15 Give and Take: The Revolutionary Path to Success with Adam Grant

What if I told you the key to success was not going after what you wanted, but helping others get what they wanted instead? Better yet, what if there was research that proved the more you gave of your time and resources willingly to others, that you'd be on your way to achieving your wildest […] Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  This is episode number 15 with Adam Grant.

• 0:07Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. Each week, we bring you the most inspiring business minds, world-class athletes, and influential celebrities on the planet to find out what makes great people great. My name is Lewis Howes, and I'm an author, lifestyle entrepreneur, and former pro athlete. And I'm on a mission to find out how we can all achieve a higher performance in life. Please leave us your comments on iTunes and join us online at schoolofgreatness.com to be notified of each episode when it comes out. Now let's get after it.

• 0:52Lewis Howes?

  Hey, what is up all you greats out there in the world? I hope you're having a fabulous, fantastic day today. And quick shout out to everyone who is listening. I just saw the stats, and there are over, there are people from over 160 countries listening in each and every week. So I appreciate all of you everywhere in the world. Obviously, the United States is getting the most amount of traction. And it looks like Texas is the biggest region. Texas and California are getting the most downloads in the US. But everywhere around the world, I appreciate you guys for listening in on the School of Greatness. It means a lot to me, and I'm excited to bring

• 1:32Lewis Howes?

  you more amazing guests each and every week. And this week, we've got an awesome guest. His name is Adam Grant. He's got a new book out called Give and Take: A Revolutionary Approach to Success. I'm gonna have him talk about this revolutionary approach to achieving your success and achieving greatness here in just a few minutes. You're not gonna want to miss it. But I want to give a quick shout out to the review of the week. And I was pretty flattered by this because, one, it was a great copy. It was great writing. But it was just, it was very flattering. Flattering. Is that a word? Flattering? Anyways, we'll say it is.

• 2:12Lewis Howes?

  Here it is. It's from My Jobs It is the name, My Jobs It. And the title is Warning. Warning, this podcast stimulates dramatic amounts of energy that can motivate anyone. Due to the intensity of this podcast, anyone looking for the extra kick once a week should climb on board. There are no age restrictions and anyone with a pulse will benefit from sudden amounts of greatness you'll feel after listening. If you've never joined this podcast, I personally recommend listening to episode number eight and prepare to take on the world after listening. Lewis Howes is absolutely amazing. I appreciate it.

• 2:54Lewis Howes?

  My Jobs It for the flattering. Why am I messing up this word? I feel like the the flat, I'm like, I am ignorant today. I don't even know how to speak. But the flattering review is what I'm going to say. I don't know why I can't figure out the word for that. But I'm gonna leave this in there. Okay, so thanks so much. If you guys haven't left a review. I'm picking out a review every week. The most flattering review every single week is going to be is going to be announced before each episode. So thanks again to My Jobs It. I just got back from New York City from a week long trip, had some exciting things happen, which I'm gonna share with you guys in the near future. I don't want to spoil it too soon.

• 3:38Lewis Howes?

  But I just got back from the Man 2.0 book launch, Engineering the Alpha book launch by John Romanello and Adam Bornstein. Had an amazing time. Some of the previous guests were on here. We had Tim Ferriss, who was there, and a lot of other great fitness experts and celebrities in the building. But if you have not checked out the previous episode, episode number 14 with the Alpha Twins. Go ahead and check that out because it's really inspiring what those guys are doing in the fitness world and I recommend their book as well. But today we've got a new topic and it's a revolutionary approach to success. And it's my man Adam Grant,

• 4:20Lewis Howes?

  who is the youngest tenured professor at the Wharton School of Business. He's been recognized as Wharton's single highest rated teacher, one of Business Week's favorite professors, and one of the world's 40 best business professors under 40. Now, previously, he was a record-setting advertising director at Let's Go Publications, an all-American springboard diver, and a professional magician. And his new book just came out. It's called Give and Take: A Revolutionary Approach to Success. And yes, it did hit number two on the New York Times Bestseller List in the first week. So this is an exciting one. I'm excited about this because

• 5:02Lewis Howes?

  Adam and I talk about our differences to leveraging LinkedIn and he has a different approach than I do. And it's interesting because in my LinkedIn book, I talk about some of the things that he covers here, but he's much smarter than me and he dives way deeper into the research and the science behind everything. You're going to learn about weak ties and strong ties. And also, the most important one that a lot of people miss out on, which is dormant ties, those dormant relationships, and how those can actually be the biggest opportunities for you. There's a lot of other things we're to be covering here in this episode, so make sure to get out a pen and paper, or just take mental notes, because this one is going to blow you away. I hope you guys enjoy this one and make sure to stick around to the

• 5:47Lewis Howes?

  very end to hear who's coming on next week and some other goodies from me. Now, let's get after this.

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  My man, how are you doing?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  I'm delighted to be here.

• 6:02Lewis Howes?

  I'm excited about this. Your name has been everywhere recently on the news and online. On the cover of, I think, New York Times Magazine. You've kind of been all over the place. I'd never actually heard about you before recently. And now I want to know everything about you. So I'm excited to bring you on here. And as we were just chatting before and as I was reading your bio, you were also an all-American athlete, springboard diver, which is pretty interesting and challenging at the same time. Diving, I think I tried it in like middle school and I could only do like a one and a half. But I could never get the, you know, the dive actually down. I could just kind of belly flop after that. So I know it's extremely challenging sport. So congrats on your success there.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Thank you. It's like anything else. You start out terrible and you practice and slowly but surely you improve. But my coach always told me that diving was a nerd sport and it didn't attract a real athlete. You can become much better than you thought because you didn't have to compete against people with an actual talent.

• 7:02Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Well, I'm sure you're extremely talented and you're also a magician, right?

• 7:08Speaker 01

  Well, I'm retired, but yeah, I used to perform as a magician.

• 7:12Lewis Howes?

  Very cool. Well, I'm sure you got to learn a lot about human psychology and the way people think and react doing that. And I think that probably gave you some good insights into your book, Give and Take, which I want to dive into actually right now. And in your book, you talk about, there's three different types of people. You talk about givers, takers, and matchers. Is that correct?

• 7:35Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 7:36Lewis Howes?

