524 Dream Less, Do More, and Create Real Happiness with Mark Manson

"It's not the emotion that is good or bad, it's what you do about it." - Mark Manson If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/524 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 524 with number one New York Times bestselling author, Mark Manson.

• 0:09Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:35Lewis Howes?

  Tony Robbins said, "Whatever you hold in your mind on a consistent basis is exactly what you will experience in your life." Welcome, welcome, welcome. We've got Mark Manson in the house, who is a self-help author, blogger, and entrepreneur. And his blog, markmanson.net, is visited by over 2 million people a month. He is also the number one New York Times bestselling author of the mega-hit, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a [bleep], A Counterintuitive Approach to Living the Good Life. He's also been featured all over and quoted in the press, including CNN, BBC News, Time, and so much more. And we dive in to the counterintuitive

• 1:19Lewis Howes?

  approach to living a good life. We talk about the importance of saying no, and why you should say no often. Also, why dreams are overrated. And I have a little bit of a debate here with Mark. How self-improvement and success are not the same thing. What to do with the problems that success brings. That's right, success brings problems. And why the character of your self-talk is what really matters. And before we dive in, want to give a shout out to the fan and review of the week. This is from Adalas Pride, who says, "Woo-ee! A true display of great minds and ideas coming together. These interviews and insights will catapult

• 2:00Lewis Howes?

  you to a new heightened level of your true, unique greatness. So many tangible tools to implement into your life, business, etc." That will yield you results. You cannot afford to miss these and give yourself this gift today. Thank you, Lewis, for orchestrating this platform. Bravo. So thank you so much for being the fan in the review of the week. If you guys want a chance to be shouted out on one of the episodes, then go ahead and leave us a review over on iTunes today at School of Greatness. We are less than one month away from the Summit of Greatness. Oh my goodness, guys. We're getting so pumped up here at the Greatness Headquarters because we are putting together a once in a lifetime experience.

• 2:45Lewis Howes?

  I'm so jazzed about just putting this together because I wish I was attending it, actually. The amount of individuals we have coming from all over the world are staggering. And the speaker lineup is just gonna blow you away. And always, we like to do special surprises. So things that aren't even on the site are gonna be happening that are gonna blow your mind. So if you haven't signed up yet, we've got about 100 tickets left. Make sure to go to summertofgreatness.com right now to get yours and I'll see you in a month. All right, let's dive into this. If you have read this book, The Subtle Art of Not Giving a [BLEEP]. Then make sure to tag me at Lewis Howes on Instagram right now on your Instagram story with the link.

• 3:29Lewis Howes?

  LewisHowes.com/524. Have your friends swipe up to listen to it. Listen along while you're listening and let me know what you think of this. And without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only Mark Manson.

• 3:47Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness Podcast. We've got Mark Manson in the house. Good to see you, man. How you doing?

• 3:55Mark Manson?

  It's good to be here.

• 3:55Lewis Howes?

  I'm pumped. I've been learning about your stuff for a while now. You've been writing online for a long time. Amazing articles. You have an amazing website where you publish all your content. And now you have a new book out that is a massive hit already. Big New York Times bestseller. I think it's been on the list for how long now?

• 4:13Mark Manson?

  Basically since it came out.

• 4:14Lewis Howes?

  Basically since it came out.

• 4:15Mark Manson?

  So like nine months, eight months?

• 4:16Lewis Howes?

  Nine months. Every single week or is it dropped off at all?

• 4:18Mark Manson?

  Every single week.

• 4:19Lewis Howes?

  Every single week, nine months. The Subtle Art of Not Giving a [BLEEP]. A counterintuitive approach to living a good life. Make sure you guys pick it up right now if you haven't got it. We're gonna dive into this and a lot more today. I'm super pumped about this. You're good.

• 4:33Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 4:34Lewis Howes?

  Super pumped about this. We've got some mutual friends. Um, you, you're, you're not really out there publicly that much though, like on social media. You post your stuff, but you're not like.

• 4:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I'm, I'm bad at that. I'm bad at self-promotion. I'm not like, I, I've just, yeah, my wife's always bug it. She's like, why don't you use your Instagram account?

• 4:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you never do.

• 4:54Mark Manson?

  You have like 30,000 followers. I was like, oh yeah, I should take pictures.

• 4:58Lewis Howes?

  That's funny. You're like, well, when I'm on the New York Times list every week, it doesn't matter, right? You don't have to promote it.

• 5:02Mark Manson?

  I guess.

• 5:03Lewis Howes?

  When you write that great of a book, it speaks for itself. Um, very excited about this. Why did you decide to, to start talking about this? You know, why did you write a book? A counterintuitive approach to

• 5:13Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 5:13Lewis Howes?

  Living a great life. And a lot of things you say in here, I want to get into because I'm like, huh?

• 5:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 5:18Lewis Howes?

  Is it all true or whatever? So excited about this.

• 5:20Mark Manson?

  Um, I wanted to write, I decided a couple of years ago, I really wanted to write a self-help book about pain. Cause there's a lot of self-help books out there that about positivity and growth and, you know, striving and I wanted to talk about the sucky things in life. You know, like I want, and I, and I wanted to make an argument that I guess negative, negative experience or negativity, it matters. Like you can't, you can't just pretend like it's not there. You can't just go through your life.

• 5:54Lewis Howes?

  Can't just say positive thinking, no matter what.

• 5:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah, like it's every, no matter how successful you get, no matter how famous you get, no matter how much money you make, no matter how awesome your relationships are. Things are gonna suck sometimes, no matter what. And you're, you're never gonna avoid that. And so kind of my starting point with this is like, all right, so let's talk about what it's like to have things suck. Um, and how can we? Not necessarily get rid of that or solve it, but like just live through it better, suffer better.

• 6:25Lewis Howes?

  Suffer better.

• 6:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 6:27Lewis Howes?

  Do you believe we can end our suffering?

• 6:29Mark Manson?

  Uh, no.

• 6:31Lewis Howes?

  Why not?

• 6:32Mark Manson?

  Um, well, I, I talk about it in the book. I, I make the point that, you know, pain exists for a reason. Like we evolve pain for a reason. Cause it, it, you know, if you think of like a little kid touching a hot stove, like that's actually a really important experience. It teaches the kid, don't touch a hot stove anymore. Like that's gonna, that, that's dangerous.

• 6:52Lewis Howes?

  It's gonna hurt you. Yeah.

• 6:53Mark Manson?

  Yeah, exactly. And so pain evolved to kind of show us like what's dangerous and what's not, you know, what, what can threaten us or, or what could harm us and what, what doesn't. So pain's not necessarily a bad thing. Like pain can actually be a very important and beneficial thing, depending on the context and the circumstances.

• 7:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 7:14Mark Manson?

  And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's a necessity in life, I would argue.

• 7:19Lewis Howes?

  So is, is, I agree that pain is a necessity. Do you think that's, that's suffering is a necessity?

• 7:25Mark Manson?

  Um, well, are you defining suffering as like the meaning we attach to pain or like?

• 7:30Lewis Howes?

  I would say like ongoing pain.

• 7:33Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 7:33Lewis Howes?

  But like, okay, you've touched the stove and you felt the pain.

• 7:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Lewis Howes?

  For 30 seconds, do you need to hold and be attached to that pain for the next day? Or a week or a month and be like, oh, I touched this thing. It hurt. I'm gonna hold on to this pain.

• 7:46Mark Manson?

  I don't think suffering is, it's not so in a, in a very broad, like just if we're looking at somebody's whole lifetime. Yeah, I think so. Because there, there's, there are, there's always gonna be some things in your life that, you know, say a parent dies, um, or divorce or something like that is gonna cause suffering. And I think it's okay for that to cause suffering. Like I think it's normal. I, I would argue it's healthy for that to cause suffering. Because, um, just the experience of loss, you have to, you have to be attached to that pain. Um, because it was such an important part of your life. Um. That said, I do think probably a very large percentage of suffering in life, probably

• 8:30Mark Manson?

  a large percentage of the suffering that a lot of us go through is not necessary.

• 8:35Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:35Mark Manson?

  It's self-invented, or it's we create it to make ourselves feel more important, or to make excuses for ourselves, things like that.

• 8:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. So I learned from a famous meditation instructor, Krishna G., who said that suffering is the obsessive self-centric thinking.

• 8:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:56Lewis Howes?

  And once we remove the obsessive self-centric thinking, our suffering leaves us.

• 9:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:03Lewis Howes?

  So we can feel attached to this pain of a divorce or a loss in our life, and we're constantly thinking about ourselves, what we're missing, what we're lacking, what we, you know, we had once that we don't have anymore.

• 9:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:16Lewis Howes?

  But once we remove that obsessive thinking about what we don't have anymore, the suffering starts to end.

• 9:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:22Lewis Howes?

  So I think it's a decision, it's a choice that we can make in any moment. We can hold on to that obsessive thinking and longing for years and be like, I used to have this thing and now I don't have it anymore.

• 9:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:33Lewis Howes?

  I'm suffering. Or we can be aware and, you know, and say, I'm moving forward.

• 9:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:40Lewis Howes?

  At any moment.

• 9:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Lewis Howes?

  I think there's a healthy balance to being like, you know, not just moving on when someone dies in the next hour.

• 9:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's like, ah, it's over.

• 9:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, there's a grieving and all the process.

• 9:50Mark Manson?

  It's interesting because, you know, and I spend a lot of the book talking about this, it's not necessarily, you know, the pleasure or pain that's important, it's the meaning that we attach around it. It's like, it's the story that we invent to kind of encapsulate it. And I think they're very healthy and positive story, or I wouldn't say, like, they're very healthy stories and meanings that we can create around our pain, and they're very unhealthy stories and meanings we can create around our pain, and there's healthy meanings and stories that we can create around our pleasure or our positive experiences. And there's also unhealthy meaning and stories that we can create around our positive experiences.

