How To Create Boundaries With A Narcissist w/Dr. Ramani Durvasula (PART 2) EP 1196

Today’s guest is Dr. Ramani Durvasula. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist and Professor of Psychology at California State University in Los Angeles. The focus of Dr. Ramani’s clinical, academic and consultative work is the cause and impact of narcissism and high-conflict, entitled, antagonistic personality styles on human relationships, mental health, and societal expectations. She’s also the best-selling author of “Don’t You Know Who I Am?”: How to Stay Sane in the Era of Narcissism, Entitlement and Incivility. This is a topic that truly fascinated me so much that I split this episode into two parts! Make sure to listen to part 1 by going to www.lewishowes.com/1195In this episode we discuss the biggest misconceptions about narcissists, the essential components of every healthy relationship, the red flags to watch out for in your own relationships, the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic personality traits, the key to loving yourself in a more fulfilling way, how to create boundaries with a narcissist, and so much more! For more go to - www.lewishowes.com/1196Read Dr. Ramani's books - https://www.amazon.com/Dont-You-Know-Who-Entitlement/dp/1682617521 & https://www.amazon.com/Should-Stay-Surviving-Narcissistic-Relationship/dp/1618688782Check out her website - http://doctor-ramani.com/The Power of Erotic Intelligence with Esther Perel: https://link.chtbl.com/732-podFind Lasting Love with Matthew Hussey: https://link.chtbl.com/811-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 1,196 with Dr. Ramani de Vosula, part two. Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:31Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back, my friend. We had such a massive response to our initial episode with Dr. Ramani de Vosula, and I wanted to unpack this even more. So we made this two parts. We dove in deeper. And if you didn't hear part one yet, check it out after this one. Dr. Ramani is a licensed clinical psychologist and a professor of psychology at California State University in Los Angeles. She's also the bestselling author of Don't You Know Who I Am? How to Stay Sane in the Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Insevility. Again, this is a topic that has truly fascinated me. So make sure to check out part one. You can go to the previous episode on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening, or go to the link

• 1:12Lewis Howes?

  lewishouse.com/1195 to listen to that as well. In this episode, we discuss the biggest misconceptions about narcissists, the essential components of every healthy relationship, the red flags to watch out for in your own relationships, the difference between narcissistic personality disorder and narcissistic personality traits, the key to loving yourself in a more fulfilling way, how to create boundaries with a narcissist, and this is fascinating, and so many more things. Again, if you're finding value out of this, and at any moment, make sure to share this link with friends, family, post it on social media. I had a woman reach out to me and say, wow, I sent this to my mother, and I realized I'm starting to heal so much because my father was a narcissist, and I wasn't even aware of it until I can

• 1:55Lewis Howes?

  listen to this episode now and really unpack a lot of this. So I'm assuming someone in your life was or is a narcissist, and hopefully this will support you in navigating it so you don't feel drained, you don't feel like you're lost in this relationship and confused anymore. Hopefully this gives you some clarity and some peace of mind. And a quick reminder, if this is your first time here, we'd love for you to click subscribe over on Apple Podcast right now or on Spotify. And leave us your feedback, leave us your thoughts on how this influenced and impacted you by leaving a review at the end of this episode. And I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week from Nick Chelsin, who said, one of my new favorites. I just started listening to the school of greatness this week and it's already one of my new favorites. Lewis has a great variety of guests and asks great questions. 10 out of 10, I would recommend.

• 2:38Lewis Howes?

  So Nick, thank you for being the fan of the week. And again, if you guys want a chance to be shouted out on the podcast as a fan of the week, then leave us a review over on Apple Podcast right now. Okay. Excited about this one. In just a moment, the one and only Dr. Ramani de Vasula.

• 2:57Lewis Howes?

  What's the biggest misconceptions about a narcissist then?

• 3:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That they love themselves.

• 3:01Lewis Howes?

  They don't love themselves?

• 3:02Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Oh, hell no. It's self-loathing. This is a disorder of self-loathing. All that inadequacy and ugly insecurity. They hate themselves.

• 3:10Lewis Howes?

  But then they put it on other people.

• 3:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Project it onto other people. You're a horrible, lying, disgusting person. You make me sick.

• 3:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 3:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Talking about themselves.

• 3:21Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 3:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Sometimes you just want to give them a hug.

• 3:23Lewis Howes?

  So narcissists are miserable.

• 3:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They're miserable. Miserable. Miserable. It's awful. It's a, I actually say that the compassion we can find in ourselves is, people like, I want to get revenge on them. I say, you don't have to. They have to keep being them.

• 3:37Lewis Howes?

  They have to live with it.

• 3:38Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  The universe wins on that one. Like, they have to keep being them. It is a, imagine every day you're comparing yourself to everyone. You're thinking, they have that and they have that. How come I don't have this? And how come this? And they're constantly anxious. They're constantly angry. They constantly feel like a victim. They feel like everyone is out to get them. That's a very difficult way to live.

• 3:59Lewis Howes?

  Their nervous system must be always heightened too.

• 4:01Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Kind of, kind of. Yeah. Different than their psychopathic cousins there, obviously.

• 4:04Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't feel, yeah.

• 4:06Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah. But narcissists really, really, it's a very uncomfortable way to live because you always feel like, they always feel like they're getting the short end of the stick.

• 4:14Lewis Howes?

  And so what are the signs then if you're a kid? And you've thought one thing about your parents, but all of a sudden you're starting to see like, oh, maybe they might have a parent who's narcissistic. What would you be, what would you say are the main signs if a parent for a kid would be narcissistic?

• 4:28Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I don't think, let's say a child is anyone under 13. I don't even think kids start understanding that their parents are messed up until they're in around middle school or high school. Selfishness, inattentive, real inattentiveness.

• 4:42Lewis Howes?

  Dismissiveness.

• 4:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Dismissiveness.

• 4:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Devaluation of their emotions, shaming them, humiliating them, expecting them to be like them, devaluing them if they don't excel at the things they want. What do you mean you don't want to go to Harvard? Or like, ugh, you want to go to that college? Like any kind of contemptuous dismissiveness of their children. That's all narcissistic parent behavior.

• 5:04Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:06Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Rage, rage is a big one. And I think that's probably the one my clients have brought up.

• 5:09Lewis Howes?

  Anger.

• 5:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Anger, but rage, like that walking on eggshells. If anyone says to me, I felt like I was always walking on eggshells around my parent, probably dealing with an antagonistic, a narcissistic parent.

• 5:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think I was telling you beforehand, I was, I felt that for a part of my life and then things started to shift. But I've definitely walked on eggshells for many relationships in the past, which makes me be like, why did I jump into different relationships where I felt that way? Which maybe I hadn't learned to heal the past yet, or I hadn't learned to.

• 5:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But you didn't jump into a relationship.

• 5:42Lewis Howes?

  I didn't feel that in the beginning.

• 5:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You didn't feel it at the beginning.

• 5:44Lewis Howes?

  But it was like six to 12 months later when I was like.

• 5:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Then you justified.

• 5:47Lewis Howes?

  Then I justified, oh, let's just get back to where it was.

• 5:50Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  One of the great, I would say your greatest vulnerability, quite frankly, to narcissistic relationships.

• 5:55Lewis Howes?

  Give it to me.

• 5:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Is your history as an athlete. Athletes are actually at not only a great risk of being narcissistic, but for falling for narcissists.

• 6:03Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 6:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And a lot of that is because for any gifted athlete, all you needed to do was work harder. You just had to go to the gym, or had to run, or do whatever. Whatever it was you needed to do, it just meant more reps.

• 6:16Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 6:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  There was always a way to make it better. You're gonna, you're gonna do the Sunday workout. You're gonna go to the gym at four in the morning.

• 6:22Lewis Howes?

  Five, that's it.

• 6:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right?

• 6:23Lewis Howes?

