Stop Wasting Your Life With THIS Mindset Shift w/ Bozoma Saint John EP 1397

https://lewishowes.com/mindset - Order a copy of my new book The Greatness Mindset today! Bozoma Saint John is an influencer and American businesswoman who has had a stellar career in marketing, most recently as the Global Chief Marketing Officer at Netflix. She began her career at Spike Lee’s advertising agency, then going on to become a senior marketing executive at Pepsi, Apple Music, Uber, and Endeavor. She has been featured on the cover of Adweek as “one of the most exciting personalities in advertising” and has been inducted into the American Advertising Federation Hall of Achievement, as well as the American Marketing Hall of Fame, among others. Bozoma was named the #1 most influential CMO by Forbes in 2021,and has created a successful online tutorial “The Badass Workshop” which teach others to be their greatest selves. In this episode you will learn:How to prioritize your life. Why you should seek satisfaction in your everyday life. How Bozoma navigated and grew from the loss of her husband. The powerful insights of loving someone with terminal cancer. And so much more! Order Bozoma's Book - The Urgent Life: My Story of Love, Loss, and Survival For more, go to lewishowes.com/1397How To Change Your Behavior And Accomplish Your Goals [MASTERCLASS]: https://link.chtbl.com/1317-podDr. Joe Dispenza: Break Free Of The Addiction To Negative Thoughts & Emotions: https://link.chtbl.com/1309-podBruce Lipton on How To Reprogram Your Subconscious Mind To Manifest Your Dream Life: https://link.chtbl.com/1312-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  Okay, so if you haven't heard the news yet, I've got a new book out called The Greatness Mindset. Unlock the Power of Your Mind and Live Your Best Life Today. It's coming out soon and I'm pumped to invite you to be a part of the launch team for this book. This is a rare opportunity to get your questions answered and network with other champions of greatness in this exclusive community of conscious achievers. If you're ready to receive early access to the first few chapters of the book, behind the scenes updates from me, plus VIP access to bonuses and giveaways, then this is for you for instructions about how to join this greatness launch team. Make sure to go to lewishouse.com/launchteam right now.

• 0:43Lewis Howes?

  Again, make sure to check it out at lewishouse.com/launchteam right now.

• 0:48Bozoma Saint John?

  This idea of like waiting to heal before you do the thing, that's like the opposite of living the urgent life. You know, because if you're constantly waiting until you are healed.

• 1:01Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:24Lewis Howes?

  I'm so excited about this because you've had such an amazing life and multiple careers and multiple industries at the highest level as you know, head of marketing at pretty much every major company that people have ever heard of. So you've been around the block in life. You've been around the block and experiencing a lot of injustice in the world, but also injustices in relationships, heartbreak, pain, suffering, and also great success. So you've experienced a lot of great things while also dealing with dark times. And the first thing I want to ask you is how is your heart?

• 2:06Bozoma Saint John?

  Wow. So we started out. Well, you know, maybe it's maybe it's no coincidence, right? There's a heart on the cover of my book.

• 2:13Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 2:14Bozoma Saint John?

  My heart, my heart is, my heart is really good right now. It's really, really good. I feel very full, you know, in my life. That there is so much that, like you said, I've accomplished. That makes me feel proud.

• 2:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Bozoma Saint John?

  There's so much that I have to look forward to in the future that I'm really excited about, even though it's unknown to me. I don't have a plan, you know, but I feel really excited about it. I feel satisfied with like where I am, the age I'm at, the things I do. Like I feel good, feel really, really good.

• 2:47Lewis Howes?

  Most people never feel satisfied, right? They don't feel satisfied in their career, their relationships, or even if they've been successful, how much success they've had, they don't feel that fulfillment and satisfaction. Why do you think you've come to a place of satisfied?

• 3:01Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 3:02Lewis Howes?

  While at the same time, you're not clear of what you're gonna step into next?

• 3:06Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. You know what? You just actually said something that brought back a memory because

• 3:15Bozoma Saint John?

  I don't mean to sound corny about it, but I think I've always been satisfied with where I am. You know, it doesn't mean that I don't have ambition. Been very ambitious. I think you just look at my resume and you're just like, oh yeah, this ambitious person, you know? But I've always felt very satisfied. And what you just brought up for me, the memory you just brought is that I remember it was probably two thousand, maybe two thousand and one. I was in New York City. I was the assistant to Spike Lee at his advertising agency, Spike D E B. And I had just moved from Connecticut where I'd spent an extra year after graduating from college. And I was trying to figure out what to do. I was like trying to stave off medical school because that's where my dad wanted me to go and da da.

• 3:59Bozoma Saint John?

  And I was, you know, grabbing coffee and making copies and just trying to stay out the way in the office, basically. Go where I needed to be, to be. And, but it was such a dream to be in New York and riding the subway and like sort of independence and trying to figure it out. Didn't have money to do anything, nothing, no money at all. And I was working late one night and um I was really late, like nine or ten o'clock. I was still in the office and um I remember the office manager said I could take a car service home instead of riding the train. Cause I lived in Jersey City and you know, yeah, I take the subway to the fast train, cross the water, we walk home, like it was, it was a trek. Oh man, it was a trek.

• 4:43Bozoma Saint John?

  Um, and so I got a car service and it was one of those black cars, you know, and I sat in the back and it was my first time, like, you know, having a car in a nice car like that where I had a driver and they were like, are you Miss, you know, at that point I was unmarried, so are you Miss Arthur? And I was like, yes, you know, and I sat down and he's driving, I remember rolling down the window and just like being like, God, life is really good.

• 5:08Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:08Bozoma Saint John?

  Life is really, really good, you know, and feeling very satisfied in that moment. It didn't mean that like I didn't have ambitions of one day ruling the planet.

• 5:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, sure, yeah.

• 5:17Bozoma Saint John?

  And having car services every day whenever I wanted, you know, but I do remember, like you just reminded me of that moment, feeling really satisfied. So even as I sit here today, I still have, you know, big dreams, big ambition, I don't know where it is I'm going, but I feel very, very satisfied with where I am.

• 5:36Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 5:37Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 5:38Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious about, you're a very driven person. You've shown that over your whole career, right, in your life? Overcome a lot of different challenges and adversities and first time in so many different ways. When someone is going through a dark time, and however that looks for them, a breakup, a death, a letdown, any type of dark time in their life, is it possible to keep being driven in your career and your goals and your dreams when you're going through sadness and darkness and grief and loss?

• 6:14Lewis Howes?

  Without also be being able to heal in on the process. Can you can you heal and be driven at the same time?

• 6:24Lewis Howes?

  Or is it only you can be driven because you're masking the pain and the suffering and you're not actually addressing it? Is it possible to do both be driven in the darkness?

• 6:34Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, well, that's what's so beautiful about this experience in life, right? Is that like we don't have to be one dimensional that all things can be true at the same time. You know, it's the reason why it's like, I remember um, once shortly after Peter had died.

• 6:51Bozoma Saint John?

  I was sitting with a friend and she was telling me a story and I started laughing hysterically. You know, it was like.

• 6:55Lewis Howes?

  After he died?

• 6:56Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, it was like from my belly, you know, the kind of laugh that makes you want to fall over and slap something, you know, that kind of laugh? And then almost stopping short because I was like, oh, I'm supposed to be sad. You know, I'm not supposed to laugh like this. The truth of matter is that like, isn't that what life is? You know, even when you're grieving, you can have belly laughs that take you out of that pain. For however long that is, maybe it's a second or maybe it's five minutes or maybe it's a few days. You know, so like if you're in a dark place, can you still be driven? Of course you can. You know, it's not a constant either, though. You know, where like being gentle with yourself and knowing that like even when you're in the darkness, there will be times when you don't feel like getting up.

• 7:41Bozoma Saint John?

  But then it's not forever. You know, or to feel badly that you're driven even though you're going through something. You know, so like even when, yeah, it was like.

• 7:54Bozoma Saint John?

  When I decided to move from New York and take the next job and people were like, shouldn't you be in a cave somewhere crying your eyes out? You know, like, why are you so ambitious? Sit down. You know, and yeah, I did question myself too, like, why am I not sitting down somewhere? Like, why, why am I still out here pushing? You know, like, there were, there have been many, many moments like that. And I don't think that there has to be only one definition for how we are. You know, so like, yes, if you're in a place where you feel like the textbook expectation should be that you should take one step at a time, take it one day at a time. I hate that phrase, by the way.

