 16, how old were you?
0:50 Speaker 02 I was, I was 18.
0:52 Lewis Howes? 18.
0:52 Speaker 02 18. I was the youngest fallen gold medalist.
0:55 Lewis Howes? Sure.
0:55 Speaker 02 So there's an asterisk on that, but that was one thing I wrote like in a journal, but really mostly my goals had nothing to do with the Olympics. Like my goal was always, I want to be the best skier in the world. I always looked up to Bodie Miller.
1:08 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
1:08 Speaker 02 As my big idol and he was like, at the time, you know, he won the overall globe. He was winning individual races. He was like, and he was inspiring people. And one of my favorite movies of all time was his documentary Flying Downhill, which is like, I don't even know, I don't know if you can buy it somewhere now. Like I don't, I would literally want to go back and watch it again, but I'm not really sure where to find it because I had it on a DVD and I don't like have a way to play it anymore. But that was like my most inspiring, he really inspired me to truly be, want to be a ski racer.
1:42 Lewis Howes? Really?
1:42 Speaker 02 He's like the reason I identified myself at eight years old as a ski racer and I just.
1:48 Lewis Howes? Did you watch him on TV or in the Olympics? Or where did you see him?
1:51 Speaker 02 I watched him on TV. I watched him on, we had, we would get these DVDs every year. It's called like World Cup winning runs and it's, you know, it's produced by US Ski and Snowboard and it's like the, the crazy ski fanatics, like whatever, like your how to videos and things like that. But it was just a compilation of all the season's best winning runs. And my parents used to get those DVDs and I would watch them and it was like all Bodie's runs and it's just amazing. And then, you know, during the Olympics as well and.
2:27 Speaker 02 But it wasn't, I think maybe what helped me sort of steer away from having the big, big Olympic dream was actually seeing some of what he experienced through the Olympics. What was that? He had great, great successes. He got the medals and everything. And, and he also had like the terrible Olympics that like, I wish I could, I wish I could have gotten into his mind and known what was going on for him at the time. If it was about pressure, if it was about this or that, or if he just didn't really care because he was the kind of athlete who's like, I don't care about the one medal. I like, I want to experience whatever it is that feels fulfilling in that moment. And it might not be winning the Olympic medal.
3:12 Speaker 02 It might be like just experiencing the Olympic like scene in a different way. And people always have an opinion and judge it and get right into it. And I saw that as a child, as a child, and it was like, I don't want to ever have to deal with something like that. Like do your thing. Why do people have to have an opinion about it? Right. And the opinion itself is like adds pressure and that makes it harder. I feel like that sort of watching him go through the, the successes he had and the challenges that he faced gave me some insight into like my own philosophy and what I find
3:52 Speaker 02 important in skiing, which is it's literally just about like, it's, it's kind of so boring, but it's just about the turn and making really good turns. Interesting. So it's like, when you talk about the process and stuff, and I know that gets, I feel like in sports, people really, really want to hear about like your goals that you want to be the greatest of all time, like the Michael Jordan story, like the, I know you're going to be NBA champion, like you're going to do this, you're going to be the greatest and all of the hype and the pressures built up. And then he does it and it's like greater than, and I've always been like, I don't think I'm going to do any of this. I really just want to be a very good skier and ski well and ski fast.
4:35 Speaker 02 And maybe someday I can kind of be the best in the world. And if I can do that, maybe I'll hold on to it. And now it's been like 12 years of racing World Cup where I've been more or less at the top level. And it's still like, I'm still in disbelief, but I still, I always still go back to. The days watching like my greatest idols like Bodie Miller and Yannick Zekoslitsch and Anya Perisic and all of these, these athletes that I looked up to. And
5:04 Speaker 02 I don't know, I just like you see the struggle that they have and you see it from an outsider's perspective. And then now having gone through a lot of that and seeing it from the insider's perspective, we all feel it and experience it differently, but
5:18 Lewis Howes? Feel what? The pressure?
5:19 Speaker 02 The pressure or the failure or the success, whatever it is like.
5:26 Speaker 02 Everybody's inspired by something different. So some athletes, there are some athletes out there who literally can win races just because they want to be, they just want to win it. Like just thinking, I want to win this race gives them the right mindset and the right intensity that they just, they do, they win it. And when I think I want to win, I never win.
5:48 Lewis Howes? Really?
5:49 Speaker 02 Never ever. If I'm thinking about
5:51 Lewis Howes? You rarely lose.
5:52 Speaker 02 Yeah. If I'm thinking about winning, I will not win the race.
5:54 Lewis Howes? Come on.
5:54 Speaker 02 It's happened. It's almost like 100% of the time.
5:56 Lewis Howes? So what do you need to think about?
5:58 Speaker 02 I have to think about like the intensity of my skiing or like I have to think about racing the course versus winning. It always has to be like what's happening between the start and the finish line, not what's going to happen after the finish.
6:11 Lewis Howes? Wow.
6:12 Speaker 02 And that's, I don't know, it's kind of, it's a little bit, I feel like it's a little bit corny, but it's so, it's like
6:20 Lewis Howes? You gotta focus on
6:21 Speaker 02 Without fail.
6:22 Lewis Howes? You gotta focus on the next turn.
6:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, the next turn. Like the process of getting to the finish that what is what allows you to win the race. And I, that's, that's where my mindset has to be.
6:32 Lewis Howes? What do you struggle with managing more? Overcoming failure or having all the success?
6:41 Speaker 02 Oh, I mean, I feel like it's been, I've gone through phases. I mean, I'm only 28, but I have gone like I could sum my career up so far in different phases. In the beginning, it was
6:56 Speaker 02 It was almost like there wasn't pressure. I didn't really have, I had success pretty early, but it was always like, this is so surreal. I wonder if it's even real. It might be a dream.
