379 Master Negotiation in Business and Life with Former FBI Negotiator Chris Voss

“What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said.” - Chris Voss If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video, and more at http://lewishowes.com/379 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 379 with Chris Voss.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone to a special edition of the School of Greatness Podcast. Pump for our guest today. His name is Chris Voss, and he is the founder of the Black Swan Group. He uses his many years of experience in international crisis and high stakes negotiations to develop a unique program and team that applies these globally proven techniques to the business world. He was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI, as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council's hostage working group. He was also a member of the New York City Joint Terrorist Task Force

• 1:18Lewis Howes?

  for 14 years, and Chris currently teaches business negotiation in the MBA program at USC and Georgetown. This was fascinating for me. We did a mock high stakes negotiation, ransom, kidnapping, and Chris put me through it for a couple of minutes. You get to see how I show up in a negotiation in a high stakes moment. Then we walk through what I did well, what I didn't do so well, and how you can improve your negotiations in business, but also any area of your life. There are certain words and things to say at certain times, and there are certain things to leave out. Chris covers so much of this. We talk about why you don't have to be aggressive to win an argument. Also, the keys to any

• 2:01Lewis Howes?

  negotiation and being successful and getting what you want. How women learn negotiating differently from men. The difference Between empathy and sympathy in terms of negotiating and so much more. This applies to so many areas of our lives, guys. Chris has a new book out called Never Split the Difference, which is powerful and insightful, but he gives so much in this interview as well. Make sure to share this with your friends, lewishouse.com/379. Check out the full video interview over on YouTube, youtube/lewishouse. Subscribe over there. We're at over 76,000 subscribers. It's been blowing me away, the amount of traction that the YouTube videos are getting. So, share these with your friends. It's all about negotiating and getting what you want,

• 2:46Lewis Howes?

  but also making sure that the other person feels good about it as well. Without further ado, let me introduce to you the one, the only, Chris Voss.

• 2:58Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness Podcast. Very excited about our guest. His name is Chris Voss. Thanks for coming on, Chris.

• 3:04Chris Voss?

  My pleasure.

• 3:06Lewis Howes?

  You got a new book out that is called Never Split the Difference: Negotiating as If Your Life Depends on It. So make sure you guys check this book out. Really powerful. And Chris, you were the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI for how many years?

• 3:22Chris Voss?

  Officially the lead for four years, probably. In reality, about seven.

• 3:27Lewis Howes?

  Seven years, okay. And you worked on, I think I read, 150 kidnapping or high level negotiation cases.

• 3:33Chris Voss?

  Total cases across the board, yeah. About 150 ballpark.

• 3:37Lewis Howes?

  And these range from kidnappings or from bank robberies or from, what are all the range of?

• 3:41Chris Voss?

  Yeah, you know, mostly kidnappings. And one of the crazy things about the job was,

• 3:48Chris Voss?

  bank robbers are real rare. Bank robbers with hostages, all that happens in movies all the time. Happens in the United States and the whole country about once every 20 years.

• 3:56Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 3:57Chris Voss?

  And one of them is a bank robber with hostages. That's like the first story in the book. So it's rare to have gotten, you know, it sounds stupid to say I was lucky. Hey, I was lucky. I was in a bank robbery with hostages. How dumb is that?

• 4:11Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 4:11Chris Voss?

  But yeah, I caught one of those and... And it was great. So my, my experience is a little broader than most hostage negotiators.

• 4:20Lewis Howes?

  And you were a police officer in Kansas City before then, right?

• 4:23Chris Voss?

  K C M O P D.

• 4:25Lewis Howes?

  There you go.

• 4:26Chris Voss?

  Kansas City, Missouri Police Department.

• 4:26Lewis Howes?

  I lived in St. Louis, Missouri for seven years. So were you on the Kansas side of the?

• 4:31Chris Voss?

  K C M O.

• 4:33Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 4:33Chris Voss?

  Missouri.

• 4:33Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha. There you go. And, uh, and then after that you went right into the FBI or you were?

• 4:38Chris Voss?

  I did. No, uh, uh, went, went from the, uh, K C P D direct into the FBI. Actually, there was, there was like a 10 day period that I was not employed by either. And that was a weird period of time.

• 4:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 4:49Chris Voss?

  Ordinary civilian.

• 4:50Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Okay. And you were doing investigations while at, uh, Kansas City or were you doing?

• 4:57Chris Voss?

  Street cop, uniform, rode in a car, rode a uniform, beat cop in Kansas City.

• 5:03Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Okay.

• 5:04Chris Voss?

  It was good.

• 5:05Lewis Howes?

  What made you want to get into becoming a negotiator in the FBI? Why did you think this would be fun for me or something you wanted to do?

• 5:11Chris Voss?

  Well, I was originally a SWAT guy and, uh, you know, before I got into law enforcement, I figured to be a SWAT guy. Like I'm a medium sized guy.

• 5:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:20Chris Voss?

  So I figured, well, I gotta do martial arts. And so then in college, and then I, then I ripped my knee up really badly in, in college in martial arts. And that was what we ended up being the turning point negotiation because then I was on a SWAT team in, uh, with the FBI when I was in Pittsburgh. And was on a SWAT team there and then I tried out for the Bureau's version of the SEALs, which is the hostage rescue team. And when I tried out for the hostage rescue team, H R T, then I re-injured my knee again. And then I realized there's only so many times doctors can put it back together.

• 5:56Lewis Howes?

  It's tough.

• 5:57Chris Voss?

  Humpty Dumpty. How many times can the doctors put you back? So after they got the knee put back together a second time, I looked at hostage negotiation. I didn't know what negotiators did. You know, it sounded both cool and easy.

• 6:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 6:09Chris Voss?

  You know, and, and I thought, ah, I could talk to terrorists. I remember literally thinking, yeah, I talked to terrorists. I'd do that.

• 6:15Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 6:16Chris Voss?

  So then, but I, and then that, that actually was a big turning point, getting onto the team in the New York City office. Cause originally, the woman who ran the team just tried to shoot me away. Cause I had, I had no credentials. I just figured I could do it. I'm, I'm a, I'm from sort of a can do pitch in kind of world. I grew up in a small town in Iowa. And it's like, hey, figure it out, do it, get it done, move on to the next thing.

• 6:40Lewis Howes?

  Where in Iowa? Waverly?

• 6:41Chris Voss?

  Waverly.

• 6:42Lewis Howes?

  I've been to Waverly, so that's why.

• 6:44Chris Voss?

  Yeah, that's a mecca of Iowa culture, probably.

• 6:46Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 6:47Chris Voss?

  No, I was from Mount Pleasant, Iowa.

• 6:49Lewis Howes?

  Alright, yeah.

• 6:50Chris Voss?

  Southeast corner of the state. It is about thirty-five miles south of the future birthplace of James T. Kirk.

• 6:57Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 6:58Chris Voss?

  Just for all you Star Trek.

• 6:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, there you go. So what was the first negotiation process like for you at the FBI? What was it? How long have you been at the FBI for? And what was the outcome?

• 7:10Chris Voss?

  Yeah, the first real deal was a bank robbery with hostages in Brooklyn.

• 7:14Lewis Howes?

  Your first deal was a bank robbery?

• 7:16Chris Voss?

  My first FBI gig, if you will.

• 7:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And this happens once every two decades?

• 7:21Chris Voss?

  Uh, bank robberies with hostages are rare, rare events.

• 7:25Lewis Howes?

  Okay, where was the bank?

• 7:27Chris Voss?

  It was, it was in Brooklyn at Seventh and Carol. It was Chase Manhattan Bank.

• 7:30Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 7:31Chris Voss?

  And there we were, dun, dun, dun. No, but I was, uh, I was gonna, I was actually scheduled to do a terrorism related interview that morning. And I was, I was a, not quite a year out of negotiation training. And a partner of mine, Charlie Bodwin, came in and says, bank robbery with hostages in Brooklyn, let's go.

• 7:51Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And you were in Manhattan at this time?

• 7:52Chris Voss?

  Yeah, I was in Manhattan, yeah. So Charlie and I, and we were both nursing bad knees at the time. He actually had a bad left knee. I had a bad right knee.

• 8:01Lewis Howes?

  You got your wheelchair, your crutches?

• 8:03Chris Voss?

  Just about, yeah.

• 8:04Lewis Howes?

  Hobbling around?

• 8:05Chris Voss?

  Hobble around. And so we, we, we pull up to the, uh, bank robbery and we're too close to the crisis site. And we didn't realize, we're like right on top of where the bank is, where the bad guys were. So two, two, two guys with bad knees bail out of the car and low crawl basically through the inner perimeter to, to where the negotiation team was being set up and that was, that was my first gig.

• 8:29Lewis Howes?

  Okay. And now is the team in a van like it is in the movies where you're like have a van and you're got the

• 8:33Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 8:34Lewis Howes?

  radios and

• 8:35Chris Voss?

  If you can't set up someplace, then you get a van.

• 8:38Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 8:38Chris Voss?

  And NYPD had a van, but we didn't need it. We set up in a bank across the street, took over, it was chemical bank at the time. It just took over the bank and set up the negotiation room right across the street and started rock and roll. Took us two hours. From the moment the bank alone went out to the first contact was two hours.

• 8:57Lewis Howes?

  Two hours. Is that quick or is that?

• 8:59Chris Voss?

  You know, that's probably standard.

• 9:00Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 9:01Chris Voss?

  Cause it takes everybody a while to get there.

• 9:03Lewis Howes?

  Two hours. So they had to wait for two hours to, till they got any communication?

• 9:07Chris Voss?

  Well, that's what we thought. The bad guys inside were really tricky and they, and that was, that was one of the first things that I began to learn lessons about business negotiation. Cause the organizer inside was one shrewd guy. And it's a cliche in the business world that if you're sitting at the table with some guy who wants to make them seem powerless. That's an influential guy. A guy who always said, look, I don't have control of what's going on here. You know, I got a CEO. I got all these people. Anybody that points to negotiators away from the table, the harder they work to make you themselves seem powerless. The more influential they are. Cause they don't want you to corner them at the table.

• 9:48Lewis Howes?

  They don't have the decision. They can't make the decision.

• 9:50Chris Voss?

  Well, they can. They don't want you to know it.

• 9:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, right.

• 9:53Chris Voss?

  They're hiding that.

• 9:54Lewis Howes?

  They're acting like they can't make it.

• 9:55Chris Voss?

  Right, right, right. And this guy in that bank, he just kept saying, you know, these other guys that I'm here with, they're so dangerous. I don't know what they're gonna do. And he was extremely calm. And at first we just thought we were dealing with an inadequate personality. Somebody who just had no power. But we found out after the fact that he was one of the most controlling guys. The guys he took to that bank robbery, they didn't even know they were gonna rob the bank. They thought they were gonna burglarize a cash machine. He was, he was manipulating everybody. So my first solid dose with that, with somebody like that was like one of the best business lessons I ever learned.

• 10:32Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What happened? How long did the process go for?

• 10:34Chris Voss?

  Twelve hours, a little over twelve hours in total.

• 10:37Lewis Howes?

  How many hostages?

• 10:38Chris Voss?

  There were three hostages inside, two women and a man. They had, uh.

• 10:42Lewis Howes?

  They had guns, they had everything, I'm assuming.

• 10:44Chris Voss?

  Bad guys rolled in. This guy thought everything through in advance and he rolled in with a gun that looked like a three fifty seven was actually not because he wanted everybody to think he had a three fifty seven. So the first thing he does when he rolls in the bank is, uh, he takes a two female tellers hostage, he hits one of them in the head with the three fifty seven. He sticks the barrel in the other one's mouth and pulls the trigger.

