Red Flags To Avoid In Relationships & How To Find Real Love w/ Esther Perel EP 1277

Psychotherapist and New York Times bestselling author Esther Perel is recognized as one of today’s most insightful and original voices on modern relationships. Fluent in nine languages, she helms a therapy practice in New York City and serves as an organizational consultant for Fortune 500 companies around the world. Her celebrated TED Talks have garnered more than 40 million views and her bestselling books, Mating in Captivity and The State of Affairs, are global phenomena translated into nearly 30 languages. Esther is also an executive producer and host of the popular podcasts Where Should We Begin? and How’s Work? Her latest project is Where Should We Begin - A Game of Stories with Esther Perel. In this episode, you will learn:How you can set yourself up for a healthier relationship. Why unconditional love is a myth. How jealousy plays a role in a relationship. The importance of distance and space in a relationship. Why divorce rates are higher now than ever before. For more, go to: lewishowes.com/1277For Esther's previous episodes:The Secret to Desire in a Long Term Relationship: https://link.chtbl.com/1236-podThe Quality of Your Relationships & Life: https://link.chtbl.com/929-podThe Power of Erotic Intelligence: https://link.chtbl.com/732-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Esther Perel?

  You can love a person wholly without having to love all of them. Adult love lives in the realm of ambivalence. That ambivalence and living with that ambivalence is actually a sign of maturity.

• 0:17Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:41Lewis Howes?

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• 1:23Lewis Howes?

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• 2:08Lewis Howes?

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• 2:42Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Esther Perel. So good to see you. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy you're here. Back again, the fourth time. Every time you come on, people are captivated by what you have to share. And you've been working as a therapist for how many decades now?

• 3:02Esther Perel?

  Close to four.

• 3:03Lewis Howes?

  Four, almost four decades. You've got two massive podcasts about relationships and intimacy and at work. Now you have this game, which we'll talk about and we'll play the game here soon.

• 3:16Lewis Howes?

  But we had you on last the week before the pandemic started and it's been two years now. And I feel like more and more relationships have failed. And there's also been a lot of babies that have been, you know, born in the last six months because of the pandemic.

• 3:32Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like, I think the stats before, two years ago, was 50% of marriages fail. Do you feel like the percentage has gone up since the last two years? Or is it still kind of the same? Some people have figured it out, other people haven't, and people are, you know, somewhere in between.

• 3:51Esther Perel?

  So I'm not a statistician. And in fact, it is lesser than four than 50. And it depends by social class. More educated people marry later and divorce less. It's actually education and social class has something to do as well with duration of marriages. But I think what I would say as a start is that disasters are relationship accelerators. And that means that

• 4:25Esther Perel?

  What we've experienced in these last two years, I was here March 11.

• 4:28Lewis Howes?

  I know, it's crazy.

• 4:29Esther Perel?

  And I went in lockdown March 14. And so that's why I will always remember when I, the date of our last conversation. But what happens in a period of disaster like this, and prolonged disaster, right? With prolonged uncertainty, is that you have a sense that, especially in the beginning, we really had a clear sense of mortality. Things suddenly felt much more fragile. And when life is short, when you have that acute awareness of life is short, then you'd say, either, what am I waiting for? Let's move in, let's get married, let's have babies, let's, let's go, let's do,

• 5:12Esther Perel?

  because I don't know what happens tomorrow. Or we say, I've waited long enough, I'm not taking this anymore. You know, I'm gonna wait this out a little bit, but as soon as I can, I'm out of here. Because when, when you have a sense of mortality, and when you have acceleration, you basically have a reorganization of your priorities. What matters to me most, what can't I live without? And what won't I tolerate living with anymore? That is what has happened. And so typically, research has always says, said that in pandemics, in disasters, in large psychosocial events like that, there is more breakups and more babies. But we are just coming out of it.

• 5:56Esther Perel?

  So the babies are about to be born, and the breakups are now just proliferating. But we don't know, I think, the exact statistic yet.

• 6:04Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. I think before you mentioned that something like 50% of marriages end in divorce, and then, you know, 70% of the next marriages end in divorce.

• 6:15Esther Perel?

  Second marriages have a higher rate of divorce than first marriages.

• 6:19Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 6:21Esther Perel?

  I think that there's a lot of ways to explain it, but in, in, first of all, often children are older. Second, there is a sense that um I waited too long in the first one to make this decision. And I no longer want to feel afterwards where I say, I should have done this much sooner. There is less of a sacredness to the experience and you feel like I, I was, the first time you feel like, you know, depending on if you come from divorce of your, or your belief systems or your values about the, the, the stability of relationships. It, it means so much to break those vows sometimes. And then the second time, you've already done it once.

• 7:02Lewis Howes?

  I've already done this, I don't need to tolerate this for 10 more years like I did the first time.

• 7:06Esther Perel?

  There is less of a sense of, of, of shattering of all the grand ambitions of love and of marriage that you had engaged with.

• 7:16Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's interesting.

• 7:17Esther Perel?

  You've already done that experience once of dissolving this entire complex relational system that is emotional, psychological, economic, inter-familial. And you did it. And so it doesn't, it feels slightly less impossible, ominous.

• 7:36Lewis Howes?

  It's not as scary the second time.

• 7:37Esther Perel?

  It's not as scary.

• 7:38Lewis Howes?

  You've done it before, you know the pain, it's, you can handle it again.

• 7:42Esther Perel?

  Third marriages is less.

• 7:43Lewis Howes?

  It's a less, less divorces.

• 7:45Esther Perel?

  Less divorces.

• 7:46Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 7:47Esther Perel?

  I guess people have a sense that they finally have done either their personal work. They've grown up, they've matured, they've taken responsibility. They've got, they've gotten a sense as the constant factor in all their relationship is them. You know, so finally, maybe they took a good look at themselves. And hopefully this time they, it's not that they found a better person. It's that I think they have become a better partner.

• 8:10Lewis Howes?

  It's, I was talking to you about this before we got on the interview about how. My entire life, I've been the centerpiece of relationships not working out. I've been the core, I've been the person who's been involved in the relationship and therefore I've chosen and stayed in relationships that didn't line up with what I wanted. In my most current relationship with Martha, when we started dating, I was telling you this, when we started dating, I said, "It'd be really cool to enter a new relationship with emotional accountability, with therapy, with support from an outside perspective." We're both are working on ourselves and we're getting clear if we're in alignment with our

• 8:54Lewis Howes?

  values and our vision and our lifestyle for what we want to create. Where we're not just connected sexually or chemically, which is what I chose a lot in the past and stayed for, but more based on a different foundation. And it's been a beautiful experience for both of us to witness emotional accountability and therapy together when things are great, not when things are, you know, bad and you have to like repair something, but to try to build agreements as we build our relationship. And I'm such a fan of it, and I've been telling all my friends about this who are getting in relationships, like, you know, find something, find a book you can work on together, or a therapist, or something you can work on together.

