61 What Sharing My Childhood Rape Taught Me About Being a Loving, Vulnerable, Free Man with Jonathan Fields

I was 5 years old when he raped me. The only other memories I had before that vivid experience was my first day at Kindergarden where I colored in an outline of Clifford The Big Red Dog, and taking brownies to pre school for classmates on my birthday. Facing it was one of the most uncomfortable and emotionally challenging moments I've ever had... but it changed my life forever. In this episode I dive into what happened, the weight I carried for so long and the lessons I learned along the way. I want to thank my dear friend Jonathan Fields for guiding me during this interview and creating a space for me to share so openly. Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:23Speaker 00

  What is up, guys? Lewis Howes here. And today, I am with my good friend Jonathan Fields. And I asked him to come on to facilitate this podcast, this episode, because I wanted to completely open up to you guys about an experience that I had. And I wanted to have him on here to really facilitate and support me in navigating this conversation. And I think it's really important for me to have someone like Jonathan that I trust and that I feel comfortable with, so that I can talk to about this, this subject that we're about to uncover. So, thanks for coming on.

• 1:02Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, so, I mean, thank you for, for inviting me on. Thank you for, uh, thank you for your trust. Thank you for, um, this opportunity to sort of like have this conversation so we can share something. It's, uh, yeah, I mean, it's kind of interesting. We've been friends for a number of years now. And, um, and, you know, you, I think, appear to everybody on, on the outside to be this golden boy. Like, you can't do wrong. Everything you touch, you know, seems to light up, you know? And, um, amazing projects, tremendous in business, tremendous in life, star athlete, all these things. And, um, and you've been interviewed, I'm guessing, hundreds of times now.

• 1:43Jonathan Fields?

  Everyone from all over social media to mainstream media, TV, print, radio. And, um, written, you, I don't know, done, what, 700 some odd webinars? So, it's like, people feel like they know you.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:58Jonathan Fields?

  And, um, and what's interesting is, you know, um, you, you've always told this, you know, you've got your hero's journey, which is like the story that you tell publicly about how you were a, a pro athlete and you got injured. And that was like the inciting, that was like the big dark thing that you had to overcome that set you on this new journey. And, and I always knew that, like, that was a story that I always knew. And, you know, we've been friends for a while now. And then, um, It was probably a couple of months ago where like you came to to me and dropped a different bomb, you know, and and and shared that there's actually a much bigger thing.

• 2:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:35Jonathan Fields?

  That that you've been trying to work your way through that happened a lot earlier in life. And it's just recently that, you know, it's really started to bubble up to the surface and you've been able to start to process it. So I guess some, I I guess we should just kind of dive into it rather than keeping people on the surface here. But something happened to you when you were a kid that changed everything.

• 3:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a, it was one of my first memories that I, you know, can really remember as an experience. And I was, I was sexually abused or raped by another man. And I was five years old. I'll kind of walk through a brief story of that. I was five years old. And, you know, my parents were working full time jobs. There was four of us kids. So after school, we would all go to a babysitter. And I went to a specific babysitter. I don't know if my sisters were at the same one. I think maybe one of them was because she was younger. The other one was probably going home because she was old enough. And so after kindergarten, I remember my babysitter was like across the street or a block away from the school.

• 3:45Speaker 00

  So we would walk across the street and go hang out at the babysitter's for a couple of hours until my mom, it was till it was five o'clock.

• 3:54Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, it's like latchkey kid. A lot of, a lot of people grew up that way, like every day. You know, you're growing up in Ohio. It's a normal thing.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I was probably there for a while, like, I don't even remember, maybe six months or a year, the whole year. And I remember one specific day, you know, as we'd go there, we'd have, we'd play in the backyard, we'd. Play games, whatever it would be, and there would be like peanut, I remember there always being peanut butter sandwiches, peanut butter and jelly, but I didn't like jelly, so I'd always just have peanut butter sandwiches because I was picky. Um, and we'd just kind of hang out for a couple hours. And one day, one of my experiences I remember is that the babysitter was a woman, like probably in their forties, an older woman. And I remember she had a son.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  And I never, I don't remember ever seeing the son until this one day, and he was probably in his late teens, from what I remember. I only saw him once. And he was, he had his door open to his room, and he had Nintendo on. And at that time, you know, Nintendo was huge back in the late eighties. And I was like, I want to play Nintendo. So I asked him, I said, hey, can I play Nintendo? And you're like five years old? Five years old. Yeah, I said, hey, can I play Nintendo with you? And, and he said, yes, but you have to do something for me, or something along those lines. He said, yes, but we need to do something first, or you have to do something for me, and then I'll let you play.

• 5:18Speaker 00

  I said, okay, you know, I'll do anything, whatever. So he just takes me into the bathroom and

• 5:27Speaker 00

  and it was like so nonchalant. When I remember back at it, it wasn't like weird for him. It was like so nonchalant, what happened? Like when he sexually abused me. And, you know, he had me get on the floor. I remember him having me get on the bathroom floor and performing the sexual act on me. And I remember like just not knowing what was, that it was right or wrong, just kind of like, I'm doing this because I wanted to play Nintendo. And I thought that it was just normal.

• 5:57Speaker 00

  And he like finished whatever he was doing, and then I went and played Nintendo. And I remember.

• 6:07Speaker 00

  Like during it, you know, it's a very vivid memory for me, actually. It's one of my first memories and I remember during it.

• 6:13Jonathan Fields?

  Because a lot of people don't remember anything.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, I remember this vividly, like, I remember the smell, the texture, taste, the room, I remember everything, the sounds, I remember this whole experience. But I can't remember the guy's face, like, I can't remember what he looked like. And if I saw him today, I probably wouldn't remember. So maybe I've run into him and I didn't know. Because I only saw him that one time, it was for like an hour or something during this whole like day. And I don't, you know, I don't know what he's up to now, I don't know what's happened or what he's doing or anything. But I just remember, it wasn't until like later, probably when I was like an early teen,

• 6:58Speaker 00

  did I realize what had happened.

• 7:01Jonathan Fields?

  So I mean, at the end of that, on the day that it happened, did you go home, did you tell anyone or just wasn't?

• 7:08Speaker 00

  I didn't say anything to anyone.

• 7:09Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  First off, because I kind of didn't know what was going on. And, yeah, I just like went about my day, my normal life and, you know, went home. But I remember being, you know, it being a moment, an experience that stacked up with other experiences that made me extremely defensive and guarded, like, throughout my childhood, through my life.

• 7:33Jonathan Fields?

  And obviously, I mean, we're sitting, how old are you now?

• 7:35Speaker 00

  Thirty, I'll be thirty-one in a few days.

• 7:37Jonathan Fields?

  Right, so you're thirty-one and, and, and this is one of the most vivid memories of your childhood, so it's stuck with you for

• 7:44Speaker 00

  It's stuck.

• 7:44Jonathan Fields?

