67 John Jantsch: The Greatness Sales Strategy

John Jantsch knows sales. Not high pressure, slimy sales. We're talking about permission selling. We're talking about creating an experience for the buyer with such great results that they tell everyone how great your stuff is. The key to this selling strategy is to create massive value. It's the best way to do it. Thank you for downloading and we hope you enjoy the show. For resources and show notes, head over to www.lewishowes.com/67 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 67 with John Jantsch.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  Hey, hey, what is upgrades? It's a big week to week because I've got a big handball tournament coming up in Toronto. It's the Canadian National Championships and I'm going with my New York City club team up there. So getting ready, training hard for that and very excited about what's to come for our team. So wish us luck as we go up to Toronto to compete for the handball championships of there. Big episode this week. It's all about sales. Now, a lot of you may think, I don't like to sell. Or selling is sounds sleazy, or selling is for car salesmen's or whatever it may be. But in fact, in reality, everyone is in sales.

• 1:18Lewis Howes?

  And if you want to be successful, then you need to understand how to sell effectively. And there's ways to sell without being aggressive or having to reach out to people or cold call or go knock door to door or do anything like that that you don't like. There are ways to actually attract people to you so that you don't have to sell. That they're already sold before they even come to you. Now, what would it be like if you had any type of product, service, or business? And you didn't have to ever pick up the phone once to make a call or ever incentivize someone to buy something or ever discount your products or ever have to hard sell anyone?

• 2:03Lewis Howes?

  Imagine what would life be like if all you had to do was be there to answer people's questions? And they were already bought and they were already sold on what you were offering. That's what we talk about in today's episode with John. If you guys don't know who John Jantsch is, he's the author of Duct Tape Marketing and the Referral Engine, and he's got a new book out called Duck Tape Selling: Think Like a Marketer, Sell Like a Superstar. And it's pretty cool. It covers a lot of the different ways that you can really attract potential customers to you, as opposed to you having to go out there and hard sell anyone, anything. And it talks a lot about the product and the process of sales as well.

• 2:47Lewis Howes?

  So I think you're really gonna like this episode. John's a straight shooter, a great guy. He's been doing this for a long time, has a lot of experience, has been on the speaking circuit for a long time. He's very trusted by big companies, small companies, entrepreneurs, everyone. So this one is a good one, and it's all about understanding the sales process. And again, it's not what you think. So make sure to get out your pen and paper, get ready to take some notes. This is gonna be a good one for anyone. If you're a creative entrepreneur, if you're a small business owner, if you're in marketing, if you're in sales, whatever you're in, this is valuable. Even if you don't have a business yet, it's important to understand how to attract customers

• 3:31Lewis Howes?

  without you having to sell. So I think you're gonna like this, no matter what position you're in. Now let's go ahead and dive into this episode with John Jantsch.

• 3:45Lewis Howes?

  Thanks again, everyone, for coming back on the School of Greatness. I've got my friend John Jantsch on the call today. What's up, John?

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Hey, how you doing, Louis?

• 3:55Lewis Howes?

  Doing great. And when did we first connect? Was it like three or four years ago at a BlogWorld or something?

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, one of those conference type of things. But obviously, I was familiar with your work prior to that, but it is nice to actually put a face with the digital footprint.

• 4:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. John's been crushing it for years, much longer than I even started knowing about online marketing. He was doing it like 10 years before then. So he's really the guy that a lot of people go to when they want to learn about online marketing, I would say. You've kind of got it all down from a... Traditional business sense offline marketing, you brought it online, you're taking the online offline. You're really good at doing all that. So.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's kind of where I started. I mean, I'm, I'm actually, you, you were kind and just said, I've been doing this a long time. I'm really old is what it. Uh, but, uh, you know, I, I started my business before we were even doing any of this online stuff. And so I kind of feel like I have, I don't know if it's a place or it's just, uh, my cause is, is sort of to, you know, make all of this stuff real and not, not hypey and, and realize that there are, you know, the accountant out there that, uh, that's, you know, working in his community, uh, needs this stuff, the same as that person that's, you know, creating apps and, and wants to, you know, make a fortune online.

• 5:11Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. And you've got, you've got this new book out. It's called Duck Tape Selling. Think like a marketer, sell like a superstar. And a lot of people get confused with marketing and selling. And I guess I wanted to ask you quickly, what's the difference between marketing and sales?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I'm not, I'm not really helping that confusion because basically what I'm saying is they're, they're, they're almost the same thing. Or, or at least they need to be so fully integrated that there's no longer this, well, marketing owns the message and the salespeople own the relationship. I, I think the way that people buy now has changed so thoroughly that, that those two really have to be almost one in the same. They, they certainly have different functions, particularly in a larger organization, uh, where, you know, there is a sales department, there is a sales team. But what I'm trying to promote in this book is that it's all about the buyer's journey. And we have to, both in sales and marketing, kind of act as a guide in that journey. And we've got to be on the same page. We've got to be together, uh, to do that.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  And, and really, you know, I started out writing this book because, you know, the traditional salesperson, I mean, in a lot of ways, we don't need him anymore. Right? I mean, they, we, we got access to all this perfect information. And so we don't need somebody to show up and tell us what this year's features are on, on the product. We need somebody who can really add value very early on in the process, uh, stand out, you know, as an authority, as an expert that we can actually find and go to and say, okay, how can you help me think bigger about this problem as opposed to, you know, how can you probe for solutions, uh, to, you know, to the problems that I already know I have?