  I've been growing up in business over the last, I guess, five years now, and I've seen all these people. As you explain who givers are, who matchers are, who's taker, I've seen all these people. And the takers, you really notice really quickly because you kind of feel like this sick feeling in your stomach. You feel like, ugh, should I even talk to this person? Do I want to hang out with this person? It's kind of like this very standoffish approach to networking and to business and to relationship building. Now...

• 8:06Lewis Howes?

  Tell me more about the the matchers and the givers though, because you say everyone should be a giver. But there's two types of givers, is that right?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah. So just as a little background, the takers are these people who love to get as much as possible from others and try not to give anything back unless they absolutely have to.

• 8:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  And, you know, I think a lot of people share that experience of the the sick feeling of interacting with them or, you know, sometimes later when the takers are really good takers, getting the sick feeling after you've been burnt.

• 8:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  But, you know, the good news is, most people actually are not takers. Uh, most people fall in the middle of this spectrum there, what I call matchers, which is basically trying to keep an even balance of give and take.

• 8:51Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  So that would be quid pro quo, cat for cat, reciprocity, I help you, you help me.

• 8:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  And, uh, you know, most people think that that's a, that's a pretty good way to, to sort of protect themselves, because if you go all the way to the giver end of the spectrum and you just help other people all the time without ensuring the test, and you're going to be vulnerable to takers and you might burn yourself out. And so, you know, if you're trying to play a safe, the middle is a matcher and, and that way, you know, you keep your guard up a little bit to make sure you get things back, but you're not so selfish to be a taker.

• 9:24Lewis Howes?

  Now, is there anything wrong with being a matcher?

• 9:26Speaker 01

  No, not at all. I think most people do operate that way, at least at work, and that's what the data collected have shown over and over again. And, you know, I do think it's a very safe and reasonable way to live your life, to make sure that everything is fair and balanced and even. But I do think there are some downsides that a lot of matchers overlook. One is that if you're a matcher, you know, sometimes you create a little bit of a transactional impression. You know, people feel like, well, you know, you're only helping them because you want something back. As opposed to you really care about them and, you know, I think you miss out on some goodwill that way.

• 10:02Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  I think the other potential downside of being a match or is you might build shallower and narrower relationships because you tend to only exchange with the people that you expect can help you as opposed to you know broader range of people who could benefit from your knowledge or your connection who then you know might end up doing great things one day if you couldn't really predict it.

• 10:25Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. It's interesting. I actually um I wrote a book about LinkedIn about five years ago as I was just starting out. One of my mentors suggested getting on LinkedIn to find opportunities to connect with influential people and just to see what was available for me in the business world. And I remember when I was starting out, I'd just finished playing football, just retired from professional football and I was I had nothing to offer anyone. I didn't have a college degree yet. I didn't have you know a product, a service, uh any experience really in the business field. And I remember uh just trying to give constantly because there was nothing that I could really take from anyone. It was just a matter of uh trying to give and connect people and really listen to about their success and how they

• 11:10Lewis Howes?

  got to where they were. And I think the approach I've always kind of known, I guess in the beginning I couldn't take anything. There was nothing I could really take. So for me, I was getting a lot more from just constantly giving and not expecting anything in return. And I feel like that's what's really helped me in the long run is just constantly giving people and connecting people and trying to be helpful. Uh the more resourceful I become, I guess. And that's the approach that I feel like has really helped pay off for me. And I feel like it's going to continue to pay off by just constantly giving as opposed to thinking, oh, you know, if I do this, what are you going to do for me type of attitude? And I think the law of reciprocity is extremely powerful as um as I know you talk about and

• 11:53Lewis Howes?

  Robert Cialdini talks about in his book Influence. But you also talk about uh some givers.

• 12:01Lewis Howes?

  You know, use this law of reciprocity, but they always get walked on. Now, how can, how can the two different givers lean on the good side? I guess where they are actually getting something in return for the long haul as opposed to getting walked over? What can they do?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  That's a great question, Lewis. And, you know, I actually think you're a shining example of what to do as a giver as opposed to what traps do fall into.

• 12:25Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  So I find that there are two types of givers. One type is a purely selfless giver who puts other people first all the time. And it's so altruistic that he or she just sacrifices and timbers herself and runs out of time and energy or maybe gets taken advantage of by the takers.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  And then you have this other group of givers that's not selfish like the takers and not purely selfless. I call them otherish. You're basically, yeah, otherish, maybe a word that should never have existed, but, you know, I think it captures the idea that you can be a giver and say, look, you know, my goal is to help other people and benefit them in any way that I can. But that doesn't mean I'm going to let go of my own interests and my own ambitions and goals. And so I'm going to try to integrate the things that I want to accomplish with the things that I want to help other people accomplish. And, you know, I think a lot of it is win-win thinking, but it's also saying, look, can I help others in ways that are high value for them, but low cost for me?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  And I would actually love to hear your perspective on that because I think connecting people is one great example of that, right? It takes often just five minutes to make an introduction and two people can benefit a lot from that. Is that something you've done consciously as an example of not overextending yourself?

• 13:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I feel like, you know, that's pretty much all I could do for the first couple of years. For me, when I was connecting with people on LinkedIn. I was connecting with a lot of people because all I had was time and I wasn't doing anything else. So for about a year, I was just on LinkedIn about six hours a day, connecting with people and learning about LinkedIn and how to use it to grow a business or get a job or whatever it is people were trying to do. And as I would meet with influencers, I would say, you know, what's the biggest challenge you have currently in your business? Or what are you trying to achieve right now? And people would say, you know, I'm really looking for someone to help me increase traffic to my website or find someone who knows a lot about SEO, or I'm looking for a graphic designer, or I'm looking for a sales rep.

• 14:24Lewis Howes?

  I would say, you know, I just met like three of the best sales reps in the last three weeks. And right then and there, I would connect them with who I thought would be the best fit. If we were in person, I would just jump on the phone with the person. I would give them a call and literally hand the phone over and say, you gotta connect with this person. So I would try to make it an immediate impact. And I wouldn't expect anything in return, but I just feel like connecting people and helping them achieve their goals quickly is always going to pay off. And they would always say, you know, how can I help you in return? After they were like, after they got what they needed, they would just be like, what can I do to help?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  That's really exciting to hear. Yeah, I'm also curious if that, you know, I guess one thing that I've heard from some givers and that pops up every once in a while in the research habit is, you know, other people, especially if they themselves are not givers, if they're matchers or takers, are sort of surprised by this behavior and they don't know what to make of it.