7:07 Lewis Howes? Because you're the young one on the circuit.
7:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm young and people keep expecting it to not happen. I kept exceeding expectations and my expectations were so high. I didn't care about anybody else's and, and then, you know, that's like the first three to four years of my career. And then I started to, like, then I had my first season where I sort of, I did struggle and I struggled a little bit more, um, like finding, the fine tuning of my ski equipment and different things and my first struggles with my coach at that time. And I like when things weren't really clicking. I was, I might be the luckiest skier of all time that I got, that things clicked for me earlier than they do for most other athletes. I feel like that's really important is you have to, you have to click with the equipment you have. You have to click with the coaches
7:53 Speaker 02 you have. People have to be on the same page and the same mindset and the same goals. And for the first three, four years of my career, I had that. I almost, like, I almost didn't have to try. Grant, like, part of that was because my mom traveled with me as one of my coaches as well. And she, like, she fought battles for me. She helped to make it click, but, um, and she still does. But that, like, there are so many of these different variables that have to go into place, fall into place, or I don't know, be forced into place. That goes beyond just making good turns. And then when that came down to my job, which was literally just making good turns, I could do it. And so then I started having success early on.
8:37 Speaker 02 And it was just like, people were like, this is not real. This can't keep happening. And then it did. And then it was like, everybody caught up. And the, the media and public and just everybody watching caught up to, it was, it was a season I had, I actually got injured, but, um, I was out, it was June 15. Um.
9:01 Speaker 02 Two thousand, the 2014, 2015, yeah, 2014, 2015 season. And I got injured like December 2014. And then I came back February 2015. So I was like out for a good chunk of the season, but I had an MCL strain and a tibial plateau fracture. Um, and then a bone bruise, which was probably the thing that like ends up holding everybody back the longest. There's surprisingly little research on bone bruising, but anyway, that's a totally different topic. Um, so when I came back to skiing, I kind of focused more on just slalom. But that season was insane because I, I started out the season in October.
9:43 Speaker 02 And the first two races of the season were these two slaloms, um, in Aspen. And I, I won, I, that was, I reset the record for the great, the largest margin of victory in a World Cup.
9:58 Lewis Howes? How many seconds?
9:58 Speaker 02 It was three, over three seconds, which is like, I mean, we, we've win races, lose races by literally one hundredth of a second. And that's typical time differences.
10:13 Speaker 02 Two tenths, three tenths is big, five tenths is like insurmountable. And then if you're getting over that, like people dream of winning a race by maybe a second. And I won this race by three seconds. I was like, I don't really, I don't know what just happened.
10:29 Lewis Howes? After an injury?
10:30 Speaker 02 That was before the injury. So then it was the next race series that we went to where I got injured. And then when I came back, um, in February,
10:43 Speaker 02 I kind of focused on just the solemn races for the rest of the season. I did some giant solemn races, but it was just like mostly focused on solemn. And I think my average.
10:58 Speaker 02 It was like my average time margin of victory for the whole season was over two seconds. So every, pretty much every single race besides one, I, I won by over two seconds.
11:09 Lewis Howes? That's crazy.
11:10 Speaker 02 And then the one race was my comeback race. It was five tenths or something. And that, that season is like the worst thing that happened to me because it set everyone's expectations that I was now going to win every race by over two seconds for the rest of my career. So I came back the next season or, you know, when, finished the season, you have your summer period training, blah, blah, blah. First race of the season was in Fin- Finland for 2015, 16, and I won it by seven tenths, six tenths of a second.
11:42 Lewis Howes? She's slowing down.
11:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, yes. So everyone was like, are you worried the competition's getting so much better? Are you getting worse? And it was this whole, it was a weird, weird thing where I'd never, I'd never experienced a victory where people put such a negative spin on it. And that was, that like then set me into the next phase of my career, which was a lot of like
12:08 Speaker 02 performance anxiety.
12:09 Lewis Howes? Really?
12:10 Speaker 02 And it all surrounded around like what media would say, what people around me would say. And not the closest people, but even then, like even those closest to me would be like, oh, it'd be so great if you could just like stomp on this race. Like if you could win it by a second too. So like, we want to get back there. And, and I get it. I just was like, I don't.
12:36 Lewis Howes? You're doing the best you can do.
12:37 Speaker 02 I'm doing the best I can. I don't think we're there. Like, I actually think the competition is much stronger. And
12:47 Speaker 02 what like that happened, that was a moment in time or a season in time. And I don't think we're going to be in a place where I win races by two seconds anymore. And, but that expectation that then lasted, it's like a four, it's like a four to five year delay. Like took people four to five years to catch up to the expectations I set in the beginning of my career. And then it took them four to five years to figure out that that might not be the, what's going to happen all the time. It's just, it was just weird. So there's this phase where I was puking at the start of every.
13:19 Lewis Howes? Really?
13:21 Speaker 02 Oh, terrible.
13:22 Lewis Howes? Every race.
13:23 Speaker 02 Almost every race.
13:26 Lewis Howes? Just because of anxiety.
13:27 Speaker 02 Because of anxiety.
13:28 Lewis Howes? Was it more worried about what the people closest to you were to say, what the media were gonna say?
13:32 Speaker 02 It was media. It was like fear of, fear of losing, more just fear of what disappointment comes when you don't exceed the expectations. I'd been really used to kind of exceeding people's expectations and then, and then it was like, I'm still winning, but just winning alone isn't good enough anymore. I actually have to win by more. And if I'm gonna exceed people's expectations, now I need to make winning by two seconds, three seconds a regular thing.