• 9:37Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever worked with couples who got into a relationship early when there wasn't issues and they started working with you?

• 9:44Esther Perel?

  Many.

• 9:45Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 9:45Esther Perel?

  Many, many, many, many. So, the traditional, you know, idea of premarital counseling is one thing, but there's also, you know, people want to talk about conscious uncoupling, but they could also talk about conscious coupling.

• 10:00Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 10:00Esther Perel?

  Right? It's like, in the beginning, you're not in your early twenties, you're in your late thirties, you've had your experiences, you have a sense of what are the vulnerabilities that you bring to the relationship, you have a sense of what makes it hard to live with you, you know, as well. And, um, and you say, "I actually want us to go when we are still, when we still have a lot of what is called positive sentiment override."

• 10:25Lewis Howes?

  What does that mean?

• 10:26Esther Perel?

  It means that you get the benefit of the doubt, that you're still in multiple appreciation, that you see the bright side of things, that you see the cup half-full, that you're not yet building resentment and deprivation and... You know, the things that sometimes accompany relationships on the bitter side of of them.

• 10:44Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 10:44Esther Perel?

  And I think that I like it when people come early. I think it's fantastic. Uh, one of the big changes for me as a couples therapist over decades was that indeed, we learn that people come to therapy when there are problems. Therapy is a problem with a narrative. If everything's fine, why don't you go to therapy? And if you already need to go in the beginning, there must be something really wrong. Because who goes? And that is so old for me, that it's been scrapped, you know? You go because you have a sense that you want to prepare yourself. You want to bring your strengths and your challenges from the beginning into the relationship and and prepare it.

• 11:27Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 11:27Esther Perel?

  And I think it is a fantastic idea. It doesn't mean that you already have problems. It means that you say, I want to do a preventive approach.

• 11:35Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 11:35Esther Perel?

  I want to preempt, I wanna be mature about it. And um, and it's interesting because you talk about the distinction between chemicals and values.

• 11:44Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:45Esther Perel?

  Right? Like, and and you just posted a clip of a conversation that we had back then, exactly two years ago, where I talked about the difference between a love story and a life story.

• 11:55Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 11:55Esther Perel?

  It's a bit that. It's the, you can, you don't need too much consonance and of values to love somebody.

• 12:01Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh. What what is the difference between love and life story?

• 12:04Esther Perel?

  The experience of a of a love story, the word story is important, right? So the story of love is a story that can, I can fall in love with all kinds of people, with whom I would never live a life with, that we come from completely different worlds. We have different aspirations, different values, but in the midst of that, something very precious unfolds between us in a very small container that is deeply intimate and often deeply erotic. It doesn't need, how do we negotiate? Children, in-laws, economics, careers, uh, the political environment around us, all of that. We don't have to talk about any of this.

• 12:49Esther Perel?

  In that beautiful container of intimacy and erotic intimacy, lives a love story, a life story. Is a negotiation with the whole world. A life story, first of all, goes through a developmental arc. I may meet you in my twenties and now here I am in my forties, fifties, sixties. So it's a developmental arc. It exists over time. It needs to include change. It needs to include the addition and subtraction of new people. The death of people and the birth of people sometimes. It needs to include how we negotiate with all our friends. A love story can live alone in a little room without seeing anybody. You know, because it feeds on itself very, very beautifully. But a life story must include other people.

• 13:34Esther Perel?

  A social circle, a community, you know, activities, passions, hobbies, careers. There's a lot of other things. And those demand a consonance of values, of aspirations, of ambitions. The ability to not just foster the togetherness, but also to develop the differentiation. It's us and it's you and me. It's the together and the separate.

• 14:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And so the love story, when people develop what they consider...

• 14:08Esther Perel?

  That doesn't mean, by the way, I'm so sorry. Because I know what people say, but the life story involves love. The fear is that when I distinguish in this way, people, is there no love in the life story? Of course, there is love in the life story. But all I'm saying is, you can love a lot more people. And they're not necessarily the same people as the ones with whom you will have a life.

• 14:28Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. And do most people who develop a love story with someone else? And not also see if this could be a life story? Is that where you see it suffers or it struggles? If they're only thinking of the love story, but not all the other factors of life?

• 14:44Esther Perel?

  No, I think that if you meet someone, like I used, you know, I could go on a trip and have a beautiful story with someone, a nice adventure. That person belongs on the trip. It doesn't need to come back from the trip with you. And sometimes they come back on the trip and it takes another week or two of a lot of, you know, texts and calls and this and that. And then slowly you reintegrate your life and they become a part of a memory of a beautiful trip. They're a short story. There are a love story and a short story. You know, once you say, I think I may wanna live with this person, I may wanna build with this person. It's a different architecture and I need different materials for that architecture.

• 15:26Esther Perel?

  And part of the materials is love and feelings, but part of it is culture and aspirations and values and beliefs. All of that now starts to become important too. And sometimes when people fall in love or when people have incredible sexual connection, they think that that also means that they can build a life together. And sometimes that's the case and other times it's not. It is not a guarantee. A powerful erotic connection doesn't necessarily mean that you can also straddle a whole set of

• 16:08Lewis Howes?

  Life experiences. You know, I feel like a lot of people that I've known in the past have entered a relationship through a sexual connection. Sexual chemistry, erotic experiences, fun times, things like that. And then they start dating and then they start entering a relationship based on that foundation as opposed to based on what do you see for your life? You know, what are the values, the background, the culture, the religion, the money, all these different things? Do you want kids? Do you not want kids? And I feel like that ends up being a struggle for a lot of people, myself included in my past. Until I started, I tried something differently.

• 16:46Esther Perel?

  You first had the sex and then you met the person.

• 16:49Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, yeah. And created a story about who the person would be, right? Without actually communicating in a and giving space and time to experience who the person was, right? And same for them with me. Why do you think most people? Start things that way, you know, in general. As opposed to, hey, let's give it time. Let's ask deeper, more intimate questions like you have in your game. Let's get to know each other. Why do you think that is?

• 17:15Esther Perel?

  First of all, that only began to happen with the democratization of contraception. This is before the sixty eight, this was not possible. So it's not, it's very recent.

• 17:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 17:29Esther Perel?

  You know, that we start making love first and then we find out each other's names.

• 17:34Lewis Howes?

  Is that, is that, is that true all over the world? Or is that more in the US?

• 17:38Esther Perel?

  It's true wherever people can experience, you know, premarital sex, basically. In the past, you first had to marry in order to be able to have sex. And when I say in the past, it's in the past here. And that's when I was a teenager. And, um, and in much of the world, it still is the case. So we are part of a very sexualized society in which sexual freedom and sexual expression has become a part of our values. Right? Sexuality used to be a part of our biology. And now it's in a part of our condition. Now it's a part of our identity. And so we have changed the meaning of sex in the, in the culture at large.