• 10:32Mark Manson?

  And so, you know, kind of the whole crux of the book is like, you know. It's just all about that meaning. It's all about what, you know, what values are you choosing? Like what, what are you, what is like the lesson you're pulling from all these experiences? Both your good and your bad.

• 10:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Mark Manson?

  Because that's what matters, you know, if you just look at feeling good versus feeling bad, your life's, everybody's life is doing this all the time.

• 10:59Mark Manson?

  You know, what, what stays constant and what like kind of keeps you, your center of gravity, like going the right direction is that sense of meaning or that those values that you built for yourself.

• 11:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I agree. What would you say is the time where you suffered the most?

• 11:14Mark Manson?

  Oh, man. I guess I would say consciously.

• 11:20Mark Manson?

  Consciously, I think my first girlfriend, that first heartbreak.

• 11:24Lewis Howes?

  That's the worst.

• 11:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Um, and, and just the way it happened. I mean, she was cheating on me and I found out from like, just like one of her friends just picked up the phone. It was like, dude, you need to know about this.

• 11:39Mark Manson?

  So yeah, that was devastating. That, but probably like, so that was the biggest conscious pain. Biggest unconscious one would probably be my parents divorce, but that's one of those things that you don't, you know, you don't realize till you're like 20, 26 and in therapy and you're like, wow, this really.

• 11:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. It's crazy how powerful our parents' relationship affects us without us even knowing.

• 12:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 12:07Lewis Howes?

  Things we do say mimic without us even being aware.

• 12:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:12Lewis Howes?

  Even if we don't think we're being like our parents, we usually are.

• 12:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:15Lewis Howes?

  It's just embedded in our brains, I guess, right? And our memory and our psyche, whatever it is. And we repeat, I see myself doing this all the time. I'm like, all the things that I was like, not going to be that way. My dad is, my mom is. And I see like a pattern sometimes of me doing it. I have to stop myself. You're like, who do I want to be?

• 12:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:33Lewis Howes?

  You know, I don't want to be, I want to be like my parents in some ways, but not everywhere.

• 12:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Lewis Howes?

  Everywhere. And how can I reinvent the process of?

• 12:42Lewis Howes?

  A better way, a better experience, a better interaction with people than what I saw and mimicked every, you know, as a child. So I definitely agree with that.

• 12:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:51Lewis Howes?

  Um, you talked about, you went on a, you went on a journey. You've traveled over sixty countries.

• 12:55Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 12:55Lewis Howes?

  You speak three languages. You were in Brazil for a couple of years.

• 12:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 12:59Lewis Howes?

  Met your wife there. What is your language? Spanish?

• 13:01Mark Manson?

  Spanish, but it's really rusty.

• 13:04Lewis Howes?

  So Portuguese, you're better?

• 13:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I'm better at Portuguese now.

• 13:07Lewis Howes?

  And your wife, do you guys speak Portuguese a lot or is she speaking English?

• 13:10Mark Manson?

  Um.

• 13:10Lewis Howes?

  Fluently as well?

• 13:11Mark Manson?

  Oh, she's fluent in English. Um, we, I'd say it's like eighty twenty English Portuguese.

• 13:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:16Mark Manson?

  Um, anything like serious is in English. We flirt in Portuguese.

• 13:21Lewis Howes?

  Oh, really? You're like.

• 13:22Mark Manson?

  We flirt.

• 13:23Lewis Howes?

  Obrigado.

• 13:23Mark Manson?

  Yeah, we, we, very good. We, we flirt and talk shit in Portuguese.

• 13:30Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah, cuz it's nice cuz like you'll be in a situation and it's like, you know, somebody like does something and you wanna say something, but you don't want them to hear. And so we just say it to each other. We're like, wow, can you believe that guy just did that?

• 13:42Lewis Howes?

  Until they start speaking to you in Portuguese, you're like, I can hear you.

• 13:45Mark Manson?

  That's happened a couple.

• 13:46Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Lewis Howes?

  That's embarrassing.

• 13:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah, there was actually the, the funniest one was we were in Brazil once. And, uh, we did like the, the worst Uber driver ever. And, uh, my wife, like she was in a really bad mood and she just like starts talking shit about the Uber driver in English, like, like five minutes.

• 14:05Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 14:06Mark Manson?

  And then we get to the destination, the Uber driver turns around, perfect English, no accent. It's like, have a good night, guys.

• 14:11Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh. One, one star rating.

• 14:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I'm like, oh, this guy hates us so much.

• 14:17Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my goodness. Wow.

• 14:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Lewis Howes?

  Now, why did you decide to travel to, you know, all these different countries and explore the world?

• 14:25Mark Manson?

  Um, I read, uh, so I read Tim Ferriss's book back in oh eight, I guess.

• 14:32Lewis Howes?

  Me too.

• 14:32Mark Manson?

  Um, you know, completely blew my mind, opened everything. Um, and I, I always had kind of a dream of like, doing like an around the world trip or something. Um, and it was when I, when I read that book. You know, around the same time I uh had a crappy day job and I wasn't happy with it and I was young and I knew I wanted to do something on my own. Um, and I read four hour work week and it was like two birds with one stone. It's like, whoa, I can like.

• 15:00Lewis Howes?

  Travel and build a business.

• 15:01Mark Manson?

  And build a business at the same time. And so, yeah, I did that. Um, initially, I was just gonna do it for a couple of years, but I kinda got hooked.

• 15:08Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 15:08Mark Manson?

  And just kept going and going and going. Yeah.

• 15:11Lewis Howes?

  And how were you able to make money as you were traveling and fund this experience for you?

• 15:15Mark Manson?

  Um, initially, I started with, I did kinda like direct marketing stuff. So a lot of like affiliate sales and.

• 15:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:23Mark Manson?

  Um, I was one of those obnoxious guy, like spammy stuff and.

• 15:28Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 15:28Mark Manson?

  And um, I actually started blogging. It was, cause back then, back in those days, it was like, uh, everything was about like blogging was like the big new thing.

• 15:38Lewis Howes?

  Huge.

• 15:38Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 15:39Lewis Howes?

  Two thousand eight, two thousand nine.

• 15:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's like if you, if you're starting an inner business, you gotta have a blog. Cause that's like, that's how you get traffic to come in and everything. So I started, I started a blog. Um, just like drive traffic to, to some of my sites and, and it, it started to take off.

• 15:54Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 15:54Mark Manson?

  And um, yeah, it turned like I discovered, it took about two years. I discovered I was a pretty crappy marketer. Like, I don't sell stuff very well. Uh, and I was always broke and like struggling and, and trying to find like the next thing that would pay the bills. And then, um, and then when I started writing, like things got a lot more steady and. And consistent. So, um, yeah, I just stuck with the writing.

• 16:16Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy, man. Now you get what? Two million uh visitors a month or is it more now from the book, I'm assuming?

• 16:21Mark Manson?

  Well, it varies quite a bit. Um.

• 16:25Lewis Howes?

  It's, it's interesting because the blogs, I feel like the traffic is just going down on blogs. Everyone's on social.

• 16:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:30Lewis Howes?

  It's like more and more people aren't clicking on the link to go read a whole article. They'd rather read like a mini article on Facebook or Instagram.

• 16:38Mark Manson?

  I, I feel blogging is in kind of like a recession right now.

• 16:42Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 16:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's, it's across the board. Everybody's traffic's kinda shrinking a little bit. Mine's dropped maybe twenty, twenty-five percent in the last year.

• 16:51Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 16:51Mark Manson?

  Um, but like I know people, it's, it's dropped like fifty percent, you know?

• 16:55Lewis Howes?

  People are struggling, I feel like.

• 16:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:57Lewis Howes?

  If you're not constantly reinventing yourself, like I think it was brilliant that you did this book at this time because it. It brought you even more mainstream credibility.

• 17:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:05Lewis Howes?

  It continues to attract new people to your sphere of your of your audience and people checking out your site now or your social.

• 17:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:12Lewis Howes?

  Which you're never on Instagram, so you need to be more of. But I think it's it's powerful because I think most people aren't willing to reinvent.

• 17:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Lewis Howes?

  You were doing the internet marketing spammy thing for a little bit.

• 17:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:22Lewis Howes?

  If you kept doing that, you would have probably dropped off too.

• 17:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:25Lewis Howes?

  But you found a way to reinvent with blogging.

• 17:27Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:28Lewis Howes?

  And you stuck with that until you realize, oh, let me do the next stage.

• 17:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:31Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 17:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:32Lewis Howes?

  And I think that's always important. Uh, I was kind of in a similar spot. I was starting out in blogging. I was teaching LinkedIn and I was like, yeah, it's kind of dying. And then I did blogging.

• 17:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Lewis Howes?

  The courses and I was like, I felt like podcasting was going to come around. I was like, hopefully, you know.

• 17:47Mark Manson?

  You're in the right space now, man.

• 17:48Lewis Howes?

  It was, it was like a two years before it kind of started getting big when Serial came out and everyone else started to do them. So I was like, thank goodness I started early.

• 17:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 17:57Lewis Howes?

  But um, but it's almost like now there's, you know, over half a million podcasts at least.

• 18:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:02Lewis Howes?

  So it's like, what's the next reinvention?

• 18:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:04Lewis Howes?

  I'm always looking for the next reinvention, so.

• 18:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, you got to. You got, you gotta keep looking ahead and, and yeah, I think looking back at my career, one of the things that I think I did well, um, and I think most people need to do, you know, throughout their career is be very honest at like what you're good at, what you're bad at and and then double down on what you're good at.

• 18:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. So you didn't start doing video after you launched your blog. You were like, I'm great at writing.

• 18:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Lewis Howes?

  It's working. Let me double down.

• 18:31Mark Manson?

  Well, yeah, and and I I tried, I've tried video. I've tried. I even messed around, tried podcasting a couple, few years ago and um, you know, I just, I'm very honest with myself of like, you know, is this something either, do I have a knack for it?