  A reason.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  It's stuck, and here's what's interesting, it's stuck, and I didn't tell anyone about it my entire life, I told my sociology professor my freshman year of college. It was like a big class, like three hundred students, like just a basic sociology class. I told him at the end of like, one of his lectures, as he was talking about rape and sexual abuse, and it kind of like came back in my memory, I was like, man. Was this a bad dream or did this actually happen? But I remember every year I would remember it. Like, could vividly remember it. It wasn't a dream. I remember it so vividly. And I think I tried to make it act like it didn't happen. Like, I tried to just put it out on my head and just like go about my life. Like it didn't happen. And I think being a straight man.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  You know, I tried to like block it even more. Because it was a man and it wasn't like a woman.

• 8:35Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, and you're also, I mean, you're growing up in the Midwest.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, Ohio.

• 8:40Jonathan Fields?

  Right, you know, in, right, and you're, you know, an emerging athletic star in the town. There's a lot of attention and focus on you and your family because your family has a lot of prodigies in the family. So, so, and you're, you're a man, you know, according to the Midwestern straight man definition of like, and this is, so. At, at, do you remember at what point? As you kind of like start to revisit this, like you start to realize this wasn't normal?

• 9:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, I remember. In, in like high school, starting to be like, this isn't normal. And I think probably when I had like one of my first couple girlfriends in high school. Like, we were started opening up and talking about, you know, everything. And I didn't tell them this thing. You know, it was like, we're telling each other our deepest, darkest secrets and really getting intimate and vulnerable as like high school kids, you know, as much as a high school could, kid can. And I just remember being like, oh, you know, is there anything about you I don't know, you know, or asking questions like that? Sharing our intimate and vulnerable moments and I couldn't tell them this one thing. It was like, I could tell them everything else, like my brother going to prison, you know, my parents.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Getting divorced and like the experiences I had as a kid with that and. You know, stealing, I had a stealing problem when I was in middle school and I had to steal something every day about how. I was opened up about how I couldn't read and was felt like stupid in class all the time, but I couldn't talk about this one thing. So I was like. Why am I so ashamed of this thing that I went through?

• 10:13Jonathan Fields?

  Is that, and that was like in your mind, it was shame?

• 10:16Speaker 00

  I was like extremely ashamed. I was like, when I thought about it and as I was growing up into like puberty and just like, yeah, this athletic guy, I was really ashamed. I was really angry. I was, that's, I was taken advantage of. And I remember just feeling like someone took advantage of me without my control, without my consent. And that really pissed me off. And I look back at, you know, as a, if I'm looking at it from a uneducated psychologist's point of view, I would see that, you know, that was one of the instances that made me really react in the ways I reacted in, in sports, in certain relationships.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  When things would happen, there were trigger points for me when I felt manipulated or attacked or abused emotionally, whatever it may be. Then I would kind of puff my chest and be the alpha male in the room and kind of a clash back to protect myself. And

• 11:15Jonathan Fields?

  So it's like you're responding not just to, to the immediate threat, but also to like this history since you were five.

• 11:22Speaker 00

  Everything that's ever happened to me, I'm like, I must protect myself.

• 11:25Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 11:26Speaker 00

  Type of attitude, ego, and you know, a threatening,

• 11:32Speaker 00

  you know, angry way as opposed to communicating, you know, in a loving.

• 11:38Jonathan Fields?

  Was there ever any, cause I mean, like, I mean, God willing this, I will never be on the wrong side of something like this and, and I, I haven't, you know, in, in my life. But, you know, when you, when you hear other people share their stories, there's also sometimes people feel that there's not just a sense of shame, but also blame. Like there, was that a part of what you're, yourself talking anyway, or was it?

• 12:04Speaker 00

  You know, I was already reflect on it. I don't think I blamed myself for any, for it happening. But I just feel.

• 12:12Speaker 00

  Like, I felt really ashamed to the point where I thought if anyone knew about this, they wouldn't care about me.

• 12:19Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Like, they wouldn't respect me, they wouldn't love me, that they would make fun of me. Cause I already felt like I was being made fun of because I wasn't strong in school. So I was like, I don't want to give people a reason to, you know, know something so vulnerable about me that they would just make fun of me more or hold it against me.

• 12:38Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  You know, or whatever. I was just like in such fear to let anyone know about this. My family didn't know. Again, the only person I knew was this sociology professor that ended up transferring schools after one semester. So I only, you know, saw him a couple of times.

• 12:54Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 12:55Speaker 00

  And he was like, you know, I'm really sorry to hear this, but you know, this is pretty common actually, and you're probably not the only young boy that he did this to.

• 13:07Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Based on history and based on, you know, statistics. And I was just like, this is messed up.

• 13:13Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  You know?

• 13:15Jonathan Fields?

  What was it, um, what was it that stopped you from, from telling anyone in your family?

• 13:22Speaker 00

  I think again, I like, like shame. I didn't want them to like, I don't know.

• 13:28Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, you also grew up, I mean, can we share this? You grew up in a pretty faith-driven family.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:33Jonathan Fields?

  Right? Where there was, you know, you were believers.

• 13:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:36Jonathan Fields?

  Um.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  My dad was strong, like, Christian believer, yeah.

• 13:39Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, does that play any role in?

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Maybe, I mean, I had, my dad was like the most amazing human being, uh, from ages thirteen to twenty-two. And he was an amazing human being, extremely loving father. From when I was born to about thirteen, but I just lived in fear with him because of his authority, because of his like, he had some anger. Uh, and, and probably wasn't happy and fulfilled completely when I was a child, but then like when I was twelve, thirteen, it like switched and he was the happiest, most loving human being. So I remember just being in fear when I was a kid around my dad, although I never felt like he didn't love me. Like he would always be there at night and tuck me in and like have me say a prayer.

• 14:22Speaker 00

  And like tell me how much he loved me, but the his actions were very like fearful for me as a young child when he was just like this big authoritative. You know, intelligent man. And I was just like afraid it's not to mess up, you know, but I'm assuming assuming most kids had like experiences where they're like, you know. Afraid of their data sometimes. I don't know.

• 14:41Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  But I never, you know, I just was like, I didn't want to upset him or my parents or my siblings. I wanted them to love me. I wanted to be loved by them and I wanted them to accept me. And, you know, I just, I don't think I was had the self-awareness. Or the mindfulness at that age to be like, this is what happened to me, mom and dad. And, you know. I was just trying to like, get by, you know, one day at school at a time. You know, with like having friends.

• 15:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. So, so you finally, um, you finally tell that first person and, and he, you know, when you're the sociology professor in college and. And he comes back with this whole, well. You know, welcome to the club, almost like type of like, you know, this is really pretty common and it's probably happened to a lot more people.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:31Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. Where do you go from there?

• 15:34Speaker 00

  You know, that's when I was eighteen and I remember.

• 15:40Jonathan Fields?

  So it's like your freshman year in college.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  Freshman in college. I remember just being like mad. I just remember being like, this is a messed up.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Why is this happening? Why do people do this? You know, wanting to come from a place of protecting myself and really making sure this doesn't happen to other people around me. You know, it made me come up with a lot of thoughts like, is it safe to have kids? If this potential is out there, like.

• 16:07Jonathan Fields?

  So you're already like sort of projecting.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Well, it's just like, who can I trust? And, you know, or why did I create this in my life? And why didn't, you know, why did it happen to me? And why does it happen to other kids? And what, what are we creating in the world? I don't know if I thought about this at the moment, but what are we creating in the world that? People don't feel that they're getting the love that they want so that they have to go off and do this. Whether it's with kids or other, you know, adults. So.