• 18:23Esther Perel?

  And then we have changed it in our relationships. And so we start from a place of attraction. You know, am I drawn to you? Am I attracted to you? Am I, you know, so first thing I think when I swipe, what do I do? I look at, you know, where do I get a little frisson? You know, who, who, who catches my attention? And it's purely physical, you know? So it is, it is a recent development. It's for most of the people here, this is not their grandparents' story. So this is still in the family. It's not like you have to go in the history books.

• 18:56Lewis Howes?

  Sure. How do you feel like people could set up for a healthier relationship? As opposed to, uh, what would you recommend or suggest then for people? In order to have a healthier foundation? Seeing that it seems so sexualized now. Everything seems so like physical swiping, looking at someone's sexual identity, attraction, as opposed to, I guess, true intimacy and connection. How would you set up a relationship now?

• 19:24Esther Perel?

  There's so many different pieces to this. I think the first thing is, look, I am right about sexuality. I'm not going to minimize it, but I do understand that, you know, it's very important. It's a beautiful thing to have a powerful erotic connection with someone. But don't confuse the metaphors. You can have a beautiful erotic connections with someone, and that does not necessarily translate into a life experience.

• 19:51Lewis Howes?

  Right, a life story.

• 19:51Esther Perel?

  A life story. That said, the next thing that changed culturally, if you want to really take on the big myths, it's the notion that we are looking for the one and only.

• 20:03Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:04Esther Perel?

  The one and only, my soulmate.

• 20:07Lewis Howes?

  It's my everything.

• 20:08Esther Perel?

  Yes, my everything. Your soulmate used to be God, not a person. You know, the one and only was the divine. And with this one and only today, I want to experience wholeness and ecstasy and meaning and transcendence. And I'm gonna wait 10 more years. We are waiting 10 years longer to settle with someone, to make a commitment to someone, for those of us who choose a someone. And if I'm gonna wait longer, and if I'm looking around, and if I'm choosing among a thousand people at my fingertips, you bet that the one who's gonna capture my attention, is gonna make me delete my apps, better be the one and only.

• 20:47Esther Perel?

  So, in a period of proliferation of choices, we at the same time have an ascension of expectations about a romantic relationship that is unprecedented. We have never expected so much of our romantic relationships as we do today in the West.

• 21:04Lewis Howes?

  It seems like a lot of pressure.

• 21:05Esther Perel?

  It's an enormous amount of pressure. We crumble under the weight of these expectations because a community cannot become a tribe of two. This is a party of two. And with you and me together, we are going to create... Best friends, romantic partners, lovers, confidants, parents, intellectual eagles.

• 21:25Lewis Howes?

  Business partners.

• 21:25Esther Perel?

  Business partners, career coaches, I mean, you name it. And I'm like, seriously? One person for everything? One person instead of a whole village? So that's the first myth. And the notion of unconditional love that accompanies this is that when I have that one and only, I have what you call clarity, but translated into certainty, peace and freedom, you know, or safety, which is the other side of the same thing. So that's, that to me is if you want to set yourself up, really, the idea that you're going to find one person for everything is a myth. Keep a community around you.

• 22:06Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 22:07Esther Perel?

  Keep a, a, a set of deep friendships, really deep friendships, deep intimacies with part, with friends, with mentors, with family members, with colleagues, you know, that. So that's the first thing for me in having good relationships is, is diversify.

• 22:25Lewis Howes?

  Diversifying relationships, but not sexually.

• 22:29Esther Perel?

  No, no, for some people it will include that, for the vast majority it won't. But the notion that there isn't a one person for everything, and that that doesn't mean that there is a problem in your relationship when that happens. The second thing is stop constantly looking at people as a product, where you evaluate them, and you evaluate yourself. You know, in our market economy, everything has become a product, we include it. And so, love seems to have become the moment that the evaluation of the product stops. You have finally been approved, when you have been chosen and when you choose. This is Eva Illus, a sociologist who writes about this very beautifully. It's like, love finally becomes the moment, the moment you can experience peace.

• 23:14Esther Perel?

  You're no longer looking, selling yourself, proving yourself, trying to capture somebody's attention. It's exhausting. And once you are in that mentality, you also are continuously looking for the best product. You never say, you know, how can I meet a person who? People don't often talk about how can I be a person who

• 23:35Lewis Howes?

  That's so true.

• 23:36Esther Perel?

  Okay, so it's what you're looking for in the market economy of romantic love, rather than who are you? How do you show up? What do you bring? What responsibility do you take? How generous are you, etcetera?

• 23:48Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 23:48Esther Perel?

  Second thing, for what I think sets you up for a better relationship. And the third thing is understand some of the things that are really important to you. And don't get involved with someone on the hope that some things will change.

• 24:06Lewis Howes?

  Do things ever change with a partner that you want to change?

• 24:09Esther Perel?

  Yes, things do change a lot. I mean, not in, many different things can occur in a relationship, but it's different from I'm coming in here

• 24:21Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 24:21Esther Perel?

  to to turn things around, you know? Because so much of us wants the experience of acceptance. So

• 24:29Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 24:30Esther Perel?

  With acceptance, I would say this, another thing to prepare yourself. You can love a person wholly, W H O L L Y, without having to love all of them.

• 24:47Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean by that?

• 24:47Esther Perel?

  It means that the notion of unconditional love is a myth. Adult love lives in the realm of ambivalence, which means that relational ambivalence is part and parcel of all our relationships. We have it with our parents, our siblings, our friends, which means that we continuously have to integrate contradictory feelings and thoughts between love and hate, between excitement and fear, between envy and contempt, between boredom and aliveness. It's, you continuously negotiate these contradictions. That ambivalence and living with that ambivalence

• 25:30Esther Perel?

  is actually a sign of maturity, rather than continuously then evaluating. See, in the beginning, you evaluate, is this the right one? Is this the one and only? Is this the, then it becomes, shall I stay or shall I go?

• 25:44Esther Perel?

  How do I know I have found the one? Is the premarital or the pre-commitment relationship? And then afterwards, it becomes, is it good enough? We continuously continue with the evaluations, right? Is it good enough? Or how happy am I? Am I happy enough? So that's the unconditional love. No, we live with ambivalence in our relationship. There are periods where we think, what would life be like elsewhere? And then we come back. And then we say, I can't imagine it without it. This is what I've chosen. I'm good here. But it's a conversation. The idea that you will be accepted unconditionally is a dream we have for our parents when we are babies. It's not part of adult love.

• 26:23Lewis Howes?

  Right. So is unconditional love is not something that we can expect?

• 26:27Esther Perel?

  Unconditional love is a myth. So the one and only is a myth. You asked me, how do we set ourselves up for the best for relationships upfront? There is no one and only. There is one person that you choose at a certain moment in time. And with that person, you try to create the most beautiful relationship you can. But you could have done it with others. Timing is involved, lots of things are involved. So there is no one and only.