14:03 Lewis Howes? That's a lot of pressure.
14:05 Speaker 02 I mean, it is and it isn't. It's sort of, it's so much that it's like, it's not realistic. And I knew it at the time, but I didn't know how to explain that. And it just, like, it's taken me a long time to get the point, to this point now where I just realized that people will catch up. And I also realized, like, during that period of time, you know, after every race, we go through the mix zone and there's, go through all the media. And I felt like the media was directing questions in a very negative way. If I didn't win by a certain amount, or if I had a really, like, strong reaction one race, they were like, why is this one so much more important to you? And, and those are all fair questions.
14:49 Speaker 02 My mind would go there if I was them as well. But I would really answer, I would take their questions so literally and answer to that. And now I realize, people still do that. They kind of try to get into your mind and they say, they ask a question, but it's insinuates that you feel a certain way, instead of just asking how you feel, or sometimes...
15:13 Speaker 02 And there's nothing wrong with it. Honestly, it's just like if you ask the same question over and over, and you want to word it a different way. And sometimes, sometimes a reporter might ask like, you know, is it really disappointing that you came in second this race? This was, this was this season when it was the 85th, the, okay, so there were two slalom races in a row in the Czech Republic. And I won the first one. That was my 85th victory. And then the second day, everybody was thinking this is going to be your 86th. And it for like, for everyone around me, it was a done deal. And I was not there. And
15:54 Lewis Howes? Mentally, emotionally.
15:55 Speaker 02 Mentally, emotionally. I was just, I was tired. It was a really, really long stretch of races. I raced seven days, seven races in 10 days and with travel, like literally across Europe.
16:07 Lewis Howes? It's just as much emotionally draining as it is physically.
16:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
16:10 Lewis Howes? Because you have to mentally and emotionally prepare.
16:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
16:13 Lewis Howes? For hours before every race.
16:14 Speaker 02 Racing is probably more mentally and emotionally draining. Physically, you're prepared for really whatever it can get.
16:20 Lewis Howes? You've been training so hard.
16:21 Speaker 02 Yeah. And then they all just get intertwined. And then you're like, why don't my muscles work anymore? I just, and sometimes all I need is just one day, one recovery day. And then I'm literally back to it. But I just.
16:32 Lewis Howes? Back to back was tough.
16:33 Speaker 02 Yeah. The bat, those back to back races. This was, this was the last race series before world championships this season. And I was like, on a low, just drained. But, but I was having a good time. I loved racing. I, I won the first run of the second race. And I was, so I was, went last on the second run. I was in the lead the whole way down. And I lost the lead in the last part of the course. And I, I lost the race by seven hundredths of a second, or something like that, to one of, Lena Dura, competitor who was an amazing human. Like she dessert, she skied so well. She's. She's been, it's, she was on the podium for like some of my very, very first podiums of my career.
17:17 Speaker 02 And she struggled and then had injuries. She's come back. Like, she deserved it. And I didn't have any questions about that. But for sure, people were thinking, this could have been 86. Like, this would have been the record matching performance. And you could have done it here at the scene of your very first World Cup race when you were 15 years old. Like, it would have been fateful. The whole thing. It was all of this, the puzzle piece. It was all fitting together.
17:47 Lewis Howes? A pressure, yeah.
17:47 Speaker 02 And then it didn't happen.
17:48 Lewis Howes? Right.
17:48 Speaker 02 And I, I was like, if people were asking this, I was like, I am so excited for Lena. I mean, I get it. It's not 86. Okay. What did, like, whatever. But I'm so happy for her. And I'm so excited about my race yesterday. And I'm actually really happy about how I skied most of it today. And I'm looking forward to work. Like, I started to use this, this kind of positive reframing of the questions about how I really felt. And the, it was like wild how the, the mood around me shifted from being like, walking on eggshells. Is she disappointed? What's gonna happen? You know, is she gonna cry? Is she gonna throw a fit? I'm like, um, I'm good.
18:33 Lewis Howes? Right.
18:34 Speaker 02 And everybody was like, oh, okay. We can celebrate the second place too. That's cool. And I, I just realized how much more control I have than I ever knew before of like the closest people around me and their moods. I can help them. Like, I can help them feel okay. If, if I don't win a race, they feel like it's their fault because they didn't do the work they did to prepare me. But sometimes it's not on them. Sometimes it's just, like, the factors don't come together in the right way and the other athletes skied better. And like, it took a long time for me to realize that it wasn't, it's not just me disappointing them. It's also they're afraid of disappointing me.
19:16 Speaker 02 And it goes, the, like, the coaches want to do their best. They want to see me win because they care. Some people want to see me lose because they're sick of seeing me win. And that's like, there's this whole dynamic, this whole like culture in there. And you have to really, you have to kind of figure out. How to separate those things, I guess.
19:36 Lewis Howes? Wow. Speaking of coaching, where would you be without great coaching in your career and in your life?
19:43 Speaker 02 Nowhere. I'm not, yeah. No, my whole life is like,
19:48 Speaker 02 I've been really lucky with my coaches. Starting off with my parents, my first coaches in my life, they both taught me how to ski. And like I said, my mom, she's been my coach since I was, since I learned how to ski, but she traveled with me my first year in the World Cup. She still travels with me now. And she is like, people have a bit of a
20:11 Speaker 02 misunderstanding because they, it's like a frustrating thing for her and for me. People will go up to her and be like, when are you going to stop following Michaela around? Like, what do you do all day when she's skiing? Like, she's on the hill. She's setting, she's helping set the courses. She sets some of the courses herself. She videos, she's like pulling fence, setting fence. She does, she's literally, she's a ski coach. She's just employed by me, not the US Ski Team.
20:37 Lewis Howes? Right.