• 16:34Jonathan Fields?

  What, when, when you, um, when you told the professor, like in the moment that you were telling him, what was, what's going, as you're walking up to the podium?

• 16:43Speaker 00

  I was afraid. Well, I went to his office. It was like after script.

• 16:46Jonathan Fields?

  It's not gonna be public with everybody around, yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 00

  I was just like, I feel like I have to tell someone. Cause I haven't told anyone and what it was like.

• 16:53Jonathan Fields?

  And it was really, it was like the subject of the class.

• 16:55Speaker 00

  It was like the subject. It was like, it's time. Yeah, I was just like, I want to tell someone. Like, it was just a secret I had that no one knew. And I just wanted to like, yeah, talk it out. Cause it's been like festering in my body for 15 years or whatever. And I remember just like trembling and shaking when I was talking to him. He made me feel very comfortable. He was like really relaxed. I'm sure he's experienced a lot of this before, you know, talked about it for years. And so, but I still felt like ashamed. He made me, again, it made me feel not ashamed. He was like, this is not your fault. This is something that he's probably did before you and probably continue to do.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  So it kind of gave me like, a first step of me being like, okay, it's, it's not, I'm not a bad human being for this happening to me. I still felt ashamed. I didn't tell anyone and open up for another 12 years about it. But, uh, it was kind of like a first step for me.

• 17:49Jonathan Fields?

  I, I mean, the, the moment after you told him, was there any sense of relief or was it just like?

• 17:57Speaker 00

  I think, I think there was a sense of relief right away, but still like I was living in fear.

• 18:02Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 18:03Speaker 00

  I was like living in fear, living in resentment, living in a place of not forgiving myself.

• 18:11Jonathan Fields?

  I'm out, but now what the hell do I do?

• 18:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like, it was a first step, but I was still trapped in this like emotional prison of fear. And I think each year as I got older and became more mindfulness about myself and the world and what I've created and what I haven't created.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  I was able to relax and like drop into my, I don't know, peacefulness about it. Because I was just like kind of remembering it and I felt okay with it myself, but I just wasn't able to share with anyone else.

• 18:46Jonathan Fields?

  Right, that's the thing. It's like that there was one person, but that didn't, it's like that didn't start this external series of things. Where it's like, okay, let me see a therapist. Let me tell my close friends. Let me tell my, my mom, dad, whatever it is, or my brother, my sister.

• 19:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:00Jonathan Fields?

  It was like one and done. So there's this like emotional like, okay. But then it's like, you're almost like you're going back into the cave after.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  I hadn't fully dealt with it and it definitely showed up in relationships. Like I was still coming from a place of reacting in relationships with, with friends, with business partners, with, with, you know, intimate relationships with women that I was dating. And, um, and I remember when things were great, you know, I was, I was great. And when things, when, at the moment someone started to, I started to feel attacked in any emotional or physical way. Whether that was the case or not, whether they were attacking me or not, when I started to feel attacked, I would drop in defensive mode

• 19:49Speaker 00

  and attack back. Like I needed to protect myself. Like my body was telling me I needed to protect myself. There was nothing like my mind had good reason. It was like I hadn't dealt with whatever I was making me defensive still.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  And, um, so it showed up and I was living in a place of fear in relationships when it would get tough or vulnerable. Or my, you know, intelligence was at, at stake or like, you know, someone's tried to attack who I was as a person and whatever it may be, you know.

• 20:25Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, and also, you know, like you lived in a really interesting world at this time. It's like you go through college, you're a huge football star in college, you know, and then you come out and you're and you're playing pro ball.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:36Jonathan Fields?

  And it's and they're just, people make assumptions.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:39Jonathan Fields?

  About who you are, who you should be, the type of man you are, the type of man you aren't. Um, and so there's like, you're in the pub, you're very, you're a very public person.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And at the time, also, my dad got in this extreme car accident. I don't know if I talked to this about you.

• 20:57Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, we've talked to that.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  And it was, he was in a coma for three months and we didn't know if he was gonna live or die. And it was like, I had this amazing father who was always there for me. Every game around the country, he flew to be at in high school and college. And it was like, I had this amazing, you know, hero that I was in fear of, like, you know, growing up and unsure about, but then was really there for me with everything, emotionally, physically, like, he was so loving, so compassionate, understanding through my, like, growing pains as a, a young adult, you know, like most teens go through. And it's just like, and then he was gone. And he's alive, but he was like, gone. And we had to like, teach him how to walk and talk and.

• 21:39Jonathan Fields?

  They say he had serious brain trauma.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  Serious brain trauma. And so I was going through that, like, losing my dad in a sense, um, during that time as well, and not, didn't know who to lean on, really.

• 21:50Jonathan Fields?

  But it's so interesting to you because you talk, like, on the one hand, you talk about your dad as someone you lived in fear of.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:57Jonathan Fields?

  And then you also talk about him as like, the most loving, compassionate, devoting. I mean, there's such intense duel around that.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think, uh, you know, it's tough because I can't talk to him about this right now because he's very like aware of what's happening, but he has some amnesia still and he's. He's not fully remembering everything.

• 22:18Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  So it's hard to have a conversation about his inner feelings with him fully being able to express it. He can express, but not fully at the deepest level, I think, yet still.

• 22:31Speaker 00

  So I don't think I could actually have the conversation with him to ask him, you know, what were was going on with you. You know, I think it was just a lot of like, he wasn't, you know, he got married when he was eighteen because my mom was pregnant with my older brother. They're in college, so he finished college while having two jobs to pay for the first baby, then they had three more kids in ten years. And I think he was probably just doing stuff he didn't love and was probably like not happy, completely fulfilled. But stayed together because they wanted to take care of the kids.

• 23:00Jonathan Fields?

  Right, yeah.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  So I think there was like, once the kids were off to college. And my older siblings were off to college and like I was thirteen, I was like the only one left in high school and I was gone to a private school. He had like all this freedom and flexibility and he just like started really, you know.

• 23:16Jonathan Fields?

  Start to reclaim his life.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, his identity, his life, like his happiness and. He was probably going through his own demons for the first, you know, twelve years of my life, which is like.

• 23:24Jonathan Fields?

  So then and then flash forward, it's like at the time where you start to. Really need him on a different level, this horrible thing happens. And he's he's obviously for the no fault of his, I mean, but um, but he's not there on like at the at your moment of greatest need.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:41Jonathan Fields?

  He just can't give you what you need.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Right, right. And he was like my, you know, again, he was there for me and my friend, my dad, my mentor, everything, so.

• 23:51Jonathan Fields?

  So um, so you keep this inside for a long time again.

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:55Jonathan Fields?

  And but the rage is like, like it's like, you know, there's a little bit of a valve like that blows off a little bit of that when you talk to your sociological profession business. Like the valve shuts down and starts to build again.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, I think like each year as I grew older in my twenties, I was very calm, I I became more mindful of. Who I was in the world and and everything. And I would say that I was not like an angry person by any means or aggressive. I was very loving, but I would still react and like get defensive and.

• 24:31Speaker 00

  Threaten, if someone was threatening me, it's like I would threaten back with the same type of fear or whatever, as opposed to coming from a place of let's resolve this lovingly.