• 26:53Lewis Howes?

  There's no soulmate?

• 26:55Esther Perel?

  Soulmate is God. You can think that you have a soulmate connection with someone, that you have a deep, deep meeting of the minds, of the souls, of the heart, of the bodies. But it's a metaphor. It's not a person. It's the quality of an experience that feels like soulmate. That's number two. Number three, there is no unconditional love. We live with ambivalence in our deepest love relationships. There are things we like and things we don't. And things they like about us and things they don't. And moments they can't be without us and moments where they wish on occasion they could be away from us. And that's normal. Number four, the happiness mandate.

• 27:38Esther Perel?

  Continuously evaluating how happy I am. You know, if you continuously pursue happiness, you're miserable a lot of the time.

• 27:47Lewis Howes?

  What should we pursue instead?

• 27:48Esther Perel?

  We pursue integrity, depth, joy, aliveness, connection, growth.

• 27:57Esther Perel?

  Those things that ultimately make us say, I feel good. I'm happy about this, but I don't pursue happiness. Happiness is the consequence of a lot of things you put in. You pursue caring for someone, having their back, feeling they have your back, wanting the best for them, what the poly people call compersion. You know, those things you can pursue.

• 28:19Lewis Howes?

  Compersion, what's compersion?

• 28:20Esther Perel?

  Compersion is feeling joy for the happiness of the other person.

• 28:25Lewis Howes?

  This is polyamory relationships?

• 28:27Esther Perel?

  It's a concept that is...

• 28:28Lewis Howes?

  Where it's like they're with another sexual partner?

• 28:29Esther Perel?

  But I think the word is bigger than just, you know, contained within the poly community and culture. It is the notion that you want good for the other person, even when it doesn't have to do with you.

• 28:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:41Esther Perel?

  You're proud of them, you admire them, you enjoy their growth, their successes, you know.

• 28:48Lewis Howes?

  What about when someone says, you know, I'm with this person, they make me happy. What does that happen when you're looking for someone to make you happy in the relationship?

• 28:58Esther Perel?

  Well, the day they don't, you will say, they make me unhappy. Or they don't make me happy, but it's they, they do to me. I'm the recipient of what they do. They have the power. They can give, they can withhold. I depend, I crave, I long, I yearn, I respond to them.

• 29:18Lewis Howes?

  And what should we be thinking of instead of this person makes me happy? How should we, how should we approach that?

• 29:27Esther Perel?

  We give each other a good foundation from which we can each launch into our respective worlds.

• 29:35Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 29:37Esther Perel?

  A home is a foundation with wings. Or I like to think a good relationship is a foundation with wings. So you feel the stability that you need, the security, the safety, the predictability as much as you can, as much as our life allows us. And at the same time, you have the wings to go and explore, discover, be curious, be in the world, sometimes together and sometimes apart.

• 30:10Lewis Howes?

  What do you think happens when people are in a relationship? And let's say they're together for a year, a couple of years. And they decide, okay, we want to get married. But maybe one or two, each of the individuals don't accept something fully about the other person. Maybe there's like three things that they really don't like or don't accept.

• 30:28Esther Perel?

  Like what?

• 30:28Lewis Howes?

  Or wish they changed.

• 30:29Esther Perel?

  Depends what?

• 30:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I don't know, I'm just trying to think of something where you're like, I love so much, we have this great connection, we have so much fun and we're growing and building a relationship. But behind their back, you're telling your girlfriend or your guy friends, I wish they'd changed this, this, or this. I don't like this thing, I don't like this thing.

• 30:46Esther Perel?

  That's ambivalence.

• 30:48Lewis Howes?

  What does that mean?

• 30:48Esther Perel?

  Meaning that you have to be able to live with the contradictory thoughts and feelings of what you like and what you don't like. What makes you want to be here and what makes you not want to be here.

• 30:59Lewis Howes?

  What happens when we don't accept that, though? And we, and we like, you know, hopefully they'll change out of this or grow out of this thing that I don't like about them. What happens? When we're in that space? We're not fully accepting.

• 31:11Esther Perel?

  That means that when you get married, you're not just making a deal with your partner, you're making a secret deal with yourself that this is gonna change. And then when it doesn't, you get very upset or pissed because your deal with yourself, which you never said out loud. It's the private bargain you do with yourself. And all of us, when we pick someone, make private bargains with ourselves too. And it's often that bargain that is broken, more than the one, because the partner never promised you that this would change.

• 31:37Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. And so it just creates more resentment. When we want something to change, we don't accept them.

• 31:42Esther Perel?

  Expectations are resentment in the make. The more expectations you have, the more things you can be disappointed of afterwards.

• 31:50Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:51Esther Perel?

  Especially when they're not articulated. I think what you need to know is what are some of the things? If you are with someone who if you, if you go back to the erotic connection, if you're with someone with whom you have a very difficult erotic connection. And you know that this is something that really is important to you. Being seen, being touched, being held, being kissed, being stroked, being made love to is really a language that is very important to you. And you don't want to live without it, then listen to yourself.

• 32:23Esther Perel?

  If it's not an important part for you. Because that is not the way you express yourself most. Then you know that this is not the centerpiece of your relationship. You have other things that you share. If you know that you don't want children, or the reverse, that the other person doesn't want children, don't go in there hoping that they're gonna change your mind, their mind. Because that is not fair to you nor to them. If you are with someone who says, "I do not wanna marry", and you do, or if you are with someone who says, "I see love plural. I do not see myself just with one partner", and this is clear to you that that's not okay, or that you want it differently, listen to yourself.

• 33:07Esther Perel?

  Those are values that involve life decisions that you don't sit there waiting till they're gonna catch up with you.

• 33:18Lewis Howes?

  And what happens when two people's values are not in alignment? Can they still have a beautiful life story? Or do you feel like there's always gonna be some type of unnecessary struggle?

• 33:28Esther Perel?

  No, I think it depends on the degree to which people can live with what we call a sense of differentiation. Meaning, if I am okay wanting to go to church, and that's not part of what you do. We come from the same faith, or we come from different religions. And one of us wants to adhere to their tradition and wants to participate in the practices of their religion. And it's okay doing it without the other. Doesn't feel that that needs to be shared. Doesn't experience every time they sit in church, "I wish you were sitting next to me. Why do I have to come here alone all the time?" You know, that.

• 34:09Lewis Howes?

  So it's accepting someone's choices?

• 34:11Esther Perel?

  It's accepting that your choice, if you practice it...

• 34:18Esther Perel?

  You can accept to do it without your partner.

• 34:20Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. So it's you accepting that?

• 34:22Esther Perel?

  It's you accepting it. Of course, the other person, but the other person can often tell you, you go if you like to be there. I don't want to go there on Sunday morning, I have other things to do at that time.

