Pod Insights The School of Greatness 517 The 4 Personality Types of Successful Entrepreneurs with John Danner and Chris Kuenne About this episode "Who you are shapes how you build." - Chris Kuenne If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/517 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX
Transcript 14,889 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Lewis Howes? This is episode number 517 with Princeton faculty members on entrepreneurship, John Danner and Chris Keeney.
0:10 Lewis Howes? Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.
0:36 Lewis Howes? There's a lot of bad reasons to start a company, but there's only one good legitimate reason. And I think you know what it is. It's to change the world. Phil Libin, the CEO of Evernote, said that. It is Professor Week at the School of Greatness. This week, I'm bringing you some of the best professors in the world to teach right from the podcast. Now, I typically bring you professors of life, the greatest athletes in the world, the greatest musicians, the greatest authors, speakers, spiritual leaders, the greatest minds in general. But I'm actually bringing you real life professors. That's right. John Danner, who's an advisor, teacher, and author and speaker, brings decades of entrepreneurial
1:19 Lewis Howes? and professional experience to his global work with leaders and their organizations in many settings. He teaches at both UC Berkeley and Princeton, and he's an incredible teacher on innovation, entrepreneurship, strategy, and leadership. And Chris Keeney is a successful business builder, growth capital investor, and member of Princeton University's Entrepreneurship Faculty. He built Rosetta, which is a digital marketing firm, where he and his colleagues translated insights about customer motivation into personalized sales and marketing techniques designed to accelerate growth. He now teaches these techniques to his students at Princeton and applies them to drive
2:02 Lewis Howes? the enterprise value of companies at Rosemar Capital, the private equity firm that he founded. These guys are both brilliant in business and brilliant at teaching and breaking down what it means to be a great entrepreneur. And in this interview, we talk about the four personality types that successful entrepreneurs can be, and how you can be one of these four in order to build and grow a successful business. We also talk about how to find partners and co-founders for a startup or a business that's already thriving that you have, and how to know which one of the personality types that you need to look for based on your personality type.
2:45 Lewis Howes? The big mistake most entrepreneurs make when hiring new team members, we break down how to hire team members, what you should be looking for when you're hiring in the first place, and the best people to hire. We also talk about bringing on investors. Should you bring on investors for your business? Or should you invest your capital back into your brand as much as possible? We also talk about what makes the difference between entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs. This, we break it down, guys, in a very academic level with a lot of research and a lot of data, based on years of experience. These guys break it down in something that I thought was fascinating. I could have talked to them for a long time.
3:29 Lewis Howes? It's all about building for growth. If you want to grow your business as an entrepreneur, you've got to learn how to create that culture and the growth mindedness to continue to accelerate your business, your sales, your brand, et cetera. So this is going to be a fun one. Make sure to share it with your friends for these two professors. Again, lewishouse.com/517, and the full show notes are back there with more links to the video, to their information, et cetera, et cetera. So make sure to share it out. lewishouse.com/517. And I want to give a big shout out to the review of the week. This is from Jess Rotzgaffer, who said, "I have been following Lewis for three years now, and I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.
4:14 Lewis Howes? His heart for learning about life and sharing his stories and the stories of his guests show that humans are capable of great things, and so are you. So sit down and listen. The School of Greatness is always in session, and you're in for a real treat." So Jess, thank you so much for being the fan in the review of the week. And if you guys want to be considered as a shout out for the review of the week, make sure to go to iTunes or your podcast app and leave a review over on the School of Greatness podcast. All right, guys, it's time to dive in. If you want to learn what's your personality type as an entrepreneur and what it's going to take for you to get to the next level, then without further ado, let me introduce to you the first episode of Professor Week
4:59 Lewis Howes? with John Danner and Chris Keeney.
5:04 Lewis Howes? Welcome back, everyone, to the School of Greatness Podcast. We've got a couple of guests on today, John Danner and Chris Keeney. Good to see you, guys. Thank you for being here.
5:13 Speaker 01 Thanks, Louis.
5:14 Lewis Howes? Appreciate it. I don't know if we've had a lot of professors on, so we've got a couple of Princeton lecturers is what I heard is the correct term.
5:23 Speaker 02 Yes.
5:23 Lewis Howes? Not full-time professors. You're also a lecturer at UC Berkeley.
5:28 Speaker 01 At the business school, right.
5:29 Lewis Howes? Correct. And you're both extremely successful entrepreneurs who've done incredible things with businesses over the last many decades. And you have this book out.
5:40 Lewis Howes? Which I'm excited to dive in. It just came out. It's called Built for Growth: How Builder Personality Shapes Your Business, Your Team, and Your Ability to Win. And Chris, we were just talking about how you're saying that entrepreneurship is the ultimate team sport.
5:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:55 Lewis Howes? Now, some may think that as an entrepreneur, you've got to do it on your own. You're like a solo entrepreneur mindset. How is it actually the ultimate team sport in your mind?
6:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, I think the best entrepreneurs who scale their businesses are people who figure out how to take an idea, a team, and capital, and create value. And so what happens in that process is who you are is present all along the way. In fact, we have this phrase that John and I developed, which is who you are shapes how you build. And so it's a deeply personal thing. And it was Socrates who said, "Know thyself." And John and I really built our business and built our book around that insight.
6:40 Lewis Howes? Yeah, well, I think it's awareness is the key to being a successful entrepreneur, being aware of your talents, your personality type, isn't that right?
6:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
6:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, and I would also suggest that, as we say to our readers and students, that "antra" is the mantra of entrepreneurship, that it's all about how you You connect things, how you connect ideas, how you connect people, how you connect resources. And if you go in the dictionary, there is no such word as solopreneurship. So folks that think they can do it exclusively on their own are probably kidding themselves or building a very small business in the process. You obviously have to start with personal initiative. But if you haven't figured out a way to make your mission compatible with and of value to the other resources that you need, you probably ought to be looking for another pursuit in life.
7:27 Lewis Howes? So in order to be a successful entrepreneur, let's say success is able to grow your business, you must have a team, a successful team behind you. Is that what I'm hearing you say? You can't do it on your own, is that right?
7:39 Speaker 02 Yep, that's right. And what's fascinating about what we found in interviewing thousands of entrepreneurs is that there's not just one way to build a team. And so when we looked at a whole series of factors that make up one's personality, or we call it your builder personality, what we discovered is that there are actually four types. You know, the press wants us to believe that you have to be like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk. And in fact, that personality type exists.
8:08 Lewis Howes? Right.
8:08 Speaker 02 But it's only one of four.
8:09 Lewis Howes? This genius savant type of like...
8:11 Speaker 02 Well, it's that and it's hard. Driving and the other key aspect of it is someone who focuses more on the product than the people or the problem or perhaps the mission. In fact, John will tell you a little bit about... So the driver is this, we like to say he's product or she's product fixated, but quite different from another type that we call...
8:32 Lewis Howes? Like obsessed with the product, it's gotta be their way, it's perfect.
8:35 Speaker 02 Exactly.
8:36 Lewis Howes? So when you hear the stories of Steve Jobs punching people or throwing stuff in the fish tank or whatever, it's like, there's air bubbles in there or whatever, right?
8:44 Speaker 02 Exactly, exactly. But it's very different from the explorer. John will tell you a little bit about that.
8:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, the explorer is really the puzzle solver. The explorer is drawn to the intricacy of some challenge. And almost see the entrepreneurial activity as a way of commercializing this ingenious solution that they've come up with. They have a tendency to shift their curiosity because the next new puzzle may attract them before they've had an opportunity to fully scale.
9:11 Lewis Howes? Shiny ball syndrome.
9:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly.
9:13 Lewis Howes? It's hard to keep them focused on one thing for a few years or even a few moments.
9:17 Speaker 01 Or to recognize the diversity of the talents that they need to surround themselves with so that the business can actually scale based on that initial solution.
9:25 Lewis Howes? As opposed to just being the million dollar idea guy.
9:28 Speaker 01 That's right. No, that's right.
9:29 Lewis Howes? I've got this million dollar idea.
9:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's the first one. That's the driver. Million dollar idea.
9:33 Lewis Howes? Got it. That's not the explorer.
9:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, so that's the explorer. That's the, that's the systems. That's the systems analytic, the puzzle solver.
9:40 Lewis Howes? Puzzle solver.
9:41 Speaker 01 The puzzle solver. So the third one, the third one is what we call the crusader. And the crusader is somebody who is fundamentally inspired by a long-term vision. Sometimes not even a vision about the business per se. It, you might become an entrepreneur by accident, almost. If you think about a couple of crusaders like Ben and Jerry's. You know, is, was Ben and Jerry's created to sell ice cream or was it created to sell social change using ice cream and using the, the social benefit and the, and the quality of ingredients as a way of getting the message out to millions and millions of people. So those are the first three. And then the fourth one.
10:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, and the, the last one is the captain. And so if the first one's about product, the second is about problem, the third is about mission. The captain is really most about people. Of course, they all have to worry about people, but just like when you played sports, the captain of the team could tap the inner productivity of the team, right? Could go to the guy who's not playing well and say the right things to get him or her to play better. So the captain taps that sense of, of productivity in a way that the others don't.
10:49 Lewis Howes? Right. So if you're not a, if you're a driver, then you need a captain on your team.
10:56 Speaker 02 Such a great point, right? Such a great point.
10:59 Lewis Howes? So you can't, you can't do it on your own without having a captain.
