276 Rob Bell on Marriage and Staying True to Yourself

"The moments when we most want to check out are the moments to pay attention like never before." - Rob Bell If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes and more at http://lewishowes.com/276 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 276, Part 2 with Rob Bell.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:33Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone back to this episode. This is Part 2. And we dive in a lot deeper about the meaning of life, interpreting faith, marriage, divorce, same-sex marriage. What's happening after we die? All these topics and more, we dive in. So let's go ahead and dive in with this episode with the one and only, Rob Bell, Part 2.

• 1:01Rob Bell?

  And then, when it comes to like same-gender relationships, there's basically five passages that refer to what we know to be same-gender sex and relationships.

• 1:13Rob Bell?

  I believe none of those passages, there's lots of scholarship on this, are referring to what we're referring to when we talk about like same-sex marriage. Two people in a committed, loving, monogamous relationship. I don't think the Bible is talking about that.

• 1:27Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:28Rob Bell?

  So, when people say, "Well, the Bible's very clear." No, I don't think the Bible's talking about...

• 1:33Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:33Rob Bell?

  Talking about that. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:35Lewis Howes?

  There's so many people that are...

• 1:36Rob Bell?

  They don't even have that category.

• 1:37Lewis Howes?

  So many people that believe in that and that are...

• 1:39Rob Bell?

  Right.

• 1:40Lewis Howes?

  Stick true to that.

• 1:41Rob Bell?

  I know.

• 1:41Lewis Howes?

  And they're not open to evolving and being aware of...

• 1:44Rob Bell?

  Yeah, and they keep quoting, there's basically five passages they quote, they're called the clobber passages.

• 1:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:49Rob Bell?

  And, first off, to use those particular verses, even the words that are used...

• 1:57Lewis Howes?

  Give me an example that someone might use.

• 1:58Rob Bell?

  Here's an example. There's passages in 1 Timothy and 1 Corinthians, which are often most commonly cited. One of the Greek words there that often gets translated, like homosexual, the word actually...

• 2:13Rob Bell?

  Literally refers much more to the idea of effeminate. And here's why. In the ancient Greek culture, there was a spectrum of femininity to masculinity. And the more masculine a man was believed to be, the more he had sex with more different kinds of people, including young boys. And that if a man only had sex with a woman, that he was considered effeminate on the spectrum of sexuality.

• 2:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 2:45Rob Bell?

  So when it speaks of somebody in the ancient Greek world, to say that a man was effeminate meant, this man only has sex with a woman.

• 2:54Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 2:54Rob Bell?

  So some of these words have such a rich, interesting history. And you can even see the history of translating some of these words. Like, the first use of the word homosexual in the Bible is 1973. That's the first time the word homosexual actually is in an English translation of the Bible.

• 3:13Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 3:14Rob Bell?

  Now, here's what's interesting. What also happened in 1973. In 1973, the DSM III, which is the sort of psychology guidebook to what's considered a disease, took homosexuality, which they called at the time, off of its disease list and sort of normalized it.

• 3:34Lewis Howes?

  When was this?

• 3:34Rob Bell?

  So 1973. So many people would simply say conservative religious people in seeing the larger culture move towards acceptance, translated the English translation of the Bible to this way, almost in response to that. I mean, that's a theory that many people have.

• 4:00Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think people care so deeply about certain things like, you know, same-sex marriage?

• 4:04Rob Bell?

  Yeah, great question.

• 4:05Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think they put so much? Why are they so afraid of evolving or growing into a new way of experiencing life? Or, you know, and everyone has an opinion of what's right and wrong or good and bad. Maybe it's good or bad or whatever. But it's just, why are people so afraid of it, you think? Or?

• 4:19Rob Bell?

  I think some-

• 4:21Lewis Howes?

  Of the evolution of life?

• 4:21Rob Bell?

  In my observation as a pastor over the years-

• 4:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:24Rob Bell?

  Is-

• 4:27Rob Bell?

  You were handed

• 4:30Rob Bell?

  a way of navigating the world. This is right, this is wrong, this is good, this is bad. And healthy human growth and development, hopefully your parents and your culture and your tribe and teachers and authority figures did instill you in you a moral compass, a sense of right and wrong. It's absolutely necessary for proper human growth and development. Even the idea of postponed gratification or impulse control, you can't have everything you want right now, is a really, really important thing to learn in order to navigate the world. Yeah. And think of how many addictions, how many compulsions come out of an inability to control impulses.

• 5:14Rob Bell?

  So this is absolutely necessary, healthy human growth and development. The problem for many people is the same system, people and authority figures, sometimes even dear, loving parents, that handed me it's good to save money, it's good to go to college, it's good to work hard, also handed you some other things. And later, when some of these other things don't work like they used to, if you challenge those, subvert those, stop obeying those or living by those, it can be, well, what else was I given? You know what I mean?

• 5:58Rob Bell?

  That isn't working, that was wrong, or that was... Right, the same person who told me this also told me this.

• 6:08Rob Bell?

  What else isn't true? What else did they tell me? And oftentimes, there's a bunch of good in there. Yeah. And they mean well. That's also mixed in. Their intuition, their... Exactly. So the number of women I have met...

• 6:26Rob Bell?

  Who were taught you matter, you're valuable, you're a child, you're a, you're a child of God. We're also told you can't be a spiritual leader. Um, you can't, a bunch of things, you just can't, you can't be president in this culture. You'll never be that thing that you want to be because this culture isn't ready for it. And you'll never be, because that's just not how it works. And so she grows up and she's like, but I want to be the president of a college.

