551 How Boredom Leads to Brilliance with Manoush Zomorodi

"Being productive is working smarter, not harder." - Manoush Zomorodi If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/551 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 551 with Manoush Zomorodi.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  "The cure for boredom is curiosity. There is no cure for curiosity." It's a quote by Ellen Parr. And I'm super excited about our guest today. Her name is Manoush Zomorodi, and she is the host and managing editor of Note2Self, the tech show about being human from WNYC Studios. And every week on her podcast, Manoush searches for answers to life's digital quandaries through experiments and conversations with listeners and experts. In 2017, Manoush and Note2Self launched The Privacy Paradox, which is a five-part plan to help people take back control over their digital identity. Tens of thousands

• 1:15Lewis Howes?

  of listeners have completed the product so far, which Fast Company calls Manoush's "challenge to us to stick up for our internet rights." She's won numerous awards for her work, and she is also the author of the new book, Bored and Brilliant. And I love this topic, and I'm so pumped for us to get into this, because we cover a few key things, including why being bored does something special to our brains and unlocks something magical. Also, how we're confusing productivity with reactivity. The best way to come up with creative solutions to complex problems. Why you wake up in the middle of the night from overthinking. And how to coach your children to use technology in healthy ways.

• 1:58Lewis Howes?

  And I give an example early on in this interview about a friend of mine who's going through a transition, trying to figure out what she wants to do next, in a very successful In past careers, but feels kind of stuck and we're going to tap into how you can do this in your own life as well in the first few minutes. But before we dive in, I want to give a shout out to the fan of the week. This is from Sabrina. Who said, I've just started your podcast and I'm listening to episodes at random. I've made your show a daily part of my routine. I listen every morning, first thing I do. I put your show on the loudspeaker while I drink my coffee in the morning. I've been really inspired by your talks and I'm impressed with your natural ability to listen and react.

• 2:39Lewis Howes?

  And asking questions. I just listened to episode 300 with Jesse Itzler and I just love it. Pushing boundaries. Thanks so much, Sabrina. So Sabrina, thank you so much for being the review and fan of the week. And if you guys want to have a chance to be shout out on the podcast, just go over to your podcast app. And go to the School of Greatness podcast over on iTunes or the podcast app and leave us a review and let us know your thoughts. Thank you guys again so much for all your support and those reviews really help get the message out there.

• 3:12Lewis Howes?

  All right, guys, how boredom leads to brilliance. Let's dive in with the one, the only, Manoush Zomorodi.

• 3:22Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness podcast. We have Manoush Zomorodi in the house. High five. Welcome to LA. Excited that you're here.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  I'm excited to be here.

• 3:31Lewis Howes?

  I can't remember who sent me the book, um, but originally.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  My publicist.

• 3:34Lewis Howes?

  Your publicist probably sent me the book and I never heard of you.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Thanks.

• 3:38Lewis Howes?

  And I remember I was.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  I heard of you, Lewis.

• 3:40Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  That was good.

• 3:41Lewis Howes?

  I never heard of you, but I, I saw the title of it and I sent it to Christine. She's always the second one to say yes or no. And she was like, at least like, let's get the book and check it out. So we got, I think a couple of books.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:53Lewis Howes?

  And I looked at it and I was like, actually, this is a really important topic. That initially I was like, uh, is this going to be interesting? My initial thought.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Because it had the word boredom in it.

• 4:03Lewis Howes?

  Well, it was just like boredom brilliant, but actually when I saw it, I was like, I get it instantly because, and I was just having a conversation with a friend of mine. A couple of days ago, her name's Ariana. So Ariana, if you're listening, she's a former world record holder for, uh, in swimming and she won a gold medal, uh, with the USA swimming team. Years ago, and she was in a, kind of a stage in her life where she's like, I have all these options and all these things and I'm whiteboarding my life right now and these things I want to do. But nothing feels like right. And I said to her, I go, when was the last time you just took a break?

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:37Lewis Howes?

  Like, you're so in your head, you're so analytical right now of the action steps and the option and what looks good on paper and what'll look good for your resume and this and that. I was like, go take three days where you don't have your phone and just dream and just like veg out, take hikes, work out and allow yourself to dream. For me, every time I do that, the most powerful ideas open up for me about where I'm supposed to be heading.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Do you do that regularly?

• 5:03Lewis Howes?

  I do it regularly in shorter spurts. A year and a half ago, remember it was two years ago, before this first book came out, I went to Hawaii. I went to the island of Hawaii for four days and I left my team said, you need to leave your phone here. I was like, I'm gonna take it with me, leave it in the hotel. They're like, no, you should leave it here. And I was like,

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Did you really?

• 5:24Lewis Howes?

  I left my phone here, no computer, no phone, no electronics. Right when I got off the plane, it was terrifying. Right when I got off the plane,

• 5:32Speaker 01

  You're like, where do I go?

• 5:34Lewis Howes?

  I didn't know where to go. I forgot which uh,

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Oh my God, I lost that little piece of paper that they gave me.

• 5:39Lewis Howes?

  I forgot the car rental space. I was like asking all the car rental places, like, do I have a reservation here? Do I have a reservation here? I had to ask for instructions, uh,

• 5:47Speaker 01

  That's kind of hilarious.

• 5:48Lewis Howes?

  At uh, at gas stations, I had to stop to get directions, like old school. But it was the most beautiful thing ever. I remember just sitting in the ocean, looking up and realizing like, I'm not about to go back to my phone in 10 minutes or like worried I could just be. And it was unbelievable, the amount of peace and calm I had after those four days. So, um, a long introduction of saying, I'm super excited that this message is out because I think it's something we all need to focus on is being bored so we can have these brilliant ideas come to us.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  I think it's really interesting also that like, first of all, that wouldn't have been the case just a decade ago. That somebody would have had to been like, leave this piece of metal behind in another state so that you can accomplish what you need to get done in your life. That's insane. Also, it's super weird to me that like, and this is what I've been sort of talking about is that we have to talk about things that like, as a parent, I'm finding this especially, like talk about things that we used to just take for granted as human beings, like eye contact, boredom, all these things that are now like sort of being,

• 6:52Speaker 01

  Taken out of our lives, but we're realizing, oh, no, no, wait. Actually, I, we're having wonderful eye contact right now. We are being bored. Brings us actually what I now understand scientifically does something very special in our brains. And because we have so many alternative ways of reaching out into the world because of our gadgets, because of information, which are all wonderful, but we now need to remember some of the more human stuff that has been around for millennia that actually we want to hold on to.

• 7:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. So what's the science behind this then?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:23Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Okay. So this all started because I had my own sort of freak out. Several years ago where I was sitting down, I'm a podcast host and I was like, okay, the podcast is doing well, but I really want to kill it and type A person that I am.

• 7:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Exactly. Me and Ariana.

• 7:41Lewis Howes?

