Alex Honnold: THIS Is The MINDSET That Allowed Me To Achieve What NO ONE Ever Has (+ What’s NEXT!)

Alex Honnold is history’s greatest ever climber in the free solo style, meaning he ascends without a rope or protective equipment of any kind. Above about 50 feet, any fall would likely be lethal, which means that, on epic days of soloing, he might spend 12 or more hours in the Death Zone. On the hardest parts of some climbing routes, his fingers will have no more contact with the rock than most people have with the touchscreens of their phones, while his toes press down on edges as thin as sticks of gum. Just watching a video of Honnold climbing will trigger some degree of vertigo, heart palpitations, or nausea in most people, and that’s if they can watch them at all. Even Honnold has said that his palms sweat when he watches himself on film. In this episode, Alex shares the unique mindset he brings to some of the most incredible human feats ever accomplished. We chat about his family life, how he receives love, and what it was like for Free Solo to win an Oscar for Best Documentary Feature Film – you won’t want to miss this episode! His new show on Nat Geo launched February 4th, 2024 on Disney+ - Arctic Ascent: With Alex HonnoldListen to Alex’s podcast - Climbing GoldIn this episode you will learnHow to prepare mentally and physically for life’s toughest challenges, such as climbing a 3,000+ foot wall without a rope. The importance of navigating fear and maintaining a clear mindset in high-stress situations. The impact of mentorship and community in achieving your goals. The role of visualization and goal-setting in achieving seemingly impossible feats. The benefits of embracing a minimalist lifestyle and focusing on what truly matters in life. For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1581For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Nick Lavery – https://link.chtbl.com/1359-podDean Karnazes – https://link.chtbl.com/1280-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:31Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone at School of Greatness. We have the inspiring Alex Honnold in the house. Good to see you, sir. Welcome to the show. I have to read this really quick. So people can understand how inspiring of an athlete and human being you are. More people will walk on the moon than will do what Alex Honnold has done. For me, just reading that in your bio, I was like, this is unbelievable. Cause not many people in the world can do or ever will do what you've done. And I'm curious, if you could explain to people that don't know anything about you, what it is you actually do? That you think makes you so great?

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Well, so I mean, I'm a professional rock climber and a rock climber my whole life. I mean, the thing that I'm most well known for is freestyle, which is climbing without a rope. And I mean, I think the quote that you just read is specifically referring to freestyle in Al Capitan, which is a wall in Yosemite National Park. Which, which to date, I'm the only person to have done.

• 1:34Lewis Howes?

  No one's ever done it again.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 1:38Lewis Howes?

  And what is, what is the, what is he actually did? I mean, I watched the documentary, it was incredible.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Yes, the documentary Freestyle kind of covers it, but it's a Freestyle Al Capitan, which is a 3,000 foot granite wall. So yeah, climbing this big wall without a rope.

• 1:53Lewis Howes?

  Without a rope.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which, which was very challenging, you know? It's funny now, it's been a little while and I'm like, oh yeah, it's just climbing.

• 1:59Lewis Howes?

  This thing.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, like did this thing climbing, but no, it was something that I was working on for many, many years and, and. Sort of dreaming about for many years before then.

• 2:08Lewis Howes?

  And how long did the actual climb take?

• 2:11Speaker 01

  The actual climb took, I think, three fifty-six or three hours, almost four hours.

• 2:15Lewis Howes?

  Four hours.

• 2:16Speaker 01

  Which, for context, the average party climbing all cabin, so typically you climb that three thousand foot wall with ropes and equipment. And people normally camp on the wall and they normally spend three to five days on the wall.

• 2:27Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28Lewis Howes?

  So they take three to five days, you get it in under four hours?

• 2:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's kind of like the difference between ultra running and backpacking. Where it's like, well, once you decide not to take all the camping stuff, then it becomes ultra running and you wind up going a lot faster.

• 2:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  So some of it is just a product of the style, like by choosing to go without ropes, you just wind up going a lot faster.

• 2:46Lewis Howes?

  You have to.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  But it's obviously a lot more extreme to go without ropes.

• 2:51Lewis Howes?

  So has anyone attempted, but they've come down or how?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  No, no, like, I don't even think anybody's playing in that space right now.

• 2:58Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 2:59Speaker 01

  Nobody's really doing anything quite like that.

• 3:02Lewis Howes?

  Why is that? And why is no one else trying to do that? And why were you so curious to do something like that with no rope?

• 3:10Speaker 01

  I mean, okay, so there just aren't that many people free soloing right now. And part of that, I mean, the part of that might be broader trends in the climbing world, like climbing, climbing went into the Olympics in twenty twenty in Tokyo. And so right now, I think the sort of cutting edge of rock climbing is more on the competition front. And, you know, the Olympics and World Cups and things like that. And so I think that a lot of the talent in climbing right now is sort of focused on competitions. Whereas when I was growing up, I think some of the sort of cultural, the cruelness in climbing was more around speed climbing and big wall climbing and free soloing and things like that. Like more the adventure side of climbing.

• 3:47Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Like, if you think of climbing as a spectrum between sort of athleticism and adventure. Like, I grew up and the pendulum has shifted slightly more on the adventure side. Right now, I think it's slightly more shifted on the athleticism side, which I think is maybe part of the reason that fewer people are doing big wall solos and more people are going to the Olympics. But. But whatever, I mean, that's just the way a sport grows up.

• 4:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I think the main thing is just that nobody is really doing that much freestyle right now.

• 4:14Lewis Howes?

  Not in general, not even just like smaller walls or smaller mountains.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Well, there must be people doing some stuff that I don't know that much about, but there's just nobody. Well, okay, so you know, when you ask like, has anyone freestyled LCAP? Kind of like, man, for me to freestyle LCAP took this very long journey and I did maybe thirty or forty other big walls around the world that sort of led up to it. LCAP is a very particular kind of challenge. And so to tackle that kind of thing, you start by climbing smaller walls or slightly more difficult walls. Or, you know, walls that are maybe smaller but harder in some way or smaller and easier in other ways. And, you know, basically you mix and match all these pieces until eventually you feel comfortable doing something that big. And.

• 4:52Lewis Howes?

  And that takes years.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that took like years and years. But at this point, nobody's even done any of those other pieces. Like of the thirty-ish things that I did to lead up to LCAP, nobody's actually repeated any of them. So, you know, when you're like, oh, has anyone done LCAP? I'm like, well, no, nobody's even started down the path, like nobody's even.

• 5:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Nobody's even aiming in that direction.

• 5:11Lewis Howes?

  So people are still climbing LCAP with ropes?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, people climb LCAP all the time.

• 5:14Lewis Howes?

  All the time with ropes, yeah. But no one's tried it or completed it without ropes.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  No, freestyle is a completely different thing.

• 5:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow, man.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  I mean, climbing it with a rope obviously requires a degree of skill and you have to be a skilled climber. But it's by no means elite, like any average person with, who's like read enough books and had, yeah, you could easily.

• 5:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  You could climb LCAP with a rope.

• 5:34Lewis Howes?

  Come on, no way.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  I mean, it would be, it would be the biggest adventure of your life. And spend five days on the wall, you'd come out totally haggard and, but you could do it.

• 5:40Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:41Lewis Howes?

  It seems like it's a straight up wall though, I mean, with like very little, you know. I'm so big though, I'm two hundred and thirty pounds, how am I gonna hold myself up?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  But so if the two of us went up LCAP together and I was able to lead more, but you'd be able to ascend ropes, you'd be able to camp on the ledge. Like, you could get up it, yeah. You'd be worked, you know, like it would be hard for you.

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  Might take me two weeks.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  But you could do it, you know.

• 6:01Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  But the difference between that and freestyle, the difference that and climbing without a rope is vast, like.

• 6:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  That I would argue you'll never do.

• 6:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't even know if I could climb like thirty feet without, without a rope on anything, you know, unless it was like, I could walk it.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I think that anybody can learn how to climb to a high level if they're interested and passionate about, you know, if they're curious. But then there's another step between that and then freestyle walls.

• 6:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Because that's like sort of you have to devote your. Like devote your life to it. It's like a crap, you know?

• 6:31Lewis Howes?

  When did you first think like, I want to do climbing in general? How old were you? Was there something you saw or someone that experienced it with you? That you were like, oh, this is something I'm really interested in?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  No, there wasn't like a specific moment. I just always liked climbing. And now, now I have a daughter who will be two soon. And she climbs on things all the time. And it's really hard to tell how much that's nature versus nurture. Because she sees, you know, her mother and father climbing all the time. And basically, everybody around her climbs all the time. So part of that is probably just her being influenced by the people she's around. But also, she seems particularly into clambering on things. And it makes me think that that's probably just how I was as a child. Because I got into rock climbing because my parents took me to a climbing gym when I was 10. But it's because I've been climbing trees and buildings and like things my whole life.

• 7:20Lewis Howes?

  Before that?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Before that.

• 7:21Lewis Howes?

  You were climbing. So like, okay, let's put him in this.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, yeah, I was really in, you know, I was the kid that was always running across the top of the monkey bars. Because you're like, oh, look, I can balance, you know, like that kind of just testing yourself on cool things. And so my parents thought that the climbing gym would be a safer outlet. And so they took me in to learn.

• 7:35Lewis Howes?

  Did you ever have any like big falls as a kid when you were climbing trees or the monkey bars?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I broke my arm twice as a little kid.

• 7:41Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Like before I learned how to rock climb, I fell off a place structure, two different place structure things and broke my arm twice. And then I also broke my arm again at the climbing gym when I was a teenager.

• 7:51Lewis Howes?

  Did that pain ever hold you back from thinking, ah, maybe this isn't for me?

• 7:55Speaker 01

  No, no. If anything, you just learned that a broken wrist is like, no big deal. Like six weeks later, you're totally fine. It's like, yeah, that's no thing.

• 8:02Lewis Howes?

  Was there ever a time?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  I mean, and I fell out of so many trees.

• 8:04Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, when you're a kid learning how to climb stuff, you just fall down all the time.

• 8:09Lewis Howes?

  But you never were afraid to fall?

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Well, no, I think I was afraid to fall. I mean, I don't, I don't want to get hurt. But I really like climbing things. And, and you always think that you're going to make it. You know, it's like, you know, you never think you're going to fall off.

• 8:22Lewis Howes?

  Was there ever a climb that you did that is supposed to be really easy? Like almost the most basic climb ever, like someone like me could do it easily. Or someone, you know, maybe someone with some beginner skills could do this easily. That you thought you got into a very sticky situation where you thought, oh, I'm in a bad situation and I could actually fall and potentially die?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  I mean, I've been in a lot of sticky situations. I'm not sure if any of them were on things that. Should have, they were actually that easy. I mean, I guess the, the challenge though is that if you think something should be easy for you, and then it winds up being just a little bit harder than you think it should be. You know, when your expectations mismatch reality, then that can be. I mean, the thing with free soloing is so much of it is psychological. So anytime your experience doesn't match, or like your expectations don't match the reality, then it's easy to get out of control mentally a little bit. Where you're suddenly, because if you start to get scared, you start to second guess, you start to hesitate, like all of those things where none of those things help your performance. So then it can start to be sort of a negative spiral where it gets quite scary.

• 9:31Lewis Howes?

  What do you think has helped you keep your mindset so clear under challenging situations?

• 9:39Lewis Howes?

  Is it the mental preparation? Is it the physical preparation? Is it just being present in the moment?

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Well, part of it, I think there are a couple of things. One is experience, like being in situations like that. Like basically getting really scared and then managing to, to maintain some degree of self-control when you're really scared is a bit of an acquired skill. You just have to get scared over and over. You know, you know, people ask all the time, like, oh, you know, you don't feel fear. I'm like, no, of course I feel fear. I've just gotten scared so much, you just get used to it.

• 10:08Lewis Howes?

  When you feel, when you feel fear, like when you're like, oh, I'm in a very scary situation. What goes through your mind and how do you get out of it?

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot of the time I experience the same things everybody else does, which is like anger, tenseness, like, oh, I hate this. Like, why am I here? Why is, like, why is this happening to me? You know, like, I don't know. If you're in some tricky situation, climate, it starts to rain and all the same. Like now it's really bad and you're like, oh, I'm so screwed. You know, you start like bargaining. I mean, what are all the stages of denial and grief and all the things? You know, you go through the whole list of like, oh, why? And then at a certain point, you're like, I'm on this cliff and it's raining. No amount of anything is going to change that. You just need to deal. And then, and then you either go up or you go down or, you know, you figure it out.

• 10:54Lewis Howes?

  Were you, were you pretty self-taught on your mental? Conditioning, mental training and mindset around all these things? Or did you have mentors and teachers or friends come give you these psychological skills?

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I'd say I'm largely self-taught, but it's not exactly self-taught, like thinking about it and figuring it out. It's more like having experiences and just seeing what works over time. But also, I mean, I've always cast a wide net. I've read all the books about climbing. I've read all the, you know, books on mental coaching. But the thing is, when I was growing up as a climber, there were far fewer resources for that kind of thing. Cause climbing was just a smaller sport. Uh, now there's a lot more available. But at the time, you know, there were a handful of books. I obviously read them all and I read all the climbing magazines and you'd read all the stories. You'd read people's memoirs. I mean, a lot of the things you can learn are from other people's experiences in the mountains. And like somebody else has some harrowing experience and you're like, oh, well.

• 11:46Lewis Howes?