• 6:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Rob Bell?

  Um, I want to be a priest. Um, I want to be a groundbreaking scientist. And for her to say that thing that I was told is wrong. And I'm going to disregard it and I'm going to go after my dreams. You have to move to a place of extraordinary maturity to be able to, uh, what theorists call transcend and include. I was handed a bunch of stuff that high school teacher who told me you can never be a CEO.

• 7:23Lewis Howes?

  Or Sunday school teacher or.

• 7:25Rob Bell?

  Also taught me how to work hard.

• 7:26Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 7:27Rob Bell?

  So I'm going to keep the work hard part.

• 7:30Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 7:30Rob Bell?

  But I'm gonna leave behind the list of things I'm not going to be able to do. And you can see how many people just get bitter. Um, and the work of distinguishing. You know what I mean? And working through, um, I'm gonna be grateful for this thing they gave me. And this thing they gave me isn't too helpful, so I'm going to discard it.

• 7:53Lewis Howes?

  Do you have anything like that in your life? Where you like grew up learning certain lessons or principles, but then you realize, oh, actually that principle doesn't work for me. Or that's actually not what's working in the world right now.

• 8:05Rob Bell?

  That's a great question. Yeah.

• 8:07Lewis Howes?

  I grew up believing that I was, uh, supposed to preach a certain way, but actually I, I evolved and realized that what I was saying wasn't effective or isn't actually the truth anymore.

• 8:19Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah. I, um, well, here's an example. I was trained in a setting.

• 8:26Rob Bell?

  That very much emphasized you believe in Jesus so that when you die, you go to heaven somewhere.

• 8:35Lewis Howes?

  That's where you grew up believing.

• 8:36Rob Bell?

  Very much, very much. That was sort of the dominant story.

• 8:40Lewis Howes?

  When you believe in Jesus, you got, you'll die and you go to heaven.

• 8:42Rob Bell?

  There's an afterlife and people go one of two places.

• 8:45Lewis Howes?

  Heaven or hell.

• 8:46Rob Bell?

  And you better believe, say, pray the right stuff so that when you die, you can go to the right place.

• 8:54Lewis Howes?

  So that's what you grew up believing.

• 8:57Rob Bell?

  That was the story.

• 8:58Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 8:59Rob Bell?

  And I don't, I don't know how much at a young age, you're like, oh yeah, that's definitely how it goes. Or are you just like, um, it's a new Star Wars movie coming out. You know what I mean? You're, you're really, but, um, when in my early twenties, I began, I was introduced. Wait, wait, wait, wait. It's about now. Um, the story is not about getting into someplace when you die. It's about, it's about life before death. It's not about getting into heaven. It's about bringing heaven here.

• 9:33Lewis Howes?

  Heaven on earth.

• 9:34Rob Bell?

  Yeah. It's about living in this world in a particular way. And you begin to live like that, you'll be fine when you die.

• 9:44Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 9:44Rob Bell?

  And that that's actually Jesus' message and that when he used the phrase eternal life, he was talking about a particular kind of life right now, like this conversation we're having.

• 9:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:54Rob Bell?

  And the joy of talking about the big questions of life. And we don't want to be anywhere else but right here, right now.

• 10:02Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 10:03Rob Bell?

  That's living and the food that we, the meal we just had.

• 10:05Lewis Howes?

  It was amazing. Rob just made us an incredible vegan meal from Rich Roll's book. It was unbelievable.

• 10:10Rob Bell?

  So that's living.

• 10:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Rob Bell?

  And you and I and your listeners, what are we here to do? What have I been given? How can I spread? That around.

• 10:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Rob Bell?

  Um, how can I share what I've been blessed with with those who need it?

• 10:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:25Rob Bell?

  That's just a whole different discussion.

• 10:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:27Rob Bell?

  And there's no fear in that discussion. There's no worry or stress, am I gonna get it's? It's, it's a life lived in love and joy and you're, you're hooking up with something. You're in the flow of something, you're hearing a song that's been playing for a number of years and you're moving to it, you're dancing to it.

• 10:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:48Rob Bell?

  Um, you even have to shift into metaphors at that point because literal language will fail you.

• 10:52Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 10:52Rob Bell?

  And that was a huge, because when I was trained as a pastor, it was kind of like, okay, we gotta get everybody, whatever, converted, signed up, believing, and I gradually began to realize, wait, some of these people, whatever the official party line is, saved, converted, whatever, they're miserable.

• 11:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 11:13Rob Bell?

  Um, they're completely jacked up. There's gotta be some other thing we're doing here. Yeah, so I had a major, actually my entire.

• 11:23Lewis Howes?

  This was when you're going to, when you're going to school to be a priest, they were saying these things and you started.

• 11:27Rob Bell?

  Um, yeah, you just sort of pick it up. Sometimes it's very direct, here's the point of all this, and sometimes you just pick it up in the practice, what actually is said. And then I got into my first job as a pastor and then, um,

• 11:42Rob Bell?

  I just kept going and kept growing, like the Iraq war, we were spending $10 billion a month on a war that a lot of people like, what are, what are we doing exactly here?

• 11:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Rob Bell?

  And I was trained in a sort of world that was like, you talk about spiritual things, you talk about heaven and you talk about matters of the heart and it was like, wait, wait, wait. No, you talk about war and peace and guns and.

• 12:13Lewis Howes?

  What's happening?

• 12:13Rob Bell?

  Loving our neighbor, like if this message isn't about how we actually conduct ourselves in having integrity in business, um, not invading countries under shady conditions, um, this is all part of how, what spirituality is. It's what we do with this gift we've been given.

