872 Jon Dorenbos on Forgiveness and Choosing Happiness

PLAY THE LONG GAME. The cover of a book never tells the entire story. People often assume that successful people have had an easy life. Many, though, have persevered through extremely painful life events. Sometimes it takes accepting your reality in order to move forward. Sometimes it takes forgiveness. You will face setbacks and some of those setbacks might be tragic. Preparation and process can get you far. But sometimes you need to dig even deeper and release yourself from trauma in order to truly move forward. You will be tested. But keep going. Face your reality, follow your dreams and live with purpose. On today’s episode of The School of Greatness, I talk about turning tragedy into triumph and living out your rock star dreams with an NFL superstar and elite magician: Jon Dorenbos. Jon Dorenbos is a former NFL long snapper football player. He played for the Buffalo Bills, the Tennessee Titans, and the Philadelphia Eagles. He also has a successful career as a magician. He has appeared on America’s Got Talent and on The Ellen Degeneres Show. Jon is open about the difficult situations he faced in his life. But by choosing happiness, he has come out on top and is living his ‘Rock Star’ life. So get ready to learn about forgiveness choosing happiness on Episode 872. Some Questions I Ask: Can you tell us about your emotional and powerful life story? (8:35) Have you spoken to your father since the tragic incident? (24:40) When did you find peace and forgiveness? (41:00) What was the biggest lesson you learned from your dad? (50:20) What was your goal at that point in your career? (01:08:00) How did you find out that you needed open-heart surgery? (01:14:45) In This Episode You Will Learn: How an alter-ego will help you get through challenging times. (4:25) About the power of finding peace during a difficult time. (20:00) How to practice forgiveness. (41:00) Why you need to make smarter decisions when you have a family. (50:20) How to set goals that help you plan your life. (01:08:00) Why you need to avoid self-pity. (01:19:00) If you enjoyed this episode, check out the video, show notes and more at www.lewishowes.com/872 and follow at instagram.com/lewishowes Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is episode number 872 with John Dorenbos.

• 0:05Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  Nelson Mandela said, "When a deep injury is done to us, we never heal until we forgive." This is probably one of the most inspiring stories of someone that I've connected with and interviewed on how they overcame extreme trauma and came out the other side to become one of the most beautiful human beings and do great things with their life. If you don't know who John Dorenbos is, he's a former NFL football player, elite magician, speaker, and author. And when John was 12 years old, his father murdered his mother in the family's

• 1:13Speaker 00

  three-car garage. He discovered an escape by performing magic tricks. And football then provided a release for all of his pent-up anger. Together, magic and football saved his life, leading to 14 NFL seasons and amazing sleight-of-hand performances to packed houses across the globe. And in the NFL, John played for the Buffalo Bills, Tennessee Titans, and the Philadelphia Eagles. He holds the record for the most consecutive games in Eagles franchise history and earned two Pro Bowl appearances and a Super Bowl ring.

• 1:53Speaker 00

  As a magician, John was a finalist on America's Got Talent and regularly appears on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. His new book, Life is Magic, draws a roadmap for how to shut the voice up by choosing happiness. And it's out right now. And I want to give a warning to our listeners. This is a warning. That this episode contains some explicit stories of domestic violence and criminal activity and the details may make some listeners extremely uncomfortable. So if that is something that you believe will make you feel uncomfortable, please be aware, feel free to put this on pause or don't listen to this if you feel like this will affect

• 2:38Speaker 00

  you in a traumatic way. But in this episode, it's extremely powerful, the story he shares. And John talks about how he transforms negative experiences into motivation for life. Talks about forgiveness, forgiving his father for what he did and the profound impact it has had on his life. The biggest lessons he learned from his father and how he will pass it on to his own daughter. How John got his coaches and mentors to believe in him by consistently showing up. The power of accepting reality as it is and how needing open heart surgery actually brought that all home for John.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  Again, he's got a crazy story and he's one of the most inspiring guys that I've met. So make sure to share this with a friend that you think it would be inspiring to. Pay this forward, be a hero and a champion in someone's life by connecting with them and send them this link, lewishouse.com/872. And I am so excited about this episode. I really hope you get a lot of value out of this. Please share with your friends and let me know what you think when you're going through this episode. Let me introduce to you the inspiring John Dornbos.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  I want to be a rock star, right? Problem is I can't sing, I can't dance and I can't play a instrument, so.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Justice is a good way to go.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  Well, you know what? When I was a kid, when I was 14, I saw Bill Malone on TV. He was a card guy. So I didn't see Stevie Ray Vaughan, I didn't see Hendrix, I didn't see, you know, Clapton, I didn't see these guitar guys. I saw a card guy.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  So I learned that the, that cards, if you will, are, are my guitar and the words and the trick of the ballad.

• 4:23Speaker 00

  Sure, sure.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  So I did that piece, she liked it, I went and did her show and then she hit me up right away and she's like, yo, when can you come back?

• 4:29Lewis Howes?

  Ellen said this.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I don't, I don't think she realizes, but at the time I was playing in the NFL, which she knew, but like, this is expensive, like, I, I took a jet, cause I was like, I had to get there and get back. But I'm like, it's Ellen, I'll, I'll just fork up the cash. And so I flew back the same day, so I wouldn't miss practice the next day, right?

• 4:45Lewis Howes?

  So she's like. Well, you did America's Got Talent and you're still in the NFL then.

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, so when we did the lives, I was in training camp. So I was literally going back and forth, sometimes daily.

• 4:55Lewis Howes?

  That day, no way, man.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was doing at, at times three, four round trips a week. I never missed a practice.

• 5:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Never missed, I missed one team meeting that I got excused, cause there was a bombing threat at LAX and they shut down my red eye. And I was like, no. So basically what I'd do is I'd go to practice. And, and the only way this worked is I'm a long snapper.

• 5:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, if you had any other position, maybe a punter, maybe.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, but like quarterback receiver.

• 5:17Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  If I was actually an athlete, it wouldn't have worked, wouldn't have worked. And so I would go, we'd start at eight, and I would go all the way till about five o'clock.

• 5:24Lewis Howes?

  Here.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, in Philadelphia.

• 5:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, 8 a.m. to five.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so my training camp day, 8 a.m. to like five. And then there were other guys, like the position meetings had, would go till like eight. Alright, so I'm done at five. Rush to LAX, I got on the six o'clock American to LA. I would land, do an hour or two, a B-roll, interview, whatever I had to do, to then take the 10:15 or 10:30 red eye back to Philly to land at 7:15, to make my eight, to go back, to go back.

• 5:48Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  It was sick.

• 5:49Lewis Howes?

  So you'd do like two, three hours and then fly back?

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, whatever I had to do. Like, if they needed something, I just got on that flight and I, I jammed.

• 5:54Lewis Howes?

  Would you fly to LAX or Burbank?

• 5:57Speaker 02

  I probably should have flown into Burbank.

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  It's right there, right?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the red eye is at a LAX.

• 6:01Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  And there was no traffic at the time, so just, you know.

• 6:04Lewis Howes?

  So you would get in at like, what, eight o'clock?

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, whatever it was, and I'd literally have two hours.

• 6:08Lewis Howes?

  Shut up.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  I want to have two hours to just be as efficient as possible at times.

• 6:12Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 6:12Speaker 02

  You know, it was, looking back, it was probably one of the coolest times of my life, most hectic. And then, like I said, when I look back.

• 6:18Lewis Howes?

  Being on America's Got Talent.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Well, okay, so imagine.

• 6:21Lewis Howes?

  Doing Ellen.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, imagine being a kid, and, and all you'd want to do is be a professional athlete. And I wanted to be an awesome magician. I wanted to be a rock star, right? And, but I wanted to be a rock star in the magic world. And so at this time in my life, I was playing in the NFL, and performing on arguably, arguably the biggest stage, biggest show in the world.

• 6:38Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  Both perfections that I love were, were like. Eye to eye on the top levels. It was insane. You know, my advantage to doing that show is I didn't have time to overthink it. Like, I didn't have time. So like, I basically-

• 6:49Lewis Howes?

  You went like weeks of preparation. You were like, "All right, what's the trick gonna be tomorrow?"

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:53Lewis Howes?

  Let me figure this out.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  "Hey, guys, I gotta go play the Browns tomorrow." "We're playing Green Bay, so here's what I'm gonna do. I came up with this." "This is what I'm doing."

• 7:00Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  "I'll see you in two weeks."

• 7:02Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  You know, and it was crazy. And then, you know, I remember when the whole thing was done, we had two days off. I think we played like a Thursday night game. And then we were off Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and I literally slept for like three days.

• 7:12Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  I just caught up, because I'd just been, you know, grinding.

• 7:15Lewis Howes?

  You probably couldn't be nervous, because you were just tired. You were just like, "All right, I'm just gonna do the trick and perform."

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Well, you know, it's interesting that you say that. And, you know, as a professional athlete and a performer, that's probably the number one question you get asked. Like, "Aren't you nervous?" But the reality is, it comes to this. What sports have taught me in my life is preparation, process, prepare, right? And what I've learned is that if you're prepared,

• 7:35Lewis Howes?

  You're not nervous.

• 7:36Speaker 02

  You don't feel nervousness. You don't feel pressure.

• 7:38Lewis Howes?

  Feel excited.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  You're waiting.

• 7:40Lewis Howes?

  Anticipation, yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  The pressure is the moments that are between waiting and going. And all of a sudden, when it's go time, you forget everything. And it's literally the moment that you were meant to be in, you've trained for it, and you can't wait to get in that moment, because you know you're ready. And you know that you have this feeling that there's nobody in the world that deserves that position more. But to get to that, you gotta pay the price.

• 8:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  You know, and for me, in football, I took great pride that every time I went on the field, I felt like there's nobody in the world that's better for that team at that moment than me. And so, you know, a lot of people are like, "Well, how do you, you know, a snapper, there's a lot of pressure and this and that." And it's actually funny. I would actually pretend like I was an actor. Right? Who doesn't want to be an actor?

• 8:20Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  So I would pretend like I was an actor, and I'd be on the sideline, and I'm like, "Okay." If I was like, the biggest badass, longest snapper in the world, what would that be?

• 8:30Lewis Howes?

  Step into it.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Step into it.

• 8:32Lewis Howes?

  I used to do that in high school, playing football as well, just have an alter ego.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 8:36Lewis Howes?

  And just become that person. Right when I crossed the lines, I just became Jerry Rice.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:41Lewis Howes?

  And I was like, "I am Jerry Rice." Because he wasn't known as like the fastest guy, but he was like the most precise. He caught everything. And I was like, "This is who I am." And it made me overcome that insecurity or fear if there was someone on their team that looked faster or whatever. I was like, "No, I am Jerry Rice."

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 8:55Lewis Howes?

  Just cross the field. It's like every time a pitcher crosses like the line, it's like they step into this alter ego, and that's powerful.

• 9:02Speaker 02

  I totally get it. And, but the advantage to that too is- And I think this is important for myself was I never wanted to be identified as any one thing like, "Oh, John the football player," right? Or "John the magician." It's like, look, this is a part of who I am. But I feel like whatever the public perceives you as, that's their choice, right? They might see me as just a football guy. They might see me as a hack of a magician. It doesn't matter. But it's what do I feel about me and how do I feel about myself and what am I doing with my life? When you become that alter ego, you can step out of it.

• 9:34Lewis Howes?

  At any time.

• 9:34Speaker 02

  At any time because you've you've become it. But it is what it is. But then guess what? I can come back to me. And then as a magician, boom. I can.

• 9:44Lewis Howes?

  You can step into the David Copperfield role or whatever it is you wanted to be.

• 9:47Speaker 02

  And then I can come back to me.

• 9:49Lewis Howes?

  What would you do? What was the process for creating that alter ego or stepping into that?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  I guess in the alter ego, it's more it's more in the football world. Like I had to literally psych myself up that I'm good enough because these guys are huge.

• 9:59Lewis Howes?

  Huge, fast, strong.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Huge. And I didn't realize it until years into my into my career. I was standing next to Jason Peters and Brent Selig and there was a picture taken of us. And I remember looking like I'm a five-year-old kid right now. Like I feel like I should be going like this, holding their hands.

• 10:13Lewis Howes?

  They're giants, monsters.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Monsters, dude. And then when I got out of the game and I went back, I just remember looking around going, I literally ran around with these dudes. These guys are freaks of nature.

• 10:22Lewis Howes?

  Huge.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Huge. But when you're in it, you kind of lose lose the kind of the reality of like what normal size is. Because like around my friends, six foot, 250, 255, I'm a big guy.

• 10:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  They're, I'm nothing, you know? So that was a trip, but it was, you know, when I perform, I'm just me. But I think that comes into where the confidence comes in, where the preparation comes in.

• 10:43Lewis Howes?

  You did the practicing for 20 years or something, 30 years.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  27 years.

