Heart-to-Heart Conversations: Zane Lowe's Approach to Unveiling Artists' Personal Stories EP 1452

The Summit of Greatness is back! Buy your tickets today – summitofgreatness.comZane Lowe's interviews with artists often transcend their music, delving into their personal lives and creative processes. He shares his approach to these conversations, creating a comfortable and insightful space for artists to open up and share their stories. Zane highlights the power of storytelling in fostering a deeper connection between artists and their audience. Recognized for his ability to spot potential in up-and-coming artists, Zane Lowe shares his insights on discovering emerging talent and offers advice to aspiring musicians looking to break into the industry. He emphasizes the importance of originality, authenticity, and a strong work ethic in standing out and making a lasting impact. In this episode you will learn,The power of building personal connectionsHow to create space that fosters intimate one on one connectionHow storytelling can break boundaries and connect us on a deeper levelSteps to finding your own voice and using it to inspire positive actionWhy empathy, vulnerability and understanding should be at the forefront of every relationshipFor more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1452Scooter Braun on building an entertainment empire: https://link.chtbl.com/1244-guestFreestyle rapper, Harry Mack on channeling musical creativity: https://link.chtbl.com/1321-guest Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  Calling all conscious achievers who are seeking more community and connection. I've got an invitation for you. Join me at this year's Summit of Greatness this September 7th through 9th in my hometown of Columbus, Ohio to unleash your true greatness. This is the one time a year that I gather the greatness community together in person for a powerful transformative weekend. People come from all over the world and you can expect to hear from inspiring speakers like Inky Johnson, Josprey Singh, Vanessa Van Edwards, Jen Sincero, and many more. You'll also be able to dance your heart out to live music, get your body moving with group workouts, and connect with others at our evening socials.

• 0:44Lewis Howes?

  So if you're ready to learn, heal, and grow alongside other incredible individuals in the greatness community, then you can learn more at lewishouse.com/summit2023. Make sure to grab your ticket, invite your friends, and I'll see you there.

• 1:01Zane Lowe?

  True art is when the inner voice and the outer voice meet in harmony. That's what true art is. And that would have just been singing, I mean, any form of expression. Writing. You know, when you write a piece of literature that is just like so mind blowing and moving, that's that, meaning that, that, or that, and it just blows.

• 1:18Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:42Lewis Howes?

  With all the interviews you've done, what would you say are maybe three big takeaways that you've found? Maybe not from the guest who was inspiring, but

• 1:51Zane Lowe?

  Just the process.

• 1:52Lewis Howes?

  The, the big takeaways from the last two decades of all these conversations for you, what have you learned from this experience?

• 2:01Zane Lowe?

  Well, first of all, that as much as we hold artists and people we admire who inspire us through expression of some, or performance of some, some capacity, that, that it's a very human experience for them.

• 2:17Zane Lowe?

  You know, we put people on our, put posters on our wall, wear them on our chest, sing this. In, in music, we sing their lyrics back at them at concerts. We are invested. And I think as I've moved from being only a fan to being a fan with privileges like this, doing this kind of work, that it's a very human experience, the creation of the art. And I, and I'm quite into that idea of blurring the line between, you know, deity and humanity.

• 2:49Lewis Howes?

  Right, because you meet all these big artists who are kind of godlike to a lot of their fans.

• 2:54Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, and I think we take it really far as people because we look, we're always looking for something to be inspired by, something to,

• 3:01Zane Lowe?

  give us a purpose, you know, or a reason to get up, or a reason to work harder, or do something with more emotion, or be more open, or even just to heal a heart. Sometimes it, it breaks a heart, sometimes it heals a heart, whatever. And these are very, in a lot of cases, through the art, through the lens of art, it's, it's magical, it's a very spiritual experience.

• 3:20Zane Lowe?

  And so I, I always try to preserve the magic of the music, but recognize the human that made it. So that's, that's, that's definitely one.

• 3:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Zane Lowe?

  And I think that a, a knock on from that is that, you know,

• 3:35Zane Lowe?

  I used to go into a lot of conversations with artists, with a, with a, we were talking about this before we were rolling, with this kind of idea that I needed to, to know everything before I sat down. And I think it's better to, to not think about stuff as much as feel things.

• 3:51Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 3:51Zane Lowe?

  So I, I really come into this kind of experience now. With a feeling rather than a rather than a list of questions or a roadmap. So funny. I try to take it out of the brain and put it back in the heart. Absolutely. Um, as corny as that sounds, it's sort of really where I sit and and it it just means that I'm thinking and feeling with a real sort of sense of appreciation for the art and appreciation for the person rather than just the text or the information that's been presented to me. Yeah. I listen a lot more than I used to. You didn't use to in the first, what, decade or something? Uh, I was told outright, I did, I did some work with somebody because I felt like I was getting stuck in a rut.

• 4:31Zane Lowe?

  So I went and spoke to someone um who was probably known like yourself, you know, was was had a lot of really good insight and helps people get over humps, whether it's athletes or performers or anyone who has to perform into something, it could be business, whatever. They kind of give you this sort of advice, the sense where you might be kind of ignoring the obvious next steps to grow. And um she said to me, you know, you don't, you don't listen enough. And I, that was really hard for me to hear because I wasn't listening enough.

• 5:00Zane Lowe?

  It's like right there in front of me, like I immediately want to block it out. And and she said, you know, a lot of times in conversation, people present you with something really interesting. That it's it's there to go deeper on and you either scoop past it or you try to protect them from from overexposing themselves. Really. You just need to let people be people. And so that was another thing which was really valuable for me was to really just acknowledge the conversation and um be present enough to to hear what someone is saying and have the confidence that I had the ability to to to to move in that direction with little to no preparation, that the preparation was in me because I felt where I was. Does that make sense? Why do you think you weren't listening that well? Of fear, just just fear of being caught out, not having the right question, not knowing where to go.

• 5:47Zane Lowe?

  Silence terrified me in conversation with cameras and microphones. Yeah, cuz I'd be like, wow, it looks like I'm unprepared. It was all very ego driven, I think, looking back on it.

• 5:55Lewis Howes?

  Need to look good.

• 5:56Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, I had it all around the wrong way. I was like, to me, it was almost like a performance. It's not a performance, you know. I don't even realize that now. I think at the time I was like, no, I'm just, I'm doing the work, you know. I'm as into this conversation as, as, as anyone can be. And, and then I think looking back on it, I was just, um, just kind of focused on how I was coming across. All the wrong things. And it's like, dude, just be a, be a sponge and be a conduit, you know?

• 6:22Lewis Howes?

  So what year is this when you kind of started to reflect on it and start to get that support or coaching or feedback?

• 6:29Zane Lowe?

  Well, I always think, felt like I did good work. I wouldn't have continued to create more opportunities or be given more opportunities. And this, I didn't do the good work and I, and I never watched my stuff back. So I was low on the air.

• 6:37Lewis Howes?

  I never do either, yeah.

• 6:39Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's not like a, that's not an ego thing for me. I don't go, yeah, amazing question, like, like I just.

• 6:45Lewis Howes?

  I'm the man with that question.

• 6:47Zane Lowe?

  You know, I mean, I'm just, I love the moment and then I leave it to someone else to figure out. Right?

• 6:53Zane Lowe?

  And so I was never worried about that, about not doing great work up to a point. It's just that I felt like I was uninspired in my, in my line of questioning. The conversations weren't inspiring me. I wasn't inspiring the subjects or the people in front of me.

• 7:07Lewis Howes?

  Cause you were still interviewing the most inspiring artists in the world.

• 7:11Zane Lowe?

  It's all still happening at the time, yeah. I can tell you exactly when it was. It was when I launched, when we launched Apple Music and I was trying to help build this radio model for the streaming era and help the streaming model get started and on the steepest learning curve of my professional life and trying to deal with relocating your family to LA. There's just so much going on that the thing that got me there in the first place was the thing I was least focused on. And so eventually that thing kicked back up and people were like, well, let's do the interview things, like let's get you back in that, in that mic, uh, on that mic. And, and I just wasn't prepared for it. And that's when I was like, look, I need to, I need to find at least an hour a week where I can not deal with all the other things going on and just find out what this is saying to me. And it may, it may be that I'm, I don't have it, I'm not good at it or I don't want to do it anymore.