• 12:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 12:35Rob Bell?

  So for me, it just kept getting bigger, wider, more interesting. Um, and I think probably at first. Well, when you're trained as a Christian pastor, it's about, let's be Christian. But what kept happening as a pastor is I realized, wait, I'm talking about what it means to be human. This is about what it means to be human. And then all these people would come to hear me speak from all these different backgrounds. Afterwards, like you, I would hug people and talk to whoever wanted to talk. And the people who would come up to talk were like, every religion, every background.

• 13:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow, really?

• 13:07Rob Bell?

  People who were like, listen, I'm an atheist, but I come hear you every week because I love it. And I started like, wait, wait, wait. There is, there is a common humanity that we all share. And what we've done is invented all of these categories and labels. Liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist. Um, we just keep coming up with distinctions about distinctions. You know what I mean?

• 13:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:42Rob Bell?

  And in my work, I kept realizing, it was like I just kept going down another layer deeper. There is a common humanity we all share. We all want to know how to worry less. We all want more courage to do what we know is the right thing. We all want to pass on to the next generation a better world. We all have this inner voice that keeps whispering to us, this is why you're here. Whether you're a yoga instructor, or a school teacher, or a mom, or a entrepreneur, like,

• 14:17Rob Bell?

  you have these moments when you're doing something and something within you says, this is why you're here. This is your jam.

• 14:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Rob Bell?

  This is your thing. And then we have, uh, my wife calls it the social self. You have all these voices around you yelling at you about, about who you are and what you're supposed to be doing here. And that you have your true self, your North Star, your inner, they call it the Christ wisdom, that just keeps speaking to you about who you truly are. And sometimes it takes incredible courage to do the thing that you know is who you really are. Cause you've got all these people, you got family members and neighbors and the kid, the people you went to college with who are like, who do you think you are to try that?

• 14:57Lewis Howes?

  So what happens when everyone's against

• 14:58Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Lewis Howes?

  your inner truth of what you feel like you should be doing.

• 15:02Rob Bell?

  Right.

• 15:02Lewis Howes?

  And everyone else is like, no, that's wrong, that's evil.

• 15:04Rob Bell?

  Right, right.

• 15:05Lewis Howes?

  It's bad, you're, you're horrible.

• 15:07Rob Bell?

  I actually think now. To pursue your true self. If there will always bring some form of conflict.

• 15:18Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:18Rob Bell?

  There almost always will be something.

• 15:24Rob Bell?

  Aligned against you, whether it's even just a voice in your head of something somebody said to you 11 years ago about you. That's not a legitimate career. And you're like. But it is a great life. It's amazing how many people I've met. They were told something about the thing that they know they're here to do years ago. Something negative. And it's still like a tape playing on repeat. In the, in your head.

• 15:50Lewis Howes?

  And they haven't taken the leap or the step to go forward yet.

• 15:52Rob Bell?

  And, and my experience, there's always. Some. Step. There are these moments. When you just step forward. And, and. I always say you have enough color and shape and texture. Or there's enough light to know what direction to leap into. But if you. But if you had too much detail. And guarantee, then it wouldn't be interesting. Then it wouldn't be faith, it wouldn't be a risk, then everybody would do it. And everybody would be. Kick, you know, hitting it out of the park and everybody's not hitting out of the park.

• 16:31Lewis Howes?

  If we could read our future 10 years, if we took a step in this and we could see 10 years down the line about what would happen. Wouldn't be as interesting.

• 16:37Rob Bell?

  And there's so many people. You can't believe how many people I meet with. Who. They have some next step. And it's so clear. And they're like, I don't know, I just. And you meet with them five years later and they haven't taken their step and they're wondering. And sometimes it's as simple as like. Like you need to take that class. And you know, you need to take, they'll even tell you. But I feel like I should just take that class and see. Whatever it is, real estate license class.

• 17:07Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 17:08Rob Bell?

  And they'll be like, yeah, still, I just haven't gotten around to it. And it's like. Then don't come back and say you feel stalled. Cause five years ago, you and I had lunch and you were like, I just have this sense like maybe I'm.

• 17:18Lewis Howes?

  What if a, what if there's.

• 17:19Rob Bell?

  That's how it works.

• 17:19Lewis Howes?

  You know, talking about marriage, what if there's a situation where there's a marriage that's holding someone's back?

• 17:25Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 17:26Lewis Howes?

  And they're like, I don't feel like I can. You know, get a divorce because that goes against all of my beliefs that I've been taught. And it's wrong and it's evil and I'm not supposed to do, I'm supposed to make it work and figure it out. But it's holding you back.

• 17:39Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Lewis Howes?

  What are your thoughts on that?

• 17:42Rob Bell?

  Some marriages are dead. And it's all law and no spirit. We have a ring. We have a marriage certificate somewhere. But the truth is.

• 17:58Rob Bell?

  It probably died seven years ago.

• 17:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:01Rob Bell?

  And it's admirable and it's.

• 18:06Rob Bell?

  You know, it's noble to just stay in it. That, I mean, a lot of people, that, that can be a very.

• 18:11Lewis Howes?

  That's what happens.

• 18:11Rob Bell?

  But sometimes it's dead. And I generally avoid any large broad stroke because every single marriage I've ever dealt with was different.

• 18:23Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 18:24Rob Bell?

  Um, but I have dealt with a lot of people.

• 18:26Lewis Howes?

  Married a lot of people, right?

• 18:27Rob Bell?

  Oh, my word. I've done weddings and prisons on snowboards. I did a wedding where the best man was his dog. I've done weddings on boats.