  That's what I did.

• 6:23Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And so, the more, and you had this belief, you were, you got better. And you were in control. So the belief is, you could extend that to anyone. I just gotta talk, talk to them harder. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be more clear. I'm gonna make this work.

• 6:36Lewis Howes?

  More loving, more present, more giving.

• 6:37Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Everything becomes a workout.

• 6:39Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, this is what I did in the last 10 years. In every relationship for the last 10 years. And I remember just being like, it would, never felt enough. And it was always draining to give, it was never enough what I gave. There was always something wrong with me. There was always something to pick at. And they never wanted to go to therapy with me. I was, it was funny, cause I was like, what meant, you know, I don't want to generalize, but I was like, I'm a guy who wants to go to therapy and get feedback from my, like, I'm not perfect. Give me feedback. Tell me how to improve, cause I'm an athlete. And I'm like, I want to improve. And they never wanted to, and I was just like, I, I think women would kill for this, you know, for a guy who wanted to go to therapy with them.

• 7:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Not a narcissistic woman.

• 7:17Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 7:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But that idea of surrender is kind of actually the opposite of what an athlete is conditioned to become, right? And that's really the core of the narcissistic relationship. It's a sense of surrender. I'm not engaging with this. I'm not doing this. It doesn't work. And then you just fold it and step away.

• 7:34Lewis Howes?

  No, it was more like, I want to make this work. What can I do to make it better? How can I improve? Tell me what I can do. I'm here, I'll support, I'll do this. And then it just, it drains your energy.

• 7:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Athletes, entrepreneurs are at risk. Anyone who's a doer and it's worked for them, they're screwed.

• 7:49Lewis Howes?

  It wasn't until I really started lifting the veil, which my therapist talks about, is like, I started to really realize like, okay, I don't need to keep working, working, working. You talked about this when you were in a recent video, is like, that marriage and relationships should be hard work, is kind of the narrative. And when I realized like it shouldn't feel like it should feel like commitment and there's attention and presence, but it shouldn't feel like this draining hard work.

• 8:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  No.

• 8:15Lewis Howes?

  Otherwise, otherwise I'd rather be single if that's the way it is.

• 8:18Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Exactly, and I think that that, and I have to tell you, a lot of people have had a lot of harm done to them in therapy, where therapists say to them.

• 8:24Lewis Howes?

  It's hard work.

• 8:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Relationships are hard work. No, no, no, no, no, it's not. I mean, yeah, maybe having to say no, like having to sit through a football game you don't want to watch. I don't know if that's hard work, like because they sat and watched your French film with you.

• 8:36Lewis Howes?

  It's just an uncomfortable moment.

• 8:37Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I'm just gonna read my book while you watch your football game. Like, we're good.

• 8:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's fine. I can show up for a few hours.

• 8:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's not hard work. Hard, you know, and the other person's kind. Again, every healthy relationship, every healthy relationship has the same core ingredients. Kindness, compassion, patience, mutuality of regard, reciprocity, um, respect, every, every, every, every single one. And as long as you got that.

• 9:03Lewis Howes?

  Flexibility.

• 9:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Flexibility, no narcissistic relationship has even one of those ingredients. So that's why they don't work. They don't work. So yeah, they're always going to be hard work because you have not one of the essential ingredients. Like you're trying to make a, bake a cake without flour, eggs, or sugar. Good luck with that.

• 9:20Lewis Howes?

  How do you know when you're entering a new relationship, the person is not a narcissist? Like maybe you've been in a narcissistic relationship, or your parent was, or whatever it is, and you have some PTS from those experiences. And you feel like, well, I'm supposed to be walking on eggshells, but I don't need to. It's kind of healthy. Like, is the shoe gonna drop? Like, when you know the person isn't a narcissist, how long does that take to find out?

• 9:45Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  About the same amount of time it takes to discover that they are, in the sense that, the difference is narcissists actually, there's red flags, right? I call these green flags. Green flags mean go. And green flags are things like... Watch the person, watch how the person behaves under conditions of stress. So let's say that you're running late to the airport. Great, that's a great example of a stress, right? How are they acting? And are they, you know, they're saying, "Oh, I'm a little worried about this, but we're gonna make it work and listen. What's the worst is it gonna happen? We'll get rebooked." And they're calm and like, you know, "Listen, I'm just glad to be here with you. Like, we'll figure it out."

• 10:20Lewis Howes?

  To make the most of the moment.

• 10:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, "We'll go to an airport hotel, we'll be up to, but we're gonna be fine." A narcissist when they're running late to the airport? Oh, oh no, no, no, no.

• 10:28Lewis Howes?

  What happens?

• 10:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And it's just, it's just, I'm not gonna curse, right? But it's chaos, stress, accusations. This is your fault, entitlement. "Let me speak to the manager, get me on that plane, get that plane back to the gate."

• 10:41Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 10:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's the narcissist, right? Whereas with the, with somebody, you watch them. And it doesn't have to be something as dramatic as the airport. It could be even something like, "Hey, I noticed you've been working late. How about I make some dinner?" So it's the noticing, it's the presence, it's the mindfulness, it's the willingness to be flexible and make compromise when it's needed, to meet you halfway, to listen to you. And more than anything is to also see the growth potential in you. So not to be threatened by your own success. So if you go up to this person and you're like, "Hey, you know what? I got this totally cool new opportunity." And the healthy person says, "That is amazing. You have worked your whole life, I saw this in you. What can we do to make this work for you?"

• 11:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Whereas everybody else, not just narcissists, but insecure people will say, "Oh, I guess that's just gonna mean more time away and you're gonna be traveling a lot and there's gonna be a lot of women on the road." And you're like, "Oh my gosh, they just got the job of their dreams."

• 11:40Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, this is bringing back so many memories to me.

• 11:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's the key. And I'm a big believer that, you know, there's actually something in, I'm going a little off topic, but you're an off-topic guy, you can handle it. There's something called the Michelangelo phenomenon. One person in the relationship sees the absolute potential in the other in such a way that they say, "What do we need to do to get you, to get you to your dream?" Like, do we need to, should we, like, should we take a second on the house? Should we? Cut back, you know, should we move closer in? Like, because I see, or you know what can be as simple as they eat a cake that their partner made and said, "Okay, this is the best cake I've ever had. Have you ever thought of making this into a business?" Or a partner of yours might have said, "You ask the most amazing questions. You need a podcast."

• 12:27Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Like, it's seeing that something bigger in the person.

• 12:31Lewis Howes?

  That's a good thing.

• 12:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's the Michelangelo phenomenon. That's everything.

• 12:34Lewis Howes?

  That's a good thing.

• 12:35Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's the best thing. And very few relationships get that. Because what you've got to do is that person who's saying, "Go be your best you", is secure enough to say, "I'm not gonna lose you."

• 12:46Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 12:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Like, "I see all the good in you."

• 12:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 12:49Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And that-

• 12:49Lewis Howes?

  And I want the best for you.

• 12:50Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And I want the best for you, and I believe in you, and I'm here with you. And that might even mean the person encouraging you might have to make sacrifice. Things like, you know, "I know that you're gonna have to go take this course for six months, and I may not see you, and that's okay, because this is our future together." That's the Michelangelo phenomenon, never, ever-

• 13:09Lewis Howes?

  What's the opposite of that?

• 13:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Narcissistic relationship.

• 13:11Lewis Howes?

  And in the previous, I would say, ten years of my relationships, I think I was just really good at choosing specific people, because I was always like, I always saw the masterpiece. And I said, "You're a masterpiece, and I can see what's possible for you with all these skills and gifts." But there was like some insecurities with some of them, not all of them. And they never were able to see it within themselves. They weren't able to see it. And then I remember, when I would accomplish something big in some of these relationships, not all of them, it was almost like they would get depressed or sad and say, "Oh," and then make it about what they're lacking, what they don't have, and wanting to put their intention back on them. I remember I got an email for a year.