• 11:08Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 11:09Chris Voss?

  And she thinks.

• 11:10Lewis Howes?

  Terrifying.

• 11:11Chris Voss?

  Yeah, she's frightened out of her mind. She thinks it's, you know, it was just, uh, an empty chamber, which is what he wanted her to think. And then, and when he, when he dropped the hammer on an empty chamber, he said, now open the vault and they wasted no time getting that vault open. But by then the police had shown up, we surrounded the bank and.

• 11:32Lewis Howes?

  So the vault was open, they got cash and bags or whatever.

• 11:35Chris Voss?

  They were getting ready to get out when we surrounded them.

• 11:37Lewis Howes?

  Surrounded them. So how did they get out?

• 11:39Chris Voss?

  Well, they, you know, we had them trapped inside. And so we, we went through a really long negotiation. I mean, this guy's thought everything through.

• 11:45Lewis Howes?

  So you're on the phone with him, you get ahold of him, he gets ahold of you. How's that work?

• 11:49Chris Voss?

  We, uh.

• 11:49Lewis Howes?

  Called the bank.

• 11:50Chris Voss?

  The first thing we do is we, we try to isolate the phone lines.

• 11:53Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 11:54Chris Voss?

  So, but, so we just got in on a, we connected our equipment to a phone and just called in on the bank phone. And this was, uh, and that ended up being the way we communicated the entire time.

• 12:04Lewis Howes?

  He picked it up the first time or?

• 12:06Chris Voss?

  Yeah, well, cause he's smart. He wants, he wants to figure, first of all, he wants to figure out what we're doing. He wants to get away and he, he also realizes that if he's talking to us, there's a pretty good chance we're not coming in. If he's talking to us and also if he realizes he's got to manage the, the risk a lot. You know, he's got to talk to us in really measured tones. And so he knows as long as he's talking to us and sounding reasonable, we're probably not going to break down the doors.

• 12:34Lewis Howes?

  But if they're sounding crazy, then you're going to come in.

• 12:36Chris Voss?

  Then we're going to come in.

• 12:37Lewis Howes?

  Huh. So he sounded reasonable. He was.

• 12:40Chris Voss?

  Right, right.

• 12:40Lewis Howes?

  Like, what was the conversation like?

• 12:42Chris Voss?

  Well, he started off right off the bat by telling, I was the second negotiator. The first thing he'd done was he had already actually, we didn't know, he called the precinct before we got there. He called the precinct and said they wanted to surrender. Which also then that that's for on his perspective, he thinks that that means we're going to drop our guard. And it's very much like a really shrewd negotiator says, look, I want to make a deal. You know, and if you get a negotiator says, you know, let's do a win-win deal.

• 13:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:11Chris Voss?

  I mean, the sooner win-win comes out of somebody's mouth across the table.

• 13:14Lewis Howes?

  More relaxed.

• 13:15Chris Voss?

  That well, that's an automatic mark of somebody's trying to to.

• 13:19Lewis Howes?

  Oh, really?

• 13:20Chris Voss?

  To rip me off.

• 13:20Lewis Howes?

  Oh, interesting.

• 13:22Chris Voss?

  Cause he's trying to get me to relax, he or she.

• 13:24Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 13:25Chris Voss?

  You know, if I look at you and say, hey, man, you know, let's do a win-win deal here. You need to be putting your hands over your wallet.

• 13:31Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:31Chris Voss?

  Cause I'm going after it.

• 13:32Lewis Howes?

  That's funny, cause I'm always thinking about, you know, I'm trying to come from a place of win-win in all my relationships and business deals right now in my life.

• 13:40Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 13:41Lewis Howes?

  But I'm honestly not trying to like screw someone out of a, you know, by saying that I'm really like, let's make sure that you win. I win this business deal or, you know, whatever's happening. But it's different maybe when there's someone who's stealing something.

• 13:52Chris Voss?

  And well, it's it's context too, but and then if it's the first thing that you say is like, if you say to me, look, I want to make sure that this is good for you. And I and I don't want it to be good for me at the same time.

• 14:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 14:04Chris Voss?

  You know, you're you're expressing a win-win, but if I sit down and I was I was saying like, look, Louis, you know, I need that. Let's do a win-win here. I'm telling you, I don't want to pay you anything.

• 14:14Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 14:15Chris Voss?

  The sooner that comes out of my mouth.

• 14:16Lewis Howes?

  Oh, interesting. So you should negotiate first before saying that, is what you're saying.

• 14:21Chris Voss?

  Well, you you start thinking about stuff other than money. Well, you know, what I'm really telling you is I don't want to give you any money.

• 14:27Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha. In that context.

• 14:29Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 14:29Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 14:30Chris Voss?

  Right. But the sooner somebody starts trying to give you a deal. It's a great move to get the other side to relax.

• 14:37Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right. Okay. So what happened next?

• 14:40Chris Voss?

  Well, um, he called the precinct and said they wanted to surrender. So what he, the deal he wanted to do was, he said, put a van out front. We'll all get in the van and we'll drive to the precinct.

• 14:55Chris Voss?

  Right, that's absurd.

• 14:56Lewis Howes?

  Like you'll drive the priest, okay.

• 14:58Chris Voss?

  Right, like, but that's an escape plane.

• 15:00Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:01Chris Voss?

  So, but because it came out, half that information came out, when we actually got to the bank at the beginning, all the top brass had showed up, they figured, you know, they're half paying attention, they figured they, it should be 20 minutes and it's over, because that was the information when we first got that, that wanted to surrender. And as stupid as that sounds, a year earlier, a hijacked plane had come into JFK. And in that hijacking, the hijacker said he wanted to surrender as soon as the plane touched down. And that was in fact what happened. So there was some precedent in New York for somebody wanting to surrender right away. So if you're half paying attention, you're thinking, oh, this is the same as this stupid hijacker a year ago.

• 15:40Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:41Chris Voss?

  Well, it wasn't. The hijacker that came in a year earlier, he wanted, he wanted to get into the US to get out of his country. And he figured jail in the US was better than life in his country. And he, he just needed a free ride to the US.

• 15:54Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:56Chris Voss?

  He hijacked a plane.

• 15:57Lewis Howes?

  That's funny.

• 15:57Chris Voss?

  He didn't know he was gonna spend life in jail.

• 15:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 16:00Chris Voss?

  But that he, and so there was some precedent for it. So the bosses show up, and they're just hanging out outside, shaking hands, they're not paying attention to what's going on. You know, pretty soon they wonder what's taking negotiators so long, they're looking at their watches, they're like, we've been here an hour. You know, these guys said they want to surrender an hour ago, why is it yet? Well, they were stalling and they were trying to escape. And, and we also found out the guy on the inside was, um, he was burning money in the basement. The bank was under construction.

• 16:30Lewis Howes?

  At the bank, wow.

• 16:31Chris Voss?

  And what he was doing was he stashed a couple hundred thousand dollars inside the construction. And then he burned a pile of money in the bank and he want, and so he figured, I don't have to get away with the money, I just gotta get away. If I had enough of the money in the walls, I'll come back and get it later.

• 16:49Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 16:49Chris Voss?

  So he was a cagey guy. He was a really cagey guy.

• 16:52Lewis Howes?

  Smart.

• 16:53Chris Voss?

  And at, at eight thirty that night, right at 12 hours later, he walked out of the front of the bank and we put those golden handcuffs on.

• 17:03Lewis Howes?

  He couldn't get out, huh?

• 17:04Chris Voss?

  No, we hadn't, we hadn't. But even, even up to the last minute, I saw, because I was inside, I saw the video, he's looking around. He came out real slow.

• 17:15Chris Voss?

  And he was looking left and right the whole time. I mean, right up to the moment that our SWAT guys actually put their hands on him. He was looking for any opportunity.

• 17:23Lewis Howes?

  Way to escape.

• 17:23Chris Voss?

  Yeah, he never lost his voice the whole time.

• 17:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow, interesting. So how did you guys finally get him to surrender or to?

• 17:31Chris Voss?

  Well, he got, when, when I got on the phone with him, I was part of a change of strategy. And I was gonna be.

• 17:38Lewis Howes?

  Something wasn't working for a while.

• 17:39Chris Voss?

  Right, well, we'd slowed it down and I was gonna be the really tough, nice guy. Like I'm gonna, my job to get on the phone was to be the immovable, nice guy. And the nicer you are, the more movable you could be. You know, you, you, and, uh, forgive me for picking on Mr. Donald Trump right now. But, you know, eh, the style of being, you could be very aggressive without, or very assertive without being aggressive. And his style is, he wants to yell at people, you know, he wants to intimidate his way in. You don't have to give up that much assertion. You just, you don't want to be that mean. You don't want to be that hard on people.

• 18:16Lewis Howes?

  For example, what do you mean? Like how?

• 18:18Chris Voss?

  Well, you know, there's, there's a, eh, we're, we're in LA. Um, there's a great guy here in town. His name is Tom Girardi. Voted top trial attorney in California several years in a row by the bar association. He gets a voted top trial attorney so many times that when they put it on the front page, they say again. So he comes in and he's a guest of my class at USC. And he stepped in, I know he's a top trial attorney, but I don't know his style. I figure he's gonna be an attack dog. Cause I spent so much time in New York, you know, I'm used to attack dog attorneys. And Tom walks into the class and he says, you know, the key to negotiations is being nice and gentle.

• 18:56Chris Voss?

  Now, what Tom does by being nice is get you to drop your guard. And Tom is an immovable, unrelenting opponent.

• 19:07Chris Voss?

  And that's why he's so successful and he's ridiculously nice about it. Like he smiles and he chats with people. And he always talks about how we'll collaborate with each other in the future. He's you, you get into an argument with him and immediately he'll bend it. Where he's talking with you about how you and I are going to be successful together 10 years from now. Or in the future, which is the same thing a hostage negotiator does, like if you're barricading a bank, I'm going to say, my first goal is to get you out of there alive. Well, I picked a point in the future that we could collaborate on. Tom Girardi does this instinctively. And he's just super nice about it. I mean, like you, either you're going to cooperate with him because you like him so much.

• 19:51Chris Voss?

  He's never going to let up on you. Or more than likely, you're going to say something accidentally. And, and he gets people saying stuff accidentally and he, and then he could, and then he doesn't jump on you if you say something accidentally. He lets you say so many things accidentally.

• 20:07Lewis Howes?

  What do you mean accidentally?

• 20:09Chris Voss?

  Well, like, you know, he loves to get people on, on uncovered emails that they never should have written. Like if you, if you send Tom an email saying, Tom, let's go have lunch together. He will not email you back saying, okay. Cause he doesn't put anything in emails because that's a downfall of almost every single lawsuit. Somebody who's done something wrong is going to put it in an email. And Tom knows if he's nice to the other side, long enough, he's going to figure out where those emails are. So, and that's what people do all the time, you know, lawsuits are uncovered. People get into trouble with what they put in emails when.

• 20:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 20:44Chris Voss?

  When they, when they say, hey, they send an email to somebody else, they say, hey, you know, we, you know, we shouldn't be doing this. And a person sends an email back saying like, yeah, it's okay. We're still going to find out.

• 20:54Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 20:56Chris Voss?

  In today's day and age, people put stuff in emails. And so Tom knows he's just relentlessly nice, relentless. And the most charming guy you ever met in your life.

• 21:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:06Chris Voss?

  So you don't have to be aggressive.

• 21:08Lewis Howes?

  To get what you want.

• 21:09Chris Voss?

  To get what you want.

