98 The Shocking Truth About Spirituality, Religion and Faith (and why we should care) with Krista Tippett

"The things that go wrong for you have a lot of potential to become part of your gift to the world." - Krista Tippett For show notes and to learn more about Krista Tippett, visit us at lewishowes.com/98 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is episode number 98 with Krista Tippett.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Speaker 00

  Welcome everyone to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I've got a very special guest on. Her name is Krista Tippett. And she is the host and executive producer of the show On Being. Now, if you haven't heard about this show, it's one of the top shows on iTunes as a podcast. It's usually in the top 50, if not in the top 30 ranking on iTunes consistently. And it's an incredible show. Now Krista is a Peabody Award winning broadcaster and New York Times bestselling author. In 2014, she received the National Humanities Medal at the White House for thoughtfully delving into the mysteries of human existence on the air and in print.

• 1:17Speaker 00

  She avoids easy answers, embracing complexity and inviting people of all faiths, no faith, and every background to join the conversation. In this interview, we talk about things that I've never talked about on the School of Greatness podcast. And I ask her a lot of questions that I have for myself about faith and human potential and experiences. And we dive into a lot. So I'm very excited for you guys to listen, to dive in and to join the conversation. So please make sure to go check out On Being, the podcast, and go check out all the show notes that we talk about over at lewishowes.com/98. So without further ado, let's go ahead and dive in with Krista Tippett.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness Podcast. I'm very excited about the wonderful woman that I have on today, Miss Krista Tippett. And what's going on Krista?

• 2:23Speaker 01

  Oh, not much. It's a beautiful early fall day here in Minnesota and we're in production as usual and I'm happy to talk to you here in the middle of my workday.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  Very cool. You know, I, we just talked a little bit before. I'm in LA right now, so I really miss the Midwest. I'm from Ohio during the fall. It's the best time of the year.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  It's lovely. Yeah.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  I can only imagine what the trees look like right now.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know, the light is good in Minnesota. People talk about the snow, but it's actually very sunny here.

• 2:51Speaker 00

  That's very good. It will get pretty cold though. I lived there for a while and it's miserable in the winter, so I'm not jealous.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  But there's some of the nicest people in the world are from Minnesota. So, very cool. Well, I first learned about you Krista from a friend of mine in Alabama. I was training with the USA national team down in Alabama in January and this year. And my friend said, you know, I really love your show. And I said, what are other podcasts you listen to? What do you really like? And she said, there's a show I really love called On Being. And that was the first time I heard about you. And I said, what is this On Being? And why is it so interesting? And how come you like it more than my show? You know, I was really interested. And since learning about you and connecting with you and listening to some episodes, I can see why she loved it and so many people love it around the world.

• 3:44Speaker 00

  And I just want to dive in and ask you really why? Originally, it started off as a different show. Isn't that correct?

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yes. I mean, it started off as a show called Speaking of Faith. I mean, I think it evolved into what it is now. It didn't, it's not like it was one show and then it was another. It's kind of like, this is what Speaking of Faith became. And I think that that also reflects how in this same decade, our whole cultural encounter with

• 4:15Speaker 01

  The spiritual, moral, religious part of life has been evolving. If that makes sense.

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I want to dive into religion and faith with you in a second. Because I think it's fascinating to discuss about it. But tell me about how you originally were going to launch this show. I think I read somewhere that you were going to get funding for the show on September 11th. Is that correct?

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think it was 10:30 a.m. on September 11th. I was supposed to have a meeting at the Pew Charitable Trust. And they did end up being one of the first major funders of the project. But you know, on that day, I was going there as much as anything else to put forth this argument that religion was a force in the world and that it deserved to be treated with an expansiveness and intelligence and imagination that was that I found to be missing in media at that time, even in public media. The meeting was canceled, but I think, you know, in a very tragic way, I didn't have to make that argument anymore that religion mattered.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Although at that point, then the argument became, well, religion is behind all the worst problems in the world. But you know, and that's what I would say to that is, well, if that's true, all the more reason that we have to find all kinds of new ways to grapple with this and speak about it together.

• 5:36Speaker 00

  Now, you know, it's interesting you mention that because I grew up in a religion called Christian Science. I don't know if you've ever heard of Christian Scientists.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 5:44Speaker 00

  And the more, you know, I was very confused learning as I was growing up, just because I was coming into my body, I had these physical sensations and it talked about, you know, that were all spiritual ideas. And so I was just always conflicted of like what I felt was reality versus what the religion and other religions teach. And, you know, you mentioned that that religion is a major cause of a lot of the major problems in the world. Probably, would you argue that, would you agree that it's the number one cause for the wars that are created as well?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  No, I would not. I mean, you know, I think you could make the same sweeping statement about politics. You know, somehow, politics is at the source of all the worst problems in the world. These are all tools in the hands of human beings, and we are flawed. You know, religion is a particularly revealing canvas for the whole sweep of the human condition, which includes a lot of darkness, as well as a lot of beauty and possibility. And so, when we pour our aspirations into our religious identities, you know, whether positive or negative, they really get amplified. And there's a real power to throwing ourselves around in those containers.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  Interesting. So, you were raised in a specific religion, and then you've now transitioned to a different religion. Is that right?