• 18:49Mark Manson?

  Or is this something, is the learning curve something I'm willing to invest? Like, does it make sense? You know, so like, for instance, with podcasting, I messed around with it, did a couple like interviews privately and and played with like concept ideas and as with most things, you know, it's, I, you go into it thinking it's, oh, this could be simple. And then you actually try it and you're like, wow, this is really hard.

• 19:11Lewis Howes?

  A lot of work.

• 19:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah. And so I sat there. I'm like, well, this is gonna be, you know, probably six to 12 month learning curve.

• 19:16Lewis Howes?

  At least.

• 19:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and um.

• 19:18Lewis Howes?

  It could take time to build momentum.

• 19:20Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and is that something that makes sense to invest in right now? Or I could just like promote my book.

• 19:28Mark Manson?

  So, you know, the book won out. So, yeah, it's hard, but it's hard to be like honest with yourself a lot of times. And just be like, yeah, I'm bad at this. I should, I should do, I should do the thing I'm good at.

• 19:43Lewis Howes?

  Right. You talk about being honest with yourself publicly and why it's powerful.

• 19:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Lewis Howes?

  Why do you believe we should be honest with ourselves publicly? And what does that mean?

• 19:51Mark Manson?

  Um, I'm a big proponent of just vulnerability in general. And, and so, yeah. And so that, that applies across the spectrum. So our private relationships, our public relationships, professional relationships, everything. And the thing that, that makes vulnerability so important and so powerful is that it, it creates a transparency and a trust between everybody involved. You know, when, when you're willing to expose your weaknesses or at least be honest about them,

• 20:26Mark Manson?

  it, it helps people know that you're dependable. You know, it's like, okay, this guy, like, I can trust something that comes out of his mouth.

• 20:36Mark Manson?

  If you're, if you're trying to make everything like rosy and sound amazing all, all the time, and maybe fibbing a little bit or covering things up or like avoiding certain topics.

• 20:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 20:46Mark Manson?

  You know, people sense that and, and not only does it kind of prevent that, that trust from building, but it also, you know, it, it, it makes you seem like aloof. I don't know, it, it kind of just interferes with the, the depth of the connection. The connection can never like get beyond a certain depth.

• 21:04Lewis Howes?

  Something's missing if someone's too perfect, you know?

• 21:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:07Lewis Howes?

  Something beneath that, because no one can live that way.

• 21:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah. The example, I, I use an example in my book, I'm like, you know, nobody likes a yes man. And. Yet, like if somebody's following you around, just agreeing with everything you say, you know, within a couple of weeks, you're gonna be like, what is, what does he want? You know, like, what's his angle? He's trying to get something out of me. Um, and, you know, so I, I have a, a chapter, it's called the importance of saying no. And, um, you know, and that's kind of my big point is like, you need to hear no and say no, because then people know you're dependable. They know you're, you're actually like, you know, you have your own identity and, and you're not just like manipulating the situation.

• 21:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I think it's powerful to say no. I say yes a lot to a lot of people.

• 21:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Lewis Howes?

  And then sometimes people just expect me to constantly say yes, and I'm like, no, I can't do something. And then they get mad at me.

• 21:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Lewis Howes?

  Cause they, they have this expectation, I'm supposed to do something for them all the time. And I'm like, I'm constantly giving to so many people.

• 22:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 22:05Lewis Howes?

  I'm constantly like promoting other people. I'm constantly, you know, doing so much that sometimes I gotta focus on my own stuff too.

• 22:11Mark Manson?

  Of course, of course. Well, and, and if you don't, then that will strangle your ability to give.

• 22:17Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 22:18Mark Manson?

  In the future, you know, like if you don't cut out that time for yourself and then nurture yourself, then, then you're not going to be able to.

• 22:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:25Mark Manson?

  To be generous of.

• 22:26Lewis Howes?

  And I think if you say yes to someone when you don't want to, you're gonna resent that person too.

• 22:30Mark Manson?

  Totally.

• 22:31Lewis Howes?

  So say no, so you don't resent people.

• 22:33Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 22:33Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 22:33Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 22:34Lewis Howes?

  Um, you also talk about, this is something I wanted to dive into, cause you say you shouldn't have big dreams, right?

• 22:40Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 22:41Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 22:41Mark Manson?

  Well, did I say shouldn't have big dreams?

• 22:44Lewis Howes?

  I think you talked about big dreams and

• 22:48Lewis Howes?

  how you can't be in the present when you have these big dreams.

• 22:51Mark Manson?

  Hmm, um,

• 22:54Mark Manson?

  trying to think of exactly.

• 22:55Lewis Howes?

  Maybe, maybe I don't have the same. Maybe I'm not thinking clearly on it, but what are your feelings on having big dreams? Should we have them or no?

• 23:03Mark Manson?

  I, I think they're fine. Um, I think dreams, so dreams I would put in the category of they're fine, but they're overrated.

• 23:12Lewis Howes?

  Dreams are overrated.

• 23:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah, um.

• 23:14Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 23:16Mark Manson?

  Because I think a lot of times we, a lot of times we use our, our, our dreams and our fantasies as a way of kind of escaping what we're dealing with right now. And I think the other thing about dreams is it's actually very hard for us to know exactly what we want. Like, I can't tell you how many people I've met over the years that they're like, uh, they're like, I want to run a business, or I've got this amazing idea for a startup, or I want to make a ton of money. And, you know, they have this big dream for themselves and they start working towards it. And it's like, they make themselves, like, it's actually making them miserable. Because the actual process of doing it is not what they enjoy.

• 24:01Mark Manson?

  They enjoy, and, and what, what is actually happening is like, you know, they don't actually enjoy the, the hustle, or, or taking the risk, or, or doing the work. They enjoy what they think the benefit will do to their, themselves, you know? So they're unhappy with a part of themselves, like, oh, if I could just like, have an amazing startup and be worth like $20 million, everything would be great. But it turns out that like, they hate working on it. And, and so it just makes things worse. And so, um, I think dreams are fine, like, it's, it's fun to fantasize. But I think it's, it's also important to just be honest about what dreams are. Is that they're fantasies, they're fun.

• 24:45Mark Manson?

  But a lot of them are motivated, uh, or they can easily be motivated by the wrong reasons. Um, and so I prefer to kind of take more of a present approach of like, okay, let's pay attention to like, how does this feel right now? How does the work make you feel now?

• 25:03Mark Manson?

  How, how does accomplishing this task, like, how, how does that reflect on you? Like, how, how do you feel about yourself after that? Because I think if you pay attention to that, That's actually what makes great things happen in your life is when you're like focusing on the day to day. You know, boom, this makes me feel good. That's what you get good at, you know? Like, I never sat down, you asked me before we started recording, you're like, did you ever think you were gonna be a writer? I didn't, no, I never thought I was gonna be a writer. The way I became a writer was I was doing all this stuff for my websites and I didn't enjoy about seventy percent of it.

• 25:40Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:40Mark Manson?

  And most of the part that I enjoyed or that came, came easily to me that, you know, that, that part of my work that I would sit down. You know, thinking, oh, I'll, I'll spend an hour on a blog post and I look up and it's been like six hours.

• 25:53Lewis Howes?

  You lost yourself in it.

• 25:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah, like that was the writing. And so I didn't even know I like, it was never a plan. It was never like, oh, I'm gonna be a New York Times bestseller in five years. I'm gonna do this and this. And it's like, no, it's just like, writing makes me feel really good. I feel proud of myself. Um, I enjoy the process. Um, and I can't wait to do it again. And so, you know, that's what you just keep hammering on. And at, the greatness is the side effect, you know, it's like if you, if you find that, then the success and, and all the accolades and stuff like that will come naturally. Like it will, it will be the, you know, it'll be the collateral.

• 26:32Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly. I, I, I hear you and I'm excited to talk about this because there are so many people that tell me that they have these big dreams or what they want, but they're unwilling to do the work.

• 26:42Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 26:42Lewis Howes?

  It's too hard to make it happen. They want the end result, but they don't want the ten years of the process it takes to get there. And I have an exercise called the perfect day exercise where I have people say, okay, do you really want this? Walk through what a perfect day would look like for you, where you'd find the most joy, the most happiness.

• 26:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:58Lewis Howes?

  The most fulfillment in a, in, uh, you know, your entire day. Hour by hour, walk me through what does your perfect day look like?

• 27:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Lewis Howes?

  What brings you that joy? So I try to get people in the mindset of, okay, dream like crazy big dreams.

• 27:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:12Lewis Howes?

  But make sure the journey and the process of spending 10 years to make it happen.

• 27:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:17Lewis Howes?

  Is something you love because it may take forever.

• 27:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:19Lewis Howes?

  The bigger the dream, the longer it's gonna take usually.

• 27:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:22Lewis Howes?

  And if you're, if you go through your perfect day exercise and you're actually not excited to work 12 hours a day.

• 27:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 27:28Lewis Howes?

  On something, then it's probably not the dream for you.

• 27:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and it, and it comes back to that honesty with yourself. Like the, the example I use in my book is, you know, for most of my younger life, I wanted to be a musician. And um, I had all these huge dreams and fantasies, you know, about being on stage and rocking out and like, you know, being like having this amazing album and, and um, I mean, I had this dream for like six or eight years, like even after I started my business. Uh, you know, when I started my business, the first couple of years, I was like, oh, I'm gonna do this to like make some money. And then I'm gonna go back and do the music thing, you know? Um, i- in my head, it was, it was all just kind of like a means to the, to the end that was the music.

• 28:10Mark Manson?

  And I got to my, my late twenties, or the second half of my twenties, and I just, I had to be like really honest with myself. Like, cause, cause I, like, I had friends who were back in music school and they were actually doing things. Like they were, their bands were getting signed and they were like doing stu- like doing studio gigs and they were playing shows and, and I was like, wait a second, they're actually like out doing it.