• 15:19Lewis Howes?

  Very surprised.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can imagine, you know, some people looking at your background and saying, here's this guy, a superstar athlete who holds an NCAA record for receiving yards and, you know, who played for a national handball team. And, you know, why is he trying to help me? He must want something from me.

• 15:35Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  How do you handle that?

• 15:38Lewis Howes?

  Right, yeah, I guess that's a, I don't know, it's a good question. I think it's all in the approach on how you you work it. Because I think the matchers, you can tell when they want something in return because they will say, you know, we should do some type of joint JV deal or joint venture deal. We should, you know, partner, we should. You can be an affiliate of my products or whatever it may be. So I think you can tell right away if they're going to be a matcher. Whereas, you know, or they may follow up in the next couple of days and say, hey, will you promote me type of deal. But um, I never really do that. I'm just like, here, I'm gonna help you and connect people or lead them to a resource that could be helpful or something like that. And usually, I think the law of

• 16:20Lewis Howes?

  reciprocity is in your favor when you don't ask them for something in return. And rather, allow them to have the opportunity to say, how can I help you? And usually, when they say, how can I help you? You know, I'm pretty fine. I don't need their help right the moment. But, you know, it's nice to know that someone is willing to help me in return without, you know, without any strings attached as well.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  I love, I love that example. And, you know, it reminds me, you mentioned Robert Chaldeen a moment ago. And one of the things that he's often said is that when you help someone and they say, you know, what can I do for you? You instead of, you know, asking them for a favor back, you should say, oh, it's no big deal. I know you would do the same for me.

• 17:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  You know, sort of that almost catching them in debt a little bit. And, you know, I'm inclined, I think it's a really interesting approach, but I'm also inclined to agree with you to say, look, you know, I think the goodwill is there. And if you really need it, you know, those people are willing to help you and you don't have to sort of focus into helping you just because you've helped them.

• 17:24Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's uh, it's fun. Once you, I think for me, it's the most rewarding when you're just willing to give and give and give and not expect anything in return. But obviously, you don't want to be walked on. So if people want to keep coming back to you, if they keep asking you for favors, but then they never offer to like, just be helpful for you in return, or be resourceful, or if you do ask them a question, if they blow you off, then it's probably not the best idea to keep, you know, helping those type of individuals for the long run. But that's just my opinion.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you you end up scaling back a little bit when you encounter somebody who's been acting like a taker?

• 18:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. And for me, it's more of just like an energy feeling like I you can just feel it from them their language, their, you know, the way they're interact. But I think I just feel like most people are good in their core. And I give a lot of people the benefit of the doubt. So I think a lot of people are willing to give in return if they receive this type of, you know, giving without expectations from you. And I think eventually you're going to turn takers into givers, hopefully at some point if you do that.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  I I would hope so. You know, one of one of my favorite tests that I I guess been using a little bit lately is when when I help somebody and then, you know, they will frequently ask, you know, how can I reciprocate? I I will actually go and ask them to help somebody else that I'm trying to help.

• 18:49Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  And this is something I actually learned from Adam Ricken, the the dark chapter two of the book. And it's been really interesting. One, because, you know, it allows me to to help more people because you end up with this network of of people who want to be givers. But two, it's also a little bit of a test because you get to find out are they willing to pay it forward? And, you know, some people I think are much more generous in doing that than others. And it's it's an interesting way for me to assess, you know, how much how much time do I want to spend helping this person? By looking at how much time they want to spend helping other people.

• 19:22Lewis Howes?

  That's very interesting. I've actually never thought of that approach. However, now, let's say we did that all day long, where, you know, I would give to someone and then they say, how can I help you or return a favor? And I said, you know, go help this person or help this person. Now, does that mean you're you're basically giving up that debt card? Like, if once they pay it forward, they don't have to give you anything in return in the future ever? Or how does that work?

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Oh, that's fascinating. I hadn't thought about that.

• 19:48Lewis Howes?

  Because what if you like tell everyone else to help other people, but then all the people you've helped, you you know, you never get to promote your book or, you know, whatever else you have going on in the future? You know, who does?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny, it is something that hasn't really crossed my mind because, you know, I feel like my goal is to try to, you know, when a request comes my way, if it's something I feel like I can help with uniquely, then I try to handle it. And if not, I'm immediately looking for the person who has better expertise or, you know, the right network to try to address whatever the need is.

• 20:24Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  And, you know, I try not to focus on, you know, what would I get out of this relationship? But I think what's interesting is, I think if you do it right, what I've seen, I guess, over the past couple of years, is that you end up creating this network that kind of operates on a pay it forward norm, where, you know, you've got a community of people who have been, you know, kind of helping each other without any strings attached. And they just developed this mentality, Robert Putnam actually called it generalized reciprocity. And he says, you know, the standard reciprocity is being a match, or, you know, I help you, you help me, you know, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And it's one-to-one trading of favors. But it can actually be more efficient to say, yeah, I'll help you without expecting

• 21:08Speaker 01

  anything in return, knowing that if I do that, someone at some point is more likely to help me, because I'm sort of spreading that pay it forward principle.

• 21:16Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  And I do think that is what happens, you know, I think in a lot of cases, particularly matchers, what they do is, you know, they really can't stand to see givers go around being helpful and generous and not get rewarded for it. So they will often gossip about you positively, they will, you know, say nice things about you, spread your reputation. And, you know, I think that goodwill tends to carry over time.

• 21:42Lewis Howes?

  And what's that called, generalized reciprocity?

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, generalized reciprocity, where, you know, the whole community basically is willing to help anybody who needs it.

• 21:50Lewis Howes?

  I like that. I mean, it's kind of like the law of attraction in a sense, like the same philosophy. But for those that may not believe in it, maybe they'll believe in, you know, generalized reciprocity better. So it's cool. I like that.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a little bit of karma to it.

• 22:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  But, you know, I think it's a more patterned and maybe even more scientific version of karma, because it's not like, you know, you help people and then magically good things come back to you. But rather, you help people and then matchers want to make sure that fairness and justice exists and they try to reward you for the good deeds you've done.

• 22:23Lewis Howes?

