52 Why Play Is the New Hustle in Business with Charlie Hoehn

Charlie Hoehn has worked with some of the greatest authors of our times. People like Tim Ferriss, Seth Godin, Ramit Sethi and Tucker Max. During that time he has created some of the most successful launches ever. He found himself in massive breakdown and had to dig his way out. On this episode of the School of Greatness, Charlie teaches us, from personal experience, how to succeed in the new world of work. Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 52 with Charlie Hoehn.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  Hey, what is up, greats? Thanks so much for tuning in today. I'm super pumped about this episode. It's with my good man, Charlie Hoehn, and it's all about why you need to play it away. And he's got a new book out called Play It Away: A Workaholic's Cure for Anxiety. Now, there's so many things that are happening in a lot of entrepreneurs' lives. You've got the family, you've got the career, you've got the dream of your success, finances, everything else that's happening. And a lot of times, some of us forget that life is all about play. And Charlie has a very unique story and experiences that he shares in this episode.

• 1:16Lewis Howes?

  It's all about kind of his rise to the top in the career world in his twenties. And how he became extremely depressed and had a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress, while working with some of the most influential people in the entrepreneurial business space. He worked with Seth Godin, Tim Ferriss, Tucker Max, Ramit Sethi, and supported them in a lot of their biggest launches, a lot of their number one book, number one New York Times bestselling book campaigns, events that they did. And he was part of the execution team for a lot of them in that. He became very unhappy and he realized that he was focusing a lot of his energy on

• 2:00Lewis Howes?

  work and making sure that he was getting results and he really forgot about playing. He realized he wasn't playing anymore. And so this is a very interesting episode and I think it speaks true to a lot of us that we need to play. We need to have fun. We need to remember what life is all about. And so I'm very excited to introduce Charlie here in a second with this, this new book that he's got and this new message that he's sharing in this book. So stay tuned for that. With that, guys, let's go ahead and jump in right now with the one and only Charlie Hoehn.

• 2:43Lewis Howes?

  And thanks again, everyone, for tuning into the School of Greatness. I've got a friend on who I haven't talked to actually in a while and it's because he was going through a lot of anxiety and extremely stressed out and he found his way back to living a life, a fulfilled life, having a lot of fun and stress free. And so we're coming back on today to chat for the first time in a while because he's written a book about his entire journey and it's called Play It Away: A Workaholic's Cure for Anxiety. His name is Mr. Charlie Hoehn. What's up, my man?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Hey, Louis. Thanks so much for having me on, dude.

• 3:21Lewis Howes?

  I'm excited, man, because we've known each other for probably, I think, four years, maybe even longer. And you used to work with a number of really influential individuals in the online business space and marketing space in general. Ramit Sethi you worked with for a while. You also worked with Seth Godin, I believe, early on and Tim Ferriss for some of his book marketing and the Four Hour Chef apps and things like that. So you've worked with some amazing influential minds over the last five, six years, isn't that right?

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've had a lot of good fortune to work with.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  I started off in Colorado and I just kind of reached out to all of these guys who were in New York or San Francisco and I was really fortunate to get in touch with them and to be able to work with them one on one.

• 4:16Lewis Howes?

  And you originally worked with Seth was kind of like how you got started, I think, right?

• 4:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, Seth was, that was a virtual internship and I applied to that and got rejected and he opened it up to all the people who got rejected and he said, "I'll, you know, just, I'll give you an assignment, you keep working on it throughout the week." And then I stuck with that for a couple of months and then got to meet him in New York and he helped the, there were about a dozen of us who saw the virtual internship through to completion.

• 4:51Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, nice. And then you started working with Ramit after that, right?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 4:56Lewis Howes?

  And what were the stuff you were working on with him?

• 4:59Speaker 01

  I reached out to him originally to offer help with his online video. I noticed he was really good on video, but he never did it. And I said, "Dude, you gotta, you gotta do more of this and if what's holding you back is not having a video editor, like how, how big the files are, any of that, just let me take care of it for you." And so I started doing his video editing and taking care of that stuff and then we started working on the plan for his, his book, The Marketing Plan, and I helped him market that.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  And then he, he introduced me to Tim Ferriss and around that time I was also working with Tucker Maxx, the author of I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell. And, um, yeah, so both of those guys recommended me to Tim and I ended up working full-time with Tim.

• 6:03Lewis Howes?

  For about how long?

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Um, we started on a part-time basis in, I think it was 2008 and, um, we worked together, I think, for around three years or maybe even a little over that.