• 7:57Zane Lowe?

  But once, you know, this, this person, Sarah unlocked.

• 8:02Zane Lowe?

  That aspect of it, it meant that I could actually manage all these other priorities and do this at the same time because I just had to simplify my process and just come in with a sense of trying to, trying to feel what the artist is saying and

• 8:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:18Zane Lowe?

  Feel where they are in their life and just be as human about it as possible.

• 8:21Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting you say this. I've, I've, I have a similar mindset around conversations and interviews. And I think it is more of an art than anything. And I'll, I'll have a bunch of questions here that are pre-prepared that I'll glance at. Or if I need to go and look at, I will, but I almost never look at the questions. It's always what's on the heart and mind of the guest as you come in. The feeling we have, you know, right away, we gave each other a hug and you're like, that was a nice embrace. I go, want another one? Let's do it. And we're talking about New Zealand and other things and, and for me, it's always about starting with a question, which I feel like is on their heart and then allowing it to evolve.

• 8:59Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, I don't even, here's the thing, right? I never even know what my first question is going to be anymore. Like I try to get to a place where it's as immediate as possible. Like whatever the last person, thing somebody said, or how they walked in the room, or how they reacted to this, or how they drank their drink, or whatever. I'm just searching for where we can begin right here, right now.

• 9:17Lewis Howes?

  I saw that with the, the Harry Styles interview you did. I think it was about a year ago or than the last year. I think the first question was, why'd you paint your nails?

• 9:24Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, because he was sitting there and I noticed it two seconds before we started.

• 9:27Lewis Howes?

  You're like, let's start with this.

• 9:28Zane Lowe?

  It's cool. I like the color. Would you get that?

• 9:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, let's start with this. Why'd you do this?

• 9:31Zane Lowe?

  Yeah. And so for me, it's just, um, you know, this dude, this started when we met.

• 9:38Lewis Howes?

  So it's the pre-show is the show.

• 9:40Zane Lowe?

  Yeah. And it's good, it's good. If we, if we're analyzing a process and there are people weirdly enough that are interested in what this side of things is. It always blows my mind. Like if someone comes up to me and goes, I really love your interviews. I don't know what to do with that. Cause I'm like, I'm not the most like, I'm just getting you the info, right? That's all I'm trying to do, right? So I take it now and I appreciate it and I'm done it long enough to not be about that. I'm, I'm just grateful for the acknowledgement, but. The truth is like, you wanna know your subject to the point where it's respectful. I can't interview someone unless I hear the music, or I watch the film, or read the book to some degree, or know what the subject's about. But then, that just has to sit there. And then I just, if I've got the knowledge in my head, and I figure like, I understand what the human has achieved, then I just wanna come at it from a place of feeling.

• 10:20Zane Lowe?

  It's really about the feeling. Like, if I can't feel, if I'm not in a place where I'm open enough to feel what you're trying to achieve with this music right now, then I'm not prepared to sit down and talk to you about it.

• 10:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you may not be interested enough or excited enough to dive into it if you don't know that, have that feeling.

• 10:34Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, I mean, I get emotional in these conversations too, because I know when we talk about that song, what it's about, because it made me feel that way. And maybe you bring up things to me, which some people may think is a bit indulgent, but I love a two-way conversation. I don't, I'm not a Q and A guy. I don't, I'm not like a, "Thank you."

• 10:51Lewis Howes?

  Next question.

• 10:52Zane Lowe?

  My next question is like, if I can't have it so that we're sharing and opening up together, at least, and I try to get the line right, and sometimes I overstep it, and I overshare a bit too much, and my editors are a bit generous with my take on things, but, man, I've been doing this a long time, like, I did that junket thing. It's not fun.

• 11:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you gotta be able to share a two-way street. I'm curious about how, you know, a kid from New Zealand was able to eventually go to London, and then come to Apple Music and be the go-to guy for the biggest musicians in the world, to essentially come to first before they do any other interviews. How does that even happen? Why you? What makes you and your story unique that has allowed this to occur? Because it didn't happen by accident. It's not like someone just plucked you out because they're like, "Oh, this guy could be good."

• 11:46Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 11:46Lewis Howes?

  There was a path that you followed, whether it was deliberate or undeliberate, and you just kept showing up. But how did that happen?

• 11:56Zane Lowe?

  I mean, you know, it's like it's still happening. So it's hard to know when you're still kind of like enjoying the experience and you're still in your life. Maybe there'll be a time when you sort of look back and reflect on it a little bit. You know, I

• 12:08Lewis Howes?

  Because it's been what, eight years in Apple Music now?

• 12:09Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, yeah, we're coming up nine and then before that it was like nearly thirteen at the BBC and before that it was in TV and then there was. So that, so yeah, I mean, I could put it in a nutshell and it could seem like a really quick, short journey from Auckland to here. But there's so many moments of just luck and realizing there's a moment that you should cap, that you should take, like live in that moment and make the most of it and, and work. I mean, it's true, you know, the, you know, the hours and hours you spend doing what you love, it's not work, but it's still effort. And the effort pays off. So, you know, that equation is, is, is well documented and, and you know this. I mean, you deal in greatness, you've spoken to great people.

• 12:51Zane Lowe?

  I'm sure that, you know, everyone kind of lives by the same principles to some degree, which is find something that you love. Be solely focused on it to the point where it's obsessive. Take your opportunities graciously and with real gratitude. Work.

• 13:10Zane Lowe?

  Be good to people, right? Learn to say no. Make sure that the yes is the right yes. All these things are kind of, the roadmap's there for people to use. Now, what's unique for everybody is, you know, how you put those pieces together, how it shapes your picture. And the only thing I know that's been a constant in my life is that I really am just a real fan, like.

• 13:35Lewis Howes?

  Of the music, of the artists?

• 13:37Zane Lowe?

  I'm just a fan.

• 13:38Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:39Zane Lowe?

  Like the fan, like everyone's the fan.

• 13:42Lewis Howes?

  You are the super fan.

• 13:42Zane Lowe?

  I'm, in my mind, I'm like, I am a massive fan of music. I'm not going to put myself above anybody else, but I really love it and it really moves me and it really generates an enormous amount of energy in me. Like if energy's tangible, it comes out of me when music is playing that I love. Like emotion, like I was driving here, listening to this playlist I made yesterday for Queens, from a Queens of the Stone Age, from their back catalog, but it's not hits, like there's not one single in there. It's all just album songs that are just driving music, right? It's just like Mexicola and Turning on the Screw and just like Someone's in the Wolf and just all this stuff. It's just so heavy and it's like, when I'm driving, listening to that, like I'm in the. Bam.

• 14:21Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, really?

• 14:23Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, it's like it's very, very sort of tangible for me. And so I think if you believe in the laws of attraction, which I certainly do,

• 14:33Zane Lowe?

  if you love something that much and when you listen to it, you feel like you're inside it or a part of it, then you maybe eventually become a part of the process.

• 14:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 14:43Zane Lowe?

  I mean, I've seen it over and over again. I mean,

• 14:47Zane Lowe?

  you know, it was, I want to get it right. I'm sure it was Janelle Monae who told me a story about walking into a room to play a show that Stevie Wonder was also playing. And he was sound checking her song when she walked in. And we talked about the law of attraction from being a young person, a fan of Stevie, to that moment of realizing that Stevie was playing her song. This is, this happens all the time, all over the world in lots of different ways, right? How else do you end up playing football on the same

• 15:21Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 15:21Zane Lowe?

  team as your heroes? Just how it goes. Inspiration breeds this kind of attraction. So um, she had this really cool take on it, which was that

• 15:32Zane Lowe?

  if someone inspires you enough that they end up altering the course of your life in their direction, then it goes without saying that at some point you will come face to face with that person. And what may happen in the case of Stevie and Janelle is that that person is then reflecting

• 15:52Zane Lowe?

  your version of them upon themselves, right?