• 34:31Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 34:31Esther Perel?

  Okay. Religion is a major one on that. Travel is another one on that. Children, work, etc.

• 34:37Lewis Howes?

  Family, in laws.

• 34:38Esther Perel?

  It's difficult to say to someone, I'll have a child alone, you don't have to participate. But it is easier to say, I will continue to practice my religion because it is central to me. You don't have to be a part of that. We have other things that we will share.

• 34:51Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 34:53Esther Perel?

  But you need to know to do that and feel okay about it if all the time. Now, that doesn't mean that on occasion you don't miss and you wish your partner, there's a great sermon. I so wish you had been there to hear it. Great. But if it's chronic and you just feel this hole all the time and you know from the beginning that it is a unifier for you and your partner is, and your partner doesn't show curiosity because you can come from something else and say, I'm interested in this. Let me, let me see what this is. If you want to go back to living your home country and your partner has zero intention of leaving where they are, listen to them. Don't hope.

• 35:32Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:32Esther Perel?

  If they tell you, yes, I would like that at some point, then listen carefully if they're saying this to pacify you, if they're saying this to make sure that you don't leave them, or if they truly intend to do this at some time.

• 35:44Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. And don't hope something's gonna change. Don't hope they're gonna do something later after you get married or in a committed relationship.

• 35:51Esther Perel?

  Start from the place that it's not gonna happen.

• 35:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:54Esther Perel?

  See how it is for you.

• 35:55Lewis Howes?

  Can you accept that?

• 35:56Esther Perel?

  Can you accept that? Then, if things change, all the better. But don't start with the hope that it will be different.

• 36:04Lewis Howes?

  Right. And how does jealousy play in relationships? I used to be extremely jealous and insecure.

• 36:11Esther Perel?

  I remember that.

• 36:12Lewis Howes?

  And then something switched in me, I don't know, five years ago. Six years ago, maybe somewhere around that time where I was like, you know what? This does not support me or my relationship at all. This jealous nature or this.

• 36:26Esther Perel?

  That you knew even when you were jealous.

• 36:29Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah, I knew, but I couldn't, I couldn't let it go though.

• 36:31Esther Perel?

  So it's not what you said to yourself that changed what.

• 36:34Lewis Howes?

  Something changed, yeah, I don't know exactly what it was, but I remember just being like, I'm tired of this. I'm tired of feeling this way.

• 36:40Esther Perel?

  So what did you change? Not what did you say to yourself?

• 36:43Lewis Howes?

  I think I changed fully accepting the person's decisions and lifestyle and what they were doing. And trusting that everything was gonna be okay. And not needing to be jealous. I think I was just afraid like, are they talking to some guy or some, you know, is there something behind my back that they're doing? I don't know. It was a worry of like an anxiousness, right?

• 37:06Esther Perel?

  So.

• 37:06Lewis Howes?

  And so I was just like.

• 37:08Esther Perel?

  Wait, wait, wait.

• 37:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 37:11Esther Perel?

  Part of what accompanies jealousy, you know, jealousy starts at one and a half year old.

• 37:16Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 37:16Esther Perel?

  It's not an early emotion.

• 37:18Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, interesting.

• 37:19Esther Perel?

  It needs a sense of self first. It needs the beginning of self-awareness as a baby. To be able to experience jealousy. It's not like fear and joy and disgust and sadness.

• 37:31Lewis Howes?

  So where does it come from? What is?

• 37:35Esther Perel?

  Where it comes from and how evolutionary psychology has all kinds of explanations for jealousy. But where it comes from interpersonally is that it requires having a sense of who you are before you begin to experience. How you respond to what other people are doing. I want that too. I don't, you know, I don't wanna lose something. What changed for you is that you became more confident.

• 37:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 37:59Esther Perel?

  You felt less that your sense of self-worth is in the hands of the other person. And that in they turned away from you, that means that you are not enough.

• 38:08Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 38:08Esther Perel?

  Or that you're gonna lose them or that they're gonna leave you. That's what changed.

• 38:12Lewis Howes?

  And then I'd be like hurt or empty or sad or. In pain because of their actions. And I think that's a hundred percent. I think I didn't feel like I was good enough or something. Whereas it's like, you know what? It's all gonna be okay. You know, if they do something or.

• 38:27Esther Perel?

  But this, it's all gonna be okay. Followed in different sense of yourself.

• 38:32Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 38:33Esther Perel?

  Where you were less in a panic. Less in the grip of they're gonna abandon me and I'm not good enough. And from that place, you began to see it's okay. Nothing bad is gonna happen to me. That's how we diminish jealousy. It's not how we react to what the other person does. It's how we feel about ourselves that changes how we react about what the other person does.

• 38:58Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. And it's been an incredible.

• 39:00Esther Perel?

  Freedom.

• 39:01Lewis Howes?

  Freedom and gift that I, that I received or gave myself. But it took me, you know, thirty something years to learn it. And it feels incredible. It feels incredible. But for years I struggled with it. And I think a lot of people in general, at least guy friends that I knew growing up, struggled with it as well. Where they didn't feel comfortable or maybe their female partner didn't feel comfortable with them doing certain things. Without them there or whatever. And now I'm just like at peace of whatever my partner wants to do. I'm like, live your life.

• 39:34Esther Perel?

  Have you ever had a conversation about jealousy with your girlfriend?

• 39:38Lewis Howes?

  I've talked about it.

• 39:39Esther Perel?

  Because it's highly cultural.

• 39:41Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Yeah, I mean, I've talked about it with her. I'm like, I'm so glad I'm not jealous.

• 39:44Esther Perel?

  Right. Americans.

• 39:46Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 39:47Esther Perel?

  Think that being jealous diminishes them. They pride themselves when they say, I'm not jealous.

• 39:54Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 39:55Esther Perel?

  Yes. It's a kind of a thing like it's not a nice thing to feel. Other cultures.

• 40:01Lewis Howes?

  Latin cultures.

• 40:02Esther Perel?

  It's intrinsic to love.

• 40:03Lewis Howes?

  It's how you love.

• 40:05Esther Perel?

  If you're not jealous.

• 40:06Lewis Howes?

  You don't love the person enough.

• 40:07Esther Perel?

  Yes. That's a distortion in the other direction. But it's very cultural jealousy. Jealousy, if you track the magazines in America, is a subject that disappears for decades sometimes. And then suddenly reemerges. But it is often seen as a negative emotion. It isn't seen as an emotion that is so simply part and parcel of the experience of love.

• 40:30Lewis Howes?

  Is jealousy then a healthy emotion? In a life story?

• 40:34Esther Perel?

  It sometimes can be a perfectly healthy emotion and sometimes it can be very, very challenging and sometimes it can become pathological. It covers a whole range.

• 40:45Lewis Howes?