• 18:36Lewis Howes?

  How many weddings have you done?

• 18:38Rob Bell?

  Oh, hundreds.

• 18:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:40Rob Bell?

  I did a wedding. I did a wedding and the dude wrote a song for his bride. So at one point in the wedding ceremony, like in the notes, it was like so and so sings. So he's holding hands with her. He lets go of her hands. He walks over, picks up an acoustic guitar. He goes to the mic. And starts playing the song. First off, one of the worst guitar players I've ever heard.

• 19:06Rob Bell?

  You know, all the best, but one of the worst guitar players I've ever heard. Starts playing. Starts singing, but doesn't know the words.

• 19:14Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 19:15Rob Bell?

  So he's just mum, it's like, I just wanna, I just wanna. Okay. And then here, she had a, one of those names that's like a two-word first name. We're gonna go, well, let's say Bobby Joe. Okay, Mary Ann. But the chorus was her name repeated. So he starts playing. Then I was like, I just wanna be, I just wanna hold you. I should, I'm Mary Ann, I'm Mary Ann, I'm Mary Ann. Second verse, cuz I just, you're just a special, you just, I wanna, I just, I'm Mary Ann, I'm Mary Ann. He finishes the song, I use that term loosely. And he puts the guitar down and he walks back over, stands in front of her, grabs her hands and they're facing each other for the vows.

• 20:00Rob Bell?

  And no, the audience, no reaction from the audience. It's the, it's the closest I've ever been in a wedding to just wanting to be like, hold on a second.

• 20:09Lewis Howes?

  Did anyone just realize what happened here?

• 20:11Rob Bell?

  What are you, like, it's the closest I've ever been to just saying to the bride, are you sure? Are you sure? Cuz that was.

• 20:22Lewis Howes?

  This is the one.

• 20:24Rob Bell?

  Or maybe you're even more in love than ever, I don't know.

• 20:26Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 20:26Rob Bell?

  Um.

• 20:27Lewis Howes?

  But going back to you saying.

• 20:28Rob Bell?

  So I always just begin.

• 20:29Lewis Howes?

  Bro, you don't wanna have a.

• 20:30Rob Bell?

  Some, some are dead and they've been dead for a while. And.

• 20:36Lewis Howes?

  You're saying it was.

• 20:36Rob Bell?

  Probably some honesty, you have to just start with some honesty. Um, and often what happens is the really beautiful impulse to stay in it, to honor it, to cherish it, to respect this sacred bond, which are, which I'm a hundred percent for, can mask the fact that this union was dead a long time ago. And sometimes one person has checked out and has no interest. Uh, and I've seen people part ways and it's awful.

• 21:15Rob Bell?

  And yet in some way, I can't tell you the number of people who I've seen them part ways and then find somebody else. And it's like their lives just go to a whole new level.

• 21:28Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:28Rob Bell?

  So I always begin with that, partly because for many people, it's they haven't heard that perspective. What they've only ever heard is you stay in it no matter what.

• 21:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:38Rob Bell?

  Um.

• 21:39Lewis Howes?

  You make it work, you grow.

• 21:40Rob Bell?

  And I don't mean to trivialize, I don't say this to trivialize, I don't say, hey, whatever you're in, just you can, you know, here's a pass. But, and then secondly, and more importantly.

• 21:50Lewis Howes?

  Do you think it's okay to leave a marriage if for seven years it's been dead, you're both done everything you can?

• 21:54Rob Bell?

  I have seen things die a long time ago, and here's the thing, I believe in miracles, I've seen things resurrected.

• 22:01Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 22:02Rob Bell?

  There's no possible way, so that thing could have come back to life and it did.

• 22:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:08Rob Bell?

  And I've seen a ton of those.

• 22:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 22:10Rob Bell?

  So I begin with some are dead, then I move to, but the really interesting mystery is when things come back to life. And I've seen that happen.

• 22:19Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 22:19Rob Bell?

  Again and again and again, and I believe in that, I believe that people can completely throw themselves into, let's start over. But the problem is, if you don't begin with, okay, here's the deal, we both need to die to how it's been. So that this thing can be reborn.

• 22:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:35Rob Bell?

  Cause the way we've been doing, none of this is working. Um, but you need two parties, you need two people who are both like totally owning their side of the street.

• 22:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, taking responsibility.

• 22:49Rob Bell?

  And.

• 22:49Lewis Howes?

  Not blaming.

• 22:50Rob Bell?

  That is so beautiful.

• 22:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:53Rob Bell?

  And then the question becomes, is, and, and, and I speak out both sides of my mouth, sometimes there's so much pain, hurt. Uh, so many wounds that it will take a miracle. And there's no way they're gonna, they're so far apart, there's so much pain and wound.

• 23:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:16Rob Bell?

  And sometimes it's like, you know what, stop beating each other up, you're both just dying here.

• 23:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Rob Bell?

  And then I say at the exact same time, but I've seen those very situations turned around.

• 23:27Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 23:28Rob Bell?

  Time and time again, so.

• 23:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Rob Bell?

  Any clear answer there, it's important to just hold, these are all realities.

• 23:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:35Rob Bell?

  That are present in marriage.

• 23:38Lewis Howes?

  And is it better to, if something's dead for, you know, dead and then stays dead for 20 years, is it better to be a dead person but stay committed to the law of a marriage?

• 23:50Rob Bell?

  Or to Right.

• 23:51Lewis Howes?

  break it off and actually unleash your greatest joy in the world?

• 23:56Rob Bell?

  Right, right, right.

• 23:57Lewis Howes?

