47 Life After Prison: Journey to Becoming the World's Best Jazz Violinist with Christian Howes

Back with part two, a continuation from last week's School of Greatness with Christian Howes. Last week was all about his experience with prison, how he got there, what he did while there and his trial and tribulations. This time around, we discuss the journey from the prison gates to the top of the Jazz world. Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 47, the part two with Christian Howes.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  Hey, hey, hey, greats. Thanks again for tuning back and hearing the second part of this interview with my brother, my hero and the legend, Christian Howes. You know, my brother is again such an amazing individual and what he's been able to create since coming out of prison. You know, I remember the moment he got out of prison and he called me and all my family was going to go pick him up. I had a basketball practice and he called me and I remember just being so, so much joy in my heart, hearing his voice when he was driving the car as a free man. And what that felt like for me as a 12-year-old, younger brother, to know that my brother was finally coming home

• 1:16Lewis Howes?

  to spend time with us. And again, one of the most memorable, joyful moments of my life to date, for sure, hands down, was knowing that I was going to get my big brother back. So this is all about the lessons that he learned from prison, what it was like getting out of prison and entering the world as a free man again, the challenges, the struggles, what he's faced since then. But most importantly, the amazing life that he's created for himself, his family. And yeah, it's just a powerful experience, what he's done. And I'm very excited to share part two with you right now. For that, guys, here we go with part two, Christian Howes.

• 2:07Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't wanna not be grateful for just having freedom. You know, like it's, you know, cause, cause life can be so bad. And even, even being in prison, like also I met guys that just, I can't even begin to fathom how hard their lives were. You know, and what kind of fucked up shit they went through. And I, I always tried to remember that. And that's another reason that I've never focused on, you know, how bad I, you know, it was for me to go to prison or whatever, cause all these cats in, in jail, you know, the majority of them had it far worse than I did their entire lives.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  And prison was just a revolving door for a lot of them. And they didn't have families like we have, and they didn't have opportunities like we have and resources like we have.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  So I try to always be cognizant and aware of that, that like, to be, to be grateful, you know, for what I have and, and to keep life in perspective in terms of what is really hard and, you know, how good, how good I have it. That was a big lesson. There's a lot of other lessons though, that I learned, I mean, about, you know, identity, about purpose, about manhood.

• 3:33Lewis Howes?

  What's the lesson about purpose?

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Education. I mean, in prison, I think, you know, a lot, like a lot of people, one of the cliche things, people always say like, oh, that's why you're so good at the violin, cause you were in prison for four years. You know, because they think, oh, cause if, cause if, you know, if you go to prison, you're just gonna practice all the time. I mean, obviously, I mean, if I was in prison, I would practice, I'd be just as good as you too. Like you'd be amazed at how many people like, yeah, like, like have said to be like that, like, oh, okay, well, that's why you're so good. Cause you're, well, sure, you know, it's unlike, you're thinking of myself, man, you, you just don't get it. But the thing that people don't realize is like, you could be on a desert island for 10 years and have a violin or a basketball, you know, or whatever it is.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  But that doesn't mean, just because you have that time on your hands, that does not mean that it's gonna be easy for you to get, to find the discipline to do it every day. Like even in prison, where I had a lot of time on my hands, it was a huge struggle every day to be motivated and driven to work out, to read books, to practice my violin, to learn music, to make the most of that time to better myself. And that was my challenge every day was like, I wanna better myself. I can't do it. I'm in prison. The only thing I can do is try to make the most of every day to better myself, to be a better human being. And the way I looked at it was like, I can do that through intellectually,

• 5:06Speaker 01

  through books, you know, I can do it artistically through my music. And, and a lot of times I didn't have an instrument, but I still would try to find a way. And, um, and physically through working out and even interpersonally through writing letters mostly through, and, and, and by trying to develop relationships with people in prison and learning from them, even though these were guys from a completely different walks of life. But I would learn from them. They were older guys. And so every day was a struggle. And I had to, you know, sort of fight to like, am I gonna make the most of this day?

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Or am I gonna let this situation beat me down? And succumb to the lowest common denominator, which is like play cards, watch TV, you know? Just numb out. Numb out, numb out, however that could be. Just pass the time and... Yeah, and there's ways that you can do that. And there's ways we can all do that with every day that we have now. You can watch your favorite sitcom. You can hang out with your girlfriend. Play video games or whatever. There's all kinds of ways, yeah, that we can, we can just like escape. And in prison, you have ways to do that too. Even if you're in solitary confinement. I mean, you could, if you're in solitary confinement, it is hard to do pushups.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  You know, and sit ups and calisthenics for an hour. You could sit there in solitary confinement all day and not do those pushups. Like a lot easier than you think. Like, I know you're sitting there thinking, like, most people, like, probably you too, are thinking, if I was all solitary confinement, I work out four hours a day. I probably, you know, Lewis Howes, I mean, world-class athlete. I know that you've got all kinds of routines that you you could come up with. But it's so powerful, like, the urge to just lay on that, like, great, all day long and not.

• 6:57Lewis Howes?

  Be depressed.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  And just be depressed. So every day, it's like a challenge to, uh, so purpose, you know, for me was about.

• 7:05Lewis Howes?

  You got out. Did you have this deeper sense of purpose?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, the whole time I was in there, I was developing a sense of purpose. You know, before I went, before I got locked up, I didn't have a sense of purpose. I had all these, you know, scholarships.

• 7:18Lewis Howes?