  Where is jealousy a good thing? When someone has jealousy?

• 40:51Esther Perel?

  When is jealousy a good thing? When have you experienced jealousy and you didn't feel like it was debilitating and crippling you?

• 40:58Lewis Howes?

  I mean debilitating, I mean, yeah, I don't know. I think there might be... I don't... I mean, it was always debilitating for me, I think, before I learned to process it and let it go. Because I realized it wasn't supporting my thoughts and my emotions and I was saying or doing things that wasn't the highest level of love, I would say, or like the most conscious way to communicate, you know, when those scenarios would happen. So I just realized it wasn't supporting me and I didn't feel good when I had that emotion or those jealous thoughts in a relationship.

• 41:32Esther Perel?

  But if you were part of a culture that told you that jealousy is not something you want to get rid of, but it actually signals certain things to you and it communicates certain aspects of love, you would have had a different experience.

• 41:47Lewis Howes?

  Maybe, yeah.

• 41:48Esther Perel?

  You know. Now, when is it positive? Probably the easiest example for me is if I ask people all over the world, by the way, when do you find yourself most drawn to your partner?

• 42:00Esther Perel?

  Not sexually attracted, just drawn to.

• 42:02Lewis Howes?

  When other people are interested in that more?

• 42:04Esther Perel?

  That's one of them. That is one of the main four.

• 42:06Lewis Howes?

  When other people are flirting or giving them attention.

• 42:09Esther Perel?

  Yes. When I see them with other people, when I see other people captivated by them, when I see the magnetism that they have over other people, when I see how others are drawn to them, when they don't belong to me. Now, if you are jealous in a feeling that is really crippling and painful, then you do not enjoy that. You feel uncertain, you feel insecure, you feel scared, you feel like they could leave you. You realize that maybe, you know, they're not attached to you. But if you are more grounded and if you feel more secure in your connection to your partner and to yourself, then when you see that experience, you have a tingling of jealousy, but it is a jealousy that actually increases your appreciation for your person.

• 42:51Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, yeah.

• 42:52Esther Perel?

  So that's an example of when do people experience jealousy in a way that actually is fueling.

• 42:58Lewis Howes?

  Healthy jealousy, right, okay.

• 43:00Esther Perel?

  But I don't call it healthy and unhealthy, because I don't think this is a puritanical definition of health. It's just, this is the issue, is that, is it problematic? Or is it additive?

• 43:14Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that makes sense.

• 43:15Esther Perel?

  It's more than is it healthy or unhealthy. I think healthy and unhealthy doesn't help us in this moment.

• 43:20Lewis Howes?

  Is it hurting you or the relationship, or is it supporting the relationship?

• 43:23Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes.

• 43:24Lewis Howes?

  So you thought there was four ways?

• 43:25Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 43:25Lewis Howes?

  What's the other three then?

• 43:27Esther Perel?

  So let me ask you. When do you find yourself most drawn? What would you say?

• 43:33Lewis Howes?

  To Martha, I find myself drawn to her. I mean, for me, I feel drawn when she loves and accepts me for who I am. When she's affectionate, when she, um, is, you know, sharing appreciation with me and gratitude with me, when she's joyful in her most expressed self, like just pure energy and love and fun and play.

• 43:58Esther Perel?

  Um, I have a lot of appreciation and admiration for her when she is living her dreams also.

• 44:05Lewis Howes?

  Like she's doing what she wants to do fully. And I'm like, that's inspiring, you know, it draws me to her.

• 44:14Lewis Howes?

  What else? I think the fact that she is so in integrity with her word draws me to her. Because then I feel more and more connected and grateful and appreciative and safe in the environment, so.

• 44:30Lewis Howes?

  I mean sexually, so many different ways that I'm drawn to her.

• 44:33Esther Perel?

  But you, you know, when I say the first four, it's just simply because I've gone around the world asking this question. And I just began to see themes, right? The first one is when I see my partner in their element.

• 44:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, doing their thing, their best act.

• 44:49Esther Perel?

  Competent, radiant, in their element. It could be on stage, at work, on a horse, on a slope. You know, but it is basically when they are self-sufficient. And when they are radiant and they're in their element and they're passionate about something and they are alive. And all of those things also mean that I am not needing to be burdened by a certain form of emotional caretaking.

• 45:16Lewis Howes?

  She doesn't need me.

• 45:17Esther Perel?

  They don't need me, that's it. And when they don't need you, you can want them.

• 45:21Lewis Howes?

  Yes, if they're always needing you, how does that affect the relationship?

• 45:26Esther Perel?

  Let's wait a second. So they don't need you in that moment. And that not needing you clears the pathway for desire. It allows you to want. Because if you were needed and you need to take care of them, then you are loving, but you're not necessarily desiring.

• 45:45Lewis Howes?

  Got it.

• 45:46Esther Perel?

  And what happens over time when people say this, and the admiration is extremely important here. Because I think it's much bigger than respect. Admiration involves a certain idealization. And it means that there is a sense of otherness. She's different, she's other, she's her own thing. And in this space between her and you, between me and the other, lies the erotic elan. And when people ask about sustaining desire in the long haul, this is the place.

• 46:13Lewis Howes?

  In their element, in their own way.

• 46:15Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 46:16Lewis Howes?

  Not reliant on each other to be...

• 46:18Esther Perel?

  That's love. Love and desire, they relate and they also conflict. And herein lies the mystery of eroticism. So that's number one, in her element. When she's joyful, when she makes me laugh. When she, those two, it's like there's a sense of aliveness, of vibrancy, of vitality, of energy, that is erotic.

• 46:41Esther Perel?

  That is erotic, that's the number two.

• 46:43Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 46:44Esther Perel?

  You know, and usually it means when, when there is an element of surprise.

• 46:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, yeah, she's very adventurous.

• 46:50Esther Perel?

  Because it's unsolicited, but you know, sometimes people say when my partner is vulnerable. And I say, that is because it's not usual the case.

• 46:58Lewis Howes?

  Right, so surprise.

• 46:59Esther Perel?

  It's surprise. If they were always vulnerable, it would not be on the list of when am I most drawn to my partner. It's because it's different. It's the side of them I don't get to see so often. It's the side of me that they don't get to see that often. So when they accept me fully, and I can open up in a different way. Because it's different, it's unusual, it's out of the ordinary. That's number two. Number three is when I see my partner through the eyes of the others. That's the jealousy piece that you describe.

• 47:25Lewis Howes?

  When you see, so when you see others admiring or respecting or attracted to sexually or any of those things.

• 47:31Esther Perel?

  But what does it mean? It means my partner doesn't belong to me. It means that other people can look at them too, can fantasize about them too. You know, I always say, your partner doesn't belong to you, they're just on loan with an option to renew.

• 47:43Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, right, and every day, right?

• 47:45Esther Perel?

  Exactly.