20:38 Speaker 02 So people like have a hard time wrapping their heads around it. And some of her friends even will be like, come on, like, come hang out with me more. Michaela's fine. And they don't realize how much of an impact she has on my career. And like my mental stability and just being able to exist in Europe for six or seven months at a time without being home, without being,
21:01 Speaker 02 like, I'm fairly familiar with most of Europe, we are up now, but you're still not home.
21:05 Lewis Howes? Right.
21:06 Speaker 02 You know?
21:06 Lewis Howes? Right, right.
21:07 Speaker 02 And that's something like trying to like inception people's minds. They get it, so they stop asking her those questions because she's like, ah, there's nothing like everyone around you making you feel like you're completely inconsequential and someone is like in your daughter's career. And who is she to say that she's like important, but I'm the one who says it. And it's like, oh.
21:31 Lewis Howes? Wow.
21:31 Speaker 02 Anyway, so.
21:32 Lewis Howes? Sure.
21:34 Speaker 02 So she's a very important coach.
21:35 Lewis Howes? So what's the biggest lesson your, your mom has taught you?
21:39 Speaker 02 Okay, there's a lot. And this might not be the actually most important lesson, but
21:45 Speaker 02 pretty early on, she and my dad
21:50 Speaker 02 kind of set this philosophy that like,
21:56 Speaker 02 Things are worth doing. I don't know how to put this. It's more fun to do things if you can do them well. And there's a way to do them well so that it's fun. And it comes with like a methodical approach and studying and learning. And this could be with school. It could be like math is more fun when you understand it and it takes a little work to understand it. But then it's then it's like doing a puzzle that's actually fun. Or soccer, growing up with my brother, he's two years older, two and a half years older than I am. And we both, you know, we both wanted to play soccer and try out for the local travel team in New Hampshire. And it was a really good team and like we needed to practice.
22:40 Speaker 02 And my mom like helped us. She she got the books and some DVDs and we would study like different drills and soccer move, like things we could learn and the Maradona and all these like fun tricks. And and just like learn how to juggle a soccer ball, like the basics of that. Learn how to dribble properly, learn how to like, then you practice working on speed. You practice running technique, all of those things. And it was a step by step like fundamentals. And we would, we worked on that in the summer and then we'd go back to our team in the fall. And especially my brother's coach, he was like, okay, Taylor is a Cinderella story of soccer. Because he had a growth spurt the year before.
23:25 Speaker 02 He grew a foot and a half.
23:27 Lewis Howes? Wow.
23:27 Speaker 02 And he literally, he like lost the ability to run. And my mom brought him back. She taught him how to run again. She got him like coordination. She like bought him a unicycle to practice balance and all of these different things like ways. Cause his whole, his whole goal was to get back on the team with his buddies. And he came back and he ended up being the fastest runner on the team. And his ball handling skills were like light years improved from what they were. And his coach was like, this isn't, this is unbelievable. I've never seen something like this happen when a kid grows a foot and a half. And it takes longer to get your coordination back than that. And my mom's like, yeah, well, that's what happens when you like work at it.
24:10 Lewis Howes? Sure.
24:11 Speaker 02 But it was all fun stuff too, like all summer long. Taylor and I would just play soccer together. And and with skiing, it's the same. I mean, it's all like. You learn the different skills and the fundamentals and tennis too. Tennis, something we love and it's so much fun to do it when you're playing well. And it actually stinks when you're not playing well. So that's kind of our, that's like a little bit of a family philosophy. And my mom just happens to be like the greatest teacher that I know. She just knows how to break down movements and explain it in a way that makes sense that people can learn. Like Taylor and I have a joke that she will
24:56 Speaker 02 see somebody struggling on the ski hill and someone we don't know, just like someone, the public just skiing. She'll see them struggling, can't make it down a trail and she'll go over to them and help them. And it's like five, it's like the five minute crash course in how to become a world cup skier. And by the end of that literal five minutes, getting down to the bottom of the trail, they're arcing turns and like enjoying it. I mean, for like, this is literally the difference between people doing the sport and not doing the sport. Because it's brutal if you can't make it down the hill. And it is so fun if you know how to like carve some turns and you can get down. And that's like the motto of life.
25:35 Lewis Howes? What did she teach you during those that season or seasons of high pressure with the media or not winning as fast or losing every once in a while? What did she teach you about managing stress, anxiety, overwhelm and that psychological pressure?
25:53 Speaker 02 Well, she actually encouraged me to start talking to a sports psychologist. And she set me up with somebody that we knew, actually a family friend, but also a psychologist and
26:09 Speaker 02 she, like for a long time, I felt like I don't need a sports psychologist because I am actually very mentally stable and
26:16 Lewis Howes? And you're winning.
26:17 Speaker 02 And I'm winning and I'm strong and I just, I've never felt pressure. I not never, but I didn't, pressure wasn't something like, I didn't really get nervous for the first bunch of years in my career. And
26:29 Lewis Howes? You were just having fun.
26:30 Speaker 02 I was just having fun, even at the Olympics and the Sochi Olympics and standing at the start for the gold medal run.
26:40 Speaker 02 I was not nervous. Part of that, like I was pretty sick, so it might've been a little bit distraction, but.
26:48 Speaker 02 I was just like, pretty, not even confident, just like at peace.
26:54 Lewis Howes? Really?
26:54 Speaker 02 Yeah. And then I got into a phase where I got really nervous. I didn't know how to handle it. And my mom, she'd, she'd help me focus on things that were in my control. Like she'd help me focus on skiing, the skiing, the technical aspects and just things that I can control, I could control.
27:14 Lewis Howes? As opposed to media or conversations or other athletes or?
