231 How to Consciously End a Relationship in a Healthy Way with Katherine Woodward Thomas

"We're hardwired to bond with other people." - Katherine Woodward Thomas If you enjoyed this episode, check out show notes, video and more at http://lewishowes.com/231 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 231 with bestselling author Katherine Woodward-Thomas.

• 0:08Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:34Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone to this episode, a very special episode with a new friend of mine. Her name is Katherine Woodward-Thomas. And for those that don't know who she is, she's a life coach and licensed psychotherapist, one of three founding faculty of Evolving Wisdom, which was recently named by Inc. Magazine as the fastest growing online transformation educational company in America. Katherine has had the privilege of co-leading virtual learning communities that includes hundreds of thousands of students from all over the globe. She also wrote a bestselling book called Calling in the One: Seven Weeks to Attract the Love of Your Life, which became a bestseller within four months of publication and has since gone on to sell over 200,000 copies.

• 1:17Lewis Howes?

  She also has a new book coming out right now that's called Conscious Uncoupling, which is the topic of this interview right now, all about, you know, we talk about how to call in the right one for your relationship. But what happens when the right one doesn't become the right one anymore? Or you realize it's not a good fit, or you guys grow apart and you realize that you can't be together anymore? How do you consciously uncouple? You know, it seems like most people go through really bad breakups. You never really hear of, oh, it was a great breakup. And Katherine talks about how to do it in a loving, conscious way. And we discussed this throughout this entire interview. I think you're really gonna like this.

• 2:01Lewis Howes?

  And if you have friends that are going through a breakup or that are thinking about it, that have been consoling in you with advice, make sure to send this to them over at lewishowes.com/231 so they can learn more about how to do this in a healthy, loving way. Very excited about this interview, so make sure to check it out and share it with your friends. Without further ado, let's go in and dive into this episode with the lovely, the graceful, the talented Catherine Woodward Thomas.

• 2:35Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness Podcast. Very excited about our guest today. Her name is Catherine Woodward Thomas. She's got a book called Conscious Uncoupling, and it's the five steps to living happily even after, which is a tricky little interesting subtitle you got there, which I'm really excited about diving into. And first off, thank you for being here.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you for asking me. It's such an honor.

• 2:58Lewis Howes?

  It means a lot to me. This is probably a different topic than I cover most of the time, but for me, something that, you know, I've been in multiple relationships, and when I get in a relationship, I'm in a relationship. I'm like, I love deep. And so when things shift and they're not working, or I realize that I need time away, or it's something happens and it's, I know it's not going to be a good fit for the time being, it's a challenge. And I'm never, no one ever teaches you how to get out of a relationship in a healthy, loving.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  It's astounding how few of us know how to do this.

• 3:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're the only one I know who knows how to do it.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  I have seen the most high level, advanced spiritual people make a total mess of, you know, the end of a relationship.

• 3:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. We just don't know how to navigate it. And I have a theory about it. I think that inside of our happily ever after myth, which kind of assumes that if the relationship ends before one or both people die, that it was a complete disaster and a complete failure of love. And so inside of that, we just never really like figured out, well, how can we bring conscious completion to our intimate relationships, or to really any relationships for that matter?

• 4:20Lewis Howes?

  I mean, why do people, and just so people listening know, you're a marriage family therapist, right? You've been doing this for 20, 30 years, and you've been teaching hundreds of thousands of people all around the world about, you know, relationship advice and all this good stuff. So you've got some great wisdom as a licensed therapist, but also with your own experiences. So I think that's where we learn the most from our own experiences, because you're divorced as well.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:45Lewis Howes?

  And you had to figure this out for yourself also.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Well, and you know, let me just say, I'm also the author of Calling in the One.

• 4:53Lewis Howes?

  The One, yes.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Right, which came out in 2004 and we just sold hundreds of thousands of copies.

• 4:58Lewis Howes?

  So you called in the one and then the one-

• 4:59Speaker 01

  So I called in the one and then after a decade, we decided to un-married.

• 5:04Lewis Howes?

  So it wasn't the one anymore?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Well, he was though for that time.

• 5:08Lewis Howes?

  For that time, okay.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  For that time. And this goes back to the happily ever after myth. Because you know, when I, when we decided to end our union, I mean, it wasn't, you know, an easy thing to do. And when it, when we made the decision, you know, my prayer was like a little less than pious. It was, you know, are you effing kidding me, God? Like seriously?

• 5:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  I've like got all these people who look to me for the answers.

• 5:33Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  And how to find love and they really like open up to possibility in their lives after all sorts of things. And they learn the Calling in the One technique and process, which has, you know, worked for many, many thousands of people. But then I'm gonna get divorced. So what's that message? And how do I even convey that message? So I know you talk, you love to talk in School of Greatness about failure a lot. So that was like a great crash and burn.

• 5:57Lewis Howes?

  Sure, yeah, yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  In that moment, it could have really been a disaster.

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  And you were the woman that was like, I'm Calling in the One, I'm teaching you all how to do it. And now I'm essentially failed at Calling in the One.

• 6:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and so you know what? I, I know enough to look at my own feelings and whatever's going on for me. And to see it as reflective of what's going on for all of us. So I have kind of an, you know, I have a deeply personal relationship, obviously with my feelings as we all do. But I also have an impersonal relationship with them because I'm really interested in the evolution of love in the world. You know, both for myself and our, but our collective capacity.

• 6:33Lewis Howes?

  Conscious love, yes.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, conscious love, conscious relationships. So as, and I'm committed to that. So as I'm going through this, I'm going, wow, you know, this is really common. That when we go through the end of a relationship, we feel ashamed. Where does that come from?

• 6:47Lewis Howes?

  Why do we feel ashamed?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Like, why do we feel ashamed? Like, why do we go to, oh, now I'm inferior to be single again? Or, you know, I was better when I was, like, what, where is that coming from? So I actually started to research that happily ever after myth. And I found out a lot of things about it that were really fascinating to me. One is that it's only about 400 years old. Believe it or not, it was created in Venice, Italy.

• 7:08Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Which, you know, us Romans, we were not surprised.

• 7:11Lewis Howes?

  That's funny.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  But it was created during a time when the lifespan was under 40.

• 7:15Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  When half the children were dying before the age of 16.

• 7:19Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, really?

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Which, you know, is probably a good idea, a better idea to keep families together, to give them the best possible chance at survival. And also, there was a law at the time that these fairy tales were created, that a noble person could not marry a commoner. And so people, if you were born into poverty, you were gonna die into poverty. Like, there was no hope of ever getting out of poverty. So the happily ever after myth was, was, came as like an escapist fairy tale for people, because it was right after the Renaissance, so people actually were literate. Even though they had no money, they were literate. And they loved the fairy tales, in large part because of the upward mobility.

• 8:01Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm, okay.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  You know, it was like the, and, and also it happened in a faraway distant land. You know, because it couldn't happen in Venice, because there was a law against it. So, you know, it's kind of, but then it went to France and it kind of stuck, and it almost like took over our world about what our aspiration for love should be. And we're also kind of collectively in that trance that it actually occurs to us as a failure, if we do not, but, look, this is the reality. If you like, look at the statistics, the statistics are that the majority of us are gonna have two to three major relationships in our lifetime, which also implies at least one or two major breakups as well.

• 8:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  So it's no longer the norm to meet and marry one person.