• 8:39Lewis Howes?

  Instead of taking it one day at a time, what should we do?

• 8:41Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, we should take it all, do everything, all at once. Make it messy, make it unpredictable, defy logic. Like, why does it have to be so ordered? One day at a time for what? One step at a time for what? Sometimes gonna, sometimes gonna run, sometimes gonna skip, sometimes gonna go backwards, sometimes gonna lay down, sometimes gonna sit up and look at the world. And sometimes, yes, I will take one step. But why does it have to be so ordered all the time? And so the freedom in that, I think, allows us then to be multiple things at one time. So that, yes, you can be driven and in a dark place. You can be hurting and still laugh.

• 9:24Bozoma Saint John?

  You can be healing and still trying to figure out how to avoid the next hurt. You know, like, all of those things can be true at the same time. It doesn't have to mean that you're wrong or that you're doing it wrong. You know, it's like, there's no definition for how you're supposed to live your life. And I think that's also the other beautiful thing. You know, the fact that, like, no one has ever been where I am before. Not a person on the planet. You know, and so it's like, why would I subscribe to the steps somebody else thinks should be ordered for me?

• 9:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 9:56Bozoma Saint John?

  There's no plan like that.

• 9:58Lewis Howes?

  No one fully understands your life experiences. They might be able to relate to some things, but they don't fully understand and comprehend everything.

• 10:06Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so there's so much freedom in that.

• 10:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:09Bozoma Saint John?

  It's like, you don't have to listen to anybody.

• 10:12Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly.

• 10:13Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and so it's like, yes, you can, you can be hurt and trying to heal, maybe taking the steps to healing. You know, whether that's therapy or you're working on something that you feel like or taking a risk that you would have been fearful of before, but still, like, being driven about this thing or, like, being, you know, like, okay, I'm gonna accomplish this even though I'm not a hundred percent. Like, that's the thing that always, like, I'm thinking about is that, like, again, you don't have to have a full tank of gas to get to the other side of town. You know what I mean? Maybe you had a quart of tank. And you know that it's gonna take you like, you know, just up to that like right in that corner to get there. You know, it's like go anyway. Why does the tank have to be full? You know what I mean?

• 10:55Bozoma Saint John?

  So for me, I'm constantly thinking about that, that like I'm still in the process of healing. You know, that that whole statement about like time heals all heals all wounds. It's a bull. Okay.

• 11:08Lewis Howes?

  Well, it's interesting you say that, cause my, I've got an emotional coach. That I work with, I was telling you about. Pretty much every two weeks, uh, and.

• 11:18Lewis Howes?

  She says like, healing is a journey. It's not like a destination where you're like, okay, now I'm healed. It's okay, now I've come to an awareness about the things. Now I've started processing it and I'm integrating the lessons now. Oh, now I went back two steps because I triggered again. Uh, now I reintegrate and I process it some more and time helps, but it may not heal all.

• 11:38Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 11:39Lewis Howes?

  You know what I mean? So it's, it's our constant awareness of it. Constant, uh, grace in the process of being a human being.

• 11:47Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 11:48Lewis Howes?

  Of it, you know what I mean?

• 11:48Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, you know, and you just made me think of something because like. This idea of like, um, waiting to heal before you do the thing. That's like the, the opposite of living the urgent life. You know, because if you're constantly waiting until you are healed, or you're constantly waiting until that next thing happens, or you get to the right spot, or da da, then you won't be fulfilled in your life. You know, if I waited to be totally healed from the trauma of my husband dying, I would not have moved across the country.

• 12:19Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 12:19Bozoma Saint John?

  If I was waiting to be healed from the death of my first child, I would not be a mother today. You know, if I was wait, like all these things that we're waiting to accomplish or waiting to be fixed. Before you can do the next thing.

• 12:34Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 12:35Bozoma Saint John?

  It's just, it's like a waste of time.

• 12:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think it's inspiring when we have the courage to do the next thing and be aware that we're on a healing journey.

• 12:43Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 12:44Lewis Howes?

  You know, I'm never gonna be fully healed, but I'm in the process of it. I'm working on it. I'm doing this and I'm gonna do it anyways.

• 12:50Bozoma Saint John?

  And there's no shame.

• 12:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:52Bozoma Saint John?

  There's no shame in that, you know? By the way, that's another like whole unlock that I had for myself and in my career, believe it or not, was that I opened this vulnerability that I had closed off before. You know, this idea of the perfection, that things had to be great and like complete in order to move to the next thing. And very quickly, I mean, I was kind of thrown into it when I accepted the job with Jimmy. That like I had no idea what music streaming was. I'd never done that before. I was not an expert in it, but it didn't mean that I couldn't go do it. And guess what? I figured it out.

• 13:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:33Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I mean? Or like moving any, anything in my life, which has felt like, gosh, I need to like really have conquered this thing in order to move to the next one, has been a lie.

• 13:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:46Bozoma Saint John?

  And it is actually how I counsel a lot of women especially, who are like early in their career or mid-career even, you know, that um, who are waiting to rack all the things before they take the next risk.

• 14:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:01Bozoma Saint John?

  I'm just like, oh, you know that like that actually doesn't work, right? Like you don't, you can't wait until like you've checked off every box before you jump to the next thing that you gotta do. You gotta leave some room for growth. You know, your, your cup is, if it's all the way full, how you gonna put more stuff in it? You know what I'm saying? Like it's, you gotta have a little bit open, open at the top in order to pour more experiences in there.

• 14:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:25Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, so it's like, if you're ever just like full to the brim, if you've checked off everything, then there's no more growth for you. So as I even look at myself, that is where I am now, where it's just like, there is no more growth if you're all the way full, if you're checked off everything before you take the next risk, where are you gonna put the stuff that you're getting?

• 14:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:45Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, so yeah, it's like, leave the tank like quarter full.

• 14:49Lewis Howes?

  Well, that's why I think it's really cool because in this off season that you're having in this last year, you're filling up your cup of your health and wellness, you're filling up your relationship cups, you're filling up your adventure and travel cups, you know, your relaxation cup, you're filling those up, but you're emptying your cup of career and success and this, to see the space of what can come in next.

• 15:12Bozoma Saint John?

  That's right.

• 15:12Lewis Howes?

  To see where you can grow into next. So I think it's a great analogy, it's like, you know, fill your, fill another cup, you know?

• 15:18Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 15:19Lewis Howes?

  But that cup, you gotta empty it out.

• 15:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, exactly, or get more cups. Get more cups, you know what I mean? It's like, maybe my corporate cup is full.

• 15:27Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 15:27Bozoma Saint John?

  Have a brand new cup.

• 15:28Lewis Howes?

  But you look like you're in your best health and wellness phase of your, you know, since I've known you.

• 15:33Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:33Lewis Howes?

  Not that you were not in great shape before, or emotionally in a good place, but you, you feel energetically peaceful, I see you training, I see you like getting healthy in even better ways, I see you with photos with your daughter and things like this, and just like enjoying life together, traveling and bringing her in your life more in those trips, I'm sure you did that before too, but, and so you're able to experience things in a different way to allow for things to open up, which I think is great.

• 16:00Bozoma Saint John?

  Absolutely, absolutely, but that's also, like I said, part of the learning of this, you know, which is just like, I don't have to have had things complete in order to move to the next thing, you know? I'm sure there are people who would look at my career and say, oh, but you haven't done that thing yet, you know, don't you think you should do that before you retire?

• 16:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:21Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, but like, do I need it? Probably not, you know, and so it's like,

• 16:27Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:27Bozoma Saint John?

  Why, why continue, you know, why continue to do that thing? So again, I think is a lot of, a lot of it really just has to do with self-reflection at the end of the day.

• 16:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 16:38Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, listening to your own spirit, listening to your own needs and wants. Um, and making sure that you're not lying to yourself, you know, based on the stories that other people have told you. Based on narratives that are running around the planet that you've accepted as the truth. And maybe were lies, you know what I mean? So I feel like there's such an opportunity for me too. You know, to relook at everything and yes, be a healthier human and focus more on like, yeah, my physical health.