  Impact people in a positive way?

• 23:58Rob Bell?

  Right, right.

• 23:58Lewis Howes?

  And create a new relationship?

• 24:00Rob Bell?

  Right.

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  That sparks joy and inspiration in other people.

• 24:03Rob Bell?

  I, I begin with, if you're going to part ways, give it everything you have.

• 24:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:11Rob Bell?

  Because you for the rest of your life will regret it if the two of you didn't give it everything you have.

• 24:15Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 24:16Rob Bell?

  So even for what we're talking about now, that to me is above all else. Give it both of you everything you have. See, read every book, see every therapist, see every counselor.

• 24:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 24:27Rob Bell?

  Interview every couple that somehow managed to, to stay together and have a thriving relationship. Do everything you can. Um, so any easy, cheap, oh, good, I have a pass now. Completely to me violates this powerful, profound thing. Kristin and I met when we were 18. We were friends for four years. Nothing ever really happened until we were both ended up in LA. And we had like a best friend thing. We were friends for years. I thought she was like the greatest. I was like, if I ever grew up, that's the kind of woman.

• 24:57Lewis Howes?

  You would want to be with.

• 24:58Rob Bell?

  I mean, I always just was so in awe of her. I would like get all sort of choked up or like, I didn't really know what to say around her sometimes because I was just so kind of in awe of her. But we, we just were given this extraordinary gift of like, we saw our life together like as a, an adventure. And we're like 21 years in, having more fun than ever.

• 25:16Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 25:16Rob Bell?

  We seriously laughed so hard. Just today, we were just walking in the neighborhood.

• 25:22Rob Bell?

  We just have so, it's been unbelievable.

• 25:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:25Rob Bell?

  So

• 25:25Lewis Howes?

  You guys are great.

• 25:26Rob Bell?

  We're very aware that we're, we're really, really, really fortunate.

• 25:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. But not everyone has that. And how do they?

• 25:34Rob Bell?

  Exactly.

• 25:35Lewis Howes?

  How do they find that?

• 25:36Rob Bell?

  Exactly. And, um,

• 25:38Lewis Howes?

  It doesn't come until they're 30 or 40 or?

• 25:40Rob Bell?

  That's one, um, last year we had this book come out that we wrote on marriage called The Zimzam of Love.

• 25:44Lewis Howes?

  Great book.

• 25:44Rob Bell?

  We tried. To put everything in a book that was like, if someone said to us, how do I live? And look for somebody to share my life with? We tried to put all that in a book.

• 25:58Lewis Howes?

  That speaks my truth that I can understand, that can understand.

• 26:01Rob Bell?

  Yeah, and, and the really interesting thing we tried to do that was compelling to us was we tried to write a book. That was honest about how difficult marriage can be. And also really inspiring about what it can be.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:17Rob Bell?

  Cause nothing, if you're in a difficult relationship, if you're in a painful marriage and someone's like, it's so awesome. You're like, what do you have to say to me?

• 26:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:25Rob Bell?

  But also, when someone goes, no, this could be really great. Like, we need to hear that sort of thing. So how do you bring good news? That's also honest about how unbelievably painful this thing can be.

• 26:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:38Rob Bell?

  And that sort of was driving us in the book is, let's let everybody know who, who this institution of marriage has been incredibly heartbreaking. We get it. We understand. We hear you. Here are some thoughts about this whole thing.

• 26:51Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. It's a great book, by the way. I recommend everyone get it. We'll have it linked up as well.

• 26:54Rob Bell?

  That's very kind of you.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's amazing. When, when people are going through a downtime, stressful situation, struggle, adversity, whether internally or, you know, just around them. What do you think they should put their faith or belief in, in those moments? And when it seems like, man, months, years go by where it's like a struggle.

• 27:15Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Lewis Howes?

  What should they believe in? In those moments?

• 27:20Rob Bell?

  I begin.

• 27:21Lewis Howes?

  Or what should they do in general? Think and do?

• 27:24Rob Bell?

  I begin with returning to the assumption that there is power at work in the universe, bigger and beyond you. And that whatever this is.

• 27:38Rob Bell?

  It is temporary.

• 27:40Lewis Howes?

  Some point it'll pass.

• 27:41Rob Bell?

  And you have to begin with the moment I say, this is how it is, period. I am now firmly into despair and despair is a spiritual condition. Despair is when you fall and pray to the belief that tomorrow will simply be a repeat of today. That's despair. And that that is a spiritual disease. That's a spiritual condition that needs to be confronted. Oh, wait, this is despair. This is the lie that tomorrow will be a repeat of today. It's not true. So you have to begin with the assumptions that we generally go to is we take whatever this experience is.

• 28:24Rob Bell?

  And then we look into the future and all of those squares on the calendar of days. It's just an endless succession of this. But what we know is that we're in it and it will pass because all is temporal.

• 28:39Rob Bell?

  And then the second question is, which is why having some sort of spiritual tradition or practice is really helpful. I begin with the assumption that spirit is always up to something. That that there are forces or a force larger than me that is doing something in this. So keep your eyes open. Pay attention because something is unfolding here.

• 29:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:08Rob Bell?

  Some call it, the mystics call it the presence in the absence. In the absence of hope and bounty and abundance and joy. In that absence, there's a presence doing something. So think about how many people you meet who.

• 29:22Lewis Howes?

  The dark matter, you mean?

• 29:23Rob Bell?

  Yeah, you talk to them about how did your, tell me about key moments in your life or how did you get to where you are? They generally tell you stories about loss, heartache, pain. So.

• 29:34Lewis Howes?