27:18 Speaker 02 Or just like the, the random blips and thoughts that you get in your head throughout a race day. You know, race day is, it's wild, actually, in, in ski racing especially. It's, it's a nine to 10 hour day from the time you get out of bed to the time you get back to your hotel room after the race is over. And during that period of time, you have two minute long intervals that are actually important. And the rest of it, in 10 hours, the rest of it is sort of inconsequential.
27:53 Speaker 02 But also very important. But those two minutes, you need to be on and good. And it's like, sometimes you're like, how do I manage this? And your mind goes everywhere.
28:05 Lewis Howes? How do you prepare for those?
28:06 Speaker 02 How do you prepare for it? How do you get through it? You, literally, your brain is like, the thoughts that run through my head on a race day, it's like, I don't know how to ski this, I don't, I don't know, the combination in a slalom court, like this flush or I don't, in a downhill, oh my gosh. Downhill is crazy. My mind goes totally wild. Cause you're, you're going like something between 60 to 80 um, at any given moment. And then you're going off these jumps and some of them carry pretty far. Like, women's races are typically around 20 to 40 meters. But there are some jumps where, like I've gone 50, 55 meters.
28:47 Speaker 02 And I, ever since I was little, I had a kind of scary accident going off of a jump. And ever since then, I have like recurring images of myself falling off of a jump, like crashing backwards, hitting my head, helmet flies off, like my limbs are flinging around. And that is, in a downhill without fail, when I see a jump, I'm like,
29:12 Speaker 02 I know that's not gonna happen because I know what the technique needs to be. I'm solid in the air, but I have to like breathe and like focus myself. And I'll literally be in the course, racing it, skiing up to the jump, imagining myself messing it up.
29:27 Lewis Howes? Really?
29:27 Speaker 02 Until the moment I go off and I'm like, no, now or never. Like you better do it right. Yeah.
29:35 Lewis Howes? What has the sports psychologist taught you about how to not fully eliminate the memory of pain from the past of falling or potentially falling or whatever it might be? But how to know that's happened before. So you're not reckless, but also be at peace, knowing you've mastered skills to be prepared for this moment.
29:56 Speaker 02 Yeah. Um, well, now I've worked with since, since that first, that first season where I started working with a sports psychologist, I've now worked with several different psychologists, couple of different sports psychologists, and now actually just like a clinical overall psychologist and.
30:17 Lewis Howes? How helpful has that been?
30:18 Speaker 02 It's been really, it's been huge. And a lot of it was like learning things about myself that almost maybe got hidden over the years. Maybe I started to shift my focus from the things that were important to me to the things that seemed important to everyone else. And just finding a balance because both actually, I feel like both things are important. A lot of times we talk this day and age about self-care, self-love and like just, just placing emphasis on what's important to you. But if there's people around you that you love, it's okay if their opinions matter to you as well.
30:59 Speaker 02 It's just like find the balance between what seems like it should be a priority. And you should prioritize yourself, but that doesn't mean that you discount what everyone else is saying. It's just like, take it all with a grain of salt, do your own personal weighing situation and come out with like, come to your conclusion based off what you think is most important. But I didn't like, I didn't necessarily have the balance at that time. So. With my first sports psychologist, we we worked on finding a balance of what's like important to me versus what's important to the media or how like I started doing some media prep questions, like we would figure out what people might say that would trigger me and
31:42 Speaker 02 give me that. It's not just like, it's not just puking. It's it's feeling like you're choking. That's what it is. It like triggers, not that anyone wants to know this, but it triggers a gag reflex, but it literally feels like the collar of your shirt is too tight. And you just, you have this pressure point right here, like your food's stuck in your throat. And that just like, that triggers it.
32:07 Lewis Howes? Will make you throw up?
32:08 Speaker 02 Yeah. And
32:10 Lewis Howes? And you were trying to figure out what's causing that choking?
32:12 Speaker 02 Like, why do I feel like some like, like something's closing in on my throat right now? Because there's literally like, if you see me in the start, it still happens sometimes, but it doesn't scare me anymore. Like, if I pull down my my race suit, sometimes it feels like it's right there in my throat. And I'll take my fingers and I'll just pull down my race suit like this. And that's normally like, that's normally a sign that I'm feeling nervous. But I don't mind it. I'm not, it doesn't necessarily trigger like, me to go off on the side and like puke or whatever. It just, I'm just like, oh, I need a little space in my throat. And it's, I'm comfortable in that space now. But it took me like, multiple psychologists to get to the level, like the last one I worked with, actually heading
32:56 Speaker 02 into the most recent Olympics, we were talking a lot about being comfortable, or getting comfortable being uncomfortable. And you're likely to be uncomfortable when you don't know what the outcome of something is going to be.
33:11 Lewis Howes? Right.
33:12 Speaker 02 And
33:12 Lewis Howes? You're not in control.
33:13 Speaker 02 You're not in control, and you want to be in control. And that was a really, like, that's how I always used to. I didn't care what the outcome was. I really cared how I got there. And then we'll figure it out, like, when I cross the finish line, then we'll see if I, if it was good enough to win or not. And
33:34 Lewis Howes? Why do you care more now than than you did then?
33:37 Speaker 02 Uh, I wouldn't, I actually think I'm, I've sort of come full circle a little bit. Now, I almost, it's almost like when I was first starting out.
33:51 Speaker 02 And some of that probably has to do with this season and the record.
33:58 Speaker 02 Kind of like, basically, this season, I was like, I don't actually. I never felt like I should have been any, the person who was close to resetting this record. I didn't, it wasn't a goal. It wasn't on my radar, actually, ever. Like, I watched like Lindsay do that, get there. And I was like, that's happening for her. And I never, ever, I'd never, ever thought that I would be that one.