  You had all this talent that you didn't maximize.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  I wasn't, yeah, I wasn't motivated. I didn't have a, uh, I didn't have goals and I was just, you know, coasting. I mean, my only goals were like, you know, getting laid and getting high and trying to be cool or something, you know?

• 7:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  And, uh, it was jive, you know? And and then when I got in there, I was like, I I had a purpose. My purpose was, I want to be a better person. I want to be a man. I want to make my life have meaning. I want to do something meaningful with my life. And that became something every day that I was thinking about. And I was winding up like a spring. When I got out of prison, I came out ready to do some, like, I knew what I wanted to accomplish.

• 8:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  In no uncertain terms. And actually,

• 8:07Speaker 01

  because I had been at such a low point in prison, I think that it gave me an advantage when I got out in the sense that I was not afraid to promote myself. And we've talked about this before. I mean, you told me the story when you were, well, I can't remember if you were 18 or 19 or something. I remember you telling me that, that, uh, you know, you you were shy around girls and you were you were afraid to talk to girls. And you're like, so, so. You made a promise to yourself every day that you were going to talk to at least one or maybe it was three. Summer, yeah. You you were like, I'm going to talk to at least one or two or three, like, girls that I've never met before. Every day, I'm just going to force myself to go up and talk.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  You know, you you just like felt like you had nothing left to lose and you and you had this purpose and you were going to do it. But most people, they can't get over their their fear of that. You know, and and whether and I read a book called Call Reluctance, The Fear of Self Promotion. And it said, most people, and that was one of the first sales books, business books I read when I got out of prison. I love that book. Because what it said was that, and you know, you and I, you know, our dad was a life insurance salesman and he, you know, he influenced us huge. Yeah. His as a as a salesperson, you know, just just how you conceptualize what it is to sell. Most people think that selling is a shameful thing.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  They're ashamed to promote themselves because they think that they're over promoting themselves. Because we're raised to have good manners. We're raised not to be a stagehog. Pushy. Not to be pushy, not to be selfish. And this book made the point that in our own minds, we we overestimate or we we underestimate.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Well, we just have a, we just have a a messed up perspective of what it is to make the ask. Like you can make the ask without overly promoting yourself, right? If and I I talked about this with your friend Jonathan Fields, you know, this idea of if if you're if you're asking for the opportunity to serve people, that's not that's not being overly self promotional. But a lot of people I knew, when I first got out of prison, I was so driven and I knew what I wanted. And a lot of my friends, I think, were, they didn't know what to make of it. They felt like, man, you you're being too, you're too serious. You're being too business, like, just like, be cool, man. And especially in the artistic world, it's like,

• 10:41Speaker 01

  you know, artists, musicians, they think, man, just, you know, you should just do your music. And let it come to you or whatever. And it's going to come to you because you're going to be good or you're just going to be cool and it's just going to, you know, it's just going to happen. I was like, fuck that. Like I like, I wanna, you know, I know what I want to do. Like, I wanna, you know, I want to be a great jazz violinist and I want to, you know, be the best I can be and I want to go out, I want to play music on. Stages with great musicians and I'm gonna get paid for it. And that's what I want. And so I'm gonna ask for that opportunity every day and pursue it like zealously. So I didn't have the same. Like as they say in the penitentiary, or maybe they say it outside of the penitentiary. There was no shame in my game.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  You know, it's like I got out and I was like, man, I'd already been on the bottom. I couldn't be more.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  In a more shameful position than in the penitentiary. I'd let everybody down. You know, and so I was like, what do I have to lose? I mean, it's just, you know, and so I just like. It was like a spring when I got out, I knew exactly what I wanted. I've been thinking about it for four years. Every day, this is what I want. This is what I'm gonna do when I get out. This is my purpose. I've been, I've been honing it and refining it and thinking about what I wanted to do. And I think that was a big part of why I was able to. To shoot past various phases in my career. You know, because a lot of people, they get into one phase. Maybe it's a local. As a musician, like I started.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  I don't mean to say anything bad about being a local musician because I think local musicians can be very successful and very happy as well. You know, so that's a complete respect for that. You know, but I was in Columbus and I was doing the local thing. And then I was. I was like, I want to do something else. I want to go to New York. And then I was in New York and I was like, I want to do more and. I want to go to Europe. And then I was in Europe and then I, I want to, I want to get a gig at Berklee College of Music. And then I got that gig and then.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  I quit every gig I had. I, I was offered a full-time job with Columbus Symphony. I quit that job. I quit Berklee College of Music. I quit touring with major artists, you know, across Europe and. You know, some of the biggest names and I mean, a lot of these. Things that I, that I pushed to achieve. As soon as I got it, not as soon as I got it, but after I did it for a while, I thought I, there's still other things I want to do. And so I quit those things. And I think a lot of people. They feel like. They might have been like where I started when I had success in Columbus, just working around locally, playing in clubs, playing weddings. I could have just been like, oh, I'm cool with this, you know, I'm just keep doing this. But I kept having that drive like, I want to go farther. I want to do this or I want to do that.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  And because I was in prison and I had that perspective of, you know, of being in prison, of how low I could be in a lot of ways, that informed that that desire for me and that sense of purpose, clear sense of purpose. And got rid of like all the distractions and the self-talk of like, oh, don't be inappropriate or don't, you know.

• 13:52Lewis Howes?

  Don't offend people. Don't be pushy. Don't over promote yourself.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And and also there's this idea that we live by a script, you know, that we live by, that we see what's possible for ourselves within really specific confines and that we so unconsciously, you know, we live by that script, whether we are aware of it or not. I think going in prison, it completely flipped my script.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  I mean, because I was like, holy, this wasn't part of my script.