• 8:44Lewis Howes?

  The one, like 21, when you're in college and then you're with them for the rest of your life.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Very unusual. I mean, it happens.

• 8:50Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  You know, so, so I think, you know, like, we, we update our computer programs and our child rearing practices and our diets and our exercise programs. I think we have to update our aspirations around love. And we need to shift from the question of, you know, how we're gonna value the union according to how long did it last? And start to ask the question, what did I learn? And how have I expanded my capacity to love moving forward?

• 9:15Lewis Howes?

  So challenging. When you're, you're in the relationship and you love someone so much.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:21Lewis Howes?

  And they bring so much value to your life and they're so incredible. But something's not working, or you can't give them what they want, or they can't give you what you really want.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:30Lewis Howes?

  And there's like this conflict where you can't figure it out. And you've got to end it, or you've got to evolve it, I guess. And, you know, how do we, first off, before we even go into that, because you've got five steps to doing that.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 9:44Lewis Howes?

  How do you call on the one? I mean, how do you know it's the one if you're gonna end it at some point? Like, that's the confusing thing.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Well, I think, see, this is important for us to realize that we live in a very mobile society that values growth and evolution.

• 10:01Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Right? And in a way, America's kind of torn between these two ideals of the stability of family and commitment and devotion. And most of us really believe in that. Ninety percent of us are gonna get married at some point in our lifetimes. But we also are a country that was kind of founded upon the ideal of the pursuit of happiness. And we are a creative bunch, and we love change, and we love evolution, and we love, you know, personal growth and development. And those two things are not always the best bedfellows. So in a, you know, perfect world, we all grow together. But different people have different callings, and different people have different aspirations to how much they're willing to grow.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  And what that, how they're gonna navigate the tension between just wanting to be, you know, comfortable in life and kind of set in life, or how much you're gonna be risk oriented and keep, you know, striving to become your best self. And I think, you know, I think here in the school of greatness, I can pretty much assume that most of us are the latter.

• 11:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  And so it is going to create a lack of stability. It's gonna do two things. It's going to create, you know, it's gonna create a lack of stability that we are gonna, and it's also gonna inspire us to grow. Right, because we don't want to lose each other. We want to learn how to stay related. In a way, conscious uncoupling is about that. Because I don't-

• 11:26Lewis Howes?

  It's not about losing each other?

• 11:27Speaker 01

  No, it's, well, I mean, look, if you have a, you know, crash and burn relationship, somebody's got a personality disorder, they're like an addict, they're like unethical with you, they're toxic, you're gonna have to-

• 11:39Lewis Howes?

  You need to cut it off.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  You need to set that boundary, you're not gonna be able to do that. But then, you know, in many relationships, you can transition, certainly if you have children, or if you're business partners, we wanted to kind of wrap in business too, because I think, you know, I've had two business breakups in my lifetime that were almost as heart wrenching as my divorce.

• 11:56Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Right, they can be very, very difficult to navigate. So any kind of, so you really don't want to lose people entirely. You want to do things like, one of the things I have people do is to become very conscious of the agreements that you've had as a couple.

• 12:10Lewis Howes?

  As you had as a couple.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  As a couple, like, you will always prioritize me. You will always rescue me when I'm in trouble, that kind of thing. You'll, you know, or you will always love me the most. Um, I will always love you the most, I will sexual fidelity, that kind of thing. You know, we are people of our word. There was one woman that I worked with who had been divorced 10 years earlier, hadn't seen her husband in eight years. He was already married to somebody else. She hadn't talked to him in eight years. She had never been on a date. And when we worked together, it was because she was still, like, she was Catholic, so she was still kind of covertly keeping her vow of fidelity to him. So we have these agreements with each other. And then we have to update the agreements and become conscious. Like, who are you gonna be to me now? What are my expectations of you? What are your expectations of me?

• 12:55Speaker 01

  And when you start, so that's how you kind of evolve a relationship to a new, healthy form. But I think you asked me how to call in the one.

• 13:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, there's so much I want to learn.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  There's a lot that I have to say, I'm sorry.

• 13:06Lewis Howes?

  The challenge is, you know, the challenge is, how do you call in the one? And then how do you know it is the one? And how do you- And then how do you deal with coping with when it's not the one right now, or it's not the right time, or it's not working, that it's not the one anymore for right now?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, so they're different questions. So I think how to call in the one is about being very intentional and being more future oriented than past oriented. So a lot of us have, you know, certain things in our histories and our childhoods, we have certain, you know, dynamics that were happening in our families, and so we have insecurities, that we have beliefs, you know, I'm not good enough, or I'm not wanted, or men always leave, or those kinds of stories.

• 13:45Lewis Howes?

  Or I can't trust people, or whatever it is. I don't have faith in humanity, or something, yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then, you know, and so we're kind of like, or, and then we go to, how am I going to have love? And there's like a sense of resignation, like, because it's become an identity, it's become a self sense. So one of the things we do in calling in the one is we look and name that identity, really specifically according to each person's story. Like, if your dad left when you were five, what did you make that mean about you?

• 14:12Lewis Howes?

  Yes, I'm not worthy, or that everyone's always going to leave me, or that

• 14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:17Lewis Howes?

  When I get close to someone, they're going to leave.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Right, because inside that consciousness, we're going to show up in ways that then validate that story, and it's so covert, and it seems like it's just happening to us, and we don't see how it's happening through us. One of my favorite stories about this is a woman who was in her twenties, and she was a client of mine, and she met this guy, and they really liked each other, and they were hot and heavy for a few weeks, and then all of a sudden, he stopped calling, completely no texts, no calls, one day, two day, three day, four day, five day, by the fifth day, she's like beside herself, because her dad left when she was five, and never came back. So in her world, men leave. And so she did what she thought was a great preemptive strike against being hurt, and

• 15:02Speaker 01

  she just texted him that she met someone new, and she's not interested in the connection anymore. Like, that to her was her way of getting her power back.

• 15:08Lewis Howes?

  As opposed to just having a conversation, or reaching out, and not making assumptions, and just saying, oh, can we hang out again? Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  She was so in her assumption. So anyway, two years later, she met him at a club and found out that he had been taking a break because he was like seriously thinking about asking her to be in a long-term committed relationship. And then he had to go back to certain women and close things up with them.

• 15:28Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  So he was like distracted, ending these other relationships.

• 15:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and trying to make sure it was the right thing. Wow.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Sabotaged herself.

• 15:36Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  So in calling in the one, we make that conscious. And then we go back and say, what's the deeper truth?

• 15:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  You know, well, your dad left, but not every man will ever leave you.

• 15:47Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  And probably if you learn some relationship skills on how to navigate difficult conversations, you'd have a higher chance of staying together.

• 15:53Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Right?

• 15:54Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. Yeah. And maybe they will leave you again.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  And maybe-

• 15:58Lewis Howes?

  But not everyone will.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  But not, exactly.

• 16:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 16:01Lewis Howes?

  You can't say, well, see, I'm just, I'm right now because this person left, or they were interested and then they left. Like, that's called dating.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  It is called dating. I say that to people all the time.

• 16:10Lewis Howes?

  It's called, they don't have to make a decision in the first two weeks, or the first two months, to be with you or not.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 16:16Lewis Howes?

  It's called getting to know someone and seeing where it goes.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:19Lewis Howes?

  It's not like you're not good enough.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:21Lewis Howes?

