96 How to Promote Yourself and Become the Brand That Others Talk About with Dan Schawbel

"The more effort you put in, the more you set yourself up for being lucky." - Dan Schawbel To get a list of every resource mentioned in the show, head on over to LewisHowes.com/96 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 96 with Dan Chabel.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  What is up, greats? Thanks so much for tuning in today. My name is Lewis Howes. Very excited about this episode with Dan Chabel. And I want to start out this interview with a quote. It's a quote by Theodore Roosevelt that says, "Do what you can with what you have where you are." Do what you can with what you have where you are. And I thought that was an interesting quote to share today, just because I've been getting a lot of messages from younger individuals or individuals in transition who've been asking me, you know, I really want to be at the next level, and I don't know when I get there, and I'm struggling, and it's frustrating,

• 1:14Lewis Howes?

  and it's annoying, and I feel your pain. I feel the pain and the frustration. But I want you to just think about this quote, "Do what you can with what you have where you are." It's all gonna come if you do it all in order. So allow yourself to be where you are. Don't try to get ahead of yourself, and do the best you can with what you have where you are. That's the quote of the day. Very excited about today's interview with Dan Chabel. Fun fact about Dan, we met, I think, back in 2008. We did a Details Magazine

• 1:54Lewis Howes?

  Photo shoot together with Gary Vaynerchuk and Seth Godin. We'll talk about that in the interview. But he's one of the guys that I saw early on and I said, yep, he's got it. He's got the hustle. He's got the energy. He's got the passion. He's got the hard work. He's doing what it takes to get to where he wants. And he's a really interesting guy, successful New York Times bestselling author, written a couple of different books. He's been featured in pretty much any news outlet you can think of. He's been featured in. He's also written for pretty much every, any news outlet you can think about as well. I don't even know how he creates as much content as he does. It boggles my mind. Sometimes I feel like he lives in just his apartment all day long, writing content and doing interviews and

• 2:37Lewis Howes?

  on every TV show there is. So now let's dive into this interview with the one and only Dan Schawbel.

• 2:54Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back and going to the School of Greatness Podcast. Got my buddy Dan Schawbel on. What's up, Dan?

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Hey, happy to be here.

• 3:02Lewis Howes?

  Now, when did we first meet? It must've been back in 2008. Is that?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm trying to go back in time. I feel like maybe Connie Benson introduced us like in 2007.

• 3:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow, 2007 might've been it. That's like when I just started getting on like social media and blogging.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, 2007 was my original year of networking and I'm like always thankful for 2007 because I spent so much time with people and like giving and helping and connecting all this stuff. And all, a lot of those people are obviously like the rock stars of 2014, right? Because they were early on, they positioned themselves, they built niches, they built companies, et cetera.

• 3:39Lewis Howes?

  Who are some of those people? You know, I think Gary Vaynerchuk is one of those people.

• 3:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was. I mean, remember these two, basically what I think were both. Pretty good at scouting people before they hit it big and like I think Gary was still like Successful but not like you know you could reach him.

• 3:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  And I I feel like you know he's probably one uh I mean Seth God is already always been accessible but like you know some of my like immediate Gen Y network like Ryan Pa. You know I would say him like you know he's much more successful now but like we're really good friends like so I mean it's all across all levels. I mean a lot of who's anyone who really stayed with it and invested and really believed in what they were doing back then is uh

• 4:19Lewis Howes?

  Winning.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Winning right now. Correct.

• 4:21Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy. Yeah, it's been a fun journey. You know, we've uh two thousand and seven made it so crazy how both of us evolved over the last uh how many years it is now.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm so weird like this too because uh like Jenny Blake, for instance, like we're really good friends in New York. We she lives like two blocks over. But we just met a few months ago and I've talked with her since probably two thousand and seven or eight.

• 4:42Lewis Howes?

  Insane. It's crazy. And we you know, this is like this whole I was talking to my girlfriend about this the other day because I was like funny thing uh you know, I'm I'm going to meet with uh Bonnie Hari, who's the food babe. Right? And uh you know, we you and I and a bunch of people in this industry, we meet people all the time online. And we meet people through like what others have created online, their own personal brand, their their their success, whatever may be, their interests, their content. And we meet people online for like years and and we may never meet them in person. We may talk to them over Skype or on the phone or just like we just like go right to texting, but never actually meet people for for years sometimes. And um you know, I was meeting with uh Vani the other night.

• 5:27Lewis Howes?

  And it was funny as I was telling my girlfriend, I was like, yeah, I'm really excited. I'm meeting this girl. She lands and then I'm like going to her hotel. And we're going to dinner and she's really awesome and exciting and I met her on the internet. It just if you weren't in the she's not in the my girlfriend's not in the online industry at all. So if you're not in that space. It might be a little off putting like, wait a minute, you met a girl on the internet that you're meeting for the first time at her hotel. You're having dinner with her. She was like really like it's like what's going on? But this is kind of the world we live in.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  I know, it's crazy, but my whole thing, the way I look at it, because I'm an introvert.

• 6:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you are.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  Is, is that using, basically, like, the network I have, you shouldn't be able to have this as an introvert, right?

• 6:10Lewis Howes?

  Your network is ridiculous.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  For, for being an introvert.

• 6:13Lewis Howes?