• 28:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, taking action.

• 28:33Mark Manson?

  I've been, I've been.

• 28:34Lewis Howes?

  Talking about it.

• 28:34Mark Manson?

  I've been sitting in my room for the last six years, like saying, you know what I'm gonna do one day? I'm gonna be a big musician on stage. So like, I had to be very honest with myself of like, you know, like,

• 28:45Mark Manson?

  I don't think I actually like this, like, you know, cause if I did, I'd be doing it.

• 28:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:49Mark Manson?

  You know, I think I just like the vision of myself. I, I like, I, I like this fantasy that, you know.

• 28:54Lewis Howes?

  Being on stage, but you don't like practicing for three hours a day.

• 28:56Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 28:57Lewis Howes?

  Play guitar, piano or something.

• 28:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah, or spending all my, my money on equipment and like hauling it to rehearsals and, you know.

• 29:03Lewis Howes?

  Getting seven people to show up for a gig once a month.

• 29:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:05Lewis Howes?

  For like years.

• 29:06Mark Manson?

  Exactly. Like it just, it didn't happen.

• 29:08Lewis Howes?

  No one care about you.

• 29:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah. You know, so it was hard to let that go. But I mean, I think in hindsight, that was, I think I built that dream, that dream was like something that I kind of constructed when I was younger, uh, to get me through some hard times.

• 29:25Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 29:28Mark Manson?

  And once I got older and I was actually committed to to my business and my writing and and other things in my life, I had to let it go. I had to be like, you know, this isn't, this isn't serving me anymore. In fact, it's like, I'm kidding myself.

• 29:43Lewis Howes?

  And your mind space is somewhere else in fantasy land that you're not actually implementing and taking action on as opposed to putting all of your energy and mind space into the current passion or dream that you did have, right?

• 29:54Mark Manson?

  Absolutely.

• 29:55Lewis Howes?

  And we only have so much mind space in a day, I think.

• 29:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 29:58Lewis Howes?

  In our lifetime. And if we're thinking about something else we're not working or acting towards, then we're missing out on what we have in front of us.

• 30:05Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 30:07Lewis Howes?

  You talk about self-improvement and success and how they often occur together. But it doesn't, that doesn't mean they're the same thing.

• 30:16Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 30:16Lewis Howes?

  So why, why do we assume they are?

• 30:20Mark Manson?

  I think,

• 30:23Mark Manson?

  I think because they often occur together, I think a lot of us experience in our own lives, when we have a breakthrough with ourselves, you know, with certain belief or certain pattern in ourselves, or we get over a fear, we see kind of the external success in our lives jump up a little bit. And so we just kind of start assuming that the two are the same thing.

• 30:49Mark Manson?

  Which is just, we do that about a lot of things.

• 30:53Mark Manson?

  But it, but it's not necessarily, I, I think, in a lot of ways, you know, for certain people, it might be a breakthrough in their self, in their, their self-growth might precipitate like less success, you know, maybe they realize that, you know, the 80 hours a week they're working as a lawyer like is, is the thing that's making them miserable. And so the breakthrough means like, giving up that career, or giving up all that money, or giving up the status that comes along with it. You know, you, you get people who, who become very attached to material things. You know, or maybe they, they don't have their, their priorities or their attention in their life like align the way that, that would be more healthy. And, and part of that

• 31:35Mark Manson?

  growth requires them to step down a little bit and step back. And I think this is one area that, you know, it, it gets.

• 31:48Mark Manson?

  In the self-help world, it gets a little, a little dangerous because it's, it's fun to think about, you know, hey, you can have this huge breakthrough and make a million dollars and it's, but a lot of times that big breakthrough requires you letting go, wanting, wanting to make a million dollars. So you get kind of this weird catch 22 thing going on a lot of times. Yeah. What would you say is a thing that you're struggling with the most right now?

• 32:15Mark Manson?

  You know, honestly, this, uh, you know, I'm so proud of how well it's done.

• 32:24Mark Manson?

  Dude, the pressure like. The pressure of what? What's next or what's, you know? It's, you know, we all like to, over the course of our career, I think, and I think everybody's like this, anything you do, you know, the next thing you always want to be improving. Of course. You always want the next thing to be better. Yes. But you're like nine months on the New York Times list, right? So it's like, how do you top that? Yeah. And it's, it's, it's sold, I think it's, I think it's the best selling audio book of all time. Oh, my gosh. Uh, yeah, it sold a million copies and I think eight and a half months. A hardcover? Yeah. Holy cow. Yeah. Congrats, man. That's huge. It's so, yeah, I mean, it's like. That's massive.

• 33:05Mark Manson?

  It, it is massive, but it, it's funny because now I'm, I'm, it's been almost a year and now I'm starting to look at, okay, what's the next project going to be? How can I top this massive hit? Well, in, in my natural inclination, because this has served me for the first 10 years of my career is like, all right, what's the next step? And I'm looking at, and I'm like, you know, let's be honest, you know, the, the, the level of commercial success this book has experienced is something that it's like, it happens maybe two or three times a year and the entire publishing, like, you know, there's maybe two, three books each year that. That do that. That do this. And as an author, the chance of you hitting that twice. Really hard.

• 33:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah. It's like, it's, you know, and so much of the book's success is probably also out of my control.

• 33:53Mark Manson?

  I mean, it's a great title. It's a great cover. It's a great timing of the, of the world. It's like. Yeah. But all, yeah, a lot of it is the timing. Um, a lot of it is just kind of like where we are as a culture right now. Um, it's so, yeah, it's, it's. I've had to be honest with myself that like, you know, it markets very unlikely this is gonna happen twice. And that's, and then on top of that, I've got, you know, publishers, my agent, a bunch of other people who want to do stuff with me and they're like, alright, you know, you did this.

• 34:24Lewis Howes?

  Let's do something bigger.

• 34:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah, let's, let's match it or like, hey, this guy just sold this many books for Harper. Like, let's bring him in to do this with us and, you know, maybe our thing will blow up and.

• 34:33Lewis Howes?

  It's really hard.

• 34:34Mark Manson?

  It's like the, the pressure is real, man. And so I've been kinda, the last few months.

• 34:39Lewis Howes?

  You gotta, you gotta listen to your own book, you know?

• 34:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:41Lewis Howes?

  Don't give a.

• 34:42Mark Manson?

  I know, it's.

• 34:43Lewis Howes?

  It's so hard, man. Cause then you're like, well, I'm not doing as good.

• 34:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Lewis Howes?

  Maybe I'm not as worthy or I'm not smart anymore if it's not doing as well, right?

• 34:51Mark Manson?

  Exactly. So there's all these kinda like assumptions or, you know, I guess operating principles I've had for years now in my career. And I'm having to like, tear them out of myself, you know, kinda be like, hey dude, let go of that. Like, that's not serving you anymore. And it's been hard. It's, it's, I've, for a couple of months now, I've kinda been playing mind games with myself. You know, just trying to get myself in the right headspace of like, you know, hey, it's alright if, you know, the next book doesn't have to be like this one, or my next project doesn't have to like,

• 35:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Mark Manson?

  match this and, and being okay with that.

• 35:29Lewis Howes?

  I mean, like, yeah, I made a million copies in nine months. I think that's more than what Tim did for Four Hour Work Week.

• 35:35Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I have no idea.

• 35:36Lewis Howes?

  I think it took him years to get that.

• 35:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's.

• 35:39Lewis Howes?

  It's massive.

• 35:39Mark Manson?

  It's insane.

• 35:40Lewis Howes?

  What, and what about the audiobook? Is there more, how many, too many downloads there? Or is that all encompassing all books?

• 35:46Mark Manson?

  Um, I don't know the exact number with the audiobook, but, um, but yeah, the audible people told us, uh, back in the spring, they said it's the most downloaded book on the, like.

• 35:59Lewis Howes?

  Crazy dude.

• 36:00Mark Manson?

  And the entire audible site, yeah, which is like.

• 36:02Lewis Howes?

  Some nice royalty checks off of those right there. I know what that's like. Dude, this is amazing. I remember when I interviewed Liz Gilbert, she had mentioned similar, cause Eat, Pray, Love was like this massive, I think it was like 10 million sales or something and it was just, it turned into a movie with, um, what's her name?

• 36:19Mark Manson?

  Julia Roberts.

• 36:20Lewis Howes?

  Julia Roberts. And she was like, I had Julia Roberts playing me and it was just everywhere for years. And she was like, there was no way I was gonna be able to create something that, that good.

• 36:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:29Lewis Howes?

  Like, I had to kinda come to my senses that. This might be the the most popular piece of work I ever do.

• 36:35Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Lewis Howes?

  Type of feeling, you know, maybe something.

• 36:38Mark Manson?

  Which is hard.

• 36:39Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 36:40Mark Manson?

  You always want to think your best thing's ahead of you and and and and suddenly when you start thinking that it might not be. That all that starts messing with your motivation. It starts messing with your identity. It starts messing like it's it's a mind. And it's funny you mentioned her because she did a TED Talk about that. I've watched that TED Talk like three times this summer like.

• 37:00Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 37:01Mark Manson?

  Yeah, because it's um, because like I'm a fan of hers. Like she's great and and I was talking to a friend and and she's like, yeah, Liz Gilbert did a TED Talk about like her life after Eat, Pray, Love and how she couldn't like she couldn't write for like a year afterwards because it was just this insane thing that she thought she had to live up to. And so, yeah, I watched that talk a couple of times and yeah, it's real like it's it's hard. It's it's it messes with your head. It really does.

• 37:29Lewis Howes?

  And then all the people who are not or struggling right now.

• 37:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah, they're all boo hoo.

• 37:34Lewis Howes?

  You sold a million copies of your book. Get over it.

• 37:36Mark Manson?

