1018 The Spiritual Guide to Inner Peace, Mastering Grief & Understanding God w/Rob Bell

“Consciousness is the great mystery at the heart of the human experience and it’s the endless black box for science.”Former pastor, speaker, and best-selling author, Rob Bell joins Lewis for a deeply profound conversation on today's podcast. Named in Time Magazine's Top 100 Most Influential People in the World, Rob Bell discusses the importance of being a witness to your life, the tools for better communication, the nature of the universe, his new book, "Everything is Spiritual," and so much more! Read Rob’s book: Everything is SpiritualCheck out Rob’s Podcast: The RobCastVisit Rob’s website: https://www.robbell.comCheck out the last podcast with Rob: https://lewishowes.com/484 Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna ask you a question you probably don't like answering.

• 0:04Lewis Howes?

  Now I'm like, let's do this question. Is there a God? What is God? I feel like people always want to know what this answer is.

• 0:15Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 0:38Lewis Howes?

  British writer Alan Watts once said, "You are a function of what the whole universe is doing in the same way that a wave is a function of what the whole ocean is doing." An American astronomer and author Carl Sagan wrote, "Science is not only compatible with spirituality, it is a profound source of spirituality." My guest today has decades of wisdom and curiosity about spirituality, human experience, and the nature of the universe, and is one of my personal favorites to have on the show, is a dear friend of mine, someone I care deeply about. I appreciate his wisdom and just love our friendship. Rob Bell is a speaker, former pastor, bestselling author of many books.

• 1:22Lewis Howes?

  Time Magazine named him one of the most 100 influential people in the world, and he's the author of the latest book, Everything is Spiritual. And we always have deeply profound conversations, but I'm telling you, this one is a game changer. And in this episode, we discuss the nature of the universe and the human experience, how to spiritually evolve to find joy and love in difficult and painful situations, communicating with people that disagree, this is huge for right now, the spiritual tools to handle any adversity in life, why you have to talk about what you've never talked about, how grief and imagination are so closely related, when to create boundaries with friends and family,

• 2:06Lewis Howes?

  and I ask him a big question, what is God? Make sure to share this with someone who needs to hear it while you're listening, and a quick reminder to subscribe to the School of Greatness over on Apple Podcast, and leave us a rating and review as well. Okay, after this quick message, the one and only Rob Bell, greatness.

• 2:29Lewis Howes?

  Welcome everyone back to the School of Greatness podcast. Super pumped for my man Rob Bell in the house. Air Pound.

• 2:35Rob Bell?

  Covid fist bumps.

• 2:37Lewis Howes?

  So glad you're here, man.

• 2:38Rob Bell?

  Over the top of face masks.

• 2:39Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. So glad you're here, man.

• 2:41Rob Bell?

  It's so good to see you.

• 2:42Lewis Howes?

  I think this is our fourth or fifth interview together.

• 2:44Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 2:44Lewis Howes?

  We've done probably three in the past.

• 2:46Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 2:46Lewis Howes?

  Every time someone asks me, who is your favorite or some of your favorite guests, I have to reference you. You're always in my top like.

• 2:54Rob Bell?

  Oh, man, Lewis.

• 2:55Lewis Howes?

  Of course Kobe is my favorite and I've had some other big names that I've always wanted to have, but you came into my life when I was just like needing more spiritual grounding and a compass to keep me on the right track and also just to like answer questions that I had about life. And I feel like every time you come on, I get more and more clear and less clear at the same time.

• 3:19Rob Bell?

  Oh, good.

• 3:20Lewis Howes?

  Because spirituality and the universe.

• 3:23Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 3:23Lewis Howes?

  Is hard to understand.

• 3:25Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah. That's the thing about, that's the thing about actual mystery. Mystery isn't something you can't know. Mystery is something you can know endlessly. So for a lot of people, they bump into mystery and they're like, that just seems, it's just all fuzzy woo woo, whatever. Oh, no, no, no, no. Love, the nature of the cosmos, the depth of the human heart. These are great mysteries, but you, you can actually know them. It's just a different kind of knowing. It's like a bottomless infinite knowing.

• 3:54Lewis Howes?

  What's, what's the mystery that you still don't know?

• 3:58Rob Bell?

  I mean, think about you, like the first time we met and talked. I remember in that interview, oh, he's asking questions because he's a good interviewer because he has a show and he's building a whole thing here, but he's into this.

• 4:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:13Rob Bell?

  He's not just asking, he's asking. I remember that.

• 4:16Lewis Howes?

  For me?

• 4:16Rob Bell?

  Yeah. There was a deep knowing you were after. And, and right, right away I was like, oh, I didn't know your background, but I was like, oh, there's a whole history here. I remember sensing Louis probably came up through some world that gave him some vision of the world, because most people, well, all of us, we came up through a tribe,

• 4:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 4:37Rob Bell?

  through a subculture, through a family system, business, academic, sports, whatever, that gave us a way to navigate the world. But then you go out and become who you're becoming, and some of that works, but some of it doesn't.

• 4:53Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:54Rob Bell?

  So there's this ancient pattern of orientation, disorientation, reorientation.

• 5:01Lewis Howes?

  And I feel like every season of life, you're going through the same pattern.

• 5:04Rob Bell?

  You're often doing this. When I first met you, I remember thinking, ah, yeah, Louis is like, there's a bunch of things that he was handed that don't work anymore. So he sort of like tossed those. But his heart is open and his mind is engaged. I remember that thinking, so he's looking, okay, so how do you think about, even like the word God, which essentially means ultimate reality. And oftentimes, people think of the word God as like a religious term, which is, it's much more helpful to think about it, like, what is the nature of this universe that we call home? Like, what's the thing behind the thing behind the thing?

• 5:38Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 5:38Rob Bell?

  What's the source? Because people are always talking about God, they just use different words for it. But I remember you were asking all those sorts of questions.

• 5:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:46Rob Bell?

  Like, is it a place of love, generosity, hope? Are we going to be okay? Or is it a cold, dark, lonely place where you might as well just throw some elbows and fight for your peace and see what happens?

• 5:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Something I love about your message in one of our interviews, I deeply remember, in one of the interviews we did, you saying something about, you know, the universe is 13 billion years old, and there's so much dark matter.

• 6:12Rob Bell?

  Yes.

• 6:12Lewis Howes?

  Unknown, darkness, scary, crazy things, and we would actually not exist without the dark matter.

• 6:19Rob Bell?

  Isn't that like, yeah, scientists are like, basically 4% of the universe is sort of known. And 96% of it, black holes, dark matter, dark energy, and we kind of have a vague sense, even the best scientists are like, we kind of have a sense of what that is. We just know that it's somehow integral to the life of the universe. And then you talk to most of us who have dark matter, regrets, mistakes, things we would have done differently, things we're like, please don't bring that up. And yet, it's the engine of life. It's how you grow, it's how you expand, how your consciousness awakens is generally the tough stuff.

• 6:58Lewis Howes?

  So we need the tough stuff in order to grow, expand, live, and understand what the 4% of beauty is.

• 7:06Rob Bell?

  Well, think about like, you're at dinner, like you're at a dinner party and there's some guy named Chuck at the end of the table and he's like, I was always pretty awesome. And then I tried some other stuff and I was good at that too. And then I started to branch out and I was pretty sweet at that. Get that guy, right? Get that guy, that's, well, so boring. But this person over here is like, yeah, I fell face down three times. I lost all my money. I tried some other stuff. Okay, now this is somebody. It's like the ache is actually what draws us to each other.

• 7:35Lewis Howes?

  Where we connect.

• 7:35Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 7:36Lewis Howes?

  How does someone in your position, who has been a spiritual guide for so many, for so many years, and this has been your path, your path and your mission, how does someone like you handle adversity when it comes now? Or do you not even see adversity as actually a bad thing? Or something that knocks you off track? Like, how do you actually

• 7:57Rob Bell?

  You have a great question.

• 7:58Lewis Howes?

  Stay at a level of grounded spiritual peace when it hits you?

• 8:03Rob Bell?

  Honestly, now, a good chunk of the time, I start smiling. Anger, rage, like something where I was like, what was I thinking? Why did I fire off that email?

• 8:18Rob Bell?

  The real art is to witness to it. Oh, look, there's, I'm angry, and then there's, oh, look, anger.

• 8:29Rob Bell?

  So the problem is for most people adversity, they identify, the adversity becomes everything.

• 8:37Rob Bell?

  But the real art of a spiritual vision for life is you're learning how to witness to it. Oh, look, this person gets under my skin. Why? In like a supernatural way. Like in the book, I talk about, so, so you can just let, you can, you can have it be parts, division. I want nothing to do with that person because they walk in the room and my blood boils. Or all parts exist within a greater whole. This person is my teacher. So there's some reason why they get under my skin. Why they provoke me. Why they can just set me off like that. What is it? What are they here to teach me?

• 9:19Rob Bell?

  But yeah, adversity, like even this past half year with lockdown and there are days that are just, what the? I wake up in the morning, take the dog for a walk and I'm like, what are we?

• 9:31Lewis Howes?

  What's happening in this world?

• 9:33Rob Bell?

  Right, like your head is just spinning. So I just go, okay, hold on, take a deep breath, witness to it.

• 9:40Rob Bell?

  And then remember that you'll have everything you need for the day, when you need it. The only place you can ever be is here.

• 9:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Rob Bell?

  The only thing that goes on forever is now.

• 9:50Lewis Howes?

  You can't think about the future too much, yeah.

• 9:52Rob Bell?

  But adversity, like I, as I noticed recently, somebody mentioned failure and almost conceptually, I don't know. I sense you have the same thing. Do you even now have the category of failure?