• 10:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. So you were prepared for America's Got Talent. It wasn't like, I've been doing this for three years. I don't know how to perform in front of people. You're performing every day, right? With your teammates, with friends.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  And I think when I did America's Got Talent and. When you really find out who are you as a performer, you know, it's like, okay, you have all these influences, right? But the world doesn't need another Copperfield. The world doesn't need another David Blaine. And nor do I want to be them. I love them.

• 11:09Lewis Howes?

  David Blaine's amazing.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Dude, there's a lot of magicians that I love. There's a lot of magicians that I love that, but I despise. Like, I would never want to be you. Like, I think it's so cheesy, but I'm in the guy. Oh, yes, that was awesome. I love this guy, just don't be that, right? But what ends up happening is you find out who you are. And what I realized is I can, I can talk to a crowd. And, and to me, I realized that for me, like music, right? I want to be a rock star, but I picked up cards. That's the tool. So there's a lot of magicians where the trick is the end all be all. And if that's it, well, then the trick is your show, right? But if the trick becomes a tool, if a trick becomes a song, to create an emotion, to create a connection in an audience, or to make something relative in a moment of time, well, now it's not about the trick, it's about the moment.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  I'm gonna feel really bad because two people have quoted this. I read it, I think it was George Carlin. You know, they're not, they're not gonna remember what you said. They're not gonna remember the joke or what you did. But they're gonna remember, remember how you feel.

• 12:04Lewis Howes?

  How you made them feel.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  How you made them feel, right? And that's gonna make them come back. And so I, I found out that in my show, it's my life story. And I use magic along the way, on where I was at different points to how I grieved and how I found happiness and how I came out of it.

• 12:18Lewis Howes?

  You tell your life story throughout the show.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:20Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Everything. The good, the good, the bad, the ugly, finding forgiveness.

• 12:24Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's cool.

• 12:26Lewis Howes?

  You have a crazy story about you're 12 years old, right? And your, your dad kills your mom, which is crazy, and he doesn't tell you about it. Well, you're going to practice with him and then he turns himself in afterwards with your mom in the truck or something crazy, right?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, so one of those things where my dad was, the guy's my hero. The guy's my favorite person in the world. You know, we played catch every day, coached my teams, president of Little League. You know, I wanted to be Ken Griffey Jr. and Jay B. and I grew up in Seattle. And I wanted to be a baseball player. And so every night he'd come home and if it was dark, we'd turn the lights on right in the car at the top of the driveway. He'd give me an American pop fly and we'd do it over and over. And I'd catch it and I'd version that guy as Griffey.

• 13:05Lewis Howes?

  So he was like an active dad.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:08Lewis Howes?

  He was there for you. He was supportive, giving, caring, attentive.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  To my sister and my brother and I, yeah. Yeah. And my mom was my other favorite person and um, look, I'm not, I didn't have a learning disability. I'm not claiming I did, I'm not looking for sympathy, but reading comprehension was really difficult for me in school. And I needed to be placed in like special reading programs. I did too, yeah. My mom helped start this program to basically make a reading visual. And so that helped me. And all of a sudden, cool kids started to come. And all of a sudden, people liked my mom, like she was cool, right? And so what my mom taught me is that you can struggle, you can be different. You don't have to be good at what everybody else is, but there's still a purpose for you. And there's still, there's still a lane in this world for you. You just gotta figure out what it is.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  And so we lived the Brady Bunch family and when I came home, I was across the street playing football, you know, just backyard stuff with some friends. And I didn't know this at the time, but my dad murdered my mom. And he used a bench grinder and a sledgehammer. And it was really bad. Brutal. Brutal. Wow. So I came home and now looking back in hindsight, Monday quarterback, right? He kept me out of the garage where it happened. Uh, we played a few games. A friend of his came over. How does he play a few games with you after he just did this? I think he snapped out. Like I think he snapped and then he snapped out and realized I was coming home. And he had to be there for you. Yeah, he had to figure out what the heck's going on. And so I think, and, and look, I, I sometimes, well, not sometimes, all the time.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  I try and put myself in other people's shoes. And I, I said, man, if I was him, what would I have done? Right. What, what would you do, right? You either lose it and run. Mm-hmm. You either kill your son when he comes home or kill yourself. Yeah. Or, see, all these things go, and then all of a sudden. Wow. You don't agree with what happened, but maybe you understand why they acted the way that they did. If you can just put yourself in those shoes. Yeah. And so he kept me from it, got me off to a baseball camp the next morning, and then he ended up turning himself in. You know, in the trial, there's speculation every which direction and um, you know, I, we think he tried to get away with it and painted the garage. And I think maybe he just. Thought he wasn't going to. And then in the state of Washington at the time, second degree murder was a max sentence of 13 years.

• 15:21Lewis Howes?

  That's it?

• 15:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it. So you probably do the math. If I run, it's probably gonna go down as first degree on life. Right, and I'm gonna get caught. I kill myself, do I wanna die? Or if I turn myself in, I'm facing a max of 13, I'd probably serve 11, and I'd probably get out when I'm 50.

• 15:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Like, they're still alive.

• 15:37Lewis Howes?

  Pretty good life.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  I mean, for the trade?

• 15:40Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy, man.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  For what you did?

• 15:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I mean, for the crime, it's crazy.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  So my sister and I went into temporary foster homes. My brother was 18 at the time.

• 15:47Lewis Howes?

  Before you go on, my brother went to jail for four and a half years for first account of selling LSD. So it's like you go to jail for, it was six to 25 sentence. We got on four and a half on good behavior when I was 12 years old. But to crime of murdering someone, it'd only be six or seven more years, it's crazy.

• 16:06Speaker 02

  Crazy. So what ended up happening is, I think he turned himself in. So now all of a sudden, his attorneys are like, look, the only reason he did what he did was to protect him. Well, yeah, self-defense, and then temporary insanity.

• 16:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  And I think the argument that his attorneys made is, he didn't turn himself in right away, cuz his son was coming home, he didn't know what to do. He protected his son, got his son off, and then turned himself in.

• 16:26Lewis Howes?

  The next day, yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  And, and, and, look, now I'm, now I'm an old, you know, I'm older? Okay, I get it, whether that was his motive or not.

• 16:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  That's the way, I think it was spun, and it made sense to people, right? So now, it is now second degree, and it was a, you can label it a crime of passion, you can label it whatever you want, the guy snapped and snapped out of it.

• 16:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 16:47Speaker 02

  And...

• 16:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow. So did you talk to your dad after that, and when he was in jail?

• 16:51Speaker 02

  So, yeah, so for, well, there's a few months there where, you know, he's in jail and not convicted yet.

• 16:57Lewis Howes?

  He's in trial.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  He's in trial, yeah, so you're trying to figure out what's going on. And, and again, a lot of reflection as life goes, and I've hit certain ages that my parents got to, that my aunt that ended up raising me got to, and reflected on the decisions that they made to help my sister and I. And think about this. My dad goes to prison, turns himself in for murdering my mom, which is my aunt's best friend, her sister, which is my grandparents' daughter, right? They're driving my sister and I to go see him.

• 17:23Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  And they would wait outside. But they were like, as much as this is killing us and stabbing us, we really believe that, that if we don't tell these kids the way they have to think, they're never gonna resent us. And instead, it's gonna make sense to them. Like, they're gonna figure this out. But I think we have to let them figure it out. To go see their dad and. Whatever that process was. Wow. So my sister and I was in super intense therapy that was mandated by the state and my aunt and grandparents. My therapist was amazing. We would do individual sessions throughout the week and then my sister and I would do a group session with them throughout the week. And yeah, we would go see him at the county jail and it was very, you know, and I kept a journal, right? And I've never read it until we wrote this book.

• 18:09Speaker 02

  And it's every day for two years. Wow. Every emotion, everything I did, everything I felt. And, uh, you know, we would go see him and a lot of it was just, hey, how's the weather? And like, you know, he couldn't talk about it, nor as a 12 year old, did you ever think about asking because at that time, in your mind, it's also fake. Like this is a dream. Crazy. So like for me to go to the prison and say, Dad, why did you do that? I'm going to the jail to talk to my dad, knowing he's coming home tomorrow. Mm hmm. Thinking he's gonna get out. Thinking he's gonna get out because this isn't, this is just a big mistake. Yeah. Like, you know, this didn't happen. So your conversation is completely skewed and steered because you don't have any concept of reality. Wow. And I was 12 years old.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  And now for kids today, today's a lot different because the internet exposure, information, violence, you're just exposed to so much more. But when we grew up at 12. You didn't know anyone that killed anyone. I had RBI baseball. Yeah, yeah. Like I didn't have the internet to know that there's people murdering and gangs and all this evil stuff. So you're not, you know, back in the day, you weren't exposed to the evil side of life probably until you got into high school or college. Right. Cause you just didn't see it, right? Or at least where I grew up. Parents are protecting you. Yeah. You've got a routine, you're playing sports, going home, having dinner. You don't even know that the evil world exists. So now you're 12 years old and you're exposed to a side of the world that you didn't know existed. You gotta grow up fast, real fast. Make a decision on who you want to be, you know? Do you, do you live in vision or do you live in circumstance? Do you make this an excuse?

• 19:35Speaker 02

  And now, are you saying these words as a kid? No, but it's all happening, whether you realize it or not. I had the greatest help imaginable. So then, yeah, my sister and I went through about a year, year and a half of therapy. And then the final closing, if you will, was basically my therapist said, okay, we're gonna go see your dad. He's now sentenced and he's at Wal Wal State Penitentiary. And you're gonna tell him whatever you want. You've now had a year and a half to process this. Your reality is now, it's set in, like you know what it is, you've accepted it. So now, what would you like to say to him? Knowing that this isn't a nightmare or a dream and knowing you're not gonna wake up and this happened. Right. I mean, that's, that's deep, right? What'd you say? Well, and then the other thing that was powerful to me is,

• 20:18Speaker 02

  after that happened, and we'll get to that, the therapist basically gave us a hug and said, okay, I'm done. Like you kids are- You're on your own. Like, we're probably never gonna talk again. Really? And that's part of closure. Really? Acceptance. Wow. Knowing that there's journeys, there's beginnings, there's ends. And that good things can happen, bad things can happen, but, but when that chapter closes, it's okay. It's okay. Time to move on. It's okay, kids. Like, I've done my job and it's time to move on. And rock on. I think I've given you guys a foundation of who you are and who you wanna be. And the tools to move forward when you're, yeah. Go spread your wings. Wow. So yeah, so I, uh, my sister and I and my aunt flew with us to all the state penitentiary and, and this was probably, since the end of the trial, we, we didn't see him or have communication.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  When we would go see him at the county, you're talking through glass. But it's not real, right? Now you get to see him, you can touch him, you could hug him. Well, no, no, it was still behind glass. Really? At the prison? Yeah. But I, I think for me, it was the realization of, when I would go see him at the county jail, like I said, it was all a dream. Yeah, he's coming back. You're not taking in the fact that like, you can't touch him and there's a phone, you, you don't take that in. Well, now a year and a half goes by, you've accepted your reality. And now you walk in and everything, every sense, every observation is just magnified 'cause you're like, okay, I, I get this now. This is real. This is real. And, uh, we walk in and just, just the coldness, the cement, the clank of the doors, like the echoing of the intercoms and the guards and the jingling of keys, like all this stuff,

• 21:45Speaker 02

  was like in a movie where everything goes quiet and you just hear that one sound. Just super loud, right? Sat down, and then all of a sudden, it was glass. And I, I remember going- Wow. Okay, and then he comes in and, you know, and his scrubs or whatever you call him and then picks up the phone and it's like, oh my gosh, like this is your life now, this is my life.

• 22:07Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  And, um, you know, that, that, that conversation was a blur. You know, there's a lot of things that I, I remember and I don't remember. I feel bad, we love to cut like cuss or no?

• 22:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  I mean,

• 22:19Lewis Howes?

  Bleep out certain stuff.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Cause it's, it's quoted, right? I just remember saying, shut the F up.

• 22:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Like this is my time now.

• 22:27Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:28Speaker 02

  And I'm the man of this house.

• 22:29Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And you're like thirteen, fourteen?

• 22:32Speaker 02

  And,

• 22:32Lewis Howes?

  You're the youngest of?

• 22:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was the youngest of three.

• 22:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  So my, it was my brother, three years later, my sister, three years later, me.

• 22:39Lewis Howes?

  Was he trying to give you some instructions or something or you just said?

• 22:43Speaker 02

  Nope. He was just sitting there. Some words were exchanged. I mean, I think both of us got emotional at times and then I remember saying, F you. And he said, F me, F you.

• 22:53Lewis Howes?

  Wow, he said it back to you?

• 22:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:55Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 22:55Speaker 02

  I'll never forget. And then,

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  Why would he say that?

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Well.

• 22:59Lewis Howes?