• 6:18Lewis Howes?

  And you worked with him for one or two books?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  I I worked with him on, well, when I first came on, um, he had just released the second edition of the Four Hour Work Week. And so I helped him market the release of the second edition and then um, I worked with him from start to finish, pretty much, uh, on the Four Hour Body, just helping him edit it during the production and then launch it. And then I got a few months into the Four Hour Chef and then I quit.

• 6:55Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha. So you were basically responsible for a couple of big New York Times bestsellers with Tim's for our body. I guess we're not responsible, but you're on the team, you're on the team, you're on the team of really devising a great plan with these authors and then executing these plans, which that's where, you know, it doesn't matter if you have a great plan, it's all about having a great execution, in my opinion. And um, you were an essential part, ingredient of those plans and of those executions. And you were on point with, you know, everything with reaching out to people, with having the press information, with with everything they needed. You were there. And we actually did a video about this, I think, three years ago or something, where

• 7:38Lewis Howes?

  we talk about the how to market a book, number one New York Times bestseller, because you'd done a couple of them. And uh, that's the video's actually been, you know, a great resource for a lot of authors, uh, from all of your information.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I should I should say, uh, that these guys all had platforms before me. They would have done fine.

• 7:58Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Um, and I, but you know, they needed help. And I was able to come to them with a very specific outline of what I could offer that. Was immediately understandable from their perspective as oh, this guy can help me get through this with less pain and end up selling hopefully more books.

• 8:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I, I get, I think sometimes more credit than I deserve, but I, I did, I did hustle and I did work really hard to get in those positions. So at the same time, I got, I gotta take it.

• 8:37Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, yeah. And, and then you, so you stopped working with Tim and I remember, I remember all this happening because we were, we were at-

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, we talked on the phone about this.

• 8:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we were at Tim's event as well. Tim had a big event about, you know, book marketing and you were there really supporting that entire event as well and making that happen. And, um, and I remember seeing you there and just thinking that you would look so stressed out, man. I was like, man, this guy is, looks exhausted, looks like his heart is racing constantly. There's a, the weight of the world is on his shoulders and, um, you know, we talked about it a little bit and you were like, you wanted to write a book. I had, I said, what is it you really want to do? And you had like, I have, I think I have like a hundred ideas that I've written down for businesses that I want to do and I want to write a book and this and that. But you were still kind of unclear and, but you quit and then you started working with another friend of mine, Chad, on App Empire stuff.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Chad Veretta, yeah.

• 9:31Lewis Howes?

  And, uh, so why'd you decide to work with App Empire, which ended up being a multimillionaire business and basically the first year? Um, why'd you end up doing that?

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Um, I was, you know, we talked when I was in San Francisco and I was kind of lost and you gave me some, um, really good advice. I remember because I was talking about this stuff and I was saying, you know, I feel like I have to become this successful entrepreneur. And you were like, what is it that you would actually do if like money and prestige wasn't an issue? Like what is it that you actually really enjoy doing? And I I thought about it for a second and I said, you know, I really like making people laugh. Like, I really just enjoy that. And if I could, I would do something in that realm.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  And it's funny, you know, before we started this podcast, we were talking about, and I've now I've been doing improv comedy for several months. And for the first time in my life, and that's just been great. But I, to get back to your question, why I started working with Chad, I was really unclear. Um, what I wanted to do, I I just felt like I was being pulled in all these different directions. And then. Chad approached me and uh, he said, you know, I want to start an app company. Uh, and I knew he'd done really well, um, but he was like, I want to start something. That I'm not gonna sell and I want to be working with my friends.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  And uh, so Chad and I, you know, started getting lunches and stuff together and talking about this. And uh, I had developed an app called Negotiate It with Rameen. And uh, the app is basically just the counter scripts that you can read to co- to companies and. Like your cellphone bill company and um, your cable bill, you call them up and. You you basically get money back just by reading these scripts in this app. And I didn't know how to market that. So I said to Chad, I'll help you um, market your book.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  If you help teach me everything you know about apps and. How how to market them. And um, so I I came up with. You know, part I I looked at his marketing plan and revised it and helped him there. And um.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, then we we started working together and we enjoyed it and um the three of us, Jason Adams was the other one. We all kind of talked about co-founding a company together and it did pretty well and then I I ended up quitting that as well.

• 12:26Lewis Howes?

  Now that which company was that? Was that App Empire or is that?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's it's kind of an umbrella company. Um they made um an information product uh that teaches people how to start their own app business.