  I don't want to do that.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Or it's like, I see how he survived. Like I would, you know, I should try to do the same thing if that ever happens to me. You're like, let's hope it never happens. But no.

• 11:55Lewis Howes?

  Who has been your biggest teacher around your mindset in this world?

• 12:00Speaker 01

  I honestly don't even, I mean, there's, there are very few people who free solo. And so, um, you don't really talk to other people doing the exact same thing. So it's more like you apply lessons from like the other edges of climbing. Because you can get really, really scared climbing with a rope. Like most of my scariest experiences climbing have actually been with a rope on.

• 12:18Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  Because well, having a rope tied to your harness doesn't mean that you're actually connected to the wall safely. But you still have to place gear into the, the rock and like secure yourself with anchors and things.

• 12:28Lewis Howes?

  Cause if you don't have an anchor, you could fall down and swing and hit your head and.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, you know, have you, have you climbed before at all?

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  In like a rock.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Like if you ever like watched a climbing movie. So like you tie into the rope and then you start setting out up the wall. And as you go up the wall, you have to place protection as you go. And so sometimes say the rock quality is really bad. And so you can't get good protection for 20 feet, 30 feet, 40 feet. And so if you're 40 feet above your last piece, that means you're looking at like an 80 foot plus fall. You know, cause you'd fall the distance plus that much.

• 12:56Lewis Howes?

  The rope afterwards.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. It's double the distance to your last piece.

• 12:58Lewis Howes?

  You could die from that probably.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So if you're taking an 80 foot fall, realistically, you know, like you could die.

• 13:04Lewis Howes?

  And then how do you get down? What if you fall, break your arm or hit your head? Like how do you get down?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Well, that becomes the stuff of legends, you know? Then, then it's like some harrowing survival story. And that's what you read in people's books and stuff.

• 13:14Lewis Howes?

  Like one arm.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, there are, there are all these legendary stories from climbing, like, uh, some people climbing on the south face of Half Dome, which is like a. Very big wall in Yosemite, but the guy fell, broke both his ankles. And then they had to extricate themselves from the wall. And then he crawled all the way back down the trail with two broken ankles.

• 13:30Lewis Howes?

  What?

• 13:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is like a, you know, seven mile crawl back down to the valley floor. And so anyway, you know, I grew up reading all these stories and reading about these kinds of things. So all that to say, many of the scariest experiences are with a rope on. Because having the rope doesn't make you inherently safe. You still need protection. But the thing is, when you do have a rope, you're much more willing to push into the unknown. Because you're like, surely I'll get to good protection eventually. You know, you have all this gear on you. You're like, eventually I'll get somewhere where I can use this. Like, I'm sure it'll get better. And it's easy to sucker yourself into positions of true fear. Because you're like, I'm a little scared now, but I'm sure it'll get better. And you keep going and you're like, well, now I'm more scared, but it's gotta get better. And so you keep going, keep going. It's like a, it's like a sunken cost of a policy. Throwing, yeah, good money.

• 14:14Lewis Howes?

  What's the farthest you've gone without having to like, I guess, plug in?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Without an anchor?

• 14:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Well, so doing a first ascent in Africa, I went like the full length of the rope, like 70 meters. So 230 feet without, without any gear. Because, so we'd eyeballed this, this feature up this, this big granite dome in Angola. And, um, and from the ground, we thought that the dome was like maybe 500 feet high. And we thought that the big crack that we were looking at would be like a handcrack, like something you put your hands into. It turns out that the mountain itself was more like a thousand or 1500 feet high. And so the thing that looked like a crack was actually like a giant man sized chimney. So it was like bigger than this table. And so it meant that, you know, you have all this climbing gear that would normally fit into a space like the size of this cup. And then the crack is the biggest size of the table. And you're like, oh no.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  And so I wound up going a full 230 feet up, up a thing like that with no protection. And then by sheer miracle of nature, there was a giant rock wedged inside the chimney at a certain point. So I was able to sit down on that and sort of anchor myself to the rock and then bring my partner up and then do it again.

• 15:17Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow, man.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  But, yeah.

• 15:20Lewis Howes?

  So how many feet was that?

• 15:21Speaker 01

  Like 230.

• 15:22Lewis Howes?

  230 feet with no anchor.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So in theory, if you fell, you would take a 400 and.

• 15:27Lewis Howes?

  You're dead.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it would be a disaster.

• 15:30Lewis Howes?

  Was there ever a point where you're like, oh, I'm going too far now. There's nowhere to anchor. If I slip, I'm out. Or do you not have that, or do you not have those thoughts?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  No, no, I mean, you have those thoughts, like you should definitely be aware that if you make a mistake, you're gonna die. I mean, and that's the thing with climbing is that you always have this ongoing dialogue around risk because you should know when it's okay to fall and when it's not okay to fall.

• 15:51Lewis Howes?

  But that point, there was no, it wasn't okay to fall at that point?

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so, but that means that you should climb a lot more carefully and you should be very careful about what you grab and how you grab it. Because if you've just placed protection and you know you're totally safe, then you should, you should take risk. You can just grab things, you can move a little faster, like you don't have to spend a lot of time thinking about everything you do because you're totally safe.

• 16:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Hey, and the rock is good enough to anchor in different places, or you know you can anchor a few feet or something.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  If you know you're safe, you should just move confidently and move, move with ease. But if you know you're gonna die, you should probably move pretty freaking carefully.

• 16:24Lewis Howes?

  Is it harder to go up or to go down, something like that?

• 16:27Speaker 01

  It depends. Actually chimneys, like a big wide thing like that, is actually slightly easier to go down because it's gravity assisted, you just kind of like ease up the pressure and you just slide back down.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  But that's.

• 16:37Lewis Howes?

  So this is kind of like a chimney where your feet are against the wall and your back's against the wall?

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 16:40Lewis Howes?

  What if the chimney is too big and you're like?

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Then it starts to get really scary.

• 16:44Lewis Howes?

  And you're like inches holding on, like going up?

• 16:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, if you have to go to like full body span, then it's, then it's really, really hard.

• 16:50Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever done that before?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but, uh, but.

• 16:52Lewis Howes?

  Not that far up, probably, yeah. I mean, this is crazy. So I feel like it'd be almost harder going down, like trying to see where the holds are and then you have to unhook essentially, right?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  It depends on what exactly you're doing, but oftentimes going down actually isn't, is easier in some ways because when you look down, you can see all the holds.

• 17:10Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Because sometimes when you're looking up a rock wall, it's really hard to see, you know, what's an incut, like what's a positive edge and what isn't. You know, it just all looks like blank rock. But when you're looking down, it often, you can see all the little edges and things, sometimes. But then on the other hand, when you're looking down, you're leading with your feet, which are further away and it's kind of hard to see. Whereas when you're going up, you're looking at your next hand holds, it's all within this, this tight field of vision. Just depends.

• 17:34Lewis Howes?

  This is fascinating, man.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  I know you have to go to a climbing gym and practice.

• 17:37Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, I'm so big though, this is so, it's so hard.

• 17:40Speaker 01

  I don't think it matters.

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 17:41Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so for low angle climbing, like something 90 degrees or less, you're putting all your weight on your feet anyway.

• 17:47Lewis Howes?

  Okay, and this big hole, there's big like things to hold on to.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Even if they're really small holds, the idea is that you transfer as much weight as possible off your feet and you, and it's like climbing a staircase. So I mean, just because you're big, I mean, you can still climb stairs, I assume.

• 18:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Is it that easy though at like a rock climbing gym?

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, somebody with good technique should be climbing.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  So I've heard described as when you climb a staircase, you use the handrails. But you use them for balance, not to pull yourself up.

• 18:15Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  And climbing should be the same way, basically. That the handholds are basically for balance and you still drive with your legs. I mean, that changes a little bit if the wall gets more than more than vertical. Sure. Because then obviously you're hanging from your arms and then it does, it is harder to be really big and heavy. But, you know, but being big and strong helps, so.

• 18:33Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 18:34Speaker 01

  You know.

• 18:34Lewis Howes?

  I think the only time, the only, the only chance that I would actually go to a rock climbing gym is if you were there to like, give me some advice and coach me up the wall, that I'd be like, okay, maybe I could do this.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  I think, I think it'd be easier for you than you think. I mean, you have an athletic background, you're like, you do try, you know.

• 18:49Lewis Howes?

  But I feel like my hands, my arms get so tired, like years ago.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  That's probably because you're using them too much.

• 18:53Lewis Howes?

  Uh, as opposed to my feet.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, stand on your feet and then use your hands for balance, you know, be able to relax your hands and just use them to.

• 18:59Lewis Howes?

  And be close to the wall, right?

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:01Lewis Howes?

  That's what I remember. It was just so hard.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:03Lewis Howes?

  I was just trying to muscle myself up as opposed to using.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  But that's a common thing if you're already a big, strong man, you're like, oh, use my big muscles because I have them.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  And then they're exhausted.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But they get tired so fast.

• 19:13Lewis Howes?

  So it's all in the feet?

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all in the feet.

• 19:16Lewis Howes?

  I read somewhere about you doing a brain scan and having like, the fear signal in your brain less than others. Is that true?

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Sort of, not exactly. So that's also seen in the film Free Solo in the documentary. And that was taken from a science journalist. We did this profile thing where when, yeah, you use an FMRI and basically like looking at images while in FMRI and.

• 19:43Lewis Howes?

  Like a brain scan, yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the takeaway was that yes, while doing this battery of images, my brain didn't light up the way that others do. But the conclusion was more that I had probably desensitized myself to that level of stimulus over years of exposure. So not so much like my brain is missing a piece, which I think is the simplistic, like a lot of people are like, oh, there's something wrong with you. You're like, no, I think the real takeaway is that through. You know, chronic desensitization, like I'm just no longer like I need a different level of stimulus.

• 20:16Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Which to me makes total sense. Well, and also, and you see that like in monks and things like that. I mean, people will change their brain in all kinds of ways if you do the same type of activity for long enough. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's a little bit of both nature and nurture. Where I was probably a little less sensitive to that stuff to begin with, which is probably why I like freestyling and doing some of these other things climbing wise. But then I've also spent fifteen, at that point, you know, I'd spent fifteen years doing it all the time. And so naturally got more into it with it.

• 20:44Lewis Howes?

  A lot of people that come to watch this show or listen, um, not everyone, but a lot of people struggle with

• 20:52Lewis Howes?

  the fear of failure, the fear of going after their goals, going after their dreams and failing. And either being embarrassed by it or just feeling bad about it. And that that fear that they're they're holding on to makes them unable to take action. How do you think people can overcome their fears better?

• 21:16Lewis Howes?

  Is it only through taking action over and over and kind of desensitizing yourself to the emotions and the feelings around failure?

• 21:23Speaker 01

  Well, that is one, that is a good way to do it, I suppose.

• 21:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  But I mean, one way I think that you see in climbing a lot is a is just starting by deciding whether or not your fears are rational or well founded. You know, I mean, in climbing, it's a little bit easier because your fear is often physical, like it's based on some physical thing, like you're actually in real danger as opposed to sort of psychological, like you know, fear of failure and things like that. But I think it's easy to start with, like, is this a rational fear? Does this make sense? And in some ways, that actually makes more sense for the psychological things. Cause if you're like, oh, I'm afraid because my friends will make fun of me. You know, maybe you should really think about it, like, will your friends make fun of you for taking your shot at your dream? Like, no, your friends, if they're real friends, they're going to be pretty psyched for you. And they'll be, you know, bummed that it didn't work out, but they'll be impressed that you tried and they'll they'll respect the effort.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, I think that that's maybe the place to start is like, is this a well founded fear? In climbing, a lot of the time when you evaluate your fears, they often are well founded, like if you fail, you will die or whatever, you know, like if you slip, you'll die.

• 22:24Lewis Howes?

  You're gonna hurt at least, yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so in those cases, it makes sense by starting by addressing them how you can, you know, mitigating the danger, minimizing the risk, you know, doing whatever you can to make it safer. So that you won't be as afraid.

• 22:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  You know, that's why I think talking about fear is complicated because it's yeah, sometimes you should ignore it. You should push past it. You should suppress it. You should do whatever. But a lot of the time you should probably address the root cause of the fear. Like a lot of the time you're afraid because you're actually in danger or because like something terrible. You know, like people being afraid of snakes and spiders. I mean, that's often well founded because there are many places in the world where you will die if you interact with the wrong little creature.

• 23:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  But depending on where you live, you know, you should know because a lot of them aren't that dangerous. And in that case, it doesn't really make sense to be that afraid.

• 23:10Lewis Howes?

  Right. What are you most afraid of these days?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, the big, you know, death, I guess.

• 23:19Lewis Howes?

  Are you afraid of death?

• 23:21Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I'm like, I'd say I'm afraid of severe pain. Like, I don't, I mean, I don't like feeling pain anymore than anybody else, really.

• 23:28Lewis Howes?

  Were you afraid of death before you started a family?

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I never wanted to die. I mean, I love being alive. I mean, the thing with free soloing is it's not like a death wish. You know, the, I mean, in some ways, the real pleasure of free soloing is taking something that seems like it should be really, really scary. And then making it feel safe because like on your best climbs, you feel good while you're doing it. But you're doing something that seems like it should be very, very scary. But, you know, that's what makes it magical is because it doesn't feel scary when you do it well.