• 13:53Lewis Howes?

  I was training to become, to make the USA national team. It was a dream of mine, to go to the Olympics and make the USA national team for a sport called team handball. It's a big sport in Europe, not that big in USA. I remember getting an email, and literally almost in tears, that I was selected for the USA team. And it was just like a dream for a couple of years of a journey. This was ten years ago. And I remember I showed it to my girlfriend at the time, I go, "I just got called up on the national team." And I'm like, getting kind of emotional, just chills now, back in that moment. And she didn't congratulate me. She just kinda went back into, God, I wish I was doing what I wanted to do. And I wish I was this. And I was just like, whoa.

• 14:33Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Bingo. Right there.

• 14:34Lewis Howes?

  Just, okay, well, yeah, let me come back and help you. I kinda put my attention back on like, you know, you're gonna get these things going and, you know, I'm here for you. But it's like this diminishing, I had this happen at one of my big events one time. I host this annual event called the Summit of Greatness. And a relationship at the time made it all about them at the event. That I wasn't there for them because the attention was on me and people were coming up to me and I was like, this is something I've been working all year to host. And then I said, you know what, let me pause on my event for two hours to give the attention to this person. And I, and I was always trying to see the masterpiece. But it's like, I don't know. I'm like, you're having so many realizations for me.

• 15:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right. Yeah. I mean, but that's the idea that that ego, and it's interesting. Not everyone who's not capable of this sort of Michelangelo phenomenon in a relationship is a narcissist by any stretch. They may just have more of the low grade insecurity that so many people are plagued by, right? So all insecurity doesn't mean narcissism, right? Insecurity paired with all this entitlement and lack of empathy and all of that is the problem. And so it's so unfortunate because it is there then you again, it's talking about self-actualization for the individual. I think there can even be actualization in relationships where two people like, they really see, they see the greatness in each other. It can't just be you the only one seeing the masterpiece. They have to see the masterpiece in you.

• 15:53Lewis Howes?

  Well, because it's just draining.

• 15:55Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 15:55Lewis Howes?

  If it's just one person, right?

• 15:57Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's also a mirror that's not reflecting back at you.

• 15:59Lewis Howes?

  Ah, so what I'm hearing you say, the ultimate experiment in a relationship is when both parties are seeing the masterpiece in each other and are supportive of each other. And when one is succeeding, a person I'm with right now, she's incredible. She's just a walking success. Everything she does is just successful. I'm so happy for her. I want her to succeed. I'm like, this is amazing. Let's celebrate you.

• 16:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And she's happy for you.

• 16:26Lewis Howes?

  She's happy for me.

• 16:27Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Bingo. That's, it has to be a two-way street.

• 16:29Lewis Howes?

  She admires the work I'm doing. She admires the mission we're on to help people. And she's like, what can I do to support you? It feels interesting. I mean, it feels beautiful.

• 16:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It is beautiful. I mean, and that's the key, though, because that ability to sort of co, like, again, to have that, that, um, that co-located growth, that Michelangelo, if you will. You're, in essence, you're, you're realizing the statue from the raw piece of marble every day, and you're both sculpting that for each other. But that's, again, no narcissistic relationship is like that. And with a narcissistic relationship, it's really the them show. Like, everyone is just sort of in the audience, watching them and celebrating them. They can, so they can be the only great one in a relationship.

• 17:11Lewis Howes?

  Really? Is it possible that two narcissists would be in a relationship together?

• 17:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I actually love when that happens, where they kind of get some out of the water supply for everybody else.

• 17:20Lewis Howes?

  Because they're both miserable and each other, they're like perfect for each other.

• 17:23Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Here's what it is. They're very volatile relationships. They're very superficial relationships. A lot of people who are power couples, that's sometimes what you're seeing, like this kind of, they're all about the, they're only about the aspiration. They're not about the empathy. But in any relationship of two narcissists, as soon as somebody doesn't stay in their lane. So let's say, one classical trope of two narcissists in a relationship. Very, one partner, very wealthy, very powerful, very successful. The other one, very beautiful, looks good, goes places with this one, looks good with them. It all looks good together, right?

• 17:58Lewis Howes?

  They compliment each other.

• 17:58Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Ish. Compliment's a strong word. The first time, this one, though, might look someplace else, because this one's a narcissist person, this person, the powerful one, is narcissistic. Maybe notice someone else, this person's gonna blow up. Because they're, they're doing their beautiful thing full-time. And they're like, how can someone be more beautiful than me?

• 18:16Lewis Howes?

  If you're not looking at me obsessive, then you're not getting all the attention.

• 18:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Lots of jealousy, lots of volatility, lots of me, me, me, lots of egocentricity, lots of, on social media, it's like, I'm so blessed, hashtag, love my person, hashtag, best relationship ever. I mean, I laugh when I see this, I'm like, ooh, yeah, there we go. You know, another narcissist, super narcissistic relationship, where it's all about advertising the relationship. But it's very superficial, very volatile, no empathy. There's no depth to the intimacy. It's almost transactional, that that's what happens when two narcissists get together. I honestly would be fine with all the narcissists pairing up like Noah's Ark, as long as none of them have kids. Because that's a real, that's a real number on the kids.

• 18:59Lewis Howes?

  You're a mess. You're traumatized.

• 19:01Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's a really empty way to grow up. Those kids that grow up either, they either become incredibly anxious as adults or they become narcissistic as adults. It's not a good, it's not a good look.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  I don't know if I'm inspired by this conversation or depressed.

• 19:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah.

• 19:13Lewis Howes?

  How many, what's the percentage? How many, uh, what's the percentage of people in the world who are narcissists? Do we have that even?

• 19:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Okay, so here's, here's where it gets interesting. So let's, let's start with something we haven't talked about yet. So like, give me a way to talk about this. A lot of people use the word narcissistic, or the term narcissistic personality disorder. I actually think it's phenomenal that you haven't been using it because it's a mistake to use that languaging and I'll tell you why.

• 19:37Lewis Howes?

  Narcissistic personality disorder.

• 19:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Okay.

• 19:40Lewis Howes?

  NPD.

• 19:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So lots of people out there will say, oh, I'm in this relationship or I've got this boss and they have narcissistic personality disorder. I'm always like, slow down sister, okay? Because narcissistic personality disorder, like all diagnoses, require a full workup, a lengthy clinical interview. It even takes me, I'm gonna be honest with you, if I have a client in my office, it usually takes me four to six sessions to be confident that that's what I'm dealing with, with a disorder.

• 20:05Lewis Howes?

  Cause you could have narcissistic personality traits.

• 20:08Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct.

• 20:08Lewis Howes?

  And it's different than a disorder.

• 20:09Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And it gets into the weeds in terms of diagnostic stuff you don't want to.

• 20:12Lewis Howes?

  It could be like, more like, when I'm triggered, I have narcissistic traits as opposed to...

• 20:18Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's more complex than that because it's that, in order to give someone a diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the DSM, in order to give someone a diagnosis, that person who's showing the symptoms has to either be uncomfortable themselves, like we call it subjective distress, so like depressed people are like, they're like, I'm miserable, I can't, I'm miserable, I'm sad all the time, I can't get out of bed, that's subjective distress. Or they have to have something called social and occupational impairment, meaning that the symptoms are getting in the way of their lives in a way that they're aware of, right? It's causing problems for them. Where this gets dicey with narcissistic personality...

• 21:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Is that, first of all, a lot of narcissists are on top of the world. They think their lives are great.

• 21:05Lewis Howes?

  Nothing's wrong with them.

• 21:05Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They walk around saying, "I'm the one, I'm the guy, I'm number one, I'm the best, look how great I am."

• 21:11Lewis Howes?

  I've got money, I've got success, I've got the girl, whatever it is, it's working for me.