• 15:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:56Zane Lowe?

  So Stevie hears in Janelle's music what Stevie knows about himself.

• 16:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, man.

• 16:01Zane Lowe?

  And it's why he's, why he's drawn to that song to play it because it's a mirror image in many respects.

• 16:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 16:06Zane Lowe?

  And that's, that's the beauty of connection. That's the beauty of why we as young people find people that make us want to go and train harder and learn instruments and

• 16:15Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 16:15Zane Lowe?

  make beats for 12 hours a day or learn to rap or whatever.

• 16:18Lewis Howes?

  Who was the first inspiration for you or the first couple in music when you were kind of growing up and you heard something, you're like, oh, I want to learn this instrument. Oh, I want to get into this. Or I want to be the DJ because of this person.

• 16:29Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, I, I wanted to be in, in all kinds of bands. I mean, I, you know, I literally would create fantasy worlds when, when I would be at home and as a young kid, I'd set up these drum kits made of like, you know, old thick phone books and I'd turn the edges of the cardboard off and that would be my hi hat with chopsticks. And I'd make these crazy drum kits and I'd just play Led Zeppelin for like two hours, all right? Pretend I was in Depeche Mode, like, I mean, the imagination was my refuge because my reality was, at best, pretty quiet, Auckland, eighties.

• 16:59Lewis Howes?

  Chill, not much going on.

• 17:01Zane Lowe?

  Not much going on, sports and school. And then I also came from this kind of pretty, um, difficult divorce background in terms of like, my parents had a rough, a rough end to their relationship, um, you know, at a time when divorce wasn't common and so, and at an age when I was very, um, uh, I was open to that trauma. I was, I was in the moment of trying to establish my identity and it was a really classic sort of divorce story, which has gone on hundreds of millions of times, who knows, billions of times around the world where something happens in your life and it attaches itself to you. And so my way through that was music.

• 17:40Zane Lowe?

  I would just be in the band.

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  Your own band, like in your imagination?

• 17:46Zane Lowe?

  Their band, like, you know, I am in those minutes.

• 17:49Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 17:49Zane Lowe?

  Like, you know.

• 17:50Lewis Howes?

  But that was your escape?

• 17:51Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, it's my escape. It was my way of just imagining what life would be like if I was in their band and how wonderful it would be. And that's really where the idea of wanting to be more than just a music listener. And I guess I began this kind of journey of wanting to get as close to the music as I can.

• 18:11Lewis Howes?

  This is fascinating because there's so many great musicians and artists out there. And I feel like you know this way better than I do, but I feel like a lot of the music is, is created from a place of yearning to want something, yearning for love or something they wanted or escaping pain.

• 18:30Lewis Howes?

  Do you think it's possible for great artists to produce and create amazing music that is connected around the world without some type of trauma or lack?

• 18:45Zane Lowe?

  Well, I think, I think the, the question is, is does, does anyone go through life without some kind of trauma?

• 18:52Zane Lowe?

  I mean, I, I, I think that

• 18:55Zane Lowe?

  I, I, I've never met anyone who could literally sit there and go, ah, my life was perfect from start to finish. You know, um.

• 19:05Zane Lowe?

  I think that the desire to express yourself through the arts often comes from

• 19:12Zane Lowe?

  not feeling like you have a

• 19:15Zane Lowe?

  a sort of natural pathway to explaining those things or figuring those things out. And, and often it's, it's just a way to communicate and to express yourself in ways that conventional communication just doesn't work for you, or the environment isn't there for you. So yeah, I think that a lot of the arts, a lot of people who make art or express themselves and it's across the board. Not just in music. I mean, I know a few people who work in canvas, work in sculpting, who work in, in more sort of tactile arts. It's absolutely their way of seeing the world.

• 19:49Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think it's easier to create art and express yourself than it is to sit across someone, open your heart, be vulnerable and have a conversation eye to eye?

• 19:57Zane Lowe?

  Oh, that's a great question. I mean, I can only speak from my experience. I didn't have the tools. I think you have to know yourself really well to be able to express yourself really well.

• 20:07Lewis Howes?

  Scary.

• 20:08Zane Lowe?

  And I think that the fear kicks in because you're like, well, what if, what if it doesn't come out the way I mean it? Or what if I don't really understand what I'm trying to achieve here? I mean, it's, I'm still figuring out. And that's the beauty of life, right? We're all still figuring it out. And I, and I think we're sort of results obsessed. That we forget that actually, you know, it's, it's the learning that as we established here, this is about learning from each other. And I'm not here to, I'm here to learn from you. So, you know, it's like, you know, I, I think we have to really be kinder to ourselves on that level. I think very quickly at a young age, it's like competitive sports, this is all healthy by the way, but competitive sports, education, grades, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, it's all results, results, results, results. And, and I think maybe part of where we're going in the future, hopefully, is that

• 20:53Zane Lowe?

  we can actually start to tandem that with this idea of what the inner voice is saying. Because true art is when the inner voice and the outer voice meet in harmony. That's what true art is. And that would just mean singing. I mean, any form of expression. Writing. You know, when you write a piece of literature that is just like so mind blowing and moving. That's that, meaning that, that, or that, and it just flows.

• 21:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:15Zane Lowe?

  And that's when people talk about the magic is, that's the intangible. That's the magic place where great art gets created is, is when um, we, you know, somehow, for some reason, the stuff that gets in the way gets switched off.

• 21:26Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 21:27Zane Lowe?

  You know, and I, and I think when we're young and we don't, we don't know how to do that, not even when we're young. When we don't know how to do that, or ignore it, it's never off. And if it's not off, how do you express yourself in other means?

• 21:36Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 21:37Zane Lowe?

  Right? How do you open the lanes for the art to flow, for the music, the inspiration and things to flow? It's all just channels.

• 21:44Lewis Howes?

  Right. And when you were going through this kind of period of time with the divorce and your, your parents, that's when you started to lean into the music and lean into this world.

• 21:53Zane Lowe?

  I was always moved by it and I was always motivated by it, but I think every kid is. I think, you know, rhythm is a, is a very natural place for us to land is, and when, when, when we're figuring out what the world is, you know,

• 22:06Zane Lowe?

  it's a pretty good place to start, you know? Um, dancing, things like that, it's a natural form of expression and joy. So I think if it takes hold, it's because it's serving a purpose. It became a purpose for me. It became a purpose to get up. It became, it became a purpose to leave the house and walk to school, put my headphones on. My intention that day was not to hurry to school. My intention was to be able to listen to music on the way to school.

• 22:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow, what year was this?

• 22:30Zane Lowe?

  And then get through school and listen to music on the way home.

• 22:32Lewis Howes?

  Sure. What years was it?

• 22:34Zane Lowe?

  I don't know, in the eighties, I mean, you know, probably like, you know, um, whenever I got my first Walkman, you know, probably ten, eleven years old or something like that, I'm just figuring out like, what do I need in order to um,

• 22:47Zane Lowe?

  just go somewhere that's mine.

• 22:49Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 22:50Zane Lowe?

  Just my place. Um, I still get an enormous amount of emotional satisfaction out of putting headphones on on a plane or on a walk or something. Um, because I know I'm the only one having that experience. It's entirely me and, you know, I think sometimes when you listen to music and it's so, it's so immersive that in your head, everyone can hear what you hear. And then every now and then just for fun, you'll pause and you'll hear the birds or the cars or everyone's just going about their life.

• 23:25Lewis Howes?

  Talking.

• 23:26Zane Lowe?

  Like, I love that because there's something very comforting about knowing that life is just moving on, right? It's a really good reminder that.

• 23:38Zane Lowe?

  Everyone's just doing the best they can and getting on with life.

• 23:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:42Zane Lowe?