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  Right. But before you got, you know, before you started having a family, um, did you, did you look at your profession differently than after having a family?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  Not so far, but I mean, right now, you know, my daughter will be too soon. And I feel like we're just starting to have like a nice relationship. Maybe in the last six months, I feel like we're actually communicating, you know, we're having a good time.

• 24:23Lewis Howes?

  Bonding.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're bonding. Yeah, we're like, you're just like my buddy now. I like to do stuff. It's awesome. And so I wouldn't be surprised if as that relationship grows, you know, my perspective around risk and climate and stuff changes a little bit.

• 24:37Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  But maybe not because I, you know, because I've been in serious relationships with romantic partners throughout all the hardest climbing I've done. So.

• 24:45Lewis Howes?

  And didn't change the way you would address like the things you wanted to tackle and take on?

• 24:49Speaker 01

  No, not really.

• 24:50Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Though I wouldn't be surprised though, if, if children like having dependents is a little bit different. Just because romantic partners. It's always seem a little bit more disposable. Not to be too.

• 25:02Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  Than children.

• 25:03Lewis Howes?

  It's different, yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz you have a real responsibility to raise your child. With a romantic partner, you're kinda like, I mean, there are a lot of, there are a lot of people out there.

• 25:10Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Like, no matter how incredible your partner is, it was kinda like, I don't feel as beholden to them when I do a child.

• 25:17Lewis Howes?

  Of course. Did you have any fear around having your first child?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  No, no, I've definitely always wanted a family.

• 25:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  I mean, even, that's the thing is that even through all the extreme free soul-ing and whatever, I've always, you know, wanted to be an old person with grandkids at some point.

• 25:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, I mean, there's seasons to life. I mean, you know, you can't, you can't just like do the hardest, craziest thing forever. And, and why would you want to? You get so tired.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  You know, it's, yeah, it's funny. I've, I've had this conversation, but I mean, this is a whole aside, but, so, I mean, I'm at the point in life, I'm, I'm thirty eight. A lot of my friends are a little bit older, but it's similar range of life, and so a lot of my friends are starting families right now. And there are a handful of professional climbers, you know, around my age, who have partners who like really wanna start a family, but they're kinda like not sure, they still have some things they wanna do. And, you know, there's like this, this tension between, like, do we start having kids? And a conversation I've had with several of my friends who are professional climbers is that, you know, I've been, I've been a professional climber for fifteen years, and it's been amazing, and I love it. And I've been going so hard for fifteen years, or actually a little more than that, now like seventeen years or something.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  But I'm thirty eight, so realistically, I could keep going at roughly the same pace into my fifties probably. Cuz climbing, climbing has more longevity than most sports because it's relatively low impact on your body and you don't really get injured. So you can go pretty hard for a long time.

• 26:36Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  But so that, but so if I doubled what I've done, that'd give me fifty five. But then I'd still have forty more years of life potentially before I die. And you're kinda like, there's no way I could do it two more times after that.

• 26:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  It's like, you'd be so tired. And just the idea of taking everything that I've done in the last fifteen, seventeen years and then doing it all again, I'm like, I don't even know if I want to.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  It's so much.

• 26:56Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  I mean, I've, you know.

• 26:58Lewis Howes?

  And probably the more times you do these things, yes, you get more skilled at it and better at it, but it's also more chances of an injury, more chances of something bad happening too, right?

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, I mean, I would think also just a little bit less passion for it. Cuz like, if you've just been doing it. Yeah, I mean, I mean. I haven't done it all and there are always like other things to do and other challenges, but I have done most of the things that I've dreamt of my whole life. So, you know, like I can dream up new things, but do they mean as much as the things that I dreamed about since I was a kid? You know, it's like, we can just keep adding more things onto your list because you're like, I don't want the list to end. Is that cool?

• 27:35Lewis Howes?

  For a bigger mountain and a new place, yeah, it's gonna be freezing, I'm gonna be naked climbing.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm like, do I need that? I'm like, I don't know if I need that.

• 27:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  I mean, there are, there are plenty of climbing challenges, I'm still understanding, things that I'm working on and, and whatever. But, you know, I have done a lot of things that I want to do.

• 27:52Lewis Howes?

  What about, you know, this profession is a dangerous profession. I mean, you've had a lot of people that have lost their lives over the years, right? A lot of people that you're close with or people that you climbed with or knew of. How dangerous is this sport really?

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, I've definitely known, I've known a lot of people who've died climbing, but part of that is also because as a professional climber, you know, everybody. So, any kind of accident, you, you at least tangentially know the people involved probably.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  I mean, climbing is interesting because it's very high consequence. So, if you have an accident, it can often be fatal. But you very rarely have accidents. And so, I contrast climbing against a sport like mountain biking, let's say, where people break their clavicle like every other season.

• 28:35Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I kind of prefer a sport like climbing where you basically never get injured, but you're always facing a tiny, tiny risk that you could die.

• 28:43Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  If you did something wrong or if, you know, if a lapse of attention or whatever, like there's always the chance you could die. And there's always the chance of like minor injuries and things, but realistically, if you're just a casual climber that climbs in the gym and goes sport climbing outside on the weekends and stuff, you'll probably go your whole life without ever being injured or witnessing a serious accident. Whereas if you're a serious mountain biker, you're gonna get hurt every year.

• 29:06Lewis Howes?

  Really? Yeah, something's gonna happen.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, gravity assisted sports, like if you're an elite skier, you're getting injured every season. Or like every couple of seasons.

• 29:14Lewis Howes?

  Right. You may not die.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's the thing. That's what I was gonna say is that like as a mountain biker, skier, things like that, it's very rare that you die. I mean, you know, you can, but it's not common. But you're always gonna get injured. I kind of prefer the other risk profile where it's like, you're never gonna have little injuries, but there's always the risk you could die.

• 29:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  I think it's a little more heightened.

• 29:34Lewis Howes?

  Tell me, it's very heightened. Is there something about that that excites you that like I could go up this right now and not come back?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Well, it's not that it excites me, but I think it demands a certain level of attention and focus. And I just don't like, I don't wanna break my clavicle every year. Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna like, separate my AC joint, like break my shoulders, you know, it's like, I mean, I have friends that have all been hurt biking and doing different things and you're kind of like, I don't want that. Like, I love climbing and I don't wanna take time off because I, you know, broke my arm doing something stupid like skiing and biking or whatever.

• 30:05Lewis Howes?

  What is the thing you think about when you have a, you know, a long climb? And stakes are high. What is the thing that you're thinking about? Are you thinking about the end? Are you thinking about moment by moment? Are you thinking about the next few moments? Are you, are you distracted, thinking, putting your mind in a different place? Where, where does your mind go?

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it depends. So say on LCAP specifically, like freestyle and LCAP, the, the route on LCAP can be broken down roughly as a third easy, a third medium climbing and a third hard. Just sort of interspersed throughout the 3,000 feet, like some of it is easy, some of it's, but then some of it's very hard. So on the easy terrain, my mind can just kind of wander and, and you can think about whatever you want. On the medium terrain, you know, you kind of have to focus a little more. And then on the very hard terrain, you, you're basically just focused on the movement. And you're not even necessarily thinking about the movement. You're just doing the movement and your mind is just sort of empty. But I think, um, The easiest way to understand that is if you compare it to running or something. Let's say I think most people have had experience running pretty hard.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  And if you're casually jogging, then you can like look around and enjoy things. But if you're sprinting as hard as you can sprint, then you're really not thinking about anything. You're just trying to keep breathing and keep your feet under you and that's it. You're just doing, doing the thing.

• 31:22Lewis Howes?

  You're second by second. You're just focused on that second.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  You're just hoping your lungs don't explode while you're like going as hard as you can. And I mean, so I think that that's a pretty similar. I think it's a good analogy. Where like basically depending on the level of intensity, you have more or less.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  You know, you focus more or less. And I think, you know, people are like, oh, you know, if you're distracted on the easy part, it's like, is that dangerous? You're like, yeah, you don't want to be completely complacent. You don't want to just like slip and fall off because you're not paying any attention.

• 31:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  But it's the same way like when you're driving in like casual conditions. Your mind can be thinking about anything else and you can just trust your body to do the thing that you've been doing your whole life.

• 32:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, sometimes you drive somewhere, you're like, how did I get here? You know, you get to the end spot, you're like, I don't remember getting here.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 32:11Lewis Howes?

  You know, it's like, but your, but your body and your mind knows where to go. You're paying attention.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  And you're doing something that you've practiced for possibly many hours a day for your entire life. Which is funny, you know, I mean, nobody thinks of driving that way, but it is something that you basically practice. Maybe not in an intentional level and not like in a structured way, but you do have a lot of experience with it over your life. Especially like living in LA. I mean, you know, if you're driving like, yeah, like hours a day that you're practicing this thing that you want to do. So, I don't know. I mean, I think it makes sense that if something you've practiced that much, you can just execute on autopilot.

• 32:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. But before you go up on something challenging, are you visualizing it? Are you, you know, on LCAP, obviously you talked about the whole process of like going up there, doing the moves. Like you had a journal, you're like going over everything, but just on maybe a normal challenging adventure.

• 33:02Lewis Howes?

  How do you approach that?

• 33:04Speaker 01

  It depends. I mean, so in climbing, basically it depends whether I've prepared for it or not, because there's some climbs that you intentionally don't practice and train for. But it's climbs all have ratings, like difficulties assigned to them. And so there are certain things that are so far within your comfort zone that you just kind of know that you can go up there and deal with whatever you find. And so in that case, you don't necessarily visualize or practice or do anything ahead of time, because you just know that it's within your comfort zone. But if something is a hard enough rating that it's like, you know, on the edge of your comfort zone or beyond it, then you kind of have to employ all the techniques I was using in El Cap, like, you know, actual repelling and preparing and practicing and memorizing moves and then visualizing the moves and rehearsing and just all the things.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  And so, yeah, it just depends on what level of challenge you're looking for.

• 33:51Lewis Howes?

  From the moment you said, "I'm gonna climb El Cap", to the actual day you did it, how much time was that? When you made the decision, "This is gonna happen", how much time was that?

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Well, a decision like, "I'm going to do it", or the, or the dream, "I want to do it"?

• 34:04Lewis Howes?

  Not the dream, well, both. What was the dream, but then like, "Okay, I feel ready. Now I'm gonna actually train for it"?

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, so in 2008, I saw the Northwest Face of Half Dome, which is like a 2,000-foot wall. And as soon as I did that, I was kind of like, "Oh, El Cap is the next obvious thing." So, starting in 2009, I was like, "El Cap this year", but it was, you know, but then I drove into the valley, looked at El Cap and was like, "There is no way", it's like totally out of the question. It's way too much, too scary, it's just, it's too crazy. And so then from 2009, for the next, I guess, six years or so, I kept thinking each year that, that like, "This is the year", you know, like, maybe this is...

• 34:42Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Well, I kept kind of just hoping that I would drive into Yosemite and look at the wall and it would look easy.

• 34:48Lewis Howes?

  It never did.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  No, like, and it's funny because even now, having done it, I look at it, it still doesn't look easy.

• 34:52Lewis Howes?

  Like, "How did I do that? That was crazy!"

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Totally. It's a, I mean, it's just, it looks insane no matter what. But so I spent years kind of hoping that I would just somehow get a little better and it would just look easy. And so then by 2015, um, so that's now, you know, six years later of like having this dream.

• 35:09Lewis Howes?

  And you were climbing it also, right?

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I was climbing with ropes and with partners and doing speed records and doing all kinds of things.

• 35:15Lewis Howes?

  With ropes, yeah. So you were doing it.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  But I was doing plenty of other walls without ropes and things, you know, like I was, I'm, I'm, I was a professional climber. So I was trying really hard. I was doing all kinds of things. And I was just hoping that by doing all these things, eventually El Cap would look easy.

• 35:27Lewis Howes?

  You'd be like, yeah, I got this. No big deal.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's not like I just drove in and was like, I hope it changed. You know, it's like, I was like grinding like all year going on expeditions, like climbing hard routes, freestyle and big walls, like doing film, like doing all this stuff.

• 35:38Lewis Howes?

  For years.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, for years, hoping that at some point El Cap would be like, would look chill. And it just never did. So then by 2015, I finally sort of accepted that it was never going to be easy. And that I should probably just start doing the prep work specifically, like basically start acting as if I was going to do it, even if I didn't really know if I could do it. And just see what would happen. And, uh, and then by sheer coincidence, um, the, the film directing duo, like Jimmy Chan and Chai Vessarelli, the, the people who co-directed the film Free Solo. Uh, approached me that year by doing a feature documentary. And so as a professional climber, you're like, oh, cool. Somebody wants to make a movie about me climbing something.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Like it makes sense that, you know, I've had this dream that I want to work on forever. And now some people show up wanting to like basically help me work on a dream project. I'm like, this is perfect. And so, um, so then we made the film Free Solo.

• 36:32Lewis Howes?

  If they didn't approach you to do this film, do you think you would have done?

• 36:38Lewis Howes?

  El Cap?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  I, I think I still would have, but I think it actually would have been, well, it would have been harder in some ways, but then also easier in other ways. Cause obviously the, the stress, the pressure of a film project doesn't really help with something like that in some ways. But actually it does help a lot with some of the nitty gritty, like the logistics, like carrying rope to the summit of the wall, rappelling in, uh, working on sections, pulling the rope back out afterwards, stashing stuff, like moving equipment. It does help to have friends and partners involved who are like working on the same project with you.

• 37:06Lewis Howes?