  Dominate.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Exactly. Sat down and got to figure this out. And like, there was kind of nothing there. And for me, it was different than writer's block because I've had that before where you're like, okay, I'm waiting for the muse. I can feel it's all bubbling up. I just can't get it out. It wasn't like that. It was like there was sand in my head. And so it made me think back like, well, when was the last time I had like really good ideas? And it was such a cliche, Louis. It was like, oh, it was when I was staring out the window in a car ride or I'd wait in line for coffee and like just sort of let my mind go where it was. And I was like, oh, man, now every single spare moment that I have in my day, what is it filled with? I look at my phone. I check the headlines. I tweet. I tell my husband that I'm like surviving.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  Is he surviving? Like it's a constant call and return, call and return that's going on with me and the world instead of me just being in the world, you know, while all these little moments in my day. And so it made me think like, well, what happens in our brains when we get bored? Or maybe more importantly, what if we never get bored ever again? Like, would that be a bad thing? We think of boredom as being. Great. You're not bored? That's awesome, but maybe not. So I went down this rabbit hole to understand what happens with boredom. And it turns out that when you get bored, you ignite a network in your brain called the default mode. So this is if you're folding the laundry, or you're just lying on the couch, or you know, you're doing something that doesn't require your brain to specifically think how it is physically moving, or you're not focused

• 9:10Speaker 01

  on something. So the default mode activates, and that is actually where you do your most original thinking. You do problem solving, and you do something that I had never heard of called autobiographical planning. This is when you look back at your life, you take note of the highs and the lows, you build a personal narrative, your story. And then you look forward, you do something that psychologists call perspective bias. You look into the future, you figure out your goals, like your friend Ariana needed to do. And then you figure out the steps that you need to take to actually reach those goals. So like, super important stuff that you cannot be doing if you can't tap that brain power if you're constantly tapping your screens.

• 9:49Lewis Howes?

  Constantly tapping your screens. But what about also constantly in motion with something? If you're just constantly busy, are you able to do that as well? Even if you're not on your screen, you're like running around doing this, this, this?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  No, that's that requires active focus, right? It has to be something that comes, you know, that you, I think jogging is a great example, one foot and the other.

• 10:07Lewis Howes?

  I get my best ideas when I'm running.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Do you? Do you listen to podcasts or music? Or do you?

• 10:11Lewis Howes?

  I can, I both. Or sometimes I do nothing. Usually, usually if I'm on the treadmill, I'll listen to a podcast, and I feel like I gotta run forever.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:20Lewis Howes?

  But if I'm outside, I never listen to anything. And I feel like I want to run back fast almost every time, because I have an idea that I want to go execute on. And I get great ideas when I'm running.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  I mean, because of this research, I changed what I listen to when I run. I used to always like, think of it as like, perfect time to listen to other people's podcasts. And, you know, look, listen to podcasts, obviously, you and I are, you know, fans of podcasts.

• 10:43Lewis Howes?

  Keep listening to my podcasts when you work out.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  But now, when I jog, I don't listen to anything. And the first 10 minutes are the worst. Oh, my God. It's like

• 10:50Lewis Howes?

  Because it's exhausting, it's hard, it's challenging, you're like

• 10:53Speaker 01

  And my brain can't settle down, and my legs hurt, and I keep thinking, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks. And then suddenly, around like, a mile and a half, something clicks over for me, where I start to forget that I'm running, and I I get a little obsessive about something I'm thinking about and I start to work at it and like chip away at it and that is usually when the good stuff comes. I have to wait for it though. And I think that's the key here is like you're, our gadgets can't give us more minutes in the day. We still need to have the patience to get to the great ideas because otherwise we're just having a lot of mediocre ones that we're like posting and tweeting and Instagramming about.

• 11:29Lewis Howes?

  That's it. So what's your practice now? Do you set aside time to be bored every day? Or to have, a friend of mine calls this strategic [BLEEP] around.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 11:39Lewis Howes?

  He calls, yeah, exactly. Beeping that out. Strategic messing around where he's like, my greatest idea. He told me this about eight years ago. He goes, so many people aren't taking time strategically to mess around, to mess off, to goof off.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  So with him on that.

• 11:52Lewis Howes?

  They're so in action or constantly creating, creating, creating that they're not allowing themselves to dream or see, is this working? Is this not working for me? Am I recovering? You know, things like that.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  That's a really, I mean.

• 12:03Lewis Howes?

  Gets his best ideas when he does that. He'll just spend like three hours where he's like, we're just gonna goof off right now.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:08Lewis Howes?

  We're just gonna relax, kind of like play around, do whatever we want to do and then things open up.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  And I think, so for me personally, I find it extremely hard, which is why it's so hard. I wrote a book about it. Yeah. I have two kids. I have, they're 10 and seven.

• 12:22Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  And I have a reporter, politics reporter husband who's, you know.

• 12:26Lewis Howes?

  And you live in New York City.

• 12:27Speaker 01

  And I live in New York City. And like all of it, it's super, super hard. But I think for me, again, as a type A person, to understand that actually that goofing off stuff or the spacing out, or when you think you're being kind of lazy, but actually your brain is doing something. That is actually what being productive truly is. It is working smarter, not harder. And I think that's what we all aspire to, right? Like, why be running around in a million different places at once? When like, if you just give yourself some time to. Refresh, rethink, renew what you're, what you're all about. And then that can be, that can set you on a path that is so much more clear than, than I think, you know, for me,

• 13:07Speaker 01

  it's like, I think we're confusing productivity with reactivity. Like, we think that because we have the opportunity constantly to let our, you know, partner, romantic partner, or our coworkers, or, you know, let's shoot a slack, like, you guys, okay? Like, we think that that's being productive and, and reactive and, and present. But actually, I think it's taking us away from the, the harder, deeper work that we need to do.

• 13:32Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. What do we need to do?

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Well, this is where, and I've been saying this on the road, because I have a lot of, I've been on book tours, you are about to embark on, and, um, lots of young people in the audience. And I kinda need, I look them in the eye. I'm like, here's the thing. Our country right now is facing economic disparity, racial division, environmental problems. These are not easy fixes. So, like, updating your, you know, feeds constantly isn't going to solve the problem. It makes me say that, like, collectively, I think what we need to do is rethink how we are using technology right now, making sure that when we do pick it up, it's not because it's a physical reflex, but because it's improving our lives, turning them back into the tools that they are meant to be, as, as

• 14:17Speaker 01

  opposed to the taskmasters that they have really become. Because, God, do we have some problems we need to solve? And boy, do we need some original thinking to solve it. There was a, um, a survey of 1,500 CEOs that IBM did, and they asked them, what is the number one leadership competency that you are looking for in your executives and workers? And it was creativity. I mean, I think that that makes sense. We, the robots are going to be able to do all the other jobs, but they can't be creative. That is where-

• 14:46Lewis Howes?

  Critical thinking, yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Precisely.

• 14:47Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. Wow. And so how's your daily practice now with? This, how do you do it with two kids on the road?

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:55Lewis Howes?

  I mean, obviously, it probably comes in phases where you're like, okay, now it's a good time. And you're, I call it the playoffs where it's like, I'm in playoff mode right now. I'm like gearing up for the playoffs and the championship.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:04Lewis Howes?

  So it's like, you're not gonna have much time to relax.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 15:07Lewis Howes?

  But how do you do this throughout the year? Do you take breaks?

• 15:09Speaker 01

  I'm kinder to myself. I think I say to myself, like, it used to be that I was like, just push through. Keep going. You got this. And I'm like, no, you don't got this. If you need to say to your husband, like, dude, I need two hours off tomorrow and I'm going to lie on the bed and stare at the wall. Seriously, that is what I want to do with my time now.

• 15:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  I mean, it's, it's the dumbest little tweaks, I think, to your behavior that can make a difference. So for me, I used to think of my subway ride home as my chance to respond to all the emails that I didn't get to during the day. Like, perfect productive period. But then I realized, like, I would get home with my kids and it was like, transitioning from being working, quick person, thinking to being like thoughtful, present mother was like not. So now I couldn't do it. I was kind of like, let's get homework done. Come on, come on. Instead of, you know, like, all right, mommy, take a deep breath and like, say hello. So now I think of the subway ride home for me as like spacing out.

• 16:07Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Kind of like, let's digest what happened during the day. Let's think about it. Let's like, let your brain work it out a little bit. And then let's have that moment of transition into another part of your life where you, you know, you're not the same person at home as you are at work. I mean, I think, you know, Facebook wants you to be all the same person in all the places and we're not. We'd have different roles that we play in all of these places.