  Why wouldn't he just say, you know what? You're right. I'm sorry. I messed up.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  It's a great question and I've spent so many years thinking of that. And then it comes down to you become an adult. I became an adult. And I said, well, you know what? And I remember writing this book. I remember going, God dang. If I were him, well, what I've done.

• 23:19Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. In that moment?

• 23:21Speaker 02

  In that moment.

• 23:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, wow.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  And then I said, you know what?

• 23:25Speaker 02

  I probably would have done the same thing.

• 23:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow, why?

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Because the kids forgetting about me or hating me is probably going to be the best thing for them to move on.

• 23:34Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  Like, am I going to drag these kids through this? Now, whether that was his motive or not, that's not what this is about. I'm not justifying his actions. I'm not, I'm not agreeing with what he did. But if it were me. Why would I have done that?

• 23:48Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  And, and you know what? This is what I've learned too, is that whether that's his motive or not, it's irrelevant. But if I can come to peace at why he did it within the own story that I tell myself, and I can understand, that's all that matters. And I said, man, I wonder if, you know, what, what, what am I gonna? Drag these kids to like, what am I gonna, like, you know what?

• 24:06Lewis Howes?

  Thirteen years coming here every week with me, yeah.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  I'm out.

• 24:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  So you know what? F you, kid.

• 24:12Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  And then I left and that was it.

• 24:14Lewis Howes?

  And that was the last time you saw him? You didn't even call him?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  No, no, so I, I, I learned years later that there was a deal made where I, I guess if our family didn't sue him civilly, he would do nothing about contacting us, fighting for custody, he would basically, I'm out.

• 24:33Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  And I get it, take the kids, I'm out.

• 24:36Lewis Howes?

  But you didn't sue him?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  If, yeah, because you have a, you have a criminal trial, right?

• 24:40Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  Then you have a civil trial. And the civil trial could be money, it could be anything. Yeah, so I think from what my understanding was is, don't sue me civilly, I'm out.

• 24:49Lewis Howes?

  And you guys do what you wanna do?

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:51Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  And I, you know, as, as an adult, I respect it.

• 24:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  From my family's side, my aunt and, and my grandparents, and from his side.

• 25:01Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  That they, they did what they thought was best for the kids, and that was me.

• 25:05Lewis Howes?

  What, um, when did he get out?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Just a few years ago, at Thanksgiving.

• 25:09Lewis Howes?

  Wow, Thanksgiving Day?

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, Thanksgiving dinner.

• 25:12Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  In fact, uh, we were playing the Detroit Lions in Detroit, and we played an afternoon game on Thursday. Chip Kelly said, hey, you guys are off Friday, Saturday, Sunday. If you guys wanna fly out of Detroit and go home and have Thanksgiving dinner in California, we go ahead. So myself, Mark Sanchez and a couple of guys, we got a flight. We bounced out and I went home for Thanksgiving. At the time, it was my girlfriend, which is my wife now, we were engaged girlfriend, I don't remember, but we were together. And it kinda, a couple glasses of wine, telling some stories. And, and, and what's, what's great is the conversation was all positive.

• 25:44Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  You know, like-

• 25:45Lewis Howes?

  You were telling her he's getting out today, or you knew that he was getting out?

• 25:48Speaker 02

  No, so he had gotten out years and years and years and years ago.

• 25:50Lewis Howes?

  Oh, good.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  But when we, I'm sorry, when we went back for that Thanksgiving dinner, there's been times where we've had conversations about my family that just get heated and, and too emotional. And then there's times where we've had conversations about our past within my family that it's, it's actually a good conversation, like it was actually- It didn't go down this really negative depressing path. And that Thanksgiving dinner was one of those conversations where Annalise was there and it just, it was just a good conversation that was, we talked about our past, but like, the vibe was that, hey, we're live.

• 26:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  And it just kinda came out that like, you know, when, when that all happened, we just agreed to not sue him civilly and he wouldn't contact you and this and that. And I'd never heard that. And I was like, and I didn't make an issue of it, but I was like, okay, that's actually pretty cool. Like, I, I totally get that.

• 26:36Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  And then I instantly go into what I've done. If these were my brother's kids or something, you know what? I probably would've done the same thing.

• 26:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  And what's funny is, you know, adults, they've been there, done that. You know, and so, the, the, the beautiful part or the silver lining of that decision was now if I ever wanted to contact my dad or my sister or my brother, it'd be our decision. Like, we wouldn't have a pressure of an email or phone or whatever. He basically wasn't allowed to.

• 27:07Lewis Howes?

  He wasn't allowed to.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:09Lewis Howes?

  So he'd been out for how many years?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  So he's been out longer than he was in, right? So I think he got released in like, 2004.

• 27:17Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  So he got, he went in in 92. And served, what, 11, 12 years?

• 27:21Lewis Howes?

  So you knew when he got out and, but you didn't contact him, he didn't contact you, wasn't allowed to.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and nor did I have any really desire at, at that time. I didn't really care either way. But you know what? I would, I would always think like, you know, he, we lived in Woodville and in Seattle. Uh, I knew he was out in that area.

• 27:38Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 27:38Speaker 02

  And, you know, I remember when we played the Seahawks.

• 27:41Lewis Howes?

  I knew he was gonna be there.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  I would just look around.

• 27:42Lewis Howes?

  Shut up.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  And I'd be like, you know what? I haven't seen this guy in a long, long time. But I feel like if I see him, I'll just, I'll know.

• 27:51Lewis Howes?

  What would you do if you saw him at a game or something?

• 27:52Speaker 02

  I don't know. But I remember walking out for pre-games and stuff and if I was sitting on the bench.

• 27:57Lewis Howes?

  You'd look around and be like, is he behind me? Is he?

• 28:00Speaker 02

  Not, not in a scared way, you know, not, not in an intimidated way, not, not in a, I, I don't know how else to describe it, other than it's, for me, it was curiosity.

• 28:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I wonder if he's curious enough to come.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or just.

• 28:11Lewis Howes?

  Did he ever come to a game? Did he ever watch a game on TV or anything? I don't know.

• 28:16Speaker 02

  I mean, how do you not? I mean, you know? But then again, would I be shocked either way? So wait, have you talked to him since? Yeah. What happened? So, a lot of years went by. And I got married and my wife got pregnant. And all of a sudden, a flow of emotions came back to me. Can imagine, man. And I had thought that the book was done. And I just got out of open heart surgery. This is a whole nother crazy story. Yeah. Well, why don't we get back to it? We'll get to that, right? This is crazy. All of a sudden, my wife gets pregnant and I start feeling all these emotions of being a dad. And then I started thinking about everything that my dad and I missed out on.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  And about two, three, yeah, about three weeks before my wife delivered our daughter, I looked at her and I said, "I think I want to see my dad." And I realized that I'd never, like, just hung out with him. I'd never had lunch with my dad as an adult. And, and as I grew up, you know, my buddy Paul and John and Danny and my friends, they'd be like, "Yo, hey, you know, we're gonna meet my dad. You wanna come?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's go." And I remember they would just sit and like, go get pizza with their dad or like just- Ice cream or- Yeah, just hang out, right? As they got into junior high and high school and college and like, I saw those relationships develop with them. And then when I was about to have my daughter, I realized I didn't, you know, I had an uncle that my aunt married for a while that raised me, that was an amazing influence on me and was a great role model,

• 29:44Speaker 02

  but it's still not your dad. So I told my, my wife, I go, "You know what? I, I think I want to sit and have lunch with my dad." Now, the hard part is, I wanted to do this alone. And I didn't really want anybody to go with me. And nor did I tell anyone. Because probably for one of the first times in my life, I really didn't care what you had to say. Wow. I didn't care your opinion. I didn't care if you agree with me, if you disagree with me. I didn't need to hear anybody else's opinion on the decision that I wanted to make for me. You were doing this no matter what? I was doing it no matter what. Wow. And I just didn't care what anybody else thought. Right, and your wife was on board? She was okay with it? She was on board, but I, I wanted to do it alone. Yeah. And I know for a fact that I wouldn't have had the heart to say, "Stay behind." Because she, she just wanted to be in the hotel room, just wanted to be there. And, and my wife's amazing, right?

• 30:27Speaker 02

  Ironically, the timing just worked out. She couldn't travel anyways. Right. Yeah, so like, and, and none of that was premeditated or pre- it just, that's just the way it all happened, right? So I was performing in Calgary, Canada, and I was heading to Vegas. Doing a magic show. Yeah, and I sent an email. Still playing in the NFL or no? No, so I'm done playing, after, yeah. So this whole thing just happened, like a few months ago. Shut up, dude. Yeah, this whole, five months ago. And so I'd been out of the league two years, and I shot an email. Actually, the NFL did a piece, and I contacted him. And they said, hey, do you want to do this? And he said, unless everybody comes forward, and it's okay with all my kids, I'm out. And so, you know, he goes, it's not fair to everybody else. Unless all the kids come.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Unless the entire family come to me and say, hey, we would like you to do this interview, I'll do it. If not, I'm out. Oh, wow. And so, but, but I knew that they had his contact info. And I'd never asked for it. I didn't care at the time, because that was years ago. So I hit up the guy that did the piece and said, hey, by any chance, do you still have my dad's email? He shot it to me. Wow. So I shot my dad an email that said, it said, hey, I don't really know what to say. I have no expectations. I don't want anything from you. But if you want to sit and have coffee sometime, let me know. Holy cow. This is what, 20 years after you'd seen him? 27. Holy cow. 26. Yeah. And sure enough, he wrote me back and said, I've been waiting for your time to be right. I would love that. I don't really know what to say either. Wow. 26 years you've been waiting for you to reach out to him?

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, if it were me, you know, I mean, you're kind of waiting for your time to be right. Wow. You know, and so, we basically set it up that I was gonna go from Canada to Vegas. I just stopped and sat with him for five and a half hours. Where was he? He was living in Vegas? No, he was living up in the Washington area. Got you. Wow. Yeah, and so I knew where he was at, so I stopped there. We met at a- Coffee shop? Yeah. Five and a half hours? Yeah, we spent five and a half hours. And, and I'm telling you- What was that like? Every emotion you can imagine, played out. And I remember- Rage, anger, sadness, love, joy, everything. So-

• 32:26Speaker 02

  I went in with kind of the emotional wherewithal and the self-awareness of, okay, I'm not there for him. Right. So at the end of the day, I literally, I talk to myself. And it's like a coach talking to me. Sure, sure. And I literally go, at the end of the day, John, it doesn't matter what he says. It doesn't matter his opinion, it doesn't matter, you don't need validation. Doesn't need to say sorry, yeah. Nothing. If he does, great, but if he doesn't, are you shocked, right? So just manage expectations. Like, you're not there for him, you're there for you. Remember that. Don't get caught up in the moment. Don't let the moment affect why you're there. Get too emotional. No, just, just. Reactive. Just be there for you. Wow. And it was kind of like a game.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Like, when the moment comes, everything quiets. And it's just the moment, and all of a sudden, that's all you feel. Like, you don't even feel or hear anything around you, you're just, you're in your lane. It's Kevin Costner in For the Love of the Game when he's pigeon. Clear the mechanism, it just fades. And I remember, when he walked in, instantly recognized him. You did recognize him, yeah. The energy, his face. Just his face, yeah. Yeah. And I didn't really know what to expect. You know, I didn't know. He looked old and weathered, did he? Yeah. And he looked at me and he goes, "You got big." And I looked at him and go, "You got old." You know? And we sat down. And I remember. You shake, did you hug? Shake, yeah. And then we sat down, we ordered some food.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  And when I say every emotion happened, I remember there was probably five or 10 seconds. You just wanted to? No, no, I blinked, and I told myself, "I just want to have lunch with my dad." Wow. "I just want to have lunch with my dad, I don't want to forget everything." Wow. "And I just want to sit here." And I remember looking around and there was, you know, a teenager and an adult. I just figured, that's probably a dad and a kid, right? And then I remember looking around going, if anybody in this area were to look at this table right now, with my dad and I, they would not think that this is a man that just killed this kid's mom, and they haven't seen each other in 26 years. Wow. And I just remember observing everybody else, and then that lasted like five or 10 seconds, and you just...

• 34:39Speaker 02

  The movie, the role's over, right? The little play date's over. And then reality kicks in. And I remember just, it was small talk. And um.

• 34:49Lewis Howes?

  How's your day? How are things going? What's it like being out? Whatever, yeah.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  And then I just said, hey, like, how did you survive? How did you survive? I mean, you're not a gang guy. You have no, you know?

• 35:01Lewis Howes?

  In prison.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  In prison, like, how'd you survive? And I'll never forget what he said. He goes, it was an accident.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  I survived on accident.

• 35:10Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then we talked about some things that, you know, I won't get into.

• 35:14Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  And then.

• 35:16Lewis Howes?

  He probably went through a lot in prison. Probably had to deal with.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  It's prison.

• 35:20Lewis Howes?

  It's probably more pain than just killing yourself. You know, more emotional trauma. It's a lot of trauma.