• 14:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Going to prison, you know, and then so it was kind of like, well, all bets are off. I can do anything. You know, my life can go anywhere and I'm gonna, I'm gonna go all out. So, so from a purpose standpoint, you know, that was huge. There was also the question of identity, you know, and um, you know, questioning my identity. I mean, who am I from a lot of standpoints of um, you know, obviously not just studying in college, you know, for all the years that I was in there, four years, you know, taking all these, as many humanities classes I could and examining, you know, identity from the standpoint of class, race, gender, sexuality.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  But also examining identity on the ground, literally in the prison yard every day. You know, in the real world of prison, you know, confronting.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Wow, who the fuck am I like in this context, you know, and seeing it that way and, you know, hanging out with these brothers, you know, like in the

• 15:33Speaker 01

  church services, playing gospel music or like in the R and B band. And it really made me do a double take and think like, who, who the fuck am I? And then like being a part of that scene or being a part of like the bluegrass band, band with like these old Appalachian white dudes at the second prison I was at, you know, and just coming into into such close proximity on a regular basis and being a part of that community with these people that were so different from me. And, you know, if we're in this world, I'm in the free world, you know, like, I mean, you live in LA and you go to New York a lot and, you know, I mean, sure, you can go down to Guatemala where you're building schools and you're, you know, and you can go down there for two weeks and you can see how they live and stuff.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  But for the majority of your life, you know, you're surrounded by other people that live, you know, are are a certain, in a certain class or have a certain education.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  But if you're in prison, you're, you're hanging out with these totally different people. And that made me just confront, well, who am I in a lot of ways? And I went through a journey with that and a parallel journey as a musician. Because I wanted, I was intrigued about the music, you know, I was intrigued about black music, African American music of all kinds, gospel music, R and B music, jazz, various eras of jazz music. And the culture and the music is so connected and learning from these guys, these older guys.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  It questioned, it made me question what I know about music and what I know about life and manhood and the world and myself. Because the way they conceptualized it was so different. And being educated through school.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Is different than, you know, living in the ghetto for four years. You get a different education there. You know, and it's a profound education. If you can open yourself to hear these stories from these men and get to know them and become brothers with them, like this, just that opens up is just so deep, you know, and, and like just this guy, you know, Eddie Hampton, who played the trumpet, taught himself to play the trumpet, you know, on the field gangs at five in the morning, you know, just taught himself to play the trumpet and he'd been locked up at the time when I knew him, he had already been locked up for 26 years.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  And I'm sure, I think he's still locked up. I, I got a letter from him a year ago. He's, he's still down, so it's been, man, 40 years he's been locked up now, but at the time, 26 years, and this was a big, strong dude who had been locked up for 26 years. And, and he really liked me. He, he, he just developed this, this thing with, you know, about me like, and it wasn't like a sexual predatory thing or anything like that. He just really liked me. He, he wanted to play music with me and, and so he had a trumpet and I played violin and, and then it just developed into this friendship and he would just talk to me sometimes and didn't all make sense what he was saying, you know, because he came from such a different

• 19:02Speaker 01

  world and his experience was so different and being locked up 26.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  And this guy who got locked up when he was 19 and was 45 at the time, part of him was 19 still and part of him was like 145, because that's kind of what happens when you go to the joint, like you, time stands still, like you, you don't age in one regard because you're missing all this that would happen to you on the outside, but you age profoundly at the same time in another way. It's very, it's a kind of a weird contradiction, but he's just one example. There are a lot of guys like that, that I developed really close relationships with and we would play music together, then we would talk and you know, just from playing music, maybe I was teaching them or maybe they were teaching me or maybe it was ambiguous, but we would just develop relationships.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  We'd walk on the yard, we'd talk, you know, and just.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  So the education, or wait, no, I'm talking about identity.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  You know, kind of questioning my identity through books in this liberal arts education, but paralleled with on the ground, you know, kind of questioning my identity. And as a musician and as a person, you know, questioning, you know, just everything about how I saw the world and who I was and stuff. And I went through kind of a journey with that. And even after I got out of prison, I have continued to go on that journey as a musician, as an artist and as a person. And it's changed, but it was really, to know thyself, you know, is pretty important. I think when I was in prison and even after I got out of prison, I still didn't know myself.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  But all those things I was exposed to, all these ideas, all these people, it really had me asking the right questions.

• 20:55Lewis Howes?

  I want to get into a life after prison and the business world in a second. But I just thought it'd be interesting. I want to actually have you get your violin out real quick.

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Oh, all right, right here.

• 21:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, this is the bow.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Oh, this isn't even tuned up, I think. I'm gonna play my daughter's violin, Cami, your niece's violin.

• 21:20Lewis Howes?

  So here's what I want you to do.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  You really put me on the spot here.

• 21:29Lewis Howes?

  I know, this came to me. So here's what I want you to do.

• 21:34Lewis Howes?

  When you're ready.

• 21:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 21:37Lewis Howes?

  Is it tuned up?

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's tuned.

• 21:40Lewis Howes?

  Okay, so I want you to

• 21:45Lewis Howes?

  imagine.

• 21:50Lewis Howes?

  The day you got out of prison.

• 21:53Lewis Howes?

  I want you to really breathe it in and imagine the moment you stepped off the prison grounds and you knew you were gonna be a free man. Four years of this journey. Of the most heavy, crazy experiences you've ever had. The lessons, the people you met, experiences you had.

• 22:16Lewis Howes?