  The lessons they learn.

• 29:35Rob Bell?

  The moments when we most want to check out are actually the moments to pay attention like never before.

• 29:44Rob Bell?

  Because things don't die without things being born. And that's the power of death and of the death and resurrection story. As a way of understanding your life is something's dying here. And things die and then new things are born. So I lost my job, that's a death and I'm gonna have to grieve it. And it's going to be painful. But that also means that some sort of new, I'm not gonna be working there. All right.

• 30:16Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 30:16Rob Bell?

  So that's gonna be painful and especially if you love that job. Or a relationship.

• 30:21Lewis Howes?

  Ends.

• 30:22Rob Bell?

  Yeah, or a fiance or a spouse cheats on you or some or somebody you you love dies, cancer, uh, car wreck, whatever it is. There's a very real grieving and a loss.

• 30:37Rob Bell?

  But if you are willing to go into the heart of that pain and suffering, you will not come out the other side, the same person.

• 30:43Lewis Howes?

  What's been the hardest point in your life, most challenging experience you've gone through? And the lesson you learned from that?

• 30:50Rob Bell?

  That I set out to help people.

• 30:55Rob Bell?

  And to bring people good news about who they are and what's possible for their life.

• 31:01Rob Bell?

  And in probably my early 30s, I started getting criticized.

• 31:09Rob Bell?

  I think the first time it really happened is I did a whole series of sermons about women's equality. Women should be free to be whoever they're here to be.

• 31:18Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:18Rob Bell?

  Because that's obvious. Um, and a and a whole group of very dogmatic religious folks in the church that I had started. Organized and tried to have me removed as the pastor of the church I started. And became very angry and mean and nasty. And

• 31:40Rob Bell?

  that was probably the first time.

• 31:43Rob Bell?

  I experienced serious

• 31:48Rob Bell?

  opposition and I experienced a particular kind of venom. Religious people spew a particular kind of venom when they believe they're defending the Almighty.

• 31:59Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that funny?

• 32:00Rob Bell?

  I mean, you can see it in politics right now. When people believe they need to take their country back. That's a particular kind of energy. You know what I mean? It's not always good. That's, that can be some really negative energy. And for me, and then I started when I would go and speak places, there'd be protesters out front. That became a regular part of my life. And then finding out that this person is doing a series of sermons against me and they have hundreds of thousands of followers because I don't believe that God sends billions of people to burn in hell forever. Simply because they haven't said a particular prayer or something. That's not good news. That's a horror story.

• 32:45Rob Bell?

  So I, I, for me-

• 32:47Lewis Howes?

  What do you learn about yourself in those last-

• 32:49Rob Bell?

  That we desperately want to be understood. We want to be liked. We want to be popular. We want everybody to get what we're doing. And you cannot control the outcomes. And you cannot control how people will respond to you and your work in the world. Lewis Howes cannot control how people will respond to Lewis Howes' voice and work in the world. So at some point, you have to find the joy in being Lewis Howes and doing the work you're here to do. The joy has to be there because if your joy is in how many books you're gonna sell-

• 33:26Lewis Howes?

  Pleasing people.

• 33:27Rob Bell?

  Exactly. If your joy isn't selling X amount of books, that may happen, it may not. It may happen on the next book, it may not. If your joy is in the outcome, and goals are lovely and plans are nice. But if your joy is in a particular response from people. You may get that, you may not.

• 33:47Rob Bell?

  And what you've done, if you place your joy in a particular outcome, is you have placed your joy in the future. And all you have is now. So the real joy is in doing what you're here to do today. And people may like you, they may not. They may protest you, they may not. They may do really, really well organized boycotts of you. They may not. They may, uh, what my book Love Wins, my editor told me 12 books have been written against my book Love Wins.

• 34:27Rob Bell?

  So you can go on Amazon, apparently, apparently you can go on and find 12 books people wrote against that book. So you might have numbers of people literally publishing books against your one book, which I think is hilarious.

• 34:40Lewis Howes?

  What do they say? Love loses?

• 34:43Rob Bell?

  Well, that's the thing about it is it's so awesome. Exactly, exactly.

• 34:48Lewis Howes?

  Hate wins.

• 34:48Rob Bell?

  Like literally people like, what is all this God is love talk? I know, what a crazy idea.

• 34:54Rob Bell?

  And I, that is my, my greatest, my greatest lesson has been learning, oh, wait, all the things that your ego wants to be loved and admired and respected and understood may not happen. And if that doesn't happen, and you keep going, and now you're dangerous. Now you're dangerous. Cause you're here and the worst that could happen, happened and we're doing fine. So let's do some stuff.

• 35:22Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 35:22Rob Bell?

  So I, I've never had more fun. I've never had more of a sense of wonder and awe that I get to do this. But that didn't come without some serious heat and fire and some sleepless nights, to say the least.

• 35:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What would you say, what would you say are the three to five values that you live your life by? Or do you have a set of values, principles that you, just like your creed?

• 35:47Rob Bell?

  Yeah, I begin with, there's more going on here. So when you talk about what you put your faith on, spirituality, God. Believing in Jesus, whatever you want to say, I just begin in every situation with there's more going on here. So whether it's suffering, loss, whether I'm just having a conversation with somebody that I've never met, there's more going on here.

• 36:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:09Rob Bell?

  So always assume that what I would just call spirit is at work. You have no idea what the, oh, I'm thinking, oh yeah, we're driving Christmas Day. We drove from LA over to Phoenix and we stopped to get gas. And I'm walking out of the gas station and it hits me, wait, that woman is working on Christmas Day. So I stop and talk to her because I could get gas and get my family across the desert because this woman is working on Christmas Day. So I just stopped and thanked her, just chatted with her for a minute. Because something about the moment was like, just give that woman some love and respect.