• 6:44Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. So when you think of like the ultimate salesperson or saleswoman or man, what does that person look like today? What do they do? To guide you through this selling process.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I think in the first part of that equation is it's probably a different person than we traditionally think of as the

• 7:04Lewis Howes?

  Like the car salesman or whatever.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Right, right, right, right. You know, the people person, uh, kind of person because actually I think some of the most effective salespeople today are, are engineers and technical people and service people that, you know, that are really good at educating perhaps and really good at, uh, you know, thinking analytically about, uh, problems or, or, or, you know, are very good at research and they're, they're actually helping me understand problems that I haven't encountered yet. So I think that, I think companies, and I talk about this in the book. I, I do think companies need to rethink a little bit, the profile or, you know, who they hire. But after that, I, I really think that, that it's that person that really can offer, can, can dig in and, uh, produce content, you know, build a reputation, think about building a reputation for expertise.

• 7:50Speaker 01

  So they're getting up to a podium and speaking, they're writing blog content, they're, they're aggregating and curating, you know, all the best of the best, uh, that's out there on the web or in an industry and they're, they're digesting it for a prospect or for a customer and, and really spitting it out. Um, in a, in a, you know, a much more concise or insightful way. Uh, they're using all of these social tools and social networks to really connect, not to, not to necessarily mine and prospect, but to, to really go deeper in companies and start finding ways to not only connect with people at a company, but, but maybe connect their connections together, uh, and really, you know, that, uh, uh, again, I think if I could boil the whole book down, you know, I talk about all these practices.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  It's really the person that, that's the most useful, delivers the most value, uh, that, that wins today. I mean, that's really how you can boil it all down.

• 8:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I really feel like whoever can solve your problem the easiest way and make it seem so simple for you. And so, you know, take the pain away from you, whether it be the information you need, uh, you know, the time, the energy, the, the solutions, whatever it may be, whoever can solve the problems the easiest, the fastest, I feel like is gonna get. You know, it's going to generate a sale on whatever it is they're selling or they're offering.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think there's no question that that is true, although I think that that the real superstars are actually going out and making people's problems visible and quantifiable that that in some cases they didn't even know they had.

• 9:19Lewis Howes?

  Here's your problem that you don't know.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  They weren't even looking for, you know, necessarily or or actually saying, look, you called me up because you said you want to be at two times. What if you thought about 10 times, you know, what would that look like? And I think that that's, you know, that's sort of guiding and consulting and pushing in some cases and and really even saying, you know, there's another great book that I cite a couple of times in my book, The Challenger Sale. I mean, that that kind of person that's out there saying, hey, I know you said you needed X. But and again, it's not just being contrary, it's actually saying, you know, have you considered this? You know, did you think about thinking bigger there? And I think that a couple of things, I think we provide more value to the the people that we are in business with when we do that.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  But I also think it clearly differentiates you. I mean, if you're if you're actually defining the problem, there's a lot of you. You have a much better chance, I think, of being the solution to the for the problem.

• 10:16Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Now, why has the world of selling changed? And I know you talk about this, I think, on page 233, but why? Why has it changed?

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I talked about it in in multiple places.

• 10:28Lewis Howes?

  All over here.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  I I think the bottom line is because the world of buying has changed. And I and I think.

• 10:35Lewis Howes?

  Why is why is that changed?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, because some of the things I talked about, I mean, the fact that we don't, not only do we not need a salesperson to show up and tell us the features and benefits. I mean, we don't really want that anymore. I mean, we I think most buyers want to go online. They want to interact with the content that's out there. They want to see what their friends like or or, you know, get referrals from people that that they trust. And I think we want to gather our own information that way. It doesn't mean we won't then need somebody to help us.

• 11:03Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Implement a solution. But I think what what the the, you know, the waiting around, I mean, there's a statistic that I cite from some research from the the CEB Board. It says 57, they surveyed 2,000 B2B buyers and they said 57% of them actually make a purchase decision significantly, you know, move down the path of making a purchase decision before they ever contact the company. So if, you know, today, you know, if you're going to be a salesperson, you're going to wait around for marketing to say, hey, we scored this lead. It's ready, you know, it's a hot prospect now. There's a really good chance all they want you to do now is show up and tell them how you can give them a lower price.