11:01 Speaker 02 You are an amazing dude because you just went to the very last chapter where we talk about the fact that these four actually pair quite elegantly in terms of their ability to teach one another. The driver needs to learn from the captain and vice versa.
11:17 Lewis Howes? Yes.
11:17 Speaker 02 The crusader from the explorer and vice versa.
11:19 Lewis Howes? Can someone be a, all of them or mixture or is it kind of like?
11:23 Speaker 01 Well, it's interesting. You know, let's, let's use your, you were a decathlete earlier in your career, right? So we, we suggest that basically, at some point, yes, you have to know yourself. We, we pay homage to Socrates, of course. But if we were going to amend that statement, it would really be apply yourself. Use the knowledge that you have and then put it into action. And we've suggested basically that there are two fundamental strategies that people could consider. One is what we call the expert builder. The expert builder, I'll give you a current basketball example. Think about Draymond Green in the Golden Gate Warriors. The master, or the expert rather, of the defensive player on an NBA team.
12:06 Speaker 01 Somebody who hones, somebody who hones, you know, this unique strength that they have.
12:10 Lewis Howes? Yes.
12:11 Speaker 01 And then takes it to a nearly well, I mean, an all-star level. That's what we call the sort of expert dimension, and that makes a lot of sense, right? If you're a swimmer and the backstroke is your stroke and you're not that good at crawler, not that good at butterfly, okay, stay with your original stroke and set the records there.
12:26 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
12:27 Speaker 01 But there's another strategy, which is what we call the master builder strategy. And that's more like the decathlete. That's somebody who basically says, hey, I may not be as great in every one of these activities, but I need to expand my repertoire to include a lot of different pieces of it.
12:42 Lewis Howes? Multiple tools.
12:43 Speaker 01 Exactly.
12:44 Lewis Howes? It's not one tool is the best.
12:45 Speaker 01 You still are the same person that you started off being. It's just that now your repertoire is a bit more diverse. If you, if I wanted to use the piano example, suddenly I'm not just playing jazz. I can play symphonies, I can play improv, I can play up and down all 88 keys. That's what we're talking about with the master strategy.
13:02 Lewis Howes? Who is that person? Is that the captain or is that a separate?
13:05 Speaker 01 How about Roger Federer as an example out of sports? Somebody who, it's pretty hard to find a weakness in Federer's game.
13:13 Lewis Howes? Jordan's similar, right?
13:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly. And each can be, each can be great in their own way and each can contribute to the success of a business. So we suggest that people consider which of those two approaches is the best for them to start with and then recognize whichever one they pursue, there's another one available to them.
13:32 Lewis Howes? Yeah. So the person, the Federer, what personality type is he?
13:37 Speaker 02 Well, each of the types can aspire to be Federer-like. So, the way a driver becomes Federer-like is he starts to take on, or she starts to take on, some of the qualities of the captain.
13:50 Lewis Howes? Got it. You take on a little bit of everything.
13:52 Speaker 02 That's right. That's right. And so, what we found is you have this sort of homeroom. You have this originating sense. So, we were talking before we started here. And our guess is that you're a driver.
14:03 Lewis Howes? Driver.
14:03 Speaker 02 That you're about the product. You're very driven.
14:07 Lewis Howes? Yes.
14:07 Speaker 02 You want to have impact. You're very high expectations of your team. You probably hire and recruit the very best people. And if somebody isn't at your level of expertise...
14:20 Lewis Howes? We should have these folks...
14:22 Speaker 02 They're gone.
14:23 Lewis Howes? I'm pissed that I'm resenting myself, resenting them, and then, yes.
14:27 Speaker 02 So, you know, our coaching to somebody like you would be, how about finding a mentor or watching the success of a captain? There's a finesse that the captain uses. Because I can say this because I'm a fellow driver. In fact, maybe a recovering driver would be the right term.
14:41 Lewis Howes? Sure.
14:41 Speaker 02 So, I look and am inspired by captains.
14:45 Lewis Howes? Yeah. No, I think there's definitely a lot I could do better in every category. But I also see like myself a little bit in each category as well. And I think, I don't know, you guys tell me if I'm wrong. I think the highest level of leadership is probably learning how to master each one of them and being able to flex in any moment. I need to be the captain in this moment. I need to rally the troops. I need to get us back on mission. I need to put people in their place. I need to be focused on the product. I need to be focused on the systems right in this moment. Like, our systems are broken. I need to make sure I'm working with the person who's doing that so that we're on board with the mission. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong.
15:19 Speaker 02 No, I think, I think building on your point, one of the things that we examined is, who are these people? And then, what are the core steps to building a business? So, how do you go from your concept, as you did with this great business, to actually making it a reality?
15:34 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
15:34 Speaker 02 What are those steps? How do you recruit a team? How do you bring the money in and raise the capital? And so, may perhaps we could talk a little bit about how some of these guys do this differently so that there's some practical advice that your listeners...
15:48 Lewis Howes? I think a lot of my listeners want to know, how do you find the right person to hire? Like, how do you find the person that competes me? Especially the solo entrepreneur who's, okay, now I've been doing everything on my own and I've only gotten it to a certain point. Now, I need to hire... I just got an email a day of someone saying... How do I find the right project manager? What do I look for?
16:07 Speaker 02 Right.
16:07 Lewis Howes? How do I find a co-founder who can support me? You know, I'm more of a team captain. I need someone to drive this product home.
16:14 Speaker 02 So why don't we talk a little bit about each of those? Why don't we start with co-founder?
16:17 Speaker 01 Yeah. So, so one of the things about finding a co-founder, I mean, it's a relationship that arguably you're as likely to spend more time with somebody you're building a business with than somebody you're living with.
16:27 Lewis Howes? Partner.
16:27 Speaker 01 Exactly. So it has a different form of intimacy, but you have that, you have that exclusivity and you have the intensity of a relationship that goes on day in, day out, nights and the like.
16:40 Lewis Howes? And should you have a co-founder?
16:42 Speaker 01 Well, it's a personal, it's a, it's a personal choice. What, what we've, what we've suggested in the book is that too many entrepreneurs, when they think about co-founders, you immediately jump into the land of capital N negotiation. That somehow or another, we're automatically talking about how we're going to split the pie and immediately we're negotiating with one another in almost an adversarial way. What we suggest is start off with something much more like a conversation because oftentimes the issues that motivate me or you are going to be quite different and there's a way to fit them together so that we can work more effectively as team members on an equal basis, whether we share equally in the ownership of the business or not. Secondly, the, the issue of knowing which type you are most likely defaulting to, you
17:27 Speaker 01 know, in tennis, are you more likely to want to hit, wants the hits from your backstroke or your, or your forestroke, you know, whatever it may be. The question is, knowing which type you are, gives you a choice of saying, do I want a mini me? Do I want somebody else like me because the two of us will be in sync, we'll have the same level of intensity and the like? Or do I want somebody who complements me? What Rick, what, what, what Chris and I have called the polar complements, like the captain, driver complementarity that we talked about earlier. So, understanding who you are, getting a sense of who the other person is and seeing where those points of potential friction and compatibility are in a conversational sense may be the best way to get started down this path.
18:09 Lewis Howes? Sure.
18:10 Speaker 01 Drivers have a hard time with other drivers. I mean, heck, one of the challenges of being a driver is, we all like to think that we're great to work with and work for, but.
18:18 Speaker 02 We are.
18:19 Speaker 01 But if you, if you ask the folks who've been on our teams, you know, drivers can be pretty intense as bosses.
18:27 Lewis Howes? Sure.
18:27 Speaker 02 Does this sound familiar by any chance?
18:29 Lewis Howes? I don't know, ask them. Ask them.
18:31 Speaker 01 Not so much, not so much for captains. Captains are pretty good at the whole team dynamic. Captains, captains are much more comfortable in managing around the we first rather than the me. They're still decisive. They're still, they're still focused on what needs to get done. But they do it in a different kind of way and they're comfortable with having more fingerprints on the decision-making process.
18:51 Lewis Howes? Sure.
18:51 Speaker 01 Whereas explorers and Crusaders do it even differently still.
18:55 Lewis Howes? So if you're, so if you're a, an entrepreneur and you're making, you know, a hundred thousand to a million dollars, let's say, and you've got a couple of people on your team, but you haven't really figured out your team yet. You're just like, I just had this idea, I started running with it, people, I found a need.
19:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:11 Lewis Howes? I started solving the problem for people.
19:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:13 Lewis Howes? And now I have something and I'm just trying to make more money and now figure it all out.
19:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:16 Lewis Howes? I think it's a lot of people where they're at. They're like, I just made a hundred grand and now what do I do? Like, how do I systematize this? How do I know who's the hire? How do I do this? Who, who am I? You know, it's like.
19:26 Speaker 01 It's a good problem to have though.
19:27 Lewis Howes? Right? Yeah.
19:28 Speaker 02 Yeah. So there are really two parts to that question. What's the role? Do I need marketing?
19:32 Lewis Howes? Yes.
19:32 Speaker 02 Distribution, sales?
19:34 Lewis Howes? Financial person, yeah.
19:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, exactly. And then what's the mindset of the person that you're hiring? I think one of the things that a lot of entrepreneurs do wrong is they think what they need without thinking about what the employee or the potential employee needs. So in our book, we talk about answering three questions. The first question is, where is this person in his or her career arc? Are they already senior or experienced?
19:59 Lewis Howes? Yes.
19:59 Speaker 02 And, and, and expert? So they're going to come in, they know exactly how to do the job? Or are they at the beginning?