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was raised Southern Baptist. I grew up in a small town in Oklahoma. And I was raised, maybe like you, you know, it was a tradition that really defined the culture of my childhood, as much as a place that you went to once a week. And then I went away to college on the East Coast, and that whole culture fell away. And I spent about 10 years, just, I think, like a lot of people, it just that tradition of my childhood didn't seem very relevant to life or to this large world I was discovering. You know, I did come back to a different, well, I came back to an interest in religion, in human life writ large, and in the world, that led me eventually to be doing this work I'm doing.

• 7:47Speaker 01

  And I did also come back to a, I mean, I have my own spiritual sensibility that keeps changing as I change, you know. It's really not, it's not static at all. But there's a personal experience I have is not to be confused or like strictly identified with the work I do in the show, which I also do as a journalist, and, you know, as a citizen, and as a person who loves questions.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, you have great questions. What do you think is the difference between religion and spirituality, then?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Well, I've had a lot of different answers to that question over the years. I actually think they are often more entwined and inseparable than we think they are. Although, in the course of a, of a, of a single life, there may be all kinds of different ways we put those things together. I mean, you know, you can talk about spirituality as the, the essence, the core truths, the, the animating impulses, and, and I think also the animating questions and longings that actually gave rise to our traditions, you know, those questions of meaning and purpose and moral imagination. But I, you know, I also want to say, I think, I think, I think it's absolutely possible to have a spiritual life in the absence of any kind of religion or any kind of belief

• 9:04Speaker 01

  in God, and I think many people do. However, our religious traditions are these, uh, containers, you know, that are, and, and, and they, they carry all of our, all of our flaws and our failings and our capacities, right? So, but, but, but religions are these containers that have plumbed these questions and these longings, that have developed, you know, great, uh, bodies of thought around them, that have developed rituals and practices of community and vocabularies and virtues. And I think that often when people go on a spiritual search, you know, even if they maybe don't come back to some strong identity, they do, they do end up picking up some of these things again.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  So, you know, so I say, as I say, I do think there's a symbiotic relationship.

• 9:53Speaker 00

  Now, how many religions are there in the world, do you know?

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, I don't know. I don't know. Endless. I really do think that.

• 10:01Speaker 00

  Thousands?

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Well, I think that this, this thing, whether you call it faith or religion or spirituality, I really think it happens one life at a time, and there are as many variations on this as there are of us. I really, I really think that's the way it works.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  This is, I mean, isn't there really one energy, one God? So why do there need to be thousands of religions?

• 10:23Speaker 01

  So I don't know the answer to that question. It may be true, but if it is true, I still think that that the principle of biodiversity applies to the vitality of God and the vitality of our understanding of God. You know, if indeed we're really talking about one thing, one source, I still think we may need this variety of words and text, you know, and creative, you know, arts and images and practices and virtues. I mean, I come back to these things rituals. I think we may need all of these ways that we've developed as human beings to reach towards

• 11:04Speaker 01

  that thing, that presence, whatever it is, to even, you know, to begin to be able to take that seriously.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  So what is the religion that you're practicing in now?

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Well, I guess I say I'm Episcopalian now, although I'm not, I'm not an especially active Episcopalian at the moment. And

• 11:25Speaker 00

  What's that mean not active? Does that mean not believing?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  What means like right?

• 11:29Speaker 00

  Not going to church?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Well, it means right now I don't go to church.

• 11:32Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Or, yeah, I suspect that I will go to church again. I mean, I, you know, to me, the church part of it is about community.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  I think I will want that. I mean, you know, but in this, I think I'm just like so many other people. On the other hand, I, you know, something I end up talking about in my interviews a lot is how we're living in this historic moment where we're really reinventing every institution, every discipline, you know, we're reinventing medicine and we're going to be reinventing education and we're reinventing the economy. And likewise, religious institutions, the way they've come into the 21st century, really don't make a lot of sense. I mean, really, even just the basic structures and forms. And there are all kinds of profound ways we could talk about them not making sense, but it's also things like, you know, where is it in the Bible that church is at 10 a.m. on Sunday morning?

• 12:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  You know, which actually just doesn't fit in a lot of our lives.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  So I think I'm caught in this, in these kinds, this kind of flux, just like everybody else.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  So would you say you take more the inspired word of the Bible or the literal word?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  You know, I don't think anybody's asked me that question, or at least that way for a while. I would say a couple of things. I take language really seriously. I take text seriously and the power of words and also the power of stories. And, you know, in that sense, I have a reverence for sacred text and what it, again, has carried forward in time, what it works in us. I think that in modernity, you know, this whole idea of literal reading of the Bible is pretty new, right? So even the church fathers, if you just look at Christianity, the church fathers, you know,

• 13:19Speaker 01

  in the fourth century, who kind of solidified a lot of the things we think of as doctrine now, had, you know, they were much more concerned about reading the text in terms of the way the text was written. No, Genesis one was not written as a scientific textbook. Genesis one was not written to answer the question, the scientific question of how the world came to be. It was answering different questions. So, you know, I would say I take the text very seriously. You might even say, you know, in some ways, kind of in an orthodox way, but that is, it's not for me at all the same thing as taking it literally. A lot of sacred text is poetry, you know? And there's a different thing.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Truth is told differently in a piece of prose and in a piece of poetry. It's still truth. And a lot of the truth that's in the Bible and that's in other sacred texts is more like poetry than it is like an opinion piece in the New York Times. But we tend to argue about it like it's an opinion piece in the New York Times.