• 10:07Lewis Howes?

  No, I mean, we talk about it all the time as feedback.

• 10:09Rob Bell?

  Right.

• 10:10Lewis Howes?

  It's information that's telling us what we shouldn't be doing or what we could be doing better.

• 10:13Rob Bell?

  Data.

• 10:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's information.

• 10:15Rob Bell?

  And a good story.

• 10:16Lewis Howes?

  Great story.

• 10:18Rob Bell?

  So

• 10:19Lewis Howes?

  There's no good movie out there. It's just like, the person's life was amazing. There was no adversary. There was no challenger, you know, it's like you have to conquer something.

• 10:29Rob Bell?

  Right, right, right. Right, right, right. There's this old story in the book of Genesis about Jacob wrestles an angel. And he gets his hip injured. And the rabbis talk about Jacob walks away limping, but he's experienced the divine.

• 10:47Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 10:47Rob Bell?

  So there's like a limp.

• 10:49Lewis Howes?

  Why is he experiencing the divine?

• 10:50Rob Bell?

  He's wrestled with who he is. In the first time you meet him, he's pretending to be his brother. Who are you? And he gives his brother's name. But then when he wrestles with the divine, I'm Jacob. So actually, if you trace the story, it's somebody becoming comfortable in his own skin. Because when you first meet him, he's trying to be somebody else. And

• 11:16Lewis Howes?

  Now he's owning himself.

• 11:17Rob Bell?

  And now he's, I'm Jacob. And so this path we all go on to learn to be comfortable in your own skin. This is how I am. This is where I'm from. That's why LeBron always says he's from Akron. You gotta own every square inch of your story.

• 11:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What happens if we don't own our story?

• 11:33Rob Bell?

  Bits and pieces that you don't know what to do with. Often they haunt the house.

• 11:41Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 11:42Rob Bell?

  They're, they're present. Anything that doesn't get named or expressed, then it's lurking somewhere. You develop a shadow. So think about any family system, any business, any partnership where there's two columns, things we can talk about and things we can't.

• 12:05Rob Bell?

  The things in the column that we can't talk about, that can't be said, are running the show.

• 12:10Lewis Howes?

  Those are the things you need to be talking about.

• 12:11Rob Bell?

  Yes. And if they, if they can't be spoken, then they're the shadow, they're the underbelly. They haunt the house and they actually are running the show.

• 12:19Lewis Howes?

  And that's what's keeping you from what you want.

• 12:21Rob Bell?

  Everybody's agreed not to talk about that. Tell me what you can't talk about, like we can diagnose quite quickly the, the thing.

• 12:31Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard for people to talk about the thing they don't want to name? When that's the answer?

• 12:36Rob Bell?

  Right, right, right, right, right, right.

• 12:40Rob Bell?

  Yeah, the terror of Could we, could we speak that and be okay? Could we face that and it wouldn't blow things to pieces? Yeah, it might. It might. The truth might get spoken and the current structure and arrangement might be blasted to pieces.

• 13:01Lewis Howes?

  But at least you'd be free.

• 13:02Rob Bell?

  You'd be free, so which?

• 13:04Lewis Howes?

  You want freedom?

• 13:05Rob Bell?

  Would you like?

• 13:06Lewis Howes?

  And potential chaos of blowing up the system?

• 13:09Rob Bell?

  Right.

• 13:09Lewis Howes?

  Or?

• 13:10Rob Bell?

  You can't have new creation without a disruption of the current creation. So like in America right now, we need to police ourselves in new and better ways. Greater community responsibility, less brutality, obviously. But to police ourselves in a better way, there will have to be a disruption in the way that we currently understand what we mean by policing.

• 13:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 13:38Rob Bell?

  Because it's not working.

• 13:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:39Rob Bell?

  And generally, somebody, somewhere has a vested interest in the current arrangement. Like, people generally don't understand things if their paycheck is dependent on them not understanding it.

• 13:53Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 13:54Rob Bell?

  So, yeah, for there to be new creation, there'll probably have to be some sort of disruption of the present creation, which always has a structure, which always has somebody with a vested interest. Power, money is probably lurking. Yeah, so in some ways, the work that we do is helping people like, it's okay. It's okay. You can speak the thing, you can say it, you can name it. Yeah, it might be blown to shreds, but on the other side, you'll be free.

• 14:22Lewis Howes?

  Peace.

• 14:23Rob Bell?

  It'll be so much better.

• 14:26Lewis Howes?

  What are the questions all humans should be asking themselves during a time like this of uncertainty, of chaos, of I'm not sure what's gonna happen, of information overload, when we don't even know where tomorrow will bring us? We don't even know if we're gonna have our jobs and health and scariness. What are the questions we should ask ourselves about life, God, why we're here?

• 14:54Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Rob Bell?

  The first thing is what new creation is waiting to be birthed in this? So you think about like, America spends twice as much on healthcare as other first world countries, and our healthcare is way worse. So, and most personal bankruptcies are rooted in a healthcare system doesn't work. So, so everything is spiritual, but this is all spiritual. How do we, what does health look like in our, the way that we've arranged ourselves?

• 15:40Rob Bell?

  So you can see it all as a, this thing isn't working, but if you immediately have that, this thing isn't working, okay, well then how, how should we arrange it? So grief and imagination have a longstanding relationship. Cause grief is loss, and anytime you're losing something, anytime there's grief, which is loss, that's always where the seeds of imagination are hiding. This thing is passing away. Well, then by default, we're gonna have to cook up something new. So you can see it, especially in the ancient tradition, anytime there's grief, that's always the moment to keep your eyes peeled.

• 16:25Rob Bell?

  Because this is always where the imagination begins to arise.

• 16:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:29Rob Bell?

  Well, if that thing's gone, well, how would we do it if we had to start over? So I think that's the number one question right now. Are there better ways for education? Are there, think of all the, think of all the things that aren't working like they used to. And you can see that disorientation as terrifying and...

• 16:47Lewis Howes?

  Well, you know, it's interesting is it's typically hard for a lot of people to make a change in their life without a near-death experience, without a sickness, a cancer scare, someone in the family close to them dying, a divorce, a death of something.

• 17:01Rob Bell?

  Yes.

• 17:01Lewis Howes?

  Where for us to say, this isn't working for me, I've gotta start eating better. I got fired from my job, you know, I didn't like it there anyways. Like, what do I really want?

• 17:09Rob Bell?

  It was weirdly a gift that they left, yeah.

• 17:11Lewis Howes?

  So it's almost like, since the world hasn't been able to make the change on its own, it's being forced to change in a drastic and uncomfortable, painful way.

• 17:21Rob Bell?

  Yes.

• 17:23Lewis Howes?

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• 18:08Lewis Howes?

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• 18:43Rob Bell?

  When I started out, like, 24, 25, I started out as a pastor. And so the job was basically walking with people through the awful stuff of life. The good stuff, weddings, but funerals, hospitals.

• 19:00Lewis Howes?

  You were the one showing up at the hospital, at the home.

• 19:02Rob Bell?

  And I wasn't even prepared for this. The job of the pastor is somebody calls and is like, "My dad just got sent to prison. We need somebody with an official credential because none of us can get in to visit him right now. Could you please go visit him because he hasn't had any visitors?" Okay. So I would, I, and for, especially in the beginning, my, like, mantra was, "I'll go anywhere. I'll talk to anybody." But what happened is I would end up, the 16-year-old hung himself, and now I'm in the hospital room with his family. I'm standing over the casket with this guy, and his wife is in the casket, and this is the woman he's been with for 50 years. I mean, this, and I'm like 25, 26. But what I kept noticing...

• 19:46Rob Bell?

  Is I would see the person in the lowest moment. But then I'd see them a month later, six months later, 12 months later. And I would watch how some people got smaller. It's almost like their soul constricted, they became bitter. Life owes me. Stuck back there. But then, most people, which I didn't see coming. Most people, it took them to these new places they never would have gone. Hmm, breakthroughs. Big, wide, expansive. And then I would notice people would say things to me like,

• 20:29Rob Bell?

  they'd say, "That was a hell on earth. You were with me in that time. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, and yet now,

• 20:37Rob Bell?

  if I hadn't have gone through that, I can't imagine where I would be." Right. It's almost like we need those things. Oh, so weird, because they would say things like, honestly now, and you could see the word on the tip of their tongue was grateful. They'd be like, "I'm honestly kind of, I can't say grateful, but that's actually the word, but it feels so counterintuitive." And yet, so right away, like my late twenties,

• 21:05Rob Bell?

  there's something upside down about the whole way this thing works.

• 21:09Rob Bell?

  And all of the endless striving to win, be successful, make a bunch of money, have everybody... Okay, fine, yeah, that's great, but the actual game that you really want to be playing is like upside down. Yeah. It works so differently than everybody was taught. What's the game we should be playing? Well, what's interesting is how many people have a deep knowing. So, they would be like, "My job isn't working out. I don't feel like my life is where it's supposed to be." And just a couple of questions in instantly.

• 21:40Rob Bell?

  I'd say, "Do you think that, or are you reading off someone else's script?" Or even inviting people, "Please don't tell me what you think. Tell me what sits on top of your heart."

• 21:52Rob Bell?

  And to this day, a lot of the work I do is just inviting people. Cause soul knows, heart knows, mind chatters, it compares, it's envious, it's jealous. Your mind is all over the place. It's like looking at so and so's Instagram followers. It's lovely, it's also a wreck.

• 22:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:12Rob Bell?