  And for being an introvert, yes.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  It, because, well, an extrovert, yeah, but still, I guess, Joe, but, but the thing is, is that I under, I understood early, once social networks hit and, and were beginning popular, that, oh, I can use this to connect to the right people, you know, without being kind of stressed out about that, like, being in a social situation and walking up to some random person in networking event, build those relationships, and then it's gonna be very easy. Like, I was just at this, uh, Inc. Magazine event last week, and, you know, I'd interviewed Simon Sinek a few times, I kind of built something with him and spoke at an event with him years ago. And I walked right over him, it's no big deal. Why? Because we already had some sort of connection that was built in, in a very, uh, you know, online way, but he already heard of me, so it's just easier, and that means,

• 6:56Speaker 01

  as an introvert, I'm less afraid, I'm kind of, you know, more open to doing something like that. So using the internet to filter and find the right people, and then, you know, in networking situations, it becomes so much easier.

• 7:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's kind of like a gradual connection over time, as opposed to just like, hey, we're meeting in person for the first time and trying to create some type of connection. Obviously, if you're not comfortable with that, I, I feel very comfortable doing that, but I, for a lot of people that don't, this is a great way to definitely connect, and you've done, you're one of the most, you know, the people have done the best job of building relationships, you know, when I look at your site, of all the people you've interviewed, was it like thirteen hundred people that you've interviewed? Of authors, entrepreneurs, executives, and celebrities since two thousand and seven, is that right?

• 7:37Speaker 01

  It, it's crazy, I know, it's, it's like, uh, and I'm still going, you know, and it's one of the things, Louis, it's like, everything's a long-term strategy, right? It took me nine months to get Chelsea Handler, three and a half years to get Donald Trump. Um, you know, I'm willing, I'm willing to wait, be patient. When people say no, to me, that means, you know, wait six months, wait a year, go again, and I keep going, like, um, I have Eric Schmidt coming up, I'm actually, I'm interviewing him, and I'm actually seeing Colbert interview him, you know, a few days after I interview him, which is very interesting. And, uh, but I've been working on trying to interview him for like a few years, too.

• 8:12Lewis Howes?

  Crazy man, who you know, you've interviewed all these different people, but that's not really like your business is you know, you don't want to be someone to interview someone, you're not like a show host. But why do you connect with people to interview them first? Um, for your business or for your, your, what you want to create in your business world?

• 8:32Speaker 01

  I think really at the, the foundation, you know, obviously being interested in other people's works and you know, a lot of these are self-selected. It's not, it's to me, even though it's so many, it's still not random. There are a lot of people you can interview in the world. Um, for me, it's, you know, how do I build such a network? So when I'm taught, it's almost the reason why I feel like when I was first starting off, I had personal branding magazine, personal branding TV, I had an events business. I had like a two blogs. I'm doing like a million things.

• 9:00Lewis Howes?

  Everything.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  And I think I'm in a full-time job and I think.

• 9:03Lewis Howes?

  And you were writing for a hundred publications, every news, every news outlet you were writing for, right?

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Part of, part of my thought process is, you know, how do I do so many things? So if I'm in situations, I can connect and relate to everyone, every, everyone's business. If you say, oh, I know someone, I'm like, oh, I interviewed him or I know her, like it's just, it's creates, it creates a situation where it enables me to, you know, build bridges faster.

• 9:28Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  And bridges lead to sales and business and new opportunities.

• 9:32Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting you say that because I feel like I can relate to everyone. Anyone I meet, I feel like there's some thing I can find out about them where I'm like, okay, yeah, I can relate to that, or I've done that before, or I know someone who's done that, or I know that person in that industry. It's because we do so many different things and some people may say, you know, you spread yourself too thin, Dan, you're, you're doing too much. But I like how you said that there, uh, that you really can build a bridge with everyone and it generates more sales for you. And whenever someone asks me, you know, what do you do? I'm sure you get this a lot, Dan. It's like, what do you do? What, you know? And it's really hard for me to say, but I love, I love figuring out what they are up to first, because then I can respond with a bridge that connects

• 10:15Lewis Howes?

  what I have done or one of the 20 things that I'm doing to what they're doing.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:20Lewis Howes?

  Right? Do you do that too? So if you're working with an author who's a book author, you'll be like, well, I'm an author as well.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, I think relatability is interesting too. Um, you know, for me, it's, it's like.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Everything connects. So the second I published the promote yourself and the first book was me two point O, I realized what I had done and I, and I, it just hit me is that I really have this overall like vision, vision and mission in life that I can connect everything to. And really what it is, is I'm following my generation from college to CEO. So me two point O, even though, you know, the focus on personal branding, et cetera. It's really a career book that helps you go from college to first job, promote yourself. It's really first job to management. And then eventually the next book is management to executive level. So in terms of overall mission, I do that. And then in order to help millennials do that, I have to speak at companies

• 11:18Speaker 01

  in order to help them improve their cultures and in, in management styles in order to appeal to these upcoming generations. So from a business standpoint, it's all for millennials as they grow, because I'm a millennial, I'm growing with them. So I'm retaining the same audience. So it's easier to sell. And then most of my sales come from B to B, but B to B, the objective is to help companies better work with these millennials. So they become more successful, which connects to the main vision.

• 11:47Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. I like that. Now, when you were starting out, learning about personal branding and branding in general, you know, just as a, a young, you just graduated college, you had your first job. Uh, you started kind of doing all this stuff. What is it? Why were you so interested in personal branding? And what is it? What does actually mean to, what does a brand mean? Like, what's the definition of a brand mean to you?