• 21:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So, everything's working for them. So that's no subjective distress.

• 21:17Lewis Howes?

  Nothing's wrong with me.

• 21:18Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Social and occupational impairment. Now, in some cases, they may be having trouble at work, and then, yeah, sure, they'll meet that criterion. But for a lot of folks just walking around in the street, they're making bank at work. They got a partner and a side piece, like, everything's working out for them. So they don't even think they're having that impairment. But what they're doing is they're blowing up other people's lives.

• 21:40Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  We, as therapists, cannot issue a diagnosis of social... We can't say that they have social and occupational impairment because someone else is bothered by them. Makes sense?

• 21:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It has to be that the person is saying, "I'm not going to work on time," or "I got a DUI." Those are examples of social and occupational impairment, or behavioral impairment. I personally think they need to get rid of the diagnosis. I think it's worth nothing. It's a diagnosis with no treatment. So why would you have a disease that you can't treat? There's no point to that. So, let's... It's okay. So now, let's go to the numbers. Because the epidemiological studies are studies that tell us the number of people, or the percentage of people who have a given mental illness, a given disorder.

• 22:25Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 22:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So, the epidemiology statistics on narcissistic personality disorder put the rate somewhere between 1 and 6%, okay?

• 22:34Lewis Howes?

  Those people who are diagnosed with a disorder.

• 22:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Okay, so they've gone into research studies.

• 22:38Lewis Howes?

  But most people aren't diagnosed because they would never come in and do these sessions and...

• 22:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So, the million-dollar question.

• 22:45Lewis Howes?

  How many do you think it is?

• 22:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  This is my number. This is the Dr. Ramani number, okay? I'm going with...

• 22:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Twenty to twenty-five percent.

• 22:55Lewis Howes?

  Oh, of the world? Or like US or?

• 22:58Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  The world. One in five to one in four.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  You think it's narcissistic?

• 23:01Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  One in five is probably, and I'm saying adults. Let's take the kids out, okay? So eighteen and above, twenty percent. That would make it one in five. And I would tell you in a major metro like LA, I'm going to twenty-five percent. I think that just the pressures of the city, especially New York, LA. LA being an entertainment city. The nature that sort of the, it's a company town. And the business of the town is very superficial, very validation seeking. So I'd say twenty-five percent here. So that's one in five. So buddy, if you know five people, one of them's narcissistic.

• 23:32Lewis Howes?

  When do you know someone is not a narcissist? What are the qualities that they possess? The real qualities?

• 23:38Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's empathy, kindness, respect, flexibility, self-awareness. The capacity to reflect on their impact on other people. Emotional regulation, managing, this is more of the emotional regulation. Like managing negative states like frustration and disappointment. Genuine curiosity about others. Setting goals from an internal space rather than what they think the world expects of them.

• 24:07Lewis Howes?

  That's a beautiful one, yeah.

• 24:08Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Having a strong sense of identity, a sense of who they are. Having a solid sense of values. Conscientiousness, agreeableness. These are the things that make a person not narcissistic.

• 24:24Lewis Howes?

  It's nice to be around those type of people.

• 24:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Oh, they're so good. And I feel blessed. I have a fair number of those in my life.

• 24:30Lewis Howes?

  I thought I got any, yeah.

• 24:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But I'm very careful. Like I curate my world the way some people curate their closets. Like I don't, and I've made them as, as recently as this year, I've let more than a few in. So it happens.

• 24:40Lewis Howes?

  You let narcissistic friends in?

• 24:42Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah. I'm getting, you know, and I got to tell you, it just means that people who've been through what's called narcissistic abuse or all the negative psychological impacts of being in a narcissistic relationship. One thing I work with people on is just narrowing their social world. Like it's unfortunately a one in five. What are the odds, right? They're pretty darn good. You date five people, one of them.

• 25:07Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And depending on what swimming pool you're pulling these people out of, it could be one in three.

• 25:10Lewis Howes?

  So even you, you've attracted people in your life.

• 25:13Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Hundred percent. And I know what my vulnerabilities are. I'm very aware of it. My, my personal vulnerabilities are things like a, I devalue myself. I feel like I'm not enough.

• 25:24Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 25:24Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I pity people kind of easily. And so narcissists actually are pitiful people. And that pity can sometimes drive me to say, maybe I should try harder. So at this point in my life, I'm closed off in a way that actually sometimes makes me feel guilty. And I'm like, yeah, if that's, if that's the price of poker, I'm good. Like I don't, I, I've been through too mu- too many times at this rodeo that I don't want to do it. So it's definitely, my own lack of valuing of myself is what's made me vulnerable to narcissism. If I boiled it down to one simple thing is that I feel like I'm not good enough.

• 25:58Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 25:59Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Because I feel like I'm not good enough, I let those kinds of people in. So what I've found unfortunately is that it's just better off to close the gates. And

• 26:08Lewis Howes?

  And not let anyone in?

• 26:09Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Not let anyone in. Unfortunately, yeah, that's kind of the downstream effect.

• 26:12Lewis Howes?

  Or, I mean, would you say the greatest defense against attracting narcissism is to fully love yourself?

• 26:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's to fully love yourself, to be deeply authentic. I consider myself authentic-ish, authentic adjacent. But I know I've got a ways to go because I still struggle with the monkey on my back of feeling like I'm, I'm not enough, kind of thing.

• 26:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 26:32Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah. And I know that. And that's my work on my, in my own therapy on that consistently. And, but it's a, I know where my barriers are. So anything that pings that, it's, it's great. It's interesting. I've got, my staff is fantastic. I mean, and they're much younger than me. This is what's so remarkable about it. They actually act like guard dogs.

• 26:53Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 26:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They're like, we feel like one's coming, no. And I'll be like, I kind of feel bad for them. Like, good for you. Go feel bad in another room. We're not letting them in. So they're, they're, I mean, they're, these two are gangster. I mean, they're the two most amazing young women. Yeah.

• 27:07Lewis Howes?

  What's the key to learning how to love ourselves fully? So that we don't, so that when we see someone coming in, we just say, no, we're okay. We don't need to let you into our life.

• 27:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So let's go back to the Carl Rogers, the humanist I was talking about before. It's to lift the conditions of worth from our lives, that we are lovable and cherishable simply because we are. I mean, and we could get totally into a different conversation about, we're all made of energy. Who judges energy, right? Like, you know, we're all lovable because we're the stuff of life, you know, where, and that makes us beautiful and lovable. And so it's

• 27:41Lewis Howes?

  Who said this?

• 27:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Carl Rogers talks about conditions of worth. Dr. Ramani says, and many others I do believe say, we're energy. Like, who judges energy? It's like judging the sun. I guess we do, like, we wear sunscreen.

• 27:53Lewis Howes?

  You're right, right, right.

• 27:54Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  But you know what I mean? Like, it's a, these conditions of worth, like, whatever people say to themselves, I'm not attractive enough, I'm not smart enough, I'm not rich enough, I'm not accomplished enough, I'm not this enough, I'm not that enough, that those conditions of worth, if I'm, I would be lovable if. As soon as you put love and if in the same sentence, you're screwed.

• 28:15Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 28:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So it's very much like dropping all that and saying, you're lovable because you are. Everyone is lovable. Everyone is cherishable, all of us, not because somebody's more beautiful, or somebody's more famous, or somebody's more attractive, it's not, or, or rich, or something like that. But it's hard because we're given the message of, you're better if you look this way, act this way, do this way, live here, drive this. It's, it's a lot to break out of. And so I think that, and those narratives even go deeper than materialism. It's almost like as a kid, many kids were, were taught, were, they almost felt like, you grow up with a parent who's not attentive in any way, or not interested of, well, I'm not, they're not paying attention because I'm not interesting, I'm not enough.

• 29:01Lewis Howes?