• 16:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  And so for me, it's about giving myself that transition period, like, like a warm up, I guess it would be, in some ways.

• 16:40Lewis Howes?

  Or stretch, cool down.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, exactly. That's right. And I, I find that when I do give myself that time, there's less waking up in the middle of the night, thinking about something. You're, you know, that, that 4 a.m. like where you just wake up thinking about a problem. And I think it's because for a lot of us, we don't give ourselves time during the day to actually process what has happened in our lives.

• 17:01Lewis Howes?

  So true. You know, a lot of people who listen to my show are constantly asking, how do I find my vision? And how do I find like my purpose? And how do I find these things? And I always tell people like you need to go in nature without your device.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:14Lewis Howes?

  And just be.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:15Lewis Howes?

  Like have a peaceful warrior moment. I don't know if you've read the book or watched.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 17:21Lewis Howes?

  And I so you just need to go and you're like the guy just sits on a car for like a day or whatever.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:26Lewis Howes?

  Just like.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  I totally, I'm with you.

• 17:29Lewis Howes?

  Like you gotta go into nature, allow your mind to relax. Don't just be like responsive like you said, everything.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Have you heard about this new like, I don't think it's new, but like they call it forest bathing in Jap- in Japan.

• 17:42Lewis Howes?

  Sounds amazing. What is it?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Literally, I think.

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  Going into the forest, yeah.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  And letting it bathe you, which is sort of beautiful, right?

• 17:48Lewis Howes?

  When is the last time someone did this? Like, when's the last time someone went camping?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:52Lewis Howes?

  You know, I'm, I love, you know, having a nice bed and things like that, but I will go to the ocean and just lay for like four or five hours and just let the sand heal my mind. You know what I mean?

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally.

• 18:03Lewis Howes?

  And just like swim in the waves for thirty minutes and just goof off.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:06Lewis Howes?

  And for me, it feels so refreshing to just get away from something in Mother Nature and allow it to heal me.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  And I think people are looking for proof and permission that they should be doing that. So I.

• 18:18Lewis Howes?

  So you have the science, right? You have the data. So tell me more about that.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  So this, the book is actually based on an experiment that I did with my listeners in twenty fifteen. So I had this sort of moment where I was like, oh crap. I think that actually my gadgets are the problem. They've, they've helped me be a professional working mother, but I think they also might be like destroying like my potential essentially. Yeah, exactly. So I reached out to my audience and I was like, are you guys like feeling like maybe you wanna rethink your habits here? Like, are you kind of feeling? And they were like, yes. So within forty eight hours, um, twenty thousand people signed up to do a week of.

• 18:59Lewis Howes?

  Holy.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Ex- of like little, every day we did a little behavior tweak.

• 19:03Lewis Howes?

  Kind of like the happiness project.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Kind of like the happiness project, but on a community scale.

• 19:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh, cool.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  And so the idea was that every day for one week, they woke up to a mini podcast um, that explained the science and some of the design behind the technology and why we feel like our attention is being hijacked from us. And then a little behavior t- tweak to try. And so I had these twenty thousand people who then reported back with their data, cause we uh, we uh, used, we partnered with some apps. That helped us measure how much time we were spending on our phones, how many times a day we were picking them up.

• 19:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  And then I got all their stories back. And so. First of all, it was incredibly effective. That is what we heard from people. We heard from people who finished, finally finished their thesis, or came up with an way to you know, uh, uh, solve their startup problem idea that they were having, or solve a conflict at work, or even just like really small, minor things like how to help their kid make a friend, or, you know, homework isn't working out. How are you gonna do this? So all sorts of like from the very, you know, from making a delicious soup, I'm gonna call that creativity.

• 20:10Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  It is creativity. It's on a small scale, but it's lovely. Two huge things where one woman, um, in Wisconsin, she did the project while she was breaking up with her boyfriend. And she ended up, they owned a farm together. She bought him out. She decided to rename the farm Make Time Farm, and now every month she opens it up to the community one day a month, and asks them to come to drop their gadgets in a basket and just come and, they can do whatever they want. You can take a nap, pick an apple, bring your sewing machine, whatever. So,

• 20:41Lewis Howes?

  Read a book, whatever.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:42Lewis Howes?

  Play with chickens.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  What, exactly. Just something, something that takes you out of the daily, I gotta, what am I doing next? What's next? What's next? So the book is, is, looks at, we have the data from the original project. We have people's stories from the original project. Plus, I went into much uh, greater depth into some of the research as to why things worked. Like the first time I ran around Louis, I'll be totally honest, I was making it up as I was going around. I was like, I don't know, let's try this. Like, but this I could look back and be like, okay, this one actually really worked. Let's tweak it slightly so that we get better results and, um,

• 21:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  So like, for example, um, one of the things we ask you to do is delete an app on your phone that is driving you bananas. Do you know which one it would be for you? It's the one that's always like, hello, don't you just check me?

• 21:30Lewis Howes?

  Use a lot, or you don't use a lot?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  It's the one that you feel kinda yucky when you use it.

• 21:34Lewis Howes?

  Snapchat.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Okay, so for one day.

• 21:37Lewis Howes?

  Pretty much stopped using it, yeah, but it's like.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  So you take it off your phone just to like, Let go of the sensation of having it calling out to you all day long. Don't quit the platform. Right. So I think social media was definitely number one. Uh, number two was like some games.

• 21:51Lewis Howes?

  Oh yeah, I don't play games.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  I played.

• 21:53Lewis Howes?

  You do? Like Angry Bird or whatever?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Two dots.

• 21:56Lewis Howes?

  Two dots. What is that? Like some weird like Tetris thing or something?

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. But like artisanal Brooklyn style. It's really beautiful. And like, anyway. Um, that's my bag. And other people, it was news, like the constant checking of the headlines because that becomes its own sort of habit that you're constantly into. So we said to people like, just take it off your phone for the day and see what it feels like. Just feel, see what it feels like. And some people were like, I can't believe how many times a day my finger gravitated towards checking it.

• 22:28Lewis Howes?

  I want to know, is there an app that can tell you how many times you open and close your phone?

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:33Lewis Howes?

  And like any app?

• 22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:34Lewis Howes?

  Is that what you tracked?

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Moment is the app for iOS. Uh, Break Free is the one for Apple.

• 22:39Lewis Howes?

  I'm terrified. See how many times? Cause I'll like just open for a second or two and then close it and those like.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  And the funny thing is.

• 22:45Lewis Howes?

  Hundreds of times a day.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Well, that's step number one in, in the book. What we ask you to do is observe yourself.

• 22:52Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  The problem though, right? You, I thought, I was like, I probably check my phone like 30 times a day.

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  No, it's probably 200, right?

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  What was it for you?

• 23:00Speaker 01

  It was 90, between 90 and a hundred a day. And I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen the raw data.

• 23:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh my God. And it tells you how much time you're on there, right?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  It wasn't. And for me, like, time wasn't as much, but I realized like, I get into an elevator, I check my phone. I get out of an elevator. I check my phone. I walk through the door, I check my phone. It's like, you know, smokers, like, they wake up, they light a cigarette. You know, it's, it's a linked habit that we see. And I think a lot of us have found like, oh my God, it's, I'm, I don't even know what I'm looking for. I'm just checking, checking, checking.

• 23:31Lewis Howes?

  Cause I don't want to be bored.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:33Lewis Howes?

  It's, I'm scared of being like. Peaceful with my thoughts or whatever, just by myself.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Or not peaceful.

• 23:38Lewis Howes?

  Or just looking at someone in the eyes in the elevator.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:41Lewis Howes?