• 11:43Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  So, so, you know, if you're not out there, if you're not being found, you know, as a salesperson, or if I'm not seeing you speak at a conference, or if I'm not reading your blog post, or if you're not, you know, providing value to me before I ever start talking about buying something, it might be too late.

• 12:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. And that's why you create so much content, I'm assuming, online, right?

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I mean, it's the tough part, obviously. And, and, you know, one of the things I address in the book is that, you know, a lot of the things I talk about, some companies don't want their salespeople doing, or they, they're not measuring them on things like social networking and, and producing content. But I think that if you're going to get ahead today, you need to build, you know, even if your company's not supporting, and obviously, the perfect world is your company is in lockstep, sales and marketing, or, you know, are working together in all of these, you know, inbound marketing and inbound selling tactics. But if, if not, the individual salesperson, I think, needs to think in terms of building what I'm talking about as an asset, you know, their own, their

• 12:45Speaker 01

  own platform that in many cases can, can really move with them if, if indeed, they, you know, either have an organization that, that, you know, won't embrace that, or that's making it difficult for them to make a living. They can take that asset to maybe an organization that, that will appreciate. And I, I think it's, it's not much different than... It's really not much different than somebody going to night school to get an MBA. Right? I mean, they're putting in the extra time around their family because they're trying to advance their career. And I think you can look at some of the things I talk about like blogging and, you know, listening and creating, customized content as really a way to advance your career.

• 13:27Lewis Howes?

  My question is, how do you, where do you get your ongoing inspiration to create this content that you do create? And how does someone get, you know, stay inspired or find new things to talk about when maybe they've already written about it or created content about it?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a great question and it's one that I hear all the time. And the good news is, and I actually have a whole section of tools and ways that I get that inspiration. But for a lot of salespeople, quite frankly, you know, what are the questions that your customers or prospects are asking you on a daily basis? That's, that's, that's job number one is if you're going to start writing content, why not write content that really parallels the, the questions that you get asked your frequently? Because that, there's a really good chance that, that other people are, are interested in the answers to, to those questions as well. So, so to me, that's, that's the most kind of on target content that you can create.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  After that, I think that, that, you know, again, listening is, is the first step. You know, subscribe to a hundred blogs in, in your industry and your clients' industries, in, you know, related industries related to what you do, maybe in industries that aren't related. I mean, one of the ways that you can provide value is, is, is helping your clients in, in things that maybe aren't related specifically to your line of work. A great example is there are a whole lot of businesses out there still struggling with social media and, you know, what to do in their marketing. And, and, you know, I think that a lot of, a lot of individuals can make themselves more useful that, that even if their, you know, their job is to sell XYZ software solution,

• 15:07Speaker 01

  if they can actually become an expert in some other areas that they know their clients struggle with, I think they can add a tremendous amount of value by coaching in, you know, some of those other areas as well. And I, I really think that while that's kind of counter to the, you know, close deals, make calls, you know, mentality, I think that's how you build long lasting value or at least a reputation for, for delivering value.

• 15:32Lewis Howes?

  Right, and chapter seven, you have the title is teaching sells and you say that teaching sells today. You must attract leads, community and opportunities by publishing educational content. And this is something that I learned, kind of stumbled upon early on, which is when I realized teaching really does sell. And I never thought of myself as a teacher. Uh, you know, after I was done playing football, I never thought, oh, I'm going to be a teacher. But really, that's what we are. And anyone who's doing online marketing, we're, we're teaching, we're educating, we're creating content and showing, showing how to do something or how to solve something.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and think of the, think of the people that were attracted to that, right? Whereas if you'd have said, hey, I want you to come, I want you to come sit in front of me for 45 minutes while I sell you something, right? Not a whole lot of people are attracted to that, but I want you to come and I want to share this incredible information that I figured out how to solve this very specific problem that you have. Um, and then you pour your heart out, you give that information and they walk away saying, God, that low skin knows what he's talking about, you know? And I, and I think that that's, you know, that for some, I mean, you and I have been doing this for a long time. And I think for us, it's like, well, duh, of course. But I, but I think this concept is still fairly new, particularly for people who have been told, go make dials, go make calls, you know, knock on doors, cold call.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  I mean, that, that, you know, it's almost foreign to think, hey, go show up and give the cookies away. Um, and you will build so much goodwill that people are going to start asking you, you know, to come in and, and solve their problems when they have them. And that, that, you know, for some people, that, that, that's a leap of faith.

• 17:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. I, I do have a, I want everyone in, when they get the book on page 104. Well, I have an advanced copy, so maybe a different page, but page 104, I want everyone to mark in an additional resource and it says your personal listening list and my podcast isn't in there. So I want everyone to go in there and add this.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  You know, yeah.

• 17:27Lewis Howes?

  I think I don't, I don't think I launched it before you wrote this book.

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Well, that's, that's what the war, that's exactly where I was going.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  You know, these, the people don't, people don't realize this book process is like.