  And, you know, mu- music just helps me do that. It's just, it continues to be this

• 23:48Zane Lowe?

  amazing place that allows me to feel things that are intangible. I don't know how to, I don't know how to access those things sometimes without the help of.

• 23:57Lewis Howes?

  Music, yeah. Was there ever an aha moment for you when you were playing, you know, growing up or when you started interviewing people where you were like, I cannot believe I'm playing with or interviewing this individual that I've been a fan of for so long?

• 24:11Zane Lowe?

  Oh, there were so many. I mean, from a really early age, because when I was working in New Zealand, you know, there wasn't a huge amount of outlet for artists to kind of do press or whatever, but eventually that kind of all come through.

• 24:24Zane Lowe?

  So, yeah, I mean, before I even went to London, I had this kind of show tape of like, you know,

• 24:33Zane Lowe?

  I mean, I talked about it with them the other day. I mean, we're on our 20th plus interview now and nearly thirty, almost thirty years I've been talking to Billy Corgan and I remember in 1994, sitting on a grassy bank.

• 24:45Lewis Howes?

  In Auckland?

• 24:45Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, the big, the first ever Big Day Out where the band were playing just after Sign Me A Dream came out, that came out, they were on like 4:30 in the afternoon. And I'll never forget it, you know, like, I knew that album, but I didn't really, but I sort of, I kind of fell in love with him before I really got the band. And that was a big thing for me. Like, I interviewed him and just thought, this guy has something about this guy is like, he's just really got some crazy vibe about him, aura about him. And then I heard the music and I made the connection between the two and then that album has been my companion my whole life. So that was crucial. I mean, being at Radio One and getting that first Jay-Z conversation was a game changer.

• 25:25Lewis Howes?

  What was that like?

• 25:26Zane Lowe?

  It just changed everything for me.

• 25:28Lewis Howes?

  What year was that?

• 25:30Zane Lowe?

  Um, well, this actually was the second, well, the first one happened around Blueprint 3, but the one that that really was the game changer was the second or third one, which was around Magna Carta Holy Grail at Abbey Road. And just, yeah, I it was the, I reckon that he was just so.

• 25:49Zane Lowe?

  Generous and thoughtful and unafraid of the questions and really willing to go there. And just like he he'd made the decision to do it. And so he came in without any armor on.

• 25:59Lewis Howes?

  He didn't have some PR responses and.

• 26:02Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, it fell away immediately. It felt immediately like we could have talked for hours and hours and hours and hours. And we did. We talked for like two hours. And um, I remember after that day, like, I was like, okay, you can do this. Like, you can.

• 26:13Lewis Howes?

  Right. He was probably the biggest in the world at the time, right?

• 26:15Zane Lowe?

  And you can still, and you can go into the room with him and um, he just made me feel in that moment. Like it was a worth, it was a worthwhile experience. And you know, it's different for you because you've built this amazing experience where people want to come into this room with you.

• 26:35Zane Lowe?

  You've established through really thoughtful, great conversation and very smart kind of um, sort of complimentary branding and everything else. It's like, oh, I want to go on that. Like, I was excited to be asked, you know?

• 26:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:50Zane Lowe?

  I knew it would be a great use of time for the, for me at least. Um, but

• 26:58Zane Lowe?

  most people start, at least back in the day before podcasts were really the avenue, you really came in on everybody else's sort of priority list and what, you know, you're a tool. Like, you've got to promote this record. You've got to, you know, ask these questions, do this job. It's. So I was very, I never felt like I really had much of a, a role to play beyond kind of doing my job. And the Jay-Z one was a big one for me, where I felt like, you know what, beyond what the label needs, what the BBC needs, what the audience expects, just that experience of me and this person I admire was like to such a degree, such a huge degree. That was enough. It made me feel like you can do this. You can be of value to people in this environment, you know?

• 27:40Lewis Howes?

  Did you ever have doubts before that? Or did you have insecurities when these artists would come in like, okay, I've got to deliver. And what if they don't like me and?

• 27:48Zane Lowe?

  Not just that, man. I mean, I think a lot of that was what drove some of my, my techniques was the fear that I, I had to prove myself, right? I had to leave and make an impression. All these things. It's just, dude, we just spend so much time focused on what if we fail? That um, you forget that actually the reason you're there in the first place is because something inside of you believes that you can. Be of six of of value that you can succeed in whatever capacity others think is success. Right. So we forget that and we bury that deep down within. And that's why execution is so hard. That's why people make and don't execute.

• 28:22Lewis Howes?

  That's true, but that's it sounds like that gave you a big confidence boost. It gave you more belief in yourself after that Jay Z interview.

• 28:28Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, it's huge. And and then everything kind of kicked off from there. And it was like Kanye and then Eminem all within a sort of six month period.

• 28:33Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 28:34Zane Lowe?

  I feel like that was sort of the moment when um a chain of events sort of unfolded that ended up.

• 28:42Zane Lowe?

  You know, positioning the apple and moving to Los Angeles. Yeah.

• 28:44Lewis Howes?

  Was that how? How much earlier was that before you moved to LA?

• 28:50Zane Lowe?

  So twenty twenty twelve, twenty thirteen. So if you think about it.

• 28:53Lewis Howes?

  Two, three years.

• 28:53Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, but if you think about it in terms of the conversations began in twenty fourteen, it really was only about a year.

• 28:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 28:58Zane Lowe?

  Because then we did, I did Rick Rubin, who'd never done anything really on camera and hadn't done an interview, at least to my knowledge, in a long time. Um, and now, obviously, Rick has built a beautiful, wonderful empire of conversations and books. And I mean, it's, he just makes the world better by sharing his knowledge. But at the time, I just didn't, it just didn't seem to be what he was focused on. So we had this cool Shangri-La moment and that was big. And so it it just.

• 29:20Lewis Howes?

  So that a couple of year period, there's a lot of big kind of uh uh powerful conversations you got to have with people that really didn't open up.

• 29:28Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 29:29Lewis Howes?

  What do you think allowed you to be able to to create those iconic conversations in that short period of time? At and allowed you to book them and for them to want to open up vulnerably and share?

• 29:42Zane Lowe?

  Well, Jay Z is what allowed it. I mean, he's the one who said yes in the first place, and he's the one who encouraged us to put it on YouTube, which I had no presence on YouTube. In fact, I was like, well, YouTube's for like short form comedy. And he was like, nah, we should should put like this hour long interview up on YouTube, see if people like it. And it was, he really encouraged that. Um, so we did that and then people watched it and then.

• 30:02Lewis Howes?

  And kind of gave you the credibility, the stamp of approval.

• 30:04Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, he just was like, if I'm gonna do one or maybe two of these things, I want everyone to see it.

• 30:09Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 30:10Zane Lowe?

  Um, so put it where the audience is, right? Valuable lesson, put it where the audience is, right? This is about visibility. I want people to know my music's out. I want people to know what it's about, right? I'm chosen you to have one of these rare conversations. Let's put it everywhere. I'm like, of course, it makes total sense. So, right? But at the time, I'm being like super overly curatorial in the whole experience out of fear. Because I'm like, what if I, what if I put my stuff on YouTube and people don't care?

• 30:30Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:31Zane Lowe?

  It's all that stuff. So it's. And he just cut through it and was like, no one has time for that. Put it up. So we put it up. It happened and then.

• 30:40Zane Lowe?

  I mean, there's luck involved, there's timing involved, but the truth is, you know, when I spoke to Kanye West around the Yeezus project, which was quite a significant conversation at the time,

• 30:53Zane Lowe?

  where he really did a lot of talking to camera and really addressed primarily the fashion industry and kind of outlined what he was gonna do.

• 30:59Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:02Zane Lowe?

  At the time, you know, we had been

• 31:07Zane Lowe?

  putting breadcrumbs around the place for a while. Like, I'd spent the last couple of years trying to kind of get to him and see if he didn't want to talk. Because again, he had spoken for two or three years at that time. It was a bit of a media blackout for him.

• 31:20Zane Lowe?

  He was just making music and wasn't really doing many interviews. So I was just...