20:05 Lewis Howes? Just kind of train them up and.
20:06 Speaker 02 Exactly. Cause that has a profound impact on, on, on how it's going to work out. The, the, the second one is, how exactly, uh, does this person operate in the context of the work? So do they like a lot of rules? Or do they like much more free form?
20:23 Speaker 01 Flexibility, yeah.
20:24 Speaker 02 Because this is a fundamental, even in a two-person business, you know, are you going to tell me everything I need to do?
20:29 Speaker 01 Right, right.
20:29 Speaker 02 Or are you going to say, you know, you figure it out? So when you start to look at these different perspectives of the potential employee, you can actually match that much better to who you are. So here's an example. A driver tends to want a more senior expert. You're going to be responsible for this. I want you to do it. I expect you to do it really well.
20:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:48 Speaker 02 And tends to be a little bit more rule-bound because you have high expectations. You're not going to say, "Go make it up and let me know how it works out," right?
20:56 Speaker 01 Right.
20:57 Speaker 02 So this matching, and John and I talk a lot about the fit, the fit between the founder and the team, the fit between, as we were just talking about, the co-founders or among the co-founders, really, really important. And it starts with who are you? And then who are they? And what are the dimensions of matching?
21:14 Speaker 01 The challenge of scaling, Chris and I like to boil it down, that the challenge of scale is, how do you go from self to system? How do you extract the best of who you are as a builder, as a founder, as an entrepreneur? And imprint it on a culture, imprint it on an infrastructure, so that the full commercial benefit of the ideas that you've come up with, that couldn't have been done without you, where you started off doing everything all at once, what's the best of that, the essence of that, that can be the basis of that new, kind of, if you will, the DNA of a scaled enterprise?
21:48 Speaker 02 Right, right. And you've probably experienced this in building your business, right? I bet that if we would talk to any of the people who work with you, they would be able to say exactly what your expectations are. How you want them to operate, what the end goal is, how your viewers, readers, and people who consume your product actually experience it, right? Because you've worked really hard to choose them based on what motivates them.
22:10 Speaker 01 Right.
22:11 Speaker 02 You've trained and directed them very clearly. And now they are a manifestation of what you're creating here.
22:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely.
22:17 Speaker 02 Incredibly important and doesn't happen by accident, right?
22:20 Speaker 01 Right, right, exactly, yeah.
22:22 Speaker 02 But...
22:23 Speaker 01 You've got just one door into the world of entrepreneurial success. There are three other folks out there doing it in their own way.
22:30 Lewis Howes? Creating a personality type.
22:31 Speaker 01 Exactly, and creating comparable success, but with a completely different pattern. Basically, when you start to look at it, and the reason we were able to do it is because of the methodology that Chris developed at his former firm, Rosetta, which was the world leader in developing this kind of personality-based clustering to decode customer behavior. We took that methodology and moved it upstream to try to decode, if you will, the personality characteristics at the center, the who at the center of entrepreneurship. Because you know as well as anybody out there that there are gazillion resources on the what to do and how to do it.
23:08 Lewis Howes? Yeah, exactly.
23:09 Speaker 01 What we wanted to do is really acknowledge the greatness and the helpfulness of those kinds of resources, but really focus on that central issue. Who drives this success in an entrepreneurial context?
23:19 Speaker 02 Yeah, just a quick note, you know, any of your viewers or listeners can actually find out what type they are in just a matter of seconds. We have a website out there. It's www.builtforgrowth.com.
23:31 Speaker 01 Okay.
23:32 Speaker 02 And there are just 10 questions. We've been able to distill hundreds and hundreds of questions down to 10 simple questions, and then immediately you discover what type you are and get a lot of other information.
23:43 Lewis Howes? Like a little quiz.
23:44 Speaker 02 Exactly.
23:45 Lewis Howes? What are a couple of the questions?
23:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, so one of the questions is, would your friends consider you a control freak? Agree, one. Disagree, seven. So you get a whole spectrum of answers.
23:59 Lewis Howes? Sure.
24:00 Speaker 02 And it's interesting, the explorer, that is the, not the driver, but the one right next door in our structure, 100% of people we interviewed said, yes, everybody considers me a control freak.
24:11 Lewis Howes? Explorer.
24:12 Speaker 02 Explorer.
24:13 Lewis Howes? Explorer's the one that does what?
24:14 Speaker 02 Because they're the ones who are curious about the problem. They have a kind of mechanized view of the way things work. And then they capitalize on it by building a business around it. And the people who work for them are expected to do it exactly like they-
24:29 Lewis Howes? Is this like based on a system or processes?
24:31 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:31 Lewis Howes? They like build out the maps?
24:32 Speaker 02 Exactly, yeah, exactly right.
24:34 Speaker 01 They love to think in equations.
24:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, so we think of Jeff Bezos as an example of this, right? I mean, he looked at all of commerce, before we even called it e-commerce, and said, "Wait a minute, this system is imperfect. How about the role of the internet? How about the fact that we can actually start delivering product directly to people's households?" And he is systematically, basically, eliminating many, many retail-
24:59 Lewis Howes? Crazy, isn't it?
25:00 Speaker 02 Stores, yeah, yeah. But it takes, in fact, here's a funny story. You know Jeff Bezos actually took his crib apart as a kid?
25:08 Lewis Howes? No way.
25:08 Speaker 02 I mean, that's curiosity.
25:10 Lewis Howes? Wow.
25:10 Speaker 02 And tenacity.
25:11 Lewis Howes? His crib apart.
25:12 Speaker 02 Isn't that unbelievable?
25:13 Lewis Howes? I'm not sleeping in this thing.
25:14 Speaker 02 Right, so talk about being hardwired. I mean, this guy was, was just so curious.
25:18 Lewis Howes? How everything built, and so he can question, "Why was this built this way? It's ineffective," or, yeah.
25:23 Speaker 01 And, and, and that kind of mind is, is constantly rearranging the pieces of the puzzle.
25:28 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
25:28 Speaker 01 Right, so you don't-
25:29 Lewis Howes? As things evolve.
25:30 Speaker 01 It's right. You don't tend, you don't tend to fall in love with the product the way that a driver sometimes can stay too much in love for too long with the product that was his or her, you know, original brain, brainstream. But the explorer takes it apart, puts it back together, almost, it's almost like recombinant entrepreneurship, you know? So in Bezos's case, just think about how many different ways he's sliced and diced the fundamental business that he starts with. How he thinks about brand, how he thinks about customer relationship, how he uses data about the full transactional flow and the, and the start to finish of the customer experience. And then says, "Okay, what if I built a business around that piece, which is a behind the, behind the scenes, backdoor piece of the business?
26:14 Speaker 01 And suddenly you turn around and we were able to interview the person who created Amazon Web Services." That's an example. You know, web services was necessary for the original business, but now it became a freestanding business of its own as part of the Amazon family that is a powerhouse globally.
26:30 Speaker 02 You know, it might be kind of interesting. We talked a lot about guys. Let's talk about some women entrepreneurs, because we got the chance to interview some fascinating.
26:38 Lewis Howes? Did you interview Sarah Blakely, by any chance?
26:40 Speaker 02 We did not get the chance to talk to her directly.
26:43 Lewis Howes? She's unbelievable.
26:43 Speaker 02 Yeah, so we talk about, oh, you did?
26:45 Lewis Howes? She's amazing, yeah.
26:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:46 Speaker 01 She's an explorer.
26:47 Speaker 02 She's a great example of explorer, right? Because she looked at Penney's and she looked at girls and she said, this is.
26:52 Lewis Howes? She's deconstructed and it's like, this doesn't work.
26:54 Speaker 02 Exactly, exactly. But there's another pair of founders in New York that have created a company called Rent the Runway.
27:02 Lewis Howes? Oh, yeah.
27:02 Speaker 02 Fantastic idea. I have them to my class. Exactly, and they're both named Jen, Jen and Jenny. And their vision was, young women want that Cinderella moment. So the founding vision, they happen to be crusaders, or at least Jenny Flies, who we talked to is. So she wanted to bring this incredible moment to reality for girls who couldn't afford to buy a $1,500 dress. So the concept was, as you know, let's go out and negotiate purchasing these dresses and then rent them, and then re-rent them, and the average dress is rented something like 30 or 40 times. It's a fantastic business.
27:43 Speaker 02 But it all started with this idea of the fact that, what can we do for young women? How can we make them feel like Cinderella when they go to the prom or they go? Yeah, and then maybe we should talk a little bit about Marjorie Kraus.
27:56 Speaker 01 Marjorie Kraus is the founder of one of the largest, if not the largest privately-held PR firms in the world. She started off as a teacher, a civics teacher, and has ended up basically applying that kind of facilitated, learning-focused, let's figure out how we can help one another, approach to PR, and created a different model that was very team-based. Lawyers and PR people and issue people and media people, et cetera, to help their clients solve these integrated issues of, how do I get along better with a government agency? Or how do we position our company? Or how do we deal with a disaster that may have happened to us? And Marjorie's entire approach is the captain's approach.
28:39 Speaker 01 You can see it in how she positions herself, you can see it in how she leads, even the language that she uses is very much team-centric. The last thing she would, I think, want anybody to say in encountering her is that, "Hey, that's Marjorie's way of doing things," or "We do things because Marjorie told us to do it." She would much rather have a culture in which people do what they otherwise are inclined to do, and she's there to basically empower and support them. With accountability.
29:07 Speaker 02 Right.
29:08 Speaker 01 With accountability.
29:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
29:10 Speaker 01 This is not let a thousand flowers bloom and see what happens.
29:11 Lewis Howes? No, I'd say, "Here's where we're going. Let's stay on track."
29:14 Speaker 01 Exactly. And when we use the term captain, you've obviously had a very extensive sports career. The kind of captain we have in mind here is the player captain. Somebody who's on the field.
29:24 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
29:25 Speaker 01 But acting as the captain. It's not the captain of the ship necessarily, or the coach on the sidelines. No, this is a person who's in the middle of the game.
29:31 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
29:32 Speaker 02 You grew up in Columbus, is that right?
29:34 Lewis Howes? Near Columbus, Delaware, Ohio.
29:35 Speaker 02 So, one of the other captains whom we met is a woman named Cindy Monroe. This is an incredible story. So she and a number of women in her church group were trying to figure out how to make a little bit more money to take some of the financial pressures off the family. And she developed a bag, like a handbag, that was particularly successful, and she figured out how to manufacture it. And then they built other products, and it's basically 100,000 women across the country today, multi-hundred million dollars, almost billion dollars in sales. And she started in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and moved her entire company, actually, to Columbus, Ohio, because she wanted to tap into some of the e-commerce talent in your old backyard.
30:20 Speaker 02 And when she moved the company, she found that some of the people she had brought had not actually grown with the company in the same way. And this happens with very fast-growing companies. Sometimes the company grows faster than the team does. And so a captain holds people accountable, is very clear in direction, and then when people fail, they honorably remove those folks.
30:42 Lewis Howes? Yeah. Say, "This is what we expect."
30:44 Speaker 02 Exactly.
30:45 Lewis Howes? If you're not hitting this or making it happen, then...
30:47 Speaker 02 Yep, yep. And they're open, honest, supporting, but after several tries, if the person doesn't achieve that goal, then they're...
30:55 Lewis Howes? They're not a good fit.
30:57 Speaker 02 Exactly right.
30:58 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
30:59 Speaker 02 And so she was in this situation. She moved her company to Columbus.
31:01 Speaker 01 Yeah, those kinds of folks would not have lasted very long in a driver run.
31:06 Lewis Howes? Right, with Jobs. Yeah, Steve Jobs. Exactly. So what's the, uh, what's the most effective personality type? Or is there one that's the most successful in building a business?
31:16 Speaker 01 No, there is, there is no hierarchy here.
31:18 Lewis Howes? Really?
31:19 Speaker 01 No, no.
31:20 Lewis Howes? Driver of the best.
31:21 Speaker 01 There are, there are, there are.
31:22 Speaker 02 Just ask us, we'll tell you.
31:23 Speaker 01 That's right, that's right. As, as much as you'd like to think you're the sort of king of the crop, no, you're just one of a quartet.
31:30 Lewis Howes? Got it.
31:30 Speaker 01 Uh, and there are fabulous examples of huge businesses.
31:33 Lewis Howes? Each personality type.
31:35 Speaker 01 And across the industry landscape too. Um, you know, you can pick almost any industry and say, we're, here are examples of how that particular kind of company has been built differently by four different types. And you can turn it around and say, if I know only which builder type you are, I can pretty much predict what kinds of issues you're likely to encounter. Where, which things are going to be easier for you? Which things may be more difficult for you as you try to move from a startup to a standout organization?
32:03 Speaker 02 This is the real power of it because if you know which type you are, we can actually predict, as John just said, this pattern of success and failure. So you can actually see over the next hill, what are you going to run into?
32:16 Lewis Howes? Right. So what am I going to need? To grow, to get to the next level?
32:20 Speaker 01 You started us off in this, you know, I, it, you may not need a co-founder, but you might want somebody who has a kind of captain's instinct. Uh, and who, and who can hold their own with you and against you.
32:32 Lewis Howes? Right.
32:32 Speaker 01 In an argument where you come in saying, hey, I'm Lewis, I know what the heck we want to get done here.
32:37 Lewis Howes? Right, right, right.
32:38 Speaker 01 Let's not, you know, I think you all agree with me, don't you? No, that's not going to cut it. Because sooner or later, the difficulty is however talented the team is that you've surrounded yourself with, at some point, everybody's making a decision. How much can I challenge you? Is it, is it still safe for my job? Is it still safe for me to be in this organization? When I know he's wrong, when I think I've got a better idea, but I'm not going to go up against the force of personality that I see coming directed at me.
33:03 Lewis Howes? Sure.
33:04 Speaker 01 That's the kind of place where a captain or somebody with that kind of instinct can say, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second, wait a second. At the end of the day. You may be better off, both personally and organizationally, to have people who feel a greater sense of ownership of what you could together are doing and back off a bit, give them a little bit of room and play listener rather than leader a little bit more. So that's just one idea. Now, you know, you can learn also from the other folks. You can learn from an explorer. You can learn from a crusader as well. Crusaders are great.
33:36 Lewis Howes? But a driver probably needs a captain by his or her side to really make sure it's kind of balancing out the teams.
33:42 Speaker 01 Whether that's a coach, whether that's somebody in your company, whether it's a co-founder, but there's a perspective there that is probably not one that comes naturally to you.
33:51 Lewis Howes? Got it. Got it. I think I have that person. So I think Matt's that person, obviously. So my, you haven't met Matt, but yeah, he's very.
33:59 Speaker 02 And he feels empowered and he can tell.
34:02 Lewis Howes? Yeah, we played college football together too. So he's known me for a long time. Yeah, he can challenge me pretty much anything. And I mean, ultimately, if I'm like, no, I don't like that, then, but I respect his judgment and his opinion. And I'm always like, yeah, you're probably right on a lot of stuff. So it's good to have that kind of balance.
34:18 Speaker 02 Do you see raising capital for your, for your business to go further faster?
34:22 Lewis Howes? Um, you know, I've had offers for people that wanted to invest, especially this year. But I just started from literally not just sweat equity to not having, you know, I was in three credit cards and debt and student loans. So I didn't have this like surge of money to invest in. And I think it was actually.
34:40 Speaker 02 Which creates good discipline.
34:41 Lewis Howes? Yeah. And it keeps me very kind of like power of broke mindset of like, we've always got to be just resourceful in our ideas and our hustle and our energy and invest wisely the money that we do have back into the brand and the business and the growth, marketing, stuff like that. Um, I don't know. I think.
35:01 Speaker 02 Let me tell you a quick personal story because I built a business that reached 250 million dollars. We brought outside capital in. We were about 45 million dollars. Four years later, we were 250 million dollars in business, in revenue and sold the business for 600 million dollars, a little less.
35:17 Lewis Howes? Very good. Congrats on that.
35:18 Speaker 02 Thank you, dude.
35:19 Lewis Howes? Nice.
35:19 Speaker 02 So, so at the right time. Bringing outside capital in can allow you to go further.
35:26 Lewis Howes? Really? Okay. But what if you don't use it the right way? Or how do you know? How do you know it's the right time?
35:32 Speaker 01 That's the, that's the issue of this fit between the builder and the investor or the backer. And too many folks, when they get to a point where you need capital, regardless of whether it's right up front or after you've built something and proven it, now you want to take it to the, to the heights. Too many people say, I need money and wherever it comes from, I'll take it. There's just as much alignment need and just as much of a need to feel what's the kind of fit between who I am as a builder and who you are as an investor, not just in terms of risk reward, you know, ratios and those kinds of things. But are you the kind of person from an investor point of view that I can leverage beyond the money that I'm going to get from you? Are you the kind of person who has the same kind of tenacity that has the same ability to complement?
36:16 Speaker 01 How I would drive this business in the absence of our relationship to maybe do something better that together that we either of us could do on our own. So there's that same question of trying to find the type of investor, both by style, by role, by stage and by size that matches what you're trying to do. And too often, the, talk about the shiny object in front of you. A big check with a lot of zeros and a lot of commas is a very seductive kind of thing. The difficulty is that builders sometimes move rapidly to get that, only to realize that they, they basically bought themselves into the wrong kind of marriage.
36:52 Speaker 02 Yeah. So a concrete example, perhaps for you, if we could get a little personal.
36:56 Lewis Howes? Let's do it.
36:57 Speaker 02 So, so drivers tend to be so excited about their idea that sometimes they oversell the idea. And the investor comes in at too high a valuation and then has a hard time making money. And then a friction starts to develop because you're passionate about your idea. And the investor actually wants to force you to do other things to get the return.
37:17 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
37:17 Speaker 02 So if you strike a fair deal.
37:20 Lewis Howes? That's what I.
37:20 Speaker 02 You don't oversell the idea. And I would guess, given how passionate you are about where you want to take your platform and you've you've shared with us, you want to take it into spirituality and you've got all the, you want an investor who's equally passionate about your vision, right? And as John said, a lot of drivers and a lot of other of our personality types actually choose the investor for the wrong reason. The ego of a big valuation, the ego of some famous investor.
37:47 Lewis Howes? The ego of a big check or whatever.
37:48 Speaker 02 Exactly. What you really want is someone who has a shared vision. And in order to achieve that, you really have to understand what builder personality you are.
37:56 Lewis Howes? Hmm. And I think you have to understand where you want to go.
37:59 Speaker 02 Crucial.
38:00 Lewis Howes? I think I've been offered money by a few different people and, you know, other people are just like, I wish I could invest in you. And I think it's challenging for, for me, I'll just speak openly. And I think some people who have no listening, who have kind of like this personal brand behind their business too. It's almost why I try to separate my name from my brand more and more. I call it more the school of greatness as opposed to the Lewis Howes show or whatever. And I think it's like people who are kind of attached to this brand, their own personality. How do they separate, you know, it's like a Tony Robbins person. How does he separate in getting investors, but also not selling his name?