  Maybe it's just not a good fit, or the right timing, or maybe he's into someone else, whatever.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  So I'd, so, so, so I'd get people, I kind of help people to wake up out of that trance and get into a place of real possibility. Like the recognition that you actually have the power to influence what comes your way.

• 16:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  And what doesn't come your way, and get into a sense of possibility, and then begin to live into a vision, and start to align with that vision and live in integrity with that vision.

• 16:48Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  So that you're not like living your neurosis, you're kind of living, and you know, the thing about having these, you know, a lot of us have been doing our work, and we kind of know our issues, quote unquote, backwards and forwards, but there's something different about actually even giving up the right to have a certain conversation. Right? So you can like sit in therapy for five years and talk about men always leave me, or you could have a moment where you say, it's not actually true, it's the story of a five-year-old. This is what's actually true, and that's going to require me to show up in a different way. And I need to start showing up now in integrity with the future I'm committed to creating.

• 17:19Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  Because calling in the one is not about necessarily, you know, finding the guy, it's about becoming the woman that you would need to be, or becoming the man that you would need to be in order to find that partner.

• 17:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I had a, another friend of mine who's a, you know, does a lot of relationship work as well. I was like, what's the, the best way to find like a great partner? He said, create a list of everything you want out of that person. Everything you want from them, and then go be that yourself.

• 17:43Speaker 01

  Uh, yes.

• 17:44Lewis Howes?

  I was like, oh, man, that's strong. You want them to be funny and attractive and outgoing and adventurous and successful. Then you've got to be all those things. You can't just be half those things and expect someone else to give you more value than you're bringing to the table. Really, I mean, you've got to show up in a powerful way.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Definitely.

• 18:02Lewis Howes?

  So I was like, that is strong.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  That's it. And the other thing about calling in the one, I mean, you're a man of, of very clear mission.

• 18:08Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  And a lot of folks who are here with us today are very clear mission people. So you really need to find like, you need to be living your mission and you need to find someone who's sharing your mission.

• 18:19Lewis Howes?

  Sharing it or supporting it.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Sharing it or supporting it, but even the support needs to be, this is my contribution to that vision.

• 18:26Lewis Howes?

  Yes. And if it's taking away from the vision, it's really challenging.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Because if somebody doesn't actually have that same value system and they're just kind of rah rah, I'm not going to get in the way. Like you're going to go create a family, then you're going to create a home and then you're going to have kids maybe. And, you know, and, and if they really have like a traditional value system, they're going to be like, oh, you're, you're out. You know, running around talking to people again. No, you should be home with the kids this weekend.

• 18:51Lewis Howes?

  That's a challenge, you know?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  So you really do have, I think you have to find a mission partner if you really want to go all the way. And also to maximize the potentials of the, of the connection. I mean, that's the ideal. And then you know what? We human beings seem to make it work in all sorts of funny configurations and every single relationship is unique. Of course. To the people who are in it and, um, and, and relationships will inspire us to continue to grow. If we're really committed to maximizing the potentials of each connection.

• 19:19Lewis Howes?

  Of course. The chat, the scary thing about, you know, relationships are beautiful. I love, I love being in relationship with all types of human beings, men and women. I just love being in a relationship. And the challenge with intimate relationships is that one of two things are going to happen. You're either going to get married or you're going to break up. And they're both scary for people. Getting married or breaking up, it's like they're both a challenge. There's something you're letting go of and taking on when you do either ones.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:49Lewis Howes?

  And it's like, oh man, it's so challenging. So when we get to the point where. We eventually, you know, if we're gonna go through a breakup, how do we do it in a way where there's love and beauty and grace? And not craziness and jealousy and anger and resentment? Because I've been in previous relationships in my past where, man, I'm not, I'm not proud of the way things ended on both of our accounts. And I'm sure a lot of people have experienced some type of nastiness in a breakup. Based out of hurt, pain, resentment, anger, frustration, not feeling good enough, whatever it may be, feeling, you know, taken advantage of. So what's the process? If you know that something is not working and you've tried to work it out for a while and you're,

• 20:33Lewis Howes?

  you're giving your all and they're giving your all and you love each other, but it's not working for months and months, maybe years. How do you start the process of doing a breakup without it being painful?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 20:45Lewis Howes?

  And is that possible?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  It's not possible.

• 20:47Lewis Howes?

  It's not possible.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  That's not possible. That's not a realistic goal.

• 20:50Lewis Howes?

  Pain is inevitable.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Well, we're, we're hardwired to, to, to bond.

• 20:55Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  We just are like the, the latest studies in neurobiology show that when the people that we're, we're hanging with the most, we actually sync up physiologically.

• 21:06Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 21:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we start, so we're actually, our brains will start to hook up. Brains are social creatures. So if you're going to part ways, it's, there's no way for that to not be incredibly painful. But so conscious uncoupling is more about, okay, how are we gonna suffer in an effective way?

• 21:29Lewis Howes?

  So pain is inevitable. You're gonna experience pain. It's gonna be challenging. How do you do it in a way where you can still be okay with it?

• 21:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that you're gonna be able to.

• 21:39Lewis Howes?

  And not drag it on for years or something, right?

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Oh, exactly. Well, that's when people create a negative bond as opposed to a positive because they can't let go. See, that's the brain though. The brain doesn't want to let go at any cost. The brain is hardwired, even depression. There've been studies that shows, you know, even puppies get depressed, you know, when they can't find their moms. They like go in the corner and they're just like really depressed. And I heard there was one scientist who was kind of quantificating on the reason for this. I thought it. Really made a lot of sense, which is it's nature's way of slowing us down so we don't move too quickly away from the object that we are attached to.

• 22:11Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  So, so nature is really kind of airs on the side of attachment. And so we don't necessarily do that in our value system. We might say, I can't stay with someone who doesn't really, isn't in the center of my mission. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to dim down and live a lesser life in order to keep this relationship going. I can't do, it would be such a betrayal of myself.

• 22:35Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  So, you know, and we have to recognize that, you know, in previous generations, people didn't really have that. Like, it was just, you just did that. You like dim down, you settled, you took care of your family.

• 22:46Lewis Howes?

  Because of your church, because of your family, whatever, you know.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Like, so this is a new emergence that's happening. And I, I think it's part of like our grand awakening that's happening in the world. We're all growing really super fast right now.

• 22:57Lewis Howes?

  And if our partners aren't growing with us, it becomes a challenge.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  It is a challenge. It is a challenge in terms of prioritizing how you're going to spend your time or what you're going to do with your energy, your being able to share your inner world. Esther Perel's, Esther, what's, I'm sorry, Esther Slame. But do you know this, the, the relationship expert who does, talks a lot about infidelity? She's got a new book coming out and she, one of her things that she's talking about is existential affairs, you know, and like the love affair with life and the love affair with mission. And it can pull on us. Yeah, can pull on us. Anyway, so, so I, I can't, I lost the through line right there. What was I saying?

• 23:39Lewis Howes?

  Good question. I lost it too.

• 23:42Lewis Howes?

  Going into the five steps, going into the five steps. So, you know, the, the pain is inevitable, but how do we do the suffering in a loving way?

• 23:51Speaker 01

  We don't want to have ineffective suffering.

• 23:53Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Okay, so ineffective suffering is when you take the bait of your biology and you, you go to form.

• 24:00Lewis Howes?

  Which is strong.