  I like that. That's like the scientific approach to the law of attraction. I like that. Tell me about, you know, in my actually LinkedIn book, I talk about strong ties and weak ties. So it was interesting for me to read about, I was like justifying the fact that I was talking about this and about LinkedIn and how you can, you know, work your strong ties and work your weak ties and the importance of both. But you talked about something else in your book. You talked about dormant ties. And can you talk about the importance of strong ties, weak ties, and dormant ties?

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think this is one of my favorite ways to look at a network. And LinkedIn has changed my life personally and how I manage my network.

• 23:02Lewis Howes?

  It's amazing.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  And I think it's true. I know you have helped so many people figure out how to use it to build their businesses and maintain and expand their connections. And I think that when I first got into LinkedIn, I basically saw it as a way of keeping track of my strong ties, the people that I knew well and trusted. And I just liked the fact that, you know, I didn't have to check in with them, you know, every couple of weeks to find out, are you still at this job? Are you still in the city? Because they would update it and it was there. You know, and I think the real value of strong ties, if you look at the data, is they give you a lot of trust and shared perspective. And so, you know, you can keep your support on things that you might not be comfortable sharing with the wider world. You can open up a little bit. You can be vulnerable. And, you know, they're the people who really

• 23:48Speaker 01

  have your back when you need it. And in fact, if somebody's a strong tie, chances are that they are a giver toward you, even if they're not always a giver in other relationships.

• 23:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  You know, if you think of your closest buddies, it would be pretty odd if you asked them for help and they were like, what have you done for me lately?

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's the value of the strong ties. And then Mark Rendabert at Stanford, as he now has these great studies on what he calls the strength of weak ties, showing that people are actually more likely to get a job going to their acquaintances than the people they trust. And the surprise there is basically your strong ties tend to have redundant information. They tend to know the same people, the same information that you do, whereas the weak ties are traveling in different circles. You know, they get access to different opportunities and as a result, you know, they can open up leads more quickly.

• 24:38Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  In ways you might not have expected. So I think those are the relative benefits of strong and weak ties. But recently sociologists and psychologists have been wondering, could you get the best of both worlds? Could you get, you know, the trust and the familiarity of a strong tie, but also that new information from a weak tie? And that brings us to the third kind of tie, which is the dormant ties. The people you used to know, but lost touch with over the last few years.

• 25:05Lewis Howes?

  So these are like high school buddies or college, you know, friends or whatever it may be from, you know, 10, 20 years ago or something, right?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. Somebody you used to live with or work with or play on the sports team with.

• 25:17Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  And the idea here is the studies are amazing. Daniel Levin and colleagues actually asked people to reach out for advice on a dilemma or a project. And they have them either ask somebody they currently know, or they have them reconnect with the dormant ties that they had lost touch with. And they actually got more valuable advice from the dormant ties because the dormant ties had the benefit of the strong ties, which is, you know, you did have that shared perspective. So it was more comfortable. It was easier to reach out to, you know, the dormant ties than the weak ties. But they also, because they've been meeting different people and learning different things in the past few years, were able to get you more original information than the strong ties.

• 26:00Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  And, you know, I think, I think it's really powerful, right? To say we all have dormant ties in our network. And when we reconnect with them, they may actually be more credible sources of help and advice than our closest and most trusted chance contact and than our acquaintance.

• 26:16Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy, right? And I wonder if there's something else, maybe you know, like there was other science or research about this, about reconnecting with dormant ties. If there's some type of allure or like curiosity factor for when you get reconnected, that they really want to over-help, they really want to relearn what you're up to and say, you know, I kind of knew you when and really kind of help you out now type of deal. I'm not sure. Is there anything, any research behind that as well?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I think the research on dormant ties is very new, so we're just, we're just learning about them.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  And I think that, you know, I would say, you know, anecdotally from experience, I think one of the things that's interesting about dormant ties that a lot of us overlook is, you know, people come in and you can do this if you take executives, for example, Lemon and colleagues actually make this an assignment when they teach executives how to manage their networks better. They actually make them go out and reactivate some dormant connection. And there's always an executive in the room who groans and is like, but these ties are dormant for a reason. Why would I re-fore- be connected?

• 27:21Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  The point is, is you know well, that, you know, most dormant ties actually are not people that we intentionally lost touch with. We got busy, we moved, we chased jobs. And I think that oftentimes the conversation is deeper and more meaningful than the people you talk to every day because you get to catch up on these really significant life events. You get to find out how things have changed in the past couple of years or even a decade. And, you know, there's a chance to really sort of rekindle the relationship by supporting each other in a way that, you know, just kind of happens more day to day in smaller doses with the people you know well.

• 27:56Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Has that been your experience as well?

• 27:58Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I'll tell you what, man, I have a recent experience in the last couple of weeks. Uh, my freshman year in, in college, I was playing football at a, a school in, in Minnesota. And I was good friends with one of these seniors, another receiver, you know, friend of mine. We went on a road trip to, you know, South Dakota, the Black Hills and saw Mount Rushmore. We, we went fishing, we went all, we did all these different fun things with a few of us receivers. Now, I left that school after my first semester. I, I played football there for a semester and then I left for a number of reasons. The school actually burnt down. The main building burnt down and I was just miserable there. So I left, went to another school and... Really didn't get connected for the last 10 years. I haven't spoken to this guy.

• 28:43Lewis Howes?

  We reconnected on Facebook, actually. And we were just kind of like chatting, texting every now and then, saying, hey, how's it going? This and that. And the more we started to connect, you know, he sent me this really amazing, inspiring, personal video. Just talking about all the different things, just him in front of a camera out in the woods, talking about all the different experiences that he remembered about our relationship on the football team, outside of the football team. Just the fun times we had, and it made me think of all the cool stuff we did that I completely forgot about. And it reconnected that kind of bond and that experience with him. And now we're planning to meet up in a few months. Uh, when I'm traveling to go, you know, near in the city he's in and it's just cool to reconnect with people and I'm not expecting anything out of it. I'm not expecting him to, you know,

• 29:27Lewis Howes?

  give me anything, but it's just cool to reconnect from a dormant tie and have that amazing bond and hear what's happened over the last 10 years.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  That's really my favorite part is, you know, I think if you leave aside sort of the idea that they do often prove helpful in ways that we probably didn't anticipate. I, I just, you know, I, I think that a lot of times you really miss these people and you know, you have an experience that reminds you of, you know, what it was like to be on a team together or, you know, a conversation that you had a long time ago. Or, you know, kind of the role that person played in your life. And then, you know, the idea of getting back in touch, I think, uh, really for me, it's often very nostalgic, but it's also a a way to sort of pick up where we left off and, and try to carry the relationship forward. And I, I, I've, uh, this is, this is a really dorky way of, of applying research to life, which is, uh, one of my bad habits.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  But I have a, I have a repeating reminder in my calendar that once a month reconnect with one dormant tie and it's just, you know, they make sure that I don't, I don't miss out on that opportunity. And it's always something that I look forward to.