38:35 Speaker 02 Yep.
38:35 Lewis Howes? Quote unquote. Um, so I think it's kind of interesting when we're in the educational space online. It's like, how do I?
38:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:42 Lewis Howes? Know when it's going to be the right time.
38:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
38:44 Lewis Howes? When I'm not even clear if I want to exit anytime in the next five to 10 years. Personally, just because I haven't explored it enough because I, I'm like, I don't know what else I'd do. I'd love to.
38:54 Speaker 02 And some investors.
38:55 Lewis Howes? I would just recreate the same thing and.
38:58 Speaker 01 Not with a non-compete clause.
38:59 Lewis Howes? Right, exactly. Yeah.
39:00 Speaker 02 So some investors want to exit. Other investors may give you the capital and want to ride alongside for as long as you want to do it.
39:07 Lewis Howes? And there's other partnership opportunities with them and they're a part of it. And you're paying them out every year, a certain dividend or.
39:14 Speaker 02 Lots of different ways of doing it. But I think you may.
39:16 Lewis Howes? So you don't have to do it to exit.
39:17 Speaker 02 You don't, you don't because different, different investors have different investment horizons and, and structures and goals. But I think you're right. It starts with the key question, what the heck am I going to do with this money?
39:26 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
39:27 Speaker 02 And in making the compromise of bringing somebody else into my business, what's the, you know, get to the, for the give? What are you going to be able to go into new geographies? You're going to be able to go into new verticals?
39:38 Lewis Howes? Hire new people, yeah.
39:39 Speaker 02 Hire people faster, whatever.
39:40 Speaker 01 Translate into Mandarin, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
39:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
39:43 Lewis Howes? What do you think, so you think it's better to bring on an investment in your business if you want to grow? Or is it okay to use the capital you already have saved and put that back in your business?
39:53 Speaker 02 That's always the better way to go. The second way.
39:56 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
39:56 Speaker 02 Always better way to go up to the point at which your capital constraint, in other words, your business isn't throwing off enough capital and it's actually slowing you down.
40:05 Lewis Howes? So how much do you want to be bringing in every month? Or how much, I guess, core capital target do you want to have in the bank for?
40:11 Speaker 02 I don't think there's any real empirical number. It's really you.
40:14 Lewis Howes? What you feel comfortable with.
40:15 Speaker 02 What you feel comfortable with? And then what would you use the money for? I like John's point, would you translate into Mandarin? What does that cost? Is that more than the money you have in the bank or go into another vertical?
40:26 Lewis Howes? Do you guys believe you should be investing a lot of your money and resources back into the business as much as humanly possible?
40:32 Speaker 02 For sure, in the early days for sure.
40:34 Lewis Howes? Just allow for bigger growth?
40:35 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:36 Speaker 01 It's not just to allow for bigger growth. You know, every business has to start with a lot of confidence and hubris, right? I mean, people wouldn't do entrepreneurship if they were of the faint of heart, right? You've got to think that you've got an idea that beats the status quo at the very least, because that's the biggest competitor any entrepreneur faces. So you're out there basically acting on an assertion. You know, I know something that nobody else knows yet, and I'm going to basically create a story that I can tell and sell around, and a story that I can gel a team around. So telling, selling, and gelling is part of what I do, right?
41:08 Lewis Howes? Sounds like a shoe sole. So, did you guys see those commercials?
41:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, the gelin.
41:14 Lewis Howes? The gelin, yeah, yeah.
41:15 Speaker 01 So you end up sort of acting on your own assertion, your own sense of confidence. But sometimes being willing to invest back in is a matter of buying learning. It's buying the learning that can come from saying, how do we test this? What experiments am I running right now in my business? What are the three or four assumptions that I'm making? That if I could just test a little bit more, I'd be that much more confident about this strategy change, or that strategy change, or this tweak in my product, or that person even.
41:44 Lewis Howes? So it's research and development, essentially?
41:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, but it's about the continued discovery of what, and pushing the boundaries of what you really do know as opposed to what you act like you know, and what the business can act on. Then sometimes investing in your business is a good way to invest in yourself and your own knowledge, your own learning.
42:02 Speaker 02 There is a point where you want to start taking shekels off the table, though. Right?
42:07 Lewis Howes? Just paying yourself a little more.
42:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, you've worked really hard. Every business has some set of risks, some of which are imaginable, some of which are unimaginable. And you've worked so hard to create something of value, you do want to make sure that you're putting it away in some form. And this is the motivation a lot of entrepreneurs are sparked by when they think about bringing outside capital in. They think, I've created a business of 100. I'm willing to sell you 15 and I'd like to take 15 and put it in the bank. So I can pay off my mortgage or I can make sure my kid's college is taken care of or whatever it is.
42:46 Lewis Howes? Right.
42:46 Speaker 02 So I think it is important, once you've gotten to a certain threshold, to actually start taking a few dollars off the table.
42:54 Lewis Howes? What do you think, there's a great book, this one actually, right here, I don't know if you guys have read this one, The One Thing. Have you guys seen this yet?
43:01 Speaker 01 No.
43:01 Lewis Howes? It's all about having one core thing that you focus on and making that the best thing as a product, service. You know, I've got multiple products and services and sometimes I feel like I've got too many ideas that I want to execute on and are they going to all be at a lower level because I'm working on too much? Or should it just be one thing we do over better than anyone else and that's the only thing we do?
43:25 Speaker 01 All right, so.
43:25 Speaker 02 We were talking about a version of this at lunch today.
43:27 Speaker 01 I think, I think the question here is, you've got to recognize there's a completely other point of view and both can be right. So let me just connect that idea back with something that Chris and I are familiar with. There was a guy at Harvard Business School named Fred, how does he pronounce his name?
43:42 Speaker 02 Worsoma.
43:43 Speaker 01 Worsoma. And he had a very famous book at the time called The Strategy of Market Leaders, right? And his approach was very much consistent with the one thing. Only he said, basically, companies can pick one of three targets, right? You can be product excellent, you can be operationally superb, or you can be customer intimate, right? And don't try to be two of those things, don't try to be all three, you water down everything.
44:07 Lewis Howes? Really?
44:07 Speaker 01 So his was very much about, pick the focus, that's how you become a strategic leader. That makes a lot of sense, right? Because every entrepreneur struggles with the tension between focus and flexibility, right? You want to do this, but on the other hand, an opportunity comes in and you suddenly turn around and say, "Okay, I'll go over here. That's part of my strategy too." And somebody over here says something else, right? So that focus flexibility is part of the entrepreneurial challenge every day.
44:31 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
44:32 Speaker 01 Here's my challenge on that one. Is Amazon only a one thing company? Is Southwest Airlines only a one thing company? I think increasingly, the success, if you're going to be, if you want to succeed in a globally competitive market, particularly one in which brands are setting expectations for customers across the board. How do you, when somebody, when somebody buys this bottle of water, they're affected by, "How could Amazon have gotten me that water?" Right? They've, it colors their expectation. Did Amazon, could Amazon get me this tomorrow as opposed to, "Do I have to go to a store to get it, etc.?" So I think the way industries are now coming together and brands are being threatened,
45:16 Speaker 01 it may be that you have to be all three of those things as table stakes for success.
45:21 Lewis Howes? What are the three again?
45:22 Speaker 01 Operational excellence, right? You're great in the back office, you've got very smooth business processes and that sort of thing.
45:28 Lewis Howes? Systems.
45:29 Speaker 01 Product excellence, product excellence, you've got God's gift to, you know, a laptop or God's gift to publishing or whatever it may be. Or customer intimacy. I know my customers better than anybody else.
45:39 Lewis Howes? You have to master them all, right?
45:41 Speaker 01 That's, that's, that's my, that's-
45:43 Lewis Howes? If you're good at like loving on your customers when they're complaining.
45:46 Speaker 01 Exactly, exactly. So I think, I think the idea of, of single-mindedly focusing on one thing, if you're going to do that, you've got to make sure you are at least at a, not leadership level, but at least at a competitive level in those other dimensions of your business. Because that's what your customers are going to demand.
46:05 Lewis Howes? Now, are there any examples of companies that have one product, that they do the product so great, it's the only thing they do, the operations is great, and what's the third thing?
46:15 Speaker 01 Customer intimacy.
46:16 Lewis Howes? Customer experience is great, their intimacy. Is there, is there companies that you know that are just like, this is all they do is one product or one service?
46:21 Speaker 02 Yeah, or, or one kind of originating idea that then gets sliced and diced a lot of different ways.
46:28 Speaker 01 Well, I was, I was going to give you the example of, of- Of, uh, oh, the, the, the guys that went out of business with, with the iPhone, Blackberries.
46:36 Lewis Howes? Oh, yeah, rim, rim.
46:38 Speaker 01 Yeah, rim. I mean.
46:40 Lewis Howes? They had one thing. That was.
46:41 Speaker 01 One product that was pretty, pretty great.
46:43 Lewis Howes? Huge for a while.
46:44 Speaker 01 Pretty great.
46:44 Lewis Howes? And then they didn't innovate, right?
46:45 Speaker 01 That's right.
46:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:46 Speaker 01 They got, they got cut in their, they got caught in their own cul-de-sac, right?