• 21:10Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. Okay. I've got a bunch of questions for you that I want to ask about this, but I want to do a role play first, if you're cool with it.

• 21:16Chris Voss?

  I'd love to do.

• 21:17Lewis Howes?

  You say you do this in your class.

• 21:18Chris Voss?

  Do I have to wear a special outfit?

• 21:20Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 21:21Chris Voss?

  We're gonna wear, we're gonna wear uniforms, we're gonna wear football uniforms. I'll be a referee.

• 21:25Lewis Howes?

  Okay, perfect.

• 21:26Chris Voss?

  And you'll be a wide receiver.

• 21:27Lewis Howes?

  We can do that.

• 21:28Chris Voss?

  I'll call you for illegal procedure. Offside.

• 21:30Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Uh, but you do this in your class, right? Cause you teach a C. Business school. And what do the role play usually consist of?

• 21:39Chris Voss?

  Alright, so I, I say, I say, alright, I'm gonna ask you to volunteer to role play with me in front of the class.

• 21:44Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 21:45Chris Voss?

  And I want you to know, just in case you're worried about role playing with a hostage negotiator in front of everybody. Just ease your mind.

• 21:54Chris Voss?

  Just so you won't worry. I promise you, the experience is gonna be horrible.

• 22:00Lewis Howes?

  Perfect.

• 22:01Chris Voss?

  And you probably get more out of it than anybody else in the classroom.

• 22:05Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, okay.

• 22:07Chris Voss?

  Alright, so here's a role play. You volunteer, you, you agree.

• 22:11Chris Voss?

  I'm a bank robber. You're a hostage negotiator. I'm trapped at a bank.

• 22:15Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 22:17Chris Voss?

  You and your colleagues have got me surrounded. You have a job to talk me out.

• 22:20Lewis Howes?

  Just like your first case.

• 22:21Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 22:22Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 22:22Chris Voss?

  Yeah, there's only four restrictions. You can't give me transportation. You can't give me weapons. You can't give me drugs or alcohol. And there's no exchange of hostages. You can't offer to come in. If I offer to let everybody go. You can't offer to send my mom in if I let everybody go. Nobody comes in.

• 22:40Lewis Howes?

  I can't get anyone to come out.

• 22:42Chris Voss?

  People, people only come out, nobody comes in.

• 22:44Lewis Howes?

  No exchange for?

• 22:45Chris Voss?

  No, you know, like Eddie Murphy did a movie where he walked into the bank. Let me talk to you. You can't do that. You can't walk into a bank.

• 22:52Lewis Howes?

  No one can come in.

• 22:53Chris Voss?

  No one comes in.

• 22:53Lewis Howes?

  Only people can come out.

• 22:54Chris Voss?

  Only people come out. So those, those are your only four restrictions.

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  Can something else come in?

• 22:59Chris Voss?

  Sure, if you, if you don't break any of those other restrictions.

• 23:02Lewis Howes?

  No alcohol, drugs?

• 23:03Chris Voss?

  No alcohol, no weapons, no drugs, no transportation, no hostage exchange. We'll do, we'll do the negotiation over the phone.

• 23:10Lewis Howes?

  Alright.

• 23:10Chris Voss?

  When you're, when you're ready, say ring, ring, I'll pick up.

• 23:14Lewis Howes?

  Ring, ring.

• 23:15Chris Voss?

  I need a car in 60 seconds or she dies.

• 23:18Lewis Howes?

  Let me see what I can do on that.

• 23:20Chris Voss?

  Okay, uh, you got 57 seconds to do something.

• 23:24Lewis Howes?

  Well, Chris, we don't have cars that quickly.

• 23:27Chris Voss?

  Tell me you're killing right now. You've got fifty-five seconds, as a matter of fact. Or you're telling me you're gonna give me a car.

• 23:33Lewis Howes?

  Let me see what I can do on that and get back.

• 23:35Chris Voss?

  I heard you say that before. You've got fifty, you've got forty-five seconds. Car, yes or no?

• 23:40Lewis Howes?

  I need to make sure she's still alive before I can get you a car.

• 23:43Chris Voss?

  She's alive.

• 23:44Lewis Howes?

  I need proof.

• 23:45Chris Voss?

  Forty-three seconds.

• 23:46Lewis Howes?

  I need to hear her on the phone.

• 23:47Chris Voss?

  Nope. No, absolutely not. Forty seconds.

• 23:50Lewis Howes?

  I wanna help you get exactly what you need.

• 23:53Chris Voss?

  Give me the car, then, fine. You're telling me you're gonna give me a car?

• 23:55Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna do my best to get it for you as quickly as I can.

• 23:57Chris Voss?

  I've heard that before. I heard, "Do my best." Are you telling me, is that a yes to a car? Thirty-five seconds.

• 24:01Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna do my best to get you a car.

• 24:03Chris Voss?

  That sounds like a no. You got thirty seconds.

• 24:05Lewis Howes?

  I need a little more time than thirty seconds, because we can't get the car that quickly.

• 24:07Chris Voss?

  You're telling me you can give me a car, then. You have just said you are going to give me a car.

• 24:10Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna get you a car. Just give me a little bit more time.

• 24:11Chris Voss?

  Yes on the car.

• 24:12Lewis Howes?

  I'll get you a car.

• 24:13Chris Voss?

  Yes on the car, okay. You got twenty-five seconds, because there are cars everywhere. If you can give me one, you give me one as right up front right now.

• 24:20Lewis Howes?

  Give us a few more minutes and we'll get you a car as quickly as we can.

• 24:23Chris Voss?

  No, you got twenty-five seconds.

• 24:27Lewis Howes?

  You're gonna have to give me a little bit of help here.

• 24:28Chris Voss?

  I don't have to give you anything. You got twenty seconds.

• 24:30Lewis Howes?

  We're gonna do our best to get you a car.

• 24:32Chris Voss?

  Yeah, you just said you were gonna give me a car. Now you're back.

• 24:34Lewis Howes?

  As quickly as we can.

• 24:35Chris Voss?

  You're saying yes on the car.

• 24:37Lewis Howes?

  Yes on the car.

• 24:38Chris Voss?

  For fifteen seconds, that killer.

• 24:39Lewis Howes?

  Okay, well, we just need to make sure we have a few more minutes to get the car for you. Yes.

• 24:44Chris Voss?

  Okay, ten seconds.

• 24:46Lewis Howes?

  Okay, our men are on it right now.

• 24:48Chris Voss?

  Okay, we'll stop there.

• 24:51Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 24:51Chris Voss?

  All right, so. Literally.

• 24:54Lewis Howes?

  The tense.

• 24:55Chris Voss?

  Everything that you did.

• 24:56Lewis Howes?

  Was wrong.

• 24:57Chris Voss?

  No, no, your strategy is on the money.

• 24:59Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 25:00Chris Voss?

  See, and I would only change how you tried to implement the strategy.

• 25:04Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 25:05Chris Voss?

  But you, um, you're trying to feel me out a little bit.

• 25:09Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh.

• 25:10Chris Voss?

  You got a great tone of voice.

• 25:11Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh.

• 25:12Chris Voss?

  Like I was attacking you like crazy.

• 25:14Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 25:15Chris Voss?

  I'm, I'm, I'm hitting you hard.

• 25:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:17Chris Voss?

  And I actually used one, I used the Donald Trump voice, basically.

• 25:20Lewis Howes?

  Uh-huh.

• 25:21Chris Voss?

  Now, you didn't respond. You didn't, you didn't lose your stuff at all.

• 25:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:26Chris Voss?

  You stayed very calm the whole time.

• 25:27Lewis Howes?

  Okay, that's the key.

• 25:28Chris Voss?

  That's not easy to do.

• 25:30Lewis Howes?

  No, because I was feeling it inside. I was like, oh, man.

• 25:32Chris Voss?

  That's very impressive, that your voice didn't come up one iota in that negotiation. And with that particular voice as a counterpart, it's not at least a bit unusual where we start talking over each other.

• 25:42Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:43Chris Voss?

  You didn't talk over me once.

• 25:44Lewis Howes?

  Right. Is that a key?

• 25:46Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 25:46Lewis Howes?

  Not talk over, not try to interrupt or?

• 25:48Chris Voss?

  Secret to gaining the upper hand in a negotiation is giving the other side the illusion of control. Now I'm coming at you as a very control oriented negotiator.

• 25:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:57Chris Voss?

  As soon as you don't struggle with me over control, you actually begin to gain an advantage.

• 26:02Lewis Howes?

  Cause then you feel like you're in control.

• 26:04Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 26:04Lewis Howes?

  And you don't have to try to gain it anymore.

• 26:06Chris Voss?

  Right, right. I'm more than likely gonna start dropping my, if I'm a control freak guy, if I wanna talk all the time, I'm a control freak guy. Control freak, uh, negotiators who wanna talk all the time, they feel out of control when they're not talking. So you wanna get them to the point where they don't talk, but they don't talk because they're relaxed, not because they're trying to seize control.

• 26:26Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:27Chris Voss?

  So you did, you, you did a real nice job with that. Now the, the only thing, one, another thing that we teach is, see, you're not gonna give me a car.

• 26:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 26:37Chris Voss?

  And you're trying to make it sound like you were going to.

• 26:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:41Chris Voss?

  Now, I teach how to say no.

• 26:45Chris Voss?

  And, and then you wanna feel other ways of saying, cause the real answer to that, just like at the very beginning of my book, you're supposed to look, look at me and say, how am I supposed to do that?

• 26:54Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, so, points it back to a question.

• 26:57Chris Voss?

  Right. A, a how question.

• 26:59Lewis Howes?

  An open ended question.

• 27:00Chris Voss?

  Well, not just open it in how.

• 27:02Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 27:02Chris Voss?

  How is the key to life? Yes is nothing without how. So you know, if I, and, and you could also started talking about how without talking about yes.

• 27:12Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, so just say, what I even say.

• 27:15Chris Voss?

  You could say, how would I do that?

• 27:16Lewis Howes?

  Would I say, I'd love to get you what you need, how would I do that?

• 27:19Chris Voss?

  Just how would I do that?

• 27:20Lewis Howes?

  How would I do that? So give them the control to figure out the solution.

• 27:23Chris Voss?

  Right, right, right. How am I supposed to get you the car in that timeframe?

• 27:27Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 27:27Chris Voss?

  Cause that's what you're trying to express. There actually is a time problem here.

• 27:31Lewis Howes?

  Right. In sixty seconds, how am I supposed to get you a car?

• 27:34Chris Voss?

  Right, right. That, that's different than we can get a car, we just need sixty more seconds.

• 27:40Lewis Howes?

  Right. We need more time, yeah, yeah.

• 27:42Chris Voss?

  Right. Cause, cause now I think, now I think you're ducking me.

• 27:45Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 27:46Chris Voss?

  But if you, instead you say like, how am I, you know, you, of course the cars are out here right away, but first of all, I gotta, I gotta tell everybody what we're gonna do. I don't need anybody to get surprised. Let's talk through the details of how this is gonna get done. In the meantime. What got you here in the first place? You know, how do you find yourself into this kind of a situation? How do I make sure I get you out of there alive? The succession of how questions. How am I supposed to promise to get you a car? If I don't know that she's gonna come out alive? You take what you want and make it the path to what I want. You know, how am I supposed to get you in here?

• 28:30Chris Voss?

  If it doesn't benefit me also?

• 28:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:33Chris Voss?

  So as soon as in any negotiation, what I want is now a means of getting what you want. Then that changes the dynamic right away.

• 28:44Lewis Howes?

  So how do you deal in a negotiation with the kind of person who has to win? Who has to get everything they want? They're very controlling, alpha.