• 24:40Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  And communicate like human beings, you know what I mean?

• 24:43Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, which is so interesting for me, because I mean, like, knowing you pretty well, I also know, like, yeah, there's, you look at your physical presence, and again, like, you make certain assumptions about a guy like you, and, um, but you have like this insane, you know, like nurturing, like loving, like caretaking, you know, like mothering side, like to the world, um, which I think a lot of people would really be caught by surprise, but it's such a part of the fiber of who you are.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 25:14Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, it's just, again, there's like these just crazy dualities playing out in your life all over the place.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I, you know, again, I think it's the experiences I went through, again, I felt like my father, my parents, my siblings loved me, but I didn't feel loved. So I knew they loved me, and my interpretation of it was that I wasn't being loved, that I didn't feel it.

• 25:38Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Whether it was happening or not, that was my interpretation. Now, maybe it was just because of the instances that happened, the rape, some other instances that occurred, just my brother going to prison when I was eight, just feeling like I didn't have any friends until I was 13, you know, I just didn't feel like I was accepted or loved. And so I think, you know, it really made me want to love everyone so that they, I could feel that.

• 26:03Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 00

  It really made me want to be, you know, nurturing and compassionate towards everyone so that I could experience what that felt like as a kid. And so I think that's kind of like how it's developed for me.

• 26:14Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I mean, but, and in the same time, it's like you have, it's like you had two states, rage and adoration.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was a really confused kid, and I remember, you know, I, I don't, I don't think I've told this to anyone, I think my parents knew this, but when I was in elementary school, I would often tell the, the teacher or the principal, like when I would get in trouble, or when I just, or something was happening, I would often say, I remember, and I can't believe, I can't believe I actually said this a lot, but I remember I would say that I wish I were dead, or I want to kill myself. And I think I would just say it so nonchalantly that... I don't know why I would say that. And I don't know if other kids ever said that, but I would just be like, I wish I were dead. I wish I would like.

• 26:59Jonathan Fields?

  I mean, I think a lot of middle schoolers say that about other people.

• 27:02Speaker 00

  Right, right. I wish they were dead. I wish you would die or whatever.

• 27:05Jonathan Fields?

  Right. But I mean, but the fact that you were saying, actually, I mean, like, who am I? I'm not a psychologist.

• 27:10Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 27:11Jonathan Fields?

  But to me, it actually makes perfect sense because it's like, oh, wait a minute, here's somebody now who doesn't love me. Like, what can I say? What can I throw out there?

• 27:20Speaker 00

  To get attention.

• 27:21Jonathan Fields?

  To change the emotion so that all of a sudden they want to take care of me.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Right, exactly.

• 27:25Jonathan Fields?

  So like, they're not, you know, they're not angry at me anymore, but they're like, they, how can I get them to love me?

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Of course, so I can, you know. And, you know, looking back, I see what I was creating for myself. But, um, yeah. And I don't know if, again, if it all stemmed from this one experience or if it was a multiple of experiences. I'm assuming it's.

• 27:44Jonathan Fields?

  Who knows? We're a compilation of like all those things, but you had some big moments. Including a big one that you recalled so vividly when you were five. So, so you get to a point pretty recently in your life,

• 27:56Jonathan Fields?

  where you start processing this and it's like, what happens that makes you hit a tipping point where it's like, this has to, I need to move through this?

• 28:04Speaker 00

  It's interesting. I never thought I would share this with anyone, ever, or open up. Maybe like if I was like, you know, my wife, I would like talk about it. But I didn't really like think about it that much. And I was just like, you know, it's not that big a deal. It happened when I was five. There's nothing I can do about it. And it's over. Like, I can either be upset about it or I can, you know, create something amazing in the world and have an awesome life. So I was like, why talk about it? Why even bring it up? It's not going to do me any good. I went to this, about six months ago, I went to this leadership workshop for five days in Los Angeles. And we were talking a lot about emotional intelligence and really understanding ourselves and why we react to certain things in the world, why we create certain things in the world,

• 28:46Speaker 00

  why, you know, what holds us back from like getting what we want in relationships, with our career, with our goals? Like, what are the things that are holding us back, keeping us from living the most epic life that we can live? And I remember there was like, a moment where people were just sharing about different things that they went through in their life. And the workshop facilitator was like, you know, here's an opportunity. If anyone wants to share, like, here's the open floor. And I'm extremely grateful for the space that everyone else created before me in this like thirty to sixty minute moment of like sharing because some people really were so courageous and opened

• 29:31Speaker 00

  up and shared in front of a group of about fifty of us about some things that happened to them. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, this is, you know, unbelievable. And I remember thinking, is there anything that I could share that is holding me back? I was like, you know, my ego's like, you know, I'm pretty good, you know, my ego is like, you're doing great things, you're crushing it, you're getting what you want, you're making the money, you're achieving your, you know, financially athletic goals. I was like, I think I'm pretty good. I don't know if I need to share anything. There's nothing like crazy that's happened to me like some of these stories were unbelievable. And then I was just like trying to, I was like, okay, I really want to dive into this and make sure I get the most out of this workshop. So let's just think about it. So I was

• 30:13Speaker 00

  thinking about my brother going to prison. I was like, I've already talked about that so much, like I'm not, it doesn't hurt me or affect me anymore. I was like, my parents getting divorced, no, you know, I've gone through that. And so I was just trying to like go through my head all the things that happened. And then Everything but Everything, everything but that. And then that kind of pops up. I was like, what about this thing when I was five that I've already dealt with? And my heart started pounding when I was thinking about it. I just imagine myself in front of the room speaking about it and my heart was pounding. And I was like, uh, I don't think I want to do this, but I know I need to. Right. And so the trainer was like, his name is Chris Lee, he goes, you know, last chance, does anyone want to get up here? And I was like, in my seat, I was like, I do not want to do this.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  This is extremely vulnerable and scary. But I just like something in my body just stepped, stood up and just started walking to the front of the room. And I was like, oh, shit, I'm about to do this. And then I was up there just like,

• 31:11Jonathan Fields?

  How many people in the room?

• 31:12Speaker 00

  It's about fifty people, probably, yeah.

• 31:14Jonathan Fields?

  Did you know them before these five days?

• 31:16Speaker 00

  Didn't know them, no.

• 31:17Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  But I'd known him for, it was probably like the third day.

• 31:19Jonathan Fields?

  Right, so there's like a pretty safe space.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was really building a connection with a lot of people and like, we were going through different exercises and, and experiences together, so it's like, I felt safe enough where if I don't see any of these people ever again, awesome. If I do, okay.

• 31:35Jonathan Fields?

  Right.

• 31:36Speaker 00

  But I remember being very nervous and I stood up there very calmly, walked through the entire experience, similar to the way I walked through with you in the beginning of this interview. And I was calm, I was not crying, I was just like talking. I remember I couldn't look anyone in the face, I was just kind of looking down.

• 31:56Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  Impressed probably in like a shameful, a shameful way, looking down and just expressing it. And then I remember the room was just silent, like as I'm talking. And I think everyone was just kind of in shock that this, I guess, big man was talking about being sexually abused and raped as a five-year-old boy by another man. And I sat down back in my seat and there was two women on either side of me. And I remember sitting down and just like bawling and crying, probably harder than I've ever cried in my life.