  But the amount of times when you sit in silence or you create a space where somebody can listen for the real thing. I'll often invite people to sink down into heart. And the person knows instantly. Oh, that direction, that person, that job. So there's like a deep knowing that all human beings have. And the number of people who would say, something within me was telling me things, but I went with what everybody around me was saying. And later I was like, I knew it the whole time.

• 22:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:49Rob Bell?

  So I think that's actually the great cultural crisis right now.

• 22:54Lewis Howes?

  You've talked about in the past about how doubt is actually essential for faith. I think, I don't know how you phrase it.

• 22:59Rob Bell?

  They're like dance partners.

• 23:00Lewis Howes?

  Right? It's like you need doubt in order to have faith. I think, I think something like that.

• 23:03Rob Bell?

  Sure, sure.

• 23:05Lewis Howes?

  So how should people address doubt? Whether it be doubt on the external or internal self doubt? Also, is there anything you're doubting right now?

• 23:17Rob Bell?

  Yeah, doubt's really interesting. I think it's all part of it. Of course you have questions. If you don't have questions right now, where is this thing headed? What is going on?

• 23:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Rob Bell?

  Yeah, doubt is all part of it, because it's all part of the full spectrum of the human experience. I actually now, the work that I do, the stuff I do is because when I first started to think about it, I'm like, I don't know if I could pull that off.

• 23:48Rob Bell?

  I don't know, could I, I don't know, could that, would that work?

• 23:52Lewis Howes?

  Really? The great, the great spiritual Rob Bell.

• 23:55Rob Bell?

  Oh yeah, sure.

• 23:56Lewis Howes?

  Ten time bestselling author, one of the most influential people in America, Time Magazine, on tour with Oprah, you ask yourself, could I pull this off?

• 24:06Rob Bell?

  The first line of this book is, uh, my grandma used to keep cash in her bra.

• 24:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and she would ask you, ten or two fives?

• 24:14Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'd ask you for a twenty and she'd say, well, ten and two fives, dude, she'd reach in her shirt. When all of a sudden, I realized, oh, this book is you starting way back there. And telling what it's like to be you, and all the missteps and awkward moments. Would that work?

• 24:36Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 24:36Rob Bell?

  Could I do that? Is there something there? The question mark, the like curiosity. That's a weird book to write. Opening with that line, like. Yeah, that's how it works now for me.

• 24:52Lewis Howes?

  How, how, how do you find the self-confidence or the belief when you doubt yourself? How do you develop that skill? Whether it's a spiritual, mental, physical skill, what, what is that?

• 25:04Rob Bell?

  I always ask, where's the joy?

• 25:06Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 25:08Rob Bell?

  Or where's the life? So, so is it good or bad? Is it right or wrong? Is it, not interesting questions. Question is, well, one question is simply, where's the curiosity? Cause curiosity is underrated. Calling is overrated, curiosity is underrated. Calling is that like sort of high sense of, this is what I'm here. This is what, this is my, okay, fine, yeah, whatever. What are you curious about? Like, your whole thing is curiosity.

• 25:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:37Rob Bell?

  You follow it the whole time. How can I help people in this way? How does it work? You know about this.

• 25:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:45Rob Bell?

  Curiosity is the engine. So you'll think about like you'll see a film that moves you and so you go read interviews with the director, the director's always, "I wanted to tell this story. I had this, like I want to try to make this." Or humanitarian work, "I want to try to help people," or education. "I thought there's a new way to teach people this." Yeah, curiosity is the thing. So that's often...

• 26:06Lewis Howes?

  So when we doubt ourselves, what should we be thinking as opposed to, "Ah, am I gonna be able to do this? Maybe I'm not good enough. I don't have the skills. I don't have the experience." What should we be asking?

• 26:16Rob Bell?

  Because the doubt is authority, legitimacy, imposter syndrome. What if no one cares? What if it doesn't sell? What if I try, it doesn't work? None of those are interesting questions and all of those questions pull you out of the present moment and put you in the future.

• 26:37Lewis Howes?

  That doesn't exist.

• 26:38Rob Bell?

  Right, right. So that's the thing about, the only moment we ever have is now, is this takes you into a different relationship with time. Regret is stuck in the past. Worry is stuck in the future. But what's interesting is all of the questions of self-doubt that keep people from doing the thing are in the future, which isn't real. It's an illusion. So the only interesting question is, "What do you want to do now?" Like, "What do you want to do?"

• 27:05Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 27:06Rob Bell?

  And...

• 27:07Lewis Howes?

  And why are you curious about it?

• 27:08Rob Bell?

  The problem with our culture is it was so like, "You need to get good grades. You need to go get a good job," instead of, like, "What do you want?" Think about how many people their family system literally trained them away from their heart. Like, at early ages, they had something rising up within heart, demanding expression, and what they were taught is, "Whatever you do, don't listen to that." Actually be suspicious of that.

• 27:35Lewis Howes?

  That's probably why a lot of kids are rebellious.

• 27:37Rob Bell?

  That kid, right, that kid has a problem because that kid's responding to a system that is splitting her from her true self. So she's actually responding in a very healthy way to a system that isn't...

• 27:53Lewis Howes?

  She's rejecting it.

• 27:55Rob Bell?

  The great, uh, some people think the greatest American architect was Louis Kahn. And when he would begin designing a building, Louis Kahn would ask, "What does this building want to be?" Isn't that great? It's kind of like a sculptor who's like choosing a way. What does this want to be? So like you think about every parent with every kid. What does this kid want to be? What do I want this kid to be? What we're here to do is to watch this kid discover who they're here to be. That's the only game to be playing. Yeah. So the self doubt, the lack of confidence, the I don't know if I'll be any good. Never an interesting question.

• 28:37Rob Bell?

  The question is, where's the curiosity? What's the thing that something within you is like, oh, I would like to try that? That's, there's this interesting thing in Hebrew consciousness. Moses in the Torah is told, I put before you. The divine says to Moses, I put before you life and death. And we read life and death as you're here living and then you die. Two modes, here and then gone, somewhere else, dead. But in Hebrew consciousness, life and death are two modes of being right here and right now. So you could be living, alive, breathing, but actually dying. It's possible to be living and dying.

• 29:22Rob Bell?

  Which I think is really helpful because I'm sure you've interacted with people who are like, this thing over here seems trivial, but it keeps tugging on my sleeve, calling me to it. It'll, I get the wake in the night thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's where the life is. So just own it. It's a matter of life and death. Wow. Something within me dies if I don't try that. If I don't lean into my curiosity, the thing that's on my heart. Yeah, you got some idea? You got some? If you reframe it as, if I'm not true to whatever this is, something within me dies.

• 30:05Rob Bell?

  Yeah, that might be the way, that might get you out of a lot of different

• 30:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:10Rob Bell?

  situations where you're all bound up and stuck and the energies are all

• 30:14Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:15Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 30:17Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious, what were the few big questions you asked yourself before pastor school? Did you ask yourself, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of, there's, there's three main questions I feel like a lot of people ask. Why am I here or slash what's my purpose?

• 30:34Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 30:35Lewis Howes?

  Is there a God?

• 30:37Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 30:38Lewis Howes?

  And what happens after I die?

• 30:40Rob Bell?

  Right.

• 30:41Lewis Howes?

  Did you ask yourself those questions ever before going into pastor school and this training? What were those answers for you then? And what are those answers for you now?

• 30:54Rob Bell?

  They're probably the same exact, they're probably the same exact answers.

• 30:57Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 30:58Rob Bell?

  I had, in college, I was in this band.

• 31:02Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 31:02Rob Bell?

  Lead singer, lead singer syndrome.

• 31:04Lewis Howes?

  Scott Band.

• 31:05Rob Bell?

  So it was more like, it was called alternative at that time in the late eighties, which basically meant not Bon Jovi.

• 31:14Rob Bell?

  But um, there was something about creating these songs and then we'd play these shows. Like us and like six punk bands in a basement somewhere. It was like there was something communal, there's all this energy, all these bodies. There was something about, I would write these lyrics. Something about what I was experiencing and then giving it expression and then watching people sing the lyrics. There was some sort of, I was doing some, it was like moving, it was like a tribal fire.

• 31:47Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:48Rob Bell?

  You know what I mean? It was like harnessing, it was like lassoing the love and energy in the room and all of us going somewhere together. And I was probably, I was nineteen. Yeah, so that, there was something in that that was like naming the thing that we're all experiencing.

• 32:08Rob Bell?

  That it struck a, it was the first time in my life, I was like, oh. I, this is something I, like, because there was always a better student. There was always better athletes. There are only cool kids who got invited to all the right parties. Everywhere I turned, the world was ranked. Sound familiar?

• 32:25Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 32:26Rob Bell?

  Everywhere I turned, there was somebody who was winning. And I was nine clicks down. But what's interesting about that impulse, when I stumbled into it, is it wasn't like, oh, I could be the best at this. It was like it tossed out even the idea of ranking. It was just, this is where the joy is. Then the band broke up, as college bands do. And there was something about the big questions, the big mysteries.

• 32:54Lewis Howes?

  What were the big questions for you?

• 32:56Rob Bell?

  What are we doing here? How's this thing work?

• 33:00Rob Bell?

  What is, what is, what is meaning? Why do some things matter and some things don't? My parents said, my parents had taken us to church here and there. So I had like, I, I was familiar with the idea of like spirituality. It always seemed kind of, uh, not boring, just like, this can't, if this is it, this should be the juice. This should, like, the big stuff. Why is it so like sweater vests and acoustic guitars? This thing is like, this should be awesome. So I think something within me was like, I'm gonna do my version of that. Yeah. And in the, in the world I came from, uh, intellectual rigor was very important.