46:49 Lewis Howes? Industries evolve and change as the Ubers of the world and the Airbnbs and all these other companies evolve, the Amazons, we have to learn how to evolve and innovate, right?
46:58 Speaker 01 I think that's right. And you have to recognize that the traditional boundaries of your industry are probably changing before you even can even recognize.
47:04 Lewis Howes? So quickly. I mean.
47:05 Speaker 01 And, and, and you can look no further than find, find the experiences that your customers are having.
47:11 Lewis Howes? Mm-hmm.
47:11 Speaker 01 That they want to talk to their friends about, regardless of what products evolve, what industries evolve. And see, ask yourself, what I sometimes ask, ask clients and students, I say WWGD. People look at me and say, what, what's that mean? I said, what would Google do?
47:26 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
47:26 Speaker 01 Because what Google does more often than not is answer with the scariest word in the business vocabulary. Free. Free. Think about it. Did you get your check from Google last week?
47:38 Lewis Howes? Did I get a check? No.
47:39 Speaker 01 Oh, really? You're kidding me.
47:40 Lewis Howes? I might've actually got some like commissions or something, but yeah, no, I didn't get a check from Google.
47:44 Speaker 01 Just imagine, you know, all of us are working for Google, except for North Korea and China. They figured out a business model that uses all of us, but we're not paid anything.
47:54 Lewis Howes? We're not being paid for it, yeah.
47:55 Speaker 01 They have, they have figured out a way to monetize what, how we search, how we do mashups.
47:59 Lewis Howes? Yes.
47:59 Speaker 01 How we think about using Google Docs and the, and the like.
48:02 Lewis Howes? Everything.
48:02 Speaker 01 Pretty clever.
48:03 Lewis Howes? Voice, video, everything. Yeah. Um, oh gosh, what was I gonna say here? I had a thought.
48:11 Speaker 02 While you're thinking about that, I'm just curious as to how you read that book with your, with respect to your business.
48:17 Lewis Howes? The one thing?
48:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:18 Lewis Howes? I was, I think it's more of a mindset of like having one great, um, using your strengths and like maximizing that strength.
48:25 Speaker 02 Right. Cause, cause this is how I, I, I, I agree with a lot of what John said. I think another way to. And sort of address this question is, what's the unifying thing that gets you up in the morning? The lens through which you think about all kinds of things in life, like your new book coming out, right?
48:45 Lewis Howes? Yes.
48:45 Speaker 02 What's that unifying thing? And then what are the many ways you can actually deliver? You've done a masterful job of taking content and figuring out all the different ways you can distribute it. Those aren't different businesses. There's this one thing or series of things that you're passionate about.
49:01 Lewis Howes? The essence of it, yeah.
49:02 Speaker 02 Exactly. And for me, that one thing has been, why do people do what they do? And I went into marketing because of that. I built a business around that. I teach around that. John and I wrote a book that touches on it. So I think if you're really lucky, you stumble on this curiosity or passion around which so much of your career and professional satisfaction can come. I mean, you started as a terrific athlete, right? You took your athletic passion into your business.
49:35 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
49:35 Speaker 02 So my guess is that you have a couple, one, two, or three interrelated passions
49:41 Lewis Howes? Sure, sure.
49:41 Speaker 02 that become that one thing.
49:43 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
49:43 Speaker 02 And then you slice and dice it and you gotta do these other things.
49:46 Lewis Howes? Yeah, I also get bored once I kind of like taking something to a certain level. It's like, if I want to do this every day, no, how can I like, you know, have fun and be adventurous and try something new?
49:56 Speaker 02 Right.
49:57 Lewis Howes? I remember what I was gonna say. There's a lot of people in my space, kind of when I first started this podcast four and a half years ago. I remember thinking to myself, no one is doing podcasts yet, but I feel like that's where everyone's going to be.
50:11 Speaker 02 It's a great medium.
50:12 Lewis Howes? And I remember thinking like, gosh, I just feel like I can do this. Like if other people, my friends were doing it, they said they loved it. And I was like, I just feel like it's gonna take off. When smartphones get like smarter and they're in the cars, I was just like, I just feel like it's gonna take off. So I started doing the podcast, it took off. Everyone else started launching them within a few years afterwards. Serial came out and these other big shows and it kind of brought this attention to the podcast world. And I remember thinking like, how am I going to build a business around this free interview series?
50:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
50:41 Lewis Howes? And I was asking my other marketer friends. I used to create a lot of online courses before and I sold that business because I wasn't passionate about the topic anymore, but I love education and teaching and packaging content. And I was like, ah, I would just love to bring my community together and like do a big live event. I remember asking friends who had events in the past and they were like, I'll never do events anymore because it's so much work and time. You lose all this money and it's like you work all year for this thing. And I was like, yeah, but like, I feel like as everyone was saying they weren't doing it. I was like, I want to go lean into that then. And I want to do a big event and create an experience. Even if I lose money in the first year, like, I want to, I wonder why people aren't doing it. And maybe the driver at play. But I was just like, if they're
51:24 Lewis Howes? not doing it, or they tried it and it didn't work out, how can we make an experience that's unique upon the whole industry?
51:29 Speaker 02 That works.
51:30 Lewis Howes? That works. And the people are like, I have to buy a ticket for the next year, like right now.
51:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:35 Lewis Howes? And so we did that last year and we have another one coming up. It's called the Summit of Greatness. We've got the School of Greatness podcast, the book, Summit of Greatness, the School of Greatness Academy. So we continue to build that to verticals and different learning experiences.
51:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
51:49 Lewis Howes? From the audio to written to in-person, to workshops. It's all the same message. It's how you experience it and internalize it differently. And it's a platform where we bring the biggest speakers in the world who've been on the show to come speak in person and help promote their book and all that stuff. But I was just like, how can?
52:07 Speaker 02 Summit of Greatness. What a great brand name that is. I love that.
52:11 Lewis Howes? Clean, huh?
52:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:12 Lewis Howes? Uh, thanks. Yeah. So, you know, I'm always thinking of like, how can we be innovative in our approach as an entrepreneur? And maybe you guys can correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe I could have done the event and it would have been a big failure. You know, I don't know. But I was just like, there's something here to why people, if it's too hard for them to do, then like, and they're not willing to stick it out, then there's an opportunity, I felt like.
52:34 Speaker 02 Yeah. I wonder if you introduced that product form at just the right time.
52:40 Lewis Howes? Maybe.
52:41 Speaker 02 Because you'd built this franchise and they wanted to do something live with you.
52:45 Lewis Howes? Maybe. And also another example, again, not to try to like toot my own horn here or anything, or say I have the answers because I definitely don't. Everyone in my space was doing like just eBooks or they were self-publishing.
52:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:57 Lewis Howes? And I was like, you know what? Like, let's try to, let me try to stand out. Let me try to like, because writing an eBook or self-publishing, you're not going to get a chance in the New York Times Bestseller list.
53:05 Speaker 01 Right.
53:06 Lewis Howes? And I just knew that would help with credibility and everything with the brand if I hit that list.
53:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:10 Lewis Howes? I was like, it's going to take two years at least in like using a traditional publisher. You guys just went through this.
53:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:15 Lewis Howes? I'm assuming you.
53:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:16 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
53:16 Speaker 02 Harvard Business Press, yeah.
53:17 Lewis Howes? You know, you can't just release it whenever you want.
53:19 Speaker 01 Nope.
53:19 Lewis Howes? You've got to go through the process. It's like, I mean, just the, the butting of heads with the publisher and the ideas of everything, right? It's a lot of work and it's like, is this worth it? When the advance isn't that much and you're putting it all back into the marketing and at the end of the day, you're not making any money. But I was like, it'll be worth it because it'll give it a different level of credibility than what everyone else in the space.
53:39 Speaker 02 And it worked.
53:40 Lewis Howes? And it worked. It could have not worked.
53:41 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:42 Lewis Howes? But I was willing to at least risk.
53:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:44 Lewis Howes? To go for it than be like, man, when I came out with an eBook and.
53:47 Speaker 01 You've got a lot of people in your audience who are entrepreneurs or what we sometimes call wantrepreneurs, right? There are people on the sidelines saying, hey, is this for me?
53:54 Lewis Howes? Yes.
53:55 Speaker 01 What's it going to take? And I think one of the things that Chris and I have come away with in, in, in researching and writing this book is that to some extent, what separates an entrepreneur from the rest of us or the rest of those that haven't ever done it, because we both have done it, is being willing to take the next step to pursue an idea. And I mean it on that basic level. Take the next step.
54:15 Speaker 02 Hmm. Even when others suggest you should.
54:18 Speaker 01 Oh, absolutely.
54:18 Speaker 02 Like you just did twice over.
54:20 Speaker 01 Because, because too often people imagine the mountain ahead of them. And yes, there's a lot that nobody knows and yes, there's a lot of risk and yes, there's a lot of uncertainty. But the fundamental courage to take an idea to the next step, whatever it is. And then apropos of your summit of greatness, uh, I'll, I'll give you an idea that you might want to, might want to consider because you, you, you're looking for something that is not just a great event, but also can galvanize a community even more.
54:46 Lewis Howes? Absolutely. And give them some more investment in the brand.
54:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I, I, I attend a conference called TED, um, every year and, and I'm the guy that came up with the idea for something called TED U, which is the nickname for TED University.
54:58 Lewis Howes? Sure.