• 31:23Lewis Howes?

  But you were putting feelers out, sending it to his team or people he knew and say, hey, I'd love to have him on.

• 31:28Zane Lowe?

  We still do that. I mean, I made a call yesterday to try to get something teed up that won't happen for another year.

• 31:33Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 31:34Zane Lowe?

  All the time.

• 31:34Lewis Howes?

  But now you're running up Apple Music. Isn't it easier to get these artists who want to promote a new album?

• 31:40Zane Lowe?

  It's not the point, though. So the point isn't to wait for them to want to promote the album. The point is to get the conversation that is of most value.

• 31:48Lewis Howes?

  Amen.

• 31:49Zane Lowe?

  Right? The point is to have the conversation with someone that is really impactful. And you can have that when there's something to promote. That's where it's our job to get behind the record or behind the project and get inside the human experience. But, you know, there's someone I've wanted to talk to my entire life.

• 32:06Lewis Howes?

  Who's still having a conversation with.

• 32:08Zane Lowe?

  Who's an older artist, who is like a ghost cat, like Walter Mitty, like waiting for the cat to come out of the, you know. And I'm three, four conversations in several years and trying to make that happen. That's part of it. It's one part of it.

• 32:22Lewis Howes?

  I know. A lot of it's timing. There's been guests I've been trying to get for 10 years that I have been on top of the publicist that I'm...

• 32:29Zane Lowe?

  You know.

• 32:29Lewis Howes?

  I have five relationships with their closest, like I'm in the mix somehow, but they, it just hasn't worked timing wise.

• 32:35Zane Lowe?

  Bill was the same. You know, Bill Simmons, a good friend of mine, he's the same. We talk about, he's like, man, you know, I've been waiting years to get that one. It's like, it's just, it's how it goes.

• 32:42Lewis Howes?

  He's massive, yeah.

• 32:44Zane Lowe?

  By the way, it's whack to rest on your laurels and anything you've achieved is done.

• 32:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, totally worth it. You gotta keep, gotta keep building it.

• 32:51Zane Lowe?

  Done. Done. It belongs. It exists. It's there. You know, Neil Young said something really cool to me while I was talking to him and had this awesome conversation with him and Rick Rubin. And Neil Young said to me, I tried to ask him about Harvest and he was like, yeah, you know. I'll give you like a minute about Harvest, but anything beyond that, you're gonna have to ask that guy. And I'm like, who's that guy? He's like, that guy who made that album, he's still back there? Just gotta go find him. And I'm like, but how do I find him? He's like, I don't know, go back there.

• 33:18Lewis Howes?

  Somewhere back there.

• 33:19Zane Lowe?

  He's like, there's been thousands of me. I don't know what that guy thinks about Harvest anymore. I know what I think and I'll give you a soundbite on it, but I'm thinking about this today, right now.

• 33:29Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 33:30Zane Lowe?

  That's cool.

• 33:31Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious about, this is fascinating. I love hearing this from someone who also does interviews because I don't have a lot of people that do similar things as me on here, which is fascinating. This might get you in a little trouble, but, and I know every artist that you've had on has been inspiring in their own way.

• 33:49Zane Lowe?

  Oh, it's the list, it's the who's the most?

• 33:51Lewis Howes?

  It's not the who's the most. It's the, because everyone will ask me like, who's your favorite guest? And it's, it's actually.

• 33:56Zane Lowe?

  I am, obviously.

• 33:57Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, right?

• 33:57Zane Lowe?

  But I tell you, not because of me, because I'm the, I'm the one today.

• 34:00Lewis Howes?

  Right now.

• 34:00Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 34:01Lewis Howes?

  And it's not a favorite guest question, because I don't think that's fair.

• 34:04Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 34:05Lewis Howes?

  But the, the three artists that really spoke to you, and maybe in an emotional way. I guess they all do, obviously, but maybe it's something that was on your heart and mind that, that season of your life where they said something that really spoke to you. Maybe it connected to you with your family or your career or something from your past or where they said something or their energy or their presence that day was really memorable for you. And of course, every artist you've had on is amazing and talented and great, but this top three artists, moments or memories in those interviews, if you could share.

• 34:47Zane Lowe?

  I mean, I can't do a top three because I mean, I've done, I've been doing it, like you say, 30 years and I mean, I, I wouldn't have, I don't have the fuel to get me back that far to remember, right? I'd run out around 2012, you know what I mean? And I've got to go back to 1997.

• 35:03Lewis Howes?

  That's a lot, but just a few moments.

• 35:04Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, you know, I mean, dude, I mean, I, I, I had, I, I had to dry my eyes the other day. I was having this really deep conversation with, with someone and, and they talked about bottoming out and with Josh McQueens and what it is to find the courage to carry on. And that really, that hit me, right? But I think in terms of sort of. I mean, my Tom York, the last Tom York conversation I had is, was one of the very few times that I've ever watched anything I've done, been a part of, back in full.

• 35:39Zane Lowe?

  Because I'd waited my whole life as a fan to have that kind of unobstructed, pure conversation with him.

• 35:51Zane Lowe?

  You know, we had good, good conversations in the past and very awkward ones in the nineties and the two thousands when Radiohead were just holding on, they're just holding on, right? Because the whole world was like, what does Radiohead think? And they're like, we're just holding on, just trying to make the best out we can, you know? Interviews are not our friend, you know?

• 36:09Zane Lowe?

  But that was a really, for me, it was, it was wrapped, I had very little sleep, I had no sleep, I, I had the worst jet lag ever, for some, for some reason I found myself in a total tailspin, I'd flown in the day before from LA to London, it's not a good jet lag. I, um, I had stayed up till like seven in the morning, just spinning out about this conversation, I got about two hours sleep, woke up, it was a morning conversation, which was goo, it was good, because I actually had a tailwind of like, you just gotta do it, had a couple of very strong cups of coffee, had another one at the, at the pub, which was, they just closed down for us, sat down, he sat down and he was just in amazing form. That's great. Very generous with me. And so that, to me, was like a, a moment, and other artists have talked to me about that moment, that was a moment for me when, um,

• 36:49Zane Lowe?

  it was emotional for me because I, I just had been waiting to have a, just this really genuine, it's all on the table, we can talk about it, conversation with him, and he was really generous with me and very enthusiastic to be there. It's beautiful. It was beautiful. And I was so scared, and it turned out to be the opposite, that was beautiful. I, I think probably when, when Hayley Williams and I had our first real, proper, deep conversation about therapy and about the work that she was doing at the time, and may still be, I mean, you never stop doing the work, and, um,

• 37:28Zane Lowe?

  And I was getting back into my therapy and everything else. There was a, we had, we had some really great conversations that was very, that were very moving. And I think it's where I kind of had to learn to let artists be emotional. My job was always to, I felt always to steer them away from that.

• 37:43Lewis Howes?

  That's just the good stuff is.

• 37:45Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, I know, I know. But I was scared that it was like, I felt like I was emotionally mugging people, you know what I mean? By letting them get emotional in my space.

• 37:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 37:52Zane Lowe?

  And actually, it's just not up to me to do, make that decision at all. It's not, nothing to do with me. So that was a really, she was, that was a great moment.

• 38:01Zane Lowe?

  And, you know, anytime that, um,

• 38:08Zane Lowe?

  anytime that sort of the parental influence in particular right now comes up,

• 38:17Zane Lowe?

  is pretty sort of deep for me because my relationship with my mother in particular was changing. You know, she has dementia and so I don't have the same relationship I had with her. And whatever answers I needed on why our relationship was amazing, but also challenging at times are gone. I'm not going to get any more answers, right? So whatever I got to go on now, I got to go on. So, but she's still here and it's awesome. And so I'm grateful for every minute I spend with her and the times I get to kind of have these little moments of cognitive awareness and we laugh a lot and there's tears and it's, it's, it's a, it's a brilliant human experience for all of the sadness attached to that really awful disease.

• 38:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:59Zane Lowe?