• 33:43Rob Bell?

  So I was like, well, then you need to get, you need to go get a master's degree in divinity, which I laugh now. A master's in divinity. I never at the time was like, a master of the divine? Like, that's, you know what I mean?

• 33:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:58Rob Bell?

  That's just ridiculous premise. But, so I, so that's sort of in the world, because we all come from these worlds that are like, oh, you want to do that? This is how you do it.

• 34:08Rob Bell?

  But yeah, it was all, what's going on here? What, how do you forgive people who have wronged you? What, uh, what kind of universe is this? Is there a, is this whole thing headed somewhere? Or is it just a series of random events that you sort of duct tape together your own version of? And then, so I learned a number of things.

• 34:35Rob Bell?

  But they also, you learn stuff and it just creates new questions. So that's how it works now.

• 34:39Lewis Howes?

  Is there anything that you were firmly a believer in for, I don't know, the last 20 something years? That you've started to question in a different way? That you're like, you know what, maybe there's, maybe that's not true to me anymore. A set of beliefs, one belief, two beliefs that you question again. That maybe you were so firm on believing.

• 35:01Rob Bell?

  Oh, uh. Guarantees. Oh, you're gonna be fine. Everything's fine, you're, instead of, oh, I have no idea how it's gonna go.

• 35:13Lewis Howes?

  So you used to have the belief that everything's gonna work out, it's all gonna be fine?

• 35:16Rob Bell?

  The goal is to comfort.

• 35:18Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 35:18Rob Bell?

  The goal is to give people a rock solid foundation. Here are the things you, here's the ground that you can stand on that won't shift. Cause that's what everybody wants. Just show me the rug that's not gonna get pulled.

• 35:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. Now what? Now what?

• 35:33Rob Bell?

  And.

• 35:33Lewis Howes?

  Now how do you think?

• 35:35Rob Bell?

  Uncertainty is baked into the whole thing.

• 35:39Rob Bell?

  The people that we love the most, the, the structures that we all. Are like, oh, that's, this'll be around the whole way. Who knows?

• 35:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 35:48Rob Bell?

  Who knows? Even when I began to study quantum physics. And everything is made of atoms and atoms are made of particles and particles come and go and there's probabilities, but ultimately. They don't, in, in empty space, a particle comes into existence and then a particle, they don't know where it came from, they don't know where it goes. But the whole thing. Is a relationship of energy that is deeply, deeply mysterious. And the more we know about it and the probabilities that help you make airplanes and flat screen TVs, it's still. I think the uncertainty is all part of it. It's okay.

• 36:24Rob Bell?

  And slightly terrifying, sometimes really terrifying.

• 36:29Rob Bell?

  So like Louis, just do these things, you'll be fine. Louis, do these things and your whole thing might completely catch on fire.

• 36:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:36Rob Bell?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 36:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:38Rob Bell?

  And. You'll be okay. So all the paradoxes and contradictions.

• 36:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 36:43Rob Bell?

  All the paradoxes and contradictions.

• 36:47Rob Bell?

  You might get everything you ever wanted. All your dreams might come true. And you might in that moment realize. There might be a dull thud of this is it?

• 36:59Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:02Rob Bell?

  And that's all part of it. So I think I'm much more, even this book is embracing all the weirdness and painfulness and ache of it. Instead of how to get rid of it, how to embrace it is all part of it.

• 37:21Lewis Howes?

  Don't eliminate the pain.

• 37:22Rob Bell?

  Yeah, right, right, right, the limp.

• 37:24Lewis Howes?

  Don't comfort yourself. Don't try to medicate. Don't try to find a new addiction.

• 37:28Rob Bell?

  Yeah, the limp.

• 37:30Lewis Howes?

  Sit with it.

• 37:31Rob Bell?

  Yeah. Yeah, you're walking with the limp, but you've experienced something that's changed you.

• 37:38Lewis Howes?

  What is certain to you? Is there any certainty?

• 37:43Rob Bell?

  Now, the awareness that you and I are present here in these bodies, getting to connect soul to soul, and the bottomless, infinite joy of that. So more and more of the present moment and all that is present here, more than enough. This, more than enough.

• 38:14Lewis Howes?

  That's what's certain. Nothing else is certain.

• 38:19Rob Bell?

  I love, I love the follow-up question to that.

• 38:25Rob Bell?

  When we talk about how the whole thing works, this is what we get.

• 38:33Rob Bell?

  And then my son Trace is there and then we'll go home and the family will be there. And yeah, obviously, we're all like, that's the, that's the lifeblood of life. But where it'll go, anybody who can nail all that down for you, they're trying to sell you something.

• 38:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And what do you think is missing for most people who are lacking joy, connection, awareness? What is, what is the thing that they're missing that they're not tapping into? They're not seeing clearly?

• 39:01Rob Bell?

  I would look every one of them in the eyes. I would invite them to take a deep breath. And then I would say to them,

• 39:11Rob Bell?

  You are enough.

• 39:14Rob Bell?

  You are enough exactly as you are.

• 39:19Rob Bell?

  Except that you are accepted.

• 39:23Rob Bell?

  You've been loved the whole time. Belonging was never an issue.

• 39:29Lewis Howes?

  Why is it so hard for people to believe that?

• 39:32Rob Bell?

  Yeah, good God, we're living in these systems. I mean, think, uh, let's take an example. How many billions of dollars were spent today on the internet to keep you clicking?

• 39:44Rob Bell?

  For advertisements to tell you that there's something that you need, that if you had it, then you'd be better off. So what it does spatially, several billion dollars were spent today to, at a deep, subtle level, reaffirm for you that you're here and there's a better you here.

• 40:07Rob Bell?

  Like, that's actually how it works in terms of the psyche, the heart.

• 40:12Rob Bell?

  If you just...

• 40:14Lewis Howes?

  Had this, got this, bought this.

• 40:16Rob Bell?

  Ancient tradition that actually helped people was here, now you're loved. You're okay. There's a world of wonder and awe and mystery. Right here. Right here.

• 40:34Lewis Howes?

  Did you watch The Social Dilemma? The Netflix?

• 40:36Rob Bell?

  Oh, my goodness, you are like the fifth person this week. I had read, uh, as a Jared Lanier, the 10 Reasons to Delete Your Social Media Accounts Right Now. I had read that book when it first came out, because people had said like this. Basically, people like, one of the first people to invent the internet is now saying, wait a second.

• 40:56Lewis Howes?

  I shouldn't have done this.

• 40:57Rob Bell?

  So then when someone said he's interviewed in that film, I was like, oh, good, yeah, so. Of course, I'll watch it. And I love that what his book is essentially now, and his voice and these other voices are. Chilling, huh?

• 41:10Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy. I watched it two, two, three nights ago, and it's like all these ex-product developers at

• 41:15Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:16Lewis Howes?

  the biggest internet marketing companies and social media companies were like, I wish I could go back and not do what we did.

• 41:22Rob Bell?

  Man, we made these machines.

• 41:24Lewis Howes?

  They show the statistics of how, like, in 2009, kind of when, like, social media became a thing, right around there, 2005, 2009, when it started to kind of be more accessible. The suicide rates went up with millennials. Like, suicide rates were kind of like steady for the last 80 years, I guess, by pretty norm. I mean, normal, same amount every year, and then

• 41:46Rob Bell?

  And then they spiked.

• 41:47Lewis Howes?

  And it continues. And they're attributing it towards part of this system, which has, obviously, tools that benefit us in a lot of ways. It's like, with convenience, okay, I can push a button and in 30 seconds, my food shows up, or a car picks me up and takes me somewhere. But with other things where it kind of hurts our-

• 42:08Rob Bell?

  It has like an underbelly.

• 42:09Lewis Howes?

  It tells us everything that we are not. We are not enough.

• 42:12Rob Bell?

  Exactly.

• 42:13Lewis Howes?

  And it advertises to us of why we're not enough over and over again.

• 42:17Rob Bell?

  And like, the invention of fire, and it can keep you warm and cook your food, and it can-

• 42:23Lewis Howes?

  And kill you.

• 42:24Rob Bell?

  Burn the whole forest down. We-

• 42:28Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that's a good analogy, yeah.

• 42:30Rob Bell?

  We are back to, we invented these things that have a tremendous upside and an underbelly. And so, while things are way more sophisticated, the same ancient question is, do we have the wisdom and maturity to handle our fire? Is still the question that has always been the question. So the idea that we graduated beyond that question, we're right back to, can we handle the fire?

• 42:58Lewis Howes?

  It's a more complicated fire.

• 43:00Rob Bell?

  It's a much more complicated, insidious fire, because it doesn't even announce itself as fire.

• 43:04Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 43:05Rob Bell?

  But it's the same question that's always been there, yeah.

• 43:09Lewis Howes?

  What's your spiritual practice look like today? As I'm assuming when you were actively a pastor, had your church, building things up, it was a different type of practice, I'm assuming, maybe I'm wrong?

• 43:23Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 43:23Lewis Howes?

  How does it look from there to where it is now?

• 43:28Rob Bell?

  It's now it's all about

• 43:34Rob Bell?

  the smallest details of life. Walk the dog in the morning.

• 43:40Rob Bell?

  I walk the dog in the morning and remind myself of the mantra, everything you need for today.

• 43:47Rob Bell?

  You'll have when you need it. Probably not even ahead of time. So let's just remember that.

• 43:53Lewis Howes?

  It'll come to you when you need it.

• 43:55Rob Bell?

  Yeah. The dog is pure presence. The dog will remember yesterday.

• 43:58Lewis Howes?