• 28:52Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 28:52Lewis Howes?

  And it's their way or no way.

• 28:55Chris Voss?

  Well, getting everything they want is actually third on their list. First of all, being in control is number one on their list. And that's emotionally satisfying. The second thing is the alpha type, which is, we refer to that as the assertive. The one thing that's more important to them than actually getting what they want is being respected. And making sure that you know everything about what they're coming from. So and it's a classic guy who's working for his boss and said, you know what? My boss didn't do what I wanted him to do, but he heard me out. Or she heard me out. I can live with the direction that we're going as long as I know that my boss knows my opinion.

• 29:40Chris Voss?

  And so that the assertive type of negotiator, it's really more important to them that they felt that they conducted themselves respected, respectably. That you respected them and that you knew what they were coming from. And once they know those things, they'll actually soften up on what they want.

• 29:58Lewis Howes?

  If they feel disrespected, they'll probably be more frustrated and angry and

• 30:02Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 30:02Lewis Howes?

  demanding.

• 30:03Chris Voss?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 30:04Lewis Howes?

  So you

• 30:04Chris Voss?

  Because when they're very demanding, what they're really saying to you subtly is, I want you to know how important this is to me.

• 30:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:11Chris Voss?

  I want you to know how important I am.

• 30:14Lewis Howes?

  So how do you meet that person? Just come to them with respect or with calm?

• 30:19Chris Voss?

  And you know, you could say, look, you're impressive. You're phenomenal.

• 30:23Lewis Howes?

  You've thought it's all out. This is very.

• 30:25Chris Voss?

  Yeah, I mean, clearly you know where you're coming from. You know what you want.

• 30:30Chris Voss?

  I'm lucky to be talking to you at all.

• 30:33Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:33Chris Voss?

  I mean, if were I to sit down with Donald Trump, I would in fact be lucky to be in the same room with him. That'd be the first thing I'd say to him. I'd say, you're an American icon.

• 30:44Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:44Chris Voss?

  You know, you're the symbol of American business, certainly in New York City. Yeah, you know, stroking their ego is not a bad thing. And you know, it's a version of empathy. Cause that's how they see themselves. And you know, the emotional recognition, like emotional currency is not going to solve every deal. I just don't want to try to solve any deal with money when I could have solved it with emotional currency. I'm saving my money.

• 31:12Lewis Howes?

  With emotional empathy, currency, intelligence.

• 31:15Chris Voss?

  Right, right. My money's too important to me to waste it when I could buy something with satisfaction.

• 31:23Chris Voss?

  So, yeah, I mean, I'm enormously tight with my dollars.

• 31:26Lewis Howes?

  And so many people, or especially men in business deals, I feel like there's a lot of alpha men who are trying to get what they want. And so somehow they'll lose money because they're not able to have empathy or they're not able to whatever. They're not able to drop their ego.

• 31:42Chris Voss?

  Yeah, a lot of money's left on the table over stuff like that. Or what they value themselves on. Like, price is the most emotional term in a negotiation because you value yourself based on price. But if I can get you to value yourself in another way, it puts you on a magazine cover.

• 32:01Lewis Howes?

  Stroke their ego in some other way.

• 32:03Chris Voss?

  It used to be you'd get Donald Trump at any magazine you wanted to if you put him on a cover. You know, imagine the amount of time, and that used to be his deal. If you wanted to do an article on Donald Trump, the deal was he made the cover. And, and then he would knock himself out for the people doing the articles.

• 32:19Lewis Howes?

  Oh, yeah.

• 32:20Chris Voss?

  On access.

• 32:21Lewis Howes?

  Anything.

• 32:21Chris Voss?

  Answering questions. Imagine how valuable his time was. They got a cover to the magazine anyway, they got to put somebody on it.

• 32:29Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:29Chris Voss?

  You know, now they're trading something that costs them nothing.

• 32:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:32Chris Voss?

  And he's giving them dynamic interviews.

• 32:35Lewis Howes?

  And he's promoting them hard and he's sharing them with everyone.

• 32:38Chris Voss?

  Yeah, exactly right.

• 32:39Lewis Howes?

  Everywhere and.

• 32:40Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 32:41Chris Voss?

  Yeah, so you, you know, you're buying Donald Trump with emotional recognition.

• 32:45Lewis Howes?

  Uh, so what are the characteristics that make a great negotiator? In your field and also how do those translate into the business and relationship world? Just in general, outside of.

• 32:57Chris Voss?

  Well, let the other side go first. Um. You know, most people have, are so, so they're burning with their argument. Here's why you should make this deal. And they've got that memorized and, and they're not going to listen to a word you say till they get it out. So trying to talk to them is really like trying to talk to a paranoid schizophrenic.

• 33:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:19Chris Voss?

  Cause they're rehearsing their speech in their head and their logic. And so they, they just, you just can't get through to them. So you let them go, you let them go first and. Um, another guy, Ned Colletti, uh, former GM of the Dodgers, friend of mine here in town, phenomenal negotiator. He's lectured at, uh, in my class at USC also. You know, and Ned always likes to let the other side go first. You know, he, he did the Barry Bonds deal. He's done a ton of deals across the board. And Ned says, well, you know, in a two hour phone call, there's going to be 90 seconds of solid gold. Where my, the person I'm talking to. Based on changes that they made in their tone of voice and the adjectives that they used. I mean, he's got an instinct for it.

• 34:02Chris Voss?

  He couldn't, he couldn't identify, he's just always saying it's 90 seconds of solid gold. And I'd say, what is that?

• 34:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 34:08Chris Voss?

  And we, we talk it through and he says, well, yeah, it's going to be a change in the tone of voice. It's going to be a different kind of adjective. So Ned wants you to go first because he wants to know what's going to take to make the deal.

• 34:18Lewis Howes?

  What they want.

• 34:19Chris Voss?

  Right. Yeah. What they what they're burning for or how they characterize what they have.

• 34:25Lewis Howes?

  Or what they're not saying too, maybe.

• 34:26Chris Voss?

  Exactly right. What someone has failed to say is often a lot more important than what they have said. Which is why I give it a little thought in advance. All right, what they're gonna, what are they gonna say if they if they've got this? So I I actually like to look for more of what they haven't said, what's glaringly missing. And that's gonna take, I'm gonna need you to walk through it a couple of times before that jumps out at me.

• 34:51Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. Okay, okay. Um, who are the most difficult people to work with then? Would you say it's the alpha people? Or would you say it's the uncertain people? Or what type of people are hard to work in negotiation with?

• 35:03Chris Voss?

  You know, you're talking about a little bit of a tight match that that has a has a tendency. It's a little bit based on how bad I want to make the deal. Like, I don't like liars.

• 35:13Chris Voss?

  Or I don't like, the most difficult people to work with in the long run are people who haven't thought anything through. Which is as bad as a liar, only their heart's not in the wrong place.

• 35:24Lewis Howes?

  They don't know what they want specifically.

• 35:26Chris Voss?

  Or they don't know how how they're gonna, they don't know how they're gonna get this done, which is, again, we go over and over again. I go over and over again. Yes is nothing without how. Like, and the person who thinks like, yes, is gonna make a deal. Well, yes, is not gonna make a deal because you gotta have how. How are we gonna put this together? And someone that doesn't think things through, a lot of times, they're actually kind of dysfunctional on their own side. So they'll make promises they can't keep, and they have no idea they can't keep those promises. And so when they take your deal, you think you've done a deal with them, they take it back to their company. Their company goes like, no, we're not doing this. This is a stupid idea. We can't do this. And that happens a lot. I think in in a private sector, I've heard from a number of companies

• 36:09Chris Voss?

  that fully 50% of the deals that they make that don't go through get killed internally. Because somebody cut a deal for them and they took it back to the company. The company says, no, that violates our terms and conditions. We can't deliver on that basis. So you're dealing with someone who just has no, doesn't have a clue as to what's going on on their side. There are a lot of people like that.

• 36:30Lewis Howes?

  When you're making a business deal, what do you recommend as the amount of time to consider the deal? Before saying, yes, let's do it. Like, here's the deal points, here's what you want, here's what I want. Okay, should we sign it right away? Should we give it 24 hours? Should we take it to our team? Should it be a week? You know, what's like kind of a standard, you think?

• 36:49Chris Voss?

  Um, unless you've got something in line ahead of time. Um, the company name is the Black Swan Group. Cause we believe there's black swans in every negotiation, which is something you didn't know. That as soon as you found out, it's going to change all the parameters.

• 37:03Lewis Howes?

  The deal, gotcha.

• 37:04Chris Voss?

  So you sit down at the table to find out the unknowns.

• 37:07Lewis Howes?

  Huh.

• 37:08Chris Voss?

  And you, it's impossible to research all the unknowns. Plus a lot of the unknowns, I'll find them a lot faster if I just ask you. And I could research for two weeks, something that I may be able to get you to tell me about in 10 minutes.

• 37:21Lewis Howes?

  For example, what do you mean, something you'd want to ask?

• 37:23Chris Voss?

  Um, I'm do, I'm, uh, speaking to a long, for a long time client. And they have another firm that I've been affiliated with coming, doing a different block. When I found out they were doing that block, I could subtly reach back through my network to find out what the, the competing slash partnership firm of mine is. What they're charging, or I could just flat out.

• 37:46Lewis Howes?

  Ask them.

• 37:47Chris Voss?

  Well, I need to get the information, a lot of information you gotta get by not asking. You gotta trigger it. You know, the phrase, ask good questions. It's really get good information. And a lot of times you won't tell me stuff if I ask. But if I act like I already know, or if I, there are other ways hostage negotiators trigger information without asking questions. And hostage negotiators get that information to make you feel good about giving it at the same time.

• 38:17Lewis Howes?

  So give me an example, either in a hostage or a business deal, what that kind of trigger could be.

• 38:21Chris Voss?

  Well, it's gonna be, it's gonna be some sort of a statement. I might say, look, I'm, I'm sure my, my competing company's charging twice as much as I am.

• 38:28Lewis Howes?

  Oh, and then they'll tell you the answer.

• 38:30Chris Voss?

  They want to correct me.

• 38:32Lewis Howes?

  Oh, actually, no, it's the same, or actually, you're getting a better deal.

• 38:35Chris Voss?

  Never underestimate the other side's desire to correct you.

• 38:38Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:40Chris Voss?

  Because it makes people feel powerful and smart. You know, you're gonna want to feel smarter than me. One, one of my clients is negotiating a deal for a commercial office building in South Carolina. And it's a, it's almost a hundred percent occupancy. It's in a mixed use historic area, so it means that the building can't be knocked down. And nobody can build it because it's an historic area. And so the building's basically impossible to replace, and it's a hundred percent occupancy. Makes no sense to sell the building. So they're genuinely thinking, why is the seller selling? First of all, you can't ask why, because why makes people defensive. If I look at you and I say, why did you wear a black shirt?

• 39:23Chris Voss?

  Your instant thought is gonna be like, do I gotta defend a black shirt?

• 39:26Lewis Howes?

  Why, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:27Chris Voss?

  Yeah, so you need to find out why, but you can't ask why, because it makes people defensive.

• 39:31Lewis Howes?

  So what would you ask there?

• 39:33Chris Voss?

  Well, then again, you don't want to ask at all, because if you're smarter, you change your why, why's the whats. And it's more likely to respond if you say, you know, what's making the seller want to sell? So, you know, what is causing them to do that?

• 39:46Lewis Howes?

  Not why are they selling?

• 39:47Chris Voss?

  But instead, what my student did was he said, well, seems to me the seller's selling a cash cow because of a disbelief in the market fundamentals and the future of the, of the building.