• 17:37Lewis Howes?

  I know, I know. And I just, I started this a year ago, so I completely get, I'm just teasing you.

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  Let me see what else we got here. What, um?

• 17:48Lewis Howes?

  What is the Marketing Hourglass? What does that mean? I saw that on page sixty-five, but I wasn't sure what that meant.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's something that I've actually been evangelizing, or I'm not sure if that's the right word, but it's something I created probably about ten years ago. And what it is, it's really this idea that, you know, it borrows kind of from the marketing funnel. But, but the difference here is that, that I believe that people, you know, no longer kind of travel this linear path of, okay, come into my, you know, marketing funnel, and I'll drop a bunch of content on you, and then we'll throw you over to sales, and then you'll buy from us, and then we'll throw you a service, and you'll be a loyal customer. The idea behind the Marketing Hourglass is that, that I believe that there are really seven behaviors that people actually want to exhibit in, in the companies that they buy from.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  And, and those seven behaviors are know, like, trust, try, buy, repeat, and refer. And so, the idea behind the Hourglass is that, that we need to build, you know, I keep using this term, you know, customer journey, but that we need to build content and processes and campaigns and touchpoints to, to really logically move people down that, that set of behavior, that path of behavior. And, and that, that organizations that really do that, that, that look at, okay, once somebody comes to know us, you know, what are we going to intentionally do to make sure that they want to know more, that they like what they're, what they're seeing? Or what are we doing to intentionally build trust? What are we doing to get them to try our products and services? Obviously, once they buy,

• 19:22Speaker 01

  what are we doing to keep that experience as high as, you know, everything that led to that point? What are we doing to make sure they get the results that, that we promised? What are we doing to make sure that they're so thrilled that they want to refer us? And companies that, that think in terms of that journey, and frankly, you know, you can build this kind of thing into a CRM system, but at the very least, it, it needs to be something that, that you really look at the touchpoints and say, okay, we, we need to build these intentionally. So many organizations, you know, are, they're trying to make the phone ring. They're trying to get that lead. They're trying to get somebody to a landing page. And then, once they buy, we sort of forget about them, you know? And a lot of what I actually talk about, and I think salespeople need to be involved in this

• 20:05Speaker 01

  in this process as well, is that, you know, what if we started with the assumption of rather than, how do we make the phone ring? What if we started with the question, how do I make sure that 100% of the people that buy from us also want to refer us?

• 20:17Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  And, you know, if you started from that point of view and worked backwards, you know, the whole phone ring thing would be pretty simple.

• 20:24Lewis Howes?

  It's so interesting because, you know, when I was starting out, I didn't, I was just learning and trying, you know, I was trying to get sales, I was trying to just get an income.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 20:33Lewis Howes?

  Generating sales. And then I was like, okay, how do I get new sales? And I was looking forward to new buyers. But I wasn't really cultivating the current buyers to, you know, ask for referrals, create other products and service for them, figure out what they, what else they needed. And it took me about a year and a half until I started doing that. And I realized I probably missed out on a big opportunity. But how does someone, you know, what do they do to go about figuring that out? You know, they're looking, you're starting out, trying to just get sales for one product you have. What do you do with those buyers next?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, again, I talk about working in reverse. So that idea of, you know, what would it take for everybody to, you know, be so happy they would refer us? One of the things that I think that that, so let's say you create that one product.

• 21:16Lewis Howes?

  I like that idea though.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  You know, if you start with that, you know, wouldn't you start saying, well, if they're going to refer us, we should give them this, and we should make sure that we have this touch. And we should make sure that, you know, 90 days after they buy, they're doing this and they're getting this. And, and I think that, I think that if you design your products and launches that way, I think a lot, I think we would add a lot more value. And consequently, you know, that, you know, that, that's how you actually then, you know, turn around and generate, you know, more word of mouth than referrals.

• 21:47Lewis Howes?

  So you should actually think about this before you create the products is what you're saying.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  I I think so. I mean, some of my most successful products are ones where where instead of saying, what's the copy? What's the sales copy for this gonna be? Um, I, we actually started with what do they get after? They've been a customer for ninety days, after sixty days, after thirty days.

• 22:06Lewis Howes?

  So what do you, I mean, okay, so I've got a product I'm launching in the next couple of weeks, an online course about, how to generate six and seven figures with webinars. And it's something I've been doing for a long time and been really successful at myself and teaching other people how to do. So what would you? Just give me some, you know, if you were me. And I haven't created the whole course yet, so I've still got time to, you know, do this. What would you implement? Uh, in terms of like a thirty or sixty day plan, maybe just one or two little things that you would throw in. In order to have the product almost sell itself because people want to refer it so much.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Well, the big thing, as you know, um, maybe from the courses you've purchased and certainly from other things you've sold. I mean, you're not, they're not going to refer, no matter how good the course is, they're not going to refer you if they're not actually taking action on your advice, getting results and, and all those. So I think you need to want, I, I think, uh, you need to build in, what are some ways that I can build some accountability into this? Maybe some gamification? You know, some, something where they earn extra rewards by, you know, actually participating. Um, I think that's probably the, the, the biggest, uh, missing ingredient from a lot of, uh, online courses I see. I mean, they could have tons and tons of great information, but

• 23:19Speaker 01

  if, if they can't get people to consume and use and take action on the information, then the person's not going to get a result. And so, you know, then it's like, well, that, that, you know, that stuff at Lewis's is no good, right? Cause I didn't do anything.