• 14:20Speaker 00

  Well, what would you say to someone who has the question, how do we know what's written in the Bible is actually what was said then? Or how do we, how come it's not someone that's just made it up? A group of people that just made it up to create some type of rules or structure for humanity? How do we know that's actually what was said over the thousands of years of it being translated? And that we should take it so seriously? You know, when I get a conver, when someone tells me something about what happened in their day and I tell someone else, it's already changed from my ears to another person. So how are we supposed to have the faith that it's the truth?

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Well, again, I think there's something about, so you know, as I said, I was a nonreligious person for a while. I was a very political person. I was living in divided Berlin and I was working on these great big world geopolitical issues. And I didn't think religion was very interesting or important. Then I went to, as I got interested in religion again, I went to study theology because I had to know that it could actually be as complicated and interesting and relevant as this world I had experienced. And I mean, I actually found that it was, I mean, you know, theology is this fabulous repository of human thinking about hard, huge

• 15:41Speaker 01

  questions. And, you know, one thing you start to learn when you become theologically educated is to read, let's say you're asking about the Bible, I mean, to read that in the spirit in which it was crafted, again, to look at the questions it was answering. And it's very rarely telling a story like, you know, like this is the truth, or this is what happened, right? It's very rarely that kind of historical account, or that's not the most important point that's being made. I mean, one thing, though, just to pull the lens back, is I

• 16:17Speaker 01

  would just say, I have some respect for any text that has survived, right, with some authority, and kind of been reborn to new generations for thousands and thousands of years. So I mean, that's one place I would start by saying, I don't know if this is true, or how it's true, but I'm gonna look at this, right? I'm gonna figure out what it is speaking to in human lives.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  With all the studies you've done on this, and all the interviews you've done over the years, is there a common theme between every religion you've studied about, that they all have something in common?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  That's a great question. And I actually don't, that's not a question I focus on very much. As I said, you know, my feeling is even if we're talking about one great big unity, I think we probably need all of our words and all of our ways of grappling with that to point at it. So I never start with similarities or things we have in common, but there is something kind of magical that happens. I mean, I talk to people out of the depths of their traditions and their knowledge. And then there is a magical thing that happens, talking to people out of their depths, where you just start to hear these echoes, right? You know, these really wonderful echoes and you really feel like you've walked into

• 17:42Speaker 01

  the realm of mystery when it comes up that way. I, and I, the words I would point at are not the words that I would have even thought of maybe 10 years ago. I think beauty is one. I think a reverence for beauty. And all my, beauty as a, as a moral value. You know, beauty as a litmus test. And not just, uh, not just aesthetic beauty, um, that too, but, you know, beautiful lives, which are often quiet lives and not necessarily famous lives, right? Not necessarily the lives that are good at self-promotion and getting all.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a reverence for mystery and surprise and the limitations of our knowledge, which is actually very liberating. You know, I think if you really take that in, a sense of mystery and kind of embrace it and take delight in it, which, you know, by the way, I think scientists do as well as theologians.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  Sure, yeah.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Then life becomes a discovery. And there's also a kind of, there's a humility that, that rises in you, that comes to define you, but also an adventurousness.

• 18:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  And you know, that to me, I mean, a religious life at its best has those qualities. Those are some of the things that come to mind.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  What's the biggest discovery you've found about yourself over the last 10 plus years of doing this work?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  You really are. You're really asking all the hard questions.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  Well, didn't you say you like asking those type of questions yourself?

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Um, okay, say that again.

• 19:22Speaker 00

  What's the biggest discovery?

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  You've learned about yourself over the last 10 years of this, this journey of, uh, this show?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Well,

• 19:32Speaker 00

  10 plus years, I should say.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's hard to separate the discoveries in the show with just the discoveries of living, right?

• 19:40Speaker 00

  Sure. Well, let's, let's say over the last-

• 19:43Speaker 01

  I'm in my early 50s now and I was in my early 40s when I started.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  So you already had a lot of experience.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, um, you know, I've raised two children.

• 19:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  I've gotten a divorce. I've just started a new company. You know, I mean, like, there are all these things that happen, um, that have flowed into my discovery of myself, but I think that what this life of conversation that I've had about these subjects, I, I mean, I don't know, this may surprise you, but I mean, I think, I think the most important thing that's come from having these conversations while I'm living these things is understanding that what is hard and what makes me feel fragile and where things are failing or threatened to fail, to kind of, to let that be, to, um, to not clamp down

• 20:38Speaker 01

  or insist on any kind of perfection, which actually just limits your possibilities. I mean, here's the thing. I've interviewed so many wise people.