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Great question. So for me, like, a lot of this, as you can tell, has been pretty natural. It's not like I'm faking it or anything. And when I was starting off, you know, I kind of, I knew it was going to be hard to graduate with a job in marketing, even back then. And obviously it's harder now. And so I was like, oh, what can I do? And so like, even in, even, you know, I've been working since I was 13. I was creating personal websites when I was like in middle school. I had my first internship in high school. I started my first business in college. I had seven other internships in college. So like, I was like, learning how to do this. And how I would get these opportunities is I had a website. I had a business card. Um, you know, I became really good at like graphic design and web development back then. Obviously,

• 12:55Speaker 01

  I don't do that really anymore, but I, I specialized in certain things for a specific audience. And that was people in my neighborhood. Um, And from there, you know, I kind of learned a lot of skills from how do I present myself? I used to bring an interview, I would bring a CD portfolio and it ages me to say that. I just actually just turned thirty-one on Sunday. Congrats. And uh, no one knows what, yeah, no one knows what uh, CDs are in uh, who are young, you know, Gen Z'ers now. And, you know, I bring it and I just remember, and again, this was all testing. I didn't know what was gonna work, but I would go into interviews, I'd be like, you know, here's a CD portfolio to show that everything I'm talking about, I've actually done before and here are case studies.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  And here's my business card and the business card has my website. Um, so basically the way in which I presented myself without a hundred percent knowing the reaction back then in early college years, um, was how I differentiated myself. No one else had done that. And they would say, oh, this CD's a keeper. And I was like, that was one of the first things that hit me, like, I'm really on to something here. This is why I keep getting these internships. This is why, you know, everyone wants to like mentor me and support me is because they realize that I'm taking this seriously. Um, you know, I'm practicing marketing by doing it kind of for myself in a sense. Um, but it really wasn't until I tried to get a job when I graduated that branding hit me in a big way. Uh, this was the first of two and then, then I'll tell you the other one.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  The first one was, um, trying to get a job when I graduate, I, my resume is kind of, it's like two pages, it's like eight, there's eight internships, seven leadership positions on campus, my own business has so much stuff like, um, that I, that I worked hard for. Uh, but because I was afraid of networking, because I didn't have these online tools back then, um, I kind of avoided it and it took me, uh, eight months, but I started really early, uh, to get a job when I graduated at EMC Corporation. I, I met fifteen people for three different positions and got one of the positions. And during that last interview, it kind of changed, uh, my, my view of branding and the importance of it and personal branding,

• 15:00Speaker 01

  is they were looking at my resume, I had internships at like Reebok and some of these, a little bit more branding companies. And then internships at companies you've never heard of before. And the companies you've never heard of before, I got so much experience with them. But at Reebok, if you're like a marketing intern, you're not doing, it's all admin. I mean, I don't care what anyone says, it's nothing, right? You have to be like a manager in order to do work that is cool there. Um, that's just kind of retail, I guess, but. But then, but they always, they looked at Reebok. They were scanning the resume. I could see their eyes land on Reebok and they're like, oh, you worked at Reebok. And to me, to me, that was like, wow. Brands matter. Brands open doors. Brands create opportunities. And that was like the aha moment is like,

• 15:45Speaker 01

  wow, I gotta pay. This is, there's something here, right? And, and then, and then I think what you see throughout my whole career, as you know, as you look at like my bio and everything that I put out, everything I do, every sentence is associated with some sort of brand, everything.

• 16:01Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Because if you don't know me or don't try, know or trust me, you know someone of these other brands. And through the association of those brands, my, my brand is more trusted, so you might wanna work with me. That's the entire logic. That's why, um, you know, I work with so many different companies, especially the Fortune one thousand. I wanna work with people you know, so it's easier for me to network and build upon all of that. And, uh, you know, I'm so happy. I, I worked at a Fortune two hundred company when I first started because I can leverage that for the rest of my life. People don't understand the long-term play. I always, and Garrett, you know, Vaynerchuk talked about this a lot, like I'm obsessed with this U R two. It's like, oh, let me do things today. I know they'll pay off in ten years and I'm fine with that. I don't care.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Uh, because I know this is my trajectory for till I can't like move anymore. And so, you know, I'll make the investment day in, day out. I'll do things that might not be smart. I don't, uh, let me just do it. And, and I always wanna be doing like every, I wanna have like a portfolio of things that I really enjoy, so I don't get bored, A. So if I only do one thing, I'm bored, hands down. Um, and, and because everything I do sort of relates to everything. It's not like random. It's not like I have a car blog, you know, even though I, I like cars is I, I don't have that. Everything is interconnected. So personal branding and workplace trends and generations, everything is, is really connected. And so everything I do in a sense supports everything else I do.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  And, and really the other thing that, that was huge was when I, when I started the blog, two thousand six, then turned into per, it's called Driven to Succeed. That was the first version. And then personal branding blog after I read Tom Peters' brand called You article. And, you know, that's, that article for the cover, that, that changed Fast Company Magazine's trajectory. And now it's like, you know, there's eight hundred thousand print subscribers. I mean, it's huge. And the article said you have to be the chief marketing officer for the brand called you. At the end of the day, you know, success lies in your hands. You have to be the CEO of me, Inc. And then there's one other part of the article that stood out to me probably more than most people. The smartest people, he said, are the ones that create a unique position in their companies.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  And what's crazy is that hit me and um almost accidentally, basically building the blog, doing, you know, I had a magazine, I blogged ten, twelve times a week, a million things. I had a Six Sigma project, I was working over a hundred hours a week. I used to call my my apartment like the cave, I didn't see my friends, like I was, I was locked in, writing the book, like there's so much going on and and so.