• 24:01Speaker 01

  A very strong, super strong.

• 24:03Lewis Howes?

  Strong.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  Right. And so you're going to fight or flight and you want to, you want to lash out that, you know, soulmate to soul hate phenomenon. So, so you want to lash out, but what it will do is create a negative bond and keep you just as invested, but only this time through a toxic negative cycle of negativity.

• 24:19Lewis Howes?

  Reinforcing negativity, yeah.

• 24:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:21Lewis Howes?

  And that's not healthy because you love the person. You don't want to hate them or be mad at them constantly.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, so I, I think where we want to go is, um, or I know where we want to go is to be able to find a way to de-escalate the intensity of the emotions that we're feeling.

• 24:38Lewis Howes?

  How do we do that? When we're, you know, hardwired to be jealous, or angry, or just like reactive? How do we say, "Okay, I'm gonna be in the home state right now and calm and meditate and not let any of this affect me?"

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Well, the one of the reasons it's so hard is because our relationships actually regulate our emotions.

• 24:57Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  They reg- they're, they're fear regulators.

• 25:00Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Our relationships.

• 25:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  So when there's a rupture of attachment, you know that phenomenon, like the, the one person who's hurting you the most, that's the person you want to see the most to comfort you. So they, because they are, you're hardwired to get regulated by that person. They're the one person who can comfort you and soothe you. So the, the, the-

• 25:20Lewis Howes?

  Otherwise, you're the puppy in the corner, just like depressed.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, or enraged, right?

• 25:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Or freaking out. I mean, depression is actually a higher level of, you know, on, on Elizabeth Kubler's Ross's stages of grief, you have bargaining, denial, and anger, and then you have depression.

• 25:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  And so depression is like, I'm starting to come to terms with this, so it's actually a good thing in a breakup. But, but I think you're saying, like, how do you deal with the anger and the rage and the-

• 25:45Lewis Howes?

  Jealousy.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  You know, the, all of that stuff.

• 25:47Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  So, so one of the things that I offer people is a simple technique called affect labeling in, in the psychological world, uh, which is basically the ability to put a name on each of your feelings.

• 26:00Lewis Howes?

  Okay, so give me an example.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  So, um, uh, uh, an example is, uh, first of all, there was a scientific study done where subjects were looking at a computer screen, and they were seeing, you know, faces of horror, faces of rage, faces of hatred, and they were being monitored in all of their vitals, and they're kind of going off the charts, their blood pressure's rising and their heart rate is going. And then they did another technique with this, and they sent the same pictures to a new group, but put, uh, a name, hatred, rage, despair, and the vitals did not go up in the same way.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  So what that shows is that when we have a name for the experience that we're having, we don't get as overwhelmed.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  So language serves kind of as a container.

• 26:53Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. So how would we use that in a, in a breakup?

• 26:56Speaker 01

  So I have a practice where I just, it's very simply advise people to ask yourself, you know, Catherine, honey, what are you feeling right now? I'm feeling terrified. I can see that you're feeling terrified, honey. What else are you feeling? I'm feeling so humiliated. Oh, I can see that. You're so humiliated. What else are you feeling? I'm feeling really pissed. Okay, okay, I can see that you're feeling that. What else are you feeling? I feel exhilarated. You know, because we have all these feelings going on at once. They don't have to get on with each other, you know? So it's so that that process.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  And then sometimes if the feelings are overwhelming, I also give that people an opportunity to do this process of tonglen, which is a Buddhist process. I'm not Buddhist myself, but it's a beautiful practice that Pema Shodron actually made very popular of you breathe a certain feeling into your heart. So I feel despair. I'm going to breathe despair in. I'm not going to turn away from it. And on the out breath, I'm going to breathe out a blessing to everyone in the world who in this very moment is suffering with this very feeling, including myself. And it starts to be like you can start to hold the feeling more because you've made a bigger playing field and you see it as an impersonal experience. And then you become, you know, a force of good.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Ideally, what happens is we want to harvest the seeds of growth that are inside of each of our feelings. So for instance, the feeling of rage, there's something underneath it, like a violation has occurred and there's a part of us that's saying, I, I should be treated better. I deserve respect. I deserve that my, that my feelings should matter to the people that love me and that I've opened my life up to, and I deserve to have better. So that can actually become a stand then that you take. You know, because we're going to move into self-responsibility. How is it giving my power away? How is it okay? How is I, you know, treating people to disrespect me? All of that kind of thing.

• 28:59Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Right, so you want to harvest the seeds of growth.

• 29:03Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Because this is the thing, there's also a teacher, Ken MacLeod, talks about karma. And he breaks karma down, basically to its original Sanskrit meaning, which means the ability to, to, to plant seeds for the future. It's, it's action, seed, results.

• 29:27Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  So every action we take, every choice that we make, in that moment where we're in a breakup, is planting a seed for the future.

• 29:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  And a lot of people who end up in that negative spiral where you're, you know, years later, fighting and back in court and stuff, is because at the very beginning, people planted bad seeds of hatred and rage. And that's what that grows in your backyard, and you're eating those bitter fruits for years to come. So it's, it becomes actually self-destructive. It's meant to hurt somebody else, in the way that you feel hurt, but it becomes self-destructive. And so, you know, it's, it, one of the principles in step one of conscious uncoupling is, you know, do no harm and plant good seeds.

• 30:08Lewis Howes?

  Do no harm to yourself or other people?

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Other people even. Do no harm to anyone, even though you want to lash out.

• 30:14Lewis Howes?

  You want to get mad or upset?

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Run around the track.

• 30:18Lewis Howes?

  Work out.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  Work out, do a great work of art.

• 30:21Lewis Howes?

  Hang out with your friends.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  You know, just like throw paint on a canvas, write in your journal.

• 30:26Lewis Howes?

  Don't react to your partner or your...

• 30:27Speaker 01

  But don't send the email. Right.

• 30:29Lewis Howes?

  Or the text message.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Or the text, right.

• 30:34Lewis Howes?

  Don't do it. What does that do when you do those things?

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Well, it starts to plant those, those bad seeds. I mean, it's very easy to cross the line and say things that you can never, ever take back, and that kind of color life moving forward. And I think what happens to us is that we go, we go down a path of living a lesser life in the aftermath of a really bad breakup, an ugly breakup. And so as hard-

• 30:55Lewis Howes?

  It's longer to bounce back, too.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Much longer to bounce back. And also, the mo- I mean, this goes into step two of the process. As long as you're pointing the finger at someone else, even if they were misbehaved and did terrible, terrible things, you're not using the opportunity to, you know, look at yourself and how you co-created the dynamic that allowed for that to happen.

• 31:17Lewis Howes?

  You're responsible for everything, too, so.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  And, and the only way you're ever going to trust yourself to love and be loved again is to take responsibility for your part of it, because then you can make an amends to yourself and make a decision to never behave that way again.

• 31:30Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. And the first step you have here is called find emotional freedom. Is that part of this process we talked about?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Well, find emotional freedom is the first one with the affect labeling and like so that you're, so that you have your feelings, they don't have you.

• 31:43Lewis Howes?

  They don't have control over you.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  They don't have control over you, exactly.

• 31:46Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha. And the second one's reclaim your power in your life.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:49Lewis Howes?

  So getting back your own power.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Which always means, you know, you know, the path to power, right? Path to power is responsibility.