• 23:30Lewis Howes?

  I didn't do anything, sure. So ensure they take action.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so putting some accountability loops in and, and, and some, you know, make some games out of them taking quizzes or, you know, submitting their homework or, you know, something of that nature, having. You know, having, uh, whether it's weekly or, you know, some sort of Q and A session where they can like drop in and say, I just didn't get this part, Lewis, you know, how do I fix this or how do I do this? And I mean, and, and that's the part that I think, starting with this, you know, how, what, how do we get them a result? And working backwards, I, I think it, it ends up making you build more value into the product, which obviously costs you time and energy and whatnot, but I think in the end, uh, that they're going to get a better result and, and that's what's going to lead to people saying, hey, I, you know, I, this is, this is the most awesome stuff in the world.

• 24:17Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha. I like that idea a lot. And I think that's something that we can all do when we're creating or launching our products and services is to think about, you know, what they're going to get in the next 30, 60, 90 days. To ensure they love it so much, they're getting the most out of it, that they're going to like rave about it and tell three or five of their closest friends who would want to buy it as well.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  And I would, I, I'll tell you another strategy on the front end of that, uh, too, is that, you know, I think a lot of, one of the mistakes, a lot of, um, particularly product or course type of people make is they go out and they design the course and they write it up and they say, oh, this is great. This is great. This is great. I'll put this module here, this tool here. And then they launch the course and, and people are like, well, I don't really get it. Or, you know, I don't really, I don't know what I'm supposed to do here, or I don't really want, you know, that module. That doesn't mean anything to me. And, and so, uh, another great strategy, I think, is on the front end, you know, go out to your kind of A customers or, you know, anybody that, that you think is your target market and start saying, hey, I'm kind of thinking about designing a course that looks like X.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  That be a value? Would you want that? And so then the people that say, well, yeah, that would be a value. Then, then it's like, okay. Here's the outline for the course. Would that be a value? Okay. Here's the beta for the course. You want to take a look at it? And, and I will tell you that, that I have, um, I know in my own, you know, personal development have really, um, gotten such incredible insight, um, and feedback and, you know, what the heck, they catch the typos, you know, stuff, you know, stuff like that. But, but I think the real thing is you really kind of find out the rhythm on how to build this, how somebody's going to use it. Now, it's not, you know, it's not scientific research. You're not necessarily, you know, going out to thousands of people, but you really can find, uh, you can.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  You can figure out what works. You can figure out the size of the content. You can figure out what people will do. Um, in a way, you know, before, and, and it's not just a way to save yourself time and money. I mean, it's a way to make sure that when you do launch it to the bigger world. Um, it's been something that that's really been developed with your community instead of for them.

• 26:23Lewis Howes?

  I think that's brilliant and that's definitely something that everyone should take into consideration when they're doing any type of product or launch.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. The only thing I would advise you is don't, I've seen people do this. Don't make the mistake of saying, would you pay $49 for this?

• 26:37Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  $79 or 149 because they have absolutely no idea.

• 26:40Lewis Howes?

  And they'll say, and they'll say they'll spend a thousand dollars, but then when you offer, ask them to buy it, they won't, they won't spend that much.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  The only thing that matters when it comes to price is exactly the case you've built at the moment they're reading.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. Yeah, that's interesting. What is your thoughts on pricing then?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  Get as much as you can. Um, now what, what, what?

• 26:58Lewis Howes?

  What's your, what's your strategy for like pricing psychology, how to price something, how to know what something's worth? Uh, do you test it out first at a certain price you think the market could handle or do you?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Well, I'm like, you know, I was gonna say, I'm not sure I'm the world's greatest expert at that. What I really, my philosophy is build so much value that you can charge a premium.

• 27:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Um, and that's really something that you have to kind of do on your own. And I will say that most people under price, uh, what they're doing. But that's due in part because they're not willing to put the work in to either build the value or the reputation, you know, on the front end.

• 27:33Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  Um, so I think that's a, that's a big piece. Um, I, I tell you, there's a great book, um, Irrationally Predictable. Have you read that with Diane, Diane Rayly?

• 27:41Lewis Howes?

  I, I pretty much all my books on those topics, Derek Halpern reads and he just gives me the Cliff Notes. So I, I just ask.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  He's read Dan's book, I'm certain.