• 40:00Lewis Howes?

  Now, let me correct you. This is why I'm doing.

• 40:02Chris Voss?

  Exactly. And the other side was like, no, no, no, they, they got, they got a couple of buildings that are underwater. Now, I don't, I can't imagine a real estate agent answering that question ever. I mean, this is, this is highly confidential.

• 40:16Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:16Chris Voss?

  For private, they, you know, my seller is desperate for money is, is what the, what the answer was, but because it was a correction. And people love to correct. They'll correct you without thinking it through. It's an involuntary response, a desire to sound smarter than you and to be right and correct you, which is a burning desire in most people because it makes me feel smart, more powerful. And I'll seize every opportunity to feel smarter, more powerful. You're at the table.

• 40:43Lewis Howes?

  Gosh, it's like a chess.

• 40:45Chris Voss?

  It's emotional chess.

• 40:46Lewis Howes?

  Emotional chess. I love this.

• 40:48Chris Voss?

  Emotional chess.

• 40:49Lewis Howes?

  And how do women and men compare as negotiators? As counter, as counterparts either against each other or woman, man, woman, woman, man, man? Is there differences?

• 41:02Chris Voss?

  See, I think a powerful woman negotiator is a woman who's really good at negotiations, almost unstoppable.

• 41:07Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 41:08Chris Voss?

  And I think that the reinforcement, the societal reinforcement is constantly trying to pound men into being better negotiators and constantly trying to pound women away from it. And I think that, I think that the step from sympathy to empathy is a shorter step. And women are socialized to be sympathetic. And I don't think that, you know, whether or not it's nature or nurture, I know there's a lot more pressure societally and culturally, culturally for women to be like that. And I, in my class, women pick my style of negotiation up faster than the men do. And the women go to my class, start cutting bigger and better deals faster than the men do.

• 41:50Lewis Howes?

  In business or in life or in just?

• 41:52Chris Voss?

  In both.

• 41:53Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 41:53Chris Voss?

  So in, in, in my view, I think that-

• 41:56Lewis Howes?

  Like after they graduate, they go on to do?

• 41:58Chris Voss?

  Well, in the class.

• 41:59Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 42:00Chris Voss?

  You got, you got to negotiate with skin of the game in my class. And almost all of my students are rising star business executives. So.

• 42:08Lewis Howes?

  Mock negotiations, they're making more is what you're saying?

• 42:10Chris Voss?

  No, in real life, man.

• 42:11Lewis Howes?

  Real life.

• 42:12Chris Voss?

  You gotta take my stuff and put it in real life while you're in my class and you gotta write about it.

• 42:17Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:17Chris Voss?

  And one, you know, I've got everything from a billion dollar Wall Street transaction. People in my class use the tools for I get a USC get a lot of commercial real estate estate transactions.

• 42:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:30Chris Voss?

  Lot of people buying commercial real estate that are that are working on MBAs. I've got a lot of those transactions. Got, you know, my favorite, my favorite way to say no, which I got, you know, the how question before.

• 42:40Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 42:41Chris Voss?

  The favorite way to say no is how am I supposed to do that? Just real calm deference, there's great power in deference. You know, that's, and that's what I did kidnappings, bank robberies, everything. How, how am I supposed to do that?

• 42:53Lewis Howes?

  What if they say, I don't care, figure it out, or she's dead.

• 42:56Chris Voss?

  Well, then you know that you've pushed them as far as you can. And that means you got to pivot to something else. Now, and, and that's actually where you want to get to.

• 43:04Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:05Chris Voss?

  Cause a strategy of negotiation is find out you want to max every term if you can. And the only way to max that is to find out that I've hit you to the full limit without making you angry enough that you slam your hands down and walk away. Cause even your reaction just now.

• 43:21Lewis Howes?

  Or you shoot someone.

• 43:22Chris Voss?

  Or you shoot someone. Your reaction to this now was like, look, you gotta do it or things are gonna go bad. And it was, uh, one of my, one of my students here in town is negotiating for, uh, uh, for a luxury client to rent a house in Hollywood Hills. And, you know, 20 grand a month was a rental.

• 43:40Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 43:41Chris Voss?

  And.

• 43:41Lewis Howes?

  They were trying to get the rental or they were trying to lease?

• 43:44Chris Voss?

  Trying to get it.

• 43:44Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 43:45Chris Voss?

  And so.

• 43:46Lewis Howes?

  The person said it's 20 grand a month.

• 43:47Chris Voss?

  Right. And, and, and it's for very well, his client's extremely wealthy, so that, you know, and you're negotiating wealthy market, the other side always thinks you got all the money in the world. And so, uh, he just said, how, how am I supposed to do that? And they said, okay, well, and they shifted the terms and they cut the price and they moved a bunch of other terms around. Then they negotiated for a while longer. And then he said, again, on the price, he says, how my client, how's my client supposed to pay that? And the realtor says, if your client wants the house, he's gotta pay it. Bang, you got a deal. When the other side says, if you want it, you have to do it. Which will come at usually after the second, third time that you said, how am I supposed to do that?

• 44:26Lewis Howes?

  Knock it down a little more on a car, a real estate deal, whatever it is.

• 44:29Chris Voss?

  Now, now you've maxed that term. Now you move on to something else. So you make the deal, but you needed to know that you pushed them as far as you could have. Without them storming out, without them saying, Chris Voss is not any fun to deal with. I would never do business with him again. Then, how am I supposed to do that in a deferential way?

• 44:48Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 44:48Chris Voss?

  They still feel in control.

• 44:50Lewis Howes?

  You're not, you're not saying, screw you. That's too much. Like, what are you, out of your mind?

• 44:53Chris Voss?

  Right. And if you don't make the deal at that point, then what they say after the fact, they say, you know, uh, I didn't make a deal, but I'd deal with them again. You know, they're, they're, they're all right, they're all right to, uh, to deal with.

• 45:06Lewis Howes?

  Did they get the lease? How much did they get?

• 45:08Chris Voss?

  Yeah, they got it.

• 45:09Lewis Howes?

  How much, you know?

• 45:10Chris Voss?

  Uh, they, they knocked it down to less than 20 and then they got some softness on some other terms.

• 45:15Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 45:15Chris Voss?

  And then they, then they cut the deal for the house.

• 45:17Lewis Howes?

  There you go.

• 45:18Chris Voss?

  And I wish I was paying 20 grand a month for a house.

• 45:20Lewis Howes?

  That's a lot of money for a house. 20 grand a month. Wow. That's a rich, rich student.

• 45:27Chris Voss?

  Yeah. Well, USA, they get, you know, people that are involved in a lot of lucrative deals.

• 45:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. So you're saying, what is the importance of empathy in a negotiation? When I'm hearing you say it's extremely important? And that's why you feel like a woman would be a better negotiator in general? Because they have more empathy in general or?

• 45:45Chris Voss?

  Well, it's the shortest. Most people have confused sympathy with empathy.

• 45:49Lewis Howes?

  Okay, what's the difference?

• 45:51Chris Voss?

  Um, empathy is, I can see you're upset. It's just identifying how you feel. Uh, sympathy is like, wow, I feel bad for you.

• 46:00Lewis Howes?

  Oh. Feeling sorry or bad for someone is sympathy?

• 46:03Chris Voss?

  Sympathy. It's, it's, it is in fact, it doesn't help anybody. Like, I don't care if you feel bad for me.

• 46:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:10Chris Voss?

  I could care less.

• 46:11Lewis Howes?

  So sympathy is not a good thing?

• 46:12Chris Voss?

  Sympathy is a weakness.

• 46:14Lewis Howes?

  As a negotiator?

• 46:14Chris Voss?

  As a negotiation.

• 46:16Lewis Howes?

  Empathy is a good thing?

• 46:17Chris Voss?

  Empathy, uh, and tactical empathy, because we've really taken a pass just empathy in general. Like, we've been doing this long enough that I know what I'm looking for before we sit down. I know that I need to find out the stuff that are negative emotions for you, because I need to get them out of the way of the deal. And I need to find out the stuff that are positive emotions for you because I want to reinforce that to make the deal. And I know that the negatives are going to have be a bigger deal to you than positives are.

• 46:47Lewis Howes?

  So can you give an example of this in a business deal? What that would.

• 46:50Chris Voss?

  Well, if I don't, if I don't, if I don't like doing business with Donald Trump at all, then if he get, if he's annoyed me to the point where I get enough satisfaction keeping money out of his hands, I won't make that deal. Or if I'm at a business deal where the other side, and I've thought about this, like you annoy me so much.

• 47:10Lewis Howes?

  That I don't want you to get any.

• 47:11Chris Voss?

  That I'll take less money to keep you out.

• 47:14Lewis Howes?

  Right. So how would you eliminate something like that, that negative in the deal so that you could?

• 47:19Chris Voss?

  Well, then, then say like, if I think that you're negative towards me, I'm going to say, look, I'm, I'm sure it seems like I'm greedy here. If I say to you like, I'm sure I'm going to seem very greedy here, that sets me up to ask for a lot of money. Because there's actually, um, science that backs this up now. Identifying a negative diminishes it every time. So if I'm going to make a big grab for the money, you're going to think I'm greedy. And I need to get that out of the way because if I'm too greedy, you're going to, you're going to get some satisfaction by keeping me from the money, even if you don't get any. And so I'm going to say, look, I'm going to, I'm going to seem real greedy here. I'm going to seem like I'm very self-centered and that I'm greedy and that I'm not looking out for you at all.

• 48:06Chris Voss?

  And I'll just let it sit. And you'll take a lot more from me, a lot, a lot. You, you'll allow me to take more if I've said that.

• 48:15Lewis Howes?

  Upfront, really?

• 48:15Chris Voss?

  Yeah. Because I've diminished that. Your, your thought is like, I mean, how, I can never seem too greedy then. When I make that grab, you're going to say, well, he was honest with me. He told me he wanted a lot of money. He didn't try to say, hey, look, let's do a win-win deal. Now give me all the money. Because if I say I want to do a win-win deal with you, I'm like, hey, I'll be nice to you. I'll look out for you.

• 48:38Lewis Howes?

  And then you try to take ninety and give me ten, it's like, no, it's not a good deal.

• 48:41Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 48:42Lewis Howes?

  But when you say it upfront, then you're more likely to get the deal.

• 48:45Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 48:46Lewis Howes?

  And get more, whatever you want.

• 48:47Chris Voss?

  Right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna seem very honest to you. I'm gonna, you, you, you're gonna like that I was honest with you. And you're gonna say after the fact, like, look.

• 48:56Lewis Howes?

  He was honest.

• 48:56Chris Voss?

  I always knew where he was coming from.

• 48:57Lewis Howes?

  I didn't like the deal, but I did it anyways, or whatever.

• 48:59Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 49:00Lewis Howes?

  Huh, okay.

• 49:01Chris Voss?

  It's, yeah, it's crazy, it's, that's this, this stuff that we found out that works regularly. We had, uh, talk about, another one we talk about in the book. Uh, there was a multimillion dollar deal going down in Washington DC. The subcontractor was very unhappy with the general contractor. And a female negotiator. And they were getting ready to lose everything. And they sat down and they said, you know, I'm sure we seem like the big guy that doesn't care about you. I'm sure we seem like the big general contractor is trying to take complete advantage of the sub. And not appreciate how hard you're working for this and not care about your future at all. And she turned that deal around. When she was done, she took an additional million in profit for herself. And her company and the other side liked them more.

• 49:47Chris Voss?

  So not only did they increase the profit, but they had a better relationship.

• 49:50Lewis Howes?