• 17:07Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 17:09Bozoma Saint John?

  And focus on my relationship with my daughter. You know, explore the planet in ways that I haven't before. You know, like in twenty twenty two, I did a little Instagram reel about this that I, every month last year, I worked out in a different country.

• 17:23Lewis Howes?

  You worked out in a different country. It's pretty cool.

• 17:26Bozoma Saint John?

  It was fantastic.

• 17:27Lewis Howes?

  That's awesome.

• 17:28Bozoma Saint John?

  But you know, it was like, God, what a dream, you know, to be in a place where I'm financially secure enough to do that.

• 17:36Lewis Howes?

  It's cool.

• 17:37Bozoma Saint John?

  Where I have the time.

• 17:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 17:38Bozoma Saint John?

  To do that.

• 17:39Lewis Howes?

  You spent twenty years building your career and you're, you know, stacking your income and saving and investing so that you have the opportunity after twenty years to do that.

• 17:47Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, and to take advantage of it now.

• 17:49Lewis Howes?

  And enjoy it.

• 17:50Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 17:50Lewis Howes?

  And have an urgency around it.

• 17:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Man, because like, what am I gonna do when I'm seventy five? Well, hopefully I'll still be working out and still healthy, but you know what I'm saying? Like, waiting for that is not the answer.

• 18:02Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:02Bozoma Saint John?

  So even in that, I have urgency.

• 18:04Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. So there's this, you know, I love the, your story about you were satisfied at twenty something years old in the back of the, you know, the cab with the black car. And you're satisfied now, and I think a lot of people. Hear this concept of never be satisfied, but we were just talking about how, you know, be satisfied with where you are, but also be striving for your purpose, your mission and stepping into that.

• 18:30Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 18:30Lewis Howes?

  And what are your thoughts on the idea of never be satisfied?

• 18:34Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what? I understand why somebody would say that, you know, like you should always be hungry. Like you should always be chasing. That's a good motivator, you know, to get the next thing so that you wake up and you want to go get it. But that's a terrible way to live. It's like a complete, I vehemently disagree with the concept that you should never be satisfied. It was like, you should, you should be satisfied. You should be satisfied. You should wake up feeling satisfied with your life. It doesn't mean that you don't want the next thing. Of course you want the next thing, but like, if, if life were to end today, would you want to have lived an unsatisfied life?

• 19:13Bozoma Saint John?

  Would you want like, like I think, I really do think of Peter at that, at those last days.

• 19:20Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and think about all the things that he was unsatisfied about. I don't want that for myself. I don't want that for you. I don't think any of us should live that way.

• 19:33Lewis Howes?

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• 20:15Lewis Howes?

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• 20:40Lewis Howes?

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• 21:48Bozoma Saint John?

  So be satisfied, you know, and that doesn't mean lesser than.

• 21:53Lewis Howes?

  Be satisfied even if you're just starting out as an assistant getting coffee, if you're the CEO, if you're anywhere in between, if you're in an off-season.

• 22:01Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, be satisfied, be satisfied with like how wonderful you have it. You know, even the least of us, even the people who are like, you know, in this terrible place, like I said, like, we can be satisfied. Like, the day after Peter died, um, actually, no. It was, it was a few days later because we were having his funeral. He died on December 11th, 2013. It was four days before his 44th birthday. And so on his 44th birthday, December 15th, we had his funeral and made it a party.

• 22:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:36Bozoma Saint John?

  And I was sitting there and, you know, kind of in a haze, but then also, you know, that moment of clarity, where I'm looking around the room and like his fraternity brothers are drinking beers and they're sharing stories about him and, you know, my daughter's like sleeping on my mom's lap and I've got my sisters like in the corner trying to busy themselves, you know, like getting out plates of food and whatnot and see people connecting. And it was the oddest thought, you know, I looked around and I was just like, wow, like...

• 23:09Bozoma Saint John?

  This is a good, this is a good group of people. You know, this is, this is a great place to be. To have this. And so I was satisfied in that moment. The most terrible thing had happened in my life. But I was looking around and feeling very satisfied with who I had around me. And that, I think, is what I would like for all of us to consider. That even when things are bad and going wrong, you can still be satisfied. You can still feel like, ah, this is, this is it. And it is okay. Yeah, it's okay.

• 23:47Lewis Howes?

  I'm a big fan of the, the title of the book, The Urgent Life. And when I saw this, I was just thinking to myself, yes, right away, because we have like similar, completely different experiences, but similar feelings probably from experiences we've had. So my father went, got in an accident. He had a traumatic brain injury and was in a coma for three months when I was 21. And I remember he, we didn't know if he was gonna live or die, but he eventually woke up after three months. And he was a completely different person. Like he was physically alive, but emotionally and mentally kind of gone. Took him a while to like learn how to talk again. He wasn't able to work anymore.

• 24:32Lewis Howes?

  He had amnesia, so when I'd see him, like, who, what's your name again? It was just a different type of relationship, right? I had to learn to love my father for who he was and start to grieve the man that he once was before, right? And I remember thinking, he was in his early 50s when this happened. He had worked so hard for 30 years to, as a life insurance salesman, where he finally was starting to make money, where he could like travel and have some freedom in his life. And he was starting to feel like he was happy for the first time, fully happy. And then this accident happened. And I remember being really angry at life that my dad didn't get to go live the rest of his life the way he wanted to.

• 25:15Lewis Howes?

  And I felt like I had so much urgency to go pursue everything I wanted. Like from that moment on.

• 25:23Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 25:23Lewis Howes?

  I was like, I'm not gonna let any fear or insecurity hold me back. It might still be there, but I'm at least gonna take the actions on my goals, my dreams, and live urgently because what if this happens to me? What if I get in a car accident tomorrow?

• 25:36Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Lewis Howes?

  And something like that happens to me, I'd be sad that I didn't at least go try. And this, you know, again, completely different experience you had, but it created a feeling of urgency in your life with your ex-husband, right? With your husband?

• 25:50Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 25:51Lewis Howes?

  And, um, which was almost ten years ago?

• 25:54Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Lewis Howes?

  Is that right?

• 25:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, ten years since this December.

• 25:56Lewis Howes?

  And can you explain the story about what had happened with your husband around wanting to get divorced and then?

• 26:03Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Lewis Howes?

  Cancer situation and how this, how being in a very dark, sad, challenging time, sad time, wanted you to create urgency at the same time? And in living to your best self?

• 26:18Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 26:18Lewis Howes?

  During sadness? Can you explain a little bit about that?

• 26:21Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, well, first of all, I, um, I really appreciate what you just said and shared about your dad, you know, because, um, I feel that for all of us who are living this life on this like hurdling rock that we call home, um, we don't always have to have had the same experience to understand essentially the concept of what I'm talking about.

• 26:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:44Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, this need for urgency. And it's not necessarily about the rush through life, it's about the intention. You know, knowing like you said, like, you know, I wanna do these things because what if? So then you're intentional about saying, okay, I wanna live a big life, or I wanna go do this thing that I'm dreaming of, or I wanna push a little harder because like, what if, right? And the same thing for me in that like, I don't think of the end of life in this morbid way, where I'm just like, oh, today might be my last day. I don't think of it in a morbid way. It's very inspiring to me, actually. It makes me wanna get up and go do the thing. You know, and again, it's not about a rush, it's like, I wanna, I wanna make the best use of my time that I have. I don't know how long it is, but I wanna make the best use of it.

• 27:27Bozoma Saint John?

  And I'm also conscious of the fact that I won't do everything.

• 27:33Bozoma Saint John?

  And so that means that I have to be very intentional about the things I choose to do. You know?

• 27:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 27:38Bozoma Saint John?

  Because if you walk around thinking like, oh, I have the time, I'll just do everything at some point. Then maybe you don't get to do anything at all. So I'm intentional in knowing that like, oh, okay, I might not get a chance to complete everything. So what's the most important thing? And then I want to do those things. And so at the time in December of 2013, when Peter passed away, we were, we were there. You know, where, you know, your, the, the stories are true. You're sitting at the deathbed. And you're talking about all the things you wish you'd done.

• 28:10Lewis Howes?

  Is that what he was saying?