• 27:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  But, uh, that is really a great, interesting book about, um, about pricing and just about, you know, irrational behavior that people, you know, kind of do that you'd think, really? They chose B in that option, but it's really fascinating, fascinating book.

• 28:09Lewis Howes?

  Because people buy more on emotions than they do on anything else, right?

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's no question about that, but, but some of them are just irrational. I mean, you know, you, that's what's so fun about reading that book is that, you know, he sets up all these tests. And he says, well, you know, would you do A, B, or C? And, and most people are like, oh, see, no question, you know? But then he's got the research that, that really backs up why people end up choosing, you know, option B and it, and it just has.

• 28:35Lewis Howes?

  Like outrageous price or something or?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Well, or just, just weird little things like, you know, one of the, one of the examples I remember off the top of my head is of course, you know, Amazon just kind of rocked the whole world with free shipping, right? And so they're charging $5 more than everybody else, but you get free shipping. So logically you think it's the same price or maybe you're even paying more for Amazon. But that free shipping thing just like trips everybody's trigger.

• 28:59Lewis Howes?

  The emotional, yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And so all of a sudden, you know, it's like, I'm no longer comparing because they've got free ship. They, they literally forced the online world into free shipping.

• 29:08Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  You know, nobody had a choice anymore.

• 29:11Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy. Yeah. Interesting. I love this stuff. Okay. What about building an email list? This is, uh, in my opinion, and I'm sure you're going to say one of the most important things that any entrepreneur or a small business owner can do is, build your list and it doesn't matter how great your content is, if you're not really building that, potential customer list. What did you say?

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and that's one that, you know, I've been on a long time, um, online a long time. And that's one that's really kind of evolved and changed and it's been in and it's been out, you know? But I, I started building an email list because, you know, in say early 2000, you know, that was a, there were, there was no social media. There was, you know, we didn't have followers and fans and things. Um, and it was pretty interesting that, uh, there's no question that that is, and, and all kinds of research to back up that, you know, from a conversion standpoint, still, you know, even with open rates, you know, down, you know, I used to get 80% open rates. Can you imagine that?

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Back in the day, uh, I mean, even with, uh, with open rates, you know, down to, you know, next to nothing, it's still the, the highest converting form of, any kind of marketing or advertising, uh, that's out there. But, but you know, what, what really makes it pay is when you do, and you mentioned Derek Halpern, you know, great, great example of somebody that not only obsesses about getting email subscribers, really delivers a ton of value. People, people open, I would suspect that he has one of the higher open rates out there because, you know, he's just so over the top with delivering value and, and, you know, really his, his community really relates to him. I mean, he puts his, his personality into, into everything for good or bad. No, I'm just kidding.

• 30:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:51Speaker 01

  And, and so, you know, it's not just, it's not just put forms all over your stuff so the people will subscribe. Obviously you have to have good content. That's what will attract people. But I think it's also the, the, the way, when, when you realize how valuable it is, you know, you put the effort into, to keeping that list. You know, I, I see a lot of people that, I won't name any names, but I work with really large organizations all the time. And, and they'll do, you know, yes, we have a mailing list of 350,000, you know, subscribers. And like two of them, you know, will respond, you know, to, to a deal that they put out, you know? And, and it's because they've just so abused their list, you know? It's a big company. They do lots of promotions. So they get lots of subscribers to download their, you know, free white paper or something.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  But then they just so abuse them that, that they basically, you know, either unsubscribe or they just completely ignore everything they send out.

• 31:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Interesting. Okay. But you'd say the lit-

• 31:45Speaker 01

  But yeah, so, so go back to, you know, I guess I should actually answer the question. But, but, but no question, my most valuable asset. But one of the things that's really changed is now we have all these other, other avenues and vehicles like Twitter and, and Facebook. And the thing is though, I still contend that what you want to do with any of those mediums is get somebody into your community in a way that they can hear from you frequently. They can spread the word, they can share. And so participating in all those social networks is, is very valuable. But I think you also need to think in terms of integrating that participation into, you know, other elements, including email.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  I, I, four or five years ago at Social Media Marketing World, I guess it wasn't four or five years ago, it was two years ago. This is the first one at Social Media Marketing World. Stood up in front of a whole bunch of roomful of social media, you know, folks that were all, you know, jazzed up on Twitter and Facebook and said the the prime or the best reason to participate in social media is to capture an email address. And you just thought I'd, you know, I had committed Harrison. But but, you know, the point I was trying to make is that, you know, that sort of bringing people into the community in a way that that they not only want to subscribe, but they want to hear from you in their email inbox. I don't care how many apps and and, you know, mobile devices and, you know, everything else that we end up creating today, you know,

• 33:11Speaker 01

  email is still king.

• 33:12Lewis Howes?