  And I want you to play something from that feeling you had right after you stepped off. What your life was gonna be like afterwards.

• 22:28Lewis Howes?

  It could be a song you already know, a song you've played many times, could be what's coming up for you right now. Could be anything, but the feelings you had

• 22:39Lewis Howes?

  the day that you were free.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Well, I'll probably just do an improvisation, I guess.

• 22:48Lewis Howes?

  Whatever's coming up.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 23:35Lewis Howes?

  So what was the feeling then?

• 23:39Lewis Howes?

  What was it like when you got out?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  It was amazing. It was so amazing.

• 23:47Lewis Howes?

  You know, in my senior speech at school, I was like terrified to give this speech. I don't know if I ever told you this.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  I I remember about that you you did you you gave a speech.

• 23:58Lewis Howes?

  And I mentioned in the speech that that was the happiest day of my life was when you got out of prison. I remember like we had a big sign for you.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:07Lewis Howes?

  Said, welcome home. And you called me. I think it was from dad's car phone or something at the time. And you were out and I would I just got back from like basketball practice or something. I had practice. So I couldn't go pick you up with like Kat and Heidi. And I remember you were like, I'm coming home, order pizza. And I was just like so excited.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember that. It was amazing. Yeah, mom and dad came and got me at the county because because after, once they let me go, I had to go to half halfway house from the prison for like a week and then the county, which was ironic, because the county sucks. It's like the worst.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  But of course, I would knew I was leaving any day, so I didn't care. And I was in the county for five days or something like that. And then, then mom and dad came to get me and I stepped out of the county and just got in their car and just driving home and it was surreal. And then getting home and you and Heidi and Kat were all there and came in and we all hugged and I was everybody was crying. I was crying and we ate pizza. And awesome. And just that freedom. I mean, it's interesting that, you know, you asked me to to play something and to and to kind of remember that feeling and

• 25:28Speaker 01

  because, you know, part of what I do now, one of the things I'm really into, since, you know, my career has gone into so many different phases, as not just as a performer, but, you know, really, it I've become an educator.

• 25:45Lewis Howes?

  Producer.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  And a producer and then, you know, just constantly trying to find new modes of expression, vehicles of expression for my own creative growth, you know, and part of that is tied to business growth. But, you know, one of the things that I'm really passionate about is teaching musicians to be creative, you know, to to, you know.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  To um, to practice creativity.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  How do you, how does someone practice being creative?

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Creativity starts with

• 26:23Speaker 01

  infinite choice. When you start down, whether you're gonna write a, write a novel, or whether you're gonna improvise a piece like I just did, or whether you're going to um, you know, do a fancy move on the basketball court. Like, I mean, that's, it's choice. It's a series of choices. And you start off with, I mean, if you're a musician, you're sitting down to write something. Um, you start off with infinite choices.

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Infinite freedom. And one of the challenges with creating is that with infinite choice comes this ironic sense of paralysis.

• 27:07Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, too many choices.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  Too many choices and you don't know where to start. It's like writer's block. So like if I said, Louis, you know, make something up for me right now. Say something, you know, make up a speech, you know, that's five minutes long right now, that's, that you're just making up, that you haven't said before, you know, you would be like, what the, I don't know where to start. You know, you'd be stuck, like most people, I mean, most people would be stuck. And the same thing happens for musicians, especially like a lot of classically trained musicians. Now for, for people like that I met in prison who were self-taught, and you know, maybe it wouldn't be the same because it's a completely different, I like to say, culture of education. Um, but

• 27:51Speaker 01

  a lot of people that are trained in music, they don't know where to start. They're, they've got all this self-consciousness, or they're, they're self-conscious, I should say. Um, they're uncomfortable. They've got all this conditioning that's, that's at work. You know, this fear of this training that's made them afraid to, that somebody's not gonna like what they do, like the internalized teachers, internalized parents, this internalized audience. So essentially what I do is I say, well, let's, let's break down those infinite choices. And by the way, this isn't like a hugely original idea, I don't think. I think there's a lot of people out here that probably use some of these ideas. I, I've just put my own spin on it. But let's break down all those choices into narrower and narrower choices. And the narrower you make it, um,

• 28:36Speaker 01

  The more you can find people or restrict people to what choices they can make, the more creative they can be.

• 28:43Lewis Howes?

  They can actually be more creative.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Much more creative. Like if I said, Louis, you've got to dribble only with your left hand, you know, for this, and I want you to do a layup, you know, and it's gotta be some kind of spin involved in that layup. You'd be like, got it. And you do something to be really hip. You know what I mean? But if I was like, do like a cool move, you might sit there for like five minutes and like not know what to do.

• 29:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  You know, but the more rules I give you, you know, if I said, Louis, um, you know, start a business and you're like, I don't know what should I do? I said, no, I want you to start a business that's a local business that involves, you know, information, you know, training in the food market, you know, you know, the more restrictive, and I want you to only use Facebook. You know, the more restrict these choices, and you say this to me all the time as a business person, you see, don't get distracted by the shiny, what do you say?

• 29:40Lewis Howes?

  Shiny object or new thing or?

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 29:43Lewis Howes?