  Whenever I get into conversations and the parental thing comes up,

• 39:04Zane Lowe?

  you know, I gotta, I gotta take a sharp breath on that and just stay composed because

• 39:11Zane Lowe?

  the thing is, well, it's like when, when you, when, when you get to a place when you're trying to get

• 39:17Zane Lowe?

  as inside the human experience as possible, right? Whether it's through music or you, you cover the, such a broad spectrum of people's interests and things that affect the world. Um, it's hard for it to not sometimes tap into something you're going through. And so it's just knowing when you, you want to allow yourself to go there. And I mean, you must feel this too.

• 39:39Lewis Howes?

  Oh man. I mean, even you just sharing that story about your, your mom, how long has that been happening for?

• 39:44Zane Lowe?

  You know, we, the, the symptoms came on about four years ago. Maybe we started to notice, but um, in 2019, it became quite evident. And then we, um, but we were still traveling around. I was taking her on road trips and. I flew home to New Zealand for one night to take her to U2 because she couldn't really go on her own. And so I wanted to give her, because she said that was her favorite band, I wanted to give her that experience. She had a great night and then quarantine kicked in and that was that. And the next time I saw her, everything had changed, you know, because I think it's pretty well established that quarantine and and isolation was not good for those who are dealing with cognitive issues and this isolation is not.

• 40:15Lewis Howes?

  It's tricky.

• 40:15Zane Lowe?

  You need the stimulation, you know?

• 40:17Lewis Howes?

  Man, yeah, I mean, I have a story that's close to the heart for me. My father actually got in a car accident in New Zealand and had a severe brain trauma. And they had to cut the car open, the helicopter into a hospital in Christchurch.

• 40:34Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Lewis Howes?

  And for seventeen years was alive, but not emotionally, mentally here. So it wasn't dementia, but it was a brain trauma where every time I would see him, it's like, where'd you go to school again? He could speak and have a conversation, but he didn't have memory. Um, and he emotionally and mentally wasn't the same human being. There were moments of that humor and like some of the personality, but it was almost like he was a different human being. So this is, this was close to home for me. He passed away a year, a little over a year ago. And for seventeen years, I did my best. It was almost like, again, he was, he was alive, but emotionally gone, mentally gone.

• 41:19Lewis Howes?

  And so I wasn't able to fully grieve the loss of my father as I knew him because he was still physically here. And it's been a, a journey of grieving and, and almost feeling closer to him now that he's physically not here. Because I don't have that struggle and barrier anymore. And so I, you know, it's, it's close to my heart with this.

• 41:44Zane Lowe?

  I can relate to, to that and in my own way.

• 41:49Zane Lowe?

  It's about investment, right? It's the time and the energy you put into whatever's changing, whatever's going on around you that allows you to try to get as much out of it as possible.

• 42:00Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely, man.

• 42:01Zane Lowe?

  And, you know, my brother and I often talk about the times we spend with mum, even though sometimes it's really hard to kind of feel that

• 42:11Zane Lowe?

  we can even be present for her.

• 42:13Lewis Howes?

  It's challenging.

• 42:14Zane Lowe?

  But even when we just leave and we go have a beer, we just toast and say, man, she's bringing us together. Like, she's still giving us reasons to stay together and to come together and to talk and to process and to work things through. And so, yeah, that's a really, really, that's a hard one.

• 42:30Lewis Howes?

  It's tricky, man.

• 42:31Zane Lowe?

  I'm sorry that he moved on, but.

• 42:33Lewis Howes?

  It was tricky and it was challenging because it was, for the first four or five years, it was like, I thought he was going to get better. And it just didn't really happen. I mean, maybe moments of it, but he was never able to get back to a fraction of who he was, his personality and his energy. And he was, you know, intellectual. He just didn't have it anymore because of the brain trauma. So I.

• 42:55Zane Lowe?

  Can I ask you a question on that?

• 42:56Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 42:57Zane Lowe?

  So if you,

• 43:01Zane Lowe?

  if you sort of

• 43:03Zane Lowe?

  take a look at the overall experience of that era of your relationship with your father,

• 43:12Zane Lowe?

  from the moment that he was who you knew him to be versus who he became,

• 43:19Zane Lowe?

  what did you learn about life? In its most kind of

• 43:23Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 43:24Zane Lowe?

  micro, micro potent way?

• 43:29Lewis Howes?

  The challenge is

• 43:33Lewis Howes?

  I had to learn how to hold like two things in my hands at the same time, like extreme sadness, pain and agony, but also like the beauty that comes from that. And there's no way that I would be where I'm at without that accident happening. Because in a lot of ways, I didn't have the emotional courage because my father was able to support me emotionally, mentally, sometimes financially. I was in college, right? So it's not like I had a career and I was doing my thing. He was kind of like, okay, if, if things don't work out, like I can go work with my dad. You know what I mean? And he'll make sure that I'm like taken care of and I'll get paid and I have a job.

• 44:09Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 44:10Lewis Howes?

  So when he was not able to support me in any way, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, financially.

• 44:17Lewis Howes?

  It was like, oh, I need to become something greater. I need to figure out life. And I don't have him to, I wouldn't say baby me, but to like, make sure that I'm taken care of. And so as tragic, and there were so many other tragic things around it.

• 44:35Lewis Howes?

  Just, it was just all tragic. I don't think there was anything good about this situation. But who I became, and I, I just cared deeply about human beings and the human condition and human psychology. And it's one of the reasons why I started this show was because I was just fascinated by humans. And I knew I needed a lot to learn myself. And so I wanted to find the greatest mentors that I could, because I didn't have my mentor anymore. To learn from, to soak it in. And I was doing this for four or five years before I started this show. And I was getting so much value from these conversations that I was like, I need to record these and just put them out there. So there is beauty for me from what I had overcome and learned.

• 45:20Lewis Howes?

  And who I became in this journey of that accident, but it was also extreme sadness and loss and tragedy.

• 45:28Zane Lowe?

  Have you, um, did you ever hear or see Colbert, the, the two minute piece where he talks about loving life and all, loving all of it?

• 45:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Appreciating all of it. Gets emotional, yeah.

• 45:40Zane Lowe?

  So that would be the third example of that for me was when I sat with Fred again, and he played me his reworked version of that speech with just some really beautiful drones that, that Eno inspired, you know, influenced him. And, you know, he's a, he's a prodigy of Eno and just these beautiful, very delicate drones and played that speech. And that was, that was saying what you're saying, which is the idea of like, you know, we're always one step behind change, but it's what do you do with it? And how do you apply it? And it's.

• 46:11Zane Lowe?

  Man, we are so fragile as a species.

• 46:13Lewis Howes?

  Any moment, man. This was a moment. Happened at one second he got in a car accident. It was a moment and the rest of his life and everyone in his life changed.

• 46:22Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Lewis Howes?

  One of the greatest pieces of advice I got was from another mentor, friend of mine. Um, and Jason, three, two and a half years ago, he said, hey, you know, I know you're going through this challenge with your dad and I didn't know if he was gonna live. We didn't think he was gonna survive seventeen years ago, right? I thought he was in a coma for three months in Christchurch. We didn't know he woke up eventually. And I didn't know every year, he had so many health problems after that. I didn't know if he was gonna survive or pass every year. But he just kept chugging along for seventeen years. I go, man, he's a stubborn son of a gun, you know? And um, and my friend, my mentor Jason, one of my friends, he said, but he was in Ohio, my dad, and I'm in LA.

• 47:05Lewis Howes?

  And I'd go back once a year, maybe twice to go visit him, right? But it was just hard. It was just hard to see him and just process the same conversation every time.

• 47:14Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Lewis Howes?

  Your father not knowing really.

• 47:16Zane Lowe?

  Well, also you have this kind of built in, not to interrupt, you have this built in kind of sense of responsibility and ultimately guilt of not being more present. But at the same time, it's like, why would you consistently put yourself through this pain?

• 47:26Lewis Howes?