• 31:57Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 31:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, otherwise you're a victim.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Right. You've got to get out of victim consciousness. And it's so easy to be in victim consciousness. And the thing about a breakup is when you're traumatized, what happens to us is, you know, trauma is basically that whatever is happening is more than you can wrap yourself around. So you can't actually hold it. It's so, it's overwhelming.

• 32:19Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  And so it, it, it, it starts to overwhelm us in a way that has us start to tell the story over and over and over again. And that's where we're burning our friends out, because we just want to talk about what she did and what he did, you know?

• 32:33Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  It was so terrible.

• 32:34Lewis Howes?

  They're like, get over this already.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  So, um, so it's normal to need to tell the story and to be a bit obsessive about the story, but the way that we're telling the story is really critical, because you could be telling the story from a victimized perspective over and over again, which is kind of solidifying, um, your, that, that point of view.

• 32:55Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  And then kind of destined, you know, making it destined for you to then move into living a lesser life of being more guarded.

• 33:04Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:05Speaker 01

  You know, I mean-

• 33:06Lewis Howes?

  Saying I was right about my past and how this is, you know, always going to show up this way and-

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, I liken a broken heart to a broken leg. Where, you know, we understand that when you break your leg, it's never going to be fun. But we know, you go to the doctor, you get this, you get it set properly and you tend to the brake properly.

• 33:26Lewis Howes?

  It takes time to heal.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  And then eventually, it takes time.

• 33:29Lewis Howes?

  You don't run on it right away.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:30Lewis Howes?

  It takes six months, a year, you know, till you're fully recovered.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  Yes, and you, and you, but you do whatever you have to do to make sure that you're not going to run with a limp.

• 33:40Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, yes.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  For the rest of your life, you know, that you're not going to be in agony every time it rains. And that's kind of the heart's equivalent of if you don't, you know, take the proper steps to set your heart in the right direction. So, you know, telling the story over and over again from a victimized perspective is like not setting the brake properly.

• 33:59Lewis Howes?

  It's like continually just walking on a broken leg. It's like walking on it, it's like you feel it like cringing, you know, it's feel the bones grinding.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, um, so.

• 34:11Lewis Howes?

  So how does someone go into the next relationship? You know, they have their heart broken or didn't work out, they spent 10 years married and they have a child with someone and it's, you made a vow to your family and to God and your religion and everyone and your whole values came down to this one relationship that you said, I was going to commit to this for the rest of my life. And everyone watched you say this commitment. And now how do you move on? I mean, maybe we should do the final two steps first or three steps first, but.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Well, no, I, I, I love your question. I love it because it's asked with so much integrity. And, and, and I think it's asked really, you ask the question like a man. Like a woman wouldn't necessarily ask that question the way that you asked it.

• 34:55Lewis Howes?

  Oh, you know.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Because, and I think it's important to just validate what you just did because I, I just love that men tend to make their commitments, take their commitments so seriously.

• 35:05Lewis Howes?

  I think women do too. I mean, women that grow up in a religious way, you know, that are like, okay, like my vow and my commitment in front of God and my family is like for life.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  And sixty-nine percent of breakups are initiated by women.

• 35:18Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yes, divorces, sixty-nine percent. So I think that we have a different-

• 35:22Lewis Howes?

  And women are less their words than men, huh?

• 35:23Speaker 01

  I think we have a different relationship to it, in a way. I think that we're, we've, we care about our internal life-

• 35:30Lewis Howes?

  Emotions.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  And our emotions and our feelings. And if we don't feel like it's the right place, we will then, you know, choose that-

• 35:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Um, to, to honor that. That's, I mean, obviously, forgive me for stereotypes.

• 35:41Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure, of course.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  But I just really appreciate it. Cause I, I look to men with that kind of ferocity of commitment and keep your word, like, with great respect and honor. Like, like, wow, we really need to aspire to be more like that. But, so it's a great question.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  I think, you know, it is...

• 36:01Speaker 01

  So let me, so let me relate to your question to just kind of finishing up the step two, which is, which is, I think, you know, when we go to self-reflect about taking personal responsibility, which you're gonna have to do big time in order to, you know, break that commitment.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  You wanna ask yourself questions that are gonna actually foster growth and development. And, and most of us ask ourselves shame-based questions, and that's why we can't take personal responsibility.

• 36:27Lewis Howes?

  What questions do we usually ask?

• 36:29Speaker 01

  What's wrong with me?

• 36:30Lewis Howes?

  Oh, right, yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  What's wrong with me?

• 36:32Lewis Howes?

  Why can't I keep it together? Why can't we make it work?

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Why doesn't anybody love me? You know?

• 36:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  What's wrong with me? How can I be so stupid? Right, so we'll ask-

• 36:41Lewis Howes?

  How did I see this coming before? I didn't see the red flags.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Right, why didn't I see this coming? Yeah, so it's basically some variation on the theme of what's wrong with me.

• 36:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  That's not gonna ever foster growth and development. Like, the questions that you wanna be asking are, you know, okay, if this is what I keep creating, what part of me feels safer being alone than in relationship? Or how do I give my power away to try and be liked? Where do I, you know, show up in ways that are like self-disparaging? Or, you know, not really standing for myself so that I train someone else to treat me badly? You know, it's like, those kinds of questions are gonna lead to- Emancipation from old patterns and you're going to become a better version of yourself. And I think if you, if we lose something that we were once deeply invested in, in with our

• 37:32Speaker 01

  whole hearts, that we have to come out of the experience as better versions of ourselves to really live with ourselves. We're going to come out more humble, more generous, more soft-hearted, more conscious, more aware of the impact of our choices on another person. You know, and ultimately, so that's effective suffering, right? Now, we're, now we're talking about effective suffering.

• 37:54Lewis Howes?

  Deeper empathy, being serious more.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like the cost, I mean, a lot of us just skim over these things. Our partner can ask us for things for a long time and we don't think it's important. And then when we lose the relationship, we go, wow, that was like super important. That was nothing to skim over. I should have taken that more seriously. So we're learning about relationships as we go forward.

• 38:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  And I think that the commitment to then implement that moving forward is what helps us to live with ourselves. The step three is about going back and healing the original wound in our heart. We talked a little about that in, in the calling in the one conversation. Like what's the I'm not wanted or the I'm alone and how have you been showing up in ways that have kind of recreated that story? And the, the, the most important part is like, well, what's really true?

• 38:42Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Cause these are lies that we've been living inside of. And if you were really centered in that deeper truth, like how would you be showing up in all your relationships? So you really have a chance to graduate from all painful patterns inside of that.

• 38:56Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  And then step four is-

• 38:59Lewis Howes?

  I love the word you used here, the love alchemist.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Love alchemist.

• 39:02Lewis Howes?

  I love that. What does that mean to you?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Well, it's about being generative of the future, of a positive future. So it's the recognition that people are going to lash out, that people are going to do, you know, unconscious things because that's what's normal in a breakup.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Right, so I normalize that, like, nobody goes through conscious uncoupling perfectly, like, we're gonna do this. Everybody goes through it messy.