  This is why being honest upfront or empathetic, or I can see how you might feel that we're gonna do this.

• 49:55Chris Voss?

  It's a tactical approach. There are negatives here. We're gonna address the negatives.

• 50:01Lewis Howes?

  Upfront.

• 50:01Chris Voss?

  And we're gonna make them go away. Yeah, address them upfront. Most people don't want to do that. I already did that. Do you know when I did that to you? I've already done it. Remember when we talked about doing the one-on-one role play?

• 50:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:14Chris Voss?

  I said it was gonna be horrible.

• 50:15Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's true. You said it upfront, yeah.

• 50:17Chris Voss?

  And I always, I always do that every single time the same way, because if you do the role play with me, no matter how it goes. I you know, you're gonna feel like you were beaten beaten up.

• 50:26Lewis Howes?

  Right, but at least you told me I was gonna be.

• 50:28Chris Voss?

  Right, and you can't come out. If I say it's gonna be horrible, you don't you can't ever say, well, he sandbagged me. You know, he caught me off guard. And then then what I always do, then I I diffuse the negative and then I pitch the positive. And most people pitch the positive and hope the negative will go away.

• 50:44Lewis Howes?

  They sandwich the negative. Positive, negative, positive.

• 50:47Chris Voss?

  The same. I don't like sandwich at all.

• 50:48Lewis Howes?

  Start with the negative.

• 50:49Chris Voss?

  Start with the negative. And I said, and you will learn more than anyone else.

• 50:55Lewis Howes?

  So how do you do that in a business deal where you start with, okay, I'm sure you think we're horrible. We're trying to get more than we should or?

• 51:01Chris Voss?

  Well, you know, walking to the table, you can make a really educated guess on what the other side is gonna think of you. If you're a big business dealing with a small business, if you're David and Galath, you know that before you get to the table. Flip side around, if you're new to the industry and you're trying to work your way into the industry, how do you look to somebody who's been in the industry? You look like an intruder. You know, I'm sure I look like an intruder. I'm sure I look wet behind the ears. I'm sure I look like I don't have any experience in this area. Because if I'm new to the industry and I'm talking to somebody who's been in the industry for a while, what I want is money you've got. I want a piece of your pie. It's a nice big pie here and I want to take a big bite out of it. If I'm new to the industry.

• 51:45Chris Voss?

  And so and and you it doesn't take a genius to talk it through and go like, yeah, somebody who's new to the industry is trying to hammer their way in. They got no respect for people who've already been there. And I'll say that, you know, I'm sure I'm sure I look like an intruder here.

• 51:58Lewis Howes?

  So how do you how do you frame the positive afterwards then? You go, I look like an intruder, but?

• 52:04Chris Voss?

  And and then I'll say, and there's money to be made here that wasn't there otherwise. Because if I'm new to the industry, especially if I'm bringing a deal in, I'm bringing you found money. The worst thing I could do is say, hey, look, I got some found money for you. Let me bring this to you.

• 52:21Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 52:21Chris Voss?

  You're gonna be like, you ain't bringing me nothing. I'm fine. I could pay my bills before you walked in the door. I didn't need you to pay my bills. So but I want to make that point. So I'll, I got somewhere I'm going. I'm gonna say, you know, I'm sure I look like an intruder. I'm unappreciative. I'm what behind the ears. You've been here for a thousand years. I, you know, I don't know anything.

• 52:43Lewis Howes?

  It's always lead with the negative or the elephant.

• 52:45Chris Voss?

  Identify the elephant in a room. That's exactly right.

• 52:48Lewis Howes?

  Doesn't have to be negative, but uh.

• 52:50Chris Voss?

  The, the elephant in a room, identify. That elephant always gets smaller. Every time you call the elephant in the room out. Again, and there's a subtle difference too. I never deny it. Like if I, if I, there's a difference between me saying, I'm sure I seem like an intruder. Which is good. And if I say to you, I don't want you to think I'm an intruder. That's a denial. That's gonna be what you're gonna.

• 53:11Lewis Howes?

  I am an intruder.

• 53:11Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 53:12Lewis Howes?

  In your mind.

• 53:13Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 53:13Lewis Howes?

  I'm coming into this new, I'm coming to this. Yeah.

• 53:16Chris Voss?

  Denial magnifies negatives. The subtle difference between denial and observation. And if I say, look, man, I don't, I don't want you to think I'm an intruder here. I don't, I don't want you to think I'm what behind the ears and I don't know what I'm doing. Immediately, you're thinking that. Cause I denied it. And that's why, and that subtle difference is night and day in negotiations. That subtle difference makes all of it. I had, I'm doing, uh, when I'm working on my book deal. I don't know if my agent will listen to this or not, but I use this with my agent one time because I'm a bad client. If somebody's negotiating on my behalf, because at some point in time, I'm gonna jump in with no warning.

• 53:59Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 53:59Chris Voss?

  And not listen to you.

• 54:00Lewis Howes?

  This is how it's supposed to be done. Yeah, yeah.

• 54:02Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah. I can, I can only sit back for so long. And so I'm, I'm getting ready. I'm jumping in the middle of this price negotiation with a potential writer.

• 54:10Lewis Howes?

  Oh, with the writer. Okay.

• 54:11Chris Voss?

  You know, be, before I came across tall, tall is a superstar.

• 54:14Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 54:15Chris Voss?

  He is the best business book writer on the planet.

• 54:17Lewis Howes?

  He's great.

• 54:18Chris Voss?

  And, and so before I came across tall, we're working with, trying to get some going with another guy. And I jumped in the middle of it with no warning without telling my agent. So I, I did it in an email and then I constructed an email to my agent at the same time. Now, if somebody's supposed to be keeping their mouth shut in a negotiation, the name you might call them might be. A loose cannon.

• 54:41Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 54:42Chris Voss?

  Somebody who pipes up when they're supposed to shut up.

• 54:44Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 54:44Chris Voss?

  And they don't check with anybody else, loose cannon. So I sent, I crafted email to my agent at the same time. And I, and at first I wrote it wrong the first time. I'll admit, I said, I don't want you to think I'm a loose cannon. And then I went back and edited it. And I said, I'm sure I seem like a loose cannon.

• 55:03Lewis Howes?

  So he couldn't deny it.

• 55:04Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 55:05Lewis Howes?

  You weren't denying it, you were.

• 55:06Chris Voss?

  But this is a predictable negative. I've seemed like a loose, and I said, I'm sure I seem like a loose cannon. Sent him the email. As soon as he read it, he sent me back. I, no, I don't. I always respect a bold move. So I, I called the negative out. It doesn't take a genius to figure it out. And just call it out, identify the elephant in the room. Don't deny it. If I had to say, no, there ain't no elephant in the room.

• 55:30Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 55:31Chris Voss?

  Yes, there is.

• 55:33Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 55:34Chris Voss?

  And, and he responded immediately.

• 55:37Lewis Howes?

  Were you part of negotiating the, with the publisher as well? Um. Did you let him do the job?

• 55:42Chris Voss?

  No, he, you know, what you need an agent for is really understand terms and conditions.

• 55:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:47Chris Voss?

  And, uh, and he had a great source of intel. And so when, when the deal came through, plus I don't try to get every last dollar and I don't try to get every last percentage.

• 55:56Lewis Howes?

  You want it to be a win-win.

• 55:57Chris Voss?

  Well, I want, I want you to want to continue to do business with me.

• 56:00Lewis Howes?

  In the future, yes.

• 56:01Chris Voss?

  If I cut your throat, you're not going to want to continue to do business with me.

• 56:04Lewis Howes?

  Or if they don't make out what they thought they wanted to, then.

• 56:06Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 56:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:07Chris Voss?

  Right. So yeah, in, in fact, even though I don't use the words.

• 56:12Lewis Howes?

  Win-win.

• 56:12Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 56:13Lewis Howes?

  Why not?

• 56:14Chris Voss?

  Uh, because, uh, just because I, I, first of all, it's shorthand for WIP win.

• 56:20Chris Voss?

  Or so only, only, only two people really actually will throw that out of negotiation. Someone who needs to be a stronger negotiator. Or it's a thousand, it's almost a thousand percent not, you know. If somebody says win-win to me early on, I know they're communicating to me. They're gonna try to make this deal without giving me any money.

• 56:41Lewis Howes?

  Really? I just don't think that way when I say it, though, but maybe that's.

• 56:44Chris Voss?

  Well, you're you're naturally collaborative guy.

• 56:47Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 56:47Chris Voss?

  And you got a lot of you got a lot of non-tangibles to throw on the table to make it a great deal.

• 56:52Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 56:53Chris Voss?

  And a lot of people that haven't thought of those non-tangibles or non-monetary stuff to make it a great deal.

• 56:59Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:00Chris Voss?

  They just know that they got no money.

• 57:02Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:02Chris Voss?

  And if you approach the table, you got no money, how are you gonna make that deal? A lot of people think, well, I gotta, let's make it win-win.

• 57:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 57:10Chris Voss?

  And I'm so wonderful to deal with.

• 57:11Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 57:12Chris Voss?

  That you'll just be famous if you deal with it.

• 57:14Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. So what do you say instead of that? I want to make this good for you and good for me?

• 57:19Chris Voss?

  Well, also, I start I start throwing up stuff that really that's really good for me, that's not gonna cost you a dime. I'm gonna brainstorm with you like crazy as much as I can. And then I'll get you brainstorming. And I was I'm in a discussion today to possibly go to a conference in Chicago. And I already know in advance they got like nothing for fees.

• 57:41Lewis Howes?

  Right, so you're like.

• 57:42Chris Voss?

  Because, yeah, so and so and we start brainstorming and the young lady I'm on the phone with, she says, well, is there anybody that might come to the conference that you would want to meet? And I and my thought was, I don't know who's at the conference, but I do know. I think a really a profession that wants to get better at negotiation is not afraid to admit it. Our baseball scouts. I'm on the phone with or I'm gonna play with a baseball scout. Just yesterday, and he's saying like, look, as a scout, I'm out signing prospects on these million dollar deals. We could have a several hundred thousand dollar swing in a given deal. I'm not a negotiator, I'm a scout. So it occurs to me that these scouts are out there trying to find talent.

• 58:26Chris Voss?

  And then they they have never had time to become better negotiators, except by finding finding out the hard way. You can learn my stuff really fast. I gave this guy a copy of my book. I said, you know what? Read the first 10 pages. If you can't use it, then you know, you don't ever have to talk to me again. The first 10 pages, you learn some stuff you can use right away. So I'm on the phone with this girl for this conference today, and I go like, all right, look. I think I could I could really help out professional baseball organizations to their scouts. Maybe not their GMs who are doing the hundred million dollar deals. But put me in a room with the guys that are doing a million dollar deals. And I said, so if you know anybody for the Cubs or the White Sox, just give me an introduction and we'll, we'll talk about it.

• 59:10Chris Voss?

  That'd be worth me going to this conference for nothing. If I get, if I get a good introduction to something that'll lead me to business.

• 59:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 59:16Chris Voss?

  And she's like, ah, she says, I, you know, I'll check into that because she's right there. And they're, they're running a big conference and, and it's, it's very much good for Chicago and it's good for business people. And most professional sports franchises come to know that what's good for the community is good for them. So that, and it becomes in effect, win-win. I just don't use those terms.

• 59:40Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha. Gotcha. I like it though. Um, how do you become the smartest person in the room?

• 59:46Chris Voss?

  You know, uh, look for emotions first.

• 59:50Lewis Howes?

  Emotions?

• 59:50Chris Voss?