• 35:25Speaker 02

  Well, look, I've, you know, he didn't disclose a lot about what happened behind the walls.

• 35:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:29Speaker 02

  But I've seen, ever since he got locked up and the documentaries came out, I've watched them all on prison.

• 35:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  I mean, you're a white male that went in there for a hate crime on a woman.

• 35:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  Like, you're not exactly, you're up there with.

• 35:41Lewis Howes?

  Liked.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  You're in the same list as pedophiles. As when it comes to inmate respect.

• 35:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  So what he went through is, that's his demons, right?

• 35:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  But I remember, I would, I would, at the moment, I all of a sudden wanted answers.

• 35:56Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. Why'd you do this? What happened? What did mom do?

• 35:59Speaker 02

  All right, I'm gonna go way back, dude. I gotta go way back.

• 36:01Lewis Howes?

  Go.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  So we were at the trial when I'm 12 years old. And they're gonna show the autopsy photos of my mom.

• 36:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  And my therapist said, hey.

• 36:10Lewis Howes?

  Don't look.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Looked at my sister and I and said, I want you guys to see these.

• 36:12Lewis Howes?

  I want you to see this. Oh, my God, to see what your dad did.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 36:15Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  And then when the trial happened, the autopsy photos were angled so only the jurors could see it. The cameras couldn't see it. The people watching couldn't see it. My therapist got upset. So he went. And we were the first minors to ever get a private court order for a viewing of an autopsy photo. So we went downtown to the prosecutor's office. And I'll never forget, they walked in, dropped the folder, and said, I can't believe you're doing this to these kids. And they kind of walked out. So my sister and I are just sitting there, dude, you're just sweating. Oh my gosh. My heart's just racing. Now, now, keep in mind, I don't even know what this is. You're like, what's going on? I'm 12. Yeah. I don't even know what I'm getting into. The people are mad at the therapist. For wanting this. And I'll never forget, she leaves, and he just very calmly turned. And he said, you know what, guys? I don't even care if you look at it.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Who said this? My therapist. He goes, everybody thinks I want you to do this. And everybody thinks it's a bad idea. But why should it be anybody else's decision? He goes, here it is. If you want to, look at it. If not, we can walk. Yep. We can go away. Wow. So he said, I'm gonna leave. You either look or not, and I won't even ask you. But if, if it's up to me, this is your decision. This is your life. And I would wanna know. Yeah. Well, he gets up, and right before he walks out that door, he looks at my sister and I and says, I know how the world works. I'm trying to get you guys to understand what forgiveness can do to you. So, if you're in your 30s or 40s, maybe you have kids, maybe you don't. But if you ever decide to have lunch with your dad, and to meet him again and to talk,

• 37:47Speaker 02

  it'll be for reasons other than what happened. Because that right there is what happened. And I know that doesn't sound like a popular decision right now, and I know nobody else out there is saying, go see your dad in 20 years, but if you do, it'll be for reasons other than what happened. Hmm. It's your call. So sure enough, he walks out, and I peeked. And I saw it. Wow. And some were bad, really bad. Yeah. But the ones I remember were the bruises on her hand. She had little bruises. And that was from her trying to protect herself. Oh my gosh. Those are the ones that I remember. And so, I never, once that day happened, we went to the Puget Sound, we stood on a cliff, and we just screamed. He's like, just scream, all you want. I couldn't tell you how long I was there.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  And after that moment, I never thought about it. Wow, you let it out. Yeah, you let it go. Just let it go. And I never had nightmares about it. I never, I never thought about it. Until I'm about to be a dad.

• 38:43Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  And then I told my wife, it's time. And I remember being on the plane, looking outside going,

• 38:53Speaker 02

  you son of a bitch. I'm seeing my dad for reasons other than wanting to know what happened.

• 38:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  And it just came full circle.

• 39:00Lewis Howes?

  Holy cow, I just got the chills.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  But now I'm there sitting with my dad.

• 39:05Lewis Howes?

  Cause you didn't need to know what happened, you saw what happened.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  I saw it. So no matter what he said.

• 39:09Lewis Howes?

  You're like, I saw what you did.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  I saw it. There's nothing you can say to change that.

• 39:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you can't persuade me in another way, like I saw what happened. You could have stopped at any moment. You could have maybe hit her once and been like, whoa, what am I doing?

• 39:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:21Lewis Howes?

  You didn't have to finish it, right?

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Oh, he finished it.

• 39:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:25Lewis Howes?

  So what did you?

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Well, so now you're taking all this, I'm taking all this in. And now when I'm sitting there with him, uh, I wanted answers.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  I did.

• 39:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I would too.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  And you know what? I know what happened, but I want to know what happened.

• 39:40Lewis Howes?

  Are you gonna lie or are you gonna?

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. I want to know. And it was that, there's that fine line right there. That I didn't come there to debate, I didn't come there to argue, I didn't come there to prove a point. So I just subtly asked, what happened? Yeah, and like I said, I just subtly asked and then.

• 39:55Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like he was authentic and honest about it or was he?

• 39:58Speaker 02

  At times.

• 39:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  At times in the conversation I do. And then at times in the conversation, I just felt like it's kind of, it's just shut off.

• 40:04Lewis Howes?

  He's probably also like, had to block out a lot of stuff and so much trauma that, you know, not saying it's okay, but stepping in his shoes, it's probably just like, maybe it was this way, maybe it was that way, like.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  So you just, you just brought up a really interesting concept. And I asked him. I asked him that exact question and I was prepared for two answers that I was perfectly, that I was totally okay accepting. You did it, you're in prison. Do you either bottle it up and forget about it? Or you just come to peace with yourself and say, I did it and you're over it and you move on. And it is what it is. And you know what? If you don't agree, screw the world.

• 40:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Those are the two things that it's like, and you know what? I get both.

• 40:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  I totally get both. And it's not about whether he was right or wrong. It's not about whether I agree with what he did or not. But I can step back and say, I get both.

• 40:50Lewis Howes?

  And what are you saying?

• 40:51Speaker 02

  He just said he came to terms. And I don't really know if I believe him, you know? I think it's, I think it's part coming to terms and part just. Turn it off. Just turn it off, put it in a bottle and toss it. I think there's a, I think there's a combination. So here's what happens. So now I want answers. I want to know what happened. And I would ask some questions and it didn't really go anywhere. Yeah. And then the, the subject would get trained and it would be a, you know, changed to like po- politics or like, you know, the problems with, you know, prisons and, and drugs and all this. It'd just kind of go off on a tangent. And I would just kind of take a deep breath and just step back and say, okay, you know what? That's not what I'm here. Mm hmm. It's not what I'm here. Right. And so after about five and a half hours, he apologized not for doing what he did, but for causing pain. Hmm.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  And this was the moment that took me back to when I was 14 and when I was 22. So my mom died and when she died, there we, she had a jewelry box that my grandparents and my aunt found and then they opened it up and she had necklaces in there for my brother and my sister and I. Mm hmm. And when we, when we would have turned 18, she was going to give us those necklaces. It was a Saint Christopher. And so sure enough, my, my family gives it to me and I wore it everywhere. So I go to the beach. I jump in the ocean in Huntington Beach, so we moved down to Southern California with my Aunt Susan. And I remember being at the beach and I got out of the ocean and it was gone. Oh. Devastated. How old were you? Like 14, 15. I was devastated. And I, I looked for it, like I would go back and look in the sand.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  Dude, I literally, I didn't have any money. I gave the, there was like a guy with a metal detector. I'm like, dude, I'll give you five bucks if you find this necklace, right? And he's like, he didn't find it. But after looking for it and after being like, like depressed about it, feeling like I lost my mom. There was a defining moment in my life when I was looking at the ocean and I said, you know what? I didn't lose it. It's not my fault. I was never meant to have it. Hmm. And it became the defining moment of I can change the story in my own head. Mm hmm. To make sense of what happened, to believe it in a different way. That's a little bit more romantic about life and it'll motivate me. Yeah. And I can take a negative and find motivation within it. Right. And I told myself that my mom always wanted to go to Australia. Hmm. And so it hopped on a whale and went over to Hawaii. My gosh.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  And a sea turtle took it to Australia and then she went to Thailand and Japan. And now all of a sudden. My mom's been all over the world and so now whenever I see the ocean, I know she's been there and done that and there she is. And so now losing that necklace, which I thought was gonna be an awful thing, it ended up being probably the coolest thing to this day. Cause I know where she's at. So then I turned 22, I go back to that same beach. And I remember looking out into the ocean, I said, "Mom, I look, I went through all this therapy and I, I forgive dad." And at that moment, I felt so guilty because I was conflicted that I thought that my mom was gonna hate me for it and resent me and thought I was picking sides. And I remember going, "Okay, I'm gonna turn it.

• 43:46Speaker 02

  If you want me to be the man you want me to be, I gotta get rid of this." Like, there's somebody in my life that's affecting my life that's no longer in my life. That's my fault. And so all of a sudden I started-

• 43:56Lewis Howes?

  If this is not saying it's about them being right or wrong-

• 43:58Speaker 02

  It's not.

• 43:59Lewis Howes?

  It's about you being at peace-

• 44:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 44:01Lewis Howes?

  With whatever's happening-

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 44:02Lewis Howes?

  And you letting it go, so it doesn't rule your life.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 44:05Lewis Howes?

  It's not power over you.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. And now that, that right there is so deep. Because forgiveness, it's not really talked about in school. And I think that myself and a lot of people just think it's about winning and losing. If I forgive you, it's because I'm okay with what you did and let's just move on with our lives, right? And at that moment, I realized it's not. It has nothing to do with what that person did. It had nothing to do with whether I agree with what that person did. It has nothing to do if I still have a relationship with that person. How do I come to peace in terms of my reality? To find some positive energy to make something of myself. And I had to let go of this burden and this, the hating, the blaming. Like, I just had to get rid of this cloud. So I read a quote that Nelson Mandela had. I might get it wrong, but I'll paraphrase. Guy goes to prison, we all know.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  When he's in prison, he gathers the inmates and says, "Hey, if they don't have our souls, we're free men." He goes, "I was free in prison." I got out of prison and became so bitter at the time lost that I wasn't in prison until I mentally put myself in prison when I was a free man. And I went, "Whoa."

• 45:09Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Crazy. And so he had to like, get rid of this bitterness of time lost to free his own mind even though he was free. And I was like, "You know what?" It's time for me to free my own mind. Yeah. And resentment and anger and all these things that I kind of would just keep internally. So I looked up and said, I forgive dad, but, but mom, I forgive him for being lost and I forgive him for making a mistake. Cause I've done that. I'm guilty of that. And you know what? I can live with that. And so all this is happening in my head, right? Twenty-two. Twenty-two. So now all of a sudden, here I am, sitting at the table and, and before I went to see my dad, I remember thinking, I've never said three words out loud. I've never said, I forgive you out loud.

• 45:53Speaker 02

  And so to my dad, and so when I was at, I saw him, I just, at times that I wanted to probe or at times I wanted answers, I just stepped back and said, why are you here? Cause you have three words that you've never said. Oh my gosh. And it doesn't matter. This new concept of forgiveness doesn't matter at all what he has to say. What he thinks, whether I agree with it, whether I disagree. He could have come in and said, I love you. I'm so sorry. This is exactly what happened. I'm a piece of shit. He could have, but would that have made? You still resent, you still resent him. Does it, does it matter? Yeah, it doesn't matter. He could have said, you know what? I, I did what I had to do and F the world and all, he could have. But is that why I'm there? No. So it doesn't matter.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  I wasn't there to seek validation. I wasn't there. It was for me. And so after he said, I'm sorry for causing pain, I basically said, you know what? I forgive you for being lost and I forgive you for making a mistake. Both of which I have made many. And he just looked at me. And that was the time where I think it got real. Like that's the time where, you know, the eyes glaze over and I think it was just, that was real. Wow. And I basically said, I gotta bounce, you know? And so. Right after. All right, peace out. You know, we, we talked for a little bit longer, but it was, you know, I, I, the substance of the conversation, I don't really know.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  The magnification of it. And, and so now I kind of felt guilty in a way that I didn't even tell my family, right? They didn't know you went to see your dad. And my grandparents, you know, I, I love them more than anything. And I think part of it too is, I want them to hear it. I still haven't told them. You even told your grandparents that you went to go see him. Really? And it's been hard, but I think I want them to hear it. Through things like this. Wow. So that I, not that they would, not that they would interrupt, not that anything like that would happen. But I can just talk, or they could just read and get it in the full context of why I did it. And I think it would be a real hard conversation for me to have. And I respect him and love him more than anything.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  But hopefully they hear this, or they read it. And realize it's not, I don't want a relationship with him, I don't, it was for me. And I'm now heading back. I get on the plane. And I remember being, saying, I feel great, I hope I did the right thing. And I remember opening the window of the plane, and it was like the best sunset I've ever seen in my life. And so to me, that was my mom. And I was like, oh my gosh, like, this is amazing. So I land, I see my wife, and then now the time comes that I'm, she's giving birth to my daughter. And I, you know, you know the other thing too, that I, that I want to touch on?