34:28 Speaker 02 So even getting that close this season, I was almost like, didn't want it to happen. I almost wanted Ingamar to stay the record holder for all of eternity.
34:38 Lewis Howes? Why? Why did you not want to break the record?
34:40 Speaker 02 I just like,
34:44 Lewis Howes? Why did you want to diminish your own greatness?
34:47 Speaker 02 Well, I don't know. I,
34:50 Speaker 02 I guess I just felt like if it happened, then, well, if ever, if it happened, everybody would start calling me the greatest of all time. And I don't see myself that way. And it's like, I do struggle a little bit when the world puts a label that doesn't coincide with my label for myself. So I'm like,
35:12 Lewis Howes? How do you label yourself?
35:14 Speaker 02 I don't even know. I don't, Michaela Shafran, like, I got a name. I don't know. I just, the GOAT term is just like weird to me. And I feel, I feel like there's more than one. And the, the, the term itself, it implies that there's only one, but there are more than one. Like, people will debate LeBron James, Michael Jordan, like any of the others, for the rest of eternity. And I think that's good. I think that's a beautiful thing about sports. And, and skiing, I hope that people debate, you know, I'm part of the conversation, like, that in and of itself is enough of a win for me. But I hope people will debate it for the rest of all time. Like, I hope it's part of the conversation that two American women are at the top of the conversation for greatest of all time.
36:00 Speaker 02 Like, that's really cool. That's really cool for American ski racing, for our, for our sport, for lifting the sport up in the US.
36:09 Speaker 02 And I don't want to take that title. Like, I want it to be the conversation because the conver, the conversation means people are talking about it and interested. And.
36:19 Speaker 02 And I like, I just don't see myself taking that over. And I want Ingamar, like, I want him to be the legend that, that never, like, his name never, ever disappears from the sport because he, he set the sport on the trajectory, trajectory, trajectory it is. So there's all these reasons why I like, was sort of conflicted about that. But in the end of the day, I just felt like, well, I'm not retiring. I'm doing well at this right now. If I keep skiing, if I keep skiing this way, I probably will break the record realistically. Break, probably reset. I don't like the break term either. Reset the record.
36:58 Lewis Howes? Not in skiing, you don't want to say break in skiing.
37:03 Speaker 02 So realistically, it was gonna happen. So I was like, whatever, it'll happen when it happens. And just like letting that go and just not caring about it. It was like the beginning of my career when I sort of was just interested in finding out what my potential was.
37:18 Lewis Howes? Right, less pressure and seeing what you're capable of in a race. How old are you now, 28, is that what, 20?
37:23 Speaker 02 28. Yes, no spring chicken.
37:27 Lewis Howes? 20, dude, man, I just, I just turned 40, so I'm trying to get back into college shape right now. I'm training like a machine.
37:33 Speaker 02 I think you're doing okay.
37:34 Lewis Howes? You know, I appreciate it. I'm curious, 28, the most accomplished ski racer in the world, or one of the most.
37:45 Lewis Howes? What is your biggest fear moving forward in your career and also in your personal life outside of your career?
37:53 Speaker 02 I don't really have, right now, I can't really think of a fear I have in my career. Maybe the only thing might be, like, injury.
38:03 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
38:04 Speaker 02 Which has just always been, that's always there.
38:06 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
38:07 Speaker 02 I definitely, like, I'm afraid, I do get afraid when I'm skiing. A lot of, a lot of racers will say they don't have any fear, and I definitely do.
38:14 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
38:15 Speaker 02 I think it's fine.
38:17 Lewis Howes? Crashing at 60 miles an hour is not fun.
38:19 Speaker 02 It's not fun.
38:19 Lewis Howes? If you got a helmet on, it's not fun.
38:20 Speaker 02 Not fun, and some would argue you have to, you can't have fear because you have to be willing to do that. And I'm like, well, I'm still afraid of doing that, but I'm gonna do this anyway.
38:29 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
38:29 Speaker 02 So I think there's all different ways you can approach that.
38:32 Lewis Howes? It don't let the fear hold you back.
38:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, but I definitely have it, and...
38:38 Speaker 02 I think it's, I do think it's important to admit when, to admit when you have fear to yourself. Cause it's kind of like, it's like a relationship and you're like, I gotta, I gotta let you know that I'm feeling this right now. And, and then you still, you still go for it.
38:53 Lewis Howes? Yeah, absolutely.
38:54 Speaker 02 But anyway, that's a different side of things.
38:59 Speaker 02 Probably, I, I think I'm probably gonna know a little bit more about what I'm afraid of. Once we get back into the race season, as things pop up that I, right now, I don't feel it. I maybe feel a little bit on top of the world. This past season was amazing. I have nothing else that I expect to do, but I'm still like, I'm still training. I still feel like I'm doing great with my skiing and I feel like people have figured out that expectations are sort of meaningless, cause I've done, I've exceeded them. I've failed miserably. The only thing I can really think of that would be a fear of mine is like how it goes in the upcoming Olympics.
39:43 Speaker 02 And mostly, if I were to not win any medals again, how would people react again? But I actually asked somebody, kind of an advisor and one of, one of my sponsors recently. And he, I just was like, this is, this is a real thing. Like I'm afraid to hype myself up going into this next Olympics or allow anybody else to hype me up. Because I, like, what if it happens again? And Beijing was a very, like a standalone event. There, it was very unique with conditions. There were a lot of things there, like COVID. There were just a lot of things that built up prior to the games and during the games.
40:27 Speaker 02 That it's like, it wasn't even not, it was fully against me in a way. But everybody has to deal with something that's against them and some people made it anyway and I didn't. So there's that. But I still feel like.