  I've got to check something and respond.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:43Lewis Howes?

  So, interesting. I would love to like gamify that for myself and see how many times I do it for the first week.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:49Lewis Howes?

  Okay, how can I get it under, you know, one fourth of this?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:53Lewis Howes?

  So I'm really mindful every time I open my phone.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:56Lewis Howes?

  It's intentional as opposed to reactive, right?

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like that you're like, and, and at this very moment, is what I'm about to do, uh, going to improve my life? Is it going to, is it something I need to do right now? I mean, I think that it's just taking that a second. And of course, the problem is though, that the business models of these platforms and apps is based on time with your eyeballs. And so that's not what they want. Their goal is to get you to check as many times a day as possible.

• 24:23Lewis Howes?

  And be addicted.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Essentially.

• 24:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and I don't think it's a malicious thing. Like let's.

• 24:28Lewis Howes?

  No, but they're trying to make money.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  They're trying to make money.

• 24:30Lewis Howes?

  Get off our app. They're like, come back.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I think, you know, that all sounds very nice when you're like, oh, we've built a user experience that people enjoy. And that's our job. That sounds much more benign than you have hijacked my attention and you are constantly, uh, addicting me to your platform to the point where I can't put you down.

• 24:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I mean, listen, it's our responsibility to be on something or not be on it, but yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I have to say though, I think I, I used to think that and I've changed my mind.

• 24:59Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 24:59Speaker 01

  I have because I think to be a person in the world today, you, how do you find a job? You need to be on LinkedIn. How do you, um, how do you stay in touch with your family members? You're on Facebook.

• 25:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, Instagram, yeah.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  It's become, and I think that's where we're seeing the change in terms of the responsibility that these tech companies have to us as, uh, individuals and as communities. I mean, I think it's, this past election has been fascinating to see sort of what influence these, uh, platforms have. And, and the, the way that everything is being driven through them. We're getting all of our information and our connections. And we are emoting through them. And I think they're they're no longer just like, oh, you know, something fun you do. No, they are the very means that we are.

• 25:48Lewis Howes?

  We spend our lives.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that and and so the question is, are they going to make us a more cohesive society? Or a more divided society? And I'm I think the jury unfortunately is out.

• 25:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's challenging, but we also get to be self aware and mindful of using them as well, I think.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  That is very true.

• 26:06Lewis Howes?

  We also can't be a victim to, well, these companies are manipulating our brains. Yes, they're designed to keep us attached attached to it, but once we're aware of that, hopefully we can create some boundaries for ourselves.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yes, and I think that's right. And I think and I think that line is going to be drawn in a different place for every single person, you know, it is my phone doesn't look like your phone. It is as personalized as the technology is these days. That's as personalized as the solution for each of us has to be like we each need to figure out. Like some people I talked to, they're like, I don't know what your problem is. Just put down your damn phone.

• 26:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  And I'm like, OK, so that's cool for you, but look around somebody you know, whether it is a parent or child or friend or coworker is struggling is feeling like this is driving them in a way that they maybe don't feel great about.

• 26:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  And whether that it's this like it's the tiniest feeling that people would describe to me. They're like, I just feel yucky. Like I look up and two hours are gone.

• 27:09Lewis Howes?

  What did I do with my life?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Do and as one researcher put it to me, the average person will spend two years of their life on Facebook. And and if you've decided.

• 27:18Lewis Howes?

  How many years?

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Like a regular lifespan.

• 27:21Lewis Howes?

  Oh, God.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Average lifespan. Which if you've decided like I love Facebook so much and I am having a ball on there and that is two years well spent. More power to you.

• 27:32Lewis Howes?

  Two years.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  But what I'm hearing from people is that they don't like themselves when they're on there that they they're not productive.

• 27:38Lewis Howes?

  Meaningful in the world, they're not making an impact.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Or they're what I hear from a lot of people is they're comparing their lives to other constantly. Yeah, the performative aspects of it. I mean, I think the key, though, is it's not a digital detox. I don't really believe in that. I don't think it's on or off. Because life is not a binary, right? Like we we have to figure out how to live with these things. And that comes back to your like personal choice question, which is like, okay, so how are you gonna live with it so that it improves your life? How are you going to make it work for you as opposed to feel like you're constantly struggling with it?

• 28:14Lewis Howes?

  What's your biggest challenge as a mom right now?

• 28:18Speaker 01

  I've reached a new phase. It's a very new one. It's homework and. Yeah.

• 28:23Lewis Howes?

  At ten years old, they have homework?

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Tons of it. Seven year old has homework.

• 28:26Lewis Howes?

  Oh, no.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  And I, you know, I think. I wonder if you've been hearing this a lot from people like, you know, the, the parent child relationship has changed. It is not like go to, go upstairs, go do your homework and then I'd call up for dinner time.

• 28:42Lewis Howes?

  It's you're doing it with them.

• 28:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:44Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  And I, and it's a common core, which.

• 28:47Lewis Howes?

  I mean, that's probably great for kids to have like the engagement of their parents there around or you're like, no.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 28:53Lewis Howes?

  You're saying it's like enabling them to like, hey, I'm gonna support you every day and you're gonna expect this and.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  The cons.

• 28:58Lewis Howes?

  Handhold you throughout the rest of your life.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. My husband is like, are we gonna be like tying their shoelaces when they're like juniors in college? I'm like, I don't know.

• 29:07Lewis Howes?

  They're seven and ten though. I mean, I didn't know what I was doing with homework at fifteen, you know, so.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Right? Well, that brings us back.

• 29:14Lewis Howes?

  Maybe they just need a tutor or who knows?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Maybe that might be the answer. I mean, but what I am gearing up for is the, uh, the smartphone thing. Not yet.

• 29:23Lewis Howes?

  And that's like eleven, twelve.

• 29:24Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, exactly. And like that, what you just said is really funny. You're like at fifteen and you didn't know what you're doing. Imagine being fifteen, not know what you're doing, but then being given this powerful tool that has the computing power in it. That like the space program had in the sixties, do you know what I mean? And we're asking these kids to self-regulate. When we like, I'm a Gen Xer and like, I can't self-regulate. How could like some like, you know, sweet thirteen year old possibly figure it out?

• 29:53Lewis Howes?

  Do they have iPads right now?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  We do have an iPad and it's a constant struggle. They want to be. Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, I, I just realized I am so not a special snowflake. I might know all of these things, but my struggle is just like every other parents where it's the constant negotiation. But I am trying really hard. Do you know Jane McGonigal? You should have her on your show. She's amazing. She's a game designer and a futurist at the Institute for the Future in Palo Alto. And she was talking to me about ways that she is looking at how parents can talk to their kids about their screen time and their iPad time so that it's less sort of, you know, constant fighting.

• 30:30Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  So her whole thing is, and I did try it with my kid. So he, he went to a sleepover, his first sleepover, and he was playing video games, of course, all night. And um, he came-

• 30:40Lewis Howes?

  With the kids.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  With the other kids. Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's fine. And he came home and I was like, so, this was based on Jane's uh, sort of coaching of me, which is that you, instead of being like, oh my god, get off the screen, get off the iPad, you're like, you're wasting your life, which shows like very little respect for something that the kid, obviously-

• 30:59Lewis Howes?

  Joys or wants to do.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. So how do you sort of broach that? So I was like, she was like, say, like, what did you learn? So I was like, what did you learn? And he's like, we killed the aliens. And I was like, okay, nope, gotta keep going here. I was like, no, what, what, she's, her key is to ask questions that tie what they're doing on the screen to real life. So I was like, what did you have to do to kill the aliens, digging in deeper? And then finally, he got to the point where like, we were on teams and we had to focus really hard and like-

• 31:28Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Exactly. So he got to this point where he started to um, look analytically at what he was doing. It showed me that I started to care about what he was doing too. He saw that my eyes lit up a little bit. We had a moment. And then the next time I was like, let's put the iPad away, like, it wasn't a, a, you know, a struggle or a fight. It wasn't like, it was like, okay, cool.