• 20:48Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  And what I've learned from wise people is that the things that go wrong for you have a lot of potential to become like part of where you grow and part of your gift to the world, actually.

• 21:00Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  And we spend a lot of time in this culture, like hiding what's not perfect, you know, right?

• 21:06Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 21:07Speaker 01

  We never wear these things on our sleeve and we don't want to talk about them when we write them out of our CVs and, and you know, I've done that too, but kind of giving into the strangeness of life.

• 21:18Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  And letting that be defining, you know, there are words that are, that, that are in our traditions that are really not in American culture, like, uh, surrender.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  And

• 21:32Speaker 00

  Vulnerability.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Lamentation and vulnerability. And those are all part. I mean, I could use your word, right? Greatness does not come without some frank standing with those things and understanding them to be part of you, right? Not just forcing your way through it, but letting it form you as you walk through it and understanding that, you know, from that point forward, these too are part of your wholeness.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I definitely would agree to that point. Over the last couple of years, you know, I'm 31 and in my twenties, I thought I had it all figured out, when really my ego was in the way. And as I started to go through some emotional transitions and some roller coaster transitions, I started to do the work on myself and open up in a vulnerable way. And even through this show, I started opening up vulnerably and sharing things that I had never shared with anyone my entire life, that experiences I had as a child and things like that. What I realized is when I actually opened up and surrendered to my life and everything that's happened and that I've created, you know, good or seemingly bad, what I created

• 22:48Speaker 00

  was a space of connection and compassion with everyone else who was involved in the conversation. And I know, and I know you talk about, I mean, your TED Talk was on compassion.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 00

  And let's just go into that. What does it mean in terms of compassion? What does actually mean to you?

• 23:05Speaker 01

  You know, well, as I said in the TED Talk, I struggle with the word because we put a lot of these words up on pedestals. I mean, love is another one. They're just kind of ruined. Love, compassion, forgiveness, peace, justice.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  What do you mean ruined? They're not as sacred anymore? They're not as

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Oh, overuse them. We put them on Hallmark cards, you know? We, I mean, love, we just totally turn into this romantic sexual thing and, and don't think, talk about it as really this, you know, this. Complex experience of life that has all these manifestations, you know, takes all these forms and compassion, I think we associate with heroes with somebody like Nelson Mandela. You know, or the Dalai Lama.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  And, you know, I've met, I've interviewed the Dalai Lama, I've interviewed Desmond Tutu and the thing is even those people, just really touching back on what you just said, I mean, they, compassion is, is learned and gained and accumulated through what goes wrong for you. For, for everybody, for those people as well. So I like to break down a big virtue like that into component parts and more kind of, you know, everyday practices that we can all immediately aspire to, like, you know, things and moments, you know, kindness, that's also a hallmark card, so that's also a danger.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  But, you know, let's just, just think about kindness. I mean, kindness is actually one of these few things that any of us can do, just some moment of kindness to a stranger or to someone we love, that can be just instantaneously transformative, right?

• 24:39Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  You know, it can make your day, it can make their day. You couldn't write a, a grant report about the out, the long-term outcomes, you know, but you would, you would, you can think about those moments and they cha, they change something.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  In time and compassion, you know, compassion is, the, the word for compassion in both Hebrew and in, is, and in Arabic is related to the word for womb. It, it is essentially about seeing, not just seeing and not just intellectually understanding, but understanding, intuiting, feeling someone else's well-being as intricately linked to our own. You know, my resilience is linked to your resilience, my vulnerability is linked to your resilience, to your vulnerability.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  It's a big radical move that human beings have been able to make and it makes us, I think it makes us human.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  But it needs cultivation. It's again, you know, and when I think the problem is we put it up in a pedestal and we say, well, it's the Dalai Lama who's like that. And we don't realize that we grow in compassion. And this is, you know, the great things we're learning in neuroscience now about how we can actually really form our character, just like you can form yourself as an athlete by practicing, right? You can form your character and. And something like compassion and the little things that make you compassionate, you just start and you just practice it and then it does become instinctive.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I definitely agree. And to go along with, you know, everything you've been talking about here with kindness and compassion. What I've learned is that when we want something, when I want something, the best way to get it is to give it away first. You know, if I want love, you know, I give love to everyone else or give love to the person that I want to create that experience with. If I want people to be kind to me, then I get to be kind in every moment that I can. I get to smile and look people in the eyes and say something nice. I get to open the door for people. I get to do kindness. I get to be that. And, um, you know, whatever I want, I've got to give it away first. And I think that's interesting that you're talking about that.