• 12:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  A lot of people want to know how to do that, but.

• 12:43Lewis Howes?

  And that ended up selling, you know, a couple of million dollars in sales, I think, in the first year, right?

• 12:47Speaker 01

  In ten days.

• 12:49Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did really well. There was a lot of demand for it and it was an expensive product. This wasn't like a it was like a two thousand dollar product, so.

• 12:59Lewis Howes?

  And so you were a part owner in that or what was your?

• 13:02Speaker 01

  No, I mean, my role was um I said, you know, I was getting paid well per month and uh I, you know, I just said, let's go month to month. While we're starting this because I don't want to, you know, immediately jump into equity talk and uh residuals and all that um. Cause I want to make sure we're all like on the same page. And so we ended up working together for a few months. And I was helping them with basically day-to-day operations and we were just seeing, we were just feeling each other out to see what this would be like because.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Frankly, I I wasn't sure, you know, I I didn't know Chad or Jason super well. I know both of them pretty well now. Um but I wasn't sure if it was the right move. It was initially really appealing and exciting to me because I was like. Oh, man, Facebook just acquired Instagram for a billion dollars and Draw Something got bought by Zynga for two hundred and fifty million. And that was my mindset at the time. I was just like, this is the fastest growing industry in the history of capitalism. Um.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  What, what, you know, I'm living the dream. I could, I could co-found an app company with two of my friends and we could just work. We could just make games and fun apps and stuff all day long. And I thought, you know, that was what I needed to be doing. I thought that was the next natural step I needed to take in my career to like feel good about myself, I guess.

• 14:36Lewis Howes?

  And so why did you quit?

• 14:39Speaker 01

  It, it just didn't feel right. It never really resonate. Like, I don't really care about apps. You know, I don't, I don't. And it took me a long time to realize that. And the apps that I was making, I was just like, man, I don't think there's a single one of these I would use.

• 14:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Like, I used negotiate it because I was like, this is a practical app. It's useful to have. Um, but it, there was nothing I would get really amped up about. And, you know, the apps just aren't really anything I, I care about. I, I like, um, I like books. I like film. Um, but not apps. And my ideas just weren't that good.

• 15:24Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 15:26Lewis Howes?

  I would be honest. Uh, okay. So you quit because you didn't like apps. And, uh, what was next then? What did you, what did you realize? What realization did you come to?

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Uh, the realization I came to, well, I mean, that kind of ratcheted up my anxiety to the highest level because I, you know, at the time I didn't have the, really the self-awareness of like, why am I doing this stuff?

• 15:49Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  And it was like a status play. It was prestige. It was a money play. And it was like all the wrong reasons.

• 15:57Lewis Howes?

  What about, what about the happiness play?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. That was lacking. And, you know, it's funny because I, I went into hibernation mode. I moved to Colorado and I was like, all right, I'm gonna write my book, you know, because a part of me, I was like, I know that, you know, I've been working on this book, uh, for five years and I know I'm never gonna write this if I actually reach the success I think I need to reach, uh, in order to be taken seriously as an author. Does that make sense?

• 16:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Um, so.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Uh, the book I was working on was based on like an ebook I wrote years ago called Recession Proof Graduate. And it's just how to get any job you want, basically. Uh, cause the methods and techniques I was using, I noticed a lot of people were using to get themselves these amazing gigs.

• 16:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Like my friend, our friend Ryan Holiday, who at twenty-three was Director of Marketing for American Apparel. Um, so I, I started working on that book. I moved back to Colorado and was living in a ski town, writing every day. And I did that for months and I cranked out about a hundred and twenty-five thousand words. And um, finally reached the point with the book where I wasn't too embarrassed by it. So I gave it to people. And I just, and again, it was the same problem. It was like, I was writing that book, but I wasn't in a great state of mind. I, it wasn't like a happy state of mind. I wasn't pursuing my own happiness. I was doing it because I thought I had to.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  And I just like, I still didn't know what I should be doing. Like there was all this, there was all this anxiety while I was making this, this first book. And when I showed it to people, um, to a few of my author friends, they all said the same thing. They were like, there's this one section that's really good, but it doesn't belong in the book.

• 18:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  And that was the section on overcoming anxiety. Because I felt like, i- i- that section I wrote at the time, a lot of it was like therapeutic. It was like, okay, I tried a bunch of things. This was the stuff that actually helped and worked. And um, but you know, there were still some missing pieces to it. I still didn't understand why I didn't feel great and uh, or the way I used to.

• 18:30Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  And um.

• 18:32Lewis Howes?