  So hard, man. Well, that that's the other funny thing, too. And I talk about this a little bit in my book, you know, I I I point out, I'm like, you know, problems never go away. You know, like Warren Buffett still has money problems. You know, he still probably stresses out at night and and worries about things. But nobody's crying a tear for Warren Buffett. And you know, that's that's kind of the weird thing with success sometimes is is success, as amazing as it is, and and and as much as it can transform your life, it brings its own stresses with it. You know, it's it's like the Biggie song, more money, more problems. Like it's it brings its own set of problems with it.

• 38:18Mark Manson?

  But the thing is, is when you success problems, like not many people are going to sympathize with that, you know, like no, not many people are sitting around going, man, poor Warren Buffett like lost two billion on that deal. Like, man, that must be really hard for like, nobody's saying that. You know, like it's there's no sympathy for that.

• 38:38Lewis Howes?

  The internal challenges that we face as human beings, no matter what happens, the more successful we come, we still have internal battles, challenges, stresses.

• 38:49Lewis Howes?

  With all the money in the world, you know, all the friends in the world, all the power, there's still gonna be stress. If we don't know how to deal with our inner battles.

• 38:56Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 38:57Lewis Howes?

  Then we're gonna be overwhelmed.

• 38:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 38:59Lewis Howes?

  And we're gonna suffer.

• 38:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Lewis Howes?

  So it's a constant awareness of letting things go, of working on ourselves, I think, in a positive way where we can enjoy the process and where we're at, no matter what's happening in life.

• 39:10Mark Manson?

  It's it it and it's a never ending thing. It's um, you know, another thing I say is is uh, you know,

• 39:19Mark Manson?

  growth is not getting rid of problems, it's simply getting better problems. You know, you you never get to this point where you don't have problems in your life. You just trade in your problems for slightly better problems. Like, that's basically what growth is.

• 39:33Lewis Howes?

  You men you mentioned uh, in the book about, you know, if you're, the problem is you're overweight or you're not healthy. And then you go get a gym membership and you have to wake up early and you're like sweaty all the time and you're like, you have a new problem.

• 39:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:46Lewis Howes?

  Right? It's like.

• 39:47Mark Manson?

  But it's a better one.

• 39:48Lewis Howes?

  But it's a better one. You're getting healthy, but you have this other challenge. Well, I have to get up earlier and I have to bring my clothes so I can shower at the gym and get to work on time or whatever it is. So it's like a different set of problems and challenges. To get a better result, though.

• 39:59Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 40:00Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 40:00Mark Manson?

  Of course.

• 40:01Lewis Howes?

  What uh, how do we eliminate problems in our life then? Or can we not?

• 40:04Mark Manson?

  I I don't think you can. I I don't think there's a such a thing as a problem for your free life. And I think I don't think we would want to eliminate pro- cause I I I make the argument that it's that process of solving our problems or overcoming our problems. That's what that's like the engine that generates happiness.

• 40:23Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 40:24Mark Manson?

  Um, and so when you actually remove problems, it it creates its own special kind of misery. You know, like if you imagine like the rich housewife who just sits at the pool all day, like it or or the people, the person who watches TV 10 hours a day, like it's there's a lack of problems also creates uh, you know, it prevents that engine of happiness because like you need pro- like the the problems. You you need the problems because that's what generates the meaning. And if you don't have the meaning, then you know, everything just feels pointless. And you're like, well, why do anything? Like, I'll just go sit at the pool.

• 41:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 41:05Mark Manson?

  And so you need that.

• 41:08Mark Manson?

  So you need that that meaning. You know, it it comes back to that, what I was saying about the stories that we wrap around our positive and negative experiences. You know, like that meaning is what creates those those powerful stories that that pushes us us forward and.

• 41:20Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 41:21Mark Manson?

  You know, makes our makes us feel like our life is well lived.

• 41:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I mean, if you have a trust fund and you don't, you know, make meaning with your life, you just live off the money of someone else.

• 41:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 41:31Lewis Howes?

  Doesn't feel like you've done anything.

• 41:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 41:33Lewis Howes?

  You haven't accomplished anything, you haven't mattered in the world, you haven't contributed in any positive way, right?

• 41:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 41:38Lewis Howes?

  Contribution is probably one of the most important things for us.

• 41:40Mark Manson?

  Absolutely.

• 41:41Lewis Howes?

  Contributing to our family, our community, or in a bigger way, having that contribution is powerful.

• 41:46Mark Manson?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 41:47Lewis Howes?

  And so there there are a lot of miserable housewives, right? Who are who aren't.

• 41:51Mark Manson?

  And trust fund kids.

• 41:52Lewis Howes?

  Right, trust fund kids who aren't choosing to use their their intelligence, their talents to make an impact.

• 42:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 42:01Lewis Howes?

  And I think it's important to have that awareness that we should be trying to make an impact the best way we can.

• 42:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 42:09Lewis Howes?

  Talk about the feedback loop from loop from hell. How do we get it out of it? How do we get into it and how do we get out of it?

• 42:15Mark Manson?

  So the feedback loop from hell is.

• 42:20Mark Manson?

  It is a thing I talk about in the beginning of my book where we judge our emotions. So, you know, a lot of us. And I know I was raised this way, and I think a lot of people are raised this way. You know, I was raised that like certain emotions, they're inappropriate, or they're just bad.

• 42:36Lewis Howes?

  Like what?

• 42:37Mark Manson?

  Like anger, you know, you you don't get angry, or you don't show it. Or you don't, you know, don't be sad. Like, how many times has like a well intentioned friend or family member be like, don't be sad? No, no, no, just don't be sad. And so I think what the fact this kind of has on us is that we judge these negative emotions. So we decide that being sad is a bad thing, or being angry is a bad thing, or, you know, being feeling guilty is a bad thing. And then a funny thing happens because then we start feeling sad about the fact that we feel sad. Or we start feeling guilty that we feel guilty all the time.

• 43:11Lewis Howes?

  Or embarrassed or whatever.

• 43:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah, or we feel angry that we're angry or we're anxious that we feel anxious all the time. And like, and then it just kind of like keeps spiraling. We're like, God, what's wrong with me? I'm like, I'm always anxious and it just keeps going and going and going. And so I call this the feedback loop from hell. And the way you short circuit it, um, is you stop giving a [BLEEP]. Is you stop, you stop judging the emotion, you know, sad, like the way, the only way you can get out of it is sadness needs to be okay. Anger needs to be okay. Uh, anxiety needs to be okay. You know, the question isn't, uh, it's not necessarily the emotion that is good or bad. It's what you do about it. Um, it's how you react to it. It's the meaning, you know, you wallpaper around it.

• 43:56Mark Manson?

  Because all these emotions, again, coming back to like the whole pain thing, like all these emotions, they exist for a reason. Like they keep us healthy, like they're, they are natural responses. If somebody dies, be sad, like you're supposed to be sad. Like that is part of your, your, your brain and your psychology's way of like processing it, digesting it. And, um, you know, the more you judge or try to like shut those emotions out, like the, just the worse it becomes.

• 44:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What about self-talk?

• 44:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 44:26Lewis Howes?

  What do you think about self-talk? Do you think it's important to have like a positive mindset and to think positive things throughout the day? Or do you think it's irrelevant to feeling happiness, joy and making an impact?

• 44:40Mark Manson?

  I think self-talk can definitely have an effect for people, both positive and negative. Like I imagine if you're always telling yourself good things, you probably feel better.

• 44:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 44:50Mark Manson?

  Um, and if you're always telling yourself bad things, you'll probably feel crappy. Um, I definitely think that is true. Um. I don't necessarily, you know, again,

• 45:03Mark Manson?

  my big focus is is on meaning. It's, you know, I I kinda in the beginning of the book, I'm like, you know what? Who cares whether we feel good or bad? Let's talk about like the meaning or the value that like underlies everything.

• 45:18Mark Manson?

  And I think self-talk is one of those things you can you can you can get yourself into trouble through positive self-talk, just as much as you can through negative. Uh, you know, what it comes down to is like, how realistic are you being? And like, what is? What is the quality of the meaning that you're putting on this? Um, because I could have, I could walk around being like, I am the most badass mother in all of LA, you know, like that girl wants me, that guy wants to be me like, you know, I could have positive self-talk all day, but that's probably not gonna have a very healthy effect. You know, if that's what I'm saying, you know, so it's the character of the self-talk

• 45:57Mark Manson?

  is what I think matters. And I think that gets lost a lot. Um, or it's it's something, it's more difficult to talk about that.

• 46:06Mark Manson?

  Because I think so many people, they they just wanna, they want that quick hit of like, make me feel good. You know, like, tell me, tell me something to tell myself to make me feel good. And it's like, you can do that, but like, you really gotta pay attention to, you know, what what is, what's the meaning and and what's the identity you're building for yourself when you do that?

• 46:26Lewis Howes?

  What about belief? How does someone build belief in themselves then in order to create and take action on, you know, something like this? Cause I'm assuming you can't write a book this powerful and inspirational and meaningful if you don't believe in yourself. So how do you, how do you create belief in yourself?

• 46:44Mark Manson?

  I've got a, I've got a pretty backwards approach to this. It's probably gonna be be the opposite of of you or or most people you have on here.

• 46:54Mark Manson?

  Which is, I I don't really, I kinda just, I don't, it's none of my business whether I'm a good author or not. I try not to think about it.

• 47:05Mark Manson?

  Because again, what I notice is, If if I get let in the negative self-talk, that will hinder me because I start thinking like, well, I'm like, I'm bad at this and I'm an idiot and I can't do this. And but if I if I start wandering off in the positive self-talk, like, oh, I'm the man, like, everything I write is gold, you know? That also adds pressure and starts and like, that's kind of what I was talking about, like, the problem with like, I don't like thinking I'm great at something. I know I know we're on the school greatness, but like, but like that, that also it puts pressure on because now that's something you have to live up to. And I just try to let go of all of that.