  You're not just alone out there.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, no, I just mean the actual like weight of like, so carrying 1,200 feet of rope to the summit of the wall, each coil, each spool of rope is, you know, 50 to 75 pound. Like basically it's, it represents days of effort.

• 37:19Lewis Howes?

  Just to get out there.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to get to the top of the wall, get your stuff. Yeah, exactly. It's just a lot of work. And so having a team, you can spread out the work a little bit better.

• 37:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 37:27Speaker 01

  And it was helpful for me to have people that I could talk to about it. And because freestyle, you normally. Keep it pretty low key because nobody wants to hear about your soloing projects.

• 37:36Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 37:37Speaker 01

  No, no, because everyone's like, that's a bad idea. You shouldn't do that. Like, nobody.

• 37:41Lewis Howes?

  No one's encouraging you?

• 37:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, no one's encouraging you.

• 37:42Lewis Howes?

  To climb thousands of feet in the air without a rope?

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Like, if you have a dream like that, that's kind of a fragile dream, like you don't totally believe you can do it, and then all of your friends are constantly telling you you shouldn't do it, you're never gonna, you're never gonna try. You know, so you want to keep it like pretty close to the chest.

• 38:00Lewis Howes?

  So you don't tell people your dreams?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  No, not for free soloing stuff.

• 38:03Lewis Howes?

  You're just maybe like one person, like, this is something I'm thinking about, and they, you know, they got it.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  Not even really. Well, with LCAP, I mean, not really. Maybe some like hypothetical conversations with friends over the years, but never like a...

• 38:14Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because it's just like, because it was too, it's too much. It's too crazy.

• 38:19Lewis Howes?

  So you couldn't tell anyone, I guess your girlfriend at the time, she knew?

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that was the thing with the film project, is that once we're doing the film project, then obviously all the people involved with the film know what's going on. And then, and then you bring in a few people because you're filming with them, like climbing partners. And basically, because we were doing the film project, it sort of opened the, the net wide enough that I was able to talk to a handful of people about it, get some advice and like, which, which turned out helping a bit.

• 38:43Lewis Howes?

  But otherwise, you, no one would have known. You would have just rehearsed and practiced for months.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Almost all of my other major free solos were done basically alone.

• 38:52Lewis Howes?

  With no one knowing?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Well, some, I mean, with varying degrees, because for certain routes, you need a partner to work on with you.

• 38:58Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  And that's the thing like with LCAP, it's so big. Like, I knew that I would need partners to help, like going up and down and repelling the wall, like repelling the whole wall by yourself. Like, you can do it, but it's a grind, and doing it over and over is a bit of a recipe for disaster. Like, it helps to have somebody with you just to manage the ropes and have the gear and all this stuff. And so, it, it just helps to have a film crew with it, because, you know, like, you might have some really good friends who are willing to go up there with you a couple of days. But they're not gonna go out there with you for months because like nobody's that good a friend.

• 39:30Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  They're kinda like, okay, like that was.

• 39:32Lewis Howes?

  Unless you're paying me, I'll go up once or twice, but yeah, I got a life.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. They have, and it's like hard work, hiking to the top of the wall and rappelling down a big wall over and over. Like it's not.

• 39:41Lewis Howes?

  This is like.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  It's not an easy day.

• 39:42Lewis Howes?

  You know, sunrise to sundown type of thing, like all day.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Well, it's actually more like way pre sunrise, like very, very early and then trying to be down by.

• 39:52Lewis Howes?

  Before sunset.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Before the sun hits certain parts of the wall. But so it's more like a four to two, kind of, you know, 4am to like 2pm operation on the wall every day.

• 40:02Lewis Howes?

  For like every day for months?

• 40:04Speaker 01

  No, no. I mean, like a couple of days a week. I mean, they're really big days. You have to rest.

• 40:09Lewis Howes?

  Okay. So you had the dream, kind of hypothetical since 2008 or nine, but then you realized, oh, this is actually the most terrifying thing I've ever seen in my life, probably. And what am I thinking? That's a crazy dream. But every you come back, you train, you try other stuff, you come back hoping to look at the wall and thinking, I got this. For years, you didn't have it.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:30Lewis Howes?

  Until the point where you said, maybe I've got this. And then the film crew said.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Not even necessarily, maybe I've got this, more like, you know what? I'll never know if I've got this or not unless I try. Because I kept kind of hoping that it would look easy before I put in the work. And finally I realized I had to flip it and put in the work before it would look easy.

• 40:48Lewis Howes?

  Just to act as if you were going to attempt it.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Basically, I just realized that I'd have to put in all the work and then maybe it would happen, maybe it wouldn't. But I would just have to put in the work regardless to find out because otherwise I was never gonna know.

• 41:00Lewis Howes?

  And so what did that work look like for you? Like how much time, how many reps?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  So yeah, so then the work wound up being, as it turns out, almost two years of, of effort on the wall. But part of that's because of one of the seasons I injured my hand and like climbing, just like random things happen, you know, life happens. And I climbed a bunch of other roofs while I was working on it and, you know, life goes on. But basically it was like another two years of like working on this LCAP project.

• 41:21Lewis Howes?

  With one, with the one goal essentially.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:24Lewis Howes?

  And, and mapping it out. How does that look like then? Do you kind of have your journal and map out, here's the game plan for month one, month two?

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit. And then actually more specifically, I had my game plan for the route itself. Like here are the parts that have question marks. Like I'm not sure about this one move on this one section and like, what about this section? And then there's like these loose rocks up here and there's like this bush in the crack up there. And you know, there's just random stuff.

• 41:48Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  And so then, you know, piece by piece, I worked my way through the. The checklist, so to speak, and you know, try to like make make myself feel comfortable in the different parts. And I found workarounds through around a few sections that I never really felt that comfortable. And yeah, and then eventually just sort of.

• 42:07Lewis Howes?

  How many times did you do the whole thing assisted with rubs before you went after it?

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Not that many, but that's because climbing the whole route from bottom to top with a rope actually wasn't the most efficient way to work on it. Because like I was saying, maybe a third of the route is pretty easy.

• 42:22Lewis Howes?

  You don't need to do that.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the third, this this kind of medium, I don't really need to do that either. So I kind of wanted to focus all my effort on the hardest sections, just because it's a better use of time.

• 42:30Lewis Howes?

  So it's just doing section after section, just kind of repeating it?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  The other thing is that if you climb from bottom to top, then you need a partner with you who's able to climb a wall that quickly. And there aren't that many.

• 42:40Lewis Howes?

  Just like five people, maybe?

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like literally, there are a couple of people in the world. Yeah. And they're willing to do that with you maybe one or two times. But then they're pretty tired. And they're kind of over it. They're sort of like, why are we doing this over and over?

• 42:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  So for me, it made more sense to rappel down the wall by myself or with a partner and work on the key sections. Because then I can be a little more strategic about the hard parts.

• 43:00Lewis Howes?

  So you started at the top and went down?

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, generally start at the top.

• 43:03Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like a typical day might be starting like hiking to the summit very, very early in the morning.

• 43:09Lewis Howes?

  How long does that take to hike it?

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Um, like an hour to like two hours.

• 43:12Lewis Howes?

  Like an easy route on the back way up?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you basically hike around the back.

• 43:15Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  So I'd like bike across the valley, get to the get to the spot in the forest. You hike around the back, takes a couple hours.

• 43:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  But that's like when you have all your stuff already set up on the wall, like with light loads moving really fast. And then you rappel down the wall. I typically rappel down to the hardest section, which is 2,300 feet off the ground. And then I would do that a bunch of times. And then I would keep going from there down. And then work on a couple other sections on the way down, and then try to be down by lunchtime or something.

• 43:44Lewis Howes?

  When you're rappelling down 3,000 feet, and you see the ground 3,000 feet below you, do you ever get scared?

• 43:51Speaker 01

  No. Really?

• 43:53Lewis Howes?

  I was.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  I mean, well, but like if you get scared just from seeing it, then how are you gonna climb without a rope? You know what I mean?

• 43:58Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy, but you're so high up, man.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  I know, but that's fine. But you're secure, you're on a rope or in a harness.

• 44:04Lewis Howes?

  You, you can just look down and hang there dangling and you feel fine.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  If you know that you're safe. I mean, if I thought the anchor was gonna rip, then I'd find it really scary. You know, like if I thought that the rope is about to snap, then I find it pretty scary.

• 44:17Lewis Howes?

  Right, but if you're just hanging dangling and you feel like everything's secure, I'm good.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's fine.

• 44:21Lewis Howes?

  Look back, dangle 3,000 feet in the air and not worry.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Well, like, so when you ride in an airplane and you look out the window, is that scary? You're like, no, you feel totally confident in your safety and it's pretty chill.

• 44:31Lewis Howes?

  But I'm seated inside of something.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's the same thing. I'm in a harness, you're just sitting in your harness, you're just chilling. But if it, you know, it's something that you've spent five days a week doing for 20 plus years, like it feels pretty chill.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Have you ever done those observation decks and skyscrapers where it's like a glass floor?

• 44:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's kinda scary.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like a little scary.

• 44:49Lewis Howes?

  But you know you're secure, but still.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you saw all those other people doing it. You're like, it's safe, it's fine. And then it's chill on it. You just enjoy the view, you appreciate the place, so like, it's cool.

• 44:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, after a minute, you're like, okay, I'm fine. If it's just a little square and I know I can.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  That's the other thing with, with all this, you know, all my talk of hiking to the top, rappelling the wall, you're spending eight hours a day on the wall. So, yeah.

• 45:09Lewis Howes?

  I'm getting used to it.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  The first step over the edge can be kinda scary. And especially in the morning, there'll be like an updraft and it's cold wind and you're like, literally looking over the edge of a 3,000 foot cliff and your ropes are all tangled and it's like, chilly and you're just sort of like, whoa, I'm a little on edge. But then once you start, like you just can't be on edge all day. You know, eight hours in, you're like, I'm so tired.

• 45:29Lewis Howes?

  You're relaxed.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, it's, it's fine.

• 45:33Lewis Howes?

  Now, after you completed LCAB, your wife mentions in Arctic Ascent, which is the new show coming out, which the trailer is unbelievable, we'll have it linked up here. She mentioned that you seemed lost. And as an athlete, myself, pursuing goals and, and, you know, many different sports in high school and college, being a, a two-sport All-American, professional athlete, USA handball team, I remember accomplishing big athletic goals and almost feeling depressed within 30 to 60 minutes after the celebration.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  30 minutes?

• 46:09Lewis Howes?

  I remember like, maybe a couple hours, but like the dinner after the event was done. Like later that night, I'd be like. Hoping to feel something else. I never really felt what I thought I would after 10 years of pursuing a goal. I was always like, oh, I still don't love myself the way I think I should. I don't feel happy the way I'm supposed to feel. I don't feel, it didn't solve every problem in my life.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I mean, I think maybe I'd sort of already learned that lesson a bunch of times before, before climbing El Cap. Yeah, you just learned that it's not solving any of your problems.

• 46:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  But that said, I still love climbing. So like climbing El Cap, I was still very satisfied. And I'm still very satisfied with having climbed. I was never, but I think what my wife referred to, I mean, I would always, like, I don't know if I was really lost. But I think that, I mean, we started dating right as I started the process of free soloing, just by sheer coincidence of when we met and whatever. But it was like basically right at the beginning of my, my journey to actually free solo cap, the final two years of like training and doing it. So she had only dated me through the most focused and intense period of my entire life, basically.

• 47:16Lewis Howes?

  The biggest goal you had.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, the biggest goal in my whole life. Like, this is the pinnacle achievement of all of my climbing. Like, this is everything. And then I do it. And then, yeah, I mean, I'm sure from her perspective, I'm like, a little bit more relaxed, a little more like, you know. And, and it is true that when you let a big goal like that go, either by having done it or, or by walking away from it because it's not possible for you for whatever reason. I mean, it does, there is a little bit of a hole left behind. We're like, oh, like, what gets me out of bed now? Like, why, why get up early? Why train all the time?

• 47:46Lewis Howes?

  What's my purpose? My mission?

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or like, why do I care about my diet if I'm not, if not for some important thing? Like, should I just eat dessert all day, every day? You know?

• 47:55Lewis Howes?

  So what, when did you, I mean, how long was that phase for you until you got clear on the next purpose?

• 48:03Speaker 01

  It'd be hard to say because that season, so part of my process actually for free soloing El Cap was because free soloing is so psychological, so much of it's mental. I mean, physically, I knew I was capable, but it's like the mental side is challenging. And so even though I knew it would be the most important thing I'd ever do in climbing, I didn't want to put it on too high of a pedestal because I didn't want to build it up even higher in my mind than it already was. And so in a way to sort of offset that, in a way to keep it feeling more normal for myself, I tried to just keep my Yosemite season as like one of many things throughout the year. So the season that I freestyle at LCAP, I also had an expedition planned to Antarctica that winter.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  It was like my first trip to Antarctica and it was a North Face expedition with the whole team and you know, I was just going with people. And I didn't even necessarily want to go because I thought it would be too cold. As it turns out.

• 48:56Lewis Howes?