  So, so what happened in that book?

• 18:34Speaker 01

  That book, um, I cut out that section. Um, and then the, what happened to, uh, the first book that I originally worked on?

• 18:44Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Uh, it's still on the back burner because what happened was I moved down to Austin. And, um, you know, when I first arrived down here, I wasn't feeling too great still. And then, you know, I was just trying to get my groove back, basically. And then there was this one night where I read, um, just by random chance. It, I, I read this book called Play by, uh, Stuart Brown. And it's just like, it was one of those few. It's one of those books that came at the exact right time in my life that just like complete.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  It was, it, it just hit me so hard what I'd been doing wrong for so long. Was just, I was chronically depriving myself of play. I was constantly rejecting every opportunity to have like guilt free fun. Because everything I was doing was like, this has got to earn me money. This has got to advance my career. This has got to like, was all about doing more and more and more. And I never like accounted for, like, just having fun, just doing things for the sake of doing them. And that's like, that mentality, that state of mind was how I'd always been. I'd never really been serious up until recently.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  And that wa- that mentality was how I got those jobs in the first place. Like, I viewed life as a series of opportunities to have fun. And so when I was approaching Ramit and Tucker and Tim. For me, that was fun because I was, I was getting to think of ways to make their customers happier and to, and to play a game of my own, you know? And then at some point, I just started taking all of it very seriously.

• 20:40Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. This is interesting now, so. Play. A lot of people take their career and business very seriously. And it stresses them out. They get burned out, they have depression, they're, you know, create cancers in their bodies. They get sick, they get overweight because they're just working constantly. They don't sleep. So how important is play in the workplace?

• 21:06Speaker 01

  I think it's everything. I mean, I, I think it's, it's not only a state of mind, but like it's also an action that you have to take because the way that we work now is so foreign to how human beings would actually behave. Uh, you know, the way we evolved was to move and to have fun and to, to do these, i- i- like in the hunter gatherer times, like kids would play pretty much all day. And now they sit in a classroom staring at screens. Because that's actually preparing them for adulthood.

• 21:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  That's how adults behave. So we sit in chairs all day indoors depriving ourselves of fresh air, sunlight, movement.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  And we take everything we do so seriously. So, um, I found when I started playing, like the first real play moment I had where I was like, I'm gonna make a conscious effort to play was when this guy introduced his friend to me through email. And said, you guys, you guys really ought to meet. And his friend wrote back and he said, hey, Charlie, we should grab coffee sometime. And I wrote back to him like, we, I, you know, it's nice to meet you, but let's not grab coffee. Let's go to the park and play catch.

• 22:34Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  And, um, and when we did that, and he was so happy that I responded with that because no one ever responds with that. But, um, when, when we did that, like both of us actually had a genuine bond and there was no, there was no pressure to talk the whole time. There was no pressure to impress each other, you know, that this subtle game that everyone does when during these business meetings was like, I'm higher status, you're lower status sort of thing. It's just constant. And, um,

• 23:08Speaker 01

  It was just nice. It was, it was relaxing. And when I came off of that, when, when we were done playing catch, I noticed how much lighter and happier I felt. And for the first time, I noticed like,

• 23:22Speaker 01

  I was aware that I was, you know, being more flirtatious and I was more likely to prank. I, I, I was like pranking my friends and um it's, I just had this playful energy that I just had been lacking for a long time. And um,

• 23:43Speaker 01

  yeah, it was just, it was nice. And I, what I noticed um, over time was how much it affected my productivity and how necessary it was to have that downtime. So sleep is so beneficial for us because it, it gives our brain a chance to digest everything that's been coming in throughout the day and actually process it and kind of do a cleanup, like a reset. Um, we need sleep. But we also need play because when you're moving around, you can't be thinking about stuff. So it gives your brain a ch- another chance to relax.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  And you're moving around and it's, it's releasing all these positive feelings inside of you. And I remember um, my friend, uh, um, I had two friends, actually. Uh, my friend Anne, she was just zoned out. She texted me one day. She's like, I'm trying to get through my work, but I can't because I'm so bored that I've been staring at a turtle swimming by nearby for the last hour. So we went to the park and played with an Aroby flying ring, which is basically a flying disc that goes really fast and far and is hard to control. So you have to sprint around after it.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  And we played for a couple hours and she texted me the next day and she was like, it's crazy to me how like I gave myself permission to just take a day off and have fun. And it's made work today easier than ever, basically. And my friend Aaron did the same thing. And we just noticed that

• 25:30Speaker 01

  You know, taking time off to have fun and do fun stuff with your friends without feeling bad about it. Knowing that it's a necessity and not uh an escape was it it it impacted our work. It made us more creative, more productive, it made work easier and faster.