• 32:31Jonathan Fields?

  Hmm.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  And just letting it out, just really letting it out. Like I was a kid that just like, you know, fell off the swing or something, but just bawling, crying. I just could not control my emotions. I could not hold it in. I couldn't act tough. I couldn't act like this big guy. I was just so, I was just ejecting this emotion. And thankfully, like I've so, I don't remember who was sitting next to me, but these two women were so loving and just hugging onto me and like crying with me, you know, having this moment with me where I was like so shameful for what I had just said. I felt so-

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Like low of myself and shameful and guilty and I was just like, no one in this room is gonna look at me the same ever again. They're all gonna judge me. They're all going to, you know, think about weird things about me. They're gonna look down at me. I just had all these thoughts like bubbling up. And so I was crying with these women in my arms. They ended up taking a break right then. So I go out, I go out of the, the, the conference room, out of the, the, the building and just like, I need some air. So I'm going outside, I'm like bawling outside and like putting my head against the wall. Like I just didn't want anyone to look at me, you know, it's just really shameful. And I was just like, I don't know if I can go back in this room. Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  It's like what's gonna happen. I was like, I don't know if I can go back in this room. And I am just so blessed and grateful that I had this opportunity because what happened next was one of the most amazing healing moments for me. These men in the room came out to me and like, just looked me in the eyes and told me that I was their hero. And it was so moving for these other grown men who are older than me to express their feelings towards me about like, I guess my courage. They were like, you are so courageous. This is, you know, you know, just, I'm so sorry this happened, but this is amazing

• 34:37Speaker 00

  that you're stepping up and, and sharing this and allowing yourself to experience it. And you notice man after man came up to me and embraced me and hugged me. And again, that it was because it was a man and like the whole experience, I think it was just, it was just really healing for me to have other men be like, you know, thank you for what you're doing and for what you're creating and how loving you are towards women and towards other people. And um. Yeah. And you're no less a man. Yeah. Because of this. No one looked down on me. Yeah. And I thought everyone would. Right. And it was, again, it was, it was a struggle to go back in there, but there was like, I had

• 35:17Speaker 00

  all this support to like come back in. And I realized at the end of the day, that my story, my experience, that people have experienced.

• 35:28Speaker 00

  Just as much, if not more, in their own way. And it's not like I have this unique story that's worse than other people or better than other people. It's just my experience. And another guy came up to me and was like, I was sexually abused as well and no one knows about it. And thank you for creating the space for me to be able to tell you. And we got to have this connection and this bond and talk about it. And other men started opening up and sharing about things that happened to them. And again, some things were extremely traumatic and like, holy crap, this is unbelievable. And other things were, you know, I'd say less traumatic, but still very emotionally stressful for them in their own way.

• 36:09Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  And um, so I remember just, it was like, that was really the first step for me. It was kind of like sharing it to a group of people.

• 36:21Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, in a really safe container.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  In a safe place.

• 36:23Jonathan Fields?

  And then having them say like, this, it's okay.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:27Jonathan Fields?

  And you're okay.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. And not like, I don't want to be ashamed of this.

• 36:32Jonathan Fields?

  And not only you're okay, but you know, like, what you just did.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:36Jonathan Fields?

  Was astonishing.

• 36:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And again, I think for me, it was a challenge just by being this, you know, larger guy. Whatever stereotype and not supposed to express my emotions and be vulnerable that way. It was a challenge for me because if that's how I've like grown up to think that I'm not supposed to do that. Um, and again, and I really am grateful for the space as well because a lot of women came up to me and were just like opening up and sharing what had happened to them. And just saying how much they trust men now in the world because of what I was able to create for them. And, you know, thanking me for, for opening up and for being vulnerable and, you know,

• 37:21Speaker 00

  that they judged me before because of the way I looked and, you know.

• 37:25Jonathan Fields?

  And we've talked about that. The first time I met you, I judged you big time. You know, like this is like big, you know, like goofy, like doc. And I was like, and I learned like in minutes that I was dead wrong and I was being an idiot. But yeah, I mean, there's. There are certain assumptions that people make about you just because of your physical presence.

• 37:46Speaker 00

  Right, right, right. So these women were like, you know, you literally healed me right now by what you were able to create. And I trust men because of you, like where I haven't trusted men for years because of the way I've been manipulated or this and that. But now seeing what you're able to create and what's, you know, your way of being there, you know, they shifted. And I was just like, it was an honor for me to hear that from these men and women. It was like one of the greatest gifts they could have given me to see that I was able to create that for them.

• 38:14Jonathan Fields?

  So, but now you're in an interesting place, right? Because you came clean one time before. It was like 10 years ago, whatever it was.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  But then no one else knew.

• 38:24Jonathan Fields?

  Right. And then you went like back into the shell. So like, here's this moment again. And it's like, and this is like, okay, you gotta make a decision again.

• 38:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:35Jonathan Fields?

  How are you going to move forward?

• 38:37Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I thought about it and I was just like, okay, have I done the work? Have I let it out? You know, I cried about this now. I've expressed it. I've told people about it in a safe place. And is this, has it left me? Am I, you know, still going to react or be angry or negative or um, hold a grudge? Or, you know, have I forgiven myself and forgiven everyone else?

• 39:10Speaker 00

  And I was just like, you know what? I haven't gone deep enough. I knew that I'd done a great amount of work just in that moment and sharing it and talking with the people who were there about it. Kind of one on one and listening to them and talking to them about my, my stuff. I knew that I'd done a good amount of work. I was like, I was grateful and like patting myself on the back for like going there and getting vulnerable in it. But I remember being like, you know what? My family doesn't know this about me. For some reason, I was just like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be ashamed of this. I want people to know about my life in a non shameful way. And I didn't feel like it would be resolved until all my closest friends and my family just knew.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  Just I just wanted to share the experience. I didn't need to like cry on them or like have them say anything to me. Or have them feel bad for me or tell me it was okay. Yeah, you just want it to be out there. I just wanted to be honest and open about my life. And should be like, here's who I am. I'm an open book. And not try to put on this like image that, you know, nothing happened to me. And so I remember calling my family members one by one. I think I called my mom first. I might have called my sister first because I was kind of scared to tell my mom. My sister was so loving and then afterwards, my sister Heidi, she wrote me this like long email about how, you know, she thought I was so brave and how I was her hero and this and that. And I was just like,

• 40:39Speaker 00

  it felt amazing. It's not, I didn't need that, but it was like, it felt amazing. I just wanted to have her listen to me.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  I called my brother and I remember asking my brother, you know, my brother's like my hero to me. And I remember asking him a question. I'll go. I had some, I had some coaching from a friend of mine, Kavita, who's a relationship coach, actually. And I asked her, I was kind of telling her about this experience and I was like, you know, I want to make sure when I tell people that I tell them in an appropriate way that doesn't make them feel bad or make them feel anything except for like, it could be a safe place for them to listen. And she was like, start off by asking the question, is there anything that I could do in my life that would make you not love me? And I was just like, I didn't understand it, but I was like, okay, I'll ask it. And I asked this to my brother. I was like, is there anything that I could have done in my life or that I could do ever

• 41:29Speaker 00

  in my life in the future that would make you not love me? And he was like, absolutely not. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, and again, my brother went to prison. So I was just like, what else can you do, you know? That, that could be make me not love you. So I was like, okay, he, you know, I created this safe place for him. I was like, I just want to share with you, you know, something that happened to me. And I went through and shared with him and he was like the most amazing human being. Like his response was so loving and nurturing and like. He was like, you know, you're really the one that all of us look up to in the family for what you're creating, like your life, your, your career. Your dreams, like you're our hero. And I was just like so moved by his words.