  And I get attention when I excel in something that they like, and so let me do more of that to get more attention.

• 29:07Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Exactly.

• 29:07Lewis Howes?

  And if I lose at that, then they're not gonna love me.

• 29:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's exactly right. So it all becomes like, people think like, if I do these things, then I can be loved, rather than you're just lovable. And so that's the, that's where people, most people lose the plot. And, and I think the other piece, those people don't understand narcissism. I think that a lot of people say, oh, come on, everyone can change or some uh, just they, I, I just gotta get to know them better or they don't really mean that. We enable it, we justify it, but if people really got to learn like, no, that's unacceptable. That tantrum they just threw, not okay. That, that, that entitled behavior, not okay. I, and honestly get to the point where I don't care why they're behaving like this. They're behaving like this.

• 29:52Lewis Howes?

  So how do you create boundaries with a narcissist?

• 29:55Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's not easy. I mean, I think that the narcissistic people, the, the key with a narcissistic person is to detect it early. Set boundaries early because then they get disinterested and they walk away. You're not an easy mark anymore, right? So charm and charisma come walking in the door. I'm, I think I'm the only person in the world who's telling people, if you meet someone charming and charismatic, run away. Like get away from them. This is dangerous.

• 30:18Lewis Howes?

  But are there some people that are charming and charismatic who aren't narcissistic?

• 30:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, but I, I'm like, I'm, I'm all about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

• 30:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So it's a, uh, because charming charismatic people, I would say then always make sure they have humility.

• 30:35Lewis Howes?

  There you go.

• 30:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  If they have the humility back.

• 30:37Lewis Howes?

  That's the unicorn. That's the unicorn. That's when you're like, they're charming and they're humble. Humble and.

• 30:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They're all, they're all that, they're incredible and they're like, listen, you know, I'm great. Can you just tell me about you a little bit, talk a little bit about you? Um, there's a.

• 30:55Lewis Howes?

  That's a keeper in your life.

• 30:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, that's a keeper or they, you can see how they're talking to other people. They're interested in other people. They're not talking down to people, maybe because let's say they're in a service position.

• 31:04Lewis Howes?

  They care.

• 31:05Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That evening, right? That they're not, and not in a smarmy like, oh, the server's my best friend. But like, they're not like.

• 31:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That, it's none of that. It's really like, oh, let me wait for the server to come along and see if I can get or whatever. They're, they're just really, they're present in a situation. They're not elitist, they're not status conscious. That, that kind of humility, you know, that they don't brag. You know that they're all that and they're not going on about how all that that they are.

• 31:32Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 31:33Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Mm hmm. They're not talking about, oh, let me tell you about my new this and my new that and this accomplishment and my, nah. They're, they're just, they're actually able to be with you, be present with you. It's rare because again, people who are that hyped up, they're hyped up from all sides. You have to be really resistant, authentic, self-actualized to not. To not drink the Kool-Aid.

• 31:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What else do we need to know about narcissists? Is there anything else you think that's important for us?

• 31:57Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I think that, um...

• 31:59Lewis Howes?

  One in five of your friends is a narcissist.

• 32:01Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So, I mean, again, if we're using this number of 20%, okay? Which I don't think is a bad number, to be honest with you. I think that just, I mean, it's a spitball number. And it's just sort of boiled up in this world. And it may be a urban myth, I don't know. It's hard to get good data on this, right? You know, it's, the assessment of narcissism is one of the hardest things in the business of measurement and psychology. Because who's gonna be honest about it, right? There's all these backdoors we try to do to figure it out. But I'd say the other things, let's talk a little bit about what happens to a person who's been in a relationship with a narcissist.

• 32:37Lewis Howes?

  Tell me, please.

• 32:37Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Because I think that we've been talking, we've seen so much focus on the narcissist. The question is, what if I've just been through this?

• 32:43Lewis Howes?

  Is there a sense of PTS that you're gonna face?

• 32:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, a lot of PTS. You'll see, it's a, there's confusion, self-doubt, a sense of powerlessness, helplessness, sometimes even hopelessness, anxiety, a lack of, not feeling motivated anymore, sort of sense of like, I can't be bothered with life, rumination, regret, something we call euphoric recall. You remember the good parts of the relationship and say, why can't we have that part again? I'm like, well, no, because that part wasn't really real.

• 33:13Lewis Howes?

  Wasn't real, it was like this explosive.

• 33:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's, people have physical symptoms, they have trouble sleeping because of the rumination. They, they might find themselves engaging in less behaviors that are involved, like self-care behaviors, we call them, like things like working out, or eating well, or even taking their medications on time. They just almost let themselves go because being in these relationships is just basically like completely being, you know, overwhelmed by them. So people aren't in good shape when they're coming out of these relationships.

• 33:42Lewis Howes?

  Because they'll start beating themselves up, how could I stay in this? What was I thinking? I'm an idiot, you know?

• 33:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Well, that's the worst part, it's the self-blame and the self-shame. Because the self-blame is, this is my fault, I'm the one who stayed, I should've known. I'm, I'm, and then, I'm a fool. And then, they, a lot of people go back. Right? So here, why? Because they think, let's talk a little bit, I want my whiteboard.

• 34:06Lewis Howes?

  Yes, we get to use the whiteboard.

• 34:07Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So here we go. So let's talk about the narcissistic relationship cycle, okay? Step one. Is something called, I'll write it down, I'll lift it up. Love bombing.

• 34:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh my, okay.

• 34:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Love bombing is that big seductive, exciting experience that happens early in a relationship. The, we have a magical connection. Let's have a picnic on the beach. Wild and crazy sex. Texting for 12 hours straight. Good morning princess, good night my darling. Let's take a vacation for our third date. I want you to meet all my friends. I'm so into you. Let's move in after a month, my lease is up. Love bombing. It's exciting, it's intoxicating, it's seductive. And what it does, it's a narcissist ground game. That's how they're able to get you to not notice all the red flags. Cause you're so focused on the 10 dozen roses on your doorstep.

• 35:03Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That you're all like, or the unreal sex you're having, or these amazing like constantly being these text messages. Or being, going to San Francisco on your fourth date, you know, and you're thinking like, okay, red, what red flags? I'm having my fairytale.

• 35:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:18Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  The minute the narcissist knows they've got you. When you kind of let down your guard, cause some people are like, this seems too good to be true. And then they're like, okay, I love you too. I, I, I'm, boom. That's the day. Something called devaluing starts.

• 35:37Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 35:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Now, devaluing is characterized by invalidation, little digs. Like, um, oh gosh, you know, my ex-girlfriend could cook. Um, or, you know, it's like the digs. It's, it's little, it's subtle. You're like, where did this go? Like where's, where's this? Because it's not feeling so good. And people in devaluing are confused as heck. They're thinking, how do I get back here? Now they start blaming themselves. Because it was this, now it's this, it must be me.

• 36:09Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, okay.

• 36:11Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Now then we go to

• 36:12Lewis Howes?

  You're going through my life right now, okay?

• 36:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  We go to something called the discard. Now, the discard is not always a breakup.

• 36:21Lewis Howes?

  Is this where like they won't speak to you for two weeks?

• 36:24Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's the silent treatment. It's the deeper level manipulation. It could be infidelity. It could be significant lying. It could be, um, even, sometimes even the other person leaves the relationship at this point. Like the not narcissistic person leaves.

• 36:41Lewis Howes?

  Like, "I'm out."

• 36:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  "I'm out. I can't do this." And then comes a phase.

• 36:45Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 36:45Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Called hoovering. Hoovering is when the narcissist tries to suck you back in. They don't like to lose. And in the majority of cases, once after the discard, you're gone.

• 36:59Lewis Howes?

  Try to woo you back.

• 36:59Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Try to woo you back. Love bombing, part two. Now, love bombing, part two is never as heavy as love bombing, part one. It's always love bombing light the second time around. But it'll be like, "Baby..."