• 26:47Speaker 01

  I also think I once had a conversation with Walter Brugman, who's a great, he's, he's really probably the greatest living scholar of the prophets. That, you know, this wonderful tradition of the prophets in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament. And I mentioned to him this fact that the word for compassion is linked to the word for womb. And he said, yes, and isn't that appropriate because it's so uncomfortable, right? Which I said, well, I know better than you do about that. And, but the point is also not to romanticize it, right? It, I mean, it's actually often not uncomfortable. It's often just, it's to let, you know, being kind, as you said, giving things away turns out to be.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  For, for some reason, it's not instinctive always, but it turns out to be a great experience often. But it's also just, it can just be gritty and it can just be practical. It can just be pragmatic.

• 27:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's interesting. When you talk about compassion, meaning womb, you're meaning compassion is supposed to be uncomfortable based on its meaning?

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Well, I think he just meant that, you know, you could look at that image and say, oh, isn't that beautiful? That the Hebrew and Arabic words are linked to compassion, motherhood, right? But, but the fact, uh, you know, giving birth is the most amazing, wonderful, and also one of the most painful experiences of human life. So you, you, you know, I just, I'm so committed to seeing, to talking about spirituality and religion in reality-based terms. Um, and three dimensionally.

• 28:20Speaker 00

  Do you think we can be happy without experiencing pain?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Well, it's such a hypothetical question. I mean, we will experience pain, right?

• 28:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  I remember talking once to Thich Nhat Hanh. Do you know who he is? He's an amazing, he's a Vietnamese Buddhist monk. And he was, he came out of the Vietnam War. He's really just one of the wisest people alive today. And he said to me, this Buddhist, Tibetan Buddhist, Zen Buddhist monk, that he wouldn't want to live, that he wouldn't want to go to heaven without, a place without suffering.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  Hmm, why?

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Because he does not believe that compassion would exist in a place without suffering.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  Interesting, hmm.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  It's always our teacher, right?

• 29:05Speaker 00

  It is, yeah. Well, how do we grow if it's just all puppies and hugs?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  So, gosh, that's just this huge puzzle of, you know, the cosmos. And if you start thinking about God, or, you know, I love, I talk to a lot of scientists and physicists who are not religious but are working in things like free will, you know, this, this puzzle of us. And I just choose to kind of find it fascinating and...

• 29:31Speaker 00

  What do you think happens when we die?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  I have no idea. I have no, I'm actually not that interested. I mean, you know, I'm very, I mean, I grew up Southern Baptist where there was so much emphasis, emphasis on what would happen when we died. And it so was supposed to be determinative of what we did when we lived. And I, I don't think that's a legitimate connection.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  I...

• 29:55Speaker 00

  Well, if you're not that interested, you don't have to answer. But I'm just curious based on your experience.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  I'll tell you, the image I work with actually comes from science, from Einstein, who said that, you know, he really broke open our understanding of time. And he said that our human sense of past, present, and future as this linear thing, you know, this arrow that's always moving one direction, is a stubbornly persistent illusion. And so, so, so his understanding of time, which I, which I believe is the, the reality of time, is not actually something, though, that our five senses can apprehend.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  So we're stuck with these bodies that tell us one thing and this, you know, that this is how we make sense of time as linear.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  But his understanding, and I don't really understand this, so it's a little bit presumptuous of me to explain it. But what I've internalized is that essentially it's kind of all happening at once.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  What time?

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, but his sense was, or his, no, his understanding was that we make an imprint, okay? So every, our lives are in their fullness, make an imprint in reality, in this thing we call time. And it's still there after we're gone, even if, even if we are not there in the physical sense. And I, I love, I love learning things like that because it's so kind of interestingly resonant with my grandfather's view of heaven, right? It's a different view, but I, I like the mystery of this and I just don't think we can know.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  That's interesting. You know, my father was a very extreme Christian scientist and he, and there's still lots of questions I have about religion. By no means would I say I'm well-educated on the topic or, you know, know even about the religion I grew up in that well. But he did some great things for my mindset, I would say. He never wore a watch. And he never allowed us children, I have three older siblings, to celebrate our birthdays. And as a child, you know, whenever my other friends were having birthdays, you know, you know, as a child, I was like, this sucks, you know?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  You were persecuted.

• 32:18Speaker 00

  I was like, I can't, you know, have a party and have, you know, I never had a birthday party. And maybe when I was like three or four, they like celebrated or something, but after I was like five, like there was never a cake. You know, my mom would try to like, you know, bring me some stuff every now and then and like say happy birthday. My siblings would be like, happy birthday, but it was never like a, a celebration. And it was confusing for me because I was like, why? When all my other friends have these parties that I would go to and then I didn't have anything. And, you know, growing up, I was really confused, but I kind of appreciate it because later he told me, you know, I never wanted you be to be limited by your age and by time.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  That's so interesting.

• 32:58Speaker 00

  I never wanted you to put those limitations on yourself where the majority of the world does. If you're too young, you can't do this. If you're too old, you can't do this, you know. There are so many limitations and I really valued, he was always, you know, even though he never had a watch, he was always on time and he was his word and he was, you know, great at those things, but it's like, he didn't want to focus on time as a limit, limiting belief for, for us. And I thought it was powerful.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  I think he has, he had a cosmic sensibility.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Um, so do you do a big deal with, of birthdays now?