• 47:48Mark Manson?

  I just try to say, I don't know if I'm good or not. Um, I don't really care. I have these things that I that I believe are very important for myself and for others. And I just try to focus on that.

• 48:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 48:03Mark Manson?

  You know, I kind of had an argument recently with my publisher about my next book. Um, you know, like they were, they had like, they had.

• 48:10Lewis Howes?

  Pushing, they're like, this is what we want.

• 48:12Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's it's like they're they're like that girlfriend or boyfriend that's like already planned, like your next six vacations by like the third date. Um, like that, that was like happening with the next book and I I kind of freaked out. I'm like, look, this is not helping. Um, I appreciate the amount of support you're giving me, but like, this is just making it worse. Like this is, you know, if every time I get an email like, oh, Harper's like spending this and they're assigning this, these many people your sales team like, and then I sit there and I and like, I go to like, right? I'm like, man.

• 48:46Lewis Howes?

  Too much pressure.

• 48:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I'm like, can we just get back to like, like, let me just focus on the ideas, you know? I I don't want to think about, you know, all all that sort of stuff. I I don't want to define myself.

• 48:59Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 48:59Mark Manson?

  Um, by those sorts of things because one whenever I start to, you know, like that, it starts killing my creativity.

• 49:10Mark Manson?

  So yeah, I I just try to let go of that.

• 49:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:12Mark Manson?

  Um, I've I've actually, I've got a section in the book called jokingly called Kill Yourself. Which is where I I basically tell people to kind of let go of these narratives of them. Like, you don't know how good like the the funny thing about being good or bad at something. It it's all about where you're standing, you know, like, you know, somebody could be watching this and they'd be like, man, Lewis Howes, he's killing it. You know, and it's like from their perspective, like the the yardstick that you're they're using. They can say that, but then all you have to do is go get a different yardstick.

• 49:45Lewis Howes?

  Go like a Warren Buffett and he's like.

• 49:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah, or like Howard Stern or something. And it's like, oh, Lewis Howes, yeah, whatever, man. Like, so it's it it it's all arbitrary. It's all we're it's all invented. And um, and so I try to just like, let go of that and and and get back to like, okay, what is something that's like valuable? That I can contribute, like you were saying, you know, like what's an idea that I think is important, can change lives, can change my life? Write that and then, you know, let everybody else decide whether I'm good or not.

• 50:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:17Mark Manson?

  No, I don't know. It's none of my business.

• 50:19Lewis Howes?

  How do how does um, so what are you, what is your vision next? Because, you know, you listened to Liz Gilbert's TED Talk a bunch of times. Are you working on new ideas or are you kind of like, let me just be in the present and enjoy the moment?

• 50:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Lewis Howes?

  For the year or two that it's just gonna ride and then.

• 50:34Mark Manson?

  Man, I wish I could do that.

• 50:38Mark Manson?

  I wish I could do that. I wish I could just like.

• 50:40Lewis Howes?

  I mean, you're probably getting a big advance offers for the next book.

• 50:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:43Lewis Howes?

  Cause now you can kind of demand it and say, you know, write the seven figure checks.

• 50:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I mean, the money, listen, the money is great. No complaints. Um, you know, uh, I'm playing with ideas for the next book. Uh, I'm kind of exploring new things. Um, I kind of made the the the mistake I made this year was I got a little excited. You know, all that stuff you just said about big advance checks and all the promotion and everything. I got a little bit excited at the beginning of the year and I was like, yeah, I got this idea. Let's go, you know? And what I discovered a few months later was like.

• 51:18Mark Manson?

  I I kind of I kind of put myself in a bind because what I discovered is like or what I remembered is a big part of my creative process is coming up with like three or four bad ideas before I get to the good one. And so I got a few months in and I'm like, oh, wait, I think this is actually a bad idea like I want to toss the whole. You know, I want to basically start over from scratch.

• 51:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 51:40Mark Manson?

  Um, and so that was kind of part of the, you know, telling my publisher like, dude, back off. Like, I need some time. I need some time to just suck for a while like. You know, like that's, that's in, I think that's an important part of any creative process. You need to be able to fail without repercussions. You know, I told my editor, I'm like, look, like if I want to like delete a chapter or like rewrite an entire section, like I don't want to feel like I can't do that because I think it's important to feel like you can do that.

• 52:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And get back to doing what you do best, which is writing articles, doing research, you know, sharing ideas, see what sticks and idea sticks online and it shares by everyone. You're like, okay, maybe I can lean into this a little more, write a few more articles on it. Oh, now I've got the basis of my book.

• 52:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 52:25Lewis Howes?

  Have you been right? I see you've been sharing a lot of the archives. For the last few months.

• 52:31Mark Manson?

  Oh, man, called out.

• 52:33Lewis Howes?

  You're always like from the archives, goodie but oldie. Still relevant. I mean, it's all evergreens. It's not like it's timely or some.

• 52:41Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 52:42Lewis Howes?

  You know, it needs to be at a certain time, but um, um, got to get that traffic, you know?

• 52:46Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I know.

• 52:47Lewis Howes?

  Are you writing new content or new articles?

• 52:49Mark Manson?

  So it's funny you bring that up. I I've kind of now that I've gotten all that stuff resolved. You know, this past few weeks, um, I have been going back. I've been spending the past two weeks just like just doing blog content and I am doing exactly what you're saying like, all right.

• 53:05Lewis Howes?

  Back to basics, man.

• 53:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I've got a handful of ideas. I think they're pretty cool. Going to throw them up as our articles, see what happens, see if it gets people talking, if people are really into it. Um, so yeah, there's going to be a lot more blog and online content coming over the next few months.

• 53:21Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 53:21Mark Manson?

  Um, which I feel really good about. I feel, I feel like everything is kind of balance is being restored to the force.

• 53:28Lewis Howes?

  Sure. Yeah, that's good. Removing the pressure from the publishers, agents and all this.

• 53:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's been, it's been a wild experience, both, you know, on both sides, like it's just it's surreal, like it's

• 53:40Lewis Howes?

  Amazing.

• 53:40Mark Manson?

  Some, some, like the good things that happen, it's completely surreal and it's just. scrambles your brain and then, you know, and then two weeks later, it's like pressure you've never felt before. The publisher is like, you know, we're doing this and this, this is like, whoa, timeout.

• 53:56Lewis Howes?

  What's been the craziest experience you've had since it came out?

• 54:00Mark Manson?

  Um.

• 54:02Mark Manson?

  Well, apparently Chris Hemsworth is a big fan of it.

• 54:05Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, I think I saw him, you posted a photo on Instagram of him holding it, I think, or?

• 54:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah, so he posted it and it was completely unprovoked. He posted it on Instagram and Facebook. Uh, and he wrote this like long thing. I mean, it was like, he loved it. I mean, he was just gushing about it. And I was like, that's crazy. Like, how does that happen?

• 54:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:27Mark Manson?

  You know, um, so that's, that's been pretty awesome. Um. Getting stopped on the street.

• 54:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:34Mark Manson?

  The first few times was like.

• 54:36Lewis Howes?

  Whoa.

• 54:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah, weird. Yeah.

• 54:38Lewis Howes?

  Really weird.

• 54:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah, um, weird stuff. Like my dad was walking around with the book and, and somebody's like he in a restaurant, like somebody like came up to him.

• 54:48Lewis Howes?

  I love that book.

• 54:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and my dad's like, my son wrote it. And the guy's like, yeah, whatever.

• 54:53Lewis Howes?

  That's hilarious. Wow.

• 54:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah, so it's.

• 54:56Lewis Howes?

  I'm sure you got a ton of big press and features and all these different places, right?

• 55:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I think the F word scared people off. Yeah, so it's been hit and miss in that, in that arena. Um, which is weird.

• 55:09Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 55:09Mark Manson?

  You would think they would be like jumping on the bandwagon, but.

• 55:12Lewis Howes?

  Controversial.

• 55:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 55:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:14Mark Manson?

  Um, it's funny, there was, the only time it appeared, like it was mentioned in New York Times, it was basically this old guy complaining about how many books have the F word in the title these days.

• 55:25Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 55:26Mark Manson?

  And I was like, seriously? This is, this is what the Times is writing?

• 55:32Lewis Howes?

  But it sounds like it's been an amazing journey.

• 55:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah, man.

• 55:35Lewis Howes?

  Couple final questions for you.

• 55:36Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 55:37Lewis Howes?

  Um, talk to me about, can anyone do anything great?

• 55:42Mark Manson?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:42Lewis Howes?

  Or meaningful from a victim mentality, or as a victim mentality, the quickest way to die?

• 55:51Mark Manson?

  I think, uh, I think of victimhood mentality. I think by definition, yeah, you can't really, because I think once you adopt the victim mentality, you're basically deciding you're powerless. You're saying like, this thing is happening to me and there's nothing I can do about it. Like, to me, that's the definition of a victimhood mentality, like deciding you're powerless.

• 56:14Mark Manson?

  And so, yeah, I think it's, it's,

• 56:18Mark Manson?

  it's basically impossible. I think the first step to accomplishing anything, big or small, whatever,

• 56:26Mark Manson?

  is acknowledging that you are in control, that you get to decide, that you, there is this, even if it's the smallest thing, you know, I can do this. I can decide to work on this.

• 56:40Mark Manson?

  And it's hard because that, that requires taking on responsibility, you know, being like, okay, like this is my thing now, like I, I have to do this. I think it's easier and it kind of worries me because I, I, I think our culture is getting lulled into this complacency of just being like, oh, all this horrible stuff's happening and, but it's not my fault, you know?

• 57:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:02Mark Manson?

  So I'm just gonna complain about it. It's like,

• 57:04Lewis Howes?

  And do nothing.

• 57:05Mark Manson?

  Yeah. And it's, it's like, no, you gotta take responsibility, get out there, do something.