  It is too cold.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  No, actually, it turns out it was one of the best expeditions of my life and it was amazing. But at the time, I was like, that sounds crazy. I don't want to go. But that's a different story. But so because I knew I'd be going to Antarctica, I also planned this expedition to Alaska with some other people. Again, it was like someone else's trip and I was going to go with them because it's a good way to practice the skills for Antarctica. And I'd been there with them before and we had some unfinished business when we do this thing. But so basically, I had my Yosemite season where I was hoping to freestyle LCAP, but I already had these other trips lined up and these other climbing goals and these partners and like plans because I wanted Yosemite to feel like, oh, I'm using Yosemite to get fit for Alaska and Alaska is getting me fit for Antarctica and it's all just part of the normal cycle of being a professional climber where you go from like one thing to another.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  And yes, of course, my goal in Yosemite is way more important than any of those other things, but it makes it feel like it's more normal.

• 49:47Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  And that keeps it from feeling too crazy for me.

• 49:50Lewis Howes?

  Too intense, too stressful.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so when I did LCAP, like a week later, I went to Alaska and went on this expedition. And as it turns out, it actually was kind of a perfect come down because we had terrible weather. So I spent a bunch of time in my tent, I read a bunch. And after, you know, years of training for LCAP and like several months of intense physical effort.

• 50:07Lewis Howes?

  You reflected more, yeah.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, then I was actually, you know, just because of the Alaskan weather, I just got to spend a couple of weeks in my tent, reading, being like, oh, like chill, you know? But so. Your question though of like, was there a big come down? Kind of like, yeah, there was a little bit, but there was kind of this natural order of other trips and plans and goals and like, you know, I mean, as a climber, you just always have something that you're interested in.

• 50:31Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  But then it was complicated because then the next year, the film came out and then the Free Solo film, I called it my deployment to Hollywood, sort of like a military deployment.

• 50:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Cause it was basically six months of like nonstop travel and events.

• 50:42Lewis Howes?

  Press, interviews, promotion.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Nonstop everything. And so, and I knew it was a once in a lifetime thing, so I totally embraced it. I was like, I'm, I'm going all in, I'm doing everything they tell me to do. I'm just, I'm, I'm here for the experience, you know, like, oh, there's Bradley Cooper again. I met him at the last six things too. You're like, cool. Cause he was touring with a, a Star is Born or whatever. And you're just like, oh Bradley, you're so handsome. And it's like, like every time you bump into him, you're like, you're still so handsome, you know, but I knew that it was like a once in a lifetime thing. So every, you know, the events are fun, like, I mean, it's a bit of a grind.

• 51:12Lewis Howes?

  Meet cool people.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, but it, but it's cool, you know, it's like crazy stories. And you know, it's the only time you'll do it. So you're just like, that's, that's fine. But then again, then you have a crazy come down afterward because you've just spent six months basically living this like insane Hollywood lifestyle.

• 51:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Well, it's like high, but also kind of low because you're basically just going from airport to venue to hotel to airport to venue to hotel, like for months, which for me especially as a professional climber is like a complete change from normal lifestyle.

• 51:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you want to be outdoors.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Normally I like hike to the cliff. I spend the whole day working on some random thing with my partner and then we hike back and it's all super chill. And then, you know, during the Free Solo film tour, you're having days where you wake up in New York City, you fly to SF, you drive for an hour, you do an event, you drive back to the airport, you fly again to LA and then you do another event that night. And you're just like, I'm literally a piece of meat that's being shipped in a can around the country. You're like, this is crazy. But, but you're also like, what a unusual life experience, you know? I think I had two different days like that. There were double days where it's like, you wake up in Chicago, you fly to New York, you do an event, and then you fly to LA and you do another event that night. And you're like, how can you even do that many, you know, like?

• 52:16Lewis Howes?

  You did two premieres on one day.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, not premieres necessarily, but like screenings or dress things or whatever.

• 52:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like stuff.

• 52:24Lewis Howes?

  So that was six months?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like six months.

• 52:26Lewis Howes?

  Of touring around, speaking, showing up, taking photos, doing interviews?

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Maybe it was like five, but it was really, really long. It was like, it was insane.

• 52:33Lewis Howes?

  And you weren't able to really climb during that? I mean?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  I was training in the gym. A lot.

• 52:37Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Quite a bit.

• 52:38Lewis Howes?

  Lifting or you were more like at a rock climbing?

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Climbing gym.

• 52:40Lewis Howes?

  So any gym you could find in the country, you would just go?

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Every climbing gym in the country, basically.

• 52:44Lewis Howes?

  You went to, yeah. Wow, man. So would you ever do that experience again where you're hanging out with?

• 52:51Speaker 01

  I mean, for the right thing, you know, it is fun. Like, it's a crazy experience. It's cool.

• 52:55Lewis Howes?

  What was the crazy story that that came out of that in those five years?

• 52:58Speaker 01

  There's so many. I mean, in some ways, my wife and I now have a lot of the fun little couple stories. Like, one of the Oscars after-party things, Mahershala Ali, whatever, you know, the guy, I think Green Book. I think, I don't, I forget if he'd won something or not, but he was obviously like nominated. He's a great actor and very handsome and all dapper in this amazing suit with this entourage. Anyway, he was like walking by and he like just shook my hand or something because we had just, you know, it was just... Anyway, my wife was like holding a bunch of hors d'oeuvres because we were pillaging all the free snacks. And she literally just threw her snacks on the floor so she could be like, hello, and shake hands with them. And she was like so delighted to meet him. But it's just like the fun story of she like just dumps all her food so she can be like, hello. You know, it's her one chance to shake hands with Mahershala.

• 53:40Lewis Howes?

  That's fun.

• 53:41Speaker 01

  I don't know, just things like that, you know, random.

• 53:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow. You saw Bradley Cooper, what, six times?

• 53:45Speaker 01

  I mean, a bunch because everyone's on the same circuit. It's like the directors go to the award, the screen actors go to the award, the whatever is the Oscars. The BAFTAs, the... I like presented in a word at like the Audio Guild, the Academy thing, you know, just like, like, it's all part of the campaign. It's, I don't know. So you just do what everybody tells you.

• 54:04Lewis Howes?

  You just felt like a piece of meat, though, huh? Just being shipped around everywhere?

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Basically. But, I mean, it's fine. You're just doing what you're told. I mean, it's like having a job.

• 54:12Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  But you're like, what a weird job.

• 54:14Lewis Howes?

  Did you get paid for that?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  No, but...

• 54:16Lewis Howes?

  They paid for your flights and hotels or?

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. It's all expenses covered. And then, you know, I make some percentage of what Free Solo made. And then Free Solo was shockingly successful. And so then, you know.

• 54:25Lewis Howes?

  So you get a cut of that?

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's not, it's disingenuous to say I'm not getting paid because obviously it's all good for me.

• 54:30Lewis Howes?

  You're helping promote something that could pay you.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 54:33Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  And then when you think how well the film wound up doing and then, you know, I wind up getting corporate speaking opportunities and things like that. Like, obviously, the film doing well has been very good for me and my family, and that's all great. But the actual day-to-day, you're not getting paid. And you're just like, this is a lot. Like, it's crazy.

• 54:47Lewis Howes?

  Well, I mean, you're not getting paid to climb a mountain either day to day, I guess.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Well, that's true. That's true. I mean, my friends often joke that if you if you broke out your pay as a climber by hours of of hard labor, you know, you're getting paid like

• 54:58Lewis Howes?

  Petties.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, two bucks an hour to carry like a 50 pound backpack up a mountain. And you're kind of like, this is pretty hard work for that much money.

• 55:04Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 55:05Speaker 01

  But it's because you love doing it and it's so fun.

• 55:06Lewis Howes?

  Of course. I'm curious, you you mentioned this in Free Solo, but how many people that you've either climbed with or know as climbers have lost their life?

• 55:19Speaker 01

  No, I don't know. I mean, it depends on how wide of a net you cast between close friends versus casual acquaintances and things. But, you know, in the broader community, like dozens probably, but close friends, you know, a handful.

• 55:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:35Lewis Howes?

  Was there ever a time where there was like, did anyone ever lose their life on a climb that you were on ever, or an expedition?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so. Nothing like too, too close.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  I mean, I've seen a couple terrible accidents like cliffs.

• 55:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Where somebody, yeah, like you hear screaming, you run around the corner and then

• 55:51Lewis Howes?

  They broke their leg or something, or?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Uh, well, a couple of things like that. No, I mean, people dying though.

• 55:55Lewis Howes?

  Really? Like you were there?

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:59Lewis Howes?

  You were, I mean, it wasn't in your group or was just another group or?

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Um, different group, like some random kids at this

• 56:05Lewis Howes?

  Climbing?

• 56:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 56:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man, what's that like?

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Kid fell and uh, some of the protection ripped out and he landed on the ground and and his head collapsed basically and he died.

• 56:15Lewis Howes?

  What's that like when you're on a climb and you see and you experience that?

• 56:20Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I mean, it's, you know, yeah, it's terrible, but

• 56:24Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  But, you know, you're also, you're always sort of rationally aware of the risks involved. And so, I mean, and this might be one of the things that separates me from from some of my friends or family, let's say, because I don't know if my wife feels the same way necessarily. But, you know, I feel like I'm rationally aware of all the risks involved. And so seeing them firsthand is sobering for sure and very sad. And like seeing his friends was very, you know, like they were, they were all very inexperienced. And so like, nobody had any idea how the accident happened or what had happened or why he's dying. And like, it was all terrible. It's terrible for the partners and um, you know, so that's like hard to watch. But you are sort of like, this is what you've signed up to do. You're like, you know that this is a possibility. Seeing it doesn't make it any less of a possibility.

• 57:10Speaker 01

  You know, like it basically is always on you to mitigate risk as much as possible.

• 57:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  It's just, I mean, yeah, it was pretty.

• 57:16Lewis Howes?

  It's intense.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:18Lewis Howes?

  Does something change in your brain or in your heart when you're, I guess, seeing either a bad accident or seeing someone, you know, lose their life? Is something shifting inside of you or are you just saying, it's more of like a blessing and a gratitude of like, okay, this is, I have to really make sure I'm prepared. It's another reminder of how difficult and challenging this is.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. I think you can go either way. I mean, I think you can either deal with those kinds of things by sort of shutting yourself off to it and like, enter yourself, like numb yourself to it and be like, doesn't matter that happens, like whatever, don't care. Or you can sort of let it in and be like, this is really, really sad. And there are high consequences in this sport.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  But I love doing this sport anyway and it's still worth it to me. You know, but I will do my best to avoid things like that happening.

• 58:04Lewis Howes?

  Right. Yeah.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  I mean, in some ways, I think that that second option is the slightly more responsible and, and sort of, the more seasoned response, maybe. And I think that that's kind of where I probably am now. Whereas, uh, I think as a, as a younger, you know, as a early twenties man, it's easier to just either shut it out. Or just be like, well, they made a mistake and that won't happen to me. Which is like a little, is not really the right call.

• 58:31Lewis Howes?

  What's the biggest loss you've had? Whether it be like an emotional loss or a physical loss?

• 58:37Speaker 01

  You mean like loss like blow in life or loss like somebody dying?

• 58:40Lewis Howes?

  Could just be like a grieving of anything, you know? It could be a physical grieving of someone or it could be an emotional grieving of something.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, there are the obvious things that come to mind, like my father died when I was nineteen and, you know, like grandparents have all died and like family members have died. But those are kind of like normal grieving in a way where like, in some ways, that's the natural course of life. Like my father obviously died much younger than, than he should have. But, um, but it's still sort of natural in a way. You're like, you know, at some point your parents are going to die before you, hopefully. And you kind of want them to because it's better for them to die before you than for you to die before them.

• 59:20Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  And so it's, you know, now, now as a parent, I'm like, well, I hope I die before my daughter or daughters soon.

• 59:29Speaker 01

  So I mean, that, that to me is sort of like natural grieving. In some ways, I think accidents and climate accidents are almost harder. Even though they're.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  You know, in some ways more fair. It's like people are taking risks with their lives. Occasionally they die. You're like, well, that, you know, they made choices and I mean, that's kind of the callous way to look at it, but it's still really sad and it's sad for their families. And I don't know. I've only had a couple of like truly close friend climbing partners who have died in accidents.

• 59:57Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 59:57Speaker 01

  None of them were with me. But, but those are sad because you see the impact on the families. And you know, you're just like.

• 1:00:03Lewis Howes?

  You're close to their friends, their families, you know their circles.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you still think about them. You're like, oh, it'd be nice to hang out with that person right now.

• 1:00:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:00:11Speaker 01

  But, but I don't know. I mean, that's kind of the thing with climbing though, is that it is harder than, you know, like I assume that you haven't had a lot of fellow handball athletes die playing handball.

• 1:00:22Lewis Howes?

  No, that I know. Yeah. I mean, football's more intense and people get injured.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, but still very rarely die.

• 1:00:29Lewis Howes?

  Rare.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Like almost never die.

• 1:00:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's rare.

• 1:00:31Speaker 01

  No, with climbing, I mean, there is a lot more risk. But then that also gives you more from the sport in some ways. Like I think some of the, some of the life lessons you can take from climbing, you can't necessarily get from handball. I mean, with all respect for handball. Because obviously all the lessons around like training and perseverance, like those are all kind of the same. But some of the like managing fear and like the.

• 1:00:54Lewis Howes?

  Different, different levels.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just different things.

• 1:00:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're not like managing mortal peril in the same way.

• 1:00:59Lewis Howes?

  It's different.

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  And like grieving friends and, and like being actually afraid for your life. Though, though it's funny because being afraid of failure or being afraid of like pressure of competition feels the same as being afraid for your life in a lot of ways.

• 1:01:12Lewis Howes?