• 18:33Lewis Howes?

  Perfect for, perfect for an introvert.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, seriously. And and so like after six months of all the work, um Fast Company profiled me and it was actually ten years to the day when Tom Peters' article originally came out. And the article basically showed that I was doing all this out of outside of work, like kind of building my personal brand by doing all this stuff around personal branding. And then PR got wind of it because it mentioned that I worked at EMC. They sent me to do a vice president and I got to co-create the first social media position, potentially ever in a Fortune two or a company.

• 19:04Lewis Howes?

  I remember this.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Maybe there's a few others, but it was, this is two thousand seven, this is way, we're in two thousand fourteen.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  I remember you getting this gig, yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  And when I got the gig, my, here's the transformation. It went from, you know, hey, you know, Jason, who was my boss before I got that new, my second boss at EMC. And I'm like, oh, like, you know, what do you need me to do today? To, you know, Dan, we're working on this project, uh, you know, how can we use social media to make this cooler or better? And I'm like, wow, this is transformational because now I'm the expert in my company. I fulfilled sort of everything that Tom Peters had talked about. And I became my own kind of case study and improved everything that I was doing. And it was just like this really, really cool moment because, I mean, literally, my boss, when he, when he saw, my second boss at EMC, when he saw that article in Fast Company, that was like, it was like flying around the company.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Uh, this is a forty five thousand uh person company worldwide and and he got, he literally cried at work because it was my, my hobby, it wasn't like, I wasn't really thinking that this was gonna turn into a a huge business or anything like that. And he got it, he like could not believe. And, and to, to like when you're first starting out a company to even have a meeting where the vice, a vice president, you know, calls you in a, a company like that, it's like ridiculous. And so I got to create my own position. They didn't even have the job description for it. I, in the system, it had, it actually had to say PR specialist because it was so new that I didn't even have to do with it.

• 20:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Um, so I was in the early days of corporate social media, which was interesting. And then, you know, I kept building, sacrificing nights and weekends and working and working and growing and, and, uh, you know, the, obviously getting that new position inspired me to point out the first book, hustled for it, as you know, uh, rejected by seventy out of seventy agents and two publishers, got it on my own, um, which is probably like impossible to do now. I mean, that, that publisher doesn't even publish anymore. And, and then, you know, I listened to David Mierman Scott, who said, you know, the publishers aren't gonna do anything for you. You're on your own. You make it happen. You do the whole marketing. And I, I did the whole program for that and that, it, you know, you can compare that to today's book launch and that book launch

• 21:11Speaker 01

  was seen by more people because it was less noise.

• 21:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  So like literally people know me for that book over the new book, even though this one had so much more firepower under it. The other one, it, it was much easier to break through back then. You, I was on Mashable. They did a book review on Mashable and like, people saw that, like now there's, they publish like four hundred articles a day on Mashable.

• 21:30Lewis Howes?

  Right, they won't see it.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then for the second book, as you know, the story, three and a half years, fired, two agents, hired four consultants, three book proposals, barely got it. Um, you know, I always felt like the underdog, to be honest. I mean, clearly. And, um, you know, I kept, I created this huge marketing plan. I just worked so hard. I did the campaign from December two thousand twelve. Uh, book came out September, uh, third, uh, of last year. Marketed the heck out of this thing. Uh, you know, asked for all the favors as we talk about, like helping out everyone and then getting help. Um, and, uh, you know, what's crazy is part, I got the book deal for two other reasons, which are, which I typically forget to talk about is one,

• 22:12Speaker 01

  is I wanted to challenge myself. I had never done primary research before. It was always secondary. So I was like, I gotta get a company to sponsor this. So I pitched a hundred twenty companies, a hundred nineteen said no. American Express said yes.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  So I upped that and then that was right and I was like, I was like dying because my agent was like, Dan, you're gonna get this sponsored because it was December and he wanted to go out with it like January 2nd to publishers. I'm like, oh, don't believe me. I'll get this. I'll get this. And I got it. And like, it was so ridiculous when I got it. It was amazing. And then, and then I actually had this other uh study that I had launched, that was launching in January too. And this was like my first foray. I mean, the AMEX study didn't come out until last year, but this was my first study that comes out. And I like invest completely in this thing. It it was my second biggest launch to date. You know, seventy one national media outlets. It was so big. It basically went viral. And then, and then the publisher basically, you know, so it was,

• 23:11Speaker 01

  you know, all the publishers dropped out and it was just St. Martin's and they're like, oh, we kind of like this, but we're not a hundred percent sure. And then bam, the the even with the AMEX sponsoring and everything and then boom, the the the basically I do that huge launch. And then the the publisher's like, okay, we we trust him. He can sell this thing. And it was like ridiculous, the timing of all of that like happening together. Like if I got rejected this time around, like and had to do like another year of trying to get a I would have died. But it happened and then still like I'm sort of being fed against because it's it's a paperback. And then I just hustle like crazy, un- like unbelievable amounts of hours I put into this thing.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Uh my database, you should see my database of like people I had to contact a hundred, like thousands maybe. Uh I pitched six hundred fifty media outlets for this thing.