• 57:09Lewis Howes?

  Take ownership, absolutely. Yeah, I agree. I think there's a lot of people who are living in that victim mentality. Maybe not in all areas of their life, but in some area of their life. And they're like, well, there's just nothing I can do.

• 57:19Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:19Lewis Howes?

  I don't have the time and all the energy,

• 57:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Lewis Howes?

  resources. It's like, well, you're not gonna be able to do anything if you think that way.

• 57:25Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Yeah, totally.

• 57:27Lewis Howes?

  But if you can create it and say, I do have the time, let me make it.

• 57:30Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Lewis Howes?

  I do have the resources, let me start asking people, you know, whatever it may be.

• 57:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Well, and, and there are people that something terrible legitimately happens to them, you know? And, and

• 57:40Lewis Howes?

  All of us, something terrible happens.

• 57:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Like something, i- i- it's, everybody, we all suffer tragedy and trauma at some point. But, and that maybe, you know, and you, yes, you may be a victim, like in that moment, when that thing is happening. But, you know, a day later, a week later, a year later, 10 years later, like at some point, you have to be like, hey, it happened, but like, what am I going to do now?

• 58:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:05Mark Manson?

  You know, what am I gonna do about it?

• 58:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What would you say is your biggest fear moving forward?

• 58:13Mark Manson?

  Just flopping at whatever I do next. Totally.

• 58:16Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 58:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it's um.

• 58:20Mark Manson?

  You know, there's a funny thing and I'm sure you experienced this too, like any, anything entrepreneurial that you do, you always have this irrational fear that like, it's gonna be over. Like then, like, you know, like what, what, like, whatever the next thing is gonna be, it's just like, it's gonna crash and burn and, you know, whatever. It's, it's all gonna be over. It's like, oh, this was just a fad, or I got lucky, or I was in the right place at the right time. And, and there's always, like, every entrepreneur I know, has that kind of like lingering doubt in the back of their mind.

• 58:52Mark Manson?

  And it's funny, because it just doesn't, doesn't go away. Like, my, my dad, he, he started a plastics business back in the 60s.

• 59:01Mark Manson?

  And he's still going now. He's, he just turned 70.

• 59:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 59:05Mark Manson?

  And I talked to him once and, and he's like, he's like, I've been doing this almost 50 years. And he's like, I'm still terrified, like, I'm afraid our biggest accounts are, are gonna leave us. I, I'm terrified of a lawsuit. There's a competitor could open up any day and do our formulas better. Like,

• 59:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 59:22Mark Manson?

  He's still like, yeah, it could all be over next year, you know, like, but I think a little bit of that anxiety is, is, is useful.

• 59:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 59:29Mark Manson?

  It keeps you, keeps you on your toes.

• 59:32Lewis Howes?

  I feel like the way you will fail, or have a failure, or not as good a success the next time, is if you care too much about what everyone thinks.

• 59:41Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 59:42Lewis Howes?

  If you literally like, give a

• 59:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 59:45Lewis Howes?

  And try to be like, I'm gonna write it in a way that like, pleases everyone.

• 59:48Mark Manson?

  Exactly.

• 59:48Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to being like, no, this is what I believe. This is my counterintuitive feelings on this specific topic.

• 59:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 59:55Lewis Howes?

  Here's why, and you back it up.

• 59:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 59:56Lewis Howes?

  I think if you were like, well, I don't care if anyone likes this.

• 59:59Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 1:00:00Lewis Howes?

  But here's what's worked for me.

• 1:00:01Mark Manson?

  Yep.

• 1:00:02Lewis Howes?

  And here's what's worked for other people. And I wanna write it in that style. I think it'll do well.

• 1:00:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Lewis Howes?

  So, the, the soul art of not giving a F about, you know, relationships, or money, or whatever it is. I don't know, but something like that, yeah. Or the counterintuitive approach to making money, you know, whatever it may be. So.

• 1:00:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Lewis Howes?

  Give me credit for that next idea.

• 1:00:21Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Royalty check.

• 1:00:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:00:25Lewis Howes?

  Is there anything that you, that you wish people would ask you that they don't ask?

• 1:00:31Mark Manson?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:34Mark Manson?

  It's a really good question.

• 1:00:37Mark Manson?

  It's one of those questions too, I feel like there is something.

• 1:00:42Mark Manson?

  I can't, like it's, I've probably done other interviews where I'm like, why isn't this guy asking this? But like now that I'm put on the spot, I can't think of it.

• 1:00:49Lewis Howes?

  Or is there anything that you really wish you got to share or talk about that you don't reveal? I know you talk a lot about your vulnerabilities, but is there anything that you feel like? You wish people knew about you more?

• 1:01:03Mark Manson?

  Yeah, I don't know. I'm kind of an open book.

• 1:01:08Mark Manson?

  I will say, like, I'm genuinely excited about your book. I'm not just, I'm not just plugging you because I'm on your show. Like, I really am. I was telling you before the show, like, I was, I took a stab at writing a book like this, like five years ago, because I come from, you know, I got my, my roots are men's dating advice, basically. And, um, you know, so I ran like a men's dating advice site for a number of years and, and I worked with a lot of clients. I worked with a lot of men who were struggling. I mean, they came to me because they were struggling in their, with their relationships, but you know, a lot of times they're also struggling professionally and all these other ways and, and, doing all the research back then, like I came to a lot of the same conclusions that you do and,

• 1:01:52Lewis Howes?

  It's a scary topic.

• 1:01:54Mark Manson?

  It is, man.

• 1:01:54Lewis Howes?

  It's super vulnerable.

• 1:01:55Mark Manson?

  It is.

• 1:01:56Lewis Howes?

  Because I kind of reveal my, all my weaknesses and every aspect of being a man.

• 1:02:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:01Lewis Howes?

  For my whole life.

• 1:02:02Mark Manson?

  But, you know, I'm, I'm glad you, like, you're the right one to do it. Because like, the reason I gave it up, so I started it and, you know, I had a lot of very similar conclusions and, and a lot of the similar points. But it was, I felt weird because I was coming from, like, my big mask, as you would say, like, my big thing, my big insecurity as a man was always around, like, like I was the, I was like the party playboy. You know, like, I was out drinking all the time. I was chasing girls all the time.

• 1:02:36Mark Manson?

  And that was my way of like overcompensating, like proving myself all the time and. So whatever I was gonna write was gonna be rooted in that and unfortunately like it's still just really like not socially acceptable, you know, and it's just not as like, you know, you coming from like an athletics background, coming from a business background, like those are much more, you know, and saying like, hey, like this is an issue that men deal with, like this is something that I dealt with, you know, when I was writing and it was like, hey, I spent like five years drinking and just banging girls and let me tell you, it sucks, you know, it just doesn't, it didn't sound good and it wasn't something I wanted to like,

• 1:03:22Mark Manson?

  it didn't feel like something that was gonna like really resonate with a lot of men or like get the point across.

• 1:03:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Well, yeah, Tucker Maxx kind of did that with his books, but it was more of like him bragging about it, which did well. That's what sold it so well, right?

• 1:03:39Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:39Lewis Howes?

  And then when he kind of stopped bragging about it, it didn't do as well, you know?

• 1:03:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, there's still a judgment there. There's still like, you know, oh, he's a sleaze bag, you know, like you can't, how seriously can we take him? And I didn't really want to invite that into my career, but I also just felt like it wasn't gonna be as powerful. Like I, I think, I think what's gonna make yours more powerful is, you know, the, the stuff around, you know, because what you excelled in, the athletics and everything, like that is like, that's the mainstream pressure that's put on boys.

• 1:04:18Lewis Howes?

  All the kids who are athletes who grew up and feeling that they couldn't like show their emotion, they had to like be a man at an early age, they couldn't be a pussy or whatever it is, you had to like just not feel pain, all these different things that hold us back from showing emotion, releasing certain things that allow us to be vulnerable, allow us to connect with other human beings, that create more anger and resentment inside of us for a long term. That we're unable to express it in a loving way.

• 1:04:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Lewis Howes?

  Or in a, a, a safe way.

• 1:04:50Mark Manson?

  A healthy way, yeah.

• 1:04:51Lewis Howes?

  Healthy way.

• 1:04:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:52Lewis Howes?

  We express it through fighting, through screaming, through punching walls and thinking that's like the manly thing you're supposed to do.

• 1:04:59Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 1:04:59Lewis Howes?

  And I think, I appreciate you saying that I'm the right one to talk about it. I just feel like a lot of guys could relate to someone who looks like me, who's, who's been through experiences like me.

• 1:05:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Lewis Howes?

  As a jock looking dude, you know, who played a ton of sports.

• 1:05:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Lewis Howes?

  Who's, you know, built businesses and things like that. I think hopefully I'm going to be able to resonate to a lot of men.

• 1:05:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Lewis Howes?

  That would, would never listen to an Oprah, a Brene Brown, a Deepak Chopra.

• 1:05:28Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:28Lewis Howes?

  Um, so hopeful, hopefully.

• 1:05:31Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Lewis Howes?

  You know, I have no idea. I appreciate you endorsing it because uh, I'm excited to get it out there. I actually think a lot of women are gonna buy it, like tons of women are gonna buy it.

• 1:05:40Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Well, actually, so I, I self-published, uh, so my, my dating advice book, it's called Models To Attract Women Through Honesty. And, uh, one of the things, uh, like one of the biggest, I guess, like things that, that, I guess one of the things that makes me feel the best about it is I get emails all the time from women who are like, I bought this for my brother. I bought this for my husband. I bought this for my son.

• 1:06:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Mark Manson?

  Um, because like this, like he's having trouble, you know, he's having relationship problems or he's having trouble meeting women and like I, there's a lot of scummy stuff out there.

• 1:06:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:16Mark Manson?

  But it's like a woman reads it and she's like, yeah, this is what the guy I love or I care about like should, should be reading.