• 48:45Speaker 02

  And I don't know if I said this, so if I did, just, you can interrupt me, but. I wanted to sit at the table with my dad and feel every emotion about that relationship. And I wanted to, to think about everything that him and I missed out on. And everything that should have been. Having my mom there, having my dad there, the things he should have taught me how to do. The way I should have looked up to this man. And then I wanted to look at him in the eyes. And look into his soul and feel everything he did wrong in his life. And maybe I'll leave a better father because of it. And that was a hard thing to do. And we have friends that were in our, my wife and I's wedding. One of them, pen pal with her dad, hadn't seen him for whatever reason. And then all of a sudden they wanted to see, you know, she wanted to see him and he passed away.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  I have a relative, father, searched for him, passed away. They never got to see him. And I didn't want to be that guy. You know? And that's why I did it, like, I didn't want to be that guy to wish I would have had just a few hours with him. Just to have a conversation. Yeah. And part of it, it's for me. And I remember sitting at that table and feeling that entire time of my life all over again. But taking it in a way, not of resentment, not of hate, not of blame. Instead, what did you do wrong? That maybe will help me not do the same thing. What can I do right now? To look into your soul? To make my daughter's life better?

• 50:13Speaker 02

  And that is me trying to take a negative? And take the story and find motivation in it? Because the reality is this, life happens. Life doesn't care who you are, doesn't care your religion, your race, what language you speak, how much money you have, it doesn't matter. But all of a sudden, if you look at it that way, you become a victim of everything that happens bad, right? Oh, it happened to me because of this. No, it happens to everybody. And it might happen to different people at different times, at different severities, but the reality is life happens whether you want it to or not. So the sooner you can sit there and say, you know what? It is what it is. And guess what? That person's got problems, and so does that person, and that person, and that person. So the sooner I can come to terms with my own reality, the sooner I can say, hey, this is what it is. I'm not gonna let this take me down. The sooner I have acceptance, the sooner I have forgiveness.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  The sooner I can look back on that and say, you know what? Here's what I'm gonna take from it? Rock on, I'm out. And I'm gonna keep moving, I'm gonna keep on keeping on. And right, so at that moment? That was my moment. Here I am. This is my reality, whether I like it or not. And I'm gonna take this? And I'm gonna find something? Because if I don't? Then this eats you.

• 51:15Lewis Howes?

  You're gonna be bitter, you're gonna be respectful, yeah.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  But if you can take that and just find something? Of why did I go through this? Why did life put me through this? Then all of a sudden? You can deal with it. At least for me. And so, you ready for this? So my daughter's now born. She comes out. They put her on my wife. My daughter's hand just brushed her face. I got everything on video, it's insane. And then they hand her to me.

• 51:39Lewis Howes?

  I would lose it.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  And I turned around. And I had about five seconds? Where everything stopped. It was the moment that time stood still for me. And the beeping, the chaos? Everything stopped. And I looked at her. And I just said, hey? You'll forever be able to have lunch with your daddy?

• 51:57Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  And you'll never look at me the way I looked at him.

• 51:59Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, man.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  That was the first thing I ever told my daughter.

• 52:02Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, that's powerful.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  And that, that meant so much more to me. You know, if people read that? It just sounds, okay, you can have lunch with your dad. But that put my entire life's journey into one sentence? Of what that means to me. And, um? Being a dad's the coolest thing in the world, man. It's the coolest thing in the world.

• 52:22Lewis Howes?

  Do you wish you would've been a dad sooner?

• 52:24Speaker 02

  Yes and no. I enjoyed my twenties.

• 52:27Lewis Howes?

  It's the right time.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know what it is? Right time and right person.

• 52:31Lewis Howes?

  You need the right person.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  You need the right person. And for more than one reason. So, you know, the reality is I was married divorced. And then I got remarried to just an amazing woman. And, look, I've been there, done that, right? So, as you get into this journey, you reevaluate people. And I remember thinking, okay, if this doesn't really work out, I'm not going into it like that, but things happen. I got a great woman who's gonna be an amazing mom. If I die.

• 52:57Lewis Howes?

  If it doesn't work out, if we don't work out, I can trust that she's gonna be a great mom.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  And now, that doesn't mean divorce. That doesn't mean, it could be death. It could be, there's a lot of things that can happen in this world.

• 53:06Lewis Howes?

  Injury, whatever, yeah.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  I could be paralyzed forever. Like, you don't know. You don't know what life's gonna throw at you, right? Because life happens. It's just the way it is. But I know that I got an amazing woman that is gonna be the greatest mom in the world that I love more than anything. Let's roll.

• 53:19Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  Let's roll.

• 53:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What was the biggest lesson that you learned from your dad growing up? And then what was the biggest lesson you learned when he was gone? When he was in prison?

• 53:31Speaker 02

  Wow. When you're single and when you're alone,

• 53:37Speaker 02

  your decisions affect a lot less people. What you do has consequences, but it's gonna affect a smaller circle. Well, all of a sudden, when you get married and you have kids, that circle just magnified and became a lot more impressionable. And now your actions can really affect people's lives that are a piece of you, that are a part of you, that are a breathing piece of you. I learned that. That when you're a part of that, it's time to put the big boy pants on. Because maybe what you think is best for you and it's not best for your family, well, it's time to do what's best for your family. And it's time to really think about your decisions. Because now I don't answer just to my wife and to myself. Now I have a little girl.

• 54:23Speaker 02

  I don't have a son yet, but I sit back and go, okay, if I had a son, how would things be different with how I would raise him? But now I have a little girl. And I'm not perfect. I think I still kind of have side effects from the open heart surgery, which, you know, we'll get into that. There's emotional and hormone and all this stuff and meds and stuff, so. But I I try to say, okay, she's observing how I am treating her mom.

• 54:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, every moment.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Every moment.

• 54:50Lewis Howes?

  Even if she's six months old, she's still feeling the energy, yeah.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  And whatever happens in this house is gonna be what she's gonna expect in a relationship.

• 54:58Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  If it's going south, then don't be shocked if she gets in abusive relationship and just thinks it's normal and it's okay. And then she becomes just not the happy person she deserves to be.

• 55:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  So having a daughter is about dating your wife and dating your daughter. And look, I get frustrated at times, right? Everybody argues at times, you know, having a baby is stressful.

• 55:20Lewis Howes?

  No sleep.

• 55:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it just so happens that like the the small window of time that we had my child is the literally the busiest time of my career. It's like.

• 55:28Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  The book came out and it's just like a lot's going on and so we've been trying to manage that. And so it's been frustrating, lack of sleep and all that, but you but aside from that, right? It's who do I want my daughter to marry?

• 55:42Speaker 02

  And it should be a man like me.

• 55:43Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  And if it's not, then what do I need to change?

• 55:46Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  And that's kind of how I try and go about. And again, I I look, I I sometimes lose my temper and stuff, right? But when you sit back, it's it's a it's a life journey of of soothing our own souls and finding peace and and trying to influence this kid in a way that she's never been influenced before, you know, so.

• 56:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow, yeah.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:09Lewis Howes?

  How long were you playing in the NFL for?

• 56:11Speaker 02

  So I was going into my fifteenth.

• 56:12Lewis Howes?

  Fifteen seasons with with the same team?

• 56:15Speaker 02

  So I did Buffalo for two.

• 56:16Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 56:17Speaker 02

  Tennessee for a year and a half.

• 56:18Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  And then Philly picked me up second half of the season, so I was in Philly eleven and a half, twelve. And then I got traded to New Orleans. And so so let me tell you this, so I I'm in Philly, right? I get there and long story short, you never know how you treat people. And well, you you know how you treat people, but you never know who you're gonna come across that's gonna make a huge difference in your life.

• 56:38Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  So don't burn a bridge, right? And just just be cool, be nice. So I go to.

• 56:43Lewis Howes?

  Hard to do sometimes.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  It is, it is. So I go to Texas El Paso and I I just try and I conducted.

• 56:47Lewis Howes?

  Kind of like fake your way in, in a sense, like.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, so here's rapids, right? So I think I think I'm a pretty good high school player.

• 56:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  Right, I lead the league in tackles, right? Didn't even make all league.

• 56:56Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  I was so mad. I was so mad, dude.

• 56:59Lewis Howes?

  So pissed.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  So mad.

• 57:00Lewis Howes?

  Lead the league in tackles and you don't make.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  I remember my backup got second team. What? And I'm like. The backup? Yeah. How's that possible? Thank you. A little bitter, okay? I was a little upset at that. So I, I, I, okay, all these junior colleges are saying, hey, come play, come play. And you had Long Beach City and Palomar and all these, you know, 150 guys out there, but they're good. Yeah, they're good. But I remember going, man, if I go here, you know, I played for a guy named Bill Simpson. I played with his son, Jason. Bill played for nine years in the league. He was our coach. Amazing. I'll never forget, he said this. If you play, they'll find you. If you're sitting on the bench, ain't never gonna be seen, kid. So I was like. Go play somewhere. Just get on the field. If you're not on the field, you ain't gonna go nowhere. You're going nowhere. So Golden West Junior College. It's one of my buddy Paul Tessier. We put high school together. He's one of my best friends. He went there. They're 0 and 30. Okay, now I remember this. Get on the field, though.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  If I can't play here, if I can't play here, hang it up. We were the Bad News Bears. And so I went there and we went 0 and 10, so 0 and 40. So we became the longest losing streak in college football history that I was a part of. Right, something to hang your hat on, a record in the last. So now all of a sudden, I'm academically eligible to transfer out as a sophomore. And I'm not really getting any looks. And I put the film on. I thought I played really well. Like, you know, I was a defensive guy. I was really good at like open field tackles and covering receivers. And I was never the hard hitter. I was never like the super uber physical guy. But I'd make tackles, like get in there. I made, I just found a way to make plays. And nothing. I guess not a lot of, not a lot of coaches are going to 0 and 40 schools, right? They just kind of like drive right by you. Yeah. So I said, hey, let me get some game film, put a highlight tape together.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  I'm gonna send it, send it out and send it to my buddy Paul Tessier at UTEP. You know, so I'm making my highlight tape. It's good. Like, look, I had good clips on there. I had some footage of me snapping in high school, so I put that on there. And then all of a sudden, I was like, man, Nick Heinley, his teammate of mine. Both white guys, both looked the same. I was 47, he was 48. This is before the internet and HD cameras, so everything's great. And he's like. Yeah, you know, you know. Right? And we rotated positions. So it's the same position on the field. Yeah. Right? So he literally. He was a long snapper, too. No, no, no, he was a linebacker. He destroyed people. Like, he had three hits that I remember, he knocked the dude out and he knocked himself out. Like, when I say, I don't think I've ever been a part of a just straight-up harder hitter. I just took his huge hits.

• 59:10Lewis Howes?

  No way. You put it on your game film?

• 59:12Speaker 02

  A couple.

• 59:12Lewis Howes?

  That's amazing.

• 59:13Speaker 02

  So it's like me being like the finesse guy and just making plays and then all of a sudden just like rushing hits. It's like, dude, this guy's amazing.

• 59:18Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  And then I was like, man, I haven't snapped in a while. Test said they need a snapper. Dude, this guy, Tim Thurman, he was a 6'6" long snapper. He was better than I ever was. And so he ended up going to Cal Berkeley, I think, to play baseball.

• 59:28Lewis Howes?

  He was better than, as a long snapper, than you were in the NFL?

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Probably. Oh, yeah, dude. This guy, 6'6", money every time.

• 59:34Lewis Howes?

  Why didn't he go play in the NFL?

• 59:35Speaker 02

  He picked baseball. Yeah, you know? So I took some of his snapping. And it's like literally the greatest highlight tape ever known to mankind, right? So UTEP gets it and goes, this guy's unbelievable. Yeah, we'll give you a full scholarship. We need a snapper. And my buddy Paul's like, yep, let's go. So I went there, passed the test, you know, it was all good. Struggled a little bit, you know, figured it out, because now that I got the scholarship, now I'm gonna really have to hone this skill. Like, look, I was good, but I wasn't great.

• 59:58Lewis Howes?

  You were okay a long snapper.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  I was better than what was out there.

• 1:00:00Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  But at the time, is not nearly the standard that it is today.

• 1:00:03Lewis Howes?

  D1 level, yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  No. But I knew I was D1 level. Well, I thought I was D1 level. Now, here's the secret. What, here's really my motive, okay? And people laugh at this, but this is the honest guy truth. I said this before, I want to be a rock star. I did. I just want to be a rock star. The energy is insane. So I had opportunities to play baseball, and I went and saw a buddy of mine who was at Long Beach State, and I just remember sitting at practice going, oh, gosh.

• 1:00:24Lewis Howes?