• 39:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  You know, because a breakup is like a birth canal, like, you get your face smushed in, and you're like, in it, you don't know where you're going, you're kind of out of control. So, you're, you're, you're just, you're doing the best you can. And so, so step four is about setting an intention for a positive outcome for everyone impacted, and aligning with that future. And so, so when there's breakdowns in communication, it's about responding in a generative way. So, somebody comes to you and says, "Well, I thought you were gonna do this, and you said you were gonna do that." Instead of saying, "Yeah, but you said this," and blah, blah, blah, going down, spiraling down, you might say, "Oh, wow, okay, you're upset. Let me see if I understand what you're upset

• 40:03Speaker 01

  about. Yeah, you're right, I did kind of mess that up. Okay, you're absolutely right." And that's inconsistent with the future that we're committed to creating too. I'm gonna really try harder. So, you're making amends.

• 40:15Lewis Howes?

  I think that's the same thing for being in a relationship, is doing that.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Well, this is-

• 40:19Lewis Howes?

  As well as being, you know, uncoupling.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  I'm creating a whole thing for conscious recoupling for people who've gone through the program, because actually, that's what happens sometimes.

• 40:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  So, the program could actually be for people who are just really struggling in their relationship, too.

• 40:33Lewis Howes?

  Or it's ended and they got back together, or any of those options, got you.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, it's about learning how to repair.

• 40:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  And, and repairing in a way that's not necessarily about getting back together again, right? Repairing in a way that says, you know, "Even though you're not my primary mate, I value you."

• 40:53Lewis Howes?

  I love you and care about you, yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  I value our connection, I value who you've been. I mean, I have a daughter with my former husband, who I affectionately call my "wesband." And, and, you know, I value him for so many reasons. He's the one father my daughter will ever have. He gave me the gift of our daughter. He shows up, he fathers her really well. Like, I'm constantly, I'm constantly demonstrating how valuable he is to me and to our family. He has like, a place of honor in my life. You know, that's how I hold him, that's how I treat him. And I like to remind people that, you know, when we're in relationships, we're always building, you know, we're investing in the, in the, the kind of emotional bank with each

• 41:40Speaker 01

  other. You compliment, you support, you show up for things.

• 41:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Um, I think that when you have children, or if you have a business relationship, for instance, you know, where you have ongoing things happening, you still want to invest in the relationship. You're just investing

• 41:56Lewis Howes?

  In a different way.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  In a different way, but you're investing in the health of your family in the same way that you might, you know, be generous to a cousin or to your brother, like somebody has not left your family. If you have children, that person's still your family.

• 42:09Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course. So when did you realize he wasn't the one anymore?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  It was kind of gradual, truthfully. And it, for me, it had to do with the disparity in our missions.

• 42:21Lewis Howes?

  So you had different, different alignments?

• 42:23Speaker 01

  We did, you know, and, and when we got married, it looked like they were the same thing.

• 42:30Lewis Howes?

  Huh.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  But I think that it took a few years to reveal that they really were not. Now, sometimes when people have different values, they complement each other. Right? So my value of expansion and growth and moving, you know, onwards and upwards all the time, aspiring to be a better human being and evolve my own consciousness.

• 42:59Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Um, I'm, I'm a growth junkie. I'm a change junkie.

• 43:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  He is very Buddhist and his practice is really around more like accepting what is and seeing the beauty in what is. So I think you can have a marriage like that and have it work if you're inspired by each other and you're valuing each other and you're learning a bit of each other's practice.

• 43:22Lewis Howes?

  You're growing together.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Because, you know, they are two beautiful sides of the same coin and, and one could actually learn from the other. But with us, it just kind of fell flat. Like it just, it just wasn't going anywhere. And we're both kind of really devoted to those paths.

• 43:41Lewis Howes?

  The mission, and you don't want to give up on your mission.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  You can't, in a way.

• 43:44Lewis Howes?

  Otherwise, you're like giving up on yourself.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just, it wa- I mean, he would never have asked that of me. And I would never have asked that of him. So we just decided, I mean, it was actually a very loving decision between us. We decided that if we were both feeling held back on our missions and our purposes, that what we would do is just reconfigure the family so that we were both free to pursue and go all the way with what we were called and committed to.

• 44:10Lewis Howes?

  But what about your commitment to the marriage forever?

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Well, I think.

• 44:15Lewis Howes?

  How do you let go of that conversation?

• 44:18Speaker 01

  You know, we just decide, made a different decision. And but, and we decided that, that we were going to love each other outside of the form of the marriage. That the marriage, that the mantle of marriage was not an appropriate one for our relationship anymore. It wasn't the, the best one for us. And I, I think it was really a great decision. I mean, I just see what's happened for him in the aftermath, and I see what's happened for me. And I, I wouldn't be who I am now, and he wouldn't be who he is now.

• 44:47Lewis Howes?

  Right. What if one person really wants to stay in a relationship or makes the other person wrong for wanting to end it? Because they're not willing to work hard enough, that they're willing to sacrifice enough, or they don't share the same values? Or they said one thing and they took it back? How does that person who wants to evolve and wants to uncouple consciously out of love? Or grow from that, how does that person handle the person who doesn't get it?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Um.

• 45:16Lewis Howes?

  Or doesn't see it?

• 45:17Speaker 01

  It's one of the.

• 45:18Lewis Howes?

  Or makes them wrong for it.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  It's one of the things that makes breakups so hard, is that rarely are two people in the same place.

• 45:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  I mean, I was the one that wanted, that suggested the ending, but. Um, we had been engaging this dialogue. So at the time it wasn't.

• 45:34Lewis Howes?

  Wasn't a shocker.

• 45:35Speaker 01

  It wasn't a big shocker and, and he was very, very gracious about it. But that was not the norm. I think the norm is usually what you're talking about.

• 45:44Lewis Howes?

  Reacting, getting mad.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  And the thing about what happens at the end of a relationship is usually there's one person who is the initiator of the breakup and usually it's going on for them for a while. And they're kind of.

• 45:58Lewis Howes?

  It's not just one moment, oh, this isn't working.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  No, it's going, it's months or years. Exactly. And so they're, what they're doing is they're getting a lot of their grieving done in the marriage. And they are building a life outside of the marriage so that their identity is not so wrapped up in the marriage.

• 46:17Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  And, um, so, so by the time they're ready to say this is over, they've kind of done all of, a lot of their inner work around accepting that. And the other person is shocked.

• 46:35Lewis Howes?

  And so they have a, they're reacting and they have a long way to go.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  They have a longer way to go, but conscious uncoupling is also important to the person who's leaving. Because they too have a victimization story that's justifying the leaving and they too have duplicated patterns and it looks like it's happening to them.

• 46:53Lewis Howes?

  They didn't give me enough, that's why I'm leaving, or they weren't showing up in a way that I needed or whatever.

• 46:57Speaker 01

  Right. Without being aware that they didn't ask for that, or that, you know, or that who they were being influenced to the other person was showing up. So they're likely to duplicate that dynamic with someone else.

• 47:09Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then the fifth step.

• 47:12Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Create your happily even afterlife.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:16Lewis Howes?

  How do we do that?

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Well, that has to do with taking care of the whole community. And, you know, I like to say that relationships have two sides to the same coin. There's the private experience of what's happened between a couple. I say that that's, that relationship takes place between the sheets and between the lines.

• 47:38Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Right? And then, but then there's the public aspect of relationship. And there is what the couple means to the community. The couple means something obviously to their own children, but also their extended family, to the in-laws, and also their friends or their spiritual group. And, you know, we all know that people. We talk about people as being, couples of being the pillars of the community. So in some way, they make the community feel safe.