• 36:50Rob Bell?

  Because she's working in a gas station. So you didn't even think about it. You didn't think, I hope somebody's working on Christmas Day. You just live with this assumption, yeah, I'll be able to get gas. Well, somebody had to like be away from family to work in a gas station on Christmas. Um, so I begin with, there's always more going on here. And then number two, integrity. Uh, live your life so that all could be made known. And you wouldn't have anything you were embarrassed about. So especially when I was young and I started, I realized that my work had this public dimension to it. And that I was actually in public talking about spiritual things. Who am I to do this?

• 37:35Rob Bell?

  You know what I mean? You can never answer that question. But you can live with integrity

• 37:43Rob Bell?

  in all areas of your life, ruthless integrity. So if anything smells of any dishonest, unfair, exploitive, I'm, no, uh-uh, not interested. No way. I can't. Um, and that's not because I'm scared of some weird outdated morality. It's because.

• 38:06Rob Bell?

  That's the only way I can do what I do is to live like with just ruthless integrity.

• 38:15Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like you always live with ruthless integrity?

• 38:18Rob Bell?

  That is a value and the ability to go, oh, I cut a corner there. I shouldn't have done that. Well, how do I need, how do I make amends? I, I, I need to call that person and just say to them, I've literally gone over to people's houses, knocked on the door and said, I just came by to say I'm so sorry for what I said the other day. I didn't mean that. I hope you didn't take it the wrong way, but I got in my car and drove to their place because somehow that for me was how you make, you do everything you can to make it right.

• 38:47Lewis Howes?

  You felt out of integrity in that moment.

• 38:49Rob Bell?

  Yeah, just sometimes you just have this call them and apologize.

• 38:55Rob Bell?

  In case they took that the wrong way.

• 38:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:58Rob Bell?

  Just call them. Don't live wondering. What if?

• 39:02Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 39:02Rob Bell?

  Um, and then.

• 39:04Lewis Howes?

  Those two.

• 39:06Rob Bell?

  Oh yeah. Number three.

• 39:09Lewis Howes?

  I don't know if you have more or not.

• 39:09Rob Bell?

  You begin, you find the divine in the everyday. You find the divine in the valley, not the mountain. So for Kristen and I and making lunches for the kids in the morning and well, you're there tonight making a smoothie, like watching football with my other son. If it doesn't work for you and your family or friends or whatever in an everyday, like the, the warp and woof of your everyday life. It has to work there before you have anything to say or give beyond the walls of this house.

• 39:51Rob Bell?

  So if I have anything in my writings or podcast or my tours or anything to say to the world. That's not the mountain with a microphone on a stage in front of lots of people.

• 40:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Rob Bell?

  The mountain, the peak experience is putting my daughter to bed just now.

• 40:10Rob Bell?

  You have to find it. Like you were saying, the past couple of days, you were getting all this work done.

• 40:18Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I was in the zone.

• 40:19Rob Bell?

  You love, and what you were telling Kristen and I, you were all alone in your apartment, just getting stuff done and loving it. So the public Lewis Howes and the joy that you give people through your podcast and books and tours and work and all that, that starts with you all alone doing the work.

• 40:37Lewis Howes?

  Good stuff, Doug, yeah.

• 40:38Rob Bell?

  And, and that's a lot of people like, how do you have a, how do you have a voice? How do you have a big, whatever? You know what I mean?

• 40:46Rob Bell?

  Start with you on an average Tuesday in October.

• 40:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:51Rob Bell?

  At nine AM at your desk or going to a meeting, whatever. It starts there.

• 40:58Lewis Howes?

  Not the speaking gig once every six months.

• 41:01Rob Bell?

  That's the frosting, not the cake.

• 41:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:05Rob Bell?

  It, it starts with your everyday disciplines and routines that ground you and center you. Uh, and that's to me, like this desk right here, every morning, I sit down there after the kids go to school and I work on whatever the next thing is. And I have moments at that desk. I've had that desk since 2000. I've had moments where I'm literally sitting there with tears in my eyes because I've stumbled into something like, oh, oh, that's good. And I, and whatever it is I stumbled into, I'm realizing how it's affecting me, how it's changing me, how it's helping me see. And then it's, okay, how can I put language on that to share with people?

• 41:47Rob Bell?

  How could I tell that story in a way that people could see what I've seen? But it starts with my own deep, personal experience of the world.

• 41:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:56Rob Bell?

  And those own moments. And that's, that's where it starts. It doesn't start on some.

• 42:03Rob Bell?

  I'm gonna take, you know what I mean? It starts there.

• 42:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Would you say those are the three core values? Or do you have more?

• 42:11Rob Bell?

  I could go all day on this stuff.

• 42:13Lewis Howes?

  That's a good start.

• 42:14Rob Bell?

  Yeah, there we go. That's a good start.

• 42:16Lewis Howes?

  That's a good start. I like it. So you said there's more going on here. Integrity, live your life so that it all could be made known and you wouldn't be embarrassed by it.

• 42:24Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 42:25Lewis Howes?

  And find the divine in the valley, not the mountain.

• 42:29Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah, that's good.

• 42:31Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 42:32Rob Bell?