• 24:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Um and and and so the book comes out and I also got Ernst and Young to sponsor my book launch. And that I got rejected for another like eighty companies to do that. And so like they sponsored that. And so now I have like AMEX, REY. Now I'm feeling a little bit, a little bit better. Um and then the book comes out and I sell like sixty five hundred copies the first week. And then the results come in the week. Oh, so basically the second week was when my book launch happened in New York. And then the results came out the next day, New York Times, Wall Street Journalist, right? And I didn't pay anyone off. I did the whole thing on my own. And then I turned thirty. It was the most ridiculous week ever.

• 24:44Lewis Howes?

  Haha, congrats, man.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 24:47Lewis Howes?

  That's awesome. And you know, you're definitely one of them been able to do that without putting the time, the energy and building your brand and your credibility, creating all this content, all this information for years since 2006. There's no way that would have just happened. If you wanted to do a book and just start selling it. All those things happened because you put in the hours, you put in the work, the connection, the relationship, and you gave and gave and gave. That's what I took away from that, that story you just shared. And, you know, I wanted to talk about, I wanted to keep diving into this, this branding topic because I'm seeing the value of having my own brand grow and grow, and the opportunities that come my way. You know, you mentioned, once you have this brand, these opportunities start coming your way. And you would

• 25:30Lewis Howes?

  never would have got the book deal if you didn't have the brand. You never would have got the position at the, the job if you didn't have the brand, all those different things. And, you know, I remember, you remember the, uh, the Details Magazine shoot we did?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, that was hilarious. With Seth Godin and he wouldn't do, he wouldn't hold one of the microphones. That's what I remember most about it.

• 25:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that was awesome.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  That was pretty badass. It's like, I'm so successful that

• 25:54Lewis Howes?

  I'm not doing what you tell me to do.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  I'm thinking of my own rules.

• 25:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it was amazing. So just recap what happened. You know, we're in the middle of Times Square, and it's 2009, right? 2009?

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, it's December 2009.

• 26:06Lewis Howes?

  December 2009. And I'll, I'll tell the whole story. I remember getting an email from, I think his name was Simon.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yep, that's it.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  And I remember getting an email from him saying, hey, Lewis, I'm doing a feature in Details Magazine. Um, and I'll, uh, Tim Ferriss, we're gonna be featuring Tim Ferriss, Gary Vaynerchuk, Seth Godin, Dan Chubbell, and I want to feature you as well. And I remember being like, and I just started and kind of like, I, I think I wrote my, when did I write my LinkedIn book? Uh, I think it was 2000. Nine, I guess, like earlier that year, but I remember just kind of like getting into the space and really not doing that much. Like I literally just got in like a year prior to like creating anything and was pretty much faking it until I made it with everything, just creating content, adding value, going to events, creating events, doing a lot of the stuff that you talked about, Dan. But I remember being like, I'm not really that

• 27:00Lewis Howes?

  well known of a name. I haven't really done anything. I'm still not really making any money. I haven't built a business yet, but I'm creating. And I remember getting this email and being like, yes, whatever you need, let me know. I'm happy to do the interview. I'm happy to be out in New York. And so we do the interview. We go out to New York, we do the thing. I'll talk about that in a second. But afterwards, I just emailed him. I didn't want to jinx it before. So after the thing ran, I just said, hey, thanks so much for the, you know, interviewing me and including me in the magazine. It's great. It was like this two-page spread of us. And I said, by the way, how did you hear about me in the first place? And he goes, someone influential that I follow, I forget who it was now, retweeted one of your posts. And I went to your website and you had a great

• 27:45Lewis Howes?

  looking site. Your brand looks so quality. And I noticed that Inc. and Fast Company and Fox Business and Entrepreneur Magazine had featured you. And I, because I saw the logos on the top of your site, right? And he said, because of that, I realized that you'd be good enough for Details Magazine because your brand was quality enough because these other people had already featured you. So it was trustworthy for me enough to want to interview you. And, you know, it was something along those lines. I'm just kind of regurgitating what I remember. But I remember at that point realizing, holy crap, the power of building your personal brand and doing exactly what you just said. And this may seem simple, or you may think it doesn't make any sense, or it doesn't really work by having these,

• 28:29Lewis Howes?

  the credibility on your website. Of where you've been featured, of who is talking about you. You know, Dan has a great example. If you go to danshawbell.com, check out his about page. It's like all the places he's been featured. Every media that says something about him, like how he's the guru in every space, like all the top names. You see them talking about him and you know, that gives him credibility. It gives him a lot of equity for what he's created. So that's, that's where I really saw the value of this. And I know you've interviewed Grant Cardone, right?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's great. He's very, obviously very good at this too.

• 29:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, he is amazing at it. And I remember asking him a question. I said, you know, if there's one thing that you could do, if you could go back to when you were like, you know, 25 or 30 again, because I think he's in his late 40s or maybe early 50s even. I'm not even sure. Um, I was like, what would you do differently? He was like, I would invest more in my brand. He was like, I would spend as much money on my brand as possible. And I was just like, that's a really interesting concept because I really see the value of like having a powerful brand. You can leverage it at any time, right?

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Decisions that, that I've made earlier on, I think, I think myself. So like a lot of people are like, you know, I get asked a lot of questions. And I'm always like, I am so thankful that I put the work in earlier on, all those hours, all of that. Because it's not that my life's easier now. It's that I have more opportunities. So if something goes wrong, you know, I'm not as stressed out, you know, it, it creates a foundation where, you know, opportunities are created for you in more of a, a pull rather than a push, meaning that, you know, I find it a little bit less of me saying, hey, let's do this and more of like people coming to me asking for my advice.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  And so the only way to do that is obviously to build and build and build. And it takes time. And most people aren't willing to put the time in, but uh, basically what I think a career is, uh, you know, accumulation of the decisions you make on a daily basis, right? And so everything accumulates. You know, the example I like to give is I'm still getting traffic from a Mashable article I wrote back in 2008.