  In some ways.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  You know, and depending on the person and depending on how neurotic they are and like how stressed they are, it can be worse. So.

• 1:01:19Lewis Howes?

  What about the biggest emotional loss you've had or thing you've had to grieve?

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, obviously relationships, you know, like failed relationships and things. And particularly when you're younger and it just all seems like it matters more.

• 1:01:32Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  But, um, but in the grand scheme of the thing, none of those are that big a deal.

• 1:01:37Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like you have a bigger heart because of the things you've been able to overcome? Do you have like an expansion of? Giving and receiving love?

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  I think I started from a very stunted place.

• 1:01:51Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  And with steady nurturing through my wife and now having a family and, you know, good community and good relationships. Now my stunted cold heart has grown to like a below average size.

• 1:02:01Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:02:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:02:03Lewis Howes?

  Do you think it's hard for you to feel loved?

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:07Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think that is?

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Partially because I think there are, you know, billions of people on earth and it's all slightly arbitrary. You know, it's like if I didn't exist, then the people around me would love other people and, and they would be fine. You know, like life would go on. I mean, it's a slightly callous approach to it, but I also think a very true approach.

• 1:02:29Lewis Howes?

  But when your wife is trying to, you know, show appreciation or love on you, are you able to receive that? Or do you feel like it's kind of distant?

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  We joke sometimes that she's just shoveling dirt into a bottomless hole for her whole life. Or shoveling love into a deep, dark hole. But, but the thing is she's an incredibly caring person and, and she's, you know, she's accepted a challenge in life.

• 1:02:48Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  And I mean, and that it might not be quite that bad.

• 1:02:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:54Speaker 01

  And especially now, like with having kids and, you know, having more.

• 1:02:57Lewis Howes?

  You're growing a little bit.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  That's the thing that I think the stunted darkness is growing a little.

• 1:03:00Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think it's hard for you to, to receive love?

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  I don't know. I mean, doesn't matter.

• 1:03:06Lewis Howes?

  To receive love?

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Lewis Howes?

  Doesn't, it feels great to receive love, doesn't it?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Well, I wouldn't know. The bottomless dark hole is like, you know, I don't know. I mean, I guess. But do you really believe it, even if somebody, you know?

• 1:03:20Lewis Howes?

  Man.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Like even if someone's very genuine and they're like, oh, but I really love you. Like, but do you really? Because, you know, if or when I disappear, obviously.

• 1:03:28Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah. Okay. If someone disappears, it doesn't, I guess it doesn't matter. They can still love you if you're not around. You know, if, if you died, your wife can still love you for the rest of her life. Your kids can still love you.

• 1:03:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I actually kind of think that she wouldn't because I think she'll basically just forget because that's, that's human.

• 1:03:43Lewis Howes?

  Man, I don't think people forget if they have a great relationship with them though.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  No, but even still you lose the details. I mean, that's, that's physiology, you know, it's like you just.

• 1:03:50Lewis Howes?

  You have memories, you have photos, you have videos.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  I know, but actually that's the interesting thing with memories. I mean, this is kind of a whole aside, but I mean, so I've kind of noticed this being a professional climber. So a lot of my life is on video and in photo and whatever. And there are a lot of climbs that I don't even really remember that well now, you know, 15 years later or something. And so your memory starts to be supplanted by the video or by the photo or by whatever the the the external memory is, you know, like the thing that you're supposed to remember. And you're like, I don't actually remember the experience. Like, I don't know what I was feeling. I mean, I know what the article said or what the book says or, you know, what the video shows or whatever. But I'm like, I don't remember.

• 1:04:29Lewis Howes?

  You don't remember the feeling?

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's been a long freaking time. So I, yeah. All that to say, though, I think that a lot of memories, what people think of as a memory is actually just the story that they've told themselves about it over and over.

• 1:04:41Lewis Howes?

  I agree to that.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Or the story that they've told to others about it.

• 1:04:43Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh, sure.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  And so it's not like they actually remember it. They just keep reminding themselves of like this terrible thing that happened to them or this thing that they lost or whatever. But if they stop reminding themselves, they'll just forget.

• 1:04:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  For better or for worse, you know, like in a lot of cases, that's probably better if it's something you've lost.

• 1:04:59Lewis Howes?

  So when do you feel the most loved? When you're doing what? Or experiencing what? When do you feel? I don't know if you've ever talked about love before.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, don't lie about it. No, no, it's fine. Well, okay, so like last night I was at a good friend's birthday party. It was like kind of a nice little sort of family affair. Like, uh, maybe four couples all hanging out, all like very close friends, all part of the climbing community. And, um, and not that I felt loved per se, but everybody was having a very nice time. And it's like everyone's genuinely laughing and like having a great connection. And I was like, oh, this is nice. Like this is real community, like this feels good, you know?

• 1:05:34Lewis Howes?

  So you felt, you felt loved?

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  You feel like the, you feel the community, the the niceness in the air, you know, where you're like, oh, this is a true group, like.

• 1:05:43Lewis Howes?

  This is a good moment. It's a good feeling.

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:05:46Lewis Howes?

  Did you feel loved as a kid? Did you feel like you had good community and connections and friends and family that you felt loved?

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I objectively did have good community and good family. And, you know, it was like raised in a comfortable, safe environment. Like basically it's all should have been fine, but I don't know if I necessarily felt loved.

• 1:06:02Lewis Howes?

  Really? Who influenced you more, mom or dad?

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  It's hard to say. In, um, I mean, it's hard to say because my dad died when I was nineteen and so,

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  you know, it's, it's like hard to remember. A lot of ways, I'd say like in terms of worldview and things now, it's like, seems clear that I'm more like my mother, maybe, but it's also because I don't know my father as well, because, you know, I never got to know him as an adult. But, um, but in some of the very obvious ways, my father had a bigger influence because he was the one who actually took me to the climbing gym all the time and like drove me to youth competitions. And he wasn't a climber, but he just, you know, it's kind of like being a little, little league dad or something. He was just supportive.

• 1:06:43Lewis Howes?

  So he was really supportive? He showed up to your, he took you to all the events?

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he was.

• 1:06:48Lewis Howes?

  Encouraged you.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  He was really, uh, what are, what are, uh, love languages and things? You know, he was really good with time, like he was happy to like give time to things. But not even necessarily quality, because quality time would be like, oh, you're really having a moment together. But I just mean like the showing up and like doing the thing for you, like maybe acts of service.

• 1:07:05Lewis Howes?

  Acts of service, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so he was like good at that kind of thing, which I think as a kid, you kind of take for granted because like, well, somebody has to take me to the gym. But now as an adult, I'm like, man, he took me to the gym a lot.

• 1:07:15Lewis Howes?

  A lot of time.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a lot of time at the climbing gym, you know, and especially for, I mean, he was like a middle aged professor who's like belaying me. He would climb a little bit, mostly just because I would need to rest every once in a while, so then he would like climb something because he's there.

• 1:07:29Lewis Howes?

  So he dedicated a lot of time, actually.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he would belay me like on four or five routes and then he would do one and then I would do like four or five and he would do one and, you know.

• 1:07:37Lewis Howes?

  It's pretty cool.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, it's exactly, and that's the kind of thing that now as an adult, I can see that like that's, that's a big thing on his part.

• 1:07:44Lewis Howes?

  He committed, yeah, he had a lot of commitment. What was the biggest lesson that your dad taught you?

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know, I mean, I think it's that, I think it's like the showing up is, is the most important thing in some ways.

• 1:07:53Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  Which I mean, in this, if we're really going deep on relationship stuff, I mean, this is a common. Point of contention in my marriage is that to me, actions are the most important thing. You know, my wife like wants more, more words of appreciation.

• 1:08:07Lewis Howes?

  Words of affirmation?

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, words of affirmation. Yeah, yeah, whatever. So I mean.

• 1:08:10Lewis Howes?

  That physical touch?

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think we both are fine with that, but like, I think she wants a little more like telling. And, and I think that doing is more important.

• 1:08:19Lewis Howes?

  The action.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna show up.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I'm like, anybody can say the right things, but doing the right things is hard.

• 1:08:24Lewis Howes?

  I think the same thing, man. I think, sorry, who's gonna commit and take the actions, you know?

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's, that's the cynic in me because I'm like, anyone can say, you know, like a good actor, you know, since we're in LA. It's like, you see all the billboards, like, any good actor could convince you that they just absolutely adore you. But it doesn't mean anything unless they actually show up and, and do the things.

• 1:08:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, do what they say they're gonna do.

• 1:08:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, like for years.

• 1:08:45Lewis Howes?

  Right, consistently.

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Lewis Howes?

  What do you wish you got to say to your dad that you never got to say? Is there anything?

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  Oh, it's hard to say. I mean, if we're really getting into it, I mean, my parents got divorced the year before he died. Basically, like when I graduated high school and they'd sort of been like staying together for the kids, which in retrospect was a terrible idea. And they should have gotten divorced when we were like seven.

• 1:09:04Lewis Howes?

  I know that.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  And so it's kind of, it's unfortunate because I felt like I never got to know him as a, as his own, like thriving adult. Because he was in this relationship, like basically their whole situation like didn't seem that healthy. And so now, you know, I'm like, oh, they should have just gotten divorced when we were kids.

• 1:09:23Lewis Howes?

  And both been happy.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then both been like happy, independent adults and we could have actually gotten to know them as real people. Instead of having this kind of like dour, you know, like non-person.

• 1:09:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Cause in the year that, after he got divorced, he was sort of starting to thrive in his own, you know, he was like half psyched on his own stuff and like doing his thing, but then he died. And so, you know, it's hard to really know him because.

• 1:09:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, because the things I hear from all my family members on his side of the family, you know, things like before I was born. So we're like, oh, that's really different than the person that I knew.

• 1:09:55Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Is there anything you wish you could have said to him that you didn't get to or?

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:10:00Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 1:10:02Speaker 01

  Man, last night, like, since we're gonna, last night, uh, one of my wife's really good friends, we listened to this really long audio message from her that, uh, she had just had a family member die. But she left this long audio message that is basically this very heartwarming story about how she had just crafted this long message to, to the family member, telling him how much they meant to them and blah, blah. And then basically the person was like dying the next day.

• 1:10:25Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  And, uh, and his, his daughter had the opportunity to like read this message to him before he died. And so, so this, this friend, you know, was incredibly, it was all like, I was like, man, this is a lot. It was like a straight up Hallmark cards.

• 1:10:38Lewis Howes?

  Deep.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was deep. I was like, wow. But I also, it's like, wow, that's kind of incredible because she was so much more at peace with the death, knowing that anything she ever possibly could have wanted to say, she managed to say to the person before they died and they died knowing everything that,

• 1:10:51Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  everything that they meant to, to this person, you know? I was like, oh, that was, my takeaway was like, man, if, you know, if you have any friends, like, you should just say the thing before.

• 1:11:04Lewis Howes?

  And that's why your wife wants words of affirmations?

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But at least when she does, she'll know that I was always there for her, you know?

• 1:11:11Lewis Howes?

  I didn't tell you how I felt, but I showed you my thoughts.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  That's exactly, exactly. I didn't tell you enough, but I did try to show you.

• 1:11:17Lewis Howes?

  But you just said right there, you should say to the people you care about.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  I know, I know. But it's, you know, yeah, it's harder to do.

• 1:11:26Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like that's one of your greatest, uh, mountains to climb right now is to actually step into that? Or is that just?

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Maybe. I mean, that's probably a big part of being a good dad, so. But we're not quite there yet, thankfully, at this point.

• 1:11:38Lewis Howes?

  They're not old enough yet for the, to communicate that way.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Right now, the big challenge this morning, the diaper I changed had poop going all the way up the back through multiple layers of clothing.

• 1:11:48Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  And destroyed everything. Not destroyed, but.

• 1:11:51Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. It sprayed everywhere.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. But then trying to take off the dirty shirts, you know, you usually get poop in the hair, you get poop in everywhere. I was like, this is, this is, yeah.

• 1:11:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow, man.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Parenting is at a different phase right now. It's like poop everywhere.

• 1:12:04Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure you'll look back at the memory and it'll be better than the moment, but we were talking about before we started rolling about your biggest challenge. And you were kind of mentioning like right now, and you were kind of mentioning what to do when you were underperforming and you said you feel like you're failing a lot or not living up to an expectation.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, not necessarily failing, but yeah, just not performing at the level that you think you should.

• 1:12:30Lewis Howes?

  So why do you think that's happening in your life right now?

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  It's hard to say. I mean.

• 1:12:37Lewis Howes?

  And your failure is still like the greatest in the world at what you're doing.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  No, not the greatest in the world, but I'd say my sucking is still, you know, pretty good, but it's way worse than what I think it should be.

• 1:12:48Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  You know, it's hard to know.

• 1:12:50Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think that's happening?

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  I don't know. No. I mean, it's a long, long sordid tale, you know? Like I did an expedition this summer where a partner and I bicycled 2,000 miles to Alaska and then climbed some mountains, but it was basically a two-month trip and, and, and over that, over the course of the trip, I kind of got grounded dust. Like I was, I was kind of worked and.

• 1:13:12Lewis Howes?

  You were worn out?

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like worn out and I just.

• 1:13:14Lewis Howes?

  Those are miles, that's a long time.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he was doing well and for whatever reason though, I just wasn't really recovering and like was kind of like getting worse and worse. You know, typically with a lot of exercise, if you get enough rest, you know, you respond to it and you get better and better.