  Slow. Five hours sitting on outfield.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  Can't do it. So I wanted the energy of football. And I told myself, my goal is I wanted to play in front of 100,000 people. How do I do it? College football.

• 1:00:35Lewis Howes?

  College football, man.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  So I went to UTEP. We were good the first year. One of my first games was at Oklahoma, 98,612 or 602 people.

• 1:00:43Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  I was 2,000 short. But I remember going out going, 98,600 and change. Okay, we're almost there.

• 1:00:50Lewis Howes?

  Gotta go play with the Buckeyes, man.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we're almost there. Yeah, right? So I played at UTEP, everything went good. And then I got an agent and, well, a buddy of mine went to the Tennessee Titans. And he said, hey, man, you can snap in this league. So like, use my agent, he's amazing. I go, cool, done. So I'll never forget, a team called and said, hey, we're gonna give, we want to give Dorenbos 50 grand. I didn't get drafted, so I was a free agent. We want to give Dorenbos 50 grand up front, come, you know, come play for us. My agent calls me and says, hey, you just got an offer of 50 grand for a free agent snapper back in early 2000s. Like, this is legit, but I wouldn't take it if I were you. I'm like, what? What do you mean? He goes, the Buffalo Bills are gonna give you 3 grand, and you should take that.

• 1:01:24Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  I go, Ken, what are you talking about? Cause you'll play there? He goes, cause if you go to Buffalo, it's your job to lose. If you go to this other team, they're not getting rid of their guy. You're gonna be the camp body, get him through the preseason so the guy doesn't get hurt, and then they're gonna cut you. And to them, that's worth 50 grand. Wow. So. To not lose their best. To not lose their, to not lose the guy that's been there forever, that's honestly one of the greatest that's ever played that position, right? But I didn't, at the time, you're not processing that, right? So he goes, take the three grand, be happy, and just, it's your job, there's no other snapper in camp, so if you get the, if you. Fail. Don't mess up. Don't get hurt. Yeah, don't get hurt. Okay. So I signed for three grand. It was like 1,700 bucks after taxes, right? So I took some of the guys from UTEP, we went down to the Stampede. Got some beers. Like an idiot, I put like 1,500 bucks on the freaking cake. Barkeep. Can these guys drink all night? Sure can. Wow.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  So then, the next morning, I'm like, that was so stupid, so fun, now I've got like 200 bucks. But my buddies are happy, right? So then, yeah, I played in Buffalo, then Tennessee, and then in Philly. And, you know, it was funny, so when I got to Philly, that's kinda when I was figuring out who I was as a player. And it all comes back to this moment, right? Don't burn bridges. Right? Cause you never know. So Tennessee, I filled in for a guy that got hurt, and so he got healthy, and then they released me. So the guy in Philadelphia breaks his neck, Mike Bartram, great snapper, breaks his neck, career injury, he's fine, but they needed a snapper. So it was me and three other guys. One guy's Adam Johnson. He was at University of Buffalo, and I mentored him when I was with the Bills. He was a long snapper. So I remember seeing him going, he had to shit me. Like, I can't lose. To this guy that I was. To this guy that like, he kinda helped out.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  John Condo, great snapper, and me. So all of a sudden, we do some snaps, we do the drill. Andy Reid comes walking out, Big Red. First time I'd seen him. Guy's a legend. Dornbosch, come here. Yeah, and he kinda, he would look straight ahead, and he would just move his eyes when he'd look at you. Like, I'd be here, and he'd be like this, flicking his pen, and all of a sudden, his eyes would just move, and he'd look at you. Really? Bob Stoll called me. Said, you're my guy. So Bob Stoll was the athletic director at UTEP. Bob Stoll gave Andy Reid his first big college coaching job, and they coached at UTEP back, back in the heyday. So when I was at UTEP, I just remember anytime somebody asked me to do something, I always did it. Magic, just events, it didn't matter, cause I was just so happy to be a part of family. Yeah. So for me, sports was family. And coming from where I came from, I had a family that was kinda destroyed.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  And so now, every team I'd been on, I just had this sense of loyalty that was just far superior than anything I'd ever felt, because that became my family. And I remember that my entire career, I always wanted the guy that gave me the opportunity to look back and say, I don't care if I could've had. Michael Jordan on my basketball team. I'm glad I picked you. Wow. Because of the way you conduct yourself, showing up on time, because of the process, the preparation, because in the moment, everything. I just wanted that person to be proud that they gave me a chance because I was a little undersized, you know, a little slow. I just want to make that guy proud. Yeah. And maybe that was also the

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  lack of having a dad to make proud. Mm-hmm. That these people became this father figure that I just wanted to make proud. Mm-hmm. And, uh... So Andy Reid said, "You're my guy." You're my guy. Bob Stoll said, "You're my guy." And I'm like, "Bob Stoll? It'd been years." Oh, my gosh. So he called Reid? He said, "Hey, we got a UTEP kid." He goes, "Coach, he's a magician, and I promise you, it'll be the best thing that's ever happened in your locker room." No way. And he told you. Because he's got to connect with the team, he's got to... You'll never have another kid like Torn Boss. So Andy said, "You're my guy." But I'm gonna tell you right now. You want to be here? You're here. You want to lift weights? Lift weights. You want to run? Run. You want to work out? Great. You want to study? Study. If you don't, don't. But if it ain't there on Sunday, you're fired. Wow.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  And I was like, "Coach, you and I are gonna get along? I'm going home. I'll see you at practice." (laughing) And from that moment on, Andy and I were tight. He'd bring me in his office, I'd do a trick or two, and like... And I was always a locker room guy. Yeah. I was always a people guy, like, I, you know, and... So what ended up happening is, I always wanted to make the guy that hired me proud, the owner, and Andy. Guys that gave me opportunities when other people didn't. I just wanted them to look back years down the road and say... It was a good, it was a good choice, yeah. It was a good choice. And, uh, I remember I played through broken bones, torn ligaments. Yeah. Migraines. I mean, you name it, I've played through four hernias. I've played through it all. And so, uh, next thing you know, I find out that I'm in line to break a record. And I'm like, I never thought... What record? What record, right?

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  And so I'm gonna go back. When you ask players, "What's your, what's your goal?", you get all different answers. "I want to win a Super Bowl." "I want to be in the Pro Bowl." "I want to sign for the most money ever at my position," right? Everybody's got different personal goals that, or records that they want to achieve. I remember looking around the locker room and I got to play with a guy named Drew Bledsoe, who for me was like the man.

• 1:06:05Lewis Howes?

  Stud.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  London Fletcher. And then I go to Philly and it's Westbrook and

• 1:06:08Lewis Howes?

  Fletcher, stud.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  All these guys, London Fletcher.

• 1:06:11Lewis Howes?

  He was a D3 guy. I played in the same league as him.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  Beast.

• 1:06:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  I had a locker next to London Fletcher my first two years.

• 1:06:17Lewis Howes?

  It's funny, I went to a pro day at Buffalo after college and he was there training like in the offseason. And it was like, I don't know, 100 of us receivers.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  What year was this?

• 1:06:26Lewis Howes?

  2006.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  Killer.

• 1:06:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, 2006. I don't know, were you there then?

• 1:06:31Speaker 02

  No, I was in Tennessee.

• 1:06:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and he was like the only guy on the team there. It was just like a, you know, a pro day for receivers, but he was doing drills outside. I remember being like, yeah, that's respect. That's like a D3 attitude. It's like,

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:06:46Lewis Howes?

  No one cares about me. He went to John Carroll, I think.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:06:50Lewis Howes?

  It was a capital, so.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  So let me tell you a London Fletcher story that resonated with me from that moment on. We're struggling on special teams. He's our starting middle linebacker, never missed a game, who's a B superstar at the time. He's in his prime. He walks into the special teams meeting, looks, and back then it was the old school wedge. Five guys, runner behind it and just pounding. And then we had a guy named Sam Gash who was an old school, hard-nosed fullback who just loved to hit people, right? They don't have those anymore. So all of a sudden, London Fletcher walks in and Sam Gash is behind him. He looks at the two guys that set the wedge and said, "You two, get out." He ain't getting the job done. Get out. I'm here to win.

• 1:07:29Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  Sits down and says, "Coach, I'll set the wedge."

• 1:07:32Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Now, in the NFL, a lot of big time starters don't want to play special teams.

• 1:07:36Lewis Howes?

  Hell no.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  One, because it's really tiring, your injury rate's high, and it's not exactly the sexiest glorious position. But here comes a superstar saying, "Hey, you two,

• 1:07:44Lewis Howes?

  I'll set the wedge."

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  Get out. I'm gonna set the wedge, which is probably the worst thing to do.

• 1:07:47Lewis Howes?

  Worst thing.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  It's the worst. It's headache.

• 1:07:49Lewis Howes?

  Frickin' neck, frickin' shoulder. I tore AC joints and all, yeah.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  So what happens? Sam Gash, who's another superstar, him and London Fletcher say they're gonna set the wedge. We got a guy named Terrence McGee who's our returner. First game back, they set the wedge. London takes out two dudes. Sam Gash hits a guy that just goes completely out. Terrence McGee takes it to the house.

• 1:08:07Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  I'll never forget Sam Gash standing over the dude, looking at him as he's just laying there. And he looks at our sideline, he looks at their sideline, and he just goes, "Trainer." And walks off the field, looks at the two dudes that they kicked off the special teams play, and he goes, "That's how you do it."

• 1:08:25Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh, that's like a baller move.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:08:30Lewis Howes?

  Studs.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  But as rookies, what that instills is it doesn't matter who you are. The job's gotta get done. And either A, you're a guy that gets the job done no matter what, or B, you're not. And there is no excuses in between. It is either get it done, or you don't.

• 1:08:43Lewis Howes?

  Get off the field.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  Get off the field. Now, so here's what happens. So now, so in the NFL, you get fined for everything, right? If you're late to a meeting, it's a fine. If you're late to this, 14 grand. If your jersey untucked, you got three plays to turn in, 25 grand. Everything gets fined. But, I get it. You either have total discipline, or you have no discipline. You turn on the game, and it's a very clean game, right? Because they enforce that. But now, I've had all these years where it's ingrained, you either get it done, or you don't. There is no in-between. Are you a guy or a woman that gets it done? Or do you not? I don't care what the excuse is. I don't care what's going on. It doesn't matter. Get it done. And then, if you're late, I'm gonna fine you. Because it's the only way that's gonna affect you. Oh, what am I gonna not play you? Okay? Yeah, it's the only thing that truly affects people's quality of life.

• 1:09:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and the more you get fined, if you're getting fined 100 grand and being late, you're gonna show up.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  Oh, you show up real quick.

• 1:09:34Lewis Howes?

  Real quick.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  Real quick. You're never late again.

• 1:09:36Lewis Howes?

  People ever late?

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  No, very rare. We had one guy that missed a team flight. We were playing, and I was in Philly. And you miss a team flight, now check this out. You're fined for missing the team flight. You're fined for missing the team bus from the flight to the hotel. You're fined for not checking into the hotel on time. You're probably gonna be fined because you didn't make the meeting.

• 1:09:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, you're fined, right? So that could be a $150,000 fine.

• 1:09:54Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  Oh, easy. Dude, this dude got in his car and drove from Philly to New England, and literally made it to the team meeting.

• 1:10:01Lewis Howes?

  He was like, "I'm not getting late."

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  Fine me for the flight.

• 1:10:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  But I ain't missing, right? So, but now what happens is you're like, you're ingrained on schedule and on a certain discipline and a certain way of thinking, and you become very results-oriented, and you become very punctual and on time.

• 1:10:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  Well, then you get out of the game, and you get in the real world. Where like, eh, 15, 20 minutes late, eh, it drives me nuts.

• 1:10:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 02

  Like, it drives me nuts. Or it's just like, "Hey, can you get this done? Yeah, yeah, I got you." And then it doesn't get done, you're like, I don't understand. Like, why didn't it get done?

• 1:10:33Lewis Howes?

  That's why they're not professional athletes.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Well, because this is, no, that doesn't matter. Like, it didn't get, like, it drives me nuts. And that's, it's just something that I gotta just adjust to, you know? But like, so here's what happens, so... I'm looking at Bledsoe in London and then I go over to Tennessee and I played with all these other guys and I started realizing, what is my goal? Like, what is my... If somebody says, "Hey, what's your goal?" A long snapper. Yeah. "What's your goal?" And I was like, "You know what? I want to be the oldest guy on the team." Mmm. I think that'd be a pretty good goal. Mm-hmm. Because that means, A, I've got the most opportunity to win a Super Bowl. I've got the most opportunity to make a Pro Bowl and I've got the most opportunity to make a living. And that means that the guy that brought me here thought I was good enough to keep me for a long time.