• 42:15Speaker 00

  And just felt, you know, he started to open up about things that he'd never share with me. And again, I created a space by opening up, being vulnerable for other people to open up and be vulnerable with me. And create this deeper connection and relationship with my family that I've deeper sense of connection than I've ever had in my life. And I've been with them for 30 years, but it was like, I really got to know them. When I started to connect with them on this vulnerable, open level as opposed to just. Hey, what's up, bro? What's up, sister? You know, what are you up to today?

• 42:48Jonathan Fields?

  The normal surface stuff.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  I, it's like, I have this connection with my family now.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  For us to be able to open up in a vulnerable place that I've never, you know, that I've always wanted, but never had. And it's like this deeper bond is like. It's amazing. The connection we have now.

• 43:08Jonathan Fields?

  When, when you talk to your brother, were you curious at all about, um, whether this happened to anybody else in your family?

• 43:15Speaker 00

  I'm curious. I, I still, uh, you know, no one opened up to me about, um, sexual abuse. I remember my sister Heidi was like. I always thought something happened to you. She kind of like sensed it. She was like, I always thought something happened to you. I was like, really? How'd you get to tell us? She's like, I just felt it. She never asked me though. And I don't know, I don't, you know, I have no clue if, if something happened to any of them when they're children. None of them opened up to me about that specifically. They opened up about other things.

• 43:43Speaker 00

  But, uh.

• 43:44Jonathan Fields?

  So, so there's, there's one person that you still, so your sister, your brother?

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I told my other sister too, Catherine, then my mom.

• 43:51Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  I told my mom, and I think she felt like she kind of had a hard day. She was like very emotional and I think she was crying like the rest of the day. On the phone, she was like very loving and sweet and I came to her right away. I was like, listen, mom, I want to tell you something, but I want you to know it's not your fault. Like this is not something you did. So I set the stage. Um, but I kind of walked her through what happened and she was just like, you know, I feel really bad as a mother. It's my job to protect you and to be there for you and I wasn't there for you. I was like, yeah, but I didn't tell you and you didn't know. And you didn't know the babysitter had a son who, you know, he seemed like a normal guy. You know, he didn't know he had this dark side or whatever. I was like, it's okay.

• 44:33Speaker 00

  I was like, cause I had gone through the process of actually forgiving. The guy, you know, went through my process of forgiving him. But the most important person I forgave was myself. Cause I wasn't, I hadn't forgiven myself and that's why I was so defensive and reactive and angry. I was just like upset at myself for 25 years. So I'd forgiven everyone in the process of the experience. And I took responsibility for it. You know, and a lot of people are like, how can you take responsibility when you didn't know what's happening? It's not like I, I take responsibility. I just, I am responsible for the situation. You know, it's a situation that I was in.

• 45:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And I mean, cause I'm sure some people are going to listen to that and they're actually going to recoil to hear you say that. But it's, I mean, I, this is my lens. My lens is not that you're taking responsibility for what somebody did to you when you were five years old. But at this moment in time today, you're taking responsibility for how you choose to now to process it and move forward.

• 45:34Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 45:34Jonathan Fields?

  And that's so it's like, you're taking responsibility from, for the way that you now move through this.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:40Jonathan Fields?

  And interact with the world in this moment.

• 45:42Speaker 00

  Exactly. Because I can either be a victim and have this be an experience that controls me. And holds me back and has me hesitate and be closed off in every relationship moving forward. Or I can use it and say, you know what, what can I learn from this? And how, how can I ensure that I don't create this in my life moving forward? That I don't create, um, negative feelings from people that, you know, people feel safe and that I'm honest and open and always.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  You know, expressing what's on my minds and being, you know, communicating as opposed to manipulating or whatever else may be happening and really allowing other people to make decisions based on my honest communication.

• 46:26Jonathan Fields?

  And also to a certain extent, maybe to a large extent, you know, having this voice in the back of your head that kind of like feels more comfortable that in any given reaction, like in any given experience, whether it's a romantic relationship, friends, business, that you feel more comfortable that your reaction is actually to what's going on in front of you, rather than what's going on, you know, what a dramatic incident a long, long time ago. Like, you know, we can never entirely, can never entirely leave any of that behind, but at least you can, you use the word mindfulness a number of times, you become more mindful and at least you can zoom the lens out more easily and say, wait a minute, and what am I reacting to?

• 47:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, if I'm honest with myself, there's gonna be breakdowns and things that happen that are not fun in the world. People are going to die, as we do. That's not fun. You know, there's probably gonna be some war in my lifetime, and there's probably gonna be some things that happen that I don't want to happen. Either to other people around me, to other, you know, something's gonna happen in the world where this sucks. And I can either choose to allow these instances to control me and have me live in fear, and

• 47:53Speaker 00

  play small in the world and be safe, and live in a little bubble, or I can experience the experiences when they happen, and move forward with courage, vulnerability, compassion, openness.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  And love and be, you know, and create the change that I want to change for myself as kind of, you know, lame as that sounds, but really show people what it, what it's going to take to step up in a powerful way. When breakdowns happen or when things that seem horrible happen and how to be responsible for every situation.

• 48:28Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  So I'm choosing moving forward, you know, does that mean I'm, I'm gonna never be reactive or never be, you know, guarded or defensive or angry or not forgive certain things? That's probably gonna happen at some point, but I feel like I'm at a place where I've done so much work on myself and I've communicated clearly with a lot of people with where I'm at. I've got the support to support me when a breakdown happens that I can quickly shift out of it. You know, there's an instance I told you about this morning where I'm like, years ago, this would have controlled me. This would have like taken over my, my body, my mind, and I would feel like I would have to fix the problem.

• 49:11Speaker 00

  Fix it and solve it and be there and like give all of my heart and my emotion until I'm like exhausted because I take all the responsibility and blame and I feel guilty and all these things. But I don't feel that way anymore. Like I'm, I'm able to like go through the process, experience it, communicate it clearly with people and then move forward and stick to my truth. I think that's been a valuable lesson going through this process of opening up and sharing with people.

• 49:41Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. It was interesting that, and tell me if this is, I'm not gonna overshare here, I hope, but you know, like, so you were sharing this with me this morning as we're hanging out and we're not gonna go into, you know, like what the circumstances, but you also came to me because you're like, I, I actually feel okay about this.

• 49:58Speaker 00

  Yes. Should I feel bad?

• 50:00Jonathan Fields?

  Right. You know, so there's, it's so interesting that, you know.

• 50:03Speaker 00

  Well, that was my default to feel bad.