  Yeah. You know what? If I figure out what's driving you, like if I tell what you're passionate about, and you're passionate about getting better, and you're passionate about helping other people, and you're passionate about healthy competition, and, and you are fueled by a great feeling of achievement and comp- competition at the same time. And you're more likely to do stuff and engage in activities that fuel both of those things at the same time. And the openly competitive people are either openly competitive because competition makes it feel good, or, um, it's a defensive thing.

• 1:00:30Chris Voss?

  And you need to know the difference between somebody who attacks you because they're being defensive and afraid they're going to get hurt and they're very fear driven. And a person that's attacking you because they're just very competitive. And a very competitive type just likes competition, makes a great ally. Whereas a person who's, uh, attacking you out of fear, they're not good long-term allies. Cause they're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna feel at some point in time, they gotta screw you before you screw them. And so, understanding the distinctions of those drivers, those two people look almost exactly the same. I had a phenomenal social relationship with a woman who was in real estate here in town three or four years ago.

• 1:01:14Chris Voss?

  And she was, she was very, she was fear of loss, overwhelmingly fear of loss driven.

• 1:01:19Lewis Howes?

  In relationships and business and everything?

• 1:01:22Chris Voss?

  Right. She was always, she was always just horrified that she was getting cheated. And, and she didn't have great, she didn't have great business partnerships. She was very successful, but not a lot of great partners. And that's a, it's a slight change, you know, there's a two millimeter change there between the competitive, because they like competition, or the, or the aggressive assaulted because they're afraid of getting cheated. And I need to know that, those differences, because it's gonna tell me what kind of a partner you're gonna be.

• 1:01:54Lewis Howes?

  How do you know those differences? Just by being aware, listening and?

• 1:01:58Chris Voss?

  Yeah, you know, you, you, uh, the emotional intelligence comes to you really fast when you start looking for it.

• 1:02:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:04Chris Voss?

  That's why that some people are really good at cold reads. Uh, one of the classes I'm teaching at Georgetown right now is a, a really brilliant young lady who's Afghani. And she loves a cold read. Uh, you know, starting to make educated guesses about somebody real quick. And she's talking to a cab driver the other day, and the cab driver turns around and looks at it and says, did my wife send you?

• 1:02:30Lewis Howes?

  Haha.

• 1:02:31Chris Voss?

  Cause she guessed, she guessed the guy's daughter's name. She guessed a lot of things that were accurate about his daughter and his wife, just based on a quick interaction.

• 1:02:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:02:40Chris Voss?

  And for her, it was a game, which is another thing, if it becomes fun for you, you pick it up faster.

• 1:02:45Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:46Chris Voss?

  So, you could get really good at this as soon as you start trying to look. And it, it, it's amazing, it'll also go away quickly too, you gotta watch it.

• 1:02:55Lewis Howes?

  Muscle.

• 1:02:56Chris Voss?

  Yeah. Atrophy, exactly right. You, you gotta, you gotta train on it.

• 1:03:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What's a word you'd never say in a negotiation? Or the worst thing to say?

• 1:03:04Chris Voss?

  Um.

• 1:03:06Lewis Howes?

  Business deals or personal relationships or?

• 1:03:08Chris Voss?

  Uh, uh, depends on what's coming out, uh, whose mouth is coming out of.

• 1:03:12Lewis Howes?

  Like, do you ever say no, or do you ever say?

• 1:03:14Chris Voss?

  You, you know, I might need to say no, I, I'll probably, I like to let no out a little at a time. Which is actually, how am I supposed to do that is the first way that I say no.

• 1:03:23Lewis Howes?

  That's no, without saying no.

• 1:03:24Chris Voss?

  Right, that's that's saying no to what's on the table, but not no to you. Let's figure if we can work this out. There may come a point in time when I, when I say no, said and done. Um, but I'm, I'm gonna need to explore every option there. I mean, I don't say, uh, hearing yes is a bad thing to hear.

• 1:03:44Lewis Howes?

  So don't say yes.

• 1:03:46Chris Voss?

  Yeah, ye- yes in itself, I, I would much rather say, you know, okay, I'll do it. I'd, I'd, I'd love to say you win. Cause when you win, you're gonna perform. Yes is nothing without how. I need you to perform at a top level. You perform at a higher level when you feel like you win. If I, if I hear, if you look at me, we make it daily, say, okay. Well, that's a resigned okay. And we're gonna run into trouble when we go to implement, cause the minute anything bad could happen by you, by your inaction. You know, there's a phrase, never be mean to someone who could hurt you by doing nothing. Which nearly everybody can hurt you by doing nothing.

• 1:04:28Lewis Howes?

  So saying, okay, I'll do it.

• 1:04:29Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:04:30Lewis Howes?

  Or yes, you win, or you win.

• 1:04:32Chris Voss?

  Right, right. I, I, I want you to feel like you won.

• 1:04:35Lewis Howes?

  You win.

• 1:04:36Chris Voss?

  So.

• 1:04:36Lewis Howes?

  You got the better end of the deal.

• 1:04:37Chris Voss?

  Yeah, cause are, are you, are you gonna hold to the deal if you got the best end of the deal?

• 1:04:42Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 1:04:42Chris Voss?

  You're gonna love it, you can brag about it.

• 1:04:43Lewis Howes?

  Awesome, yeah, I got the better end, huh?

• 1:04:45Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:04:45Lewis Howes?

  So you win, okay, I'll do it, you win, you can do both of them together.

• 1:04:49Chris Voss?

  Um, if I say it, that's good, cause you won. If you say it, it's bad to me, because you feel beat. I don't want you to, I don't want you to feel beaten.

• 1:04:57Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:04:57Chris Voss?

  Which is one of the real big problems with negotiation, because since, since I've been getting, helping people get better at it. Like, I get more stories, a guy says, let me tell you about this deal. I had them over a barrel. There was nowhere for them to go, you know, for all intents and purposes, I took them hostage. Well, I guarantee you that the person they beat was as passive aggressive as possible on the implementation of that deal.

• 1:05:23Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:24Chris Voss?

  And they left money on the table.

• 1:05:26Lewis Howes?

  They didn't feel good about it.

• 1:05:27Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:05:28Lewis Howes?

  Huh.

• 1:05:28Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:05:28Lewis Howes?

  So always make the other person feel like they got the better end of the deal. Right?

• 1:05:33Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:05:34Lewis Howes?

  They won.

• 1:05:35Chris Voss?

  And yeah, they won.

• 1:05:36Lewis Howes?

  And.

• 1:05:37Chris Voss?

  It was their idea.

• 1:05:38Lewis Howes?

  It was their idea. I like your idea, I'll do it, something like that.

• 1:05:41Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:05:42Chris Voss?

  Yeah. I mean, that, that, that's really good. And so that's why the one, usually the one word answers of yes and no, those are all so frequently misunderstood.

• 1:05:51Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:52Chris Voss?

  You know, there's three kinds of yeses. There's commitment, confirmation, counterfeit. And most people are used to getting lured into a trap with yes. You know, would you like to make more money? Is it true this is the off season? You know, whatever setup yes there is.

• 1:06:08Lewis Howes?

  Would you like, okay, yeah.

• 1:06:09Chris Voss?

  Um, you know, it's leading someplace.

• 1:06:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:06:13Chris Voss?

  One of my, uh, one of my students is on a honeymoon and he's want to get, um, uh, an upgrade on his bungalow. And it's the off season in this, in this resort. Now, what they typically do is they cut prices on, on their basic rooms, but they don't cut.

• 1:06:31Lewis Howes?

  honeymoon suites.

• 1:06:32Chris Voss?

  But not the honeymoon suites. And he, but he knows they're all vacant. Now, what he, he doesn't want to cut price on a regular room. He wants a honeymoon suite. And he starts out the conversation with like, you know, isn't it true? This is the off season. That general manager knows there's a trap there.

• 1:06:50Lewis Howes?

  What'd he say?

• 1:06:50Chris Voss?

  And, and so the guy starts going sideways on him immediately.

• 1:06:54Lewis Howes?

  Really? He didn't say yes?

• 1:06:55Chris Voss?

  Right. He didn't want to say yes, cause he knows that yes is commitment and yes is probably a trap. And he, he knows, I don't know where you're going with this, but you're going someplace.

• 1:07:04Lewis Howes?

  That's what he said?

• 1:07:05Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:06Lewis Howes?

  And then what happened?

• 1:07:07Chris Voss?

  Well, and, and so then, uh, my student realized that, you know, he fell into this, this yes trap thing. So he had to kind of, he had to kind of get back out of it. And they started talking and instead of trying to get yeses and no's on him, he started describing the situation. He started showing him a little bit. Yeah, well, I'm sure you know, a lot of guys on it, like me come in, we want a room, we don't want to pay anything for it. You get so many tourists that are in here in the off season and they're cheap. That's why they're here in the off season anyway, cause they're cheap to start with. And they don't want to pay anything for, for anything anyway. Now the managers appreciate where guys come from.

• 1:07:42Lewis Howes?

  Ah. He ends up. Leading with the negative.

• 1:07:45Chris Voss?

  Right. He ends up getting the upgrade.

• 1:07:47Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:07:48Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Lewis Howes?

  Free because he built a relationship and.

• 1:07:50Chris Voss?

  Yeah, the guy, the guy, the guy's got an empty room.

• 1:07:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Chris Voss?

  Never been meeting somebody that could hurt you by doing nothing. Not giving you the, the empty room is doing nothing. You know, you want this guy to give you a favor. And he doesn't own the hotel. And those rooms are normally vacant anyway. So his owner, whoever owns the hotel, they're not mad at him because those rooms are empty. They expected them to be empty.

• 1:08:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:14Chris Voss?

  So he's got options. You know, ultimately you want to make the pitch like, you know, you give me that upgrade, I'm going to be a fan for life. I'm going to tell everybody how well I was treated. I would tell all my friends about this.

• 1:08:24Lewis Howes?

  Something I've done for like the last 10 years, a friend of mine told me this line that he's like, you know, if you ever want an upgrade, if you ever want like something better in the deal, use this line. And I swear I've been using it. Maybe it's been wrong, but I'd love your opinion.

• 1:08:38Chris Voss?

  All right.

• 1:08:39Lewis Howes?

  I say, what's the chance you can help me with this?

• 1:08:41Chris Voss?

  All right. So that's a, that's a what question to start with.

• 1:08:43Lewis Howes?

  What's the chance?

• 1:08:43Chris Voss?

  Two things about that that I like. Um, first of all, it's a what question.

• 1:08:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Chris Voss?

  And secondly, um.

• 1:08:51Lewis Howes?

  What's the chance you can upgrade me?

• 1:08:52Chris Voss?

  You're, uh, elevating the person when you ask it proud.

• 1:08:55Lewis Howes?

  So you're giving them power, right?

• 1:08:56Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:08:56Lewis Howes?

  The opportunity to have power.

• 1:08:58Chris Voss?

  Right. Yeah. So there's, and, and I don't know that I changed that sentence at all. I might say in advance, like, look, this is really going to seem greedy of me.

• 1:09:07Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:08Chris Voss?

  You know, because you can't, you can't.

• 1:09:10Lewis Howes?

  Leading with the negative.

• 1:09:11Chris Voss?

  Leading, leading with the negative. If you, if you try to call out a negative that's not there, you won't plant it. If you try to deny a negative that's not there, you plant that baby. That's why you have to know the difference between a denial and a straight observation. And those, that's a subtle difference because you're, you're probably going to want to say before you ask a guy for a discount, you're probably going to say, this guy's going to think I'm cheap and I'm greedy. I don't want them to think that. So if you mention it all, you get instinct to say, look, I don't want to, I don't want, I want you, I don't want you to think I'm cheap and greedy here. That's a denial, that plants it.