• 1:13:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  In this case, I was kind of just getting worse the whole time. And then I came back and was kind of sucking for a month or two, but that was kind of understandable because I was like, I'm digging back out of this hole. And, and the expedition was successful, you know, we did the things we were trying to do and it was cool and it'll be a film on, for National Geographic as well. And so, you know, it's like, it's fine. Like I don't mind having a trip like that where you get grounded dust if you do the things that you set out to do. And then I don't mind spending some time recovering, like that's totally understandable. But I spent the time recovering and then, and then since then I've just never quite, you know, I keep having like moments where I feel about as good as I think I should be and then it kind of disappears again and I keep having glimpses of like.

• 1:14:05Lewis Howes?

  Like physically or mentally or?

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, physically.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  But I feel like the mental side follows the physical as a professional athlete especially because if you just can't do the thing that you want to do. You know, me even doing like a podcast like this is like basically, you know, it's the school of greatness. But what if you're not great? Then then what do you do? Should I just like walk out?

• 1:14:22Lewis Howes?

  Right, should I just give up?

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, because for the last couple of weeks I haven't been that great or like last couple of months I haven't been that great. So I'm like, should I just go?

• 1:14:29Lewis Howes?

  Right, I've had I've had those seasons where I'm just like tired or maybe I've just worked too hard. And I feel like I'm not able to be as present or at the top of my game. But I was telling you before, yesterday was our 11 year anniversary of the show where every week for 11 years, the show has come out.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  That is, that is impressive consistency.

• 1:14:49Lewis Howes?

  And you've been doing this for 20 plus years. It's like you're not always going to win every game or be the best every time, every climb or every interview. It's not always going to be my greatest performance, but I think the consistency over time is a level of greatness. Even if you didn't want to do it that day, even if it was a subpar performance.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  But well, so that's the whole tough thing as a self coached climber is that. So I agree consistency and just showing up and that's normally my approach for for training and things like even on the days where you kind of suck. Like you just grind out the, but if you're digging yourself into a hole, you have to know when to put down the shovel and like get out of the hole.

• 1:15:29Lewis Howes?

  True, or rest.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And that's the challenge when when you're like, am I sucking because I need more rest? Or am I sucking because I need to train harder? And you just don't know which path you need to take and they're totally divergent paths that lead to totally different things. And so I think that recently I've been sort of on the, I've been doing a little bit of both, you know, and maybe not quite nailing either. And I'm not sure which is the right.

• 1:15:52Lewis Howes?

  So you'll spend a couple of weeks training harder and you're like, that's not working. Let me take a week to relax, recover more. That's not working.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a little bit of both, yeah. Like, you know, we're like training more, but then the whole family got sick and like the baby's sick and you're out in the middle of the night. And then you're sort of like, well, that winds up being like a week or two of rest as it turns out, like quote unquote rest.

• 1:16:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  But like not heavy training load. And then you're sort of like, well, now I'm doing both of them poorly. Like, I don't know which is better.

• 1:16:17Lewis Howes?

  I'm not really recovering and I'm not really double training.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  And then baby number two shows up kind of soon. And so then you're just, I'm just going to assume that that's not going to help.

• 1:16:25Lewis Howes?

  You're not doing either again.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But in a way, I mean, I'm not that stressed because I know long term like. This time next year, I'll probably be climbing pretty well and and or at least climbing the same. Like I'm I'm not too stressed in the long term. But it's just slightly frustrating when you want to, when you feel like you could be doing better and you're not sure why, why you're not there.

• 1:16:46Lewis Howes?

  So in a, in a year and a half, two years, you'll be, you'll be 40, right?

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm 38, so yeah, in two years.

• 1:16:53Lewis Howes?

  You'll have a, you know, a two-year-old and a four-year-old essentially. Um, maybe another, I don't know, but you'll have at least two.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  I don't think so. Yeah, yeah, we'll have two daughters.

• 1:17:03Lewis Howes?

  And you will have lived 40 years of your life and you will have accomplished so many incredible things that most climbers will never accomplish ever.

• 1:17:13Lewis Howes?

  What do you feel like the, the next 10 years will be? If you could go into the future and think about the vision you might have, what do you see your life looking like?

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  Well, this is, I mean, this is an interesting question and I've been thinking about this a little bit because I think this is, I mean, I want to keep doing things that I'm proud of in climbing and partially because I want my daughters to know someone who's proud of the things that they're doing and not proud of the things that they did. You know what I mean? It's like kind of a subtle distinction.

• 1:17:40Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  But I don't want my daughters growing up with somebody who's like, oh, I used to do all these cool things. As opposed to like, I want them growing up with somebody who's excited to do cool things in the future and is like working on projects and because I think that kind of motivation, that that excitement to like work on projects and like get up early and train and like have things that you're passionate about. I mean, I think that's important.

• 1:17:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  And that's certainly something that I'd love to pass on to my kids in like a healthy way, not like, not like a psycho pushing them away.

• 1:18:04Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:18:04Speaker 01

  But like in a way for them to see someone who's fired up and like living their best life. And so, you know, I mean, I am very proud of all the things that I've done. But I think it's important to have just as many things that I want to do in the future because I think that's hopefully part of parenting. You know, like within reason, like I don't need something all encompassing like a cap, let's say, because that would probably take me away from family too much. But I can have goals that I am passionate about, that I try very hard for and that, that I can still be around my family enough.

• 1:18:32Lewis Howes?

  Sure. Do you have anything on your mind of what that will look like?

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Not, I don't know, nothing big right now. I mean, this year I have a couple sort of like climbing travel, like destination goals where like my family and I will go to a place and climb for a while. But they aren't like objectives in terms of performance. It's more like to go to a place together and like have a good time climbing.

• 1:18:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  Um, like hopefully be able to do something cool while I'm in the places, but, but it's not like, uh,

• 1:18:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  It's not the main goal.

• 1:18:57Lewis Howes?

  Not performance thing, yeah.

• 1:18:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, but yeah, so in some ways I see this as sort of an in-between year. I mean, and also in the big picture, if I'm kind of like, oh, the five year, the first five years of my children's life, I was a little underproductive as a climber. I'm like, that doesn't seem crazy.

• 1:19:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  Like, that's fine. And as long as I think that I can come out of that again at some point. Like if you just told me, you know, you will underperform for five years while you raise your kids at the beginning, I'd be like, that's totally fine. It'd be like going to college or something where you're like, okay, well, I'm going through this phase of life because I know it'll set me up better for the future. Like, because I know I want a family long-term.

• 1:19:33Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:35Speaker 01

  But I, I just want to know that I'll be okay again eventually.

• 1:19:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you could go back and do, do these things again.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, I don't mind the grinding and training and like all that stuff if I think that eventually it'll, it'll pay off or like it'll, it'll work.

• 1:19:47Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  You know, but I think that the challenge is when you start second guessing, like, is this the wrong path? Like, am I doing this all wrong? This is a waste of my time.

• 1:19:54Lewis Howes?

  Tell me about Arctic Ascent because the trailer of this thing is, just blew me away. Tell me what the expedition is, was, and you know, what we should look forward to as we watch this series.

• 1:20:07Speaker 01

  Yes, Arctic Ascent is a, is yeah, a three-part series on National Geographic, um, comes out soon. And it was an expedition to Greenland, a six-week trip to Greenland, to a remote part of eastern Greenland. And it's sort of an interesting combination of, of climbing adventure. We went and we climbed these two cool walls, one of which was a 4,000-foot sea cliff, like sticking straight out of the ocean. It was kind of insane.

• 1:20:31Lewis Howes?

  So you have to take a boat to get to the actual?

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, you take a boat to the base, you hop out of the boat, and then you climb 4,000 feet straight out of the fjord. It's pretty cool.

• 1:20:37Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd never done anything like that either. It was, uh,

• 1:20:40Lewis Howes?

  How cold is it?

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  It's pretty freaking chilly. It was a north-facing wall in Greenland, so it wasn't, it wasn't warm.

• 1:20:46Lewis Howes?

  Winds are just blowing up against you, the waves are crashing against the wall.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  Well, the waves are crashing into the wall 4,000 feet below you.

• 1:20:52Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy, man.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really far. Yeah, so it's like bigger now, cat, bigger than, you know, it's a big, big wall.

• 1:20:58Lewis Howes?

  So no one had ever climbed it?

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Not that wall, no. Which is, yeah.

• 1:21:02Lewis Howes?

  That's part of the, the excitement for you to go try something that no one had ever tried.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's, it's probably one of the biggest unclimbed rock walls in the world like that. Cause there aren't that many 4,000 foot vertical walls. But, I mean, as you can imagine.

• 1:21:17Lewis Howes?

  So, I mean, how do you prepare mentally and emotionally for something that you've never done and no one else has ever done?

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Well, I have done a lot of other first ascents and I have climbed a lot of other mountains and I've climbed things of similar size and scale in different places. And so, you know, it's true that it's the first ascent I was ever climbed that rock. And as it turns out, that rock posed some unique challenges that I'd never quite encountered before. I had like this crazy swirly rock that varied in quality and it was actually, uh, it turned out it was pretty hard. But, um, but you know, you just draw on all your experiences having done other things that are somewhat similar. And in that case, you also have a team. And so you're also drawing on the experiences of the team and, and the team members were also incredibly skilled professional climbers. And so, you know, between everybody, you assume that somebody has what it takes.

• 1:22:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:22:07Speaker 01

  Or at least the team has what it takes.

• 1:22:09Lewis Howes?

  Do you think you could do it with, alone without, I mean, maybe having the support of people with ropes or whatever, but without other rock climber professionals kind of coaching and working with you, could you have done it alone?

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  Maybe, but it'd be harder and it'd be less fun and it'd be, you know, it wouldn't be the experience that you want necessarily.

• 1:22:27Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  It'd be a lot harder because sharing the psychological burden is a, is a big part of it.

• 1:22:31Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  Because when you're looking up at a 4,000 foot wall and you're not sure if it goes, like every move is, is uncertain. You know, we're like, am I going the right way? Am I, and so it's nice to be able to share that uncertainty with other people and like let them think about it a little bit, let them make some decisions like trust them to take the lead for a while and just take the rope up higher and then you can take over again.

• 1:22:51Lewis Howes?

  So you'll pass the lead is what you're saying?

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you alternate leads. And so it, it allows you to relax while the other person's leading. So in this case, on that particular climb, I was mostly climbing with this woman Hazel Finley, who's a British climber, who's a professional climber, very, very good at that kind of thing. And so whenever she's leading, it allows me to totally relax and sort of recover and eat and drink and chill.

• 1:23:11Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  And she's incredibly stressed because she's leading and trying to figure out how to stay safe and where we should go and like what direction. But while she's stressing, you can just sit down there being like, ah.

• 1:23:20Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:21Lewis Howes?

  You mean you're like, you're hooked in, you're just kind of dangling?

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm hooked in and I'm feeding the rope out to her. I'm like, I'm belaying, I'm holding on the ropes, I'm like protecting her. But I'm also sort of eating, drinking and relaxing. And then just like watching the icebergs go by in the fjord, you know, it's like you're just chilling. Because the thing is, as soon as she finishes her section of the climb and secures the rope, then she brings you up and then it's your turn to lead again.

• 1:23:42Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  And then when you're leading, it's suddenly stressful because you're like, should I go left? Should I go right? Like, left looks more dangerous, but right looks like it might get blank. And then we'd have to backtrack and, you know, you're constantly like making all these route finding decisions of like, which way it looks harder, which way it looks easier. But you're always dealing with incomplete set of information because no one's been there, so nobody knows. So you look up and you're like, well, it looks easy, but what if it isn't? Like, then you're screwed.

• 1:24:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow. How long, how long did that whole climb take?

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  Well, that particular 4000 wall only took 10 days or so of the trip. But that's partially because we were just sort of cramming it in at the end.

• 1:24:18Lewis Howes?

  So climbing it took 10 days?

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  No, like we pushed the ropes higher up and it rained a lot and it was crazy. And then the, the final ascent took us two days, but it's because we'd already gone halfway up the wall. And so it was.

• 1:24:29Lewis Howes?

  So you're sleeping on the wall?

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, sleeping on the wall.

• 1:24:31Lewis Howes?

  So you're on the wall for 10 days?

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  No, we were at a base camp like nearby.

• 1:24:36Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  And then we were on the wall for two.

• 1:24:37Lewis Howes?

  Okay, gotcha.

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Like, we'd been pushing higher and higher up the wall and then finally like we did the whole thing in two days.

• 1:24:42Lewis Howes?

  So you push up, then come back down, base camp, push a little higher?

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  And part of that's the nature of filming and everything to make a TV show is that you kind of have to do things like that to make sure that the camera people can be in position and things.

• 1:24:53Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  But, but that trip though was a six week expedition and we'd climbed this other wall where we also camped on the wall. And we ski traversed across this ice cap and we did a bunch of science. And, I mean, when you're talking about, you know, purpose and things like that, I mean, in some ways this expedition is, is exactly that evolution because we had this scientist Heidi Sylvester, who's amazing. She's this really passionate glaciologist, she's French. And so she was there doing a bunch of science experiments for, for different universities around the world, basically all like sort of climate science, like glaciology related.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Because Greenland is one of the most important places in the world for for climate change. And, you know, it's that's the kind of thing that makes a trip like that feel a little bit more worthwhile.

• 1:25:37Lewis Howes?

  It's not just you going after some adventure, but it's you working on research that you care about.