• 50:05Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, right. And so, but I think what's great is that, you know, you have now some multiple friends who you, you trust with pretty much anything you can come to and say, hey, listen, like, I, I've done a lot of work, like, and I'm, I'm reacting differently than I ever would have, you know? Is that okay? Because you're, there's still that, like, there's still the nugget of a voice in your head, you know? And I think it's so important for people to have that small group of people around them so that they kind of like, because we constantly need sort of, you know, like, we need other people sometimes to, to pull us out of that abyss that still can be like a bit of a default mode.

• 50:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, my automatic.

• 50:42Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  It's gonna drop me back into my automatic.

• 50:44Jonathan Fields?

  But it was awesome to see that you like when you, when you came to me that you had already kind of come to the place where like, I'm okay with this. I just want to make sure that like I'm.

• 50:51Speaker 00

  But I shouldn't feel bad.

• 50:52Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And I'm like, no, it's all, it's good. You know, like you're, it's awesome. It's awesome to see you. But um, you know, and I, I think one of the, um, one of the big powerful things, you know, for me, just moving through this conversation with you and having other conversations over the years and the last few months, especially is just, you know, something that Brene Brown kind of brought to the public eye in a huge way last year, which is that um, we've been, we were taught to assume that vulnerability is weakness. And in fact, you know, more often than not, um, if not close to always, vulnerability is a source of, of strength.

• 51:32Jonathan Fields?

  Um, and that, and not only strength for you, but strength for those around you, because when they see you live it, you model it and you allow other people to step into theirs.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:42Jonathan Fields?

  Um, and, and connect with something deeper in themselves. Like you're, you know, it's like if your brother and your family, they're like, you, you don't know this, but you're our hero. So when you model that, you know, like you, it's like you're, you're opening up like the, the world for them to step into on a high level. And then look what happens and you know, with your first, you know, 30 years later.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:01Jonathan Fields?

  There's like a new relationship there.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, you know, Brene Brown is obviously like an inspiration. Shawn Stevenson, I heard him give a talk about vulnerability and how to like, he gave a presentation about how to leave people breathless. And he's been on the podcast and talking about vulnerability. I remember just being so inspired by his stories of vulnerability for his life. And thinking, you know, I don't have to portray this big, strong, got it all figured out all the time. Like, I can open up and, and actually by being vulnerable, it's gonna make me stronger, you know, it's gonna make me strong and connect with people on a deeper level that's gonna strengthen our relationship, whether people know me personally or just know me from afar.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  And it's been powerful. It's been, I feel stronger than ever now, and I feel humbler than ever now, great, you know, so grateful. I feel calmer. I feel at peace. I feel like I can, I just feel really. Centered and grounded and not frustrated or confused. And it feels amazing.

• 53:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I've I've sensed that about you. There's been a huge shift um over the last year, really, not even last year, but last couple of months.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And just since I've been doing all the work, yeah.

• 53:24Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  And the more people I talk to about it. You know, one on one, I've only been sharing it one on one ever since this experience with my friend, my family, my friends. I started telling you and a few other close friends of ours. And it wasn't again to like make people feel bad about me or to make them feel responsible. But it was really just to like, hey, this who I am. I want you to understand a deeper level of me. And kind of this is what I'm committed to moving forward. Here's what you can expect from me moving forward now that you know this about me. And it's been like, you know, the first couple of times I talked about it with my family, I was scared and like intimidated and nervous. And now it's become easier and easier to share.

• 54:06Speaker 00

  And it's not a challenge to say what had happened. It's not a challenge.

• 54:11Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  And I think my final, you know, I really wanted, sorry, go ahead.

• 54:16Jonathan Fields?

  Nah, I was just gonna say, I mean, one of the things that struck me.

• 54:21Jonathan Fields?

  Cause I I've now heard you share this with me twice.

• 54:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:24Jonathan Fields?

  You know, and the first time I was struck by how almost clinical it was, but there was still emotion there. And sitting here now, it's probably a couple of months later.

• 54:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:32Jonathan Fields?

  Um, you seem more just, it's weird to say at ease with it.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  I feel it, yeah.

• 54:38Jonathan Fields?

  It it seems like that. So I guess, and maybe this is where you were leading also. It's like now the leap to putting this out to everybody. What's that about?

• 54:46Speaker 00

  You know, I had this, you know.

• 54:50Speaker 00

  I wasn't sure if I wanted to kind of like openly, publicly talk about this for a couple of reasons. Like, what if people thought something about me? What if they thought I was for the wrong reasons or, you know, my ego came up? What if they're gonna judge me, this and that? What if people are gonna, you know, not gonna be responsive to the stuff I was putting on the future afterwards? What if they would? You know, whatever. What if my business was gonna suffer? What if people didn't wanna, you know, bring me to speak anymore? Things like that, my conversation was coming up.

• 55:23Speaker 00

  And I really didn't want to do it if it was gonna put people off in a negative way. Like, I just wanted to make, I wanted to come from a place of, one, being completely vulnerable and open to the world about who I am. And two, creating a safe place for other people who've been sexually abused in any way to, and if they haven't experienced it or dealt with, like, going through the process of understanding it yet, that's, I guess, kind of gives some insights on how they could, or that it was okay to, and it's a safe place to do that. And I'm not saying you need to, like, let me know, or leave a comment on the blog, or anything crazy like that.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  If you like to, that's fine, but more than like, it's okay if you've gone through this experience in any way. Any type of sexual abuse that you're not a bad person, that you don't have to, like, feel guilty, that you don't, you can forgive yourself, and you can forgive the other person. Because, you know, not being in a place for forgiving really made me a prisoner. I was a prisoner to these negative emotions for 25 years, because I was holding on to this resentment about myself and this other person. And I would not forgive myself and this other person.

• 56:43Speaker 00

  And that's what caused a lot of the uncertainty of the anger and resentment and fear, was this, like, feeling of not being able to forgive. And I want everyone out there to know that it's okay to forgive yourself and the other person if this has happened to you. And if it hasn't happened to you, it's okay to forgive people with anything of emotional abuse. Anyone who's done you wrong. Anything, anything, like, if you're holding on to any resentment towards someone, it's not serving you. It's not serving you in stepping into your greatest level of as a human being, and creating the life of your dreams, and the career you want, the type of feelings, the passion you want to have every moment in your life,

• 57:28Speaker 00

  the relationships, it's holding you back from your greatness by holding on to this, like, resentment. So that, I mean, there's like,

• 57:38Jonathan Fields?

  Secrets, vulnerability and forgiveness. Three huge things swirling around that invitation. You know, which is to to step out of the shadows. And again, like you said, that doesn't mean dropping a comment, you know.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  No.

• 57:58Jonathan Fields?

  That means in whatever way is appropriate.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 58:01Jonathan Fields?

  For your life, your condition, where you're at, like the way that you need to do that. Like, how do you move? How do you take that and and start to move through it and and like bring it out of the shadow? And the most appropriate way for you.

• 58:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:13Jonathan Fields?

  You know, nobody, we can't tell you what that is.

• 58:15Speaker 00

  And that can literally, that doesn't mean you have to tell anyone also. That can literally be writing a letter to yourself. And then, you know, lighting a fire and burning it. And just you going through the process of you experiencing the process of forgiveness and letting something go.

• 58:35Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, so I mean, let's go a little bit more into that.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 58:38Jonathan Fields?