• 25:50Lewis Howes?

  So interesting that such a simple concept to just play is something that can help you in all areas of your life and especially in your career and relieving stress, anxiety by simply just playing. And do you have a, you know, what about people who are like, well, you know, this is serious for me because I gotta make money, I've got kids, I've got responsibilities, I've got bills, and if I don't focus and and if I'm not serious with my career and really taking these calculated steps, then how am I gonna like provide for my basic needs, provide for my family and get the, you know, acknowledgement I want, I guess, in my career? So what do you, what do you say to people like that who are stressed because they they need to focus and they need to be, you know, not sleep?

• 26:35Speaker 01

  I would say, I would say a few things to that. One, they need time off because if if you get in that mode where you're taking everything so seriously, like no matter what happens, you're probably not gonna die, you're probably not gonna suffer too too much, and you need that time off to decompress and actually enjoy life. Because when you get around people and you have this guilt-free fun with them, playing, doing something that everyone enjoys, where you're not being a perfectionist and you're not so caught up in the outcome, and you're just enjoying the moment, you actually get

• 27:17Speaker 01

  to bond with those people and you form friendships with them. And that's what prevents anxiety, is actually feeling like you're a part of a group that loves you, that you can have fun with and trust. And I forget who said this, but one author did a bunch of research on happiness and he found that the people who reported the highest degrees of happiness, the top 10%, there was only one thing that they had in common, and it was the quality of their relationships. And you can't Get quality relationships exclusively from working all the time. Or just from talking over coffee all the time.

• 28:00Speaker 01

  Or from going to seminars and handing out your business cards. You actually have to bond with people. My best friends from high school are the people I played sports with for years. You know, and I guarantee you can say the same, right?

• 28:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you get to bond over an activity that you enjoy and you get to see each other fail in a way that's totally harmless and funny. And you just form this unique bond that you can only have by playing.

• 28:31Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  And and when you have that bond, you actually have relationships with these people. And they're more likely to introduce you to unique opportunities.

• 28:43Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, cause you have a greater, you have a deeper connection with them, yeah.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're more likely to trust you, so I think. Not everyone's playing the same game of I have to take this very seriously and I have to stare at my computer all day long and. Interact with people through screens and that's perfectly acceptable. And you can not only distinguish yourself by actually going out and playing face to face in the real world with them. But you can actually form real, meaningful relationships with these people.

• 29:16Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, so what's a, so what what steps can someone take if they're super stressed out, living in anxiety? Never play because they've just been focused on working and making money and and and achieving that type of. Financial status, what are some things they can do to get started playing where they're guilt free? When they do this, because that's probably a lot of people's concern is that they play, they feel like it's. They're they feel very guilty, especially if it's during the work day.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:44Lewis Howes?

  And then if they're after work and they've got kids, they can't go play, you know, on their own or whatever, because they feel guilty.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Or they could play with their kids.

• 29:52Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, yeah, this is a good question, I think. The first thing they should do is write up their play history. And what that is, is all the activities that they voluntarily turn to for fun. Repeatedly when they were growing up. So for me, that was, you know, team sports and playing catch. Um, but it was also making people laugh. I would do film sketches. And I would write uh stand up comedy jokes and I would go to stand up comedy events. I would, I loved building things with my hands.

• 30:37Speaker 01

  Uh, I loved uh like assembling furniture or building furniture from scratch. And s- and I really loved what I realized, the, the one game that I played more than anything else. All throughout my life, up until several years ago, was Home Run Derby. My friends and I would always play it, like, we would just go in somebody's big backyard with a bucket of tennis balls. And just hit home runs and it was so much fun. So I went through my play history and I just picked my top. Things that I did, my top activities. And um, and then I scheduled in my calendar um every day.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  To do one of those things for twenty minutes. I would, I would really take that seriously and I know. I know it's like kind of weird to schedule it in your calendar because it's like play's supposed to be spontaneous and everything, but. Um, if you're, if you're chronically play deprived. Then you need to cut out a section of time during the day where you're like, alright, I'm just gonna play ping pong. With my friend and like sit down and have a talk with your friend and be like, look, this is a priority for me. Life is too serious. And I need a way to decompress. Can you help me because I'm really stressed out and. I would love to make this a commitment on a day to day basis.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And I think my favorite play toy. That you can get for under ten dollars is that Aroby flying ring because you have to like. You have to run around after it, so it's a good like, you're, you're getting your heart racing. And uh, so it's actually a form of exercise. And uh, and you have to play with a friend to make it fun. So I think, you know, it's, it's just baby steps. Instead of getting coffee with somebody, play catch with them.