  Love, joy.

• 43:59Rob Bell?

  Or the dog's not like, dude, tomorrow's gonna rule. The dog can only be here.

• 44:06Lewis Howes?

  And then it forgets after like you leave, 10 minutes later you come back, it's like, oh, he's here.

• 44:11Rob Bell?

  The dog is only here. That's um, there most of the time when I surf, there are dolphins. Like this morning. And a dolphin's just a dolphin goes by like I'm a dolphin.

• 44:23Rob Bell?

  It's like just pure presence. It only knows how to be here and be a dolphin. Which sounds so unbelievably simple and is probably the most profound thing ever. So all the the details, when Kristen and I got married in the early 90s, in the 1900s, we were married and you would go get registered. You'd go to a department store and like tell them what you wanted and people would buy you this stuff. And there were two kinds of plates. There was everyday plates and then you also registered for like fine plates to use. So we just basically got two different kinds of white plates.

• 45:05Rob Bell?

  And in the cupboard, in the kitchen are the two kinds of plates and I use the really nice ones, which are just another version of a white plate every day.

• 45:18Rob Bell?

  Because today, we're celebrating because it's today. We're not waiting for someday.

• 45:27Rob Bell?

  And I tell that story that's completely trivial and ridiculous because in my experience, it's the attention to the details. Which is where the sacred and the holy are found. My friend Dan Klein says, how you do anything is how you do everything. So, um, as opposed to, there's a temple, which is the like holy sacred space, and then there's regular space, and you leave regular space and go to some exalted other space. Uh, I think of it like the whole thing is a temple.

• 46:01Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:02Rob Bell?

  So this conversation is as holy and sacred. So that's how it works now.

• 46:07Lewis Howes?

  I think you told me a couple of years ago, like, everything is church.

• 46:10Rob Bell?

  Yes.

• 46:11Lewis Howes?

  Like, we're churching right now.

• 46:12Rob Bell?

  Absolutely.

• 46:13Lewis Howes?

  You don't need to go to church to have a spiritual practice.

• 46:16Rob Bell?

  It was always a, a deep experience of what it means to be human.

• 46:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:21Rob Bell?

  Yeah, that was always, what, what else was the goal?

• 46:23Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 46:24Rob Bell?

  Yeah, so, yeah, I'm much more aware, trying to think how to say this. Becoming more and more aware of how there's always more going on in any moment and any interaction. So you're at a party and you meet this person, and what do you do? What do you do? Your, your head like, oh, that sounds boring, next person.

• 46:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:47Rob Bell?

  It's just learning to go, oh, I have no idea what that means, tell me more. It's literally, you might be like one question away from now we're in.

• 47:00Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:02Rob Bell?

  Look what this thing turned into.

• 47:03Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. It's interesting talking about meeting people or in a networking event or something. When I got into the business world, I remember thinking, I have no credibility. I'm just this young guy with no experience. I don't know how to make myself interesting or smart in this moment. And so what I just started doing was ask interesting questions.

• 47:24Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:24Lewis Howes?

  And just didn't say anything.

• 47:25Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 47:26Lewis Howes?

  And people, after every event, a couple hours of networking, I would just ask everyone questions and listen like so intently, and tell me more, tell me more. Everyone's like, man, you're the most interesting person in this room. Isn't that funny? It's like, not trying to be the smartest.

• 47:38Rob Bell?

  That's what bonded us when we met, because I was like, oh, good, somebody who's like me is like, I'll tell you, I already know, is I'm gonna leave this event knowing more than you.

• 47:47Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 47:47Rob Bell?

  Cause I think all of you are way more interesting than you even think you are.

• 47:51Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:52Rob Bell?

  I'm, I'm going to ask you all sorts of questions because I find humans endlessly fascinating.

• 47:58Lewis Howes?

  Endlessly fascinating. What's the question you think you'll stop asking the universe?

• 48:06Rob Bell?

  Oh, um, why? You'll stop asking why? This is not as interesting anymore. Really? Yeah. Why is it set up this way? Why do these things happen? Why do these? Have you ever got an answer and you're like, oh, okay, good?

• 48:23Rob Bell?

  And even all the questions of horrible things and suffering and tragedy, why? Like, why did this bad thing happen? Why coronavirus? Why did people die this way? Why do you? Yeah, I don't know. So you stop asking that? It's a world. It's free to be a world. What else would happen? I mean, this isn't cold and cackling, and this is heartfelt. How else would a world work? Where everything is perfect all the time? Like had padding? Like, everything had soft cotton padding on it? Do you know what I mean?

• 48:52Rob Bell?

  There were no cliffs, so there was no altitude. So there was no water. Like, you wouldn't... It's a world.

• 49:03Rob Bell?

  So I think there's a number of those sorts of questions. When did you stop asking why?

• 49:13Rob Bell?

  As I began to realize the moments of...

• 49:18Rob Bell?

  The moments in life, the real joy. The moments when you were caught up in something.

• 49:26Rob Bell?

  You left behind a whole world of duality. Right, wrong, winning, losing. The moments of love. The moments when you were caught up in a conversation, an event, some transcendent anything. Are the moments Louis was no longer looking at his watch. Was no longer evaluating even meaning itself. Think about how the moments

• 49:49Rob Bell?

  that have been moments you would look back on and say, that's what it's all about. Even the idea in the moment, you weren't going, well, this is meaningful as opposed to not meaningful. Or, well, this is significant. You left even behind those categories. Because you were just there. Yeah. You were just...

• 50:12Rob Bell?

  Experiencing something that exists even beyond all the standard categories that is it's this, or it's this, it's this, or it's this.

• 50:21Lewis Howes?

  When I look back on parts of my journey to the struggle, the challenge, the beginning stage, the idea stage of something, I look back and I'm like, gosh, that's really where the juice was.

• 50:31Rob Bell?

  Yes.

• 50:33Lewis Howes?

  Not when I had it all figured out, or when the thing was done, that's where a lot of juice was. And then as I look at, and so was every feedback moment, or failure, so was every lesson, so was every moment in between the end result. And so was the end result of bringing something full circle and be like, wow, isn't this cool, look what I can create from an idea.

• 50:53Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:54Lewis Howes?

  It's all of it.

• 50:55Rob Bell?

  Yeah, so your consciousness and awareness of this unfolding of Lewis-ness.

• 51:00Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 51:00Rob Bell?

  And your

• 51:03Rob Bell?

  being in it, but also witnessing to it with wonder and awe.

• 51:07Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 51:08Rob Bell?

  Is the game. That's the thing.

• 51:10Lewis Howes?

  That's it.

• 51:11Rob Bell?

  That's the thing.

• 51:11Lewis Howes?

  It's not trying to achieve something, it's enjoying the moment and saying, oh, let's see what happens in this process.

• 51:17Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. In the yogi tradition, the most enlightened, awakened ones,

• 51:26Rob Bell?

  they are the ones always winking and smiling. All the wise ones are always smiling, because it's like blessed is the one who's in on the joke. They always talk about, they stick around simply to enjoy the liberation of others.

• 51:37Lewis Howes?

  It's funny you say that, because I saw a Dalai Lama speak one time. You probably got him on speed dial, but I saw him speak one time, and the first thing he did, he like comes up, it's like this old jolly man, right? Half speaks English. And he comes up and sits down, he goes, "Oh, I just went to the bathroom," and like, something like this, "I just farted," like, he said something that you would never expect the Dalai Lama to say. And I hear that he does that all the time, it's just to kind of be like, hey, this is like a fun environment, it doesn't have to be this holy, sacred, I have all the answers. He's like, yeah, I have challenges too. And that's part of it.

• 52:14Rob Bell?

  I did a Q and A with him. Like Bishop Tutu, him, me, like a couple of us in a row on a stage.

• 52:22Lewis Howes?

  And his uh

• 52:23Rob Bell?

  Anybody from the audience and the guy behind him in the gray suit, the tan suit.

• 52:26Lewis Howes?

  Speaking, yeah, translating.

• 52:27Rob Bell?

  And so people from the audience could ask questions and then we would all take turns. Oh my God, so much fun.

• 52:32Lewis Howes?

  Did he do something similar where he's like, oh, I just farted.

• 52:34Rob Bell?

  By the way, he has some fans. Like people make like a Lewis Howes t-shirt and give it to you when you're out somewhere, whatever I assume, or bake you cookies in the shape of an L, whatever that is. I'm telling you.

• 52:44Lewis Howes?

  He has people tattooing his face on his body.

• 52:46Rob Bell?

  People carving stuff out of wood that took them 27 years. No, it's a next level.

• 52:50Lewis Howes?

  Did it say here is my moment to give to you?

• 52:52Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 52:53Rob Bell?

  Oh, unbelievable. But he gets asked a question.

• 52:58Rob Bell?

  And he goes.

• 52:59Lewis Howes?

  You're moderating.

• 53:00Rob Bell?

  No, there's a moderator and then there's like a couple, a couple of us on the stage doing this thing. He gets asked a question and he goes.

• 53:08Rob Bell?

  And he takes forever. Time disappears into the ether.

• 53:13Lewis Howes?

  He's waiting.

• 53:14Rob Bell?

  He's just, he goes, there's.

• 53:18Rob Bell?

  He consults with the guy in the khaki suit behind him or the clipboard. He does like a.

• 53:25Rob Bell?

  And the whole arena is just waiting and then he goes.

• 53:30Rob Bell?

  I don't know.

• 53:34Rob Bell?

  That's what he did. I never forget it. I, I, how old was I? 38. I remember in the moment like getting hit by a bolt of lightning like.

• 53:45Rob Bell?