• 47:47Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 47:48Esther Perel?

  And the fourth one is when we are apart. Or when we reunite. So that desire is also rooted in absence and in longing. And not just in being there.

• 48:01Lewis Howes?

  How important is creating space in a relationship, whether you're dating or in a marriage? And creating day apart, days apart, weeks apart, and has it ever become too long apart for a relationship to stay

• 48:16Lewis Howes?

  growing, if it's months apart or something?

• 48:19Esther Perel?

  So the first question is how important is distance in a relationship? I will also add something that I learned from the poet David White this week when we had a conversation together. And he talked about the importance of silence in a relationship.

• 48:33Lewis Howes?

  Not always having to speak or?

• 48:35Esther Perel?

  Yes, or the importance of being able to be with yourself. While being in the presence of the other.

• 48:43Lewis Howes?

  What would that look like? Like reading a book and the person's in the room?

• 48:47Esther Perel?

  Could be that, could be that you go away for a few weeks because you wanna go do a meditation retreat or a project that you're interested in or, you know. It's the notion that, or the fact that you keep certain things to yourself. But that you stay in dialogue with yourself. And a dialogue that isn't always shared with your partner.

• 49:08Lewis Howes?

  When you mean silent with yourself, you mean like not speaking at all? For part of this time?

• 49:13Esther Perel?

  Yes, but you're taking it literally.

• 49:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:15Esther Perel?

  It's literally, but it's also the metaphor of it. So I'll explain the context. Our conversation was called, because that's your question about how important is distance? I would say distance is very important in a relationship. But the way I define it is this. Every relationship straddles freedom and commitment, togetherness and separateness.

• 49:40Esther Perel?

  Connection and independence. Every relationship. In every relationship, there is often one person who is more inclined to the connection and one person who is more inclined for the separateness. One person more afraid of losing the other and one person more afraid of losing themselves. One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment. One person more in touch with the fear of suffocation. We all have both, but we organize our relationship in which one of us will take on the role of this duality.

• 50:18Lewis Howes?

  And it might evolve seasonally too.

• 50:19Esther Perel?

  Completely. So we need connection and we need distance. We need the things that are joined and together and we need the things that are separate. The separateness doesn't mean that there is deadness in the relationship. So when you ask, how long can we be apart? It depends what you do with the space in between. If you keep the space in between alive. We are away, we have been together five, six years and you have to go do a project and you're gone for three months. But during those three months, you have a whole letter writing experience. Where you are communicating in a very different way than the usual everyday communication.

• 51:04Esther Perel?

  Every two days or so at night, you sit down and you write a letter. Not just what you've done, the catch up of the day. But then you create an aliveness to that space in between. That can be even richer. That when we are living together and we're standing in the kitchen every morning.

• 51:22Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting. That's powerful, yeah. What would you say was the biggest challenge that you faced internally throughout relationships? That you had to face yourself?

• 51:36Esther Perel?

  Oh, I think, you know, I met my husband, Jack, when I was twenty two.

• 51:42Lewis Howes?

  You're what, you're thirty five now?

• 51:44Esther Perel?

  Yes. I like it. And actually thirty five years together, yes.

• 51:50Lewis Howes?

  Really? Thirty five years together?

• 51:52Esther Perel?

  Married, married.

• 51:53Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's amazing.

• 51:54Esther Perel?

  Now we're together even more than that.

• 51:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's powerful.

• 51:56Esther Perel?

  You know, but I probably swallowed the romantic ideal. Quite a bit as a young girl too. Are you gonna meet the right man with this man? If you meet the right person, you will never feel alone again. You will never feel lonely. You will never be sad.

• 52:13Esther Perel?

  Seriously. You know, whatever you feel, you will feel again. Until, some of it you may feel until you drop dead. But, but you will, if it changes, it's not because the magical potion of the other person is going to suddenly sprinkle its dust over you. So that was getting rid of some of the myths.

• 52:34Lewis Howes?

  How long did it take for you internally to let that go or evolve or heal those?

• 52:40Lewis Howes?

  Minutes.

• 52:41Esther Perel?

  Ah, yeah, I would say the first decade. You know, it's slowly over time, you begin to, you know,

• 52:51Esther Perel?

  you begin to realize that, I think, you know, he was, I looked up to him, I still look up to him, he's a very smart guy. And I really wouldn't let any idea leave the house before it was vetted and approved by him.

• 53:05Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 53:06Esther Perel?

  Is this smart, is this good, can I publish this?

• 53:10Lewis Howes?

  Getting approval.

• 53:11Esther Perel?

  Getting approval, you know, from the mentor.

• 53:13Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, that was the first ten years.

• 53:14Esther Perel?

  Yeah, no, maybe a little bit less than ten, but well, certainly five years.

• 53:20Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 53:20Esther Perel?

  Certainly five years. I really needed him to, to

• 53:25Lewis Howes?

  Validator.

• 53:26Esther Perel?

  Check everything I would write and to validate and say it's, it's good, because he had the PhD, I don't, you know, the whole. And then finally, I was told one day, you know, I have my own things to write.

• 53:37Lewis Howes?

  He said that.

• 53:38Esther Perel?

  I'm not gonna be your professor.

• 53:40Lewis Howes?

  I gotta work, yeah, yeah.

• 53:41Esther Perel?

  And I was just like, oh, who's gonna help me, who's gonna help me? You know, and beginning to write without depending on him that much was a major transition. Mating in captivity was written completely on my own.

• 53:55Lewis Howes?

  Without his approval of every chapter.

• 53:57Esther Perel?

  I had a, I had a, an editor that I hired who was phenomenal, but it was no longer, it was not an emotional dependency. It was a professional relationship. So that was a major transition. I think also understanding the difference between equality and equity.

• 54:15Lewis Howes?

  What is the difference?

• 54:17Esther Perel?

  It's not fifty fifty.

• 54:18Lewis Howes?

  The relationship is not fifty fifty.

• 54:20Esther Perel?

  No.

• 54:20Lewis Howes?

  No relationship.

• 54:20Esther Perel?

  No, it's a hundred, a hundred. You know, and, and complementarity, there are certain things that I will never do, that I rely on him, and certain things that he will never do, and he relies on me, and they balance each other out. And there's a fundamental sense of fairness, complementarity, you know. I, if I wanna go do something, it's just go do, enjoy, be the best, you know, this complete generosity. And that generosity towards distance, or freedom, or individuality,

• 54:57Esther Perel?

  this is a very important thing. So here's a question for you and for your, for your listeners as well. Ask yourself.

• 55:05Esther Perel?

  You can do it in relation to work, you can do it in relation to love. To me, that was a very important question. I understood early on that I needed freedom.

• 55:16Esther Perel?

  No, I would put it differently. I could tolerate the lack of security better than I could tolerate the lack of freedom.

• 55:24Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh. You needed freedom, more than insecurity.