• 30:33Lewis Howes?

  That's really interesting. I gotta start doing that more. Uh, let me, let me ask you a question about this. I want to transition to LinkedIn a little bit more here. Um, do you connect with everyone on LinkedIn who invites you to connect with them?

• 30:48Speaker 01

  No, uh, you know, it's, it's been interesting, actually, since, uh, the New York Times story had and, and so many other lists we came out. I, I've gotten just a slew of LinkedIn requests from strangers.

• 30:59Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  And while I was doing research for the book, I, I read about, uh, this group that you know about much longer than I have, the, the LinkedIn open networkers who will connect with anyone. And you know, I thought a lot about that and I loved the idea behind it, but at the same time, I also feel like I have a responsibility to protect the people in my network against takers.

• 31:18Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  And you know, somebody, if you're a stranger, it's hard for me to make those judgments. And so what I've been doing lately is I've actually been looking at, first of all, do we have a common connection?

• 31:27Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  And then secondly, have they given a good explanation for why they want to connect? Or, you know, should they just send a blind request with, with no account? And, you know, I'm pretty wary of accepting the ones that are not sort of, here's who I am, here's why I don't like getting in touch.

• 31:43Lewis Howes?

  Now, now I have to, I'm gonna, I'm gonna challenge you for a second on this, because I have a different approach. So, it's no right or wrong, but I, I feel like that it is important to connect with everyone who, who sends you a request. And I'll give you my theory. A lot of people, and I think this kind of, you'll, you'll, for me, it makes sense, especially with your dormant, weak and strong tie, uh, approach, because now your, your fear was that you feel that you don't want people that you have no clue who they are, that they're gonna take from your trusted network, is that right?

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 32:22Lewis Howes?

  Now, how, my question is, how are they gonna take from your trusted network by connecting with you on LinkedIn?

• 32:28Speaker 01

  That's a good question. Here's, here's my gut reaction. And I, I realize this is, this is probably going to be a situation where I end up convinced that I am wrong and you are right.

• 32:38Lewis Howes?

  There's no right or wrong, I'm just trying to open your mind to what I've been doing, that's all.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  I, I, I stand prepared to adjust my approach at any moment, but, but my, my intuition so far has been this. So, one of, one of the things that, uh, I guess, sort of unusual about my network is, I, I have, you know, my, obviously, friends, colleagues, you know, family members.

• 32:59Lewis Howes?

  Yep.

• 33:00Speaker 01

  And then former students. And the former students in my network, the ones that know well, of course, are the ones who have taken a, a class or multiple classes over semesters with me.

• 33:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  But I also I teach these day long executive courses where, you know, a couple hundred people a month will come into the classroom and they will, they will, you know, sort of sit with me for half a day or a day. And then we stay in touch on LinkedIn and to rack up thousands and thousands of these, it's just hard to keep track of who's who.

• 33:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  And the way that I tend to use my LinkedIn network most is actually when a student comes to me for career advice or looking for a contact at a company, going through my network and basically trying to find someone who can help them.

• 33:45Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  And my work is that I will mistake a stranger for somebody who's actually had one of my classes, you know, who I I met very briefly, you know, enough that I felt comfortable bringing them into my network.

• 33:56Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  And, you know, I want to be truthful to refer my students to people that I think will give them good advice.

• 34:00Lewis Howes?

  That makes sense. That definitely is a respectable answer. I guess my only, my only, I guess, my thought is, and maybe it's different because you're a professor. But for most people on LinkedIn, they have a job or they're looking for a better job or they're a business owner or something like that is what I tend to find. And for me, I hear a lot of people, you know, there's three different types of people. There's people that I connect with everyone. There's people that only connect with their strong ties on LinkedIn and they only want to have, you know, a hundred to three hundred or whatever it may be of these strong ties, everyone they already know.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:41Lewis Howes?

  And when I, when they tell me that they only connect to their strong ties, I say, well, you're missing out on the dormant, well, the dormant and weak ties. Cause what about the people that you only met for twenty seconds at a networking event? Um, but they, you know, maybe they can open up to you more opportunities than a strong tie because those are the people in your circle, like just like everything you talk about in your book. So I suggest that everyone connect with everyone who reaches out to you. Not saying to like, you know, spam a bunch of people and get just to have connections, but people who find you, whether it be online or you connect in person, or they research about you, or they read your book and they want to add you. That's an inbound relationship in my mind.

• 35:22Lewis Howes?

  And by connecting with that person, you never know what type of opportunity they can bring you for your business. So you never know who they're related to at, you know, this company that you want to do business with or get an introduction to. You never know, and maybe they're a big fan of yours from afar and would be willing to help. So for me, I take the approach to connect with everyone. Now, a lot of people say, well, I don't want them poaching my leads or, you know, reaching out to connect with my connections who I really value and trust. And people won't really do that and they can't do that. If they're going to send you introductions to or requests to introduce to other people in your network, you can just say, you can just not respond. You can just say, I don't feel comfortable doing this because we haven't met in person yet, or something like that. But there's no way that they can really, you know,

• 36:08Lewis Howes?

  poach your connections, except for the way you explain it where, you know, you may be mistaken for who they were or who they are and things like that. But I feel like that might be rare occasion that that's going to happen. So that's my only, my only, you know, thoughts on that. But I feel like especially for business on LinkedIn exactly is, the more people you connect to, the larger your expanded network becomes. So your second and third degree network. And that's powerful for business professionals because when people are typing in a keyword, let's say professor, or they're, they're looking for a sales coach or web designer or something like that. If you only have a hundred connections, you're not going to rank high for keywords on the search results for those keywords on LinkedIn.

• 36:52Lewis Howes?