  He just gave me the greatest gift.

• 53:49Rob Bell?

  Like, you know what I mean? It was all those, it was like a huge moment for me.

• 53:54Rob Bell?

  Dalai Lama was just like, I don't know. And he didn't add any special sauce to it. He didn't add any disclaimer, no ironic, no like hyperlink to a website. You know what I mean?

• 54:09Lewis Howes?

  I don't know. End of question. Next question.

• 54:11Rob Bell?

  Just let it float. Just let it float there. How you think about that, what you're thinking about me because I.

• 54:18Rob Bell?

  I don't know.

• 54:20Rob Bell?

  So going back to your question about the why, actually now that you're helping me process this, I just kept noticing that the why was important to a degree and then it didn't take you where you really want to go. That that this experience that we're having here is ultimately an experience and why can easily keep you stuck in your head. But the mind is lovely. It's a wonderful servant, but not the best master. Because it's a full-bodied experience that we're having here. So we're all this integrated essence that

• 55:01Lewis Howes?

  And it's out-of-body experience at the same time.

• 55:03Rob Bell?

  Your body is something happening within you. So I think that's why the why. I just kept noticing that helpful to a degree and then you just, you know what I mean?

• 55:15Lewis Howes?

  You know, it's funny.

• 55:20Lewis Howes?

  I'm probably too much of a curious child all the time. My mom, my mom about a year ago, she would do things that would frustrate me. I say, Mom.

• 55:31Rob Bell?

  Wait, as a kid or a year ago?

• 55:32Lewis Howes?

  No, now. Like my whole life. And I'd be like, Mom, why did you do this? Like, she'll just say something or she'll think something or she'll have a way of doing something. I'd be like, why did you do this? Or why did you do it that way? Or why didn't you do it this way? And she said to me something a year ago that makes me crack up. She still says this today. She says, I stopped answering why questions. And so I still try to like get at her, be like, why'd you do this? And she'll say, well, honey, I stopped answering why questions.

• 56:06Rob Bell?

  It's kind of brilliant.

• 56:08Lewis Howes?

  It really frustrates me, but it is kind of brilliant at the same time because I'm like, She doesn't wanna continue to try to go down a rabbit hole of finding an answer. And she's just like, this is where I'm at, and this is what I'm doing, and take me or leave me type of mentality. So I still try to get her though and say, well, why'd you do that, Bob? I stopped answering why questions.

• 56:31Rob Bell?

  That is very, very funny. That is very funny that your mom.

• 56:35Lewis Howes?

  I still wanna know why to so many things, though.

• 56:37Rob Bell?

  Yeah, good. Oh, yeah, I'm insanely curious. We don't have a problem with why questions. We have a problem with why when why questions are the wrong questions for the thing we're actually after.

• 56:47Lewis Howes?

  Or it's so mysterious that we're not supposed to know the answer.

• 56:51Rob Bell?

  Yeah, no, the why is awesome. Unless your why isn't getting you... Yeah. Unless you're, oh, this is something else. This is something else. There isn't some data that fixes this one.

• 57:04Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:05Rob Bell?

  There is something about this moment right here that is the answer.

• 57:12Lewis Howes?

  What is the greatest truth that you've discovered?

• 57:17Lewis Howes?

  I love bringing you all these questions.

• 57:18Rob Bell?

  Joy.

• 57:21Rob Bell?

  But joy is not... Happy exists in a binary. Happy, sad, positive, negative, pessimist, optimist, those are all binaries. Joy wraps its arms around the full spectrum of the human experience. Joy is... Joy is when you see how fragile, temporary, fleeting this experience is. Covid, cancer, natural disasters, forest fires. Joy is when you come face to face with just how fleeting this experience is.

• 58:03Rob Bell?

  And it heightens your gratitude and appreciation for what you do have right now. So that was the breakthrough for me, was coming to see that joy is we're here. And we're in this moment.

• 58:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we made it here.

• 58:23Rob Bell?

  And it's all we got, so we should probably enjoy it.

• 58:29Lewis Howes?

  For whatever reason, when you're saying that right now, all I'm thinking about is the chaos, pain, cancel culture mentality that's happening right now, where everyone is, I don't want to say everyone, where it seems like, what we witness online, it seems like there's a lot of people attacking. And there's not a lot of space for, "Let me hear a different perspective, even if I firmly disagree, don't believe in what they're saying, think it's harmful what they're saying." What's the spiritual approach to communicating and finding joy with someone you disagree with firmly?

• 59:04Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, well...

• 59:05Lewis Howes?

  Like, how do we navigate this spiritually, as opposed to, "You're canceled, you're bad, you're wrong, I don't agree, so never speak to me, shut down your accounts," never, you know, how do we spiritually evolve to find joy and love in this space?

• 59:20Rob Bell?

  Yeah, because this, I call it the undernet. It's the underbelly of the internet, is actually collapsing in on itself because of a misunderstanding of the stewardship of energies. So each of us, we have these sacred energies. They get us up in the morning, because we're here to take part in a new creation, in a better ordering of the world. So you ask people enough questions, you can get out, some people are organizers, some people are healers, some people are here to speak up, some people are here to follow their curiosity, some people are scientists, they're here to help us with the facts, some

• 1:00:02Rob Bell?

  people are here to organize our common life together as an act of public service. Like, there are these core essences and impulses in each of us. If you do not exercise those energies and use them, and give them expression for the greater good, then they're all bottled up within you. The exercise of your energies in the world will always involve obstacles, challenges. You'll have to move from the fantasy of what it could be to actually...

• 1:00:41Rob Bell?

  Exercising those energies and doing something. And if you don't exercise them, but you just spout off about how things should be, that's actually called fantasy. You're stuck in, you're sending Facebook links to people about how you'd run the world. Instead of going down to the town council and actually getting involved in something. And so what happened is millions of people aren't exercising these sacred energies to actually make a better world. There is this new, super easy way with your thumbs that you can spout off and then live with the lie that you've actually done something.

• 1:01:25Rob Bell?

  So at some level, each person just asks, do I want to be one more person throwing stones at other people who aren't in the game, actually? Or do I want to be somebody who dies to the fantasy and actually does something? So to me, if you start thinking about all of the energy that is being spent, which is why it's so nasty and so vitriolic, that's all energy. So one way to think about it would be, because I've noticed this with you, and this is something that you and I, I think, bond over is we've, you get angry, I get angry.

• 1:02:08Rob Bell?

  I see things that get me like, but somewhere in there, you realize that's going to consume me and not take me anywhere interesting. But if I build, I picture it like a converter. I just decided to build a converter somewhere in here. And all that anger, frustration, rage about how the world should be better and it's not, I'm going to convert into energy to actually do my part.

• 1:02:37Lewis Howes?

  How do you personally?

• 1:02:39Rob Bell?

  And by the way, I should say, that's not like some sort of arrogant, that's just because I know who I am and I'll just wreck.

• 1:02:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:47Rob Bell?

  I'll be home looking at comments. I don't actually go on social media, so I kind of know what you're talking about, but I'm not.

• 1:02:52Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:54Rob Bell?

  I think that's actually the great invitation in our world right now.

• 1:02:58Lewis Howes?

  So if someone is, has a family member that is against their beliefs.

• 1:03:03Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:04Lewis Howes?

  And is aggressively combative in whatever way, whether it's political or religious, whatever. Or they see someone online that is really against their beliefs. How should we emotionally approach those moments? Whether it's a family member, a friend, a colleague.

• 1:03:23Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Lewis Howes?

  A political figure we see that we're completely against for whatever reason. Should we be judging and saying this, why this is bad? Or is there a different approach, more spiritual, that could actually help better?

• 1:03:35Rob Bell?

  Right, right. I always just ask questions of exposure. How does filling your head with that help you do what you're here to do? So if you and this family member have had nine awkward Thanksgivings in a row.

• 1:03:50Rob Bell?

  A, you realize you don't have to go to Thanksgiving. B, maybe you just say to Uncle Phil, Uncle Phil, I get that you have a little altar in your house to Tucker Carlson, that's nice, but like, I get where you're coming from, but we can't keep having this conversation, okay?

• 1:04:07Rob Bell?

  Because you can't take people where they don't want to go.

• 1:04:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:04:09Rob Bell?

  So oftentimes, it's just a straight up boundaries issue.

• 1:04:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:13Rob Bell?

  How does this help you do what you're here to do? Because we need 100% of you. Like if you spent 43% of your energy today trying to flush out the toxins from these people, this group, this coworker, this family member. We could use 100% of your energies.

• 1:04:33Lewis Howes?

  On something positive, yeah.

• 1:04:34Rob Bell?

  So it's probably, it's probably a rediscover of your, discovery of your own dignity. Like you don't have to take that.

• 1:04:43Rob Bell?

  If you wanna go asking questions, if you wanna go pursue your curiosity and try and understand how somebody could see the world that way, then frame it that way. And then sit down with them and say, "Help me understand here, cuz I don't understand how you could post that." But then do it in that spirit, which is to help enlarge and expand yourself. But if it's just like a passive, "I'm just getting shot at." When I meet people who are like, the work that I do in helping people get unstuck in their work, and they're like, "Yeah, I just, I'm just, I'm so, I got all these voices in my head, I got just shot at." I'm like, "Where?" And they're like, "Well, the comments on Facebook."

• 1:05:18Lewis Howes?

  Well, stop reading them.

• 1:05:19Rob Bell?

  Yeah, so I think part of it is just giving people the permission slip. Does that help you do what you're here to do? No? Okay.

• 1:05:28Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Rob Bell?

  You don't have to do any of that. You can just make up your own rules.