• 31:50Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:52Lewis Howes?

  It's funny because I played video games from like five to maybe nine. We had Nintendo. And that was like when Nintendo came out-

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:59Lewis Howes?

  The early eighties or mid eighties or whatever it was. So it was the big thing. And I was pretty much addicted for like three, four hours a day for a couple of years, right?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Did your parents have-

• 32:08Lewis Howes?

  They were regulating it. Yeah, they were constantly like, it was the thing. But I got really good. Like, I got really good at different games. And I learned how to be disciplined and focused and how to, when I would die, whatever Mario or something, when I would die, I would just like learn how to adjust. And I constantly learned from the games. And then I kind of just got over playing games at like ten, eleven, and I started focusing always on sports.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Cause you were good at sports.

• 32:34Lewis Howes?

  Well, it's just like, I wanted to be outside. I wanted to do something than just sit by myself all day. And so I started playing sports more and became obsessed with sports and I feel like I learned a lot from video games and applied it to sports. Now, some kids just keep playing video games until they're thirty or whatever, right? There's like the forty, you're like my husband, you know.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  No, she hates them. So that's like.

• 32:55Lewis Howes?

  But there's a lot of guys that just keep playing and they don't apply it to their life. And I think that's when it becomes like a challenge of it's just taking over your life and. You're not using it for good or anything.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  And I think that's interesting too, because now what's different than when you were playing is that.

• 33:09Lewis Howes?

  Be on teams with like headsets around the world, which is cool.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is kinda cool. Like I did meet this one gamer. Um, she plays for the varsity. Um, and it's a, you know, it's a thing now, right? Yeah, there's leagues and stuff. She has a scholarship like on a varsity video.

• 33:25Lewis Howes?

  You mean at a school?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:27Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 33:28Lewis Howes?

  I thought you meant like professional leagues.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  No, no, she has a scholarship at, at a college in Chicago.

• 33:34Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, where she plays, um, you know, online, oh, God, I get.

• 33:39Lewis Howes?

  Something World of Warcraft.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  That's what it is. Yes. And so she, yeah, so she has to go to practice.

• 33:45Lewis Howes?

  Shut up.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, just like you would have had to, two hours a day.

• 33:49Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  And then they have.

• 33:51Lewis Howes?

  Schooling for free. I'm surprised they even go to class because you can just play video games all day to get better.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, for some of them, it's just like, you know, why do you play sports so that you get, you know?

• 34:01Lewis Howes?

  The reason I went to school was to play sports.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  But then you also got a degree, which is like helped you too. So she, yeah, they want both, right? Yeah. So like she loves it.

• 34:10Lewis Howes?

  I didn't care about the degree. No, I just wanted to play sports.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  So for some of them, I think it's like, you know, how am I gonna pay for this?

• 34:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  I'm gonna get really fricking good at video games and that'll help me pay for it.

• 34:20Lewis Howes?

  So what did she learn from this or what's the, uh?

• 34:22Speaker 01

  She, well, it was interesting. She's an unusual case in that, um, she was thinking about transitioning to being a man. And so for her, like as a kid who didn't fit in socially in high school, video games were a place where she found people who didn't care what gender she was. They didn't care. Exactly. And she felt like those were her real friends. That was her real life. I worry that somebody like that is gonna have a hard time if and when they do have to. Working in an office where you actually have to like sit around a table and have a meeting and things like that. But you know, a lot of work is online now these days and they won't. But so you know, for her, it's like the positives were school is paid for.

• 35:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  She's with like minded people. Uh, not positive part is like, God, she's inside a lot.

• 35:10Lewis Howes?

  All day.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  All day.

• 35:12Lewis Howes?

  Staring at a computer.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Staring at a computer.

• 35:13Lewis Howes?

  Or a TV, whatever.

• 35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was like, do you guys have to do like, you know, I don't know, sprints, like just to stop your like butts from like atrophying, you know what I mean? She was like, no, like she and they went for pizza and.

• 35:27Lewis Howes?

  That's not healthy.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  I know, like physical health, I think is underestimated as well.

• 35:32Lewis Howes?

  So let's get back into more about this because is there any more science or data that just continues to prove that either taking 10 minutes a day and what are the activities that actually help with this?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:45Lewis Howes?

  Non-active, active activities, I guess. Is it meditation a part of this?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Meditation is actually something different, which is interesting. Meditation ignites different parts of your brains, different than the default mode. Um, in the default mode, what's interesting, so mind wandering, essentially we're thinking of boredom as a gateway to mind wandering. Daydreaming.

• 36:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  And I did have, you know, my listeners at first were like, why did you have to use the word boredom? It's super like negative. I don't want to be bored. Couldn't you use like daydreaming? That's such a nicer word.

• 36:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  And I was like, no, because I think the point is it is uncomfortable when you get bored. It is, you might start.

• 36:20Lewis Howes?

  You feel like you should be doing something or you feel like.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Maybe you start thinking about something that's been bothering you and you feel uncomfortable and you don't want to deal with it. Like I had one woman who was like, I sat in the Whole Foods parking lot and like just cried her eyes out for 20 minutes. And she's like, last week I would have spent those 20 minutes like looking at Instagram. But she was like, I needed to deal with some shit in my life.

• 36:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  And like, yeah, we gotta deal with some stuff in our lives. And I had one woman. She was a girl at one of my bookstore talks. She was like, I don't think I want to do this because when I'm not on social media, I'm really lonely. And I was like, yeah, being a human, like you will be lonely.

• 37:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  But I was like, you know, you need to spend some time with yourself because at the end of the day, you and you are going to be together for the rest of your lives, you know, and you should be good company to yourself, essentially. But I was thinking about some of the other science. I think the Boston Consulting Group example that I use might be, uh, you know, just a good way that we can look at it, that it's not just a personal thing, but it that it has to be sort of a cultural thing.

• 37:27Lewis Howes?

  With teams as well?

• 37:28Speaker 01

  In the workplace and with teams, for sure.

• 37:30Lewis Howes?

  So how if you're, if you're a team or in the workplace or a sports team or whatever?

• 37:34Speaker 01

  So burnout, burnout is the problem here, right? So Boston Consulting Group, they did an experiment um as part of a study at Harvard, where they made sure that their teams, the, the Boston Consulting Group was dealing with like huge burnout, that people were like, within two years, they were quitting, they just couldn't, you know, and it's like

• 37:50Lewis Howes?

  Eighty hour weeks.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Exactly. On call all the time, all of it. And you know, of course, retention is a real problem with like in terms of spending money for a corporation. You know, having to rehire people and

• 38:02Lewis Howes?

  It's a lot.

• 38:03Speaker 01

  It's a lot of time and money. So they were like, how can we increase retention? And what they tried to do was um they, they purposefully had time off to the point where you were told this, these days, you are not to answer your phone, you are to do something like cooking or exercising or spending time with your family. Your colleagues have your back, they are on it and they rotated. They just kept it up so that there was purposeful scheduled time off.

• 38:34Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 38:34Speaker 01

  And the retention rates skyrocketed and they did better work. And so when people say to me, they're like, this is all well and good. I'll totally do this in my personal life, but how do I convince my boss? I think that we need to have a, a Huge culture shift that goes on.

• 38:51Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Um, the other thing that.

• 38:53Lewis Howes?