  Like all the opportunities coming your way.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because we get all these, you know, emails every day, like, check this out and use Facebook and you should this and use that. And it's like, I'll just use one thing and like do it really well and be creative with it and like go all the way with it. So, anyway, that's in a nutshell, like I talk about, okay, let's divide. So for a musician, like for me,

• 30:07Speaker 01

  if somebody says, okay, compose a piece or improvise a piece, which you just asked me to do. You asked me to improvise a piece. I say, well, I can start, I have all these options. So let me divide this infinite choice into smaller categories. So I start, so I have categories like emotions and techniques, like techniques on the violin and then like musical concepts and then within those I have, I narrow down even more. So, okay, a happy emotion or a pizzicato technique or a certain tempo. And the more I drill down, the more I can practice working within those confines.

• 30:44Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  And then once I work with these confines and lots of different configurations, then what actually it ends up doing is I get used to just being creative. So if you say,

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Just remember that feeling that you have when you got out of prison and just play something. To me, that's like, that's my shit. Like, that's that. Now, that's not to say that whatever I do that somebody else is gonna like.

• 31:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Like, maybe you were like, oh, that's not what I expected or whatever, you know, or maybe, you know, but it doesn't matter. It's because it's also about.

• 31:18Lewis Howes?

  Because they gave you the rules and you got to be creative how you wanted to be.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and and and I didn't necessarily even need a lot of rules. Like you just said, like tap into this feeling.

• 31:27Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  But for me, that's enough for me. But also a big part of it is, is that when you, when you practice being creative, you have to learn to trust yourself and you have to learn to do it for yourself. Like, I really get into this thing with musicians. Like, if you're self-conscious, if you're afraid to to write something, if you've got writer's block.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I see this with a lot of classically trained musicians that are like virtuosos, but I'm like here, um, you know, make something up for me. They're like, oh, I can't do it. And they giggle like, you know.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  What's at the heart of that? What's it? Why?

• 32:06Lewis Howes?

  Fear.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  It's fear. And and I would say even more.

• 32:09Lewis Howes?

  Insecurities or.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I would say even more specifically, why are you playing music then? If if you're afraid to make something up for me right now, then you, it follows that you're playing music to impress me or to impress somebody else in the room. You should be playing music for yourself, for your reasons. You should be doing a business for yourself, not because to impress dad or to impress some teacher that you went to school with or to impress some girl or whatever, you know what I mean? And I think if we can tap into like that, like I play music for myself, like in that moment, I really tried to, I really kind of remembered how I felt when I got out of prison.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  And I thought about for a second, oh, I could do this, or this would be cool, or or people would respond to this, or you probably want me actually to do this or do something slick that people are gonna be impressed. I was like, fuck that. I'm gonna play what I feel right now.

• 33:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  For me, I don't give a fuck who likes it. But then the thing is, somebody will respond to that. Somebody will connect to to that, you know, somebody connected with what I played.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  You know, maybe a lot of people didn't, but that's your asset.

• 33:28Lewis Howes?

  But if you're always playing to please every other person but yourself, you won't have an identity then. You know, like.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  It's impossible.

• 33:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  You can't please everybody and people disagree about what's good. I mean, you like techno. I can't stand it.

• 33:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  You know, I like, like really out, like modern jazz. You don't want to hear that.

• 33:48Lewis Howes?

  Unless you're playing it.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you know, but, but, but the point is, like, if you play for you. I, I think creativity is the ultimate equalizer. And what I mean by that is, I'll go back to the story I've told before, you know. I was the first violin player in the high school, you know, but we had this kid that was last year, second violin, Noah Phipps. And, uh, man, the kid could not play the violin to save his life. But he would come in with these four track tapes that he made of him playing drums and guitar and, and, um, and singing, and it was creative. It wasn't virtuosic, but it was creative. And all the girls wanted to talk to him because that was what was cool.

• 34:26Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  And it's like, if you think about whoever you like, the Beatles or, you know, Jimi Hendrix or Bella Bartok or whatever it is. The reason you're compelled by them is the distinctive originality of what they do. There's people that don't like it. Stravinsky, I mean, they threw fruit at Stravinsky when the Rightist String came out, you know? But he was a visionary. And I've wrestled with that a lot. You're always telling me I should do more YouTube covers and, you know, I have tried to do some. But I still have to do something that, that speaks to me and, and I know even if I don't get eighty two million views or whatever. You know, the people that it resonates for, I feel good about it. And I know that there are people that can hear one or two notes and they're like, that's Chris Howes.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  They recognize my sound because it's, it is my sound and it's come from doing.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Creative practice over and over and learning to be, you know, comfortable with that. And that's why we've talked about this before, but this idea of being the best, I used to want to be the best. And I don't want to be the best anymore. Because I think as an artist, I know I understand if you're, if you're playing a basketball game, you know, maybe somebody, even a basketball game, I think is, is harder to compare. Cause the guy that gets the most points isn't necessarily the best. I mean, he's got a guy that's blocking for him or stealing the ball and passing to him. But I mean, you know, Hussein, is it Bolt? What's, is it, what's? Usain Bolt? Yeah. What's his first name? Usain Bolt? Usain Bolt. I mean, he was the best runner on that day. It was measured. You know what I'm saying?

• 36:00Speaker 01

  But doesn't mean he's going to be five years from now. Cause you know, but in the arts, I don't know. You always want to measure the best because, you know, for every Aretha Franklin, there's a Joni Mitchell and why would you want to have? You'd want to, you need to have them both and, but also it was, it was a struggle for me to wrestle with trying to be the best. And, and I felt like it was, it was not a healthy thing for me to try to be the best. Cause there's always going to be somebody that can do something better than you. You can't be the best at everything. I mean, that's just a fact.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  And also I just felt like it in another way was just, it was creating, it was just an unhealthy place for me to go at it. So as an artist, my goal is to be, you know, honest, is to be creative, is to be, is to find my voice, you know, and to really be that. You know, obviously to try to get better, to try to improve my fundamentals as much as possible. But I think it takes courage and it continues to take courage for me every day. And I'm looking to find that courage to really create something that comes from me. And I think this is what, I think you can relate to this idea too, because you're.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  Inspiring people all the time, you're saying you'll implement, go into action, you know, follow your gut, follow your heart, do the thing you want to do. People are afraid to do it. I think we're talking about the same thing. It's not necessarily about being the best. It's about tapping into your your voice. You know, there's some people out there that are going to want to listen to Derek Halpern.