• 1:05:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And how do you look at judgment? Like judging other people that maybe you don't agree with, or that are doing things you don't think are right or wrong? How should we frame judgment for ourselves? Is it a helpful thing to judge someone else? Is it not supporting our mission when we constantly look at someone and talk about them and how they're doing it the wrong way?

• 1:05:54Rob Bell?

  In the Greek language, there are three subtleties to the word "judge." The word "judge" in the original Greek is the word "krino," K-R-I-N-O. So there's krino, like judge, like judicial, like a judge. So there's just a basic law function of judging. Then there's judging also, the second meaning of the word is "decision." So it's just, "You, Lewis, think that isn't smart." That's not loaded with anything. That's just, "That person says that, I don't think that takes into account the facts. I think that's misguided, misinformed, ignorant."

• 1:06:31Rob Bell?

  The third thing has a subtle spiritual energy attached to it, and that is personal righteousness at the expense of someone else. That is judgment in pushing somebody down in order to make myself feel higher and raise myself up. So that is a distinction that can be incredibly helpful. Is this, okay, this feels, maybe I call this judgment, but is this judgment simply like, "Yeah, we're always making decisions all the time." Do you like that color or that color? That's a judgment. Is this just a decision? Like, I would go with this, not this. I would vote for this person, not this person.

• 1:07:16Rob Bell?

  Or is this, I'm better?

• 1:07:19Lewis Howes?

  I'm right, better, they're wrong.

• 1:07:20Rob Bell?

  Which takes you into worthy, more loved. That takes us into the same old game of, if I can just put them down, I can get at this ache. But if we go back to you've been loved the whole time, worth was never the game we were playing.

• 1:07:42Rob Bell?

  Yeah, you've always been a son, a daughter of the divine. What else would you be?

• 1:07:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:49Rob Bell?

  You're good in your deepest being. The deepest truth about you is that you've always belonged. You've always mattered, of course. Yeah, that helps me.

• 1:07:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Rob Bell?

  So then that, that, no, this is not about me somehow better. This is, we disagree. I think you missed it. I think it's a fax mask.

• 1:08:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You come from more of a neutral place of like, here's the information, I think, here's the information. You think it's not, you're a bad person or wrong.

• 1:08:17Rob Bell?

  Right, right. And that actually then, feeling free to be like, no, I think you completely missed it. Actually, often is the doorway into compassion. Oh, dear God, look at the world that person's in. It's a world of scarcity. It's a world of lack. Look at the system that they're a part of, that trained them and educated them. It gave them a horrifying view of the world. No wonder, they see, no wonder they're frightened. They were taught that anything involving caring for the earth is a hoax or a conspiracy. That's all they've ever heard. They've never heard any other perspective.

• 1:09:04Rob Bell?

  At least at some level, you can find some sort of compassion.

• 1:09:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. How do we communicate with those types of people that have different beliefs than us? Or aren't willing to see another side? If you're willing to at least like, let me step in your shoes and see where you're coming from. How do we come together?

• 1:09:21Rob Bell?

  Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. To me, the real art. Is can I look far enough inside of you to find me? So, political polarization. Polarization is the inability to see myself in someone else. And so, for many people, this is musculature that never got built up. So like when you're resentful, are you like peak Lewis rationality when you're filled with resentment?

• 1:09:49Lewis Howes?

  Zero.

• 1:09:49Rob Bell?

  Exactly. So you think about, or you think about earlier, early stages of consciousness, like archaic level, when you don't know if you're going to be able to get enough food for the day.

• 1:10:00Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're not thinking clearly.

• 1:10:02Rob Bell?

  Well, there's a different Lewis.

• 1:10:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:05Rob Bell?

  Yeah, so, so part of polarization and the overcoming of polarization is learning to see, oh, of course, if you were told this, had only ever heard this, and every factory in your town got shut down, and no one seemed to care, and somebody came along and said, "I'll take care of you." Of course, you'd rather blow up a, if a system completely failed you, of course, you would want to blow up that system. I would. At lea-, I don't have to agree, still hold on to judgment, and yet, oh, God, I can, this now is a much more interesting story. It's a much more human story than just those people.

• 1:10:49Lewis Howes?

  But what I'm hearing you say is sometimes we're not going to be able to communicate with people to get them to see a different perspective.

• 1:10:54Rob Bell?

  This is the great mystery of human consciousness. Actually, it's really helpful for me. Jesus tells the story about different kinds of soil. He's telling his students, some soil is like really fertile, some soils is rocky and the seed can't find any purchase. It's almost like Jesus is saying to his disciples, "I'm gonna go talk to these people and teach them. I'm teaching about love, generosity, nonviolence. Basically, these seeds I'm putting out, some of these seeds are going to take root and some aren't." But what I love is as if Jesus says to his disciples, "I don't even really get how it works." Like the, I don't even get why this person is gonna be like, "Oh, thank God, that's the most illuminating thing ever. That changes the whole game."

• 1:11:38Rob Bell?

  And this person is gonna be like, "I don't know, it sounds like fake news."

• 1:11:43Rob Bell?

  So, think about people you know that you grew up with in Ohio. Why are you here? Talking to me.

• 1:11:49Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:11:50Rob Bell?

  And people you went to high school with live point three miles away from where they grew up. No, no, they're they're living at home in the basement.

• 1:11:59Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:12:01Rob Bell?

  No judgment, nothing but love. But why did you

• 1:12:06Rob Bell?

  just want to get into a bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger world? And other people who came from identical setting are fine.

• 1:12:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:17Rob Bell?

  Or you get together with somebody from your past and like they're still playing the same jokes. Like two minutes in, you're like, oh, my God, they see the world exactly like they did when we were 21.

• 1:12:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Rob Bell?

  It's the great consciousness is the great mystery at the heart of the human experience. And it's the endless black box for science. In the moment, somebody's like, well, consciousness is just you're on your brain functioning in certain ways. Yeah, but you were just aware enough to say that. So there's the you behind the you behind the you behind you. And I think that's why certain people respond to this moment

• 1:12:55Rob Bell?

  with almost like, don't tell me the facts, don't tell me. And other people are like, OK, tell me more. What's?

• 1:13:03Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:04Rob Bell?

  It's the great mystery. It is truly.

• 1:13:08Lewis Howes?

  What do you think is going to happen after the next, after all of this has happened? What do you think will be the next phase of our existence after this year? Or however long this year turns into?

• 1:13:21Rob Bell?

  In times of disruption, trauma and tragedy, you either dig in your heels and give your energies to reclaiming the thing that got lost and making it great again. And idealizing it as once great. Or you let the pain and disruption break you open and you find the seeds of imagination to build a new thing. And right now, it happened after 9/11. After 9/11, you could see, just go kill the people who did this, and just raise the flag even higher. And you know what? Let's cover an NFL field with an entire flag. Let's have soldiers around, let's have F-14s fly over our head, just to make sure we know this game is happening in America.

• 1:14:06Rob Bell?

  Let's just double down on, we're the greatest ever. And then after 9/11, you also had people go, why do these people do not like us? Is this about oil? Is this about violence? Is this about who America is in the world? Let's ask better questions about what it means to be global citizens. So you're seeing it all over again. You are seeing an invitation, because the political is always personal. So the political is just the macro of the personal. So whenever someone's like, "I'm not political," they get out. Political is just all of us together. So all the stuff that happens as an individual, the political is just the larger amalgamation of that.

• 1:14:49Rob Bell?

  So whenever you wonder, why are all those people doing that? Jessica asked, why does one person respond that way? So I think, well, we're seeing it. As always, it's the same ancient invitation. You dig in your heels, you get smaller, you constrict, and you try to make this country more how it was supposed to be, which generally means everybody looked like us. Or you go, hey, it's way more diverse. How awesome is that? And it's sticky, and it's got all these challenges. So let's see what the next America looks like. You can see it at every level. And it's always, always masquerades as an intellectual argument,

• 1:15:34Rob Bell?

  but it's actually just a posture of the heart. Are you open or are you closed? Are you up for the new thing that we haven't seen yet? Or are you desperately trying to just get back to an earlier thing that made more sense? Disorientation, reorientation. Yeah. All this is so not new. You know what I mean? If you're like me and you've been giving your life to sort of trying to understand the larger patterns, this whole thing is nuts. I'm like everybody else. I wake up in the morning like, what the? On what planet do I have to wear a mask for two different things? With these forest fires? This is all entirely new.

• 1:16:18Rob Bell?

  And it's as ancient and predictable.

• 1:16:23Rob Bell?

  It's a pattern. There's an upheaval. People have a choice.

• 1:16:29Lewis Howes?

  There's seasons of this. It'll happen and then it'll be more stable for a period of time.

• 1:16:34Rob Bell?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:16:34Lewis Howes?

  Something will happen.

• 1:16:36Rob Bell?

  Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:38Lewis Howes?

  Just being okay with the uncomfortable.

• 1:16:41Rob Bell?

  And always looking for spirit is lurking in all of it. Spirit's lurking in all of it.

• 1:16:50Lewis Howes?

  I'm gonna ask you a question you probably don't like answering.

• 1:16:55Rob Bell?

  I love it. This is the first question where you've added to the question. You've like loaded the question.

• 1:17:02Lewis Howes?

  I feel like any spiritual leader or spiritual advocate, religious advocate, gets either asked this a lot or they don't like it. Maybe I'm wrong.

• 1:17:16Rob Bell?

  Now I'm really, now I'm like, let's do this question.

• 1:17:20Lewis Howes?

  Is there a God? What is God, if there is?

• 1:17:27Lewis Howes?