  I think if your, if your company is already balanced with your workflow, maybe you don't need it. If you're working like normal hours or there's some time off here and there.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:02Lewis Howes?

  If people are stressed and anxious and exhausted, then definitely need to take a look. I'm assuming, right?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Well, I don't hear tons of people who are feeling like there are boundaries at work. And I think things like Slack, which is, you know, my team uses it. It's great.

• 39:16Lewis Howes?

  We stopped using it, right?

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Did you?

• 39:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Oh, that's it. Why? Tell me.

• 39:21Lewis Howes?

  Why did we stop, Christine? I mean, I think it was just annoying me.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  It was like one more place to check.

• 39:25Lewis Howes?

  Exhausting. Yeah, it was just exhausting. I don't know. And it wasn't really productive, right? Yeah, for us, it wasn't really productive, so.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  I think that, I mean, that's what I'm hearing from people. I went to give a talk at Google and I was like, you know, I, I got, I'm pretty tough on the tech companies in this book. And I was kind of expecting blowback, but you know what they wanted to talk about? They're like, um, I just, I'm having trouble concentrating on my work because of all the constant pings.

• 39:47Lewis Howes?

  Constant pings.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Constant. And I'm worried about burnout.

• 39:51Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  That is what they want. I was like, oh, software engineers, they're just like us.

• 39:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  So I think for me, one of the challenges in the book is to take a vacation, which is to, you know, we all use the out of office responder when we go on vacation or we should be. If you're not, you should. But what I'm saying is do it once a day for one hour and say, you know, uh, it can be like I, whatever you need to say. If your boss isn't going to be cool, say you have a stomach virus.

• 40:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Or if like, if you're trying to change the culture where you work, say like, I'm taking an hour to die or two hours to dive into this report and doing deep work, please.

• 40:27Lewis Howes?

  And not constantly checking.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 40:29Lewis Howes?

  Like, oh.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  I'll get back to you when I'm back. Right.

• 40:31Lewis Howes?

  Never really get in the flow if you're always getting notifications.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Totally. And we know now like what happens. The average person, uh, one researcher told me to switches tasks at work 566 times a day.

• 40:44Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  We used to switch our attention. This is a wonderful professor at UC Irvine, um, Gloria Mark. She said, we used to switch tasks, um. On average, every three minutes, that was 10 years ago. Now we switch every 45 seconds on average. So no wonder.

• 41:02Lewis Howes?

  People aren't just present, focusing on one task.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and to, you know, and maybe that's writing a report, maybe it's doing an interview, maybe it's whatever your work is. It's important to give it that depth that it requires.

• 41:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  So, and I think, I think the key though, is, you know, people are like, well, I can totally do that for myself. It's the people around me. So how do we reset the expectations of the people around me? Like my husband, you know, he's like, dude, I texted you, why didn't you get back to me? And I want to be like, dude, because I was in a meeting, you know, I can't just be responding. So I think saying to people,

• 41:37Lewis Howes?

  Smart.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  I'm not here for the next two hours. I will get back to you when I'm back online at four o'clock. And then people kind of relax. They exhale and they,

• 41:46Lewis Howes?

  You've set the expectation now. Yeah.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Precisely. I mean, imagine like for me, Google Docs, like it's a wonderful thing.

• 41:53Lewis Howes?

  Love it.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Right? Like, did your podcast run on Google Docs?

• 41:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, everything.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's the best.

• 41:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  But it kills me when I'm working on a script and I see my producer pop up in it and I have to be like, could you please get out right now?

• 42:05Lewis Howes?

  Let me focus.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  Right. What if there was a button that was like, Manoush is deep at work. She'll be, you know, we'll, we'll let you know when she, the document is open again, or just some gentle communicative way of resetting the sort of boundaries that there really need to be at work.

• 42:19Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. What's been the response of this type of information so far with, when people are, you talked about this a couple of years ago, but since this is coming more and more for you.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Well, for me, it was like, I put out the call like, like a month ago. I was like, anybody out there remember the original project?

• 42:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  It was insane. People were like, oh, not only do I remember it, like this guy Liam from Los Angeles, he took every social media platform off of his phone two years ago. He'd never put them back on.

• 42:47Lewis Howes?

  He's probably like freedom. He's probably just like.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:51Lewis Howes?

  Feel relaxed. Why is everyone stressed out?

• 42:53Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 42:54Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. And it's not that he like quit any of those platforms. It's that when he does them, he sits down. He goes on his laptop.

• 43:01Lewis Howes?

  Or he's on his computer and he's like.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 43:02Lewis Howes?

  I spend sixty minutes and I do it. I batch it.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly.

• 43:06Lewis Howes?

  Email. It's not every two minutes. It's all at one time.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  All at one time. And he feels, you know, there's not, it's like the shameful thing of the constant checking and like the, you know.

• 43:15Lewis Howes?

  Gotta get back to people.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so that now he sits down and do Facebook for twenty minutes and that's fine. And then he shuts it off and goes on with whatever else he has to do. So to hear people who sort of made very small behavior tweaks is very wonderful. I would say the most gratifying though, is really the teachers who are using it in their classrooms. There's lots of.

• 43:36Lewis Howes?

  Kids use like their phones in class now all the time, right? Like.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  They do.

• 43:39Lewis Howes?

  Public schools, they have, they're just like, can't stop the kids from using it.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. And even if it's not the phones, or as one teacher said to me, he was like, after we did the project in the classroom, I was like, what did you see? Like, were people like twitching? Like, what happened? He's like, he said, actually, no, what he saw was more eye contact between the kids because what they realized was not only was it their smartphones, but they have iPads in the classroom. They have smart boards in the classroom. Right. Everything is mitigated via a screen. So when they took them away and they started to have some of the nonverbal communication that as we know is so important in terms of empathy and understanding people around you.

• 44:18Lewis Howes?

  Building relationship trust, everything.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 44:21Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think, you know, to me, like, this is the next chapter in media and digital literacy. It's not just teaching kids to code, but teaching them how this stuff has been built, why the business models are the way they are, and what that effect has on their everyday behavior and how it can be a problem if you are not. Conscious of it or educated about it.

• 44:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Um, another UCLA professor is doing a long study into teenagers who use social media just to like, hang out in social media versus if they use it to like as a thing to set up like, you know, getting together with friends, like as a tool to set up stuff. And the kids who just spend a ton of time on social media were less good at thinking about what their future goals were and less good at coming up with strategies for solving their neighborhoods problems.

• 45:13Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  I mean, so we're seeing the direct, potentially long-term correlation with some of, I mean, is it causal? We don't know. Is there a correlation? It looks like it. Um, and I think, you know, it, it, let's just talk about it. Let's not.

• 45:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I think we gotta test it for ourselves too.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:30Lewis Howes?

  You know, I don't know if you have like an ideal format for people where it's like, okay, 60 minutes a day, you're supposed to be bored or like once a month, you take two days off or whatever it is and you just do nothing.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  What are your, what are your digital habits?

• 45:42Lewis Howes?

  For me, it's like I'm constantly just aware of how I'm feeling. And if I feel like I've been disconnected or if I feel like I've been constantly reactive.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:49Lewis Howes?

  I just put it down and I focus on disconnecting. For me, I like to watch movies, which is still like looking at a screen, but allows my mind to relax.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 45:58Lewis Howes?

  And I'm not checking anything. And I just, and I kind of daydream in that movie watching. It's very relaxing for me. And it inspires me. It just like makes me feel more too.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Well, cause there's a narrative and it's linear, right?

• 46:12Lewis Howes?

  There's like emotion. I'll cry during movies. Like I'll just feel and it brings me back to like reconnecting to my life.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 46:20Lewis Howes?