• 1:06:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Mark Manson?

  Yeah. So you'll probably get a lot of that too.

• 1:06:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we'll see.

• 1:06:25Mark Manson?

  Which is great.

• 1:06:26Lewis Howes?

  Who knows how to do. Did you have an idea that this was gonna sell a million copies and do this?

• 1:06:30Mark Manson?

  No, absolutely not.

• 1:06:32Lewis Howes?

  We have no idea. It could be massive. It could be nothing.

• 1:06:34Mark Manson?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:06:35Lewis Howes?

  Could be like, eh.

• 1:06:36Mark Manson?

  You really have no idea.

• 1:06:37Lewis Howes?

  But, uh, I feel excited about it because I'm, I'm proud about like being so open and, and giving an amazing effort.

• 1:06:45Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:46Lewis Howes?

  At trying to connect with people that I feel like are struggling the most.

• 1:06:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:50Lewis Howes?

  Which are the men in, in our society right now, specific, specifically with the challenges and uh, our political leadership where there's a lot of controversy and. You know, all the hate crimes and everything, it's just like, where's it coming from?

• 1:07:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:03Lewis Howes?

  You know, how can we move forward in a place of love and uplift all of humanity? That's my mission.

• 1:07:07Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:08Lewis Howes?

  So I feel like it starts within. I had to look within myself first and say, wow, there's probably a lot of men who are facing a similar challenge.

• 1:07:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah, there are.

• 1:07:16Lewis Howes?

  Um, I appreciate your support there.

• 1:07:18Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:18Lewis Howes?

  Um, this is a question called the three truths.

• 1:07:22Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 1:07:23Lewis Howes?

  You've written, how many articles now?

• 1:07:26Mark Manson?

  Oh God, hundreds. I don't know.

• 1:07:27Lewis Howes?

  Hundreds of articles. You've got a New York Times bestselling smashing hit with a million copies sold in the first year, which probably one of 20 people have done in the history of time in the first nine months. Um, and, and let's imagine that you've achieved everything you want to achieve.

• 1:07:44Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:44Lewis Howes?

  Which I know you don't have any big dreams. You keep it neutral, but let's say you achieve everything you want to.

• 1:07:50Mark Manson?

  Sure.

• 1:07:51Lewis Howes?

  And it's your last day for you, many, many years from now.

• 1:07:53Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 1:07:53Lewis Howes?

  It's your last day, you're a hundred and however old you want to be.

• 1:07:56Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 1:07:56Lewis Howes?

  And you've written many bestselling projects, all the content you want to write has been out there. You've done all the research, you've got all the answers for yourself.

• 1:08:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Lewis Howes?

  You've shared it with the world, but for whatever reason, it's all erased.

• 1:08:09Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 1:08:09Lewis Howes?

  No one has access to any book that you've ever done or any article.

• 1:08:12Mark Manson?

  Okay.

• 1:08:13Lewis Howes?

  And you've got a piece of paper and a pen.

• 1:08:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Lewis Howes?

  To write down three truths.

• 1:08:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Lewis Howes?

  Three things you know to be true about everything you've learned. And this is all that the world would be able to have to remember you by.

• 1:08:24Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Lewis Howes?

  What would be those lessons or those three truths?

• 1:08:29Mark Manson?

  Three, man. Um.

• 1:08:31Lewis Howes?

  No pressure.

• 1:08:32Mark Manson?

  No pressure.

• 1:08:32Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 1:08:34Mark Manson?

  Um.

• 1:08:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah. So, I mean, the first one that comes to mind is

• 1:08:42Mark Manson?

  what really, and it feels so cliche to say out loud, but it is a really profound thing. It took me a long time to realize is that really at the end of the day, that what really matters is the relationships with the people in your life, you know? Um. Success, accolades, money, having fun, like, these are all great things. Um, but if you don't have people close to you to share them with or to support or help support you, um, pretty much anything will eventually feel empty. Um.

• 1:09:22Mark Manson?

  So that would be a big one. Second one, I would say is that anything worthwhile is going to require some sort of sacrifice.

• 1:09:32Mark Manson?

  And a lot of people, you know, everybody's heard that. And I think when people hear that, they think of that. They think of in terms of like, oh, yeah, sacrifice, like you gotta work hard and you gotta stay at the office late. You gotta like, and that's true. But I think there's actually a a deeper and more difficult sacrifice, especially for our generation, which is to commit to something to like, make it meaningful and worthwhile and do it extremely well, become great at it. You have to be willing to give up

• 1:10:03Mark Manson?

  maybe other dreams or things that you want. You know, there came a point in my career where I was like, you know, this writing thing is going really well. You know, that was actually what killed my music dreams was the writing. Because it was like, the writing thing's going so well, I would be an idiot to like, stop and like, go, go start a band or something like, you know, it. And so I had to let it go. I had to be like, you know, it's, it's just not going to happen.

• 1:10:31Mark Manson?

  And, and there was a grieving process for that, but it was like, it was okay. You know, I moved on. And so I think that's kind of, that's the sacrifice is like, as you, especially as you get older, you have to like, realize that there's just some things that you're never going to do. And that's okay. Like, we all have to decide that at some point.

• 1:10:54Mark Manson?

  Third one.

• 1:10:58Mark Manson?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:10:59Lewis Howes?

  Your last.

• 1:11:02Mark Manson?

  The last truth that Mark Manson will ever leave behind.

• 1:11:07Mark Manson?

  I don't know, man. Just, uh,

• 1:11:11Lewis Howes?

  don't give a

• 1:11:11Mark Manson?

  Yeah, don't give a

• 1:11:14Mark Manson?

  vulnerability. A lot of stuff we've been talking about. Yeah. I guess you, you always have, you always, you can always choose, like, you always have the power to decide. You always have the power to decide like what something means. You always have the power to decide what to do next.

• 1:11:31Mark Manson?

  There's no situation where you aren't empowered in some way.

• 1:11:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, those are great. I love those. Well, I want to acknowledge you, Mark, for constantly reinventing yourself, being open and vulnerable and

• 1:11:45Lewis Howes?

  Taking the time to write something that matters to you.

• 1:11:47Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:48Lewis Howes?

  And I'm so glad that it matters to so many other people as well.

• 1:11:50Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:51Lewis Howes?

  But just your commitment to constantly doing the work.

• 1:11:56Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Lewis Howes?

  You've been doing this for years now and you're seeing the results come through. It's it's amazing and I'm super excited for you. So I want to acknowledge you for your vulnerability by constantly opening up.

• 1:12:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:06Lewis Howes?

  And showing other people how they can open up as well. Cause I think that's one of the most important things.

• 1:12:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Lewis Howes?

  Is not trying to act like you're better than you are or more important than you are or perfect.

• 1:12:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:17Lewis Howes?

  And by doing work that matters. It's really meaningful. So I acknowledge you for that, man. Yeah.

• 1:12:22Mark Manson?

  Appreciate it.

• 1:12:23Lewis Howes?

  Um, make sure you guys get the book. We have one final question. Make sure you get The Subtle Art of Not Giving a [BLEEP]. Uh, A Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life by Mark Manson, the mega hit. And where do you hang out online the most? Since you're not really on social media that much, but where can we connect with you and say hi? And tell you how amazing this is?

• 1:12:44Mark Manson?

  Uh, so my website, markmanson.net.

• 1:12:49Mark Manson?

  Got all sorts of articles and cool like PDFs and ebooks and stuff. Uh, so check that out and uh, social media, facebook.com/markmansonnet.

• 1:13:01Mark Manson?

  I actually do post there and there will be new stuff posted.

• 1:13:03Lewis Howes?

  No, your Facebook's great. You post a lot. Yeah. Mark Manson net on Facebook.

• 1:13:07Mark Manson?

  And then if you want to come to my Instagram and.

• 1:13:10Lewis Howes?

  Once a month you'll get something.

• 1:13:12Mark Manson?

  And see a picture once a month.

• 1:13:16Lewis Howes?

  Very cool, man. Well, I'm excited for this. And um, the final question for you is what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:13:23Mark Manson?

  Definition of greatness, I would say is feeling that. It's one of those things that's like, I have it in my head, but I gotta get the right words to like. I would say my definition of greatness is simply the experience of living.

• 1:13:42Mark Manson?

  Your potential, having, having an idea or a vision and then actually like bringing that into reality, whatever it is, could be like hosting a PTA meeting, you know, it could be writing a bestseller, it could be starting a business, could be tutoring your kids, like it, you know, it's having a vision for yourself and for the people you care about and then actually like realizing that, that's what I would say.

• 1:14:11Lewis Howes?

  Love it.

• 1:14:12Mark Manson?

  Mark Mason.

• 1:14:13Lewis Howes?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:14:13Mark Manson?

  Appreciate you.

• 1:14:14Lewis Howes?

  Thanks.

• 1:14:17Lewis Howes?

  Boom shakalaka, there you have it. If you enjoyed this, tag me on your Instagram story right now, at Lewis Howes on your Instagram story. Take a screenshot of this podcast on your phone or take a photo of it if you're listening to it on your computer and tag me at Lewis Howes with the link lewishowes.com/524. Also, the full show notes, the full video interview and other information about Mark's book is back on that link. Again, lewishowes.com/524. Let me know what you thought. Share it out on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all the places. And again, let me know what you think. I hope you guys enjoyed this one and I hope to see you in less than a month at the Summit

• 1:15:01Lewis Howes?

  of Greatness in Columbus, Ohio with some of the biggest and most inspirational speakers in the world. It's gonna be mind blowing. It's gonna be about a thousand people from all over the world coming together to learn how to continue to dive into their own greatness. I hope to see you there. Make sure to give me a big hug, say hi to me when you're there. It's gonna be a blast. And like Tony Robbins said, whatever you hold in your mind on a consistent basis is exactly what you'll experience in your life. I hope you guys are holding powerful things in your mind consistently and you know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.