40:43 Speaker 02 I don't know. The cards could stack up that way again and I could do my best and it still might, it still might not work out. And I'm not afraid to try, but I have a little bit of a like, what are people gonna say then? Because now people still say, you know, like record schmeckard, you don't have any gold medals. I'm like, I actually, we talked about this before. I feel the need to defend it. I'm like, I actually do. I have Olympic gold medals and I have many world championship gold medals. So like, you don't know what you're talking about, but that's like.
41:21 Lewis Howes? So you're, you have a fear of, when is the next Olympics?
41:25 Speaker 02 2026.
41:26 Lewis Howes? So what have you, in three years away?
41:28 Speaker 02 Three years away.
41:28 Lewis Howes? Roughly three years away? Your fear is, in three years?
41:33 Speaker 02 In three years.
41:34 Lewis Howes? What happens?
41:35 Speaker 02 What might happen?
41:36 Lewis Howes? If I don't win a medal, or if I'm not a gold medalist again?
41:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:41 Lewis Howes? What will people say about me?
41:43 Speaker 02 Yeah. A little, maybe a little bit.
41:47 Lewis Howes? How is that serving and supporting you in your life right now?
41:51 Speaker 02 Just kind of exists. It's like, it doesn't have any impact on how I feel for this coming season. And this past season helped me a lot because I did get, I did win world championship medals. And it was sort of like, is it a big event thing? Is it a karma thing? Is it like, what, what is it about this? And there was a lot of, there was a lot of kind of drama surrounding this past world championship. So it was just like.
42:22 Lewis Howes? Can she do it?
42:22 Speaker 02 Yeah. And some.
42:25 Lewis Howes? And you did it.
42:26 Speaker 02 Yeah. And it was, it was like boiled down to how I skied. But I almost, like, the, the first race I did, the, the combined event, like, I was skiing great. And I skied off the course. I DNF'd again, um, three gates from the finish. And there was like, there is a reason. We don't have to get into it now, but it was like, oh my gosh, it's happening again. I had a great run and then I just, all I needed to do was make it past the last two gates. It's just
42:57 Lewis Howes? But you were leading.
42:58 Speaker 02 I was leading. It would have like, for sure, if I made it to the finish, it would have been a win, but it wasn't because I didn't make it.
43:04 Lewis Howes? Was that a mental error in the moment?
43:07 Speaker 02 No.
43:07 Lewis Howes? Was it a?
43:08 Speaker 02 It was act- well, it was a little bit of a mental error, but it was actually, there was a, there was a section of the course that, it was literally the last two gates of the course that was prepared differently because of the way the sunlight struck the hill, but also because they moved the finish line down from the earlier run. So it was like soft snow for the last two gates of the course. And I saw that and I didn't mentally, I didn't adjust to it. So it was a little bit, it was a little bit mental. For sure, I could have done that differently and made it to the finish, but I did, I was just like full gas and I didn't adjust.
43:45 Lewis Howes? I want to ask you a few final questions. This is, I could do this conversation for hours with Michaela. This is inspiring. For me, I love talking to athletes who excel at the highest level. Um, so it's really cool to hear your perspective and your, your thought process on performing, training, coaching, failure, success, all these things. How do you visualize for success? I know you mentioned early on that you like, you don't really think about winning. You think about the next turn and really the whole course and the process of the course and getting through it. But do you dream and visualize about success the day before, the night before, once before a big event? How does that process work for you?
44:27 Speaker 02 Yeah. Um,
44:31 Speaker 02 it's kind of like a little bit multifaceted. Like I, I will visualize myself
44:39 Speaker 02 winning a race and like standing on the podium and the festivities after. I will visualize that, but that's more like I, that's more in the downtime when I'm daydreaming, when I'm training in the gym and I wanna like, I need one more set and I'm like, this is killing me. And that's kind of like,
44:58 Lewis Howes? You think of that, yeah.
44:59 Speaker 02 Yeah, I kind of, that kind of helps me a little bit in those situations. Um, but then there's a visualization, like actual technical.
45:09 Speaker 02 Imagery of my skiing and that I do almost every day. I think about skiing. I dream about skiing. And it's, it's literally just dreaming about the way that I want to ski my turns. That I think is the fastest way to do it. And when I'm actually like right now is sort of the off season. It's a lot more training in the gym. So I'm, I haven't been on snow since the end of, uh, the end of May.
45:35 Speaker 02 And so right now I'm maybe not thinking about it as much, but I'll be on the snow, on snow again at the end of the month, at the end of July. And as I get closer to that, I'm gonna like, I'm gonna pull up videos and watch my skiing image and look at some of my races from last season, especially the races that I didn't win. To see like, maybe watch the whoever won those races and see what they might've done better. Um, and see what I can focus on for these upcoming camps as we get closer to the season.
46:09 Lewis Howes? Where's the snow in July?
46:11 Speaker 02 I'm going to man.
46:13 Lewis Howes? There's snow there now?
46:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, there is snow there. There's snow there now.
46:17 Lewis Howes? I was like, end of July, there's snow somewhere.
46:19 Speaker 02 I know. Well, it's just mostly because it's mostly because the, the west coast got so much snow this winter. Normally it wouldn't be good at this time, but I think, I think it's really good. But then otherwise we'll go to Chile in September.
46:31 Lewis Howes? Oh, that'd be cool.
46:32 Speaker 02 That's a good time.