• 1:09:46Lewis Howes?

  So I bet you might think that I'm being a little greedy.

• 1:09:49Chris Voss?

  I'm sure it's, I'm sure it's gonna seem greedy.

• 1:09:52Lewis Howes?

  I'm coming, I'm being greedy, but what's the chance you can help, you can upgrade me?

• 1:09:56Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:57Lewis Howes?

  You can support me in getting that.

• 1:09:58Chris Voss?

  And, and so if you're, if asking for an upgrade as a human being, the guy's gonna, no, that's not greedy. You want him, you want him thinking no, you want him saying no. No is a great answer because when somebody says no, they have just protected and defended themselves. Like it's ridiculous. You will be stunned at what people are willing to say no to. I mean, just absolutely stunned. I'm, I'm, I'm coaching a guy who's working on a new position with the city of Beverly Hills. And they, they're constructing, since it's a new position, he sees his job description, he wants to take, but it's problematic the way they put it together.

• 1:10:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:40Chris Voss?

  And he says, how do I negotiate with these guys? Cause this job description is not gonna make it work. And I said, look at, look at, look at him across the table and say, do you want me to fail?

• 1:10:51Chris Voss?

  And their answer is no. And I said, well, look at how this is set up. You know, I'd love to have this job, but he, instead of saying, he wants to sit down with him and say, hey, look, this is never gonna work the way you guys designed this.

• 1:11:04Lewis Howes?

  Right. You can't say that though.

• 1:11:06Chris Voss?

  You can't say that.

• 1:11:07Lewis Howes?

  Cause they're coming from defense mode or something.

• 1:11:09Chris Voss?

  Right, right, right. Now their ego's in a way where you say, because when you say, you, do you want me to fail? I mean, that, that's, that's, that gives them a beginning to help you. Yeah, they say no, they protect themselves. You then come to the other guy's rescue. I mean, you, you're punching a lot of really powerful emotional triggers there. When you say to somebody, you want me to fail?

• 1:11:30Chris Voss?

  And, and one way or the other, I mean, we try to sit down and think of the most ridiculous question that they would never say yes to. Like if, if, if at the end of the negotiation, uh, if I can't, if my, one of my last things I'm always gonna say is like, if you can't budge at all, I'll say, all right, well, look, uh, it seems like your power is here.

• 1:11:53Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 1:11:54Chris Voss?

  Cause nobody wants to say yes to that.

• 1:11:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:11:58Chris Voss?

  Seems like there's nothing you could do. Seems like you're completely powerless here. And they'll put you on hold. They'll find a way to help.

• 1:12:06Lewis Howes?

  So it seems like you're powerless. You can't help me. It sounds like you're powerless here.

• 1:12:10Chris Voss?

  Right. Nobody, everyone would say yes to that.

• 1:12:11Lewis Howes?

  Wow. That is powerful.

• 1:12:14Chris Voss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:12:15Lewis Howes?

  Do you use that a lot when you're?

• 1:12:17Chris Voss?

  At the end of any deal.

• 1:12:18Lewis Howes?

  Or anything or something?

• 1:12:19Chris Voss?

  At the end of any deal, if we haven't come to an agreement that, that I'm happy with, that'll be the last thing. I'll say, it seems like there's nothing I could say. And it seems like you're powerless.

• 1:12:29Lewis Howes?

  Seems like nothing that you could say to them to get what you need.

• 1:12:32Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:12:33Lewis Howes?

  Or for them to move the deal points. And it seems like you're powerless. They're powerless.

• 1:12:37Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:12:38Lewis Howes?

  Oh, God. That's powerful.

• 1:12:40Chris Voss?

  So, yeah, we, we, a lot of people have cut deals by, they thought it was completely in the tank. They're actually just trying to end positively. It's really, it's critical to end positively.

• 1:12:51Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. So give me one little extra thing then, if, you know, they want to end positively, not like, yeah, I'm powerless here. So let's do the deal.

• 1:12:57Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Lewis Howes?

  Okay, I'll throw in this, or I'll give you this, or?

• 1:13:00Chris Voss?

  Yeah. Like I make it, I make it a regular part. Uh, like my credit cards, almost all of them got fees. And I call every year, ask them to waive the fee.

• 1:13:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:11Chris Voss?

  And, and they almost always do until the guy says, well, we waived the fee on you the last five years in a row.

• 1:13:17Lewis Howes?

  It sounds like you're powerless here.

• 1:13:18Chris Voss?

  And I'll say, yeah, I'll say that. I'll say, it sounds like you're absolutely powerless here. It sounds like you're nothing, nothing you could do. And they'll put me on hold. And if they find anything. They'll come back and do it. Cause nobody wants to be powerless.

• 1:13:31Lewis Howes?

  Oh, wow. That's great. Um, let's finish with the final few questions. Make sure you guys get the book here. This is fascinating. Never Split the Difference. Negotiating as if your life depended on it. Some powerful insights in this interview so far. And I know you have a framework for negotiating in the book. Um, final few questions. What are you most grateful for in your life recently?

• 1:13:55Chris Voss?

  I'm just, I'm grateful that my son still is in business with me. That my son can tolerate me.

• 1:14:03Chris Voss?

  Uh, I've run across nearly everyone that I've run across since I've been in LA. I'm just happy in one way or another that they've come into my life. Uh, I gotta tell you, I'm grateful to be, I know it's gonna sound like a cliche. I'm grateful to be sitting here right now. I think, I think this, when I started finding out about you and all the cool stuff that you've done.

• 1:14:23Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it.

• 1:14:24Chris Voss?

  And how much positive positivity and, and help you're bringing people. I mean, I think that, I think that's incredible.

• 1:14:30Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it.

• 1:14:31Chris Voss?

  People who listen to your podcast are getting phenomenal value out of it.

• 1:14:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I appreciate it. See how he's ending on a positive? See how good this is?

• 1:14:40Chris Voss?

  And I meant it.

• 1:14:41Lewis Howes?

  I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:44Lewis Howes?

  Cool. There's a, there's a question we, we ask at the end called the three truths. And this is, if it's the last day for you, many, many years from now, your books have been erased. All your techniques have been deleted from time. The information you put out to the world is gone for whatever reason. And, um, you have a piece of paper and your great, great grandchildren comes up to you and says, will you write down the three things you know to be true about everything you learned in business, relationship, school, FBI, everything in life you've learned? Coming down to three simple truths that you would pass on to us. That's all the thing we know to live our lives by. What would be those three truths?

• 1:15:24Chris Voss?

  Yeah, be generous. It'll, it'll come back to you. Much more than you could ever imagined.

• 1:15:32Chris Voss?

  Uh, yeah, work, work hard. Be generous, work hard, be honest. I mean, uh, any, any, any of the opposites to those are just damaging shortcuts. Just really damaging shortcuts. Um, you could, so yeah, they're just. Be generous, work hard, be honest.

• 1:15:52Lewis Howes?

  I like it. Simple and effective. I like this.

• 1:15:55Chris Voss?

  Thanks.

• 1:15:55Lewis Howes?

  Um, make sure you guys get this book, Never Split the Difference. Where can we connect with you online?

• 1:16:00Chris Voss?

  Uh, blackswanltd.com, B L A C K S W A N L T D, like limited.com. We are not ballerinas.

• 1:16:12Chris Voss?

  So who be the, the blacks? Yeah, we, yeah, but we're, you know, we're very agile. We like to have a lot of bounds.

• 1:16:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:18Chris Voss?

  Ballerinas are actually great athletes, so.

• 1:16:20Lewis Howes?

  They are. And you're at Voss Negotiation on Twitter?

• 1:16:23Chris Voss?

  Yes.

• 1:16:24Lewis Howes?

  Are you on the Instagram and the Facebook as well?

• 1:16:26Chris Voss?

  Uh, Black Swan LTD on Facebook. Uh, I haven't plugged into Instagram yet. Uh, I would imagine, uh, we will soon, as soon as I drag myself into the 21st century.

• 1:16:36Lewis Howes?

  Perfect. Um, and again, it's a former FBI top hostage negotiator's field-tested tools for talking anyone into or out of just about anything. So this is extremely important in terms of personal relationships, family relationships,

• 1:16:54Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:55Lewis Howes?

  intimate relationships, friendships, business relationships.

• 1:16:58Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:16:58Lewis Howes?

  Any type of relationships, this is going to support you. I think it's a must-read and understand if you want to have peace in your life. Because negotiation is a constant thing that we go through all the time, especially when you have kids, all these different things. You're always going to be negotiating something.

• 1:17:15Chris Voss?

  Right.

• 1:17:16Lewis Howes?

  You might as well be good at it.

• 1:17:18Chris Voss?

  Yeah, you might as well enjoy it.

• 1:17:20Lewis Howes?

  You might as well enjoy and have fun with it. So, um, before I ask the final question, Chris, I want to acknowledge you for a moment for your incredible skillset that you've developed over the years from all the cases you've dealt with and, and served on a, a huge impact to make sure that people get away safely and

• 1:17:40Chris Voss?

  Thanks.

• 1:17:41Lewis Howes?

  people don't kill anyone and all these things that you've done as, uh, your work at the FBI and also for your service in helping so many of us entrepreneurs and become better entrepreneurs through teaching at USC and Georgetown.

• 1:17:54Chris Voss?

  Georgetown.

• 1:17:55Lewis Howes?

  Georgetown.

• 1:17:55Chris Voss?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:56Lewis Howes?

  And for coming on here and sharing a wealth of information. I feel like I'm pretty good at negotiating, but I feel like I don't know anything after doing this. So I appreciate your wisdom.

• 1:18:05Chris Voss?

  Thanks.

• 1:18:05Lewis Howes?

  All the years of your hard work and for bringing this to life because so many people need this.

• 1:18:10Chris Voss?

  Thank you very much. It's my pleasure. Yeah, I'm honored to do it. I really am.

• 1:18:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Final question is what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:18:17Chris Voss?

  Wow, um, you know, uh, I think someone that had it was both true to themselves and had an impact on their world. Um, because I think people basically really are good, you know? I don't think that we're by definition evil creatures. So if you were, if you were true to your, your nature, then the impact that you have on the world is what the universe put you here for. And so then you would, if you're true to your nature, then like you should be useful to them.

• 1:18:48Lewis Howes?

  Chris Voss, thanks for coming on.

• 1:18:50Chris Voss?

  Thank you, my pleasure.

• 1:18:54Lewis Howes?

  And there you have it. Thank you guys so much for being here and make sure to let me know what you thought. What did you learn from this interview? Share with me in the comments section at the show notes, lewishouse.com/379. Post this on your social media, put it on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram and let people know about how they can become a better negotiator in the business world and any part of their lives. This was super fun for me. I loved being interrogated and going through the exercise. Make sure to grab a copy of Chris's book. Also, we've got all the information back at the show notes, lewishouse.com/379 so you can follow Chris, learn more about him, get the book, all that

• 1:19:35Lewis Howes?

  good stuff. I appreciate you guys very much. If this is your first time here, then welcome. We do this every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and we bring you the most inspiring people in the world to help you unlock your inner greatness and bring your gifts to the world. So thank you for being here. Make sure to subscribe to the podcast over on iTunes, over on Stitcher or SoundCloud and leave a review. Let me know what you think. Leave a review over on iTunes. We've got over a thousand, I think 1100 five-star reviews now. So thank you for your continued support. We couldn't do this without you. We couldn't get the incredible guests without this movement of inspiring people around the world who are asking for these bigger names to come on. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And you

• 1:20:18Lewis Howes?

  know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.