• 28:11Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, yeah. We talked about so much. The things he wanted to do, his hopes and dreams, what he wants for Leil, our daughter. Like what he wanted for her in the future. You know, all of those things. And I was sitting there listening and thinking and crying and making promises and all of the things. And knowing that I need to change the way I live. You know, he wouldn't, he wouldn't have a chance to do it over. So I need to do it. You know? And it was such a dark time also because we were already going through so much on top of being at death's door. You know, that like our marriage had fallen apart.

• 28:54Bozoma Saint John?

  We had been separated for a couple of years already. Through so much, gosh, additional traumas that happened to us. Misunderstandings, anger. You know, that we couldn't overcome with just love. You know?

• 29:10Lewis Howes?

  Unmet expectations, everything, yeah.

• 29:12Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, man, you think love conquers everything and no it does not.

• 29:15Lewis Howes?

  Love is not enough.

• 29:16Bozoma Saint John?

  Love is not enough. You know, love is not enough. And it, it was all of that turmoil

• 29:24Bozoma Saint John?

  that led us to that moment where I am sitting, holding his hand. And his breath gets shallower and shallower. You know, and, and thinking about all the things I would have done differently. If I had a shot to do it again. You know? It's not necessarily that like, oh, I wish life had turned out differently. It's just that I wish I had.

• 29:49Bozoma Saint John?

  Been motivated differently.

• 29:51Lewis Howes?

  What were you motivated by before then?

• 29:53Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, man. I think at that time, I was motivated by just my own need for my own life. You know, not really focused on anybody else's.

• 30:08Bozoma Saint John?

  And that's, that sounds very selfish, but that's where I was. You know, it was, it was not, I was a mother and a wife. I was so only focused on myself.

• 30:17Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 30:17Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 30:18Lewis Howes?

  At that time?

• 30:18Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, there was so much that had happened on my path to motherhood. And it's another one of the things that like, you know, now I talk about so openly because we also paint motherhood like it's supposed to be like this great, amazing thing that like, oh, you get pregnant and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, all this love shows up from nowhere and you're just like encapsulated by this person. It's like, no, that, that actually doesn't happen all of the time. You know?

• 30:44Lewis Howes?

  Moments of that might happen.

• 30:46Bozoma Saint John?

  Moments of that might happen, but it's not.

• 30:47Lewis Howes?

  Majority of the time it's probably like cleaning diapers and feeding and pumping and all the things that moms have to do.

• 30:52Bozoma Saint John?

  And sitting there and being like, oh, hell, I made a mistake. This, this is not what I wanted in my life, you know? And struggling with that. And there were so many times where I thought about that. You know, it's like, wow, like, you know, is, is, is this life what I actually wanted? And so then at that moment in December of 2013, I was like, oh no, I have to make the life that I want. I have to make it. I have to be an active participant in it.

• 31:20Bozoma Saint John?

  You don't just sit back and let the life happen to you.

• 31:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:23Bozoma Saint John?

  You have to make it.

• 31:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What was the biggest lesson during that time you feel like you learned

• 31:30Lewis Howes?

  about his regrets or about him not doing the things that he wanted to do?

• 31:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 31:36Lewis Howes?

  What opened up for you during that time? That shifted, if, if anything did shift for you in that?

• 31:42Bozoma Saint John?

  This might sound funny, but I think logic is what surprised me most. The logic of things. You know, the writing down. It's like, almost like the writing down of the plan. You know, things that make sense. Cause you're like, oh, I'm gonna do this, these things. I'm logically gonna take these steps in order to get to that thing, right? And all of his regrets. Everything that he wanted to do that he didn't get a chance to do was based on the logic of the steps to get to that thing that he never got to.

• 32:09Lewis Howes?

  Like just scheduling it in the calendar.

• 32:11Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Making the to-do list and then, yeah. And then it's like, oh, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna do that and then, all based on logic. Life is not made of logic. Life is magic. It's the accidental encounters. It's the things that you can't explain. The feeling that you get in your belly that makes you feel alive and glittery. Or it makes you super sad or you don't wanna get out of bed and the sky just looks gray. And then maybe one thing happens, you're like, oh, okay, I can do it. You know, that's, that's life. And being open to that is actually what gives you the experiences. So therefore, when perhaps you don't accomplish everything that was on your plan, you still feel really happy about the things that you did do, cuz it was also magical.

• 32:53Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and I'm not talking about like these big firework things. I'm talking about the little stuff too. You know, the new person that you meet on the way to somewhere, you know, or like the like meal that you had that you didn't think was gonna be delicious, that you just really savored.

• 33:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:11Bozoma Saint John?

  It was like, it was just magically amazing, you know, and just being appreciative of those moments. So again, it's like, the life is not just about like the big, big, big stuff. It's not the headlines. You know, so to me, it's like, logic is what I then threw out the window.

• 33:27Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 33:28Bozoma Saint John?

  It's like, oh, I'm not gonna live a logical life. I'm gonna live a magical life. The kind that is open to all of the things I can't explain. You know, that like the writing down of the list and the making the steps, da-da-da. You know, and I'm not saying that you walk around just like, huh, da-da-da, whatever happens today is what happens, you know, like, look, we all gotta be responsible, dogs, okay? But the truth of matter is that like, how many of our plans have been stopped because of logic? The things that you said like, ah, well, shoot, I can't do that because of this reason, that reason, and that reason. And sometimes other people's logic that actually stops you from doing things you wanna do. And so I wanna stop that. I've been active in being like, every time I approach a new ambition

• 34:10Bozoma Saint John?

  or a new idea or like, oh, I wanna take a trip here, and that logic starts to come in. I'm like, girl, where's that magic? You should, you better just step out and let the magic find you.

• 34:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:21Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and not stop yourself because the math is, is mathing.

• 34:26Lewis Howes?

  Right. It doesn't make sense logically.

• 34:28Bozoma Saint John?

  Nah, it doesn't make sense logically.

• 34:30Lewis Howes?

  Allow wonder and synchronicity to enter your life.

• 34:32Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, to happen. Louis, I can't tell you how many things have happened in my life that don't make sense.

• 34:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:39Bozoma Saint John?

  The fact that I've had the career I've had doesn't make sense. It's not, it's not logical. There's no stat. Even when you look at things like, oh, you know how many black women CMOs have had jobs, you know, for like Fortune 50 companies? There's no math. There is no, there's no data point. It doesn't exist.

• 34:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:58Bozoma Saint John?

  But I exist. So can you explain that? No, you cannot? So opening yourself up to like these things is what actually creates your destiny to like run the way that it should, you know? I'll give you one, one example. Um, when Peter died in December of 2013, I was at PepsiCo. I'd been there for 10 years.

• 35:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 35:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Uh, it was a great job. You know, I'd done many iterations of things and at that time I was the head of music and entertainment marketing. And so I had, um, been part of the team that did the deal with the NFL for the Super Bowl halftime show. I put Beyonce on that stage. Like, it was like, you know, it was huge. Having a great, exciting career. And then Peter died. And I looked around and I was like, man, I, you know. I think I wanna do more things, you know? Am I gonna sit here for another ten years in New York City like doing this? Or have I had enough of this? And as I formulated that thought, I went to, uh, I think it was NBA All-Star or something like that.

• 36:03Bozoma Saint John?

  And I met somebody that I knew very, you know, lightly. Um, who told me that Jimmy Ivy and Dr. Dre had started their company Beats Music off of the back of Beats by Dre. And that they were looking for head of marketing, would I be interested? And the job was in LA. My husband had been dead maybe two months. I had a four-year-old child that I was trying to figure out how to raise by myself. You know, like, all these things. And so logic would tell you that, no, sit your [BLEEP] down. You know what I mean? Like, situate your life. Figure out how to be a widow and a single mom and the main breadwinner. Like, figure that stuff out. Calm down, get some therapy. You know, just like, sit and be quiet for a second, grieve. Let a year go by and then figure out what you wanna do.

• 36:48Bozoma Saint John?

  But instead, I was like, hmm, it really doesn't make any sense for me to leave Pepsi, a long-established company, and go to Beats Music where it's barely a company.

• 37:01Lewis Howes?

  Some new thing, yeah.

• 37:02Bozoma Saint John?

  I didn't know what music streaming was. I had no idea what [BLEEP] that was, no idea. And, but, I came and came to LA and took a meeting with Jimmy and he was talking about stuff that I had no idea about. And when I resigned from PepsiCo to take the job,

• 37:20Bozoma Saint John?

  everybody told me it was a bad idea. It was when I tell you there was not one person who supported it. Not even my mother.