• 33:34Speaker 00

  No, I've still never really had a party. I would think of, you know, I've had like one party. Um, and I just have a couple of friends that kind of like hang out on my birthday, but I'm, I appreciate and I celebrate my life, but I also try to say, you know, there, I don't want to limit myself based on another year of age.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. Who knows if it's great or not, but it's, it is what it is and it's allowing me to, you know, do what I've done. So.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 00

  You speak, you've been speaking about that we're all flawed human beings and I read you, you know, read a lot about this before where you're saying that. Why do you think it's a society, we're all so focused on being perfect then? Or striving for perfection, I should say?

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Oh, we're scared. I mean, being vulnerable is scary. It's even scarier in public. It's, it's natural, but when we cover up our vulnerability with fear and that's what we present in public and that's, that's the basis on which we act, really gets us into trouble. I mean, I'll just give you a really concrete example. You know, nine 11 was this moment where Americans had an experience that people around the world have all the time. That, you know, they experienced their, our, we experienced our vulnerability in what we thought were our strongest fortresses, right? We experienced, so, and it was an experience of many things.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Yes, it was a terrorist attack, you know? Yes, it had political implications, but with the, at the human level, the experience was, you know, this, this vulnerability, but we had no, we have no habits of being able to dwell with that. Just to kind of mourn.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Or take in, or imagine, what is that teaching us, right? So that, again, among many other things, could have been this moment where we took in the reality of so many people around the world who live like this all the time, right? Places where bombs go off in marketplaces every week. So it could have been a point of kinship, among other things. It could have been a point of kinship with many people around the world. But instead, what we did is, we covered that up. We didn't sit with that. We were appalled, we were righteously indignant, you know, for good reasons, right?

• 35:54Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not criticizing this reaction either, but that's the only reaction we acted on. That need to reassert our power and our perfection. And I think that here, whatever we are 13 years later, you know, we're reaping the consequences of the human complexity. And really, just that, not just the political complexity, but the human complexity of everything, of all these dynamics in the world right now. So I think somehow, we have to, I think maybe the, maybe, you know, your generation and the generations coming up are gonna help with that. I kind of think this is a 20th century issue.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  And again, I'd come back to your issue, you know, what is greatness? It's about, you know, this perception of total strength. And, you know, no weaknesses, no failings, no mistakes along the way, which in any, in any life, or in any nation, is always an illusion, right? That's not the way life works. So I do think that we are, that technology and the transparency that it just forces, and just also the new sensibility, I mean, so many of these big pieces of perfection and greatness, these things we wore on our sleeves, including, you know, our economic, you know, we see that there are flaws here.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  And letting that sit will make us healthier and will actually make us resilient and will actually make us more imaginative, right? About how we move forward and how we create new kinds of strength.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  So what do you think are the qualities that, you know, my generation and the generations to come need to focus on the most in order to create a better, connected, loving, sustainable world?

• 37:41Speaker 01

  I've been talking to different people about this lately. I do think that some of the, the language that, and the virtue, which, which are about virtues that, that new generations bring in, like transparency, like authenticity. I think that these are concepts that are about reuniting inner life with outer life, you know, with becoming people of greater integrity in public and in private. And reuniting these things, you know, in our workplaces, in our families, in our economy. So that, that I think is, is there and is good. Something else that's on my mind a lot lately is growing up our technology, you know?

• 38:25Speaker 00

  What do you mean by that?

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, the internet is, is in its infancy. I mean, we feel like, right? We feel like, I mean, especially those of us who, who'd already been alive for a little while before the internet came along. It's like this thing suddenly descended and took over, took over everything. Took over the world, took over your life, took over your work life, took over your children's lives. And so, so many people are just, you know, you, we just feel like, I mean, there's so much that's wonderful about it. And there's so much where you always feel like you're catching up. And, and it's, and it's unmanageable, feels unmanageable. And it is right now because it's so new. And I, it's important to, for us all to remember that it is so new and that it's our, it's our job, it's our calling, if you want to use that lofty word,

• 39:09Speaker 01

  you know, to shape technology to human purposes. It can go so many different ways. It can, you know, it can go to the darkest side and it can go to the brightest side. And it's up to us. And I think that you, that younger generations who've grown up with the technology, I, I mean, I, you know, I guess this isn't, I, this may not be true, but this is what I believe, that, that they will have. Intuitions, you know, almost like physical intuitions about how to do that. But that is a huge, huge challenge is taking this thing, this powerful tool, and making it work, you know, to humanize and, you know, towards

• 39:53Speaker 01

  the good qualities that we want in ourselves and in our society.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Rather than just letting it run away, you know, with itself.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Or letting it be completely, I mean, look, we've, you know, we've seen images of people being beheaded recently, right? I mean, that's also the way it can be used, but, but there's so much other potential. And I, I mean, I just think it's this amazing frontier. But it, it can use so much imagination and creativity and goodwill and perseverance to shape it.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  Isn't it, I find it fascinating what we're able to create and achieve with the internet and the power of the internet. I mean, you know, with countries being overthrown or governments being overthrown, I should say, and just so much that you can create with it, like you said, the imagination that people have with how to use it is so fascinating to me. And it just happened in the last, you know, 10 years, really.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  It's amazing. It's amazing.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Can only imagine what will happen the next 10, 20 years with it.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, it is, it's working on all kinds of basic human perceptions and experiences like identity and community.