46:35 Lewis Howes? This is a question I ask everyone towards the end of my interviews. It's called the three truths. So you're 28, but let's imagine you get to live as long as you want to live in this world. Extend your life as long as you want to live. And you get to accomplish and experience all the things you want to experience in life. From skiing to whatever activities you do after skiing to life, to family, whatever, any dreams you have, you get to have them come true. But for whatever reason, you can't leave anything behind. No one can watch the races you've done or any content you've made. You've got a YouTube channel, which is really great. I want people to watch that. Behind the scenes, but all the things you've created, this interview is gone. Hypothetically, it's all gone.
47:19 Lewis Howes? But you get to leave behind three lessons you would leave with the world from your life experience. Three things that you know to be true, that feel good to you. What would be those three truths or lessons you would share with people?
47:32 Speaker 02 I think, um.
47:37 Speaker 02 That it's some, I'm not sure who said this, but failure isn't final. That would be one thing.
47:50 Speaker 02 And that it can actually be a lesson to help you succeed.
48:01 Speaker 02 Two would be.
48:06 Speaker 02 Everybody needs to compromise sometime.
48:11 Speaker 02 Compromise is part of life and love and relationships.
48:17 Speaker 02 I feel like. Never forget where you're from. Is. Just like your roots and your upbringing and the life that brought you to where you are. Cause there's, there's lessons in there and hidden lessons that you'll be learning for the rest of time. I feel like first like eight years of life probably taught you everything you need to know, but you just didn't know it then.
48:41 Lewis Howes? Those are beautiful. How can we be of support and service to you?
48:45 Speaker 02 Oh goodness.
48:47 Lewis Howes? You're on, you've got a, you know, massive following on social media and I see on Instagram, I see you on the threads lately.
48:52 Speaker 02 Threads, yeah.
48:53 Lewis Howes? Connecting with you on the threads.
48:54 Speaker 02 I'm a. Churries out on threads.
48:57 Lewis Howes? You got your, you got your YouTube channel, which is, you know, showing really blogs behind the scenes of your life in between the slopes, which I think is really cool.
49:05 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:06 Lewis Howes? Uh, which will have all this linked up for people in the episode, but how can we be of support to you? In this season of life?
49:13 Speaker 02 Oh my goodness.
49:15 Lewis Howes? You're up for a couple of ESPs.
49:17 Speaker 02 Up for a couple of ESPs.
49:18 Lewis Howes? This will come out after the ESPs. So we're putting the intention out of good things to happen for you.
49:22 Speaker 02 I mean. It's maybe less just for me, but like ski racing is something I'm clearly passionate about. It's incredible sport, but skiing in general, and there's so much about the snow sports. That's. So beautiful, incredible, the community that.
49:41 Speaker 02 The the the family, the the friendships you make along the way. And I always, I always wish that I like, I know so many incredible athletes and people who love skiing, love snowboarding, love, love snow, love snow sports. And I'm like, just say it, tell people, spread the word. Cause it is maybe a little bit selfish that I, I want people to do it because I want it to have a future. And there's a lot more to it than that. There's a lot more and we didn't get into about climate and everything, but um, if it's a necessity for humans, we'll find a way to make it environmentally like forward
50:26 Speaker 02 thinking, progressive and friendly and, and I want it to be something that people care about. And I feel like that comes with a spark from people talking about it.
50:37 Lewis Howes? That's cool.
50:38 Speaker 02 Mostly what you've already done, bringing me on the show and talking.
50:41 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
50:42 Speaker 02 That's, that's actually, that's actually support enough. Of course, for me personally, but for skiing.
50:49 Lewis Howes? Go ski and snowboard.
50:50 Speaker 02 Go just try it.
50:52 Lewis Howes? I'm a big snowboarder. I haven't done it in the last couple of years, but I want, hearing about going to Mammoth makes me want to go now this, this year. So if you ever do like a, a weekend camp, you know.
51:01 Speaker 02 I know, yeah, we should do it.
51:03 Lewis Howes? Let me know and invite me and my girlfriend will come up and.
51:05 Speaker 02 Oh, that would be so fun.
51:07 Lewis Howes? Spread the message of skiing to the world.
51:09 Speaker 02 I need to think about that.
51:10 Lewis Howes? Yeah, you should put on your own kind of like weekend adventure for, for people. So.
51:14 Speaker 02 Oh, that would be great. That's a great idea.
51:15 Lewis Howes? Yeah. Um, well, I want to acknowledge you, Michaela, for your courage, because I think the courage to say that you aren't that confident in certain areas of your life, I think is really inspiring because I think a lot of people look at you and think she wins constantly by large gaps. Uh, and she's won all these medals and she's the most winningest, you know, skier of all time and all these things and thinking you have this confidence in you, which I know you do, but I hear you saying that you don't in certain settings of life. So I really acknowledge you for having the courage to talk about that and also giving language to what it means to be. Great at something you do, you can still be nervous, you can still be insecure,
51:58 Lewis Howes? but having the courage and trying and doing it to the best of your ability is what it's really all about.
52:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:04 Lewis Howes? So you've embodied that for really the last, I guess, 10, 12 years since you've been on the scene of skiing and really putting yourself out there. So I acknowledge you for your courage and your, your confidence, which you're very confident to me. So
52:18 Speaker 02 Thank you.
52:19 Lewis Howes? I acknowledge you for that, Michaela. My final question is, what is your definition of greatness?
52:25 Speaker 02 I think greatness is
52:30 Speaker 02 the feeling that you get when you do or experience or watch something that gives you the shivers down your spine. The sort of inspiration, just the feeling like, I can't believe I'm part of this moment.
52:47 Lewis Howes? I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.
53:31 Lewis Howes? And now it's time to go out there and do something great.
Previous 5 Powerful Manifestations You Need To Say Every Day | Lewis Howes Next The Danger Line: Why 84% Never Reach Their Potential | Dr. Michael Gervais Page updated September 29, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