• 55:27Esther Perel?

  Yes, so I understood early on that I'm gonna be self-employed.

• 55:30Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 55:32Esther Perel?

  Meaning, I can tolerate not knowing when the next check is gonna come from, but I prefer that than somebody telling me when I can take a vacation.

• 55:40Lewis Howes?

  And this was back in the eighties, right?

• 55:42Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, this is my twenties, early twenties.

• 55:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, wow.

• 55:45Esther Perel?

  But then I applied it to relationships.

• 55:47Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 55:48Esther Perel?

  I knew that I need to be with someone to whom I can say, "Go do your thing", and someone who says to me, "Go do your thing", more than someone who does this.

• 56:00Lewis Howes?

  But back then, that wasn't really, you know, thought of that much, was it? That wasn't really as acceptable, or maybe, I don't know, people didn't really think that way. Or did they?

• 56:10Esther Perel?

  Look.

• 56:12Lewis Howes?

  Maybe the US was different.

• 56:13Esther Perel?

  No, but you also need, you know, the same way that I said to you, sexuality changes in a relationship when you have contraception. Well, freedom changes in a relationship when you have economic independence for women.

• 56:26Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 56:27Esther Perel?

  Otherwise, you know, if the woman cannot conceive of her life separately from her partner.

• 56:33Lewis Howes?

  Then what happens?

• 56:34Esther Perel?

  And that, at that time, primarily male partner, but I would say all partner, then you cannot talk about freedom. Because that means you can't leave. It means that you continuously depend on the person. And the law supported that. It's a legal issue, it's not just a psychological issue. Economic independence is an economic dependence on the part of women and mothers was legal. It wasn't just a statement of her ambitions.

• 56:59Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Do you think more people are...

• 57:04Lewis Howes?

  Able and wanting to get divorces now because both parties have economic independence? And you don't need to stay because someone is providing or paying certain bills that you can provide for yourself and either party?

• 57:17Esther Perel?

  So divorce went up in the United States when women entered the workforce in a way that they could support themselves economically. And the law changed.

• 57:29Lewis Howes?

  Was that because they were more independent financially? Or because they were off doing other things and there were maybe distractions?

• 57:38Esther Perel?

  Because of economic independence, which would allow them, it's a few different things legally. It's alimony, so that children continue to be cared for.

• 57:47Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:47Esther Perel?

  And she's not entirely responsible for them, or she doesn't lose them and they go with the father. So now we're in the reverse side, you know, the tension is on the other side. But it's a few pieces. It's having, it's being destitute, it's losing your children, it's not having anybody to care for you, and it's not being protected by the law. Those four things need to combine with having an economic independence that then allow you to not be destitute, be able to take care of your children, not rely on your partner in case they don't support you or can't support you, etc.

• 58:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:25Esther Perel?

  So that is the history of divorce. You can't separate the history of divorce from the economic changes and the legal changes around family policy.

• 58:34Lewis Howes?

  How long do you think people should date before they get married? To really know, like, if they're giving themselves the best chance for not divorce, let's say?

• 58:44Esther Perel?

  Depends how they date.

• 58:46Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 58:47Esther Perel?

  If their dating is a, you know.

• 58:50Lewis Howes?

  Surface level.

• 58:51Esther Perel?

  Exactly, parading of the best things of me, then it doesn't matter how long, it doesn't change.

• 58:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 58:58Esther Perel?

  You know, but I would say that the dating. The most important pieces of dating. I think the dating is really bizarre at this moment.

• 59:06Lewis Howes?

  Tell me.

• 59:07Esther Perel?

  Because you date and you know, and you date alone. You see the person alone. When in fact, you learn so much more from seeing people in social situations.

• 59:16Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. You mean with their friends or family?

• 59:19Esther Perel?

  When you date, bring your person on date too, to people. You know what I did? I had a dinner at my house. And it was a bunch of single people. And then one of them at one point said, I actually need to. And I, they were talking about relationships and long term. And how do you know? All these questions that you're asking me. And at one point, one of them said, well, I actually need to go. Because I have a blind date. So I said, where are you going? Exactly. Where are you gonna go? To sit in a noisy bar where you can't hear each other? Bring them over. You'll know so much more. And anyway, she was really bold. She did it. The guy came too. So everybody doing their part. And there's about 12 of us there.

• 1:00:02Esther Perel?

  And he shows up. And we just tell him, we're in the middle of this conversation.

• 1:00:07Lewis Howes?

  No, that's crazy.

• 1:00:08Esther Perel?

  And then I, you know, but the point was, you know how much we learned about this guy? And she learned about him, but we all did too.

• 1:00:16Lewis Howes?

  Learned a lot.

• 1:00:16Esther Perel?

  A lot. Who he was and the family, where he's from, and he's thinking about couples. I mean, seriously.

• 1:00:24Lewis Howes?

  And he was adventurous? He was willing to come and be a part of this experiment?

• 1:00:28Esther Perel?

  The whole thing. And I actually ran into this woman a few years later.

• 1:00:32Lewis Howes?

  Were they still dating or no?

• 1:00:33Esther Perel?

  No, they didn't date, but she never forgot it. And neither did he, and neither did I.

• 1:00:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:00:38Esther Perel?

  You know, bring people you meet in your circle. First of all, your friends see things that you don't see.

• 1:00:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Esther Perel?

  And they often don't wanna tell you. And they see it, and they know you. Second of all, you'll see how a person interacts with the social circle rather than, you know, in this kind of... Dissociated space. So I think that this notion of we sit alone, we sit alone, we sit alone, and only later do we begin to introduce each other.

• 1:01:09Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. Months later, right? Let me introduce them now to the family. Let me introduce them after six months sometimes. And then like, huh, I don't like this, this and this. But now you're already developing something.

• 1:01:20Esther Perel?

  I ask my boys, you know, I said, did your friends meet her?

• 1:01:23Lewis Howes?

  Ah.

• 1:01:24Esther Perel?

  Who knows her?

• 1:01:25Lewis Howes?

  No one.

• 1:01:26Esther Perel?

  You know, I mean, you make sure they, why?

• 1:01:30Lewis Howes?

  Expose them to people quickly.

• 1:01:32Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes. And you don't have to go and get them checked. It's not that. You can go and to, you know, go to a concert, share some activity together. But you will learn about, we learn about people not in a vacuum. We learn about people in social situations. You learn about people in how they treat the cab driver, the waiter, the dry cleaner.

• 1:01:56Lewis Howes?

  Everything.

• 1:01:56Esther Perel?

  The person on the street, the homeless person, the policeman, everybody. Just watch people in, in action. See how they relate to others while they're trying to be super nice to you.

• 1:02:08Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:02:09Esther Perel?

  And that is a more precise piece of information than how long should we do it?

• 1:02:14Lewis Howes?

  Yes, that's, that's powerful. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys. So share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.