• 1:25:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and working on something that actually matters for the world. You know, it's like, I can make a show where it's like, oh, we're just climbing this extreme rock. And you're like, that's cool. But realistically, I'd rather just do that by myself and not make a show about it. You know, it's like, if you're going to put something on television, it may as well be somewhat useful. And it may as well, you know, highlight important parts of the world and and bring knowledge around things that matter. And so, you know, the Greenland ice sheet is melting. The ice sheet is the big part in the middle. Like, when you look at a map of Greenland, it's like the whole center of Greenland is ice. And if the Greenland ice sheet melts, you know, raises sea levels by something like 20 feet, which affects hundreds of million people around the world. It's like, you know, half the major cities in the world are on the coast.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, New York and like one in Tokyo, like all these places go underwater. Buenos Aires, I don't know. And so, and but nobody thinks about Greenland, you know, like, nobody thinks about the Greenland ice sheet.

• 1:26:37Lewis Howes?

  Not many people live there, too.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, nobody lives there.

• 1:26:40Lewis Howes?

  I mean, in Greenland, some people live on the.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but even Greenland, like so few people live in Greenland.

• 1:26:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I think that in some ways that makes a trip like that feel a lot more worthwhile.

• 1:26:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's cool. And that's part of your foundation, too, right?

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  Well, the work my foundation is doing is unrelated to something like this expedition. But yeah, I have a foundation that supports solar projects around the world and has been doing so for the last decade or so.

• 1:27:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow, that's cool. What made you want to get into that?

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  Same idea, just trying to do something useful.

• 1:27:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Just feeling like like climbing is fun and I love doing it. But ultimately, climbing is just for you or, you know, just for me, it's like.

• 1:27:19Lewis Howes?

  It's like a selfish endeavor in some sense.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Or it's a personal, like, yeah, people always say climbing is selfish, like climbers like to say, like, climbing is selfish. And I don't, I don't really love that because it's like any human activity is sort of selfish.

• 1:27:31Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Or most human activities are. But yeah, climbing is generally a self-driven pursuit.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  And it's nice to do something slightly more useful in the world.

• 1:27:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  And with the foundation, it kind of came about because. You know, and I'm sure you can relate to being given all kinds of interesting opportunities that are fun and you don't want to turn them down. But you also don't totally need them because your livelihood is already made. I was living in a van. I'm totally comfortable. I'm doing the things I want to do. I'm having a great time. I'm living my best life. And if somebody offers you like a TV commercial thing and you're like, I'd like to do it. It's fun. It's crazy money for like doing almost no work. But you're kind of like, why do that if you don't need to? And the foundation was a nice way to say yes to the fun opportunities, but then use that for something useful in the world.

• 1:28:18Lewis Howes?

  Well, that's cool.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  And so.

• 1:28:21Lewis Howes?

  How long were you living in the van for?

• 1:28:23Speaker 01

  Like 15 years or something.

• 1:28:25Lewis Howes?

  15 years.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  I lived in this really small Ford Econoline for like a van you can't stand up in for nine years, I think. And then I lived in a Dodge Pro Master for another five-ish or six-ish.

• 1:28:36Lewis Howes?

  How much was the, those two cars?

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  How much did they cost?

• 1:28:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  The first one, I think was a, I think it was 10 grand.

• 1:28:43Lewis Howes?

  10 grand. You lived in that for nine years?

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so.

• 1:28:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  It was crazy. And then the first one, I went through three different build outs in it. And the first build out, my uncle and I did with Brandon Woody had around a shop that was just left over. So literally the van costs, you know, yeah, 10 grand. And then I lived in it for several years. And then I redid the interior a couple of times as I got a little more.

• 1:29:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow, yeah. You got a couple of dollars here and there.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. So I spent another like five grand redoing the interior. Yeah, it was big, big money. And then the second time I splurged buying a new Pro Master, a van that I can stand in.

• 1:29:14Lewis Howes?

  Like nice with like a little like faucet or like a bathroom?

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. So the van was just new and nice. And that was like 30K or something. And then the build out was probably, I don't know, another 10 or 20.

• 1:29:25Lewis Howes?

  So how long did you live in that one?

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  Another five, six years.

• 1:29:28Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  And then that one, I would have kept living in, but I actually crashed it sadly. I rolled it. It was a total botch. And then, but then coincidentally, we found out that my wife was pregnant right after that. So we were kind of like, well, we need something different anyway, because it doesn't have any seats.

• 1:29:43Lewis Howes?

  So what did you get, a bus?

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  No. Now we, now we have a longer van.

• 1:29:47Lewis Howes?

  A longer van?

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, still, still like a van that you can camp in, but.

• 1:29:51Lewis Howes?

  With your daughter?

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we've camped with her. Several months.

• 1:29:55Lewis Howes?

  You live in the van still or do you?

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  No, we live in a house, but now we go to Yosemite for a month or two every year.

• 1:30:00Lewis Howes?

  With the with the van.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  With the family, with the babies.

• 1:30:03Lewis Howes?

  Wow. So you've upgraded to a house?

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I live in a house and then and also we've upgraded the van.

• 1:30:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, both, yeah.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  Now it has kids' seats.

• 1:30:11Lewis Howes?

  So fifteen years, man, in a van almost.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:15Lewis Howes?

  But by choice, because you were like, I want to be able to travel, I want to be remote, I don't want to have a lot of possessions.

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe it was like twelve or thirteen really like in the van, because we bought the house at one. It's been a steady transition where we're in the house more. I mean, especially with kids now.

• 1:30:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course. Wow.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  Though I wouldn't be surprised if as the kids grow up a little bit, we can be in the van more again.

• 1:30:34Lewis Howes?

  That's cool, man.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  But having infants, it's like it's just having the routine and nap time is just easier with a house.

• 1:30:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What's the greatest lesson you learned living in a van for twelve years?

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  That you just don't need that much stuff.

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  I mean, I think that's the main thing is like, you just don't need stuff. I mean, you want to do whatever you want to do in your life. Just focus on doing that thing and you don't need any of the extra stuff. I mean, I still have that problem with my wife all the time. It's like she has decorations and things. I'm like, why does this exist? Like, what is this? You know, like a throw pillow.

• 1:31:07Lewis Howes?

  We don't need it.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  It's called a throw pillow because you throw it in the trash. Like, you don't use it for anything. It just like decorative pillows drive me insane. Like, stuff that doesn't have any function.

• 1:31:16Lewis Howes?

  No value.

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  Not even just value, but if you don't use it all the time, like I just don't want to be a slave to my stuff. Like, you don't want to be like moving your stuff around. You know, the thing about living in a van is that you have very few things and it's all the stuff that you need. Like, it's only in the van because you use it all the time.

• 1:31:32Lewis Howes?

  You spend your time on the things you want to do and not, I guess, managing things and stuff.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just like a simpler lifestyle that's devoted entirely to the thing that you want to do. I mean, the thing with being in a van is that it is fundamentally uncomfortable. You know, like you don't have a shower, you don't have a bathroom, you don't have whatever. And so it is harder living and it's like colder, you're more exposed to the elements. It's like you're living in a box, parked on the side of the road a lot of the time. So it's not that comfortable. But it means that you're totally focused on whatever you're in the van for. You know, it's like either you're there to go hiking or to go backpacking. You know, in my case, I'm always there to go climbing. But it's like, you're there to climb, so you climb. You know, like on rest days, you go scrambling because it's like there's not that much to do in your van.

• 1:32:14Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  It's like you just wind up being totally focused on the thing that you're doing.

• 1:32:18Lewis Howes?

  Wow. That's cool, man. It's a cool lifestyle.

• 1:32:22Speaker 01

  It's a very intentional lifestyle.

• 1:32:23Lewis Howes?

  Very intentional.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  And I think that that kind of intention can be brought to normal life.

• 1:32:27Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely, yeah. Well, we can watch the show. It's Nat Geo launching February 4th on Disney Plus, right? Arctic Ascent with Alex Honnold. And I'm excited for this, man. The trailer, again, looks incredible. So, congrats on this. It's gonna be a lot of fun. How else can we support you or follow you besides checking out the show and checking out your foundation?

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you can go to honnelfoundation.org, see the work that my foundation's doing with solar projects around the world. I mean, anybody can follow me on any social platform, just Alex Honnold.

• 1:33:01Lewis Howes?

  I've got a couple of final questions for you, but this has been inspiring, so I appreciate your time, Alex. This is a question I ask everyone at the end of my interviews called the three truths. It's a hypothetical question. Imagine you get to live as long as you want to live, but it's the last day. You've accomplished everything, you've experienced life, you've learned to, you know, share words of affirmation with your wife eventually.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  So I've lived to 750.

• 1:33:28Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  It's taken a while.

• 1:33:30Lewis Howes?

  Everything you want to create, you know, you've lived a great life from this moment until the end of time. But it's the last day for you, and for whatever reason, you have to take everything you've ever created with you. So this interview, gone. The books you write, the movies you've been in, anything. All the social media posts that you love putting out there, they're gone. However, you do get to leave behind three things. Three lessons that you leave to the world. I like to call it three truths. What would those three truths be for you, do you think?

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Man.

• 1:34:01Lewis Howes?

  This is all we would have to remember you by.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  I just don't, I think, I think if I was at the end of my life and I was content, I would just go. I don't know if I'd have any truths. So I think if you wipe the rest of the slate clean, it's just like, I just don't think that. I mean, to me, I think that the whole.

• 1:34:17Lewis Howes?

  But if people had, they wanted to remember you by something and they could only remember three things that you learned and experienced, and you were able to share those things. What would those three things be, do you think?

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Just go big with an exclamation. I use that as a, I sign things that way whenever you, when you have to like sign things at events. But it's kind of also one of my favorite things now, just go big. And it's like, go for it. You know, you can sort of take whatever lesson you want from it, but it's like, do the thing, you know, like, try.

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  But I think that also that's that just sums up so much of my scene is go big.

• 1:34:51Lewis Howes?

  Go big. One truth.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's my one truth.

• 1:34:54Lewis Howes?

  Go big. Okay.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  I kind of think so because I just think to to get into other truths requires too much nuance and subtlety and like, you know, the richness of a life. And I just don't know if you can distill that down to it. Just be like that. If everything else is being wiped, you just step away and you're just gone. That's fine.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  But this goes back to everyone's replaceable. You know, I'm like, if my whole life gets erased, like there'll be somebody else leading an awesome life. You know, like all the things that I've learned from climbing, somebody else could learn from unicycling or whatever other activity. You know, it's like, I think that human lives in many ways are sort of interchangeable. You know, like, we can all learn how to lead good lives in different ways. You know, like somebody can devote their entire life for their garden and still learn all the same things that I have in my life. But like experiencing hardship and trying hard and like overcoming and persevering, like anybody can learn that however.

• 1:35:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  Sort of like, I don't know.

• 1:35:49Lewis Howes?

  What would be one extra thing you would leave behind for your for your daughters?

• 1:35:54Lewis Howes?

  If you could share a truth with them?

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  Daddy loves you.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  It's my, my, I don't know. I think that's probably the, I mean, if you're gonna leave your child one thing, that's probably the most important thing. Like you are loved, I guess.

• 1:36:08Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful, man. That's a good one.

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  Obviously.

• 1:36:11Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful, man.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  We'll see if I can manage that when when the time comes.

• 1:36:14Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man, that's beautiful.

• 1:36:17Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask the final question, Alex, I want to acknowledge you, man, for what a life you have lived and an intentional life on the things that you wanted to pursue and are still pursuing. But again, living a life in a van essentially for 12, 13 years, very intentional to pursue something you care about the most. I just want to acknowledge you for going big, like going for it and consistently going for it. But I also want to acknowledge you for allowing yourself to evolve at this new season of life. You know, having kids, raising a family, being in a relationship and allowing yourself to also evolve. Like you went, you've been going big, but you're also evolving with it as well.

• 1:36:59Lewis Howes?

  And I think it's really inspiring that people can have both love in their lives, relationships, but also be pursuing their dreams at the highest level, even if no one else has done that. So it's really cool what you've done and I just want to acknowledge you for that. For the chiseling off chorus.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  That's something actually that my wife has always pushed. You know, she's this this false contrast between like doing rad things and being in a good relationship, which I think you're often portrayed that way in in in media is like you can either be alone doing something rad or you can be in a happy relationship. My wife is always like, why don't you do the rad thing in a happy relationship?

• 1:37:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:35Speaker 01

  And and like basically from the very beginning of our relationship, she's always kind of been steadfast and like, why don't you just do something hard while being well adjusted in a good relationship? And it's funny because until until we got together, I was like, I was like, is that an option? I kind of thought you needed the angst and the turmoil and the like.

• 1:37:52Lewis Howes?

  Suffering.

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, the dark, like the dark artist. And now being with her, I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, I guess you can actually just have a really nice life and still do hard things, but just do it with a big smile. I'm like, it is kind of a better way to go.

• 1:38:05Lewis Howes?

  It's a way better way to go and support and friendship and collaboration and all that stuff. Final question, Alex, what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  I mean, I think I'd just go with this sort of standard definition of like doing hard things, like achieving things I haven't done before. And I mean, I know that I should take a more inclusive, you know, just like living a good life and all that. But I'm like, no, I think of greatness as as doing something challenging that hasn't been done before.

• 1:38:31Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple Podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness newsletter

• 1:39:15Lewis Howes?

  and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.