• 32:36Lewis Howes?

  Right. And on the cover of your book, on the cover of your book, you actually have you and another guy playing catch with, with a suit or with a tie on. And I thought it was pretty interesting. It kind of reminds me of Field of Dreams.

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's exactly what I went for, actually. Did you see the post I did?

• 32:55Lewis Howes?

  I did not see the post you did.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  I did a post on how, how I designed my book cover and the two elements that I took in, or the three elements I took into account. Um, or the three pieces of art were Field of Dreams, Big Fish, and Where the Wild Things Are.

• 33:11Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  And like the spirit of those movies is so ingrained in my mind and the imagery. And it's just like all of them encapsulate like play and nostalgia for me. So.

• 33:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  That's what I was going for.

• 33:26Lewis Howes?

  No, it's a great cover.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 33:28Lewis Howes?

  I don't know who, who is the, the gentleman? Is that a?

• 33:31Speaker 01

  That's my dad.

• 33:31Lewis Howes?

  Okay. Yeah. That's what I figured. That's pretty interesting. Field of Dreams right there.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:37Lewis Howes?

  Uh, and he's actually got a catcher's bit, which is funny.

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Ray Kinsella.

• 33:43Lewis Howes?

  That's funny. Um, so you just gave some steps on how you can kind of get started. And in your book, you've got a four week plan for health and happiness and you talk about, um, how you changed the world, which I want to tap into in a second. But what I want to know is if you started off, let's, how old are you now, Charlie?

• 34:01Speaker 01

  Twenty seven.

• 34:02Lewis Howes?

  So if you started off when you were twenty one, playing for a living as opposed to trying to create this financial success, and this status or achievements in the business world, if you started out playing and kind of doing what you love every single day, with the acting, the improv, the, the script writing and playing, would you be as financially successful as you are today?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  I wouldn't call myself financially successful by any stretch. I mean, I uh I've made decent money in the past, but. Yeah, I I wanna be clear, I don't have as much money as you think I might have, but would I be where I am if I'd started with? Like the other forms of play is the question, right? Um, I don't know where I would be. I think my my what what I when I was making this book. When when I started looking into, you know, people who'd emphasize the importance of play and doing stuff. That's really fun. I started finding that.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  They were some of the most successful and influential and innovative people. I don't know if. I would be doing what I'm doing now, but I know that I started by thinking of who can I? Work with that can teach me what I want to learn that will be cool and fun for me to do. And I started not thinking how much money I can get, um because I was working with a lot of these guys for free for a long time. And I started from that place of what is gonna be fun for me. While enabling me to become an entrepreneur, because that's in my mind, like.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  Inventors and entrepreneurs I thought were so cool and I've I've always been that way. Um I've always thought that. Um but. I, yeah, I don't know if I would be doing um just stand up or. Or film, I'm not sure. I mean, I explored film for a while and now I'm exploring improv. I have tons and tons of interests and I have tons of things that I do for fun. So it's really tough to say. I mean, books, writing is is can be really fun for me and. Reading is can be really fun for me too. So I don't know.

• 36:39Lewis Howes?

  Well, what about changing the world? How do we change the world?

• 36:42Speaker 01

  So the way you changed the world, I think we're living in one of the most anxious periods of time. One of the more anxious periods of time in recent history because everything is connected now all around the world. And we're constantly attached to screens and there's a lot. We all have access to the same information, basically, and a lot of that information is scary and it's uncertain. And it talks about the future and how scary it's gonna be. And it's really easy to fall into this trap of constant fear about the future.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  And the doom and gloom and the end is near and all this stuff. And I got into that trap for a while and it was not because that information is necessarily completely accurate. But it's because I was isolated and alone and taking everything very seriously. And I was just on the constant lookout for threats to my survival. And when I started playing again, that went away. And, you know, I forgot, you know, life isn't about success and prestige. Life is about connection. It's a ride. It's a gift, you know?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  It's not supposed to be, how can I not lose? It's supposed to be about being in the moment. And I think the way you change the world is by asking those people who are afraid and anxious. And you can see it on their face. You can see it in their eyes, to be a part of your group and to play. And when you do that, you can help them remember what it's like to be a kid again.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  And remember that the world is their playground, not the prison that they think it is.