• 37:09Lewis Howes?

  Seductive.

• 37:09Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  "Baby, what was I thinking? You're the best thing that ever happened to me." And this could be because they cheated on you.

• 37:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 37:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And they say things like, "You're so much better." And you know what? People fall for that because that's that triangulation dynamic. That idea, very edible, that you're the favored child. That you're the favored one. And the hoovering is...

• 37:29Lewis Howes?

  Choosing you.

• 37:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Then in the part of the hoovering is a dynamic called... You're gonna love this one, is my guess, after what, the way you've been putting it. Future faking.

• 37:41Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 37:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Future faking is, "No, as soon as this deadline is done, we're going to." "Or I'm gonna get therapy." "Or, I know, let's just put it off for another six months. For sure, I'm gonna do it then." They keep moving the goalposts. And future faking is what keeps people in the game. Because they're like, they're promising the thing you want. "Six months. We're gonna have kids. We're gonna have kids." Yeah, for sure. You know, like, "I just need to get my career established." And now you're 50 and you don't have kids. Or, "We're gonna, you know, we're gonna definitely move closer to your parents. I know we had talked about moving back there. And I know you said there were some better opportunities for you. You're just, you're waiting." Or, "I'm gonna get into therapy. I'm gonna work on these anger issues." And then if you push it... God, you know what? You're really impatient.

• 38:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You're like, you are not a nice person.

• 38:27Lewis Howes?

  Interesting when I'm going through my life and I need time and yeah.

• 38:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's the cycle of every narcissistic relationship. Not everybody gets hoovered, okay? Sometimes the narcissist moves into something else and then they they're done. And so people sometimes feel bad if they're not hoovered. They're like, what's wrong with me? It doesn't always happen and consider yourself lucky. I always say the lucky are not hoovered. Because then it goes back to it goes the cycle goes again and again and again.

• 38:51Lewis Howes?

  So what is hoovering again?

• 38:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Hoovering is when they try to woo you back in, suck you back in.

• 38:55Lewis Howes?

  They bring you back in.

• 38:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And they'll do that if, let's say, they're the one who left you, okay? And you finally start getting your life in order. And maybe you're dating someone else and they find out that's when they want you back. They just want to mess your stuff up. Or you're in a good place, like you got a job you want. They don't want you happy. They don't like losing. And they don't like the idea of anyone else winning. It's all about domination.

• 39:18Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 39:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So I tell people like, maybe you could get a good, a good, a good trip to San Francisco and a couple of flowers and get out.

• 39:26Lewis Howes?

  And then get out, yeah.

• 39:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Like before you get in too deep.

• 39:28Lewis Howes?

  But if that happens where they'll give you like a month or six weeks or two months of love bombing on you. And then you're like, you know what?

• 39:34Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They're gonna get mad.

• 39:35Lewis Howes?

  I'm not in the right place. This isn't for me, like it's not you, it's me, I'm not ready. They're gonna get mad.

• 39:39Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They're gonna get mad.

• 39:40Lewis Howes?

  So either way, once you get in, once you go on the first weekend love bomb extravaganza, you're

• 39:45Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You're kind of sunk. Yeah, cuz and they're, they actually, yeah, they wanna get out.

• 39:49Lewis Howes?

  You gotta get out the first weekend.

• 39:50Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You wanna get out. I, listen, here's an interesting tell on narcissistic people. And it's, it applies more in LA than in a place like New York. They, um, they, they drive really badly. They drive dangerously. They cut people off and they come up on their bumpers and they cut people off on the freeway. And that's actually been documented in research.

• 40:09Lewis Howes?

  So narcissist is a bad driver?

• 40:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Bad driver. Dangerous driver, not bad, not like dumb driver. Fast, cut people off, Hong Kong, road crazy driver.

• 40:17Lewis Howes?

  Anything else we should talk about?

• 40:19Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Last thing.

• 40:19Lewis Howes?

  Yes, give it to me.

• 40:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Gaslighting.

• 40:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh, I wanted to ask that. I had a, I had a note here.

• 40:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Gaslighting's the word of our time. And if nothing else, I want, your, your podcast is so amazing that I want to make sure that people get things right here.

• 40:29Lewis Howes?

  So what is gaslighting?

• 40:30Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Gaslighting is the denial of a person's reality.

• 40:37Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And the taking apart of another person so that they have completely not only given up on their reality, they've given up on themselves. So let me say that in a little bit more of a clear way. Gaslighting is a grooming process. It's not a one-off, right? So let's say a day like today. We'd set up our shoot and everything. And I would say, and we had our time, we were gonna meet the date. And I said, "You never said we were meeting on that date." And you'd be like, "What?" And then you'd go back to your email and say, "No, it's right there," right? But for a minute, you might have doubted yourself. I don't have that much power to gaslight you because we don't really know each other. Maybe you trust me a little, but it would be enough to throw you off for a minute,

• 41:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  say, "Did I not send that email right?" And you catch yourself, okay? The reason it's called a grooming process is it happens over and over again. "I never said that. I never did that. You're being too sensitive. Stop making such a big deal about that. You really aren't committed to this relationship." And they keep saying things to you that are not your reality. So what do people do when they're gaslighted initially? They defend themselves. "No, no, no. You did. You really did. Like, you said that." Or, "I'm not being too sensitive." And now you're getting more and more worked up, right? And then, you know, they'll say things to you like, "Oh, yikes. Somebody is a little bit crazy." Like, "Have you seen a therapist?" So now what are they doing?

• 42:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Not only they doubted your reality and you're a little off balance, then boom, they close it by saying, "There's something wrong with you." And you start believing it.

• 42:13Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow.

• 42:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Many people are gaslighted. Will start wondering, "Maybe I'm the narcissist. Maybe I have a mental illness. Maybe I need to get help. There's something wrong with me." And at that point, the gaslighter fully controls this person.

• 42:27Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 42:28Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's the process. And so, but initially, the person who's being gaslighted has some level of trust in the gaslighter. Maybe they're in a new relationship together. Maybe this is a family member. Maybe it's a boss or a respected colleague. You gotta have a little of that from the jump. There has to be some skin in the game for someone to be able to gaslight someone. Then they're groomed. Now, let's say the first time someone gaslights you, say, uh, no, here's the email. This is the time you said we're meeting, and don't ever do that to me again. The gaslighter's probably gonna move on to a new target.

• 42:59Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, they'll stop with you.

• 43:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, cuz, yeah, so they'll say like, uh, this is not a fertile target. I'm gonna move on to another one, right? But, so, early on, when a person, or a person says you're being too sensitive, say, no, that's my emotion. Don't you dare play judge and jury on my emotions. I'm sad right now. I'm gonna stick with that. That's what I'm talking about.

• 43:19Lewis Howes?

  That's a good one.

• 43:20Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right? So, and then the gaslighter will probably lose interest, and, but they'll always get their last dig in. They'll say, she's just a really difficult person. So they'll still have to get their parting shot and say, aye, I'll wear that as a badge of honor. But you, but you, look how solid you have to be in yourself and understand gaslighting. In fact, I'm doing a gaslighting seminar on Saturday, literally, three hours, all gaslighting. Because that's how much people are confused by this. It happens at work, it happens in families, it happens in intimate relationships. It happens from the world at large. Like, no, well, every, everyone can, every, the playing field's equal. And then the people are like, it can't be equal, cuz like, it could, ah, that's gaslighting.

• 44:01Lewis Howes?

  So the first time you feel like someone's gaslighting you, what should you say? Without them saying, cuz I feel like this happened to me in a previous relationship where, I'd be like, no, I never said that. And then it was like, they'd bring up three other things that were unrelated to try to confuse. And be like, well, you, this, this, this, this, and I'd be like, just focus on the one thing we're talking about. And so I have to go to, you know, go around all these other things and talk about them, where I forget what we were talking about in the first place.