• 37:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  And they're going to be more compelled by him than they are by you. You don't want to be like Derek Halpern. You want to be Lewis Howes because the people that Lewis Howes resonates with, that's what it's about. They're not going to resonate with him in the way they resonate with you.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  It's it's different. It's not the best. It's it's being distinct. It's to having a different thing, like a very special thing that'll resonate with some people and then finding that audience and then and then writing that and and it creates a positive cycle of confidence and more people resonate with it and it gets more powerful. And that's what's happened with you. You know, and the more that I follow that, um, the more that I feel good about what I do and the more that other people resonate with it, too. So teaching creativity is has become a thing for me because it's also about me fostering, continuing to be creative in my own life.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Because we all want to, I just wrote this article, uh, this called Finding The Courage To Create. And it's at ChristianHouse.com. And, um, the whole idea is that the better we get, the more we have on the line. You know, the harder, sometimes the harder it is for us to keep taking chances. Because, you know, we're going to make a bigger flop or whatever. And it's up to us to keep taking those chances, to keep creating, like, creating is not rehashing the you've done before.

• 39:17Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  It's like doing something new every day, and that could be small. It could be a small thing. It could be like, I only played like 10 seconds. But those 10 seconds, like, I was creative in that moment.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 39:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  It's like, and I'm, I'm trying to encourage musicians, not on just an artistic level, but also on a personal and on a business level to be creative because I believe that business is a creative process too. I think a lot of artists think that their art is artistic and that business is this other necessary evil. And that if you're good as an artist, then the business will come. And I think the opposite is true. I think you have to look at business as an ex- an extension of your creativity. I think you have to do business and that your artistic creativity will follow from that. You have to go sell yourself and get a gig. And once you get that gig, then you've got to deliver on stage.

• 40:13Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  I mean, you weren't a speaker until you had speaking gigs. I mean, well, you did practice, you know, at Toastmasters, but you really came into your own once you, once you did it.

• 40:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, failed a bunch doing it.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you did, you, you know, you agreed to do a webinar, you sold a webinar, you didn't even have the product yet. Then you had to make that product.

• 40:34Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  That product has sold for you for the last 10 years, but it was only because, well, I'm sorry, five years.

• 40:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  But, uh, but that's because you took that creative leap.

• 40:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  You're like, I'm gonna go out on a limb and I'm gonna create this product.

• 40:47Lewis Howes?

  Right. So what, what did prison, what did hustle in prison teach you for the last 15 years since you've been out?

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I talked about how I developed a sense of purpose in prison and drive. And, and I think that was, that's what it was. Um, that was, that was really it. I just became really driven. I, I sense a purpose. There was a fear of becoming depressed. You know, in prison, there was once, at least once where I was severely depressed in prison. And, um,

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Every day, you know, I I sort of developed a fear of that kind of depression, you know, because I thought, man, this could really slide into a bad thing and I don't want to live my life like that. I don't want to go into this darkness, you know, so I'm going to fight every day to try to to make something positive, to make something good, you know, and um, and as I also mentioned to you, I always tried to keep in mind, you know, how bad things can be.

• 41:49Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  You know, and so all those things have contributed to my continuing to hustle um, from the moment I got out until and now and and you know, I monitor a lot of times the peaks and valleys and, you know, and am I afraid and what am I in a rut? What do I need to do? And, you know, you know, you've seen me quit gigs and and question, you know, when I when I got the gig at the Berklee College of Music, it was a huge, I mean, I became a associate professor at the Berklee College of Music and I was there for three years and that was really prestigious and fulfilling and rewarding on a lot of levels. And for a variety of reasons, you know, a lot of which had to do with family, but

• 42:32Speaker 01

  a lot of which had to do with my sort of determining my own destiny and and creating my own, you know, career as an entrepreneur, um, I decided to quit the job and I really wrestled with that decision. Um, so you've seen me go through a lot of those, you know, it's not like, it's not like we're just on a straight path up or a straight path down, you know, we go up and down every day. And I've gotten a lot of good motivation from you in the last few years as I've watched you pursue this incredible, you know, upward path. I mean, six years ago, you were sleeping in this house on my couch with no income and no money.

• 43:14Lewis Howes?

  Paying, I was paying you two fifty a month. That was my pay, but I started making a little bit of money doing these LinkedIn events. So I was making like, A thousand bucks a month, like maybe or every like couple of months or started to like kind of bring something in.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  But you used to, but six years ago.

• 43:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  You were sleeping on my couch and you had no income.

• 43:33Lewis Howes?

  Two thousand nine, yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Or I mean.

• 43:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  The year before you were at the music, music house, you had zero income.

• 43:39Lewis Howes?

  Zero, negative income.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Zero. But you were working with Chris Hawker, um, the inventor, um, you were as a unpaid apprentice, really.

• 43:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  For a while, for six months or something like.

• 43:53Lewis Howes?

  He started paying me a little bit, but yeah.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  But I mean, I don't very.