• 38:50Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, I like that. It's interesting. I just read um an article recently on Huffington Post that talked about global game changers reveal what success looks like in their twenties and how that has changed. And it reminds me a lot of this conversation and there's a lot of people, a lot of well-known people, Tyra Banks was mentioned on there. Uh Arianna Huffington and uh Richard Branson, things like that, mentioned on their, you know, in their twenties. It was mostly, the synopsis was mostly that it was about climbing the ladder, uh gaining material things, money,

• 39:24Lewis Howes?

  achievements, things like that. And then afterwards, they realized that going into their thirties, that they're very sleep deprived, having a lot of anxiety, stressed out constantly, losing on, losing on a connection. And when they would achieve these financial results or these material results, they were found very unfulfilled and unhappy. Oh, after a period of time. And so what started shifting was more of connection and impact and giving to the community, to the world and to others. And that's what really uh made them successful and made them feel fulfilled was that sense of giving and community and living in the moment.

• 40:07Lewis Howes?

  And you know, in connection, which what you said is the most, you know, one of the most important things.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:13Lewis Howes?

  And um you've got a really good four-week game plan for, you know, how to play and how to get rid of anxiety and things like that. And looking through it, it's, it's really practical. There's a lot of great tips and steps and suggestions, which I think are, are extremely valuable for people who may be clueless or may think, you know, I don't have the time to do this, or, you know, again, I need to be serious. I need to make money. I gotta support my family. But I really encourage you guys to check this out because of this four-week game plan that Charlie has. It's really uh very practical and it's something that anyone can do, little bits of it at a time as needed. And uh you give, you know, you give steps on what to do, how much it costs, when to do it, resources and things like that,

• 40:58Lewis Howes?

  which I think are extremely valuable. And uh it's really cool that you've decided to. Write about this and be, uh, you know, kind of a messenger for a lot of people, specifically entrepreneurs, who are stressed out a lot and and people who, you know, stress and anxiety are really the cause of a lot of illness.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:19Lewis Howes?

  And disease and, um.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  And unhappiness.

• 41:22Lewis Howes?

  And unhappiness. So it's no point in being unhappy. I mean, we, like you said, we've only got one life. Uh, that we, that we know of. So let's

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:31Lewis Howes?

  Make it happy.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, you know, for, for all the anxious people out there, you know, when, when people say like there's, you know, just be happy, you know, there's no point in like taking life so seriously. It's really hard for an anxious people to he, for an anxious person to hear that because they're like, I know, but I can't help but be terrified and worry and living in constant dread. And the way you can inoculate that is by incorporating guilt free fun back into your life, not just the action, but the state of mind. And that's like the thing I really want to impart on people is like play is not only the thing that you do, but it's the way that you think. It's the way you approach the world.

• 42:17Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. I like that a lot. I think I, I, I believe that's mostly how I live my life and

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're a good example.

• 42:25Lewis Howes?

  I feel very relaxed and inspired and energized throughout all my days. Again, there's probably a lot of moments where I falter and get stressed out, but for the most part, when I'm playing and when I, you know, especially in the summer, I make it a, it's my intention to go outside and play basketball for about three hours a night, pick up basketball.

• 42:47Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 42:47Lewis Howes?

  Here in West Hollywood and, uh, you know, I'm working out a lot. And I'm playing, uh, handball and I'm, I'm striving for the Olympic dream of playing handball and I'm playing a lot. And it's, it's fun because you get to connect, you get to sweat, you get to be in the moment. And whenever I'm playing, I'm in flow. And

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 43:06Lewis Howes?

  It's the most powerful, uh, it's the

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Play slips you into flow.

• 43:12Lewis Howes?

  And flow is the most amazing feeling in the world. It's uh, something that athletes strive to be in uh, all the time. Authors, you know, musicians, actors. When people are in flow, it's, it's, it's one of the most amazing feelings in the world. It makes you feel the most alive, the most uh, excited, energized, passionate. And it's like

• 43:35Speaker 01

  You get chills from it.

• 43:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and time slows down and speeds up at the same time.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Right, you can lean into life rather than timidly tipping your toes out into it. It's, it's an amazing feeling.

• 43:48Lewis Howes?

  And the only way to really create that is by being uh, is allowing yourself to surrender to play. Um, or to surrender to the moment and, and let go of everything else you're thinking about and focus only on that moment with your entire way of being, your body, your energy, your thoughts, your entire heart, everything. So, uh, I'm really grateful that you decided to write this book finally. And uh, I think it's, I think it's perfect timing for you. And you've, you've done all the hard work. You've had enough, you, you've dealt with enough anxiety and stress over the years to, to be credible enough to write this.