• 44:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That gaslighting. That, all that deflection. It's very exhausting.

• 44:29Lewis Howes?

  It's like, let's just focus on this thing.

• 44:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  So, a great example, a gaslighting thing that people will do is, they will say something like, um, in a relationship, and, you know, I'm really uncomfortable with how much time you've been spending with that person, and there's been a lot of communication between the two of you, like, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good to me. This feels shady. It feels like a boundary violation. Like, this isn't okay. They'll hit back with... Let's go back to when you were in college and you're like, wait. And then you know what I tell people? Have a whiteboard, say, okay, I'm gonna table that. Let's, we'll get to that. Let's write that down. I don't want us to not talk about it.

• 45:11Lewis Howes?

  But let's focus on this. So keep going back to the original thing.

• 45:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Go back to the original issue.

• 45:14Lewis Howes?

  Until they have a discussion and resolve.

• 45:17Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They'll get mad.

• 45:18Lewis Howes?

  And they won't discuss. So how do you find resolve?

• 45:22Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  You don't find resolve.

• 45:23Lewis Howes?

  And these relationships?

• 45:24Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  There's no resolve. There is no closure. And that's the radical acceptance.

• 45:27Lewis Howes?

  So you've just got to accept this person isn't going to have these conversations. This person's not going to have rationality for certain things. It's gonna be their way or the highway.

• 45:38Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct.

• 45:38Lewis Howes?

  And they won't be flexible.

• 45:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Nope.

• 45:40Lewis Howes?

  And you've either gotta live with it and accept it for a certain period of time, or you can choose to move on.

• 45:45Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right.

• 45:45Lewis Howes?

  But being in an argument is only gonna make your life worse.

• 45:48Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct. And you might say, like, that seems lonely, yeah. And so I have worked with people who've stayed in long-term narcissistic relationships, who have done everything from get very involved in like a religious community, church community, something like that, to do a lot of things with their friends, really build friendships.

• 46:06Lewis Howes?

  Unless the narcissist tries to control them hanging out with their friends.

• 46:08Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  If you have a controlling narcissist, none of this will work. Like malignant narcissists, it won't work. But if you can build out friendships, if you can build out collegial relationships, if you're working, church community. Some people do this in online communities if they're not able to easily get out of the house and have friendships that way. Develop hobbies. They care deeply about garden, building something, whatever their groove is, music, something like that. I've known people that have lovers, you know, to say like, I haven't, my body hasn't been touched in 15 years. And so they'll do that and they'll say, I felt a little guilty, but they're having sex with other people. I haven't been touched. And they're like, you know, I know I'm not, it's kind of like, I know I'm not very attractive, but they found, everyone's got someone. Everyone finds someone and they find their someone. And so I've heard it all. I've heard people do all kinds of things.

• 46:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Finding their way, finding their way to get that support on the, when they're not being, when they have to stay. Because that's where you get un-gaslighted, right? A person saying, "No, that's not, that's not okay." Or, "This person's conduct isn't okay." But I think where most people destroy themselves is they're like a moth to flame. They're like, "I can fix this." And I'm telling you here, you can't.

• 47:15Lewis Howes?

  Stop trying to fix it.

• 47:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Stop trying to fix it. It's just not gonna work.

• 47:18Lewis Howes?

  That was probably my challenge, is I wanted to fix.

• 47:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Which, again, your athletic background, it makes sense. I mean, there are people who have had a track record of being able to get things done. They're the ones who are very vulnerable to staying in these relationships too long.

• 47:32Lewis Howes?

  I think I was, I think I was attracted to it and then wanted to stay in it.

• 47:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's attractive.

• 47:36Lewis Howes?

  And then I was just like, it just becomes exhausting when it's a, when it's a full energy on someone else opposed to a, a combination of, "Let's work together on a shared vision towards our relationship, towards life," not

• 47:50Lewis Howes?

  all the energy in one place.

• 47:52Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Correct, you're correct. And it's, it's very, it is very draining. And I think a lot of people do feel like, you know, a good relationship is me doing everything they ask or catering to them. No.

• 48:03Lewis Howes?

  Being unselfish all the time.

• 48:04Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, being unselfish all, no, it's about give and take. I'm not saying transactional give and take. It's that you feel supported enough that when they say, "Hey, do you mind going to this, this dinner for work?" And you're like, "Of course I'll go to that dinner for work." Because you care about them, and even if you both think it's ridiculous, you're kinda giggling at each other or, you know, having fun with it. It's that you understand that there's a give and take, and you give graciously. And the other person gives graciously. This isn't just about, you know, grinding your teeth and, you know, being irritated you have to go, but really that, that giving with grace. But at the, I'll be frank with you, it really comes down, though, to finding somebody who has a good personality. That it's not, and I keep using the word agreeableness, right?

• 48:45Lewis Howes?

  Being agreeable.

• 48:46Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Being agreeable. And that's actually a personality style.

• 48:48Lewis Howes?

  How do you know when someone's agreeable?

• 48:50Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  All those things I talk about, flexibility and warmth and kindness.

• 48:53Lewis Howes?

  Just the times, seeing it over time, seeing their words, their actions.

• 48:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Agreeable men make less money.

• 48:58Lewis Howes?

  Agreeable men make less money.

• 49:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  The research has shown that pretty clearly, bless their hearts. And so for everyone out there who wants somebody who's got the money and the stuff, the probability that that person's gonna be agreeable is a lot lower.

• 49:11Lewis Howes?

  You just need to find a unicorn. Someone who's agreeable and who has money.

• 49:14Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I have not.

• 49:15Lewis Howes?

  You've never seen that?

• 49:16Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I've very, I, I know, yes, I have. I can think of one person off the top of my head.

• 49:20Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 49:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Billionaire. Most agreeable man in the world. Sweet, sweetest.

• 49:26Lewis Howes?

  Kind, humble.

• 49:26Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Married to a raging narcissist.

• 49:31Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  He's a darling.

• 49:34Lewis Howes?

  Oh man, but just gets walked all over in his relationships.

• 49:36Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Oh my god, beyond. Walked all over.

• 49:38Lewis Howes?

  But in his business, he can go and have.

• 49:40Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Killed it.

• 49:41Lewis Howes?

  He can be assertive and yeah.

• 49:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I've met, I've met a few agreeable, um, rich folks. I, I mean, really, and we're not just rich, like really good at what they do. They, unicorns, like they, they definitely, um. But what was interesting, you know, with some of the, a couple of these folks, agreeable, very wealthy. At the end of their career, they got taken down. They got like people in the company, they, they were a soft target.

• 50:06Lewis Howes?

  They were the vulnerable target.

• 50:07Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  They were the vulnerable target. They built the company.

• 50:09Lewis Howes?

  And they're gonna, we're gonna take the equity from them, or they're gonna be the one to blame.

• 50:13Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, they did. They got a group of, they got a voting block. Well, they were, no, they weren't willing to be disagreeable.

• 50:19Lewis Howes?

  They just wanted to keep the peace at all costs.

• 50:21Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And because they were, they were collaborative people. They actually thought they were bringing up the next generation.

• 50:26Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting because, man, over the last decade, I really started doing a lot of healing work when I turned 30. I was, I've talked about this many times on my show, um, that I was sexually abused when I was five by a man that I didn't know. And, um, it definitely shaped a part of me for my life until I started to, uh, heal that, that process and really go through a healing journey of, you know, the shame that I felt for so long, the guilt, the insecurity, the not feeling enough, or not feeling lovable, all these different things. And to kind of reshaping the story, the narrative. And finding the, uh, the value in the process and in the, the pain, I guess.

• 51:08Lewis Howes?