• 30:38Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:40Lewis Howes?

  Jeez.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  And, and that's the point is like, the more you do, the more you, you know, effort you put in, uh, the more. The more you set yourself up for being lucky, so like, you know, position yourself so you have a shot at being lucky. You know, me, you know, I have a shot now, other crazy things happening because I've done enough, my body of work. Uh, kind of speaks for itself at this point, but again. My life is still not, it's not gonna be easy now because I want, I wanna keep upping my game and to do that, it's gonna be. It's gonna be that much harder. So like, I don't think I'm guaranteed another book. Like I don't, who knows what's, how things are gonna play out, right? Um, the only thing is, is that, um.

• 31:23Speaker 01

  Now I have more experience in other areas, I'm learning, I'm meeting even more people, I'm kind of challenging myself. And I think that's where everyone should kind of be in a position for. It's like, you don't wanna get bored, you don't wanna be replaceable, you have to keep on re. This is the tough part and we just talked about, like, you have to reinvent yourself. Like, I have to keep on, I can't be the person bringing guy for life, I can't be the Gen Y workplace guy for life.

• 31:45Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 31:45Speaker 01

  I have to keep reinventing myself so that I stay relevant to the marketplace and people wanna keep hiring me.

• 31:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's interesting, we were talking about this before we, we started the interview is, uh, you know, we're always thinking a couple of years ahead, even though we may not be. Creating or working for the goal we wanna have in two or three years. It's like, we're thinking about it, we're creating the relationships that could support that when it comes. And I'll give you an example, uh, really quickly about, about my experience is. You know, I was creating all these social media courses for a long time and I really realized after about four years, it done a lot for my business, my brand blew up because of it. You know, I was generating millions in sales every year for the, for our company. And it was awesome, but then there was a point where I was like, I don't really feel like talking about this anymore and it's not what I'm excited about and. I was like, okay, I need to reposition myself.

• 32:34Lewis Howes?

  And it was kind of scary because I've been known as like this LinkedIn guy for a while and then the webinar guy and I was like. Man, but what am I really excited about? What am I really passionate about? And it's, it's, it's connecting with inspiring people and sharing their message. And so that's where the School of Greatness came about. And I've been able to evolve into kind of reinventing that. But, um, you know, without that brand in the first place, without creating that brand in the first place, I don't think I'm gonna be able to do it as easily. But talking like what you said, like really setting yourself up to be get lucky. And, uh, to have that equity that you can turn it on whenever for a new product or whatever it may be. Now, what are some things? You know, whether you have a job, you're an entrepreneur, you wanna get a new job, you wanna start something on your own on the side.

• 33:16Lewis Howes?

  What are some things that you say would would be necessary for people to really start the foundation for building a powerful brand in today? Not five years ago, but like right now and knowing what's gonna be happening in the next few years, what are some things that someone that anyone could do in any position? To set themselves up for success for two years down the line, five years down the line, because they're building their brand now?

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think it comes back to pitching, finding a niche. Audience to serve and a specific expertise that you think is gonna become more valuable. For me, I knew personal branding, especially using social networks was. Going to become more important because more and more people are gonna use social networks every year.

• 34:02Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  And it's gonna be harder to stand out. And so like. It's almost like, you know, again, like you have to think like an entrepreneur, like, how do you fit in the marketplace? What are your strengths? Um, what audience is underserved? How can you serve them? And, uh, you know, the aftermath of doing all of that is you get what I call personal brand statement. So like, what are you an expert at? And what audience do you serve? Um, and so like knowing your audience is really, really important. And, uh, you know, choosing the right level of expertise is good and you can always become better at something. So like for me. It's not like, you know, I randomly became an expert at, uh, you know, millennials or.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Personal branding or anything like that. It's constant effort to learn as much as possible to network the right people, to read the right books, to. Um, do the right research, to read other people's research. Like it's a, it's a process and actually my process in the morning. Uh, works pretty well. Basically what I do is I carve out. You know, an hour in the morning when I wake up and I review all my, and I still do it, RSS feeds. So I see. You know, what's, you know, what's going on in my world? That's what I tell myself in the morning. What is going on in my world? I look at all the articles, you know, I read the best articles, I, you know, bookmark those articles.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  And now whenever I'm on a call, whatever I'm doing throughout the day, I'm that much more relevant and smarter.