  It is. Yeah. And what are just a couple, you know, keys or strategies you have for building an email list besides, you know, you talk a lot about it here in the content and creating the content, but what are just some tips for you?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Well, I, you know, this I'll start off with a controversial one that obviously when somebody, if you're driving traffic, if people are finding, if people finding your content, they're coming to your website, you know, you want to make sure that that that person who is reading something they think is valuable is also called to subscribe to your email list. And so, you know, the the kind of standard stuff like a form on every page, you know, that's, you know, in a sidebar or something. I think that's pretty obvious. But I still believe that that, you know, the pop ups do. And again, I should define that. I mean, the the old world, you know, pop ups were pretty, we're pretty obnoxious. But some of

• 34:10Speaker 01

  the more stylish, clean pop ups, they're actually popovers that kind of take over the screen. They can be smart, too. I mean, if you've come to my site in the last 30 days, I won't show you the pop up, you know, I won't show it to you because you click around on every page. I mean, you know, there's, there's ways to make these, you know, more intuitive. You can have them, you know, somebody's got to scroll down farther in a page and read maybe half the content before they get it. So it's not just in their face right away. But there's just, you know, as much as Some of your listeners will write to you, Lewis, because of this and say, you know, I will never again talk to anyone who has a pop up on their page because people are passionate about those.

• 34:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  I've tested them and seen two and three and 400% increase in subscribers. Now, the content's got to still be good. People have to want to receive your content or it doesn't matter how many subscribers you have, but that's certainly one of those that I think people should take the time to test before they count them out. The other kind of simple things, I mean, I use on my site a really simple plugin called WP subscribers.

• 35:21Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  That allows me to put a box at the end of my content. So, you know, somebody's read through a blog post and I've got one of these sites that's been around a long time. I've got 3,000 blog posts. So, I mean, I have people coming in from, you know, content from 2004 and 2005 and that's the only page they came to, right? And so, so I want to make sure that at the bottom of that, they thought that was great. I give them the opportunity to say, hey, you never want to miss, you know, this great content again. So, I think you want to explore, you know, all of those kinds of ways to be capturing leads, but I think you also want, you know, email addresses, but obviously the bar has been raised to a degree that, you know, people don't want to give their, people don't want

• 36:05Speaker 01

  any more emails, so they make, they think long and hard about who they give an email address up to. And so, you know, so even though it's free, it better be worth it.

• 36:15Lewis Howes?

  Right. Now, I mean, 3,000 blog posts, that seems like so much. Do you outsource any of this or do you write it all yourself?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  You know, I have started running, we run one blog post, one guest blog post a week. Been doing that for about a year, but I actually started blogging in August of 2003.

• 36:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  So, going on. Close to 11 years.

• 36:38Lewis Howes?

  Was I born then yet?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  I get it. That's, that's, that is, that is a really good question.

• 36:43Lewis Howes?

  That's amazing. Yeah. That was like before blogging was even.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  Well, it was really when it was, yeah, I mean, it was really when it was created. We didn't call it blogging. Actually, it was a weblog. Um, that I created and, and to truthfully, I had, I had a product I wanted to sell online. It just seemed like a really easy way to, to write content. I had already concluded that writing good content was how I was going to get SEO traffic. That part probably even in the early days was true. Uh, as it is today. And so it wasn't like I had this crystal ball and said, this blogging thing is going to be huge. You know, I just saw it as a tool that would make it easy to create content.

• 37:16Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. That's interesting. Uh, so you are doing some of the, the content outsourcing then now?

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so, yeah. And, and I really recommend that people do that. Um, I, I don't have the bandwidth to do a lot of guest blogging myself. It's out to other people's sites. Uh, but I really recommend it for a lot of businesses, um, as a, as kind of a networking tool.

• 37:38Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  So, so don't just think of it as, oh, I need four blog posts. Let me get some Porsche left to write some for me. You know, think in terms, uh, I, I really get a lot of traffic and a lot of links from, you know, when, when people do write a guest post, you know, for us, they link back to it. They talk about it. Um, they share it in their, uh, social, uh, um, networks. And so, you know, it's, I think it's great for a lot of people. It certainly does help with the content production, but I think it's also, it's, it's really how you get the best links, I think, uh, today is by people pointing out, you know, your blog content. Uh, and one of the ways you really incentivize that, if you will, is, is, is to have, you know, people that are in your industry that makes sense, uh, that, that, you know, want to write, uh, for, for publications to,

• 38:23Speaker 01

  you know, to, to contribute content.

• 38:25Lewis Howes?

  Right. Now, a couple of questions left. What are some habits that marketing and sales leaders embrace that you'd say, and how do you encourage?

• 38:39Lewis Howes?