• 43:57Lewis Howes?

  Pay for food, yeah.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, for food. I mean, you, you took on an apprenticeship and you were just six years ago. And now you've, you know, sold over 10 million. I don't know, last year over, I don't know if I'm allowed to say how many millions of dollars you've, you've sold of, of business that you've done, like millions upon millions of dollars of business and so many projects. And you've had million, um, I think almost a million downloads on this podcast, which you've only been running for a year. And who knows how many other products and, you know, affiliations and, you know, I remember you reading, uh, you know, I gave you Tim Ferriss's book, the, uh, the four hour work week, five years ago, I think something like

• 44:38Speaker 01

  that, right? And, uh, and you were fascinated by it and we both were and motivated by it. We both were. And then you just went straight forward from there. I mean, you just. You, I mean, you made a believer out of me because I've, you know, I've watched you these, all these years and I, you know, I thought, oh, internet marketing, oh, lifestyle design. Oh, I don't know. That might be a big scam or whatever. You know, there'd be times when I doubted it, but then I'd see how much you were doing. And I was like, this is fucking real, man. My little brother's doing this stuff and he's like crushing. And, um, so, so, you know, you're, you're a huge inspiration in that way, but.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  I guess the point is that, you know, I don't want to make it seem like that every single day that I have that same um drive, but but I try to keep myself, pick myself back up and go for it. And I'm starting a new project, you know, where I'm uh gonna be uh teaching musicians to um to take their business in their own hands.

• 45:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What I want to ask you is, what are the one thing that you, maybe not one thing, but what's something you've learned over the years playing on stage in front of audiences? What's something you've learned about how to captivate audiences and keep people connected throughout the entire performance and really just connect with them? Because I know whenever we go to gigs, a lot of people come up to you afterwards and just tell you how much it means to them that you're playing, like how inspired they are. So what has you learned to do over the years to really, is there a techniques or is there a stories you tell or strategies or eye contact? And what's the things that you've learned to have this poise on stage

• 46:26Lewis Howes?

  that really connects people in this magnetic way to be inspired and moved by?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  That's interesting. You know, it's funny because uh a sort of a protege, I guess there's a protege or a student of mine, her name's a former student, sort of online student, Victoria Ye, Y E H, Victoria Ye. She's in Toronto. She's a really, really wonderful violinist, but she also does a lot of different things in her life. But she gave a a presentation at my annual Creative Strings Workshop, which is the one week uh summit for creative string players that I do every year in Columbus. We've done it for 12 years. She gave a seminar last year on uh stage presence. And I was kind of like, wow, what's stage presence? You know, but then she did it. And I was like, wow, there really are these great things that you can do. I was really floored because she did a great job showing these sort of like

• 47:18Speaker 01

  certain physical cues that you can give the audience, right? And almost like politicians, they know about, you know, certain things that they do. And you've learned in Toastmasters. Honestly, I haven't learned a lot of that stuff. Like, I mean, what I do as a player, I think is, I'm really just focused as a player. I mean, sure, I speak and I tell stories to people on stage and stuff, but um.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  What I what I have always focused on is just from a musical side. I mean, since I am an improviser, since I am a jazz musician or a creative musician, I focus on trying to find that creative path every night to do something a little bit different. And even if you're giving a presentation or when I'm teaching, you know, you find things that you do over and over again, but I'm always trying to do it a little different. I'm always trying to push myself to be on the edge. And that can be tiny chances. It can be small little changes that you make, but just constantly always thinking, let me just do it something, take those chances. Because I think when you take those chances,

• 48:29Speaker 01

  and that's part of being creative, you're you're taking those chances and live as an improviser, there's this freshness that comes and there's this transcendence that like you eventually you you you keep growing through that, like you're every day you're changing, you're transforming, and it's making it fresher and on the edge and people feel that. And there's this power that comes from, you know, being right on the edge. But I always I always, as a musician, even as a classical musician, I was always intensely focused in on how to make the music powerful, you know, how to not just how to play the notes, but but how to to make a phrase as powerful as you can make that phrase be.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  I haven't studied that as a speaker. And I think you have maybe in Toastmasters and stuff like that. I've just only a little bit, you know, but as a musician, I definitely think about like every time I'm on stage, like I definitely think like I'm gonna put I'm gonna leave it all on the stage like I'm gonna I'm gonna this is it for me being on stage playing my violin is like that is the sacred time for me like that is the sacred moment that is in a way it's like that's what I live for. I don't corrupt it, you know, I don't drink beforehand or smoke beforehand or anything like that, you know, it's like

• 49:55Speaker 01

  I'm in that space. That's everything I have. And that's everything that I've done up until that moment is for that moment.

• 50:02Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  And I mean, literally everything. And so I don't know that it's always graceful. I don't know that it always is scripting the audience in the ways that I could to maximize like whatever. But I think that from a musical standpoint, and people I think see that in the physicality of what I do or whatever. But I mean, they see that I'm intensely involved in it. I think people, you know, they get into that. But but it's really, if anything, it's that. It's just about giving everything I have in that moment.

• 50:34Lewis Howes?

  What's what's your definition of greatness?

• 50:40Speaker 01

  I like what Tim Ferriss said on your podcast. Was that episode number forty five School of Greatness, forty four?

• 50:47Lewis Howes?

  Forty four.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Trying to get better every day, you know, trying to manifest something that your former self would have thought impossible.