  But if you have a, a larger network, then you're going to be found much more easily for people. So for business professionals, I suggest that connect with everyone so they can be found more easily and get more leads that way. But that's just my, my thoughts.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  That makes a lot of sense and you're making me realize that what I actually need is just a better system for managing who's who.

• 37:15Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. I mean, yeah.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Like basically creating, you know, some different groups of, you know, okay, here are strangers who reach out, here are people that I've talked, here are people that, you know, I actually know in a meaningful way.

• 37:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I mean, again, it's, it might be a little more work, it might be more confusing for a while, but also another benefit to LinkedIn is the more connections you have, you can export that into, you know, a database, you can export all those first degree connections and receive their email addresses. And so you could use that to connect with them elsewhere down the line. Uh, so there's just, you know, there's little benefits to connecting with everyone, but definitely people have the same hesitation, they don't want to be introducing people they don't know, or they don't really know at all. So I understand that, but I feel like the benefits to connecting with everyone and learning a system on how to manage the people you don't know is outweighs, you know, just connecting with people you do know. So that's my thoughts.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  You make, you make a very persuasive case.

• 38:17Lewis Howes?

  Well, we'll see, but uh, that's just, that's what's worked for me, that's all I know. Now, now let's talk about, let's talk about personal branding. What's your thoughts on kind of self-promotion and personal branding?

• 38:32Speaker 01

  It's a fascinating topic that I am always ambivalent about. Yeah, I, I think there's a very fine line between creating a, a brand that actually allows you to, you know, attract attention, gain leads, bring in business, make connections, and self-promoting in a way that makes you appear like a taker.

• 38:53Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  I, I think it's, it's always easier to have other people promote you than to promote yourself. And, you know, but I, I don't think everybody has that luxury. And, you know, especially in situations where you're, you're meeting somebody face to face and they're not going to have a chance to, to hear about you from somebody else in that moment. Yeah, I, I think you create a, a big dilemma and. I think that probably I I would like to see most of us do a combination of two things. One is, you know, to to be clear about a key a few objective facts or accomplishments, you know, that are hugely verified. Which, you know, I think are are if you look at the research on self-promotion, they're less likely to be pursued negatively.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  You know, if you say, hey, I I accomplished this and you have the data to back it up, it's a lot more credible than if you say, hey, so, you know, I am the greatest networker you will ever meet.

• 39:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  You know, and and you know, and then the second thing is, I think that um most people feel like they have to self-promote in in ways that make them seem, you know, just just sort of flawless or perfect. And I think that that really overlooks the importance of vulnerability for human connection. And I think that that self-promotion should often be coupled with, you know, some commentary on weaknesses or, you know, an embarrassing story or a humbling experience.

• 40:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Allows you to just sort of show the full range of who you are.

• 40:18Lewis Howes?

  Right, so so give me an example, so I so for me, I could say something like, yeah, you know, I I played professional football, I did this, I did this in sports. But I was never good enough to make the NFL because I was too slow and I wasn't strong enough, so it wasn't really that big a deal. Is that would that be an example or?

• 40:35Speaker 01

  I think it's a great example, because I think, yeah, obviously, it it shows that you're incredibly talented and hardworking, but it also shows some real humility. And I think that, you know, that that generally, if you look at the data, that tends to build trust.

• 40:47Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  My my my version of that when uh I ended up writing about this in in chapter five of Given Take. Uh, I was that I was asked when I was twenty five to teach a group of air force colonels who were about twice my age. And I went in and thought I had to be, you know, really confident and, you know, sort of make my credentials clear because otherwise they weren't going to listen to me. And, you know, so I talked about my training and, you know, all the research I'd done and it was it was not, by the way, at all comfortable for what kind of a person I had. But, you know, I was like, I I thought that's what I had to do. And I I remember reading the the feedback forums and all the comments were were unpleasant, but one in particular was burned in my brain. One of the guys wrote, there was more knowledge in the audience than on the podium.

• 41:33Lewis Howes?

  That's funny.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I walked out of that realizing, you know, I I needed to do something to, you know, to to be much more humble and open and vulnerable and and connect with the audience. Instead, I I type the next group and I type the exact same material, but this time I opened my saying, look, I'm Adam. I know what you guys are thinking right now. What can I possibly learn from a professor who's 12 years old?

• 41:57Speaker 01

  And then, you know, they just sat there and stared at me for a minute. I was like, oh, God, this bomb.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  And then they started laughing. One of the guys says, no, no, that's way off. I'm sure you're at least 13. And it it really just broke the ice. You know, I think they they called out the elephant in the room and, you know, they they realized that I didn't think that I was superior to them, but that we, you know, they had experience and I had some different knowledge and we were going to try to learn from each other. And they they walked away from the session, you know, much more enthusiastic and getting more out of it. And I think that that is very similar probably to the way that you you tell your story about your athletic career.

• 42:30Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. That's, yeah, I mean, there's a, I think there's a fine line between self, you know, personal branding and sharing about who you are, but also having the humility. And I think the more humble you are, uh, maybe not just tearing your down, yourself down so much, but just giving people a little vulnerability as well, makes them really trust you more and make you more likeable, which is also, you know, a key part of influence. Robert Couding, his influence. Um, so, yeah, I agree with that.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  And, you know, it reminds me also, I I think a lot of people, you know, when they're trying to figure out, okay, how do I be open? How do I reveal my weaknesses? To your point, they do push it too far. You know, they end up talking about their worst failures in a way that makes you wonder, is this person going to be good at their job?

• 43:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  You know, I think the safe thing to do is, you know, is to be humble on, you know, dimensions that are are not confidence relevant. My, uh, my favorite example of this was was an old story from Abraham Lincoln. Uh, he was in a debate at one point in his career, and he, uh, the the opponent accused him of being two-faced.

• 43:36Speaker 01

  And Lincoln, without even skipping a beat, said, "You call me Two-Face. Do you really think if I had another face that I would wear this one?"

• 43:47Speaker 01

  You know, obviously, you know, a very quick wit, but also somebody who recognized, you know, that he did not have the most conventionally attractive appearance. And that, you know, poking a little fun of himself on that was a great way to connect with his audience. You know, without at all calling into a question, what kind of leader and president you would be.

• 44:05Lewis Howes?