• 48:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow. And when they're not together, how do you make them feel safe?

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Right. And then people feel torn and do I need to give loyalties to one or the other? Cause we'll kind of all devolve into a concept, an idea of war. So there's a way that, you know, we need to take care of the community. One of the things I did with my own mom is she, you know, she did what anybody who's loving would do. When I said I was getting divorced, she started to immediately kind of devalue my husband and the marriage. Right? Cause she's trying to show solidarity.

• 48:36Lewis Howes?

  That's not helpful, is it?

• 48:38Speaker 01

  I think on an emotional level.

• 48:40Lewis Howes?

  When family members are like, oh, you're not, he wasn't good enough for you anyways. Or you can do better, or this and that, he always did this. That's unhealthy for the unconscious coupling.

• 48:48Speaker 01

  No, it's not. But what is helpful is that they're giving, they're extending their love and their loyalty.

• 48:54Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  And that's really what they want to do. I'm here for you. I love you. I see you. I'm on your side. You know, so, so that you want to keep. But I had to educate her and say, you know, we're not gonna do it that way. And this is who Mark is for me. And I'm not a perfect person either, by the way. And.

• 49:13Lewis Howes?

  It felt like I'm the golden ticket and everything was perfect.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he was just the wrong guy, you know, like so it was co-created and this is just a choice we're making. But we're gonna do it differently and we're gonna be really respectful and honorable. And oh, by the way, he's still your son-in-law.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  You just have to get used to the fact that I'm not married to him anymore.

• 49:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  And she was on board for that. So now she buys some Christmas gifts like everybody else.

• 49:36Lewis Howes?

  That's nice.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  So, you know, that's just our quirky family.

• 49:40Lewis Howes?

  So it's conscious uncoupling with families as well.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  It is.

• 49:43Lewis Howes?

  Like they have to learn how to be conscious about it.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Yes, they do.

• 49:45Lewis Howes?

  And not just be like negative, feeding you into this negativity.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was, I mean, in my own family, it was great because my mother had had a very bad divorce from my stepfather actually decades before. And they had never really resolved a lot of anger between them. And then she watched how I did this with my own former husband. And she went back and created a conscious uncoupling with him.

• 50:06Lewis Howes?

  Powerful.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So.

• 50:07Lewis Howes?

  Powerful example.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  So now that everybody's, you know, on speaking terms and everybody's friendly and.

• 50:13Lewis Howes?

  Nice.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  There's more of a feeling like we have one family and we don't have these fragments of relationships everywhere.

• 50:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious now, do you know how many, um, what the divorce rate is right now?

• 50:24Speaker 01

  There's so many different ways to look at that and calculate that. I think.

• 50:28Lewis Howes?

  In the US at least, I guess.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Well, I've read that there's of the 2.2 million marriages in 2015 will also have 1.1 million divorces.

• 50:37Lewis Howes?

  In 2015.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's where people get that 50% number. I think also there was a article in the Huffington Post that I cite where that there was, I think, a little over 40% divorce rate for first marriages, over 60% for second marriages, and over 70% for third marriages.

• 50:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow, okay, so when all these divorce, I mean, how many people do you think are staying in a marriage? Because they feel like they should, or their commitment, or family that aren't happy?

• 51:12Speaker 01

  I think a lot of us do. I mean, there was a study that was done years ago, and I think, and I'd have to look it up. I write about it in the book, but I think it's 38% of us reported being unhappy in marriage.

• 51:26Lewis Howes?

  So how many actually, who stay together are actually happy, do you think, in marriage after a few years?

• 51:33Speaker 01

  I think it's not an easy aspiration to have. I don't, I don't have a figure for you, and I, so I could guess.

• 51:42Lewis Howes?

  What do you, what do you think, in range?

• 51:44Speaker 01

  A third.

• 51:45Lewis Howes?

  A third.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  And I think that's a high figure.

• 51:46Lewis Howes?

  A third of the 50% who are together still? So like 20% of people that get married are actually happy, you think?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, those, those are the kind of numbers we're looking at.

• 51:55Lewis Howes?

  Are fully fulfilled, are fully happy, or just settling?

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we have to grow. We have to learn how to do this better. You know, I'm really fascinated with conscious coupling. And I'm interested in like, what's gonna, I'm actually working on something right now that I'm calling Unbreakable Bonds. The Four Healthy Habits of the Happily Attached. Like, I want to know what makes relationships great.

• 52:17Lewis Howes?

  You gotta find those 20%.

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I would like to switch that number. I'd like 80% of us really thriving in our relationships with each other.

• 52:26Lewis Howes?

  The question is, when, you know, if 20% roughly of people are actually happy in marriage long-term, why be in a relationship and get married when it's gonna end in suffering?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Well, I think if we learn how to end our relationships responsibly, we can take the risk to do that. I mean, I'm grateful that I had a wonderful marriage. I really am grateful. There was so much the good that came out of it. I mean, look, calling in the one came out of it. Conscious uncoupling came out of it. My, our daughter

• 52:51Lewis Howes?

  You've helped a lot of people, yeah.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I, I think that relationships and committed relationships in particular are really amazing because, you know, to have somebody really on your side and really rooting for you and up underneath you and, um, you know, to also have people to care about and to love so you get out of your own way.

• 53:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  And we get to engage with each other and learn. I've learned so much. I'm such a different person than the woman who married Mark. I'm much more mature.

• 53:20Lewis Howes?

  You've grown.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Much more present. I'm much more tolerant. I'm, I think I'm a more loving person now.

• 53:26Lewis Howes?

  So you're saying it's okay to get in a relationship even if you break up?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Even if you're gonna break up. In some ways, I think, see, I think knowing that if we could break, if we had to, we, we would have a way to do this well and peacefully allows us to even open our hearts further and go into relationships more committed, you know, with more of ourselves available.

• 53:50Lewis Howes?

  Knowing that, hey, it may end and it's gonna be okay either way.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  It will be okay. Nobody's gonna be damaged. We're always gonna be good to each other.

• 53:58Lewis Howes?

  But most people don't go into that with that mindset.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I'm hoping to change.

• 54:02Lewis Howes?

  And it's hard to go into a mindset thinking, I'm so in love with this person. I wanna create a future with them. I wanna, you know, create a family. But we may break up one day.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Well.

• 54:12Lewis Howes?

  It's hard to like have that on your mind when you're going into it.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  I think people do have that on their minds, though. I mean, I don't think that we're sticking our head in the sand at a 50% divorce rate. I think we're very aware of that rate. And I think that we're very aware of how disgusting and ugly it usually is. And so that's keeping a lot of us from You know, moving forward, and I think for, for men in particular, I think, you know, men have gotten a very bad rap in terms of custody things and, you know, you know, alimony stuff. And, you know, I think a lot of men have cold feet around marriage in general because of-

• 54:43Lewis Howes?

  Right. They feel like they're gonna get screwed at some point or something.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Well, and I have to add, and forgive me, I have to say that for women too, because now women are, you know, even the primary breadwinner of the little family just as often. So that's, so anybody who's gone, although I think that we women tend to still hold on to the ideal, but I think men are very pragmatic about it. And a lot of men are a little bit nervous about that, that kind of potential. So, we're looking at divorce reform and, you know, reform and, and the evolution around breakups, not just emotionally, but also legally. There's a lot happening on the legal field. I've been working and talking to some legal professionals who are really committed to evolving-

• 55:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Uh, the legal landscape of divorce too, to make that much more holistic and wholesome.