  That's good. There's more going on here, especially if you have a boring job. And I've talked to lots of people about this. You have a job where you're like, yeah, but you don't understand what I do all day. It's actually more powerful in jobs that appear to be more mundane and sort of even boring. Is walk into that call center for another day of work. And even write it out on a card, on a card, there's more going on here. So an example would be you have a break and your coworker who totally annoys you, Bruce, Carol, you know? It's like, ah, I had an awful weekend.

• 43:10Rob Bell?

  And everything within you is like, Carol, Bruce, I am so, everything within you is like, the last thing on earth I want to hear about is your awful weekend. But in that moment, you go, there's more going on here and you say, Bruce, why was your, tell me about why your weekend was awful? You have no idea in that moment when you choose to, when you move from indifference to a question.

• 43:38Rob Bell?

  What might be just because that person said my weekend is awful. Translation, could somebody please ask me how my weekend was so I could get this thing off my chest that I'm carrying around?

• 43:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Rob Bell?

  You have no idea what extraordinary sacred

• 43:57Rob Bell?

  encounter can come from a question like that. And all of a sudden, you see Bruce, not as the most annoying coworker ever, human sandpaper, but Bruce is a human being struggling like all the rest of us.

• 44:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 44:09Rob Bell?

  And often we're one.

• 44:13Rob Bell?

  Question, comment, you lean in instead of away, you know what I mean? From something really interesting.

• 44:19Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 44:21Rob Bell?

  We're just that close and yet we're like, oh, please, and we walk away. That's how it works.

• 44:26Lewis Howes?

  Amazing. Well, this has been incredible.

• 44:29Rob Bell?

  Did we cover some good?

• 44:30Lewis Howes?

  We covered some great stuff. Um, I'm going to finish with your definition of greatness, which I'm going to record on Snapchat here in a second.

• 44:40Lewis Howes?

  But I want to acknowledge you, Rob. I appreciate it. The last time we came on, I acknowledged you for all the gifts that you bring to the world.

• 44:45Rob Bell?

  Oh, that's so kind of you.

• 44:46Lewis Howes?

  And I want to acknowledge you for coming back on and diving in even deeper with me. I think originally I had an idea of where I wanted this to go, and then it just kind of went in so many amazing directions that I was so grateful that you shared your wisdom on this. And this is just one man's point of view, everyone listening.

• 45:04Rob Bell?

  You got that right.

• 45:04Lewis Howes?

  It's not, you know, the Bible.

• 45:06Rob Bell?

  Correct.

• 45:07Lewis Howes?

  It is an opinion and a point of view.

• 45:08Rob Bell?

  Absolutely.

• 45:09Lewis Howes?

  For me, I feel like, again, you're like a great spiritual guide for me. You're a great spiritual compass. For me to just continue to be curious and ask questions.

• 45:20Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 45:20Lewis Howes?

  And I'm always asking questions about what's true, what's not true, what's possible, what's not possible. And so I just like to be reminded of stories, lessons, examples of how we can live our best, truest lives. And you continue to provide that for so many people like you did today on this podcast. So thank you for all that you continue to do.

• 45:43Rob Bell?

  I loved it.

• 45:43Lewis Howes?

  That you continue to.

• 45:44Rob Bell?

  I love talking to you.

• 45:45Lewis Howes?

  I know, it's great. And I highly recommend everyone go download and subscribe to the Robcast. You can check it on iTunes. You can go to robbell.com. Check it out. Um, I'll have a bunch of links up here afterwards on the show notes about how you can get his books, the ones I like and recommend. But make sure to subscribe to the podcast. It's one of the very few that I actually listen to. Um, of the 400,000 podcasts out there on iTunes, Rob's is one of the top. And, um, he's doing a lot of touring this year, a lot of great events. So make sure to subscribe to his newsletter. You get a free book that he just came out with if you subscribe to his newsletter. I believe you still get that book for free.

• 46:24Rob Bell?

  It's on my website.

• 46:25Lewis Howes?

  It's on my website.

• 46:25Rob Bell?

  It's a novel.

• 46:26Lewis Howes?

  They can just get it.

• 46:27Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Lewis Howes?

  And get on his newsletter because he's always doing events around the country and you want to see him live. I'm telling you, it's going to blow your mind. I saw him live this last summer and it was, his talk was so powerful and it doesn't matter what religion or belief you have, you're going to find some wisdom and knowledge that's going to support your life. So, Rob, final question is what's your definition of greatness?

• 46:53Rob Bell?

  Oh, greatness is when you leave the room and people have more hope than when you entered the room.

• 47:03Lewis Howes?

  I think that's the same answer you gave last time.

• 47:05Rob Bell?

  Is it really?

• 47:05Lewis Howes?

  I think so. I love it, man.

• 47:08Rob Bell?

  Let's keep it real simple.

• 47:09Lewis Howes?

  I love it, man. Rob Bell, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it.

• 47:12Rob Bell?

  I loved it. My pleasure.

• 47:16Lewis Howes?

  And there you have it, guys. I hope you enjoyed part two. Again, if you haven't subscribed to Rob Bell's stuff, make sure to head over to robbell.com and check out the show notes, lewishouse.com/276. Make sure to send both of these episodes to your friends. Share it over on Facebook and Twitter and Google Plus and Instagram and all that good stuff, Snapchat. I'm hanging out more on Snapchat these days, so make sure to follow me there to see my daily stories and tips and inspiration. Again, lewishouse.com/276 for this episode. If this is your first episode you came to, then go back to 275 and listen to both of them together. I love you, guys. I thank you so much. We've got some big guests coming up, so make sure to subscribe to the School of Greatness

• 48:00Lewis Howes?

  Podcast over on iTunes, Stitcher, and SoundCloud. And you guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.