• 44:29Lewis Howes?

  So I, I appreciate you for coming together with this. And it's not, it's not a long read either. It's, you know, it's very, it's very quick and

• 44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanted to, I wanted to get to the point as quickly as I could with uh, with this book because anxious people want to the chase.

• 44:47Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Um, but yeah, man, it's uh, it's, it's really, really crazy with this book because it came out of another book. And I think this one's not only better, but it's just like, it's something I love. Like when, when I flip through it, I'm like, God, it just, this is so good that something so good came out of so much pain.

• 45:10Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  And uh, I think it's gonna help a lot of people who need it.

• 45:16Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, man. I love it. Where uh, where can we find this?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  You will be able to pick up the book on Amazon as a paperback or a Kindle. It will also be on iBooks and I'm also selling the PDF, the DRM free PDF on Gumroad. So if you want to just, if that's too much to handle, you can find links and stuff really easy, easily on my website, charliehoehn.com.

• 45:48Lewis Howes?

  And that's H O E H and we'll have, we'll have it all over at the show notes at lewishouse.com. But I appreciate it, man. And I want to wrap up with the, the final question.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  Thanks so much.

• 45:58Lewis Howes?

  I got one more question for you.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:00Lewis Howes?

  That's what I ask everyone and it's what's your definition of greatness?

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Being your best and being the best, most authentic version of yourself. Which is really hard to do the way we're brought up. But I think for me, to tie it back into what we've been talking about, play brings out the best version of myself, the greatest version. When I allow myself to do it. And I think that goes with everybody.

• 46:33Lewis Howes?

  I agree. I love it, man. Charliehoehn.com. Make sure to pick up the book. It's an awesome read for really letting go of your stress and anxiety and bringing play back in your life. So I appreciate you, man. And I'm super grateful for you for creating this. And I know it's going to help a lot of people. So thanks so much and we'll definitely, we'll definitely talk to you soon, man.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  All right, man. Thanks so much, Jen.

• 47:07Lewis Howes?

  There you have it. Thanks so much for listening today. Again, Charlie is a, is a great guy and has an amazing story of what he's created in his twenties. But really what he realizes that it comes down to leaving a bigger impact and making sure you're taking care of yourself and playing and having fun with other people, creating this community around play as opposed to around, let's just have. Coffee and be serious and, and network and trade business cards, but really, why don't we play and have fun around this and build a deeper bond, deeper trust, deeper relationship around the idea of play? I think it's brilliant and it's a way I try to live my life as well. So if you enjoyed this, then make sure to check out Charlie's site over at charliehone.com.

• 47:51Lewis Howes?

  You've got all the show notes over at schoolofgreatness.com or lewishouse.com and just check out the episode with Charlie Hoehn on the podcast section. And if you enjoyed this, or you think maybe you've got some workaholic friends yourself who could apply some play in their life, then go ahead and share this with your friends. Go ahead and send an email, promote it on Twitter or Facebook or anywhere else online that you see fit. And I appreciate you for sharing this and constantly listening. We've got some amazing episodes coming up and if you have yet to listen to any previous episodes, make sure to go back into the archives and check it out. There's some great guests on here over at the School of Greatness and we're going to continue to bring you some of the top guests and influencers and inspiring minds in the world.

• 48:35Lewis Howes?

  So stay tuned, make sure to subscribe over on SoundCloud, Stitcher, or iTunes and subscribe to the newsletter over at lewishouse.com. I appreciate you, I love you, and make sure to go out there and do something great.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  When stress does hit you, how many of you will admit that after nine 11, maybe you had a little stress? Can I see your hands, please? All right? Let me tell you something, folks. If you take the word stressed and spell it backwards, it's desserts. When you respond to life instead of react to it, react is negative. You get sick, go to the doctor, she gives you a prescription, says, see me tomorrow. You walk in the next day, she said, oh, it's not working, we have to change their prescription. You get a little nervous, but as you smile and say, hey, it's working. And so you have just, she's just responded and you feel better because now you see some real hope in order. ...to get ahead in life.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  But I don't care how optimistic you are, and incidentally, for what it's worth, I am an optimist. Uh, I'd take my last two dollars and buy a money belt with it. I mean, that's the way I'm put together. I'd go after Moby Dick and a robo and take the tartar sauce with me. Your optimism is an important fact of life.