• 50:56Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  But sort of what I was talking about earlier with this idea of being creative.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  I think I think if we're

• 51:07Speaker 01

  we're really sort of living lives for ourself, like, you know, not for other people. And I don't mean that in a selfish way. I mean, if you're if you're doing things for your family, if you're doing things for, you know, for others, that can still come from you, you know, but you're not doing it because someone told you to do it, you know, you're really being authentic and finding your voice, your what makes you distinctive, you know, searching for that, searching to be authentically you. I think a lot of people are obsessed with being the best. And we've talked about this before, you know, the competitive spirit is

• 51:50Speaker 01

  great, you know, but but as an artist, for me, I've, if you want, I don't know if you want to say resigned myself to not pursue being the best. Of course, I want to be among the best. I want to be world class at what I do as an artist, but that comes from your limitations.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  As well as your strengths, especially as an artist. You know, Les Paul, with whom I played for, you know, ten years and who I was, you know, I considered a dear friend and mentor. He played with basically like two fingers and a thumb on his guitar until he was ninety-four.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I know that Les Paul knew that like he couldn't play as fast as a lot of other guitar players. But he was so Les Paul, like nobody else could sound like Les Paul. And he used everything that he had. And he worked within the limitation, profound limitations that he had. Joni Mitchell, she had, I think from what I've heard, her hands were mangled too. But because of the limitations of Joni's hands, she came up with these open string tunings on the guitar that nobody else had. You know? Miles Davis couldn't play, as far as I can tell, could not play as fast as Charlie Parker. And once he quit chasing Charlie Parker, and once he started to do the shit that only

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Miles could do, that was part of the revolution of cool jazz. It was about saying less and saying more with less. So you find all these great examples of artists who work with their limitations to do something that's profound, that's game changing. It's not because they're overcoming their limitations. Sometimes it's about accepting those limitations and saying, this is a part of who I am. Now, let's make it great. Let's, let, let me, let me accept it and do everything I can with it that's truly authentically me, because that combination is unique and nobody else has it.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  And if I can really buy into it all the way, invest in what I do and find out what that is, let it really evolve and manifest, that is gonna be great. People are gonna resonate with that in a profound way. Somebody, some thousand people, some ten thousand people, some five people are gonna resonate with it so profoundly. And as an artist, I feel like.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  Every person has the ability to do that, like every one of us has the ability to be immeasurably powerful. You know, because of our unique voice that we each have, our uni- the unique thing that combination that we each have. If we can follow it through and

• 54:54Speaker 01

  as artists, you know, and as people, it's easy. Not only just to recognize how immeasurably powerful we can be, but it's also easy to acknowledge how insignificant each of us can seem.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  This creates a contradiction, which can really stifle us. And what we have to do is we have to overcome that contradiction. We have to live within that contradiction, recognizing how fallible we are, how how limited we are, how insignificant we might be in the scope of things. But at the same time, how immeasurably powerful we can be. And if we can be okay with who we are, with our weaknesses and our strengths. Then I think, I think we can be great.

• 55:52Lewis Howes?

  So to finish it up. I want you to play one more song.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  That was a letdown, that last one for you, wasn't it?

• 56:02Lewis Howes?

  No, it wasn't. I want you to play a jazz song.

• 56:06Lewis Howes?

  That

• 56:08Lewis Howes?

  I want you to play your favorite jazz song. That

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Can we just put a tape on or something at the end of this interview?

• 56:17Lewis Howes?

  Your favorite jazz, I can be part of it, a minute or something. Favorite jazz tune, people can either know it or they not know it. It could be yours or someone else's. And I want you to play it with the vision you have from here on out.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  What do you mean the vision I have?

• 56:33Lewis Howes?

  Vision you have for yourself and the world. So I want you to play with that type of inspiration. It could be a, you know, a jazz song that you've either written or that people are know of and you play it with your vision of yourself and the world moving forward.

• 58:20Lewis Howes?

  There you have it. Where can we find you online?

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Christian Howes. Same spelling as you, H-O-W-E-S. ChristianHowes.com. Thanks, bro, for having me on this amazing school of greatness.

• 58:39Lewis Howes?

  Thanks for coming on.

• 58:47Lewis Howes?

  Man, what an experience, what a journey Chris has been through after going through prison and getting out of prison and everything he's created for his life ever since then. It's a, it's a pleasure again for me to have him come on and I appreciate all of you for staying engaged and staying tuned in for both episodes. Again, this unique interview was like a jazz piece for me, but it was a lot of fun and hopefully you guys got something out of it as I'm sure many of you did. Again, leave your comments over on LewisHowes.com or SchoolOfGreatness.com and go ahead and check out all the show notes over there. There's going to be some videos of Chris, some other links to his website, things like

• 59:32Lewis Howes?

  that. And I would love it if you shared this over on Facebook, on Twitter, on Google Plus, on LinkedIn, anywhere you want to share it online. Share this with your friends about this experience and what he's been able to create in his life and this inspiring message of his vision. Wow, I love the songs that he played and I just loved the entire experience. Again, thank you guys so much for tuning in. It means the world to me. I appreciate you all. I'm very excited for the guests that I have coming on in the near future. There's some big, big names coming on. I think you're going to love it, but make sure if you have not subscribed yet, go ahead and subscribe on iTunes, on Stitcher Radio and over on SoundCloud.

• 1:00:12Lewis Howes?

  I'm very excited for the future of the School of Greatness podcast and where it's going. Again, it was ranked, I think, top 39 overall podcasts on iTunes recently and with your help, we can get it up there in the top 10. So, thanks again for sharing. Thanks for listening. I appreciate you and make sure to go out there and do something great.