• 37:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 37:27Bozoma Saint John?

  No one. Everybody thought I'd lost my mind. People thought I was acting out of grief. Maybe I was. You know, but the magic was that that opportunity opened up the next ten years of my life.

• 37:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Bozoma Saint John?

  It was the magic, the spark that I needed. It changed everything for me, Louis. Everything.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  And what would've happened if you would've listened to everyone else's fears and not made the jump?

• 37:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Well, that, well, my friend, that's the great unknown. I'd be sitting, maybe still at PepsiCo, perhaps unsatisfied with where I was, you know? There's lots of friends that I have who are still there. I got a text from a friend about two days ago, who just left after thirty-four years of PepsiCo. And now she's trying to figure out what next to do. And so she called me to ask for advice.

• 38:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're the pro. You've done this before.

• 38:21Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and I just wonder for her even, you know? It's like, what if you'd spent twenty years there?

• 38:26Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 38:26Bozoma Saint John?

  The last fourteen years, what would you have done? You know? I don't want to get to the end of my life and ask that question. I don't want to sit there and say like, oh, man, what would I have done if I'd taken that leap? Just tried that other thing? Maybe you fail, but that's okay.

• 38:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:41Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, you can pick yourself up again. It's okay.

• 38:43Lewis Howes?

  For sure.

• 38:43Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious, so this will be, this is, I guess, the ten-year anniversary coming up at the end of this year of him passing.

• 38:50Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 38:52Lewis Howes?

  What do you feel like he'd be most proud of you that you overcame over these ten years? If he were able to watch you and speak to you? I'm sure maybe he speaks to you in other ways, but if he was speaking to you here in this world, what would be the thing he's most proud of?

• 39:07Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 39:07Lewis Howes?

  Of you?

• 39:09Bozoma Saint John?

  I think he'd be proud of the fact that

• 39:13Bozoma Saint John?

  I didn't let fear stop me from anything. You know? Because we talked about that a lot, too. You know, this like, it was so scary when he was diagnosed. Because it just, it really felt like it came out of nowhere. I'm sure other people probably feel that same way, right? Where something disastrous happens and you're like, oh, my God, what? You know, you weren't, nobody's planning for trauma. Nobody plans for disaster. And so, I think it's easy and probably excusable if I were to carry on life, looking around corners and being scared of what was coming. You know, what if I leave here and something happens to me? What if I find a lump? What if, what if, what if? You know, and living my life sort of caged that way?

• 39:58Bozoma Saint John?

  I don't think anyone would blame me. I don't think anybody would say like, ah, Boz, like you were just wasting your life. Like, stop being so afraid. I don't think any, of all the experiences of my life, I don't think anybody would tell me that I was living life wrong if I was cautious. And so I think he'd be proud of the fact that I am not cautious.

• 40:17Bozoma Saint John?

  That I'm freer today than I was ten years ago.

• 40:20Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:21Bozoma Saint John?

  That I'm living bigger today than I was ten years ago. And I hope he would be proud of that.

• 40:27Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. I'm sure he is. I wanted to ask you about what you said about, you know, when you you had your child and you realized that your life was completely different. It wasn't like, oh, it's perfect. Everything is perfect the first two to four years. And I have all this love and it's easy.

• 40:45Bozoma Saint John?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:46Lewis Howes?

  You kind of, it sounded like you were kind of, you know, resentful a little bit of this experience, right? Which it sounds to me is common for a lot of moms. And I've heard a lot of moms think it's going to be one way.

• 40:56Bozoma Saint John?

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:57Lewis Howes?

  And then the first year, it's like a slap in the face. And you get two hours of sleep a night and this and that. And your identity changes.

• 41:03Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 41:05Lewis Howes?

  Which is beautiful, but it's also a grieving part that happens as well, right? It's like you're grieving an old identity and stepping into motherhood, which is. Uh, and I think there's a lot of women that relate to that.

• 41:16Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:18Lewis Howes?

  How did you, after his passing, learn to, I guess, embrace it in a different way? Or have a different relationship with motherhood? Or do you still have that same kind of feeling from, from ten years ago? You know what? How did you experience it?

• 41:34Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, man. Well, I mean, it was, everything was so dramatic at the time that even my own thought of motherhood changed dramatically.

• 41:43Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:44Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, I do remember, um, actually the moment it happened. Uh, I was sitting.

• 41:50Lewis Howes?

  Like you remember you shift your relationship to motherhood?

• 41:52Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I remember. It's very, very clear to me. I was, Leil was four when Peter died. And, um, I was sitting in our, our bed. And it was like shortly after the funeral and, you know, people had gone home and it was super quiet. I was still on bereavement leave. And, um, Leil had climbed into my bed, you know, was sleeping next to me. And I remember like looking at her and just thinking like, like, oh, my God. I have to do this by myself.

• 42:25Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:26Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and the terror of that. Because again, in all honesty, Peter was the one who wanted children. I wasn't sure I wanted kids. You know, and then all of a sudden I was like, oh, okay. Oh, so you decide, you left. And let me here, you hear me, and let me here with her. What am I supposed to do now? And looking at her and feeling that terror and anger and confusion, uncertainty and thinking, God, she's four. I gotta do this for a long time by myself.

• 43:02Bozoma Saint John?

  And also feeling like I didn't have the answers. You know, feeling like I was ill-prepared for it. And so I did probably what mothers shouldn't do. And I shook her awake.

• 43:16Lewis Howes?

  She was asleep.

• 43:17Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, she was asleep. It was the middle of the night. She was asleep.

• 43:19Lewis Howes?

  You woke her up.

• 43:20Bozoma Saint John?

  I woke her up. Yeah, woke her up. And as I look at her, and I was like, and I didn't know what to say, but I just looked at her. She's like sleepy and looking like, yes, mom, you know, all innocent looking. And she's got these big doe eyes and she's like looking at me all sweetly. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing.

• 43:37Lewis Howes?

  You said this to her?

• 43:38Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I'm saying this to her. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing.

• 43:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 43:40Bozoma Saint John?

  And she's looking at me and clearly uncomprehending, right? I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing and I need your help. Need your help.

• 43:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 43:49Bozoma Saint John?

  And she's like, okay.

• 43:51Lewis Howes?

  Is this a dream? Is this a my wake?

• 43:53Bozoma Saint John?

  Okay. And I was like, I need you to tell me whatever you need. I need us to communicate, okay? Cause I don't know how to figure out how to do this. So we're gonna do it together.

• 44:07Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 44:09Bozoma Saint John?

  And all she said was, okay, mommy. And she went right back to sleep.

• 44:12Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 44:13Bozoma Saint John?

  And Louis, I'm telling you, that was the moment. That was the moment everything changed for me. Cause the thing is, I think before that, I had seen her as like a responsibility. You know, like I was supposed to step into this role of motherhood and like have the answers and know the thing and lead the way. You know, but that moment, I just felt so inadequate and so lost. And the one person who I felt could help me was the person I'm supposed to be responsible for. And so it changed our relationship because even at four, at that point, literally the next day, I was like, okay, now look, here's what's going on. What do you think of this? You know what I mean? And it became more of a partnership, a partnership in raising her

• 44:57Bozoma Saint John?

  than me having all the answers all the time. It also freed me from having to always be perfect. You know, that like I could grieve in front of her. And I could be confused in front of her. And I could say, I don't know. What do you think? You know, or like when, you know, a few years later, things got super busy and I was not available and you know, I'm running around and other people were critical of the fact that like, you know, I'm like this working mom who's out in the world all the time and where's my kid, you know? And like, I could go to her and say like, hey, so what do you think about this? Are you upset with me? Is this terrible? Is this a terrible experience?

• 45:42Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I mean?

• 45:43Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 45:44Bozoma Saint John?

  And, and

• 45:45Lewis Howes?

  Feedback.

• 45:45Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, and also give her the power to tell me. It is, it dynamically changed the way we are. Now she's thirteen and a half and has a very big say in how we are and what we do and she's, she's just such a blessing. You know, she's a wonderful person and I, I would absolutely be her friend if, if I wasn't her mom. You know, like I love her not just because I'm supposed to. I love her because she's an awesome human being and I really value our relationship.