• 55:26Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Make it a more wholesome process.

• 55:29Lewis Howes?

  It's challenging.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  So that we're not so terrified of losing each other should we commit, so that we're actually freer to commit and dive in absolutely 110% with each other.

• 55:39Lewis Howes?

  What do you think the world needs more of, in terms of when they're in relationships?

• 55:44Speaker 01

  Love, sweet love. Um, when they're in relationships?

• 55:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Uh, how about self-awareness and self-responsibility?

• 55:52Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  You know, presence of mind to get out of our old habits, the awareness of what your old trance is, the "I'm not good enough" or "I'm alone" or, and, and what kind of, see, inside of those old beliefs, our development got stunted. We never actually learned certain skills in relationship inside of that worldview. If you think you're invisible and no one ever really cares about you, why in the world would you even bother learning how to state your needs clearly? Because there's an assumption that the other person won't care about them.

• 56:24Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Right? So, so once you, you learn your consciousness, you understand- You know, what your filters are and you you are willing to work to break those up and reality check them and get into your adult center and actually have an adult relationship and not be running the show from your wounded child.

• 56:44Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  It's going to cause a whole new opportunity for happiness and love.

• 56:48Lewis Howes?

  I love it. What do you want people to take away from this the most? What is the your mission with this book?

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Well, my mission is that there is another way. I mean, I myself, we didn't get into this and, you know, we're probably running out of time now, but I myself was the product of a very bad divorce. And all of those things that they say could go wrong, did go wrong. You know, I had difficulties in school and I was promiscuous and I was smoking cigarettes by the age of 10 and hanging out in bars by the age of 14. Then I had, you know, difficult relational patterns in my 20s. And so and and and really like painful, painful, painful patterns up until in my 30s when I started to kind of sort myself out and finally figure it out. And my mission is to spare a whole generation of children that agony.

• 57:37Speaker 01

  You know, we kind of know these results of what happens in a bad divorce for children. We know that they have difficult relationships, that they're more likely to divorce later on and all those kinds of things. However, those of us who've been through it understand what it is internally and it can be an emotional homelessness that can last for years or it can be a low-grade depression or it can be a feeling of I don't belong anywhere or, you know, deep aloneness, like all of those kinds of things in consciousness that happen in what I'll call like an uncontained divorce. And so Conscious Uncoupling is about keeping the family of family and making sure that

• 58:21Speaker 01

  children feel cared for and loved and even the children in all of us, you know, so that we we don't have to go into emotional homelessness because we're going to transition to union, but we can remember that we all do belong to each other and that each one of us is, you know, felt more held in a field of love and belonging.

• 58:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I like that.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:42Lewis Howes?

  We are getting to the end of the time, although I want to continue to ask you questions. So maybe we'll have you come back on another time and do round two. But to wrap it up, I've got a couple of final questions. One is, what are you most grateful for recently?

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  There's a lot of magic in my life right now. Almost too much to even begin to name.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  I think this book for me is such a profound, important contribution to make because of my childhood and because of my journey and the difficulties I've had in romantic love and intimate love for many, many years. And the opportunity to take the thing that was most devastating and most challenging in my life and turn it into a gift that I can now offer to the world is incredible. And I'm super grateful that the moment that it went out into the lexicon through Gwyneth Paltrow's website, that it was embraced and it began to reposition divorce.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  So to be able, I have this feeling like, you know, for years I was saying, I just, I have such a desire to contribute. For years I was saying to my friend, I just want to hit it out of the ballpark. I just want to hit it out of the ballpark for love. I just want to do something like so loving in this world. And, and when that happened, it was like hitting it out of the ballpark.

• 1:00:16Lewis Howes?

  When was that?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  That happened last year. And that's how I got this wonderful book deal with Harmony. And now the book is coming out and I feel really proud of the book. I feel like it really names it and lays out the process in a way that's accessible to people and not super woo woo. Like it really gets like, I know what you're going through on an emotional level and you still can do this.

• 1:00:38Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  So there's just been a tremendous amount of support and magic around. So I'm super grateful for that.

• 1:00:45Lewis Howes?

  Awesome. Yeah, this book is great. I mean, it's got a lot of great things. I love, there's a headline here, what if you're hoping you'll get back together? I saw great exercises in here of really processes we can do ourselves with other friends, with our partner or the partner we're breaking up with. So I highly recommend getting the book, Conscious Uncoupling. If you're thinking about going through a breakup, you know, a friend who's going through one, any of those things, get them this and send them this episode as well.

• 1:01:13Lewis Howes?

  Two final questions.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:15Lewis Howes?

  The first one is, I ask at the end is the three truths question. So. If all your books have been erased and everything you've ever put out there has been gone and it's your last moments, you've got a piece of paper and a pencil to write down three truths that you know to be true about what you've experienced in life and everything that you've learned, what would be those three things?

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Love yourself, love others, and love life.

• 1:01:40Lewis Howes?

  There you go.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  That's my religion.

• 1:01:42Lewis Howes?

  That's simple. I love it.

• 1:01:45Lewis Howes?

  Final question before I ask, I want to acknowledge you for a moment, Catherine.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:01:50Lewis Howes?

  And I want to acknowledge you for

• 1:01:53Lewis Howes?

  the courage that's taken for you for all the things you've done in the last 10 years. First, getting in a marriage and then ending a marriage that you thought you probably were supposed to stay with forever and having two different books talking about them. I mean, for me, that's courageous, putting yourself out there to the world and really, you know, I would feel, I don't know what I would feel about that. If I was the one teaching people how to find the one and then say, okay, you know what? I was wrong or I was, or it didn't work out and it's okay. Here's how to make it okay. So for you to do that and go through everything you've been going through personally and emotionally and physically.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Lewis Howes?

  I really acknowledge you for your, your mission because it's so inspiring to know that you're continually creating great information and serving the world while you're going through everything that you're going through because I know it's hard to create something magical and useful for people when you go through that much emotional and physical stress. So I want to acknowledge you for that.

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 1:02:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:54Lewis Howes?

  The final question is what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  I've been thinking a lot about that since you invited me here. I think greatness is about being able to take whatever is happening for us personally and, and really striving to make it into a contribution for the collective.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  To, um, to continually strive to contribute goodness to this world of ours and to lean in wholeheartedly with the effort to leave, leave a legacy of goodness and well-being and love and to recognize that we're really living into a future that we might never even live to see.

• 1:03:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. There you go. Catherine, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

• 1:03:48Lewis Howes?

  There you have it guys. I hope this was helpful. I hope this was healing. I hope this was grounding for those who are experiencing a breakup or for those who are thinking about breaking up a relationship. This can be, you know, business or personal relationships. I hope this found you some relief and some optimism and possibility for good things to come ahead. Also, if you know someone who is going through a breakup or who has been thinking about it, please share this with them. LewisHowes.com/231 is the link. Share it over on Twitter and Facebook as well for your friends because you never know who might be experiencing this even

• 1:04:31Lewis Howes?

  when they don't say it. And this could really help a lot of people. So please share it with your friends. And you can check out all the show notes on how to connect with Catherine, how to get her book back at LewisHowes.com/231. Make sure to follow her as well everywhere online. And I hope you guys enjoyed this. Until then, you guys know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.