54:58 Speaker 01 The reason behind that idea was really simple. Ted attracts a lot of really interesting people, both on the stage and in the audience. And I suggested to the folks that own and run Ted that it might be great to not just offer the podium to the folks on stage, but give people in the audience an opportunity to share some of their stories in a perhaps more informal way, in a more kind of casual way, and it's become a very popular part of the Ted and Ted Global Conferences. You've got the same kind of opportunity here because the summit of greatness is going to attract a lot of people interested, it's going to attract a lot of great people, but not just the folks that are on the stage. So there may be an opportunity for you to figure out a way to, in effect, think of the audience more like popcorn of possibilities.
55:43 Lewis Howes? Teachers, micro-teachers.
55:44 Speaker 01 Exactly, exactly. And that takes an event in a different kind of direction because then I'm not just audience watching, being inspired, I'm actually co-creating part of the content and creating the spirit of community.
55:59 Lewis Howes? What would you recommend there?
56:00 Speaker 01 Find out more about who your audience is, find out what motivates and they're passionate about, and make it possible for them to maybe seek one another out in the course of the event itself or even beforehand. Because what I think you're likely to find is you're going to find these little networks that you'd never imagined that are out there, and the people who are coming to your event are going to be curious about finding other people with similar interests, or just frankly, learning about something else that they'd never thought about before. Because all of us know something that's of interest to somebody else, right?
56:32 Lewis Howes? Directly having like a studio set up where people can just go in.
56:35 Speaker 01 That'd be one way to do it. There are lots of ways depending on the technology that you've got available and how big the venue is.
56:43 Lewis Howes? That's cool. I like that. Hmm. What else should people know about this? I'm fascinated by this topic and I'm glad you guys are in here because this is fun for me to talk about. Whatever feedback would you guys give me? You guys are the seasoned pros who've built and sold multiple million dollar companies, teaching at the highest. Academic level, you've interviewed the top people in this space. What else should someone like me or my audience understand about the next steps for myself or them in their entrepreneurial journey?
57:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, maybe we could just review because we've covered a lot of territory. So, our first piece of advice is know thyself. Really discover what type of builder you are.
57:21 Lewis Howes? You can go to the website, builtforgrowth.com to take a 10-question test and understand.
57:26 Speaker 02 Takes less than two minutes to do. And then they're just a series, and we've talked a lot about them throughout this discussion, about core decisions that you make. We talked about co-founder. Do you need one? And if you choose one, how do you choose the best one?
57:41 Lewis Howes? And what should the structure be?
57:42 Speaker 02 Exactly. Your team, how do you recruit the right team members? Your customers, there's a great book that we reference quite a bit in our book called Crossing the Chasm by a guy named Jeffrey Moore. And there's a process by which you actually outgrow your customers. And so, how do you choose the right customers at the right time in building your business? How do you raise the right capital? And each one of these questions, there's a nexus of who you are and how you do each of those steps. John wrote another great book, actually before John and I got together, called The Other F-Word. And perhaps we could end on that point.
58:19 Speaker 01 Fun? No, failure. It's a book called The Other F-Word, How Smart Leaders, Teams, and Entrepreneurs Put Failure to Work. And the reason why that was so interesting to me was that if you're serious about innovation, if you're serious about entrepreneurship, you've got to be willing to dance with a partner. And the partner is failure. And most of us, not naturally speaking, of course, understand failure as this inevitably regrettable event. But what makes failure so unique is that when you look at it with a bit more humility and maybe even a sense of humor, what you recognize is that it has profound ability as a strategic resource, on a par with the people you hire, with the money you're spending, with the technology you're using.
59:02 Speaker 01 Because failure is basically nature's way of saying, you've been conducting an experiment all along and we know what you didn't know. So you've already paid the tuition, you might as well get the education that goes with it. And we're all expert at creating failure. So obviously, nobody wants failure for its own sake. But if you're committed to growth, if you're interested in building value, you've got to be willing to understand that you're in the process of experimentation and you need to learn from both sides. So the connection from my mind, the reason I was interested so much in doing this book with Chris, is that growth is what every organization needs, whether you're a brand-new startup, or a big company, or a nonprofit organization. Because growth is what fuels opportunity.
59:45 Speaker 01 Growth is what gives people the palette upon which they can make dreams possible. How do you grow? We've answered the question about who are the people that are connected to basically building growth. Four different types. Not the kind of, not only the folks that you see in the media, there are four completely different flavors of highly successful entrepreneurial builder types. The Failure Book is about, hey, we're all human, we're all fallible. So let's be honest about what's going to be involved in growing. Because to the extent we can get comfortable with the failure side of the equation, it's going to make our ability to grow and our odds of succeeding that much better.
1:00:23 Speaker 02 Wow. And this question of growth isn't just growing your business, it's growing yourself, right? A lot of what you talk about is how do you become a better person? Absolutely. And that's where we end our book. How do you become a stronger builder? And as we talked a bit at the beginning, stronger builder, you can either be an expert, or you can be a master builder. You can either basically leverage your strengths and buffer your weaknesses, or you can start to take on the strengths of others and become a master builder, or a master tennis player like Roger Federer. Sure. And so our dream for this book is that we actually help entrepreneurs across the range from People who start their own companies or work in large companies in an entrepreneurial
1:01:06 Speaker 02 role and they personally grow because they understand themselves better. They understand that the nexus of their personality, it's out there all the time. And by understanding how you play, you can actually play the game much better.
1:01:22 Speaker 01 And we've been gratified. You talked about the New York Times bestseller. We've now become a Wall Street Journal bestseller. So we haven't, not yet, not in New York Times, but the Wall Street Journal, which is really terrific because it's sparking a conversation with the audiences that we talk with, with the clients we have, with the students we get a chance to meet with. And it's part of enhancing the conversation that all of us have in common, which is, how can we do this better?
1:01:46 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
1:01:47 Speaker 01 How can we grow these businesses more strongly? How is it that we can learn from one another? How can we learn about ourselves so that we can leverage the time and talents that we have to do the things that we care the most about?
1:01:57 Lewis Howes? What was the biggest failure that, failure that both you had over the last, you know, your career? And what was the biggest lesson you learned from that?
1:02:03 Speaker 01 Um, I'll, I'll give you, I'll give you two. I worked for Bill Clinton in his first term as governor of Arkansas, which was a, a checkered experience, I would say. And I learned a couple of things about that. One is the importance of character and power together. That when you have political power, you have corporate power, it's a test of character. And, and, uh, character is, is ultimately, I think ultimately more important than the power you may have. So that was an opportunity to, to work closely with somebody of extraordinary talent.
1:02:47 Speaker 01 But somebody whose experience at that stage in his career, um, gave me a very powerful lesson because he ended up not being reelected in that first term. I was off in Washington doing some other things by the time that happened. But, and the second was one of my businesses bombed. Um, and it, I'd, I'd poured my heart and soul into this thing, uh, and had dozens and dozens of people working with us and it had its moment in the sun, but just didn't work out. So I had to confront this issue, you know, personally. And what I came away with after the depression and after the, what, what did we do wrong at all the postmortems? What I came away with is, I'd do it again.
1:03:27 Speaker 01 Because it brought out a level of passion and commitment and the things that ultimately proved to be its demise, to some extent, were beyond my control. To some extent, if I'd been smarter, I probably would have anticipated things. But it gave me, it gave me the scars of, of, of failure that in hand, in fact, have enhanced me ever since. So, those are two.
1:03:49 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:03:50 Speaker 02 Yeah. My two kind of run parallel. I, I started my career at Johnson and Johnson. I, in fact, I was the guy who brought decorations to Band-Aids. So I ran a Band-Aid brand.
1:03:59 Lewis Howes? Oh, really?
1:04:00 Speaker 02 Yep.
1:04:00 Lewis Howes? Too bad you didn't get a license for that.
1:04:02 Speaker 02 Yes, yes. As a matter of fact, Michael Jordan's agent wanted us to put Michael Jordan's face on a Band-Aid. That was cool.
1:04:08 Lewis Howes? Did you guys do it?
1:04:09 Speaker 02 The problem was that he wanted a hundred million dollars for that, which was more than all the revenue of all Band-Aids.
1:04:13 Lewis Howes? Oh, Band-Aids, hilarious.
1:04:15 Speaker 02 So they did a little bit of a miscalculation.
1:04:17 Lewis Howes? That's funny.
1:04:17 Speaker 02 But I, I'd had a, a successful, uh, start to my career at Johnson and Johnson, earned the right to run the largest business at Johnson and Johnson at the time, which was the Tylenol brand. And within two weeks of being the brand manager, the group brand manager of Tylenol, I realized I hated the job. So I'd worked nine years to get to this point where I really wanted this job. And the nature of the job just didn't fit what I thought was the most fun about marketing, which is to figure out what motivates people and actually change the product and the message and so on. So actually, at two weeks into this job I'd aspired to for a really long time, I really had to leave this company that I wanted to work for for the rest of my life. And that ultimately led to the, the path to starting Rosetta three years later. So it, it's very similar to John's lessons about
1:05:02 Speaker 02 failure. You know, if you, if inevitably, you're going to fail. If you let the lesson and the hurt and then the insight in, it can lead to some really great stuff.
1:05:14 Lewis Howes? Sure.
1:05:14 Speaker 02 The other, the other failure that I had actually was with Rosetta. We, as I mentioned, we sold the business for $575 million. We created 27 millionaires. Uh, and I had a lot of partners who were really angry with me because they felt that we should have built the business to a billion dollars and they should have gotten more money.
1:05:33 Lewis Howes? They were mad because they made millions.