• 46:20Lewis Howes?

  What's the biggest lesson she's taught you?

• 46:24Bozoma Saint John?

  That you don't have to be perfect in order to do a good job. You know, I'm certainly not a perfect mother, I'll tell you that.

• 46:33Bozoma Saint John?

  But she tells me all the time how great I am. You know, I wasn't home for my birthday, just this birthday I celebrated and she wrote me a text and just with gratitude, you know, she was just like, "Thank you so much for everything that you do." And I was just like, "Man, let me brush my shoulders off," you know what I mean? So yeah, you don't have to be perfect to be really great.

• 46:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I mean, you're in this transition phase now, right? Because you left your previous role at your career, when was that?

• 47:03Bozoma Saint John?

  Gosh, February last year.

• 47:05Lewis Howes?

  February last year, so a year. So you've been in transition from essentially going to the biggest companies and speaking and writing books and all these different things that have happened for you, to essentially pausing, making the next jump, making the next decision and going bigger

• 47:24Lewis Howes?

  in the career aspect. Obviously, you've got an amazing book out, but what have you learned in a year of pausing, making the decision on what to do next in terms of career? Obviously, you're making other life decisions and taking care of your health. And I see you doing all the things and living your best life all over the world that you do. And all your Instagram is great. But in terms of like career decision making, what have you learned in this last year that you could share for others who might be in a transition? Trying to figure out, "Ah, I feel like I gotta make a decision."

• 47:57Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, I felt like the last 10 years of my life have all been really big changes and really big jobs and you know, some risk and like all the things we've talked about, you know, that have led me to bigger and bigger and bigger. Ambition has driven me, very much so.

• 48:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:13Bozoma Saint John?

  Along with my gut, but it's been like just, "God, this and do that." And there's lots of headlines and lots of press and "first to do this and first to do that," you know? Lots of those.

• 48:25Bozoma Saint John?

  And stepping away from all of that, I had to consider Um, my ego.

• 48:32Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 48:33Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, putting that in check. Because it was the first thing that assaulted me. You know what I mean? That first thing that made me think like, oh, but gosh, who am I without that title? Do people still like me?

• 48:47Lewis Howes?

  Who, what's my identity?

• 48:48Bozoma Saint John?

  Look, okay, does the phone stop ringing? People stop asking you for favors and asking you to dinner?

• 48:53Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 48:54Bozoma Saint John?

  Hmm, and sometimes that happens.

• 48:56Lewis Howes?

  It happens. So you're not in that position.

• 48:59Bozoma Saint John?

  When you're not in that position, people will stop calling you.

• 49:01Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh, stop inviting you.

• 49:02Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, man, okay?

• 49:04Lewis Howes?

  Stop needing you.

• 49:05Bozoma Saint John?

  All of the things. And so then, you know, it's like, um, the addiction to that kicks in, right? And having to figure out like, okay, do I want another job? Because like, I like the work? I like the thing that I'm doing? Where's my ego?

• 49:27Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:28Bozoma Saint John?

  Am I trying to fulfill other people's expectations of me? Do I feel less than? Because I don't have this thing? That's been a tough one. It's been a tough lesson. I had, I had no idea that that lesson existed before I stepped away. And by the way, I wasn't even expecting it. Cause look, I think the last thing somebody would say about me is that I'm not confident.

• 49:50Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 49:51Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, uh huh, but look, there were, there've been plenty of times I've been sitting there like, ooh, but really?

• 49:57Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 49:58Bozoma Saint John?

  Am I really as great as I think I am?

• 49:59Lewis Howes?

  Really, in the last year?

• 50:00Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, yeah.

• 50:01Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 50:01Bozoma Saint John?

  Lots of moments like that. Where I'm just like, well, if I was so good, maybe I could just turn around and get another C-suite job somewhere. Show them. But who am I showing? Who, like, who, who, who am I proving it to? And do they really matter? You know, do they really, really matter? And so I felt like that was my ego working on me. Versus like what is actually good for me in my life. At this moment in time, as I am evolving as a human. Evolving as a mom, evolving as a partner, evolving as a friend, as a daughter, as a sister. Even as a leader. You know, like there, there's big evolution happening in my life.

• 50:42Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 50:43Bozoma Saint John?

  And I had to realize that some of that motivation was based on ego and not ba- based on what I actually need in my life.

• 50:50Lewis Howes?

  Which is what?

• 50:52Bozoma Saint John?

  Which is my own pursuit to get to my destiny. My ego's stopping me from doing that. Cause it's so easy to slip back into the thing that's comfortable. And some people would say that like, oh, well, a C-suite job is not comfortable. I can guarantee you it's tough as hell. But it is what I know.

• 51:12Lewis Howes?

  You're it's familiar.

• 51:13Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, absolutely. So yeah, there's some comfort in that. There's comfort in that.

• 51:17Lewis Howes?

  How does someone know when they're being led by their ego versus a more meaningful mission? That is what their destiny is pulling them to do versus what their ego says this is gonna make me look really good. Or prove people wrong.

• 51:33Bozoma Saint John?

  Well, that's just it. I think it's the why. Why do you want it?

• 51:37Bozoma Saint John?

  And being really honest with the answer. You know, because like, look, I had some offers after I left Netflix, people reached out and that felt good, you know? I didn't go pursue anybody. I wasn't like, oh, look, I'm available. There's my resume. And people were calling me and saying like, oh, so I just heard you left. Have you considered X, Y, and Z thing? Come over here and Tyson, Tyson, Tyson.

• 51:57Lewis Howes?

  Give me this stock option.

• 51:59Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 51:59Lewis Howes?

  Give me this signing bonus or this. You'll get this title, the press.

• 52:02Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah. Oh, my God. It's gonna be fabulous, you know? And yeah, it was very tempting. And I was also sick and tired of people saying like, oh, we know you've got an announcement coming, waiting for you to say what you're gonna do next. I know it's gonna be big. Oh, God, I was tired of that too. And so I had to stop and ask for why? Why do you want this, Bose? Why do you want this?

• 52:26Bozoma Saint John?

  Why do you want this job?

• 52:29Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and this and being really honest, because you can lie to yourself too a lot, right? It's like, oh, yeah, no, I need it because, um, you know, I haven't worked in this industry before. And I'm gonna learn something new in this job. And I know, you know, I've always wanted to work with this person.

• 52:43Lewis Howes?

  It'd be great for my resume. It'd be great for this. Yeah, yeah.

• 52:45Bozoma Saint John?

  I could get this other title and, you know, I'm gonna break this boundary and, oh, my God, aren't I such an inspiration? You know, you can lie to yourself and tell yourself like, oh, yeah, these are the reasons why. Oh, man, but then you gotta, at least for me, I had to really unpack that.

• 53:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:02Bozoma Saint John?

  And sit and say, no, no, no, for real, like, you lying, girl, you know you're lying.

• 53:06Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, when you look in the mirror and you actually ask yourself, am I doing this for the right reasons?

• 53:10Bozoma Saint John?

  Am I doing this for the right reasons? And no, I don't need another experience like that. I've had enough.

• 53:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, six or seven of them is enough at the theater.

• 53:20Bozoma Saint John?

  I mean, seriously, you know, and like, look, yeah, it's, I would say it's somewhat embarrassing, or I felt embarrassed when people would say like, oh, so what are you doing now? And I would say, um, well, I'm on a break. And they look at me in confusion, be like, but why? You know what I mean? Or like, feeling like, oh, shoot, I didn't even get invited to that dinner. You know, and knowing that all is because I don't have a title that people can work off of or trade in for some kind of value.

• 53:47Lewis Howes?

  How have you learned to like, again, by no means are you, uh, not as relevant as you were a year ago or something with the title, but with the, the, the feeling of, oh, I'm not getting as much maybe as a year ago of calls, although you're still getting lots of opportunities and people are calling you, but just that feeling of not being as relevant, or maybe I won't be relevant if I don't do this in the next two to three years. How are you addressing that internally?

• 54:15Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 54:16Lewis Howes?

  Around relevancy or

• 54:18Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 54:19Lewis Howes?

  audience or, you know, being the press as much as you're used to.

• 54:23Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 54:23Lewis Howes?