• 1:11:19Speaker 02

  And that meant more to me than anything. Than the Super Bowl, than the money, than anything. It was the respect of, you come up on time, you show up ready to work, you do whatever it takes, and you know what? It might not always look pretty, but I know for a fact that when I put you in... You're getting the job done. When I call 46, the job's done. And so, what happens? I'm playing in Philly. "Hey, John, you know you're pretty close to breaking a record, right?" "Oh, yeah? What's that?" "You're gonna play in the most consecutive games ever played as an Eagle." "Huh? Excuse me?" They're like, "Yeah, yeah, you're like, you know, this season, you're gonna break it." And then all of a sudden, I started to reflect back on what it took to do that and what I thought about that.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  And there were defining moments that I'll never forget and why I did what I did, not to break a record, but... Because a reporter asked me, he goes, "Dude, how did you play through this injury?" So what ended up happening is I got rolled up on and I tore ligaments in my ankle, blew up, doctor said eight weeks, you're out. And this was at the beginning of the season. It was week four. And Andy Reid came to me and said, "I'm not gonna put you on IR." This is in 2008. "I'm not gonna put you on IR because if we make the playoffs, I want you in the playoffs." So, you're basically gonna be on the active roster for eight weeks and... Injured. Injured. And I'm like, "Okay." So then I step out, I go in the locker room, and I look at some of my teammates that were good buddies. "Oh, wait a minute. If I'm on the active roster, that means one of these guys is getting fired because they gotta clear a roster spot to bring in another snapper to fill in for me." Well, dude, that dude's got kids.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  That guy's been bouncing around. This guy, his whole life, this is all he's ever wanted, now he's got it. And these are the dudes that are on the bubble that are gonna get cut. So I went into Andy Reid's office on crutches. I say, "Hey, Coach, I'm playing." Huh? Oh my gosh. I said, "Just give me till Friday." Wow. Bring in a guy, do whatever you gotta do, but don't sign him. Just give me till Friday. So I told Rick, the trainer, I'm like, "Rick, we're playing." Huh? I go, "Rick, we're playing," and he goes, "I freaking love it, Dorenbos." So I like slept at the facility for a week, right? Three hours on, three hours off. Yeah. So Friday comes. And like everybody, like the trainers are looking at me like, "Dude, you're freaking nuts," right? We tape it up, I go on the field, and I hobble, jog run from one side of the field to the next. Warmups.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Just, just, let's just see if you can walk. And so I do this, right? You're like galloping down, right? But I make it to the other side, I turn around and I make it back. And I see Big Red in the, in the, in the window, you know, overlooking, kinda like this, overlooking the field. And I just go. So he walks away and I'm like.

• 1:13:47Speaker 02

  So I look at Rick, I go, "I'm playing, man." I end up, you know, back then, you know, you could take a few shots and, and, you know, just do whatever you gotta do. I wrapped it up, and so now I'm going out to pregame. And I'll never forget this, man. Coach Cully looks at me and goes, "Dorenbos, just snap it and get off the field." I said, "F you, Coach, we're snapping a game winner, I'm making a solo tackle."

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  And he just looked at me like, "You're an idiot," right? And so now we're doing pregame, and now the Giants have all their guys walking around me, just following me. Yeah. Seeing if I'm gonna limp, right? Cause you gotta report the injuries. And they're like, "If he's got a weakness, just spear him in the ankle first play." Oh my gosh. Take him out, they don't have a snapper, right? So I did everything in my power to not limp or show any pain in pregame. Oh my gosh. And I remember the third warmup snap I had, I freaking did a dead sprint to the other side of the field. Shut up. And cried the entire way. In pain, just like. I was in so much pain, but that was my moment, and, and Coach Quinn, stop following me. Cause he was like, "Oh well, shit." This guy's got. He's got it, he's fine. And dude, it was the most painful thing I've ever done in my life. So what happens? First punt. Snap it, run down, solo tackle. I run by Coach Cully.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  What happens? About, nah, a minute and a half, two minutes left, we're down by one or two. What do we do? We snap a field goal. Wow, you snap the field goal. Go up by one or two, ended up being the game winner. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. Crazy, right? And so, but now after, it was after the game that I realized that those dudes came up to me and said, "Thanks, Dorenbos." The guys that were gonna get cut. Wow. And for me, playing wasn't about a record. It was about me being a part of that family. And me having those guys look at me and say, "You were the right pick." Wow. And there's nobody else I want out there but you. That's amazing. And that, that's deep, like, that's a deep, personal. Feeling of, I don't know if it's validation for ego as much as it is pride, as much as it is respect versus ego. It's like, I want these guys to respect me, to know that when shit gets really hard,

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  there is nobody else they want in there except me. It doesn't matter. He'll get it done, Coach. This guy's gonna get it done. If he says he can get in and play, he'll do it. And so, you know, when that came up, I kind of reflected on all these things that I did and that I played through. And I was like, man, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna break a record. Wait a minute. And sure enough, I looked at the roster, and I was the oldest guy on the team. No way. And I said, get out of here. That's crazy. For about two weeks, and then we signed punter Donnie Jones, and he was like a week older than me. So then the game comes. It's game 162. Consecutive games. 162 consecutive season games. That doesn't include playoffs and stuff. I played more. So funny. Ladies and gentlemen, we'd like to congratulate John Dormboss on tying the great Harold Carmichael for the most consecutive games in Eagles history. So like an idiot, I run up there.

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  Very next play. This hits the top of the helmet, wrist explodes. Dislocate the middle lunate bone toward every ligament. Yeah, that's pretty. Yeah, so I've had three surgeries, but I tied. Oh, no.

• 1:16:36Speaker 02

  That's like worse than this. I made it over 11 years straight, played through everything. This right here, literally was impossible.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  That's what you're snapping with. Yeah. So this thing was, it was done, but... At least you got out there on the field. Yeah. And you know what happened? In the ambulance to the hospital? Because I had artery damage, so I was losing feeling and blood in my hands. So I had to go into emergency surgery to get the artery, because the bone dislocated and flipped over and pinched the nerve in artery, right? So, long story short, I'm in the ambulance. I remember going, you know what? Harold's a pretty cool dude. He's the guy that had the record. And you know what? If I broke this record, he'd probably stop showing up for lunch on Fridays. So I text him, hey, man, there's nobody else I'd rather share this record than you. That's cool. I'd rather share it with you than not. Than be alone, yeah. So just so you know, clearly I did this intentionally, just to save face for you. So you keep showing up. So you keep showing up. I want to ask you about, um, this is amazing stuff, man.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  We didn't even go into the heart. That's what I was gonna ask you right now. Are you ready for this? This is hardcore, man. So you got trade, why would they trade you? Okay, here we go. So I do America's Got Talent. Yes. Okay, and now I've become a finalist. And I didn't look at it at the time, but the Eagles got amazing publicity for it. I'm sure. It was a win-win for everybody. Huge. And I thought that I was representing the NFL in a positive way. And so I go back to training camp, I do this. Excuse me, I come back and I'm like, I feel like I'm Mr. Eagle, right? Most Kentucky games.

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  Hey, John, we want to trade you. What? Why? Huh? You just showed up through injuries, through all this stuff. America's Got Talent. Yeah, I'm Mr. Eagle. Like, you can't trade me, you know? And they said, well, and there was a younger kid that was that they brought in to compete against me. And now, look, I'm 37 at the time, right? This kid's 23. Stud, stud, fast, youth. Snapped up, just youth. Crisp, lean. Yeah. Just bouncing right back, you know? I just saw myself 15 years ago, right? Basically, the special teams coach wanted to go younger and it was just, it was time. And so the GM comes up to me and he says, hey, so we want to trade you. And honestly, I think he thought I was going to get really upset. And at first I was shocked and then I, yeah, but then I went, wait a minute, did you just say you're going to trade me?

• 1:18:42Speaker 02

  He goes, yeah, we've had some inquiries. Inquiries? In the history of the NFL, has there ever been a long snapper traded for? And he goes, actually, no, I don't think so. So I'm the first long snapper to ever get traded for a draft pick? Do it. I'm out. If this is my reality, but again, it comes back to this. If this is my reality, does it really matter if I agree or not? No. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. So you better, you better, you better come to peace with it and find the positive. Wow. So the owner calls me, hey, John, if you don't want to go, I'll ace this trade. You'll be an Eagle, retire forever. You'll retire an Eagle. And I remember saying, Jeff, I just, you know what? I'm going to let go of the need to be right. I'm going to let go of ego. It's time. I'm OK with it. Shake my hand, I love you. I'll do whatever you need for life.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  You gave me 11 great years, but if life's taking us in a different direction, it's just time. And thank you for 11 years. So what happens is I get traded to New Orleans. And so when I get traded to New Orleans, I play in a preseason game. The very next day, I do a physical and they're like, yeah, OK, go down to the hospital, take some tests. Yeah, no problem. I go down to the hospital, take some tests. I come back, I'm getting ready for practice, my phone rings, I pick it up and hey John, this is the surgeon and cardiologist at Louisiana Hospital, are you sitting down? I'm like, yeah, yeah, what's up? Alright, I'm gonna tell you this, you're never playing football ever again. Now, keep in mind, I just signed a three-year extension for more money than I've ever made. Oh. Okay, I'm 37, I'm with a team that's wearing all blacks, I'm gonna look thin, this is great, they're indoors, this is amazing. Drew Brees. Drew Brees. Yeah. Really? And he goes, you're never playing football ever again, and you're gonna be in emergency

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  open-heart surgery, probably in the next 24 to 48 hours. So, I need you to just sit there, don't run, don't walk fast, don't drink caffeine, try not to laugh, try not to cough, try not to sneeze, don't lift anything over 5 pounds. What? Just sit there. We're just playing a football game. The trainers are literally walking in. So, I take my cleats off, and I scrape the mud off of them, off the bottom, because I was getting ready for practice. And, which brings up to another really intense thing.

• 1:20:35Speaker 02

  When my mom died during the trial, I just started biting my nails like crazy, and I could never stop, never. And, I'm a fast-paced magician, because I was always self-conscious of my hands, I was always self-conscious that when people were looking at my nails, so I was always really fast. I tried everything, the lacquer, that stuff tastes so good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would eat that stuff, right? And so, but what ended up happening is, I met my wife, and she changed a few things in me that I wanted to change, and I don't bite my nails no more. That's cool. You had some peace. Peace. And then all of a sudden, I did America's Got Talent, and I wanted to do my ballad, and it was the first time I did a card trick on camera in front of the world, slow. And for me, it was about showing the world I have nails. That was a big moment for me. That's cool. Right, it's cool. So now, all of a sudden, I scraped the mud, and I feel it in my nail, and it was cool,

• 1:21:20Speaker 02

  right? Take my helmet off, put it in my locker, and I start tearing up. And at that moment, I got upset, and I started to be in the victim, and I got pissed off. And I was like, dude, this is not how my career's going, my wife, my life, like, everything's going so good, I'm here in New Orleans, like, I'm happy, this is not happening, right? And you become a victim, and all of a sudden, you start creating this narrative that like, this isn't right, right? And you start making excuses. It's not fair. It's not fair. Yeah. So what happens? I see a dude walk by named Drew Brees, and I see his name, Breeze. And it took me back, I sit down, and I just kinda chuckled, because it took me back to 2006, when I first signed with the Eagles, and I was in the tunnel, and Joe Santa La Quita was a reporter from ESPN. He comes up, and he goes, John, can I ask you a question? I said, yeah, yeah, what's up?

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  I heard that your mom's best friend, Leslie Moore, sang "Wind Beneath My Wings" at her funeral. Is that right? I'll be honest with you, Joe, coming in like really deep there. I wasn't really expecting that. And I go, yeah, yeah. She actually sang it behind a curtain because she didn't think she could do it in front of everybody at the funeral. It'd be too emotional. Yeah, thanks, man. That was a great memory, you know. And he goes, you don't get it. I go, no, no, Bette Midler, eighties, nineties, beaches, Broadway. It's a great song, right? Great song. He goes, the last time I checked, the words say, I can fly higher than an eagle because you are the wind beneath my wings. Well, you're an eagle now. You bounce around, kid. We all know it. So I'm just telling you right now, you work hard, you show up, the city's gonna love you. And if you get hit too hard, just stand up and open your wings and let the wind take you. You're gonna do great things, kid. I'm pulling for you. And I went, whoa. That's whoa. That's pretty cool.