• 41:01Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Right? And these things are becoming expansive, you know, in a way they've never been before and fluid in a way they've never been before. And that was happening anyway, but then it converges with the technology and it just, just, you know, shoves these doors wide open. And that's a big piece of change when we're redefining things like identity. But so much of what's happening is making us more complete, right? It's honest. And, and it, you know, I, there's, I love this phrase of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel is one of the great wise people in history. You know, he said, he, his, his advice to young people was understand that your life

• 41:46Speaker 01

  is a work of art. And, you know, at the, at its best, I think these online lives people have and, you know, these platforms for human creativity just, you know, just totally expands our imaginations about that concept.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I want, I want to ask you a few more questions before we wrap up. And thank you for spending the time and answering these questions. There, you know, I really appreciate your, your insights. You've got a lot to offer and a lot to give to, to everyone in the world and specifically my listeners. So I appreciate all that you've been sharing. I'd love to do this again sometime and dive even deeper into some of these topics in the future. What is your vision with this message that you're delivering with the, the work you're doing with On Being? You know, you've won a lot of awards from the White House and it's one of the top 50 shows, I guess, on iTunes and probably, you know, one of the top out there in the world. What's your mission for the next five, 10 years? How much longer are you going to be doing this?

• 42:47Speaker 00

  And what do you see coming from it in the future?

• 42:50Speaker 01

  So something that's been interesting to me is the way my, what I'm learning from this kind of cumulative conversation is leading me to really start caring about common life, you know, public life. I think that when I started, I was really focused on spiritual life and religious life, you know, as, you know, not just as individual experiences, but as community experiences, as forces in the world. But here, here's kind of the, you know, the big, the big way I'm thinking about it now.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  The realization that gave rise actually to all the great traditions was this, this possibility that, you know, that our wellbeing, we talked about this, I'm going to go, you know, might be linked to the wellbeing of, of, of the neighbor, of the stranger. Even the enemy. And our traditions and in this part of life gave rise to these great existential questions. You know, what does it mean to be human? How do we want to live? And I feel like we've come to this place with globalization and just in our development as a species where this third question comes in. You know, what does it mean to be human? How do we want to live? And who are we to each other?

• 44:08Speaker 01

  And that third question, you know, that application of what it means to be human to common life, even to global life, has, you know, actually become a matter of survival. It's like not optional anymore. And whether we call this, whether we call these spiritual questions, you know, that's a way I like to talk about it. Whether we link that to religion, these are essential human questions. And somehow, you know, they are, they're there. You know, how we work with them in very practical ways is going to be about our survival and it's going to be about flourishing. And I think if we don't grapple with them, it will be our demise.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  So who we are to each other, that's just, that's always in a background for me in every conversation now. And we are exploring that on the show. We've created something called the Civil Conversations Project. I mean, I think it's just kind of the germ of something we're going to be building. And that's really become a real passion for me.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Hmm, I like that. You know, you've mentioned that we're all flawed human beings. And what I'm, what I'm taking away from this conversation so far is that these flaws are what makes us human is kind of what I'm taking away from it. So with that being the sense, what's, what would you say is the biggest flaw that you have that makes you human?

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  You know, what's interesting is when you get better at just knowing that you're flawed, it's not as much a problem anymore.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  So I'm not quite as burdened.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  I mean, I went through a big depression in my 30s, which I've written about. And that became a moment of having to, oh, you know, first of all, kind of get honest about painful things in my life, but more than that, how I dealt with them and how I kind of pushed through. I mean, I was such a perfectionist in my younger life, in a way that ultimately was really hard on me. I mean, it was hard on people around me, but it was so hard on myself. I mean, it's a miserable, perfectionism is a miserable way to live.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  It's just exhausting. And so that's always, that's, you know, that's the big thing I've worked on in being gentler with myself, but it also makes me gentler with others and kind of, you know, becoming self-aware and so that it's not, it's like those impulses are still there in me, but just having this piece of self-knowledge so that when I start to lean that way, I see it. And then, you know, it's again, if you acknowledge these things and you start to see them and you don't hate yourself for them, you say, oh yeah, this is me too. Then if they're integrated, you're not as captive to them.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  I mean, that's my experience of growing, of getting older, you know, which is a wonderful thing. That answers your question.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  No, it does, yeah. And what would you give your 30-year-old self, what advice would you tell your 30-year-old self of what you've learned, or someone who's 30 years old, what advice would you give them, you know, knowing what you know now?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  The main thing I would wish for myself, if I could go back, is I would have just taken more pleasure. And that I would have, you know, taken more delight and again, not been so hard on myself.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Wow. So you don't, you never allowed yourself to kind of receive?