  So it's kind of.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Do you think that has to, like the ability to sort of observe what you're feeling like, I think that's underestimated how hard that is for some people. Do you think that comes back to being an athlete? Like being in touch with your body?

• 46:32Lewis Howes?

  Maybe. I think also meditation helps me just to like really focus on my vision for my life and my dreams. And eliminate the stresses and anxieties that maybe surrounded my life in those moments. So I, I just try to really work out to release emotion and to feel good. I try to meditate to do the same thing. And then I try to find time when I can during the day to just veg.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Uh huh. You do?

• 46:59Lewis Howes?

  Uh yeah, of course. Well, I'm just like on the couch vegging. Sometimes there'll be a documentary on and other times I just won't have anything on it.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:06Lewis Howes?

  And veg with my girlfriend or whatever.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:07Lewis Howes?

  Like let's connect and

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 47:09Lewis Howes?

  Just veg out.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Chill.

• 47:10Lewis Howes?

  And not respond to something and not like check our email and just veg.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:15Lewis Howes?

  But I think going to the beach too and just like being in some type of nature, even though there's people around, but just being out in the outside. When I lived in New York, I loved just walking to the park and people watching.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good.

• 47:27Lewis Howes?

  Just taking like two hours, Madison Square Park, Central Park and just like, I mean, Washington Square Park was my favorite place. Just like sit and listen to music and like watch people and just have conversations.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  The guys playing chess on the corner.

• 47:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 47:40Lewis Howes?

  And I like to just create my own experiments with people in public.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  What do you mean? That sounds exciting.

• 47:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, no, when I lived in New York especially, I did different projects. When I first moved there, I was single and I was like, I know nothing about this city.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 47:55Lewis Howes?

  I don't know anyone, so every day I'm gonna buy a red rose and I'm gonna give it to a girl. Any type of girl, wasn't like a girl I was attracted to, just a girl or a woman or a young girl, whatever. I just wanted to see what would happen.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  And?

• 48:09Lewis Howes?

  It was fascinating. I did it for a few weeks and there was.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  Did they think you were insane or that they were being filmed?

• 48:14Lewis Howes?

  Like, yeah, I mean, some women were just like blew me off when they even look at me. I just like, hey, I wanted to give you a rose and they would like run away from me.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And other people were like, wow, that was so thoughtful. Like, thank you. Why? And I just said, I just wanted to have conversations with people and acknowledge people for, you know, how they show up in the world. And I would just try to find people I felt like could use a rose. And so I would just have conversations.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Super weird dude. I kinda love it though. Yeah.

• 48:38Lewis Howes?

  Very weird and different, but I try to do that to, to one, get out of my comfort zone.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:44Lewis Howes?

  And just experiment and stuff and just be like, oh, let's see what happens. So.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  Modern day Romeo.

• 48:50Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly. It only lasted for a couple of weeks.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  Um, and then. Roses are expensive.

• 48:53Lewis Howes?

  I started dating someone and it's like.

• 48:55Speaker 01

  Did you meet them via the experiment?

• 48:57Lewis Howes?

  Someone that I, I gave the rose to and kind of like. Wasn't really dating, but was like, you know, hanging out and having fun and and then it didn't work out. It was, it was a fun experiment. And I was like, okay, I've met people and you know, I was doing other stuff, but

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Made you get out in the world.

• 49:10Lewis Howes?

  It made me get out in the world.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:12Lewis Howes?

  And not be on my phone and just like connect.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Well, I think like what is funny about it is like that there is such a specific goal that you had to like, but, but every day you could reach your goal. You're like, it was very

• 49:23Lewis Howes?

  One rose, one person, that's it.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's, that's way more attainable than like, make sure you meet people in New York. Cause that's hard. But like setting like small little behaviors, like

• 49:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Or like write a poem for someone or whatever. That might be a little weird too, but it's like sing a song for someone, do something that's different. They're going to remember it. These people like would smile and they would remember it, you know?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  So I had a funny thing. Somebody said to me the other day, this woman, a younger woman I work with came in and she was like, oh my God, I just saw someone that I'm friends with on Instagram. But I don't really know her, but I know everything about her life because of Instagram, but I don't know whether it's appropriate for me to say hello to her in real life. Like it was like she was li- like literally living in two separate worlds. And the crossover was gone and I, I didn't know how to feel about it. I was like, well, on the one hand, she seems very real to you. Maybe, you know, so you're having this relationship with her online. I don't want to diminish that. If that feels real to you, then that feels real to you. On the other hand, that is so messed up that like you couldn't even go up to them and be like,

• 50:33Speaker 01

  hey, so and so, you and I are buds on the thing and maybe we could all, but then

• 50:39Lewis Howes?

  Real life buds.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Right. But that would be seen and she was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. Like that would be seen as um, inappropriate or weird. Yeah. Like not

• 50:48Lewis Howes?

  Why do you talk to them online? Yeah. Why do you connect?

• 50:50Speaker 01

  It's like they're two different planets, right? It's like there's a different planet, like two different planets. I don't know. I, I'm, I'm trying to live online in a way that it works with my I R L life too. Like, you know, like, but that's me. So yeah, right. I R L life. I don't know.

• 51:06Lewis Howes?

  Do you talk in tone? Text as?

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly.

• 51:10Lewis Howes?

  What do you wish more people would ask you that they don't ask?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Oh gosh. That's a

• 51:17Lewis Howes?

  Whether about this topic or about anything in general.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  What do I wish they would ask me? Hmm, I think it would be something gendered about women. Hmm, what do you mean? It's been a really interesting experience to, when I started doing my podcast, it was really more about the tech economy. And my background was as a hardcore journalist, the BBC with Reuters and, you know, and I very quickly learned that, well, maybe not quick enough, that what my audience didn't need was another place to understand, you know, what sort of 10x returns there were, what upgrades there were, but what they wanted was a place

• 51:59Speaker 01

  to understand how to deal, like a guide to dealing with this accelerating world, how technology was changing, how they found romance. Yeah. You're rather old fashioned, I'm afraid. Um, or how, whatever work they did. And so I, that I think is seen as a very sort of female approach to covering technology. And I had some guy ask me the other day at a book tour, he's like, I don't get it. You're, you're kind of like about like wellness, but then you also know a lot about like encryption and privacy. And as my producer said, like, yeah, you can wear yoga pants and care about encryption too, like that it doesn't,

• 52:42Speaker 01

  like, it's not just about the techies anymore that we're, I don't think we're even going to use the word tech or digital in like 10 years. It's just life now. And so we have to apply some of the things that you talk about on your podcast all the time to how we use the technology, especially with AI and VR and all of these other two consonant word letter things that are coming, that are going to change our lives and, and, and where I do think at a crossroads right now, where we have to decide where we want the humans to continue to make the decisions and where, what we are okay with handing over to the algorithms. And it's, it's, it's hard and it's complicated, but it matters in ways that it's not just about, um,

• 53:26Speaker 01

  You know, the latest startup or whatever. It's really affecting people's lives.

• 53:30Lewis Howes?

  Something I love about doing an in-person podcast, you have to, it forces me to connect.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:35Lewis Howes?

  There's a reason why I don't do sitting next to someone.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 53:39Lewis Howes?

  Like two chairs side by side because I feel like you still leave eye contact.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 53:44Lewis Howes?

  Sitting across from you.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:46Lewis Howes?

  We look at each other in the eyes probably 70% of the time.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:49Lewis Howes?

  And I feel like.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  Disconcerting, so I'm not used to it. Yeah.

• 53:51Lewis Howes?

  Most people aren't.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:53Lewis Howes?

  And I feel like that's when you can tap into the greatest information.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:57Lewis Howes?