  Cause I know actors deal with this, with like, having this pause season. And while my audiences are growing, I'm not getting announcements, I'm not doing the red carpets, I'm not doing the things.

• 54:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Ew, that's a really hard one, Lewis. Because here's the truth of it, right, which is that, um, I'm a, I'm a competitor, a natural competitor, been an athlete, yes, always, always been like, and look, I haven't necessarily been competing against other people, although sometimes I have been, but also competing against myself, you know, cause I set those bars and I'm just like, I'm gonna go do this now, you know what I mean? And then winning at that and feeling like, yeah, I did that, yeah, I crushed it, you know? And.

• 55:06Bozoma Saint John?

  I have to some degree felt that way about this transition too. If I'm being totally honest about it, which is like, oh, yeah, I can step away from corporate life and crush something else. I'm gonna go do this, you know, being an author is something new. And it's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna win at that. But then I had, I would call the moment of panic, probably over the holidays. You know, it's like this moment is quickly approaching of like, oh, the book's gonna be out, and then what?

• 55:39Lewis Howes?

  What's next?

• 55:39Bozoma Saint John?

  And then what?

• 55:40Lewis Howes?

  All right.

• 55:41Bozoma Saint John?

  What happens? You know what I'm saying? So.

• 55:44Lewis Howes?

  You don't have a plan.

• 55:45Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, okay, now, now, what do I, what do I question next? What, what happens, you know? And am I having a wrong question? You know, like, there's, there's that, there's that uncertainty. And the way that I'm sort of managing it, if there's a way to manage it, is that I'm thinking about the phases in my life. You know, and thinking about, like, you know, when you sit and look backwards, and you look at the inflection points, and you can appreciate them. You know, and you say, okay, this happened, and then, ooh, everything changed, right? And I am trying to be mindful of the fact that I'm in one right now.

• 56:26Bozoma Saint John?

  This very moment is one. And so.

• 56:29Lewis Howes?

  And when you look back ten years ago, to with what you went through, there was, there was a lot of lessons and blessings and opportunities that came from the pain, the trauma, the tragedy, the suffering.

• 56:39Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 56:40Lewis Howes?

  That you wouldn't be where you're at without ten years ago, this thing's happening.

• 56:45Bozoma Saint John?

  At all, at all. And so in those moments, and truly, this is what happened. When I got panicked, and I was like, ooh, girl, then what, what do you do? You know, your book comes out, then what? You know, and I'm just like, wow, but like, think of what will happen in ten years from now, when I look back at this moment and think like, oh, you know what happened after that? You know, so just continuing to be open and being intentional about that. So the urgency in my life now isn't like, you know, how can I like crush this next opportunity and just like make this pivot be the best pivot ever? And you know, people are gonna be so inspired by the fact that I moved and did this and did that, I'm so brave. It's like, no, my, my urgency isn't actually just being present.

• 57:27Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, in this very moment in time and feeling like, wow, like there's so much to be thankful for. For the opportunity to change.

• 57:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:35Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, for the opportunity to do something new.

• 57:40Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:41Bozoma Saint John?

  Hmm, become somebody else.

• 57:42Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 57:43Bozoma Saint John?

  Find a different title. God.

• 57:45Lewis Howes?

  I think it's really cool that you're in this season, actually, and I, and you know, you were talking about the phases of life. I like to think about it as seasons and as an athlete, you know that there's always a, an off-season.

• 57:56Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 57:57Lewis Howes?

  A time of reflection.

• 57:58Bozoma Saint John?

  Hmm.

• 57:58Lewis Howes?

  Do I wanna go play the sport again next season? Do I wanna put in the training for this same sport?

• 58:03Bozoma Saint John?

  Hmm.

• 58:04Lewis Howes?

  Do I have a different sport I wanna play? Do I have a different thing I wanna take on in my life?

• 58:08Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 58:09Lewis Howes?

  And I think, uh, sometimes driven individuals don't take time for an off-season.

• 58:15Bozoma Saint John?

  Hmm.

• 58:15Lewis Howes?

  To reflect and it's scary.

• 58:18Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 58:18Lewis Howes?

  To sit and listen and recover. And after a decade, you know, well, more than a decade of your career, but a decade of since that happening, it sounds like this is the perfect time to take a season and reflect.

• 58:31Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 58:32Lewis Howes?

  And that might be two weeks, it might be two years, two months, it might be any type of time.

• 58:36Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 58:37Lewis Howes?

  And I really acknowledge you for being in it, you know, because I know how it can feel uncomfortable.

• 58:42Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 58:43Lewis Howes?

  But also being open to it and s- and speaking about it as opposed to letting it consume you, saying, yeah, I've got it all figured out. But saying, I'm in a season of recovery and listening to my voice of where I'm supposed to be called to next. And I think that's really cool because a lot of people, I think, struggle with that. And, and hearing you say it gives permission for others to feel like they're not alone in this place.

• 59:04Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, yeah, no, no, cuz we, we all struggle with that. We just don't wanna admit it, like you said, you know? But I also am working from a place of trust.

• 59:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 59:12Bozoma Saint John?

  Of myself, you know, and trust in my destiny, actually.

• 59:15Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 59:16Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, having the faith that like, look, I've, I've been, I've been in some, you know, some really, really, really, really terrible places and I was able to move in it. You know, and so it's like, even if I don't know what's coming. I have a lot of trust that it's gonna be alright.

• 59:36Lewis Howes?

  Cause you've gotten through a bunch of stuff before.

• 59:37Bozoma Saint John?

  I've gotten through a bunch of it. You know, and so there's, there's something in that too. Where when I, when I do feel afraid of like what happens next or. Whew, man, people have so many expectations of me, you know, they only expect great things. Nobody expects failure from me. And what am I gonna do if I can't meet those expectations? You know, I just, I sit and think about that. I'm like, look, I've, I've been in, been in some low points. This is not a low point.

• 1:00:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:00:08Bozoma Saint John?

  This is not a low point. It's maybe an, an off season.

• 1:00:11Lewis Howes?

  Right. Your life is beautiful though.

• 1:00:12Bozoma Saint John?

  Man.

• 1:00:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:14Lewis Howes?

  Living your best life, you're healthy, you're.

• 1:00:16Bozoma Saint John?

  I'm healthy, I'm happy. Got a great kid.

• 1:00:20Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:20Bozoma Saint John?

  Got great friends. My family's awesome. Some of them get on my nerves.

• 1:00:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:25Bozoma Saint John?

  But generally speaking, they're awesome.

• 1:00:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:27Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, it's like, this is, um, this is an off season.

• 1:00:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:31Bozoma Saint John?

  I like what you just said, you know, this is an off season, but it's not a low point by any means.

• 1:00:35Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:00:36Bozoma Saint John?

  And so I, I, I feel pretty alright.

• 1:00:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:40Bozoma Saint John?

  With like sitting and being like, okay, God speak to me.

• 1:00:44Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:00:44Bozoma Saint John?

  Tell me what's next. What do I do? I just keep sitting here? Okay. You know, I just keep sitting and waiting to see what happens.

• 1:00:52Lewis Howes?

  What would you like to experience as you move forward into the next thing? Again, it could be two years, 10 years, I don't know, but whenever you move into the next thing, what is the feelings that you'd like to have? Whether it's.

• 1:01:03Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:04Lewis Howes?

  A career, a business, a nonprofit, supporting someone else, doing it yourself, like no matter what decision you make.

• 1:01:10Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:11Lewis Howes?

  What would you like to experience and feel in the decision?

• 1:01:14Bozoma Saint John?

  Oh, that's a really complicated one because there's a, there's a lot of things I wanna feel, you know? Um, some of them are similar to past feelings.

• 1:01:24Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:25Bozoma Saint John?

  I wanna feel. I wanna feel accomplished.

• 1:01:28Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:01:29Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, like I'm doing something, you know, like I'm moving forward in myself, too. I wanna feel like I'm contributing to society in some capacity. You know, I think the past, well, gosh, yeah, all of my career. Um, but especially in the last ten years, I've had a lot of firsts. You know, being black, being a woman, uh, in spaces. And I have felt really purpose driven by that, to open doors that are really, really heavy.

• 1:01:57Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:01:58Bozoma Saint John?

  Um, and so I wanna continue to feel that, you know, and feel like I have a purpose in that. And in a way that will allow for somebody else to come behind me.