  Because the notion of forgiving somebody who has done something horrible to you. It's not an easy thing.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  Not easy at all. And especially what if someone's killed someone? What if someone, you know, did, there's horrible things that have been done. And I get it, it's not easy. And what if someone killed your whole family? You know, there's like, I've heard experiences of people's entire families being killed by drunk drivers. How do you forgive someone who's dead that killed your entire family? Like, this is not easy. And I'm not saying I'm, you know, an expert in this.

• 59:12Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I don't have, I wish I had answered.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  And I'm not saying that you need to forgive people or you don't need to. I'm not telling you what to do. What I'm saying is it's going to be really hard for you to step into your greatness and love fully and be committed to people and have an amazing life without, you know, if you don't forgive yourself and someone else.

• 59:36Speaker 00

  It's gonna be like you're gonna be a prisoner in your negative emotions. And if that's the life you choose to live, then I'm not saying that's bad. Not saying that's wrong. I'm just saying that's not stepping into your highest potential as a human being.

• 59:49Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I'm seeing as a future podcast guest, some psychotherapist who's an expert in forgiveness.

• 59:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 59:56Jonathan Fields?

  How do you actually do it?

• 59:57Speaker 00

  I would, yeah, I would love to know more. I mean, I just know what worked for me. The process I went through was sharing it with a group of people, then one by one with everyone in my, in my immediate life. And then I knew that I wanted to create a space because I do have a, a platform and a podcast. I knew I wanted to, I was asking you, I was asking a lot of people, I was like, do you think I should share this publicly? Because I really don't want to if it's gonna come across in the wrong way.

• 1:00:24Jonathan Fields?

  Right, like opportunistic.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I really don't want to do this if it's gonna like, if people, it's gonna hurt people as opposed to support people. And a lot of people were like, I think it'd be an amazing thing for you to do. And so I just said, you know what, Jonathan, I'd love for you to, you know, facilitate this for me so I don't just ramble about an experience.

• 1:00:46Jonathan Fields?

  No, I mean, and I, and so much love to you for just having the trust in me, the faith in me to just have that conversation with you publicly. It's a, I know it hasn't, you know, you've been struggling with this for a while. And, and I can certainly understand, you know, especially out there in the world that we live in that,

• 1:01:05Jonathan Fields?

  people will process this through whatever filter their life brings to listening.

• 1:01:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Jonathan Fields?

  And, and no matter how much you try and come from a loving place with this, no matter how much you try and do this in the name of allowing people to rise. There will be people who look and be like, oh, this is, it's opportunistic, he's trying to build audience and.

• 1:01:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:01:27Jonathan Fields?

  And just in a sense, you gotta, you know, let that go too. And just know like, you know what? My intention is, I know my heart, like deep down that I'm doing this, this is right action.

• 1:01:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Jonathan Fields?

  This is right action.

• 1:01:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:40Jonathan Fields?

  I'm doing this for the right reasons and I feel it in my heart and. That doesn't mean that it won't be haters, but that like knowing it comes from that place allows you to be much more okay when and if that does happen. And the the truth is like the vast majority of people will will rally, not only to support you, but to support the conversation and to grow the conversation and then maybe allow other people to step into their own journeys on a different level.

• 1:02:11Speaker 00

  I feel like it's not being talked about enough with, you know, I feel like a lot of people who haven't shared their experience. And because they haven't shared it, it's not on the forefront of people's minds. And it's not, people think it's okay to do to like little kids. And it's just not okay. And so I want to step up and share my experience to let people know that it's not okay. And to make sure that you like, do talk to your kids or whatever and let them know like, hey, if this ever comes up for you, give them some guidance, you know, I'm not a parent. So I can't tell you what to do. But let people be aware of it. Have conversations with your kids like on a weekly basis or monthly basis, I would say, and ask him, is there anything that's happened? Or there's anything you'd like to talk about that you

• 1:02:56Speaker 00

  feel ashamed of or anything? Create a space for them. And maybe that means you need to be vulnerable as a parent first, or and really open up about you. And maybe there's a right time and place. And, you know, I'm just throwing out ideas. But yeah, I just want to be having a conversation. And, you know, in some sense, this is like a selfish thing for me to really like, continue to heal. And I feel like I'm heal like I've gone through the process and I've, I've, I've let it go. And I've forgiven. But like you said, like, I don't know, will this ever go away? Like, if I stop talking about it, is it going to go away?

• 1:03:31Jonathan Fields?

  Right. I don't know. But I mean, you know,

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  And me expressing it makes me feel like stronger.

• 1:03:39Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah. And I guess to a certain extent, you know, the, the broader you go with it, the further you step out of the shadow and into the light.

• 1:03:48Speaker 00

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 1:03:49Jonathan Fields?

  So, yeah, as a parent, you know, obviously, I I hope that, you know, I would always create space for my kid to feel okay coming to me, coming to my wife with whatever, whether it's bad grades or like a spat in school to,

• 1:04:09Jonathan Fields?

  you know, God willing, nothing ever major happens. But, you know, as a parent, you're always, I'm not the only parent who I'm sure is listening to this. I'm sure there are zillions. You're one of your biggest hopes as a parent is always that you create enough, a space of safety and love so that you would hope that your kid would come to you with

• 1:04:27Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:04:28Jonathan Fields?

  any kind of challenges, you know, that's always one of the, it's one of the concerns that you have as a parent is that you don't want secrets to build up because you feel like your kid can't trust you or something.

• 1:04:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I would definitely say, you know, whether you're a parent who's experienced sexual abuse or rape yourself, you know, there's, we were trying to find statistics online before and we still don't know what it is, but I know there's like a number of people, it seems like one in every six or seven of people have had some type of sexual abuse in their life, whether it's a small or rape.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  But I think, you know, if you have experienced that in any way, I just want you guys to know that, like, you are such an amazing, you're amazing human beings that I love you so much and that it's okay. Like whatever you've experienced, it's okay. It's not the end of the world. And you can still create amazing relationships and an amazing life for yourself, even though you've experienced that. And I just want everyone to know that if they've ever experienced that or if anyone in their family has experienced that, to just give them a safe place to feel loved and that a safe place to talk about it.

• 1:05:42Speaker 00

  For me, that's what I needed, was a safe place to talk about it without feeling ashamed, even though I still felt ashamed. And just know that, you know, some people may not want to talk about it, but.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  I think it's holding them back if they're not talking about it and they're still, you know, guarded or defensive or something's holding them back in their life. So just continue to create a safe place until they are open to talking about it.

• 1:06:08Jonathan Fields?

  Yeah, I think it's probably a great place for us to come full circle and wrap up also. It's been, like I said, it's been, um, it's been an honor. I appreciate you having the faith in me to just have this conversation in a comfortable way and, uh, and, um, and you're my hero for, uh, you know, not for going through what you went through, but just for, um, for your decision to move through it.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  Hmm. Well, I acknowledge you for being an amazing friend, for again, allowing me to have a safe place. You're one of the first people I thought of and talked to when I wanted to have this podcast and this episode. So what you're creating in the world has created a safe place in my heart to just share freely with. So I acknowledge you for the huge gift you are to this world and what you continue to do with all of your projects. So thank you.

• 1:06:59Jonathan Fields?

  Thanks, man.