• 35:29Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting because I actually don't look at the news ever and maybe it's something I should do like. People were talking about the Ray Rice incident recently and I was like, I thought that was six months ago, but I guess it resurfaced. And then I started watching like videos of it and then they were talking about the celebrities that all got hacked in their like nude photos or something. And I was like, I had no clue this was happening. And for me, uh, I see the value of having you like your pole, your, your finger on the pulse and knowing what's happening. But I also don't like to get too distracted and I like to stay focused for what I'm on up to. But it sounds like you've got a pretty good sense of it where you just check it briefly in the morning and then you go and create the rest of the day as opposed to be enamored by it. Right?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Exactly. So it's, it's basically set because my whole business is based on relevancy and, and, and reading and research and all of this. And so if I want to, if I want to sustain a good value proposition to my audience, uh, the secret is to make reading and learning part of every single day of my life. It's the only way I'm going to be able to pull this off, uh, and to be taken seriously. And I think everything again accumulates. So like, let's say I'm, you know, on TV and CNBC, I can not only just talk about the study that just came out that I worked on, but I can be like, oh, and this compares to what I've done, seen in the past. And like, I can build a better story. Uh, it's like, I just did a study on Gen Z globally.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  It's like, I, I can now teach millennials how to manage Gen Z. Like I can make, I can do a lot more because I'm putting all of these pieces together. And it just reiterates, you know, uh, my expertise, I'm allowed to position myself like next year, you're going to, you're going to just see it's, you know, I'm going to go probably focus more on workplace trends. And, uh, I wouldn't be able to focus on workplace trends really unless I had all of these other niches accounted for. That gives me credibility to, to speak at the higher level now. So it's, it's a, it's a long journey. Um, for me, I like that I've done a lot of the consulting and the research and all this stuff over the past few years, because now, you know, when I, when I create a scalable model, um, I already have everything.

• 37:34Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  You know, and, and it's going to already be taken seriously and I have the connections in the media and I have the corporate people who are into like, I have everything there, but I wouldn't have it there if I didn't have all of this journey accounted for over the past eight plus years.

• 37:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. What about someone coming out of a college right now? Do you feel like?

• 37:56Lewis Howes?

  What are some things they should really be focusing on, I guess? Because from what I remember in college, I didn't learn anything about how to build a business, even if I was in business classes. And I didn't learn anything about how to get a job. So let's focus more on someone who wants to kind of like start their own thing. Maybe they want to create and get a job to get some skills to then eventually start their own thing. What's something that they should be focusing on? What's something you think they really need to do that they don't teach you in school?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Uh, that's a great question. So as you know, and I'm sure we're on the same page, the education system is not what it should be.

• 38:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  And you know, it's not like we're the only people complaining about it. I've done like research on it and it's too many. It's 1.2 trillion dollars in student loan debt.

• 38:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Um, you know, 40% of millennials are unemployed when they graduate. Uh, there's just so many problems, you know, 21 billion, uh, graduates are living with their parents when they graduate.

• 38:53Lewis Howes?

  21 million?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  21 million, yeah, it's a huge, there's so many problems right now. And mainly what it comes down to is this skills gap. So what's it really interesting is you have three people competing for every job in America right now. But there's 4.7 million, uh, job openings. And that skills gap has been consistent over the past two months and it's widened over the past four months. Uh, and really the opportunity is in STEM, so science, um, technology, engineering, math. Uh, and basically the schools, they keep pumping out these liberal arts majors who graduate into not having jobs. We did a study on this that that kind of it didn't, it should have gone viral, but I mean, it was, uh, did well.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  And we found that only 2% of companies nationwide are hiring liberal arts majors. They want business majors, they want engineering majors. They just, it's just not, the education system is not matched up and aligned to corporate America right now where the opportunities are. And that's truly why it's broken. And I'm not saying, you know, you shouldn't take writing in college, I think you should. But I think that there needs to be some sort of business component or entrepreneur component, uh, or technical component or something to every major that you select. You have to be like that, uh, because otherwise companies are hurting. They can't fill those positions and so they're less effective. And then students are unemployed and I, and it's just the whole thing's a mess because.

• 40:19Speaker 01

  Corporations and the education system are not aligned like they should and they can fix this. The problem is that the school system is so political, it's more political than any company you could ever wanna work for. It's I I sell into schools sometimes too and it's so hard. Um, and but if you got like the dean of a school together with or the head of, you know, the cu- curriculum for a school together with like the head of HR at a company or the companies that recruited that school and then you can you connect them both together. Then you can create a a a cooperative, uh, you know, class or curriculum that's gonna help everyone. And it's gonna be good for the companies because the company is gonna help their pipeline. It's gonna be good for the schools because their graduates are gonna get jobs.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  It's gonna be good for the students because obviously they get jobs.

• 41:07Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  But but to make that happen sadly, it sounds obvious, right? It sounds, oh, wow, that makes sense. But then to make it happens hard because of the politics and it's too bad.

• 41:17Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, interesting, yeah. Well, I wanna get a couple more questions in before we wrap it up. One of them is, what individuals and companies do you believe have the best brands out there right now that I just really impressed with? So maybe a few individuals and then also a couple of brands.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's see, that's a great question.

• 41:43Lewis Howes?

  And and why, why do you think they?

• 41:44Speaker 01

  You know, I think, you know who I like and you like him too, uh, we're we're part of similar networks, James Altucher. I think he's he's probably, I listen to him every day. I mean, I always listen to him. Why is because I know it's unfiltered. I know I'm get, I know he's had unlimited experiences. I know I'm getting the most unfiltered things uh, uh, that you could possibly get. I mean, he's like, sometimes he has his wife on there and I'm always nervous that he's gonna say something that's gonna upset her on on on the show. It's really funny. Uh, but no, I think he's like, he's a rock star. I mean, he's built an incredible following. He sold two hundred thousand copies of his last book. I mean, it's just, it's very impressive, especially in this climate, this uh, economy. Uh, so I think he's great, um, obviously like.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  You know, Tim Ferriss is is is cool. I like, you know, Ryan Holiday. We have like a lot of, you know, mutual connections, of course. Um, I think for brands.

• 42:36Lewis Howes?

  What before you before you go on the brands, what is it that those three have in common? Are those four have in common?