  And that's when you can tap into the heart the most as opposed to just the analytical mind kind of rambling off.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:02Lewis Howes?

  Looking out into space and then coming back to someone.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Well, it's been interesting to see when your eyes light up, like certain things I say, you're like, hmm. Oh, that one was good.

• 54:10Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Other ones, you're not as interested in it, but that's okay. Like, I'm like, it's important anyway, I'll say it. So it's cool.

• 54:15Lewis Howes?

  It's all good. Everything's important.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a, there's a side conversation going on between the eye contact.

• 54:20Lewis Howes?

  Of course. Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 54:21Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 54:21Lewis Howes?

  Um, very cool. Well, I'm excited for this. Uh, I really am excited for people to get it. Bored and Brilliant: How Spacing Out Can Unlock Your Most Productive and Creative Self. Make sure you guys go get a copy. I've got three final questions for you.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 54:34Lewis Howes?

  Um, but where can they get this? Uh, where's your website and your social media?

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, uh, Manoush Zee, that is my website, manoushze.com. You can get the book wherever books are sold. I read the audiobook. You and I were just talking about.

• 54:49Lewis Howes?

  Yours is a shorter book than mine, so it must have taken only two days.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  It took two, that's exactly what it took. Two days. Oh, my God. Painful. Your neck and shoulders, my Lord. Um, and then, uh, of course on Kindle and all, and multiple languages coming, which is super exciting.

• 55:05Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  The Japanese translation is super weird. Yeah, it's like.

• 55:08Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Using smartphone with appropriate behaviors or something like that is the translation.

• 55:13Lewis Howes?

  Very cool. And you say you're Manoush Zee on social media, right?

• 55:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:16Lewis Howes?

  Okay, cool.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:17Lewis Howes?

  Uh, so make sure you guys go get a copy of the book. We'll have it all linked up.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Come say hi on Twitter or wherever.

• 55:21Lewis Howes?

  Where do you hang out most?

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Mostly Twitter, actually. I know the trolls will come and get me soon enough, but for now, I'm still there.

• 55:27Lewis Howes?

  I'll be, I'll be there with you. Um, and then your podcast, Note to Self, that's everywhere.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:33Lewis Howes?

  iTunes, Spotify. You on Spotify yet or no?

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Yes, we are, because I'm with part of WNYC Studios, so we're part of that.

• 55:39Lewis Howes?

  Very cool. Awesome.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  We have a lot of fun.

• 55:40Lewis Howes?

  And you do it once a week, right?

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Do it once a week. We might change that. I don't know. We're thinking. Well, I want to do more big projects like this.

• 55:48Lewis Howes?

  That's what you should do.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:49Lewis Howes?

  Like, once a week with like a micro project every week too or something.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be cool, right?

• 55:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it would be, I think. Um, final few questions. This is called the three truths.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 55:59Lewis Howes?

  So if you, uh, this is your last day many years from now.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:04Lewis Howes?

  And, um, you've, you've done everything you want in your life, but for whatever reason, it was all erased. All your podcasts, your books, anything you ever do for the rest of your life is gone.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 56:14Lewis Howes?

  But you have a piece of paper and a pen that you get to write down three things you know to be true.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 56:19Lewis Howes?

  From all the experiences you've had in your life.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:21Lewis Howes?

  All the lessons, everything. What would you say are your three truths or three lessons?

• 56:28Lewis Howes?

  This is all people would have to remember you by.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  What I want them to be aspirationally.

• 56:33Lewis Howes?

  For the world to remember you by, and this is all they would have.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  For the world to remember me by. She helped, like, can I, in the third person?

• 56:40Lewis Howes?

  I would say, I would say the truths for others.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Truths for others.

• 56:44Lewis Howes?

  The best way to live life or less, your lessons that you would share with the world.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  Okay, so just because it's not scientifically proven doesn't mean that something you sense is happening to you isn't true.

• 57:01Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Can I explain why?

• 57:04Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 57:04Speaker 01

  The reason why I say that one is because, um, we are only now seeing a lot of the science and research done regarding how smartphones are changing our brains. Whereas a couple of years ago, a lot of us were saying, like, I feel like my brain is changing. Yet you were right. Listen to that.

• 57:19Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  The science sometimes can't keep up. Um, okay, so that's number one. Not to say that science isn't like a wonderful thing.

• 57:26Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Uh, number two, huh?

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Play the long game. I, I, I just feel like that one just keeps coming back and biting me on the ass over and over again. Just like, it's okay if it doesn't work out today, or tomorrow, or next week, or next month. Look forward, look forward, look forward.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and enjoy where you are right now, because that's okay, too.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Number three.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  I'm trying to decide between compassion and sleep.

• 58:01Lewis Howes?

  It's a good one.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Don't they?

• 58:05Lewis Howes?

  It could be both.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:06Lewis Howes?

  Compassionate sleep.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Be compassionate to yourself. Let yourself sleep. It's okay. Rest is, is vital.

• 58:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it is.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  It is vital.

• 58:15Lewis Howes?

  It's so important.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:16Lewis Howes?

  And if we're not recovering, we're going to be like stressed out throughout the day. Yeah.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:20Lewis Howes?

  I like those. I like those.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  I might have to change them when I, if I ever come back. I don't know. Now that's going to stick with me, that question. That's a good thing to like, what would they, those answers be? That's a wonderful thing to carry with you, anyway.

• 58:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's fun.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 58:35Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Manoush, for bringing to light the thing that people are missing out on so much right now. People are missing out on the ability to be bored, to daydream, and to allow their minds to relax and not feel so reactive. I think it's probably one of the most important things right now to help our brains recover, besides sleep, is during the day, the things we're not doing. As opposed to focusing on doing things every day. So for you, working on this and really bringing it to light and sharing it with the world, it's making a massive impact.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  That's really nice. Thank you, Lewis. That's why I do it. Like, that, like, if you, honestly, that one person who says to you, you changed how I think about how I want to live my life, you're like, oh, that's what it's all about.

• 59:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. Final questions. What's your definition of greatness?

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Oh, my definition of greatness is that it's always going to be different than your definition of greatness. Only you know. Don't let anyone else define your greatness for you. It's that moment when you feel like there's glitter sprinkled over your life. It's that moment when you, I know like it's different at work, like at work, it's like when we've really worked on a podcast and like we've mixed it really beautifully and like the timing is right and like we call it the je ne sais quoi is just there and I just feel this like, ah, so good, you know?

• 1:00:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Okay, so that's at home and then there, you know, family stuff, there's constant balancing act going on, but that moment when like the four of us, you know, the family unit, we're all laughing at one thing, that is greatness and we're not trying to kill each other or somebody's not crying or mad or whatever, but we're all cracking up at the same thing. That is greatness.

• 1:00:29Lewis Howes?

  Love it, Manoush, thank you so much.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  So fun, I love doing this, this is great.

• 1:00:33Lewis Howes?

  Great, thank you.

• 1:00:36Lewis Howes?

  There you have it, my friends, the cure for boredom is curiosity, but Alan Parr says that there is no cure for curiosity. I hope you are allowing yourself to find the magic in the boredom through the creative curiosity, through allowing your mind to wander and dream and explore as opposed to always being busy and having to do something constantly. Take those breaks, allow yourself to explore in the mind. I hope you guys enjoyed this one. If you did, make sure to share it with your friends, lewishouse.com/551 and let Manoush know what you thought about this as well. We'll have a bunch of different quotes, tweets that you can share out with your friends

• 1:01:17Lewis Howes?

  over at the show notes, lewishouse.com/551, the full video interview as well. Give us some love over on YouTube, subscribe there if you want to get videos sent to you as well. And as always, guys, you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.