• 1:02:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:09Bozoma Saint John?

  You know, and do the things. And I, so in that way, I want to serve my community that way. You know, um, and community, not just me, just black women, but anybody who feels othered. You know, people who feel like, oh, man, they haven't been given a fair shot. You know, because of fill in the blank description, identity, you know? And that like, oh, can they look over here and say, ah, but she did. You know, so maybe I can. Like that, that feeling is, is so wonderful. And so I want, I want that. I want to continue to do that, wanna continue to feel that. And I feel like there are lots of experiences that are outside of what I've already done that can still accomplish that.

• 1:02:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What do you feel like will get in your way of making that happen?

• 1:02:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Hmm, not a god soul.

• 1:02:59Bozoma Saint John?

  Nah, no, nothing, nothing. No, I don't see anything that will stop me.

• 1:03:03Lewis Howes?

  Your ego, did your ego get in the way or no?

• 1:03:05Bozoma Saint John?

  No.

• 1:03:06Lewis Howes?

  You got a handle on it?

• 1:03:07Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, I feel like my ego only makes me want to do things that are comfortable. Or that like are in the past. You know, so if there's any check, it will be that, but I'm aware of it. You know, it's so much better to see the boogeyman. You know, shine a light on it and be like, I see you, you know, than like running scared from it. Like the, you know, I know my ego's there, I'm looking at it. And every time I pop his head up, I'm like, I see you. Don't think, I don't see you, I see you right there. Makes it much easier to face and like go forward, you know what I mean? So I'm, I feel like there are many things that could try to get in my way. But it's nothing that like I haven't already seen.

• 1:03:49Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:03:50Bozoma Saint John?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 1:03:51Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:03:51Bozoma Saint John?

  And like if there is something that comes up that I haven't seen before, again, I have faith in myself. There's so many things that came up that were surprises that I overcame. So why would I be afraid of the next thing that comes up? And there's so many of us who do that. God, in everyday life. And so sometimes I look around and like, especially when I'm like, you know, talking to a friend who's just like, oh girl, I can't do that because of the, and it's just like, but why? Like, why, why don't you believe you can do it? You did that thing and that thing and that thing. And again, it doesn't have to be like the world changing thing that got headlines. But like your everyday accomplishments, the fact that your ass got up today and did this thing.

• 1:04:35Bozoma Saint John?

  Simply went into that workplace that you feel like demeans you. And you still had a smile on your face.

• 1:04:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:04:44Bozoma Saint John?

  Like what an accomplishment that is, you know, or any, anything that you did. So it's like, why, why then do you not feel like you have the power to be able to overcome?

• 1:04:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:56Bozoma Saint John?

  The things, even if they're unknown to you.

• 1:04:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:04:58Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, that's how I feel.

• 1:04:59Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. I'm so excited for you, Bose. Uh, The Urgent Life, my story of love, loss and survival. I want everyone to go get a few copies right now. Get them for your friends if you know someone that you think is in a season of uncertainty, of still recovering from grief or loss in the last few years. Uh, there's some amazing lessons, stories and wisdom in this book. So make sure you guys check it out. Um, and if you're in a season of recovery or a postseason, this is the perfect book to read while you're filling up your health cup and opening other cups. So make sure you guys check this out. Um, how can we best serve and support you? With this book, where can we get it? And how can we find and follow you online?

• 1:05:43Bozoma Saint John?

  Well, I am still online as Boz on all platforms. I'm excited about the journey. And so I'd love some more affirmation and support and all the good things, you know, that can come my way. Friends and strangers alike, you know? I love the support. So that's the best way I think to help me fill my cup.

• 1:06:05Lewis Howes?

  So make sure you guys, you know, tag Boz on Instagram or Twitter or wherever. And let her, let her know what you enjoyed most from the conversation.

• 1:06:13Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 1:06:13Lewis Howes?

  What resonated with you, what clicked with you. And, and message her over there and connect with her on this. And if you get a copy of the book, make sure to tag her as well when you're reading it. And let her know what you learned from this book. I'm excited for you, Boz.

• 1:06:28Bozoma Saint John?

  Thank you.

• 1:06:28Lewis Howes?

  I'm kind of like, I'm, I'm really excited for you because when I look back at my off seasons, they're the best times. Even though they were like some of the scariest and, and unsure of like, what's my next identity gonna be? And who am I gonna step into? But as I reflect back and have hindsight on those moments, they were like beautiful times of what I discovered about myself. And I know you're already gonna have hindsight now, you know, you're gonna be, you're see 10 years out and knowing this is like everything you needed for the next decade.

• 1:07:00Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Lewis Howes?

  So I'm excited for you for this season. And I just think it's beautiful. It's beautiful that you're, that you're embracing it.

• 1:07:07Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 1:07:08Lewis Howes?

  You are, you are creating space to then create urgency again.

• 1:07:12Bozoma Saint John?

  Yes.

• 1:07:12Lewis Howes?

  For the thing that you're called to do.

• 1:07:14Bozoma Saint John?

  Mmm.

• 1:07:14Lewis Howes?

  Which I'm excited about.

• 1:07:15Bozoma Saint John?

  Look, you better speak that affirmation, come on. Let's go get it.

• 1:07:20Lewis Howes?

  I want to ask you two final questions that I asked you before the last time you came on, which I think was like four years ago or something. I think it was a while ago. And I think you might have a different perspective from where you were then. So before I ask those questions, I want to acknowledge you again for the space you're in and having the courage to be in this space and be comfortable in this space. I think as driven individuals, it's hard to take a step back sometimes and reflect and not take action on the next big thing. So I really acknowledge you for being comfortable in a space of not being familiar in this space. It's a beautiful thing. I acknowledge you for sharing your story about love, loss, tragedy, trauma, healing.

• 1:08:05Lewis Howes?

  I think it's really hard to do sometimes, especially when you're used to being a winner, successful, and building. So I really acknowledge you for that. And this is a question I asked you last time, I believe, and I ask everyone at the end. It's a hypothetical scenario, so imagine you live as long as you want to live, but it's your last day. And you create and accomplish everything you can think of. See your daughter grow up, and you live your life, and you have love, and all the things you want to do, they happen. But for whatever reason, everything you've ever created has to go with you. This conversation goes. This book, gone. Everything you've ever said on social media, gone. But you have three lessons you get to share with the world.

• 1:08:49Lewis Howes?

  And this is all we would have to remember your information by.

• 1:08:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Lewis Howes?

  I call it the three truths. What would be those three truths for you?

• 1:08:55Bozoma Saint John?

  Oof, gosh. First of all, what a wonderfully visceral, like, picture. I think first, I mean, yeah, based on even like, you know, the way I'm living, that that people would see my life as urgent and see it, see the truth in that. You know, that it wasn't done for the clicks or the praise or anything, that I was living urgently because that's what I was called to do.

• 1:09:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Bozoma Saint John?

  You know?

• 1:09:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Bozoma Saint John?

  I would hope that the other truth would be that I am exactly who I am.

• 1:09:41Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:42Bozoma Saint John?

  You know? Never pretending to be anything different. That my flaws...

• 1:09:51Bozoma Saint John?

  Were honest. They were known. And that I was still happy in it. You know, that I'm just being. And I would hope, maybe this goes against the rules that you set out, but I would hope that the legacy of my daughter, her children, natural or not, you know, and therefore Peters, would be happy and satisfied in their life.

• 1:10:25Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. That's beautiful. Final question, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:10:34Bozoma Saint John?

  Definition of greatness, you're right, this is the hard one. That's a tough, tough question, because it has changed, I think, you know? My definition of greatness has changed so much in the last 10 years, and more so in the last year, that now, today, as I sit here, feel like greatness to me, feels like I can get up every day and look at myself and feel totally satisfied. Like, if I can do that every day, like, what a great life to have lived. You know, not, not being the most successful, not being the richest, not being the most

• 1:11:19Bozoma Saint John?

  praised or lauded, maybe not even being the greatest loved, you know, but being satisfied.

• 1:11:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:26Bozoma Saint John?

  Yeah, that's great.

• 1:11:28Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, well, thanks so much, appreciate you. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple Podcast, and let me know what you learned over on our social. Media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how

• 1:12:11Lewis Howes?

  to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.