• 42:42Speaker 01

  Uh, not afraid. They're not afraid.

• 42:44Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're gonna just, they're gonna tell you what, not what you want to hear always, but what is important to hear from their research and perspectives. Uh, I mean, you know, take Ryan Holiday's book. I mean, he's basically pulling up the court curtain and media like some people know what's going on, but he's actually telling the world, hey, this is actually what's going on. For instance, for for Tim Ferriss, he's like, you know, a lot of you get a lot of this like health information and career advice. Well, I want I want you maybe think of things differently and here's why and here's some examples.

• 43:17Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. Okay, I like that. Um, and the brand side of things?

• 43:24Speaker 01

  And brands, um, you know, I think what what Zappos is doing, and I know you hear this so many times, it's kind of annoying to even say it, but what they're they're doing two things that are really interesting. I'm not just saying it for the the typical things that they do with social networks. I'm saying because what they're doing is there's, you know, obviously they're known for corporate culture, which is really important for the younger generations, but to take that step further, you you can't really apply for a job. You have to be part of their social like, uh, community. And then if you show interest to that community, then you you might get selected for an interview. That's interesting to me, right? I don't know how scalable it is, but it's interesting because it's like, let's hire for personality fit. And in my research, the number one thing that that companies are hiring for now is cultural fit. And then

• 44:07Speaker 01

  the number one thing. So it this is you'll find this interesting. So for college recruiters looking to hire, uh, you know, of course graduates, recent graduates, the number one thing they look for is attitude. For managers who are looking to promote people in their organization, the number, I think it's number two thing that they look for is positive attitude. Right? It's crazy, but that just shows the importance of hiring for cultural fit, you know, following the personalities because if they get along with the team, if they they network with everyone, then, you know, great things will happen. And so that that to me is is great because a lot of people are like, oh, I'll just apply for fourteen hundred jobs and hopefully someone says yes, right?

• 44:50Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Um, I'm more about, okay, you can apply for like four hundred jobs if you want, but make them the jobs that you'd actually wanna wanna have in the companies you're interested in. Because otherwise, you're competing against people who really want the jobs and you have no shot.

• 45:04Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, yeah, I like that. Interesting. Last couple of questions. One is, what are you most grateful for recently?

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Ooh, okay. Um, I think I'm grateful for the fact that I'm able to live in New York. To be honest, I never thought I'd ever end up here. And just to like, just to kind of be here, like everyone always complains about the rent and like how how like if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere. It's kind of cool that, um, you know, I'm able to live here. And the other thing that I think is really awesome is, you know, like when you're growing up, like, I don't know if it's for you, but my parents paid for a lot. Like, if I were out to dinner, like, I'm not like making money, like, when I'm really, really young, right? And my parents would pay and whatever. And now I don't have to pay for anything, and I think that's awesome.

• 45:49Lewis Howes?

  You don't have to pay for anything?

• 45:51Speaker 01

  No, I don't let them pay.

• 45:52Lewis Howes?

  Oh, got you, got you.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  So it's almost like, it's like a cycle. It's like, okay, that it's almost like my, and they kind of get, they still want to pay for things, but I'm like, you know, it's almost like my thanks, mom and dad for kind of investing me forever. And now it's my turn, almost. And and that's kind of cool. Like, you know, we talked to Ramit, Ramit like takes, you know, parents on like these epic trips. Uh, and and I think that's really cool is that it's like returning the favor, you know, working really hard and then returning the favor.

• 46:18Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, yeah, I like that. Awesome. Well, I want everyone to go and before we do the last question, I want everyone to make sure to check out dan schaubell.com, personalbrandingblog.com, and also the book, Promote Yourself, The New Rules for Career Success. But Dan's just got a lot of great content and information in general, so just make sure to follow him, check out his information, and check out the book if you're looking to get a new career and learn about branding and yourself inside the workforce. The final question of the podcast is, what is your definition of greatness?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  You know, being the best at what you do for a specific audience, and that connects back to, you know, personal branding and kind of my way of thinking of, you know, the world is if you're going to choose something, try and be the best at it, because if you don't, you kind of get the scraps, you know, it becomes really hard to compete.

• 47:11Lewis Howes?

  I love it. Dan Schaubell, thanks so much for coming on, man. I appreciate you.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Nope, no problem. I appreciate you as well. Thanks.

• 47:23Lewis Howes?

  There it is, greats. I hope you enjoyed this episode, and if you did, make sure to go head back to the show notes over at lewishouse.com/96, lewishouse.com/96 to get all of the notes, the links, where you can find Dan, his websites, his books, all those different things, back at lewishouse.com/96. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review over on iTunes and leave a comment over on the blog. Share it with a friend, and I would love to connect with you guys. So, share with a friend, post a picture on Instagram, let me know where you're listening to this. Again, reach out to me in the way that you feel works best

• 48:05Lewis Howes?

  for you, whether it's Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, whatever it may be. I want to hear, I want to see where you guys are listening to the show and see what you're up to. So, thank you guys so much for being amazing listeners for diving in, and we've got some big, big guests coming on in the next couple of weeks, some huge, awesome interviews that I am, I am pumped. I was, I was, I'm so pumped because it's Those interviews where I was like, "Man, I just want to go longer and longer and longer" "because I didn't know how to cut it off." "They were so entertaining and inspiring and, yes, juicy stuff coming ahead." "So, thank you guys so much." "You know what time it is." "It's time to go out there and do something great."