  Right. Yeah, that's very interesting. Wow. Now, who are some of the, the famous givers and famous takers out there? That you can, through your, you know, research, say, this person became very powerful through giving? Or this person, you know, was powerful but fell from the top because he was only a taker? Are there experiences like that? Are people you can recognize like that?

• 44:32Speaker 01

  I think so. You know, I think that the success, the successful takers who fell from grace are, are the easy ones to spot. You know, so you, you think of every major corporate scandal that's happened in the last decade or so. And, you know, you think of Ken Lay from Enron, you think of Dennis Zelazski from Tyco, having his multi-billion dollar birthday party for his wife on a private island on the company's time.

• 44:55Lewis Howes?

  Crazy.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  You know, you, you, you think about Bernie Madoff, floundering lots of investors. Uh, you know, I think, I think those are extreme acts of taking that, you know, fell into the category of unethical and, and certainly illegal as well. Uh, you know, but I think, I think there are a lot of ordinary acts of taking that, you know, that are a little bit less visible. You know, with what interest be, uh, as, as you know, in chapter three, I was just writing about Frank Lloyd Wright, the, the famous architect, and Jonas Salk, uh, the inventor of the polio vaccine. And you know, I think that they're both widely celebrated for their accomplishments. But I think that both have had some taker moments in their past that that actually jeopardized some of their success.

• 45:39Speaker 01

  And Frank Lloyd Wright's kid, uh, he went through about a nine-year period where he hardly finished a single building. Wow. And it was more or less because he thought that he could do it all alone and he moved out into the wilderness and didn't take any of his great apprentices with him. And then he had a hard time getting his apprentices on board when he finally realized he needed them because he insisted that even if he didn't work on a project, that his name had to be signed first on every document. Oh, my gosh. Otherwise, he'd say it was a forgery. Uh, you know, and obviously that that didn't build a lot of trust and respect. Right. And, you know, and then Jonas Salk, when he, uh, when he successfully created the polio vaccine, polio vaccine, there was a big announcement and he got to give his, his

• 46:21Speaker 01

  thank you speech and she didn't recognize the six key people in his lab or the Nobel Prize winning scientists who did the work that made the vaccine possible. And he was more or less shunned by a lot of the scientific community. Wow. For it. So he just took full credit? Yeah. And, you know, it was one of those things where he had the opportunity to set the record straight over, I want to say forty years after that and never really did. And, you know, just thought his colleagues were really jealous, but. Wow. You know, I, what I got really interested in is why, why would somebody do that, especially somebody with such a humanitarian passion for, you know, sharing the world of polio? And it breaks down to what I call, uh, I end up calling the responsibility bias. Uh, there's all this research showing that people overestimate their own contributions

• 47:05Speaker 01

  to a marriage or to a work team relative to what others think they've done. And a lot of people think that's because, you know, you have a big ego and you want to sort of see yourself in the most flattering light. But it's actually less of that. Mike Ross and his colleagues show that it's more about information that you literally know more about your own contributions than other people's because, you know, in a marriage, for example, you were there when you took out the garbage and drove the kids to school. And, you know, you weren't there for all the stuff your spouse did and same thing goes for your work team. And I, I think that that happened a little bit to Jonas Salk, right? He wasn't there every moment that his lab was working. He remembered his own blood, sweat, tears. Right. Those are, I think, some examples of takers. Are there any takers who stand out for you before we look at the gimmick side?

• 47:51Lewis Howes?

  Uh, all I can think is just personal people that I know as opposed to famous people. But, uh, you know, probably like someone like a Pete Rose, maybe like a sports person. I would assume he'd be like more of a taker. Is that right?

• 48:05Speaker 01

  That's interesting because of gambling?

• 48:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Well, I think, I think it's like the people that, that do stuff and then they lie about it or they deny it. You know, or steroid, you know, steroid users or maybe like even a Lance, uh, Lance Armstrong might be a taker. Even though you, you know, maybe I'm wrong, but you know, he gave so much half a billion dollars in, in research to cancer. Maybe it was even more, but then, you know, lied about certain things for years and years. So I don't know what, what that category that goes under.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  That's very interesting in some ways that's being very literally a taker.

• 48:39Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  But yeah, I think, I, I, I think actually that's, that's a really nice way to look at it. That, you know, in, in some ways what a giver is usually going to try to do is, is what's the, the best interest of the group. And so, you know, if you, if you look at professional sports, what, what we typically see, you know, among the givers are those who are willing to put the needs of the team above, you know, their own. You know, like I, I would think of the, the players who are willing to, to play sort of the, the less glamorous roles, right? So, you know, the rebounder in basketball, the, the linebackers in football.

• 49:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, right.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  And, you know, I think that, that what you see among the takers is this sense of, well, you know, I'm going to bend the rules. And I'm going to, to do things that might be illegal to give myself an unfair advantage.

• 49:26Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  So what about on the giver's side? Are there, are there some, some either business people or athletes who have impressed you as being very generous or helpful?

• 49:33Lewis Howes?

  You know, my mentor, Stuart Jenkins, I've got a few mentors, but, uh, he's, he's one of the early on ones who, he's the VP of Innovation at Deckers. And he's constantly collaborating with, you know, any organization he's at, he's always collaborating, giving credit back. He's never just taking full credit and he's always willing to pay it forward. So for me, just a, a personal connection, he's one of them for sure. Um, trying to think of just famous people, but he's, uh, he's definitely one of them. Now, what about Steve Jobs? Is he, was he, you know, a giver or a taker? I'm assuming he was a giver, but.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  I think it's, it's so complicated. It's always hard to judge people when you, when you never met them.

• 50:12Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  I think that a lot of people, I, I, I've interviewed some people who worked with and for Steve Jobs. And I think the most common reaction has been that he was a really interesting and unusual mix of giver and taker.

• 50:25Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the giver part was the complete impatience with any product that wasn't truly useful to people.

• 50:34Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  You know, it's sort of, it's just an incredibly intense passion for creating the best products that would allow people to connect, to get work done, to share information, to be entertained. I think on the other hand, excuse me, I think that, you know, there are some people who, you know, who worked with him who said, look, you know, the, the guy could be a bull in a china shop.

• 50:56Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  You know, and, and when he was on, on a mission, you know, don't get in his way.