  And really finding the value from 25 years of holding it in. And it's channeling it, saying, how can I be of service at a greater level? How can I use this to support other men who have gone through sexual abuse? And that's why I wrote the book, The Masked Man, Masked Man, yeah, one in six men have been sexually abused, one in four women, obviously. And, uh, what I always tell people is that, you know, men just don't talk about it, you know, and they hold it in and then they. Be become angry or reactive or rageful or you know dismissive or whatever it is they have the put a mask on and you know that shame causes that mask at least it did for me and a lot of men that I've talked to so for for many years I had to learn how to

• 51:51Lewis Howes?

  kind of unwind and heal that process and and it's it's been a beautiful journey of healing where I can because I used to be very competitive it was like I had to win at all costs and now I'm like well that didn't work for me you know it it got me results but it left me feeling empty and alone and unfulfilled and I didn't have peace because I always needed to win then I started transitioning and when I hit thirty to I just want to collaborate and I just want to support others and work together and it feels a lot more peaceful inside and fulfilling.

• 52:23Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  What do you think the function was of trying to win?

• 52:26Lewis Howes?

  Oh to get love be accepted to get love and be accepted.

• 52:29Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I was gonna say maybe to be safe.

• 52:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah to get love to be accepted to feel like I was yeah to fit in you know because I didn't feel like I had any friends growing up so it was like well if I win people recognize me and they like me.

• 52:41Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right, right.

• 52:42Lewis Howes?

  And I'm desirable.

• 52:43Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right.

• 52:44Lewis Howes?

  If I lose and who wants to be you know around me.

• 52:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah and then the shame gets activated but it's also safety and that's why that idea if I win I'm safe.

• 52:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:53Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  That's the ultimate get for any human being to be safe.

• 52:55Lewis Howes?

  I'm not alone.

• 52:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I'm not alone if I if I'm accepted I'm safe if I'm loved I'm safe.

• 52:59Lewis Howes?

  And it's funny when you when I moved into and Jay Shetty talks about this a lot when I talk with Jay about this he's like just being in collaboration is the key and I was like I know that's what I feel like in the last eight years because you're safe when you're still collaborative you're still with people you're helping each other accelerate together.

• 53:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Right but there's a fear there's a fear and I think one of the big impediments to collaboration is the sense that others will leave you behind so if you become an island unto yourself you feel safer right so I think that's often a blockade and then

• 53:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah I'm at the top of the mountain and everyone else is down.

• 53:30Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yes if they leave you it's not even the it's not the collaboration that's the issue it's the potential for abandonment.

• 53:36Lewis Howes?

  Interesting like if I'm if I'm in this business like the billionaire friend I'm at the top but then I collaborate with others but then they take it all and they leave me behind.

• 53:45Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Well they they they took it all away I mean this was somebody and that that man that agreeable billionaire was collaborative from the day one of his career.

• 53:53Lewis Howes?

  So how do you stay collaborative? And live in abundance and want others to win around you, but also not get taken advantage of.

• 54:00Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  It's not easy. It's with the one in five number I'm giving you, it's not easy. I mean, it is, you know, what is the best offense is a good defense? You better have a good defense.

• 54:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, get your contracts in order.

• 54:12Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Get your contracts in order, document. Don't put your head in the sand. I mean, a lot, the reason narcissism has proliferated the way it has is enabling. People keep giving it a free pass. Oh, come on now, you know, don't hate the player, hate the game. It's not how that works, right?

• 54:26Lewis Howes?

  It's a player.

• 54:27Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  And yeah, so it's a player. Yeah, no. So like it's, it's a, we have all this kind of culture around. And in some ways, people like want to see, they, the best example I can give is that people hate the idea. When we see a magician do a trick, we know they didn't do magic. We know they had something up their sleeve, but we want to believe it's magic because that makes the world seem more interesting. With narcissists, we want to believe in the magic.

• 54:55Lewis Howes?

  Want to believe they're.

• 54:56Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  We want to believe that they're going to be, we want to believe that this charismatic person doesn't really, is real. That they're, that someone this larger than life is larger than life. Rather than an ordinary person who, who's just has ordinary things and could fall and, you know, and we want superheroes. We want, that's why we've always written myths as a species. But the myths should remain stories, not the person who's trying to scream at you from the other cubicle.

• 55:21Lewis Howes?

  I'm ready to bet. You've got some great books.

• 55:25Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Thank you.

• 55:26Lewis Howes?

  Don't You Know Who I Am, How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility. And you've also got another book called, Should I Stay or Should I Go? I'm just laughing because of all my experiences in my life. Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist. It just feels like the best way to, you know, set yourself up for success is don't commit to being in a relationship with one in the first place. Take it slow, learn the person, learn as long as you can, spot the red flags. You talk a lot about this in these books. You talk about this on your YouTube channel, which is amazing. I was watching some of the videos. Very inspiring.

• 56:10Lewis Howes?

  So if you want to make sure you learn this, I would do not get committed until you learn the person you're with.

• 56:15Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Learn the person, take it slow, and don't justify bad behavior. When you witness bad behavior, unfortunately, it's like, you know, if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, you know, scorpions sting. There are no such things as scorpions that hug. And so, you know, once you see a scorpion, you just got, it's gonna sting you. So walk the other way. And once it stings you once, don't pick it up again.

• 56:37Lewis Howes?

  How else can we be supportive of you right now? Besides checking out your website, YouTube, social media, the books? You do workshops now?

• 56:45Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  I do workshops. If you go to my Instagram, follow me on Instagram. We often put, you know, we put the, let people know what's coming up then. We're gonna have a healing program and recovery program for people who've been through narcissistic relationships. That's coming up next year. Yeah, just follow me on YouTube. We're always making our announcements there. Every day we have a new video coming out. So you will be 365 days wiser if you just keep watching, yeah.

• 57:08Lewis Howes?

  Dr. Ramani everywhere, right?

• 57:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Yeah, Dr. Ramani everywhere.

• 57:11Lewis Howes?

  Everywhere, there we go, okay, cool.

• 57:14Lewis Howes?

  Couple final questions. This one is called the three truths. That's what I ask everyone at the end of our interviews. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. It's your last day on earth, many years away. You get to live as long as you want, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, all the content you've ever created has to go with you or go somewhere else. But it's not here. We don't have access to any of your information anymore. Books, the videos, everything's gone. But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true from all your life lessons and experiences. And this is all we would have from your information. What would you say would be those three lessons or three truths?

• 57:47Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  If someone else is cruel to you, it's not your fault. You came into this world lovable and will always be lovable. Trust and honor your truth and don't let anyone ever take it away from you.

• 58:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, those are beautiful. Those are beautiful. Before I ask the final question, Dr. Ramani, I want to acknowledge you for your commitment to this information, to this message. I feel like there's a lot of people, including myself, going, I've gone through a lot of this to, who've always struggled feeling like they're wrong and they're bad and they're not good enough in these types of relationships. And so for you to commit your adult life to this, to researching, studying, teaching in the university in an academic level and now, you know, to the masses with your information, your books, your content, I really acknowledge you for the gift and also the pain that you

• 58:43Lewis Howes?

  went through in your journey to learn these things and experience it so you can help educate and teach others to hopefully heal the relationships they've been through, make sure they don't get in those relationships and have a much more peaceful life.

• 58:58Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Well, I appreciate that. Pain is a hell of a mentor.

• 59:01Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely it is. And it's going to keep coming until we learn the lesson. It's going to keep coming. My final question is, what's your definition of greatness?

• 59:10Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  My definition of greatness is humility, self-awareness, compassion, and empathy.

• 59:24Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Dr. Ramani, thank you. Appreciate it.

• 59:28Dr. Ramani Durvasula?

  Thank you.

• 59:29Lewis Howes?

  Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's show with all the important links. And also make sure to share this with a friend and subscribe over on Apple Podcasts as well. I really love hearing feedback from you guys, so share a review over on Apple and let me know what part of this episode resonated with you the most. And if no one's told you lately, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.