1:05:35 Speaker 02 And that was my fault because I didn't manage their expectations correctly. I said, let's go create a billion dollar business.
1:05:43 Lewis Howes? And then you sold it for half that.
1:05:44 Speaker 02 They heard, we are going to create a billion dollar business and we're disappointed at the payday.
1:05:49 Lewis Howes? So are you upset with the expectation you built or with the, uh, not continuing to go to a billion?
1:05:56 Speaker 02 Well, it was the right time to sell the business.
1:05:58 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
1:05:58 Speaker 02 But it was incredibly valuable lesson in leadership, which is people always want more. And you have to very carefully manage expectations and that's on my shoulders. And I carry that scar with me because it was a great success. My chief talent officer said it was the most extraordinary day. We handed out whatever it was, forty-eight million dollars to people and they were pissed. I've never seen anything like that.
1:06:22 Lewis Howes? Investors or?
1:06:23 Speaker 02 These are employees. These are people I've run on.
1:06:26 Lewis Howes? Shut up. They were pissed.
1:06:27 Speaker 02 They were pissed because their expectation was far greater than that.
1:06:31 Lewis Howes? Wow.
1:06:31 Speaker 02 Really important lesson though, because I don't blame them. I know it sounds like a horrifying thing because they thought that we were going to a billion dollars and they thought they were going to add.
1:06:41 Lewis Howes? They had already spent the money in their heads, right? They'd already spent what they thought was coming.
1:06:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, and that's what the leader needs to do. And this is something that drivers do wrong, being a driver, I tell you.
1:06:50 Lewis Howes? Promoting, yes.
1:06:51 Speaker 02 Well, exactly, exactly. You can oversell something.
1:06:54 Lewis Howes? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:06:55 Speaker 02 In fact, I have once heard twice.
1:06:57 Speaker 01 It'd be the biggest business in the world. What I love, what I love about that story, I was just thinking Louis about your title, your brand here. You know, more is very seductive, but it ain't nearly as good as great.
1:07:10 Lewis Howes? Yes.
1:07:11 Speaker 01 I mean, if you, if your business was the school of more.
1:07:13 Lewis Howes? Yeah, you'd be screwed. You'd be screwed. Yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Wow. You wrote that many checks and people are upset. Um, I think it's a whole nother topic of when you should sell.
1:07:26 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:07:26 Lewis Howes? We can talk about it another time. When should you sell your business?
1:07:29 Speaker 02 That would be fun because there's a right answer to that.
1:07:30 Lewis Howes? There is.
1:07:31 Speaker 02 And a lot of wrong answers.
1:07:32 Lewis Howes? Is the bird in the hand better than two in the boot?
1:07:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, and where's the market going and is the?
1:07:37 Lewis Howes? Anticipating.
1:07:38 Speaker 02 Is the business flattening out or does it have another very important question?
1:07:41 Lewis Howes? Do you have a short answer for this or no?
1:07:42 Speaker 02 Not really.
1:07:43 Lewis Howes? No.
1:07:44 Speaker 02 But I appreciate the question.
1:07:45 Lewis Howes? We'll do another one, yes.
1:07:46 Speaker 02 Excellent. We'd love that. John and I would love that.
1:07:48 Lewis Howes? Let's finish with a couple of final questions. I do a question called the three truths, so I'll let you both answer. Um, before we get into that, I want to make sure they all know where to go. It's called Built for Growth: How Builder Personalities Shapes Your Business, Your Team, and Your Ability to Win by Chris and John. So you guys, make sure you guys go check this out. We'll have it linked up in the show notes. It's also built for growth.com and all the links are there to buy. And available at Amazon. Everywhere. Everywhere and bookstores around the country. Very cool. Make sure you guys get this. I highly recommend you take a look. It's kind of like the advanced version of Good to Great, it seems like. It's kind of like what that book should have been, right? Thank you for that.
1:08:33 Lewis Howes? It's a good little quote you can put on there. Thank you. No, but I think it's a powerful for you guys are, I'm going to acknowledge you both right now because I think any tools that that are out there to help people know themselves better and give them the resources and tools for breaking down what is a very complicated system, our inner world. Yeah. And understanding how we work, even though we may, this may be like a simplified version of how everyone's actually works, it's going to help people move forward in their business with less fear, with more certainty, with more ease in a, in a situation that is already very challenging for a lot of people. So I acknowledge you both for spending the time, decades of your time to probably fail over and over to figure this out in
1:09:18 Lewis Howes? the first place, to make it an easy way for us to understand and apply it for our lives. So I acknowledge you both for the effort, the energy and the results you create in the world. So we'll, we'll finish with the three truths and then one more question after that. If this was your last day for both of you many years from now, a final day on earth that you're aware of, and all your friends and family there, you've achieved everything you've ever want to achieve. All your dreams, you made the money, you'd made the mark, whatever, happened. But for whatever reason, everything had been erased that you were created. Your books, your businesses, information, videos, gone. No one had access
1:09:59 Lewis Howes? to anything except for a piece of paper and that you got to write down three things you know to be true about all of your experiences in life. Three life's truths or lessons. We'll let you start, John.
1:10:12 Speaker 01 Three truths. One, each of us has a limited amount of time and a developable, but ultimately limited amount of talent. The key question is, what are the issues, challenges, needs and problems that are worth your particular time and your particular talents?
1:10:38 Speaker 01 Number one. The second, however you answer that first question, make sure it doesn't start with me, that it starts with others. Because if you focus on the needs of others, you are likely to bring forth a much greater degree of surprising capability by yourself. And lastly, don't think too highly of yourself. I'm fine. There's a phrase, there's a phrase that Oscar Wilde quoted. He said, "Be yourself, everyone else is taken." And I think that's ultimately the case. So you are responsible for your own path.
1:11:22 Speaker 01 You're responsible for your own legacy. You decide.
1:11:26 Lewis Howes? Yeah.
1:11:27 Speaker 01 That's the responsibility that I think each of us has as human beings.
1:11:29 Lewis Howes? I like that. And what about you, Chris?
1:11:31 Speaker 02 Yes, so I'll start with three words and then describe each of them. So first curiosity, secondly, impact, and third, love. So in terms of curiosity, and I was fortunate enough to grow up in an academic family, and curiosity was up there above athletics, above godliness. If you were curious, you got dessert.
1:11:51 Lewis Howes? Really? That's cool.
1:11:53 Speaker 02 Very Pavlovian.
1:11:54 Lewis Howes? That's cool.
1:11:55 Speaker 02 But I try to inspire my own children, my students, my friends, to follow your curiosity. The amazing thing about being a person is that we have this ability to conceptualize, to think, to create. And curiosity, I think, is the engine for creativity. What are you curious about? It could be anything. And that provides the foundation for a fascinating life. Ideally, your curiosity then leads to some level of impact. And that impact could be to a small group, it could be a large group, it could be just to a single person. But if your curiosity can help you have an impact on others, life can be very, very satisfying. And then lastly, love, and it sounds a little bit corny, but I think particularly as I've
1:12:40 Speaker 02 gotten older, that human connection with others, you could call it love, you can call it appreciation, but the ability to connect with somebody else is a profound experience. And then in the best of all worlds, your curiosity, your impact, and your love, all are reinforcing.
1:12:57 Lewis Howes? Great answers. I love it. Well, the final question for both of you is what's your definition of greatness? I'll let you start first.
1:13:07 Speaker 02 You know, I think it actually relates to the last question. I think greatness is a question of impact, right? We're here for such a short period of time. We're all struggling through this thing called life. And if you can have an impact on something, right? You could be a great athlete, you could be a great musician. You could be an okay athlete. You could be a great coach to a little league team, right? But if you can have impact on others, that's how I define greatness.
1:13:33 Speaker 01 And for me, very similarly, greatness is about the ripple effects that your life has had in the pond of reality. That if you've had the good fortune and perhaps the courage to have an impact on others that's positive, that improves whatever the state of the status quo is in their lives. So that you've made it possible for other people to live fuller and richer lives, starting with the people that you love, that you're responsible for, that you care about. But actually extending to strangers, the people you'll never see, the people you'll never know, but who nonetheless can be affected by
1:14:16 Speaker 01 and can benefit from your particular connection, your particular impact.
1:14:21 Lewis Howes? I love it. Guys, this was awesome. Thank you so much for being here.
1:14:24 Speaker 01 Thanks for having us.
1:14:24 Lewis Howes? The book is Built for Growth. John, thank you so much. Appreciate it. Chris, you guys are amazing. We gotta connect more.
1:14:31 Speaker 02 Loved that.
1:14:31 Lewis Howes? I'm inspired by this and I hope you guys get the book. So thank you.
1:14:34 Speaker 02 Great. Thank you.
1:14:38 Lewis Howes? There you have it, guys. Did you figure out what your personality type is as an entrepreneur? If not, make sure to go to lewishouse.com/517, where we'll have all the show notes there, the link where you can learn about your personality type, where you can take the quiz, check out their book and really dive in because this is some fascinating stuff for me. Again, share this with your friends on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. Tag me at Lewis Howes and let me know what you thought of this episode specifically. And what did you learn about yourself? What do you need support with? All these different things, let me know again at Lewis Howes. Again, thank you guys for being a part of this. School of Greatness Journey. This was a powerful one.
1:15:19 Lewis Howes? And the next episode, we have another professor coming on to talk about money. A finance and economic professor over at Harvard, who's been teaching for 18 years and one of the top experts on this topic. So get ready on the next episode for another edition of Professor Week. And as always, you guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.
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