• 51:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  And, you know, I think that it all intersects, you know, I think that he's, if you didn't reading the, the Isaacson biography, you know, it does seem like he was a little bit of a taker in his relationship with Steve Wozniak. You know, when they, when they started at Apple and Woz was, was much more of a giver and, you know, willing to stay in the shadows and let Jobs play more of the credit and, you know, and you wonder was, was that actually a part of, of Jobs' success? To surround himself with givers or, you know, did he succeed in, in spite of the fact, you know, that, that he had these taker moments? But I, I, I think it's really hard to say, you know, I think he was, that he was obviously a, a true genius. And maybe the giver taker spectrum is, is just the wrong dimension on which to evaluate.

• 51:45Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly, exactly. Well, who are some, who are some big givers that people do know about in your mind?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I think, I think there are, there are a lot of really great examples. Uh, you know, one of, one of my favorites that I've read about a little bit was John Hudson Senior, who is, is probably known by most of the world as the father of the recent presidential candidate Hudson Junior.

• 52:09Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Uh, Hudson Senior originally worked for the Nixon administration and actually got out when he was asked to do some, you know, some sort of early stage preliminary wiretapping heads and activities. And said, you know, no, this, this is not something I'm willing to do. And he, he started a container company that, that grew to become the world's most lucrative chemical firm.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  And if you if you look at interviews with him from early in his life, he said, you know, I wanted to become successful and wealthy so that I could give more back. And I think what's really interesting about his story is that a lot of us assume that the way to become a giver is that to succeed first, accumulate wealth, and then, you know, you can become a philanthropist. You can, you know, if you rise high enough at the corporate ladder, you can become a great mentor. And I think Hudson did it the other way. He said, I'm going to actually give first, and that's going to be one of my paths of success.

• 53:10Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  And, you know, he he will say, if you look at his interviews, that, you know, his motivation to accumulate all this wealth was was basically to be able to help as many people as possible. And I think he's done it in some extraordinary ways. You know, one would be he's one of, I believe, nineteen people on earth who have ever given away more than a billion dollars.

• 53:28Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  And a couple of years ago, when the financial market tanked, he he wasn't able to fulfill his commitment to charitable donations that he had promised. And he actually took out a personal loan so that he could deliver on all of those promises.

• 53:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 53:46Speaker 01

  He's got actually a fascinating book called Winners Never Cheat, where one of the stories he tells is that he's negotiating a merger and acquisition with another CEO whose wife had just passed away due to cancer.

• 53:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  And the Hudson family has had a lot of very sad experiences with cancer. And Hudson just said, you know, he really emphasized the guy. He didn't want to sort of fight anymore, and he just agreed to the deal on a handshake when he could have clawed another two hundred million dollars out of it. And just did things like that his whole career that people would say financially made no sense. And yet, to your personal brand point, I think it built him an incredible reputation. You know, he's known as the man of impeccable integrity, where people will do business with him on a handshake because they really trust him.

• 54:31Lewis Howes?

  Right. That's interesting. Now, would you would you agree that your network is your net worth?

• 54:37Speaker 01

  I think so. Yeah, I think that there are so many people who who believe in the saying, it's not what you know, it's do you know? And I, I think that that's more true today than it, than it's been in a long time. You know, given that the world has gotten so much more connected.

• 54:53Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  You know, we, we talked about LinkedIn, you know, obviously, social media has allowed us to, to stay in touch, to get back in touch with those dormant ties, uh, but also to track other people's reputations that they're strangers through common connections, you're, you're following them on Twitter and so on. And yeah, I think the other thing is organizations have also gotten more networked.

• 55:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Globalization, you know, it's meant that we can chat with people in different places in easier ways. We can travel a lot more and, you know, obviously, communication technologies are a big part of that. But we also have seen a rise in the use of Teams and the, the amount of service work that you've done in organizations. So people have more interdependent collaborators, they have more clients and customers and suppliers, probably than they've in the past, and I think that our network's more important than they ever were before.

• 55:40Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. Well, I don't want to give away all of your secrets because I know you've got a lot more goodies in the book. So I want everyone to make sure they go out and grab Give and Take by Adam Grant. And I appreciate your time and the conversation. It's, it's been fun connecting with you and learning more about all of this. Now, where can people best find you or connect with you online? Is it giveandtake.com?

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, giveandtake.com is the best place to go. A couple of things on the website that I put up, try to make as useful as possible. What is the self-assessment that you can take to figure out whether you think most often like a giver, a taker, or a matcher? Although, yeah, always take self-assessments with a grain of salt. But there's also a 360 assessment on the site, uh, you do all these for free, where you can email anyone in your network or connect with them on Facebook and ask them to rate you anonymously.

• 56:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  And then find out how often you're seen by the people in your network as a giver, taker, or matcher.

• 56:37Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  There's a bunch of articles and videos and my favorite feature there is a nominate a giver feature where one of my sort of disappointments over the last few years is that even in organizations where givers succeed, the successful takers tend to be more visible because they're going to claim the credit and hog in the spotlight. And this is just a small way of you can write a little paragraph to nominate and recognize somebody you know who's been helpful and generous and we're going to feature one of those people a week on this site and you can go and vote for them.

• 57:08Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  G2take.com has all that and then the LinkedIn and Twitter and Facebook pages as well.

• 57:14Lewis Howes?

  Very cool. I like that. I like that as well. Well, Adam, I appreciate it, my man. If there's anything I can do ever to help, please let me know. This is my paying for it. And we'll, uh, we'll make sure to stay in touch, man. Thanks so much.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Well, at the risk of sounding cheesy, I would, I would love to be helpful in any way I can and it's been a pleasure to talk with you and thank you for having me.

• 57:41Lewis Howes?

  And there you have it, guys. Another inspiring and educational guest here on the School of Greatness. Now make sure to head over to schoolofgreatness.com for all of these show notes. I'm going to be linking up a lot of the different things that Adam talks about. There's going to be some videos and a link to his book as well. Make sure to check that out. If you have any requests for future guests, feel free to shoot me a tweet at Twitter, at Lewis Howes, and let me know who you'd like to have on or who you'd like to make an introduction to. Other than that, guys, I hope you enjoy this one. Next week's guest is a good friend of mine and very inspiring guy, Ben Neptun, who is host of The Buried Life on MTV.

• 58:24Lewis Howes?

  So make sure to tune back in for the next episode as this one is going to blow you away from some of the stories that Ben is going to share with you. With that, guys, thanks again for checking in today and make sure to do something great.