  Sadness, constant pain, which I did for the first four or five years, seeing constantly and it's just like, this is. And he said, listen, you should go see your father more frequently. Like make it, make it a point to go there. If you're going once a year, go there three, four times a year. Just do it. Like even if he doesn't appreciate it, I'm telling you, you will appreciate it in the future. And if he can't express it, he still appreciates it. Cause he never called me after this accident. He never acted like he cared. And he didn't wanna be around his kids anymore. Whereas before that, he wanted to be around us all the time. So it was just a big transformation, a big change. And so I made a commitment to do that. And this was during the pandemic when I did this, actually, when it was less convenient to travel and less convenient to go.

• 48:11Lewis Howes?

  And I did it and I asked him every question I could. And I filmed as many things, I almost interviewed him and as much as I could and asked him every question and every once in a while, there was actually a little nugget in there. Most of it was kind of, you know, all over the place. But every once in a while, I was like a little nugget in there and I have those memories. And then he passed the next year. And so I was really grateful that I invested that time, that I made it the effort to go there, not knowing that it would be that, it would be his time.

• 48:41Zane Lowe?

  Because it's scary and I think we, you know, we, we are quite simple. Whereas complex as we are as a species, we're quite simple. It's like pain equals bad, right? So regardless of the incentive and the emotional need to go do that and the, and the knowledge that it's the right thing to do, it's painful for them.

• 48:58Lewis Howes?

  It is, man.

• 48:58Zane Lowe?

  It's painful. So there must be a reason why I can't go this week, right?

• 49:04Lewis Howes?

  There's always a risk.

• 49:05Zane Lowe?

  There's always a risk, right? And it's, and it's total, I think it's very normal. And I think getting over that pain barrier is really important because then you get into a place where you face these things down, you invest in the reality and being invested in your reality, no matter what it is, ultimately is the closest we can get to being ready for the entire unknown.

• 49:26Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, man. Yeah. I've got a few final questions for you. This has been powerful. I want to make sure I'm mindful of your time here.

• 49:32Zane Lowe?

  It's like I've only got therapy after this. This is kind of therapy anyway.

• 49:35Lewis Howes?

  I got therapy tonight for me too. I love it. The journey, the healing journey is a journey. We're never, we've never arrived, you know? And I think there's different seasons of life where we gotta unpack and take on new things.

• 49:50Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask you the final few questions, I'm curious about.

• 49:55Lewis Howes?

  Maybe an artist or two that really surprised you. Maybe you had a conception about them based on their music, based on what you'd seen in the press before you've interviewed them, based on their persona and personal brand and kind of character type that they portrayed to the masses. But when you interviewed them, there was a different side of them that really opened you up or thought, wow, this is really a unique individual in a way that I wasn't even thinking about. Is there, is there one or two that you can?

• 50:25Zane Lowe?

  There's a group. I mean, I would call it my sort of

• 50:30Zane Lowe?

  three point O or four point O kind of

• 50:34Zane Lowe?

  era of working in the pop music space, really. Because before that, I was, I always came from the corner of the room. Like, I knew what music I liked and I didn't really want to compromise on that. So I knew it was a slower journey and I knew that it was going, there wasn't going to be any shortcut to big numbers or big audiences. It was like, you know, if you want to be the first person to play the hives on the radio, you know, you're not going to be, no one's going to kick your door down for a mainstream Saturday night, you know, NBC show, you know what I mean? It's like, no, he's the hives guy. He's happy in his corner, right? He's doing his thing. He's a new music person. And it worked really well for me and I had an amazing time breaking what a lot of people sort of misguidedly called, including myself at times, credible music. Like, music is all credible. But at the time, we were all caught up in like daytime for pop, evening time for cool.

• 51:20Zane Lowe?

  Whatever, whatever, whatever. Then I came to Apple and I realized like, if I'm going to listen more and I'm going to be, and I'm going to change the way that I approach these conversations. I need to find people who are doing things I don't really know about. I don't really know what drives the pop mentality. I don't really know who Justin Bieber is. I don't really know what kind of life Selena Gomez has actually lived. I don't really, I've never really interviewed Taylor, who's not really, I mean, she is, but Taylor's like, as we know, is like songwriter of a generation. But it's like, you know,

• 51:58Zane Lowe?

  at the time, she was making pop albums. And so it's like, how do I fit into that world? And so when I started having those conversations, it became clear to me and very surprising that.

• 52:11Zane Lowe?

  With a bit of listening and some genuine curiosity and probably a bit of naivety as to what goes into the pop world. We unlocked these kind of stories and these conversations that really surprised me how transparent modern pop artists have become. Really? Yeah. Because in my time, when I was coming up in the twenties and thirties or whatever, trying to find my voice, pop was just so, "Hi, we're the Backstreet Boys," right? It's like, "Hey, what's been the hardest thing on tour?" "I don't know, man. Kevin ate my hot dog last night. That was pretty tough going, MTV News." Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like the headlines, but you knew there was stuff going on. You knew that people didn't like each other. You knew there was drama, people getting ripped

• 52:54Zane Lowe?

  off. I mean, it's not like, I mean, pop music has been one of the most exploited sort of things, right? From an artistic point of view, it's very exploited. I mean, music, any artist is, you know, hip hop, country music, dance music, whatever, the artists have a tough time. So you knew that didn't stop at pop. You knew there was drama in pop, but you couldn't ever get to it. It's like it was always just like, "And cut. We're good here," you know? Followed a light and poppy. Yeah, sell the record, sell the record, sell the dream. And what was really interesting to me was when I started having conversations with these artists, just how honest and inspiring a conversation they were. I mean, I've found my times talking to Selena Gomez to be some of the most fascinating and honest, amazing conversations I've had in my career.

• 53:39Zane Lowe?

  Really? Yeah. Why is that? Because she was so vulnerable and open and real? She's a no human. She's a no human. And if you get her on the day, she knows where the line is. But she doesn't mind walking up to it, you know? And I always thought pop music was way behind the line. You know, you want to go have those conversations, go talk to your favorite rock star or rapper or singer songwriter, folk star or whatever, you know? I never thought pop stars would show up like that. And that's really where it's gone. I mean, sitting down and having that conversation with Justin Bieber, where he was that vulnerable, that open, that honest. Let the tears flow. Let the voice crack. Let the body language tell you everything that you needed to know. That was... Very surprising to me.

• 54:24Zane Lowe?

  It was not what I was expecting when I showed up to the studio that day. And I found the whole thing to be incredibly brave and honest. And I think inspiring for other stars who perhaps felt like they had to put their, present their best and protect the rest. It's okay. You can just let it all go if it's the right time and the right place and you want to. You know, Kelly Clarkson says something to me today in our conversation where she talked about being less of the yes, but sort of being more willing to just walk away from things and not try to defend things all the time. And this in terms of relationships, I can't remember the context, but she was like, it was exhausting. I remember she just said, it's exhausting. It's exhausting to continually have to sort of keep things together.

• 55:07Lewis Howes?

  She started saying no and creating boundaries.

• 55:09Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, just saying it's easier for me just to say, I don't want to do that. Or I'm going to move on or it's just, or here's my honest truth. It's exhausting to not. And that's, that's what I saw in Justin. I just saw at the time, you can watch it. I'm not saying anything you can't see. He just looked exhausted and he just looked like he wanted to just stop. You know, with the whole, he just wanted to be like, here's how I feel today, bro. I may feel different tomorrow, but today I'm tired. I don't know where I'm, I don't know what's going on. You know, I'm wearing a heavy. And so that, that has been a very inspiring thing as someone who's curious about what goes into music and art. The true stories, the humanity of it, to see, you know, so many artists who have so much to lose by being honest.

• 55:50Zane Lowe?

  Hundreds of millions of followers and, and constant attention, constant eyeballs trained on them from a young age to actually be able to say, this is bull. I'm upset or that really hurt me or this is my truth. And I, I think, I think that in many respects, and this is the, this is the thing. This is my little headline from this conversation. I think that this generation of people who were raised in the public eye and have gone on to develop careers in pop music from a young age are ultimately paving the way for pop stars to be able to walk the line with more knowledge, with a better understanding, just a stronger sense of self.