  Your team or how do you encourage anyone to develop those habits?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Well, I, you know, I think you're talking about one of the, the third section of the book. I actually spend the entire section on, on the, the sales, what I call sales coach, you know, or the sales manager or the VP of sales, or quite frankly, it can be the owner of a business that has a salesperson or two. Um, and, and really a, a couple of things that, that I talk about is that in a lot of organizations, it's not, it is habits that need to change, but it's actually the entire culture that, that, you know, needs kind of a shift. Um, and so a lot of what I talk about is, is, you know, who they need to hire probably needs to change, uh, but also how they coach and, and, you know, a lot of this, a lot of

• 39:27Speaker 01

  organizations have salespeople that they went to them tomorrow and said, you need to start blogging, you know, they, they, first off, they might not even know what it is, uh, or they, they certainly would think I'm not a writer, I, you know, I, I have no business doing that. Uh, so I think that, that, that a lot of this, you know, you don't flip a switch and have inbound sales professionals. Um, I think a lot of the, the habits that need to happen is you need to start cultivating and training and encouraging, um, things like writing and, and speaking and personalizing content and actually working, um, with marketing. I think one of, I have an entire chapter really on the fact that I think the sales, you know, leader in an organization needs to be the one to bridge the gap really back

• 40:10Speaker 01

  to marketing in a lot of organizations to say, hey, we know more about the customer than you do. We know more about, you know, what the customer is actually saying that, that, that is a benefit of doing business with us than you do. Um, and, and really start, you know, building kind of cross-functional, uh, autonomous teams where sales and marketing and service could actually work on building revenue as opposed to, you know, bur, you know, working in specific departments. So, you know, I spend a lot of time talking about, uh, uh, really those kind of changes in, in the entire culture of an organization.

• 40:43Lewis Howes?

  Sure. And before I ask you the final question, I just wanna let everyone know to make sure to check out the book Duck Tape Selling Think Like a Marketer Sell Like a Superstar. You can check it out over at ducktapeselling.com. I think it's also ducktapeselling.com as well, right?

• 41:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and one of the things I'll tell people, whether you get the book or not, I have, you know, I talk about a couple hundred resources in the book and people and tools and things. And so you can check out Duck Tape Selling. I have a resource page that goes kind of chapter by chapter. So if you have the book, I don't know if you've ever been one of those people, you're reading a book and they list all these cool tools and you think, oh, I need to check that out.

• 41:23Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so now you can just read along and just go, okay, I can jump over to page, you know, chapter 17, the tools, and start checking those out. Again, even if you don't buy the book, it's probably a good page to visit. And I can assure you that Lewis Howes' podcast will be on that.

• 41:43Lewis Howes?

  There you go. I appreciate it. So the final question that I ask everyone, which is, what is your definition of greatness?

• 41:52Speaker 01

  Well, gosh, you know, have you had anybody just say, I have no idea?

• 42:00Lewis Howes?

  Probably.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Probably. You know, to me, it's probably, it's probably significantly different, but then you'll turn around and say, no, every entrepreneur says that. But to me, greatness, personal greatness, at least for me, is really just the ability to feel like you're doing your best work. You're working with the people that you really respect, and people that you enjoy spending time with and you enjoy getting a result for. And consequently, you know, you wake up at 5:30 in the morning and think, yes, I get to do this again.

• 42:33Lewis Howes?

  I love it. You are one of the hardest working guys I know in the business and one of the nicest and most humble. So I appreciate you, John, for gracing us with your wisdom, your information, for all the amazing content that you continue to create year after year. And I cannot wait to see you sometime with the next event soon, my man.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  I really appreciate you bringing me to your community, because I know that, you know, anytime that somebody does that and opens up and brings somebody in, you know, You are lending your trust and so I appreciate the trust that you've shown in me.

• 43:10Lewis Howes?

  Of course, you're the man, John. I appreciate it.

• 43:21Lewis Howes?

  And I hope you guys enjoyed this episode. If you want to learn more about what we covered, go head over to the show notes over at lewishouse.com/67. That's lewishouse.com/67. You can get all the notes that we talked about. I linked up everything there, have all the resources we've covered in this episode. So make sure to check that out. And if you enjoyed it, go ahead and share it with your friends over on Google+, on Facebook, on Twitter, and tag yourself on Instagram. You guys know how much I love getting pictures with where you are in the world. A lot of you are sending pictures of you at your work and how these episodes are supporting you to get in the zone and in flow during your work. A lot of you are doing it when you're working out. You're sending these amazing, beautiful pictures

• 44:04Lewis Howes?

  on the top of mountains and at CrossFit gyms around the world. So continue to post those pictures over on Instagram @lewishouse. I'd love to see what you guys are up to. And it's a blessing to be able to have this platform and connect with you each week. So I'm going to continue to do more episodes each month. I was doing one a week before and as you can see, we're doing about six a month right now and I might step it up to eight a month. So keep sharing this, promoting this. Make sure to subscribe on iTunes, SoundCloud, and Stitcher and leave a review over on iTunes as well to help us increase our rankings

• 44:45Lewis Howes?

  and get the message out there to increase the greatness around the world. Thanks again, guys. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.