• 1:22:50Speaker 02

  Whoa. So all of a sudden, I'm now sitting, feeling, you know, bitterness, feeling like a victim, feeling like this isn't right. And making every excuse, blaming people, like, this isn't cool. And a dude walks by me with the last name Breeze. And I sat down and I said, you know what? It's time to rewrite this story. Are you kidding me? Whether you're religious or not, I was traded to New Orleans to be saved by a saint. Pretty cool. And at the moment, when I was at a low, a dude walks by me with the last name Breeze. And I looked up and I said, I get it, mom. Wow. You just had to take the wind. You know, I had to step out of the wind and catch a breeze. And this breeze saved my life. So found out I had a severely leaky valve, which means the heart, blood comes in from the lungs and then it shoots out the top.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Well, when my blood was shooting out the top, that valve wasn't closing, so the blood was going back into my heart. And so what happened is my heart got way too big. How could they track that? The MRI scan or something? No, so you take a few breaths and they hear a murmur on an. In their back, whatever, their chest? Yeah, the chest. And so I never knew what, like, the doctor goes, take three breaths. And you're like, what am I doing? So he's, he's listening for a drum and your, your heart should sound like this. Right? If there's a squish sound, that means that there's blood leaking. Where that squish sound happens is the severity of what it is. So I had a really bad leak in a bad spot. Which means that the vein or aorta that leaves the heart, it started to blow up like a water balloon. So it should be about the size of a dime or a nickel, and mine was the size of a Coke can.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  So the doctors were like, "I'm just telling you right now, you're one hit away from dying." Like, if you get hit in the chest, you have a higher chance of that rupturing than not. And if it ruptures, you're dead before you hit the ground. There is no coming back.

• 1:24:27Lewis Howes?

  Did you ever feel any symptoms?

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, the doctor goes, "You got any symptoms?" I'm like, "Well, what's a symptom?" "Your back hurts and you're out of breath." "Doc, have you seen the dudes I'm running around with right now?"

• 1:24:35Lewis Howes?

  Every day.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  "I'm a pudgy white guy. I'm out of breath for the last 25 years." "And I'm 37. I get massages five days a week because my back's killing me." "But I thought it was because of this football." "But it was the aneurysm." "So I got traded to New Orleans. It saved my life." "I'm so happy it happened." "But then it comes back to this." "Had I had ego, had I wanted to show up in the Eagles building, "and look at a coach who made the right decision in moving on and signing this other kid, "to walk in there and say, 'I'm here, now what?' "I die. Think about that." "But instead, sometimes you just sit back and let life happen and just realize that it's okay." "And that was years of these therapies of having..." "It's my therapist looking at me saying, 'Hey, guess what? "I'll probably never see you again.'" "But it's okay."

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  "Because when something ends, it's okay." "Something will start."

• 1:25:24Lewis Howes?

  This is crazy, man. I got a few final questions for you. I could go on for another hour or two. This is amazing. But I want to wrap this up for people. Imagine you get to pick the day when it's your last day here. Could be 100 years, could be 50 years. Just imagine you get to pick the day, and you get to achieve every dream you've sought out. You get to see your daughter and your family grow up. You get to be there for everything. You create whatever you want. You create a magical life. But for whatever reason, you've got to take everything with you. All of your work, your books, your media content, like, all that stuff goes with you "so no one has access to your information anymore, the content you put out in the world." "But you get to leave behind three things you know to be true."

• 1:26:08Lewis Howes?

  "To your family, your daughter, friends, the world." "Three truths that would be the lessons that you've learned in your life "that you'd say, 'Hey, these are the only three things I could share with you "that I know to be true in the world.'" What would you share?

• 1:26:23Speaker 02

  Don't hate, don't blame, and just forgive a little more.

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  If you do that, you'll find happiness. And happiness, to me, that's what life's about. If you find that, what else matters? Real quick, and this might go on for tense. A genius convention calls me years ago. Hey, we want you to be a speaker. And I'm like, you sure you got the right guy? Because I'm not a genius. And they're like, no, but you've achieved a lot of very, a lot of amazing things at such a high level simultaneously. We want to know your thought process. So here's what we want you to do. Will you list your top 100 accomplishments in your life? And then we do this thing and we go in there and we create this chart and we diagram your life into words based on all this. And we can kind of get a sense of what type of personality you are and what motivates you.

• 1:27:06Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:27:07Speaker 02

  Right? So I wrote my list and I sent it back to him. And dude, within two minutes, I got a call. We've never had a list like this. And I'm like, what do you mean? Most of the time when people, we ask people to list their 100 accomplishments, it's materialistic or job related. The number one thing that you said your proudest of as an accomplishment is you're happy.

• 1:27:27Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:27:28Speaker 02

  Pride, determination, perseverance, ability to feel, have emotion, have clarity, to forgive. Like, these are the things that I was listing, like all the things that gave me a foundation that I learned throughout my life about, you know, through the therapy. It's, these are the things that make all those other things happen. But without this, none of that happens. So why does that matter? You gotta, you gotta have your own ducks in a row, in your own head and in your heart. And then everything else will take care of itself.

• 1:27:57Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:27:58Speaker 02

  So I would say that. If you want a goal in life, be happy and watch what happens. Watch what happens.

• 1:28:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. The more resentful you are, angry, the less those accomplishments are going to mean something to you also. You know, fill them up with the accomplishments.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  And you better be real careful with the words that you tell yourself. Because that right there, how you view yourself, how you talk to yourself, how you look in the mirror and how you perceive yourself, that's the same way you're going to see the world, the same way you're going to talk to the world and the same thing you're going to get out of the world. So you better be real careful on the story you tell yourself, on how you feel about yourself. Otherwise, what are you going to expect? That, and that, and that, that can happen within ourselves. When I was in the hospital, you know, you're just sliding, right? Like, I could finally stand up. After the surgery? Yeah, after the surgery. So I was in the hospital over thirty days post-surgery. We had some white blood cell issues, hematomas and stuff we had to deal with. I would stand up, and I have a suitcase. And it was a suitcase with the tubes that came out of my stomach that was draining the blood and the fluid, so it didn't get in my lungs. I'd pick up my suitcase and I'd get the IV. And I would slide my feet to the bathroom.

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  And it would take me, literally, two minutes to go, like, ten feet, right? And my wife would say, "Hey, don't close that door, honey. Don't lock that door." And so, "Okay, okay." So I'd go in the bathroom, and I'd shut the door, but I wouldn't close it. And that was my time. And I'd look in the mirror, and I'd cry. And I'd be like, "Man, dude, a few days ago, you were a professional athlete. And now, you can't even walk to the bathroom." Oh, my gosh. And I would see, I'd lost thirty pounds, sunken in, looking miserable. And I would have my pity party, alone, in the bathroom. And at the end of that little pity party, every day, I stood up, I held that suitcase. And it took a lot, but I would hold my head up high. And I looked in the mirror, and I told myself, "You hold your head up, you be proud, you got this." Those are the three things I told myself.

• 1:29:38Speaker 02

  And sure enough, my wife and I would walk the hallway. And I remember Andy Reid, we were losing, and I sat behind him on a bus. And Andy Reid said, "Hey, if the captain keeps his cool, the ship keeps his cool. If the captain loses his cool, the ship loses his cool." So all of a sudden, my wife and I would walk around the floors of the hallway, because the goal would be, make it to the end of the hallway, get your juice box, and then walk back to your bed. And that was like a workout. And everybody looked upset. Everybody was staring at everybody, everybody just looked pissed off. And my wife and I finally realized, everybody was just scared. Nobody knows what to do, nobody knows what's going on. And so, my wife looked at me and goes, "Andy Reid said, 'When the captain keeps his cool, the ship keeps his cool. When the captain loses his cool, the ship loses his cool. What do you say we take over the ship?'" Hmm, that's cool. "Honey, let's go." So sure enough, we go out the hallway, and we start talking to people.

• 1:30:23Speaker 02

  She started talking to the husbands, the wives, and the brothers and sisters of the people. And then, I'll never forget, I peeked my head in this room, and there's this old man just looking like, just beat up. And I peeked my head, and I go, "Hey, you look like shit." And he picked his head up, because he was not expecting it, right? And I'll never forget, he goes, "Still look better than you." Oh, that's good. And I go, "You wanna head down the hallway and get a juice box?" And he goes, "Let's go, kid." And so we both have our IDs and we're like sliding our feet, right? Going in slow motion. But we changed that hallway. Just by talking and just by bringing in, "Hey, guys, we're here. Let's make the best of this."

• 1:30:56Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  Let's change the world. Because guess what? The world ain't done with me, and it ain't done with you.

• 1:30:59Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  So let's just figure this out.

• 1:31:01Lewis Howes?

  Dude, I love this, man. This is a crazy story, John. I want to acknowledge you for a moment for your perspective, because you've been through so many different challenges, but you have this mindset and this ability to perceive and retell a story to yourself to find joy and happiness. And I think that's the biggest lesson for me is most people don't know how to tell themselves a story about why they're here, why something happened, what their purpose is, what their mission is. But you continue to do that on every stage of life. And I think your adversities really make you a special human being. So I want to acknowledge you for your kindness, your energy, your heart, everything. You've got a book out. What's the book? Where can they get it?

• 1:31:41Speaker 02

  Well, I appreciate what you just said.

• 1:31:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  And that right there is what my book's about. And that's why it's called "Life is Magic." I'm a magician. I love magic, but the magic's not in the trick, right? The magic's in this world. It's in the story that you tell yourself. And it's in how you treat this world. And so I believe life is magic. I believe in the signs. I believe that I did get... I stepped out of the wind and caught a breeze. I believe that my mom's necklace did go on a whale and a sea turtle and found its way around the world. I believe all that. That's the magic right there. So the book's called "Life is Magic."

• 1:32:09Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  And it's my journey. It's my therapy. It's the trial. It's the journal entries. And it's the things I did to find happiness. And I'm proud to say this, I don't have a PhD. I'm a doctorate. But I've lived. And if you're somebody out there that's searching to find forgiveness in any part of their life, I really hope that this will help you.

• 1:32:26Lewis Howes?

  I love this, man. And you're on social media?

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, @JohnDornBoss. No H in John, baby.

• 1:32:32Lewis Howes?

  And my final question is, what is your definition of greatness?

• 1:32:37Speaker 00

  Wow. Keep it simple, stupid, right? Kiss, the famous marketing slogan. Keep it simple. Show up. If you show up, it'll happen. And you know what? I played with a lot of guys who are a lot more athletic than me.

• 1:32:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:52Speaker 00

  A lot better than me, a lot taller, a lot faster. But I told myself, the guy that hires me is gonna be proud he picked me. So what do you gotta do? You gotta show up every day. And what happened is I was on this path. And if you look at this table, here's that path right there. It just glows. And all of a sudden, people started jumping off the path over time. Kids, drugs, failure, it doesn't matter, excuses. I don't care what it is. But if you stay on that path and people are jumping off, guess what happens?

• 1:33:17Lewis Howes?

  Keep showing up.

• 1:33:18Speaker 00

  You show up and guess what happens? You become the oldest guy in the team.

• 1:33:21Lewis Howes?

  That's true. And you tie for the record.

• 1:33:23Speaker 00

  You wanna be great? Just show up.

• 1:33:25Lewis Howes?

  I love that.

• 1:33:26Speaker 00

  And watch what happens.

• 1:33:27Lewis Howes?

  John Doran best. Thanks, man.

• 1:33:28Speaker 00

  Hey, thank you. This was awesome, dude. Rock star.

• 1:33:30Lewis Howes?

  Appreciate it, brother.

• 1:33:34Speaker 00

  My friend, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Such an inspiring human being. I could have listened to him for hours, share his story. And I didn't want it to end. But it was so much there in this interview already that I thought you could get a lot of value out of this. So I hope you really enjoyed it. I hope it impacted you. I hope it touched your life. I hope you got some lessons from this. And life is not easy. Life is gonna throw a lot of challenges at you. It's going to constantly challenge you. And it's our responsibility to figure out the best way to react and respond to life's challenges. And in no way is this easy.

• 1:34:20Speaker 00

  And in no way are some of these things fair. You know, it's not fair what happened to John and all these different things. But when we can take the moments that are unfair, that are unjust, that hurt us in extreme measures, and we can take those moments.

• 1:34:39Speaker 00

  And find forgiveness, find the lesson, find acceptance. And we can move into something that's more powerful to heal ourselves, to impact those around us. That's where something magical comes. Not everyone is able to do this all the time. I'm not saying, you know, if something horrible happens to you that you just have a smile the next day and it's all good. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, life can be extremely challenging. And that's why the School of Greatness is something that I've created for myself. For myself to learn these tools, to learn these stories, to learn how to navigate the challenges of things that don't seem fair.

• 1:35:21Speaker 00

  The things that you don't want to have happen. But this is what it's all about. We are in this together. I've got your back and I hope you know that. I hope you know you are extremely loved. Even if you don't feel like people support you or understand you or love you. You are extremely loved. You are a unique human being, a one of a kind that will never be recreated. And we need you. The world needs you. And I hope you know that. I am just so grateful for John and I'm so grateful for you. I'm so grateful for you. And Nelson Mandela said, "When a deep injury is done to us, we never heal until we forgive."

• 1:36:04Speaker 00

  Forgiveness is probably one of the most challenging things to learn how to do if you've never done it before. And I am right there with you. It's taken me years to forgive certain moments, certain people, certain experiences. And it's taken years to forgive myself. You're not alone. I've got your back. I love you so very much. And you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.