• 56:33Zane Lowe?

  You know, and now you have like the Billie Eilish's of this world who are just all around amazing.

• 56:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, she's amazing.

• 56:40Zane Lowe?

  And just, you know, seem to be able to position things and be honest and be their, be their true selves.

• 56:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Zane Lowe?

  And it took that generation, sorry to go on, but took that generation of pop stars to come out and say, you know, Let's let's break that spell a bit.

• 56:53Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely. Yeah, it's beautiful to watch this stuff and you do a great job again on your show, the Zane Lowe Show. Make sure you guys check it out.

• 57:02Lewis Howes?

  On YouTube, everywhere else on Apple as well. And I love the way you get these artists who seem untouchable to open up in such a beautiful, vulnerable, loving, compassionate way. And so you're you're the master of it. And you do an amazing job of creating a safe environment and also knowing your stuff. So that's what that's what decades of putting in the consistent effort and work and research will do for you. So big congrats to you and I want everyone to go check out these interviews because they're so inspiring.

• 57:33Zane Lowe?

  I appreciate that.

• 57:35Lewis Howes?

  I want to acknowledge you, Zane, for your emotional generosity, for being here, for showing up, vulnerably loving, opening your heart and just being a real dude. I want to expect anything different from a Kiwi. So I appreciate you for how you show up and for being an inspiration to so many people around the world. The way you curate conversations and how you show up as a real human being in these talks. I really acknowledge you and appreciate your skills, your generosity and your humanity.

• 58:06Zane Lowe?

  Wow, well, thank you very much.

• 58:08Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 58:08Zane Lowe?

  I appreciate the opportunity and I appreciate, you know, you coming into the human experience with a sense of openness and wanting to to know about what makes us tick.

• 58:20Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely, man. It's a it's a it's a nonstop fascination for me.

• 58:24Zane Lowe?

  Right.

• 58:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I can learn from everyone.

• 58:26Zane Lowe?

  Right.

• 58:26Lewis Howes?

  Something.

• 58:27Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 58:28Lewis Howes?

  This question, the last two questions, this one is called the three truths. So it's a hypothetical question. Imagine you get to live as long as you want, but it's your last day. Get to accomplish everything you want to accomplish. Your dreams all continue to come true in the future. All the beautiful things. But for whatever reason, you've got to take all of your content with you on this last day. So you've done all the interviews, content, this conversation, for whatever reason, it's gone. It's gone to the next place. So no one left behind in this world has access to your information anymore, your content.

• 59:03Lewis Howes?

  But you get to leave behind three final lessons, three truths that are true for you that you would share with the world. And that's all we have to kind of remember you by. What would be those three truths for you?

• 59:16Zane Lowe?

  That our memories are our single most important and valuable

• 59:26Zane Lowe?

  experience currency. That that all this fades, right? Everything fades and eventually your memories will too. But I'm a big, that that's the only thing I truly like to collect.

• 59:36Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 59:37Zane Lowe?

  Right? Um, I have no problem cancelling something or spending some money or something or whatever. If it's going, if I'm going to get a great memory out of it.

• 59:46Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 59:46Zane Lowe?

  Um, to accept and acknowledge that, um, it's, you know,

• 59:55Zane Lowe?

  that in order to love and people in your life in a way that is rewarding to yourself, that it's, it's totally valid to love yourself. And that often we we project what love is, but we don't really love who we are. And it took me a long time in my life to actually be able to say to myself, like, I like you, dude. Like, I love myself and it changed every one of my relationships for the better. It made me a better guide for for our kids, my wife and myself and our children. And it allowed me to just to listen to my own voice and to not want to turn it off or not want to ignore it. So I'm a big believer in like finding the time in the space to not just sort of learn to love other people

• 1:00:37Zane Lowe?

  and to put your identity through that, but to actually to not be unafraid to love yourself.

• 1:00:42Lewis Howes?

  I want to follow up with that really quick. When did you

• 1:00:47Lewis Howes?

  realize that you didn't fully love yourself?

• 1:00:49Zane Lowe?

  Oh, from a young age, I I I realized pretty early on that, um, something inside of me was stuck in this, um, sort of trauma and I and I really, I I I just, I never felt sort of complete. I never felt entirely comfortable with myself and I and I think it it took me to go to therapy and to really, um, realize that ultimately my role in all of this is is is to be a family member and to be, you know, the the best possible kind of to to be the most valued of the people I care about requires me to value myself. Otherwise, it's all just bullshit.

• 1:01:25Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 1:01:26Zane Lowe?

  You know, it's it's and so.

• 1:01:30Zane Lowe?

  I I had to be really miserable and then realize it's just not gonna sustain me. I need to find, you know, I couldn't, you know, it's like the whole thing of like, can you actually stand in front of a mirror and tell yourself you like yourself?

• 1:01:40Lewis Howes?

  Oh man, when was that? When could you actually stand in front of the mirror and say, I like you, I love you, I accept you?

• 1:01:46Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, it was during the time when I became a parent and I realized if in order for me to be able to to to to be a father, a real parent, I I needed to be able to acknowledge that.

• 1:01:55Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:01:55Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, in a big way.

• 1:02:00Zane Lowe?

  And um.

• 1:02:03Zane Lowe?

  That music is, despite what a great job we've done of um condensing it and

• 1:02:13Zane Lowe?

  uh monetizing it and commercializing it and making it into these beautiful little packaged things, that at its very core, it is magic. It's it it comes from an intangible space and it inspires us in a very intangible way. To the point where we try to understand it as much as we possibly can, we analyze it, I analyze it's my job. Da da da da da da, but the more time I spend doing it, the more I realize it's just magical.

• 1:02:46Lewis Howes?

  It's more spiritual.

• 1:02:47Zane Lowe?

  It's pure magic. It finds you when you need it.

• 1:02:51Zane Lowe?

  It stays with you, it holds you, it comes out of you. Um, it is. I truly think it is um. It's the the biggest trick we've all played on on on ourselves is that um it's it's not the the truth. It's not the true experience of life. Art is the true experience of life.

• 1:03:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:14Zane Lowe?

  That painting is what it is to be alive, that song is what it is to be alive, that that film or that script or that written word or the conversation, anything that is a form of expression is is is its true nature. Um, that is, that's that's that's the magic of being here, I think. So, you know, really, it's just about um, you know, allowing ourselves to be human, allowing ourselves to love and allowing ourselves to to to to appreciate um art. I just.

• 1:03:47Zane Lowe?

  Sometimes we're just not kind to art.

• 1:03:49Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 1:03:50Zane Lowe?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 1:03:50Lewis Howes?

  Very critical art, yeah.

• 1:03:52Zane Lowe?

  Yeah, and I think, I think art is,

• 1:03:56Zane Lowe?

  it's really magic. The longer I go in this life, the more magic I realize it is.

• 1:04:00Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:04:00Zane Lowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Lewis Howes?

  Final question, you've, you've had a lot of beautiful memories, and you've been around the greatest musicians in the world. But I'm curious, what is your definition of greatness?

• 1:04:14Zane Lowe?

  Achieving,

• 1:04:18Zane Lowe?

  a sense of,

• 1:04:23Zane Lowe?

  understanding what it is you're trying to achieve in the moment, albeit in conversation, albeit through ambition or whatever, acknowledging in that moment that you have achieved something, and utilizing that to go and inspire you to do something else. The balance between those two things is, is really what that is. I, I, I think the, the aspiration is very important. The desire to focus and to train, work hard to achieve these goals is great. But I think true greatness is in balance. That's what I think. I think it's in loving what you do and achieving things, inspiring yourself to continue to achieve things,

• 1:05:06Zane Lowe?

  but never at the expense of living a life that is rewarding in every way. I, I'm big on balance, man. That's what I think.

• 1:05:15Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels, at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life. Then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter and get it delivered

• 1:05:59Lewis Howes?

  right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.