• 47:46Speaker 01

  I mean, I guess, you know, it looked like I had a lot of fun, but, but I think, you know, I was all, everything was very driven and purposeful and, and I was always looking for the next thing. It's very hard. I mean, I love that story you told about your father a little while ago because it is, it's, it's very hard. It's almost constitutionally hard for us to really understand, especially when you're young, that every moment in fact is not defining, you know, that whatever is difficult or failing today is going to, it's going to change, right? Everything changes. That's this, it's this great spiritual truth. Change is the only constant, even the great things, right? They're going to change too.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  And so, so I would, and, and so in that sense, I mean, I, I was serious and am serious, but I, I mean, I'm committed actually, kind of like you, I'm committed to saying, you know, even in our time, we can take in big ideas and there's this part of us that wants this and we want to go deep. So I'm not saying be superficial, but I, but I would say, you know, somehow try to understand that, you know, nothing, nothing is final, no moment is final. And that, and that it's so important in everything to try to find the places to take pleasure and delight and forgive yourself and be gentle with yourself and be gentle with others. These things are not very fashionable.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  That is possible though. That, that's what I wish, that's what I wish for my 30 year old self.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  I appreciate that answer. That's, I know a lot of women who are very hard on themselves.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  So hard on themselves.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Looking perfect and being perfect and I hope they all listen to that, that answer.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  So, thank you for that. Two final questions. What are you most grateful for recently?

• 49:38Speaker 01

  I, you know what I'm most grateful for? I've, I've realized that I've, I've moved into this time in my life where I'm enjoying like, kind of, ordinary things more. And I'm really grateful for that. It's a wonderful experience. I think I've, I think it is in this category of something that I've practiced, you know, almost like you practice throwing a ball.

• 50:01Speaker 00

  Right.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  And somehow, it's become instinctive. I'm grateful that I'm better at being grateful.

• 50:10Speaker 00

  Another message all women should hear.

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  I like that. I wanna, before I ask the final question, which is what I, I, I ask every guest at the end, is one final question. I want to acknowledge you, Krista, for the incredible work that you've done and that you're constantly doing to raise the consciousness level in the world, and the commitment you have, the love that you have in creating your show, the compassion you have for your guests, and for what you're doing to get the most out of other people. So, I acknowledge you for everything you've done, and thank you for being who you are. The final question, and I want to make sure everyone goes and checks out On Being. Uh, then go to onbeing.com. Definitely download the podcast on iTunes or anywhere it's available.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  Is there anywhere else that they should, should listen to?

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Well, we, we're just creating a new tablet app, which is gonna be really gorgeous and make it really fun to dig into the archive. So, I think that's gonna be out by the end of October.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  Awesome.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  There will be an app, yeah. And there, there's an app now, but it's really basic. It's gonna get better.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  And is it?

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Lewis. And I love, I love what you're doing too. And I've loved, I love the quality and content of this conversation. Thank you.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Oh, my pleasure, yeah. And people can listen to this on the radio as well, right? It's syndicated?

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yes. Public radio, 337 stations. It's on a lot of places, early Sunday mornings.

• 51:35Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  So, if you're not an early riser, iTunes might be the best.

• 51:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  Might be the best option.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Most of my audience listens via podcasts, via, you know, iTunes in their phone. But, uh, for those that do listen to radio still, uh, definitely check it out.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Well, I don't, I don't know what God is, but I do know that God invented podcasting.

• 51:52Speaker 00

  Right? It's incredible, isn't it?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  It's fabulous. It's a miracle.

• 51:55Speaker 00

  It's amazing what is, it's so incredible, all the amazing gifts that have come my way since launching and having a podcast. And I'm sure we could share stories left and right about that another time. And I will have everything linked up on the show notes over at lewishouse.com. So I'll let you guys know where to go to get all this information as well. But the final question, Krista, which is what I ask everyone, is what's your definition of greatness?

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Oh, I think my definition of greatness is somehow about, is about wholeness. And it's about self-knowledge. It's about honoring our strengths, whatever they are, being grateful for them, cultivating them. Also honoring what we're not perfect at and what's gone wrong for us. Honoring the other people and circumstances who, you know, who make us living into our greatness possible. It's about connecting up these pieces of ourselves and our lives that, that unwittingly, I think our culture often is kind of pulling these things apart.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  And I think greatness is an intentionality about putting them together and then kind of living the adventure of that.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  I love it. Thank you so much, Krista, for coming on, for sharing and for that definition. And hopefully we can catch up soon.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's great. Thank you so much.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  There you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed this interesting interview with Krista. And thanks so much for Krista for coming on and sharing her wisdom. Make sure to check out onbeing.com and the podcast, On Being, on iTunes. Also, go check out lewishouse.com/98 to see all of the different show notes. Please leave us a comment at the question at the end of the show notes. We love to hear from you. And if you've yet to leave us feedback or a review, make sure to go head over to itunes.com/schoolofgreatness. And let us know what you think about this episode. Thank you guys so much again for joining me today and for being a part of this powerful and inspiring community.

• 54:07Speaker 00

  I appreciate you and I'm so excited to share with you what we have coming up next. You guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.