  With the atheist, the Sam Harris atheists that I've had on and people of different religious backgrounds and I feel like people always want to know what this answer is. I'm just curious where you're at and what you're, what, is there a God and what is God?

• 1:17:43Rob Bell?

  The question is,

• 1:17:46Rob Bell?

  what is the nature of this experience we're having? And here's the problem with the God question. We are having this experience. Everybody you just mentioned, we all are here, we're conscious, we're aware, and we're having this experience. So, the question has never been, is there a God or not? The question is, what is the nature of the experience we're having? And traditionally, God was the name for the depth and the ultimate source of this experience.

• 1:18:21Rob Bell?

  So whenever people want to talk, the moment you've proved God, you've just denied that God, because that God exists in all the same categories as everything else. You know what I mean? So when the person comes in and says, "I'm gonna prove there's a God," and this person goes, "No, I'm gonna prove there's not a God." Well, those are just two dualities. This, and then this is defined, an atheist is a not-theist. But if there's a source to this experience we're having, that source would have to be the source of the categories. Of both of them. Are you with me? Okay, so the very nature, those are called dualities, the very nature of this experience, then, if there is a source to it, that source would transcend whatever categories you've come up with.

• 1:19:06Rob Bell?

  So there has to be a creator of the source? Yes, a source of the source. And this is why people always get bungled up in it, is the one person sets out the believer to prove that God exists, but you've just proved a thing, that if you could prove it, you've proved it over and against it not existing. So you just shot yourself in the foot. This person says, "There is no God," whatever they mean by that, but they're here having an experience with the rest of us. So I would always say, absolutely just not the God that's contained in the question that asked if there's a God. Is there a God? Yes, just not the one in that question. Which, what is that one in that question? So then I would say, here's an example.

• 1:19:49Rob Bell?

  Is the universe a cold, dark place of lack? Or is the universe a place of endless love and generativity? Yes. The both. Right, right, right. So something within you, the nature of this experience is vast and diverse, and blows your hair back one minute and then crushes your heart in another. Those, to me, are the interesting questions. What is the nature? And the reason why I ask that is, for Lewis Howes, in your experience, which story are you living?

• 1:20:34Rob Bell?

  Like, which story, when you line up with it?

• 1:20:39Rob Bell?

  Lines you up with something bigger than yourself. Like, is it better to forgive everybody who's wronged you? Or is it a better way of life to hold on to all that bitterness? And let it eat you away?

• 1:20:53Rob Bell?

  Those, to me, are actually the much better God questions. Is economically, which is the better story? Just get your peace, step on everybody you have to, and then stockpile? Or there's enough for everybody?

• 1:21:11Rob Bell?

  Let's arrange ourselves in a way that distributes it in a way that acknowledges the dignity of every person to have their basic needs met. And those aren't cheesy cliché sort of those are like actually the questions. Those, to me, are actually the God questions. There's this ancient story about Moses wants to know God's name and God says, "I am."

• 1:21:33Rob Bell?

  So in the book, I do a whole thing on "I like I am. Is there a God? I am." Being itself. Less a noun and more a verb. Less does it exist and more what is the nature of the thing that we all agree does exist? Less you stand over it and prove it and more something you're caught up again. I tell the story about when I was in seminary,

• 1:22:04Rob Bell?

  this feeling that you can pin down the butterfly.

• 1:22:09Rob Bell?

  And the moment you can pin down the butterfly so that it's perfectly still and you can study it is the exact moment the butterfly can't fly.

• 1:22:19Rob Bell?

  So

• 1:22:21Rob Bell?

  the moment you can pin down the ultimate source so you can just study it in all of its exact detail is the moment you're not actually talking about source.

• 1:22:33Rob Bell?

  And that, that, that's

• 1:22:35Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting.

• 1:22:35Rob Bell?

  About God.

• 1:22:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I grew up in a religion, I think you know, it's called Christian Science. And in the religion, the definition of God is love with a capital L. Just like up on the church was God is love, capital L. And God is life, truth, you know, love, mind, all capital letters.

• 1:22:54Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:54Lewis Howes?

  And it's

• 1:22:55Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:55Lewis Howes?

  It's the, uh, the energy of it. It's not like God is this thing.

• 1:23:00Rob Bell?

  Right.

• 1:23:00Lewis Howes?

  It's in us.

• 1:23:01Rob Bell?

  Right, right, right. Right. And, and what we've seen over especially past hundred years, the God who's somewhere else, the object somewhere else, who may or may not intervene in this place from time to time. Um, that God has died. Uh, a number of people talk about how, uh, God died in the Holocaust. Like six million people dying and whoever that super being is doesn't show up. Okay. So, so one of the things I think is a lot I've noticed has helped for a lot of people is just say some gods die. Maybe it worked for you for a while, but some gods die. It's okay.

• 1:23:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, because

• 1:23:37Rob Bell?

  That way of ordering things in your mind, that way of, um, doesn't work anymore. Okay, that God died.

• 1:23:43Lewis Howes?

  Cause it's hard for someone to ask the question, why did this happen to six million people? If God up in the sky is

• 1:23:51Rob Bell?

  Whatever that framework was.

• 1:23:52Lewis Howes?

  Supposed to be looking out for us.

• 1:23:53Rob Bell?

  Yeah. Whatever that framework is, if that was the framework, it can't sustain that event. So, out with that framework. And for a lot of people, especially like your listeners who grew up in religious settings that taught them away of the world. And then that way no longer works. And they're like, what the? It's completely normal and healthy to let an old understanding, you're gonna be okay. You're gonna be okay.

• 1:24:20Lewis Howes?

  Just like we've talked about this whole episode, something is always needing to die or leave.

• 1:24:25Rob Bell?

  Yeah, it's okay.

• 1:24:25Lewis Howes?

  And we're always gonna need to creating something new within ourselves, within relationships, like structures need to die.

• 1:24:33Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:33Lewis Howes?

  And we need to create something new as we evolve.

• 1:24:35Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:24:36Lewis Howes?

  And one of your talks, you talked about the world is constantly like evolving and expanding. I remember the, the whiteboard.

• 1:24:42Rob Bell?

  The triangle.

• 1:24:43Lewis Howes?

  We start, yeah. And everything is constantly growing. The universe is growing.

• 1:24:47Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:48Lewis Howes?

  Constantly, right?

• 1:24:49Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Lewis Howes?

  And things need to die and things need to be created in order for it to grow.

• 1:24:55Rob Bell?

  Yes, it's how it works, death and rebirth. There's a great theologian, Paul Tillich, who described God as the ground of our being. And there's a friend of mine, Rabbi Nachum, who defines God as a living presence. The sense that you're here, that you're not alone, that there's something that binds us together.

• 1:25:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:20Rob Bell?

  That there's something sustaining us and inviting us into new futures.

• 1:25:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:27Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:28Lewis Howes?

  I think, I don't know if it's the country Bhutan that practices thinking about their death five times a day? And they're supposed to be like some of the happiest people in the world. I think it's the country Bhutan.

• 1:25:39Rob Bell?

  Nice, oh yeah, sure.

• 1:25:40Lewis Howes?

  Where they think about their death five times a day and they're supposedly the happiest people, the happiest country

• 1:25:45Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:45Lewis Howes?

  in the world. And I think when we embrace the fact that it's not the end of the world when something dies, or my death, it's like we bring more presence to what you've been talking about, that this is the only moment. Don't focus on the anxiety of my death tomorrow, a hundred years from now, whatever it may be, focus on this moment.

• 1:26:07Rob Bell?

  And I think-

• 1:26:08Lewis Howes?

  It'll bring me more joy and happiness.

• 1:26:09Rob Bell?

  Absolutely.

• 1:26:10Lewis Howes?

  Which brings me closer to Source, Universe, God.

• 1:26:13Rob Bell?

  Absolutely. And you're gonna see, I mean, think about, like you see that footage, let's just pick some random Middle Eastern country. Somebody dies and you see that footage of everybody throwing themselves on the casket as it's led through the village and they're mourning and wailing and sort of sophisticated Westerners like, oh, it's so primitive. It's so sort of, uh. And then people go to a funeral here and everybody dresses up and sits perfectly still, apologizes for a tear during the eulogy. And you think, which one is the more primitive response to death? The, and that the naturalness of death. So our ancestors, what, 300 years ago, 400 years ago?

• 1:26:56Rob Bell?

  Birth happened, your mom was like in the tent, thousand years ago. That tent, maybe the next room over, next tent over. And then when grandpa died, he laid down in the tent and stopped moving. So you and I, 500,000, 2000 years ago, life and death, the comings and goings happened right here.

• 1:27:18Lewis Howes?

  In front of us.

• 1:27:19Rob Bell?

  Completely natural part of this experience we're having. And now they happen, I don't know, in a hospital for Larson Lights somewhere. So no wonder people have difficult times with the death that always brings about a rebirth that's endlessly happening in our lives.

• 1:27:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:37Rob Bell?

  We're cut off from this as a natural thing of life, which you're seeing people rediscover. Just the fact that we're talking about it now.

• 1:27:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:44Rob Bell?

  We're rediscovering all this.

• 1:27:46Lewis Howes?

  Couple of final questions for you.

• 1:27:47Rob Bell?

  I love it.

• 1:27:48Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask these questions, if you guys want better questions and better answers, make sure you check out this book right now. Everything is spiritual. Who we are and what we're doing here, which is a question a lot of people have. You're gonna be fascinated by this book. Make sure you check it out. Every piece of content that Rob Bell puts out, I try to dive into. And I feel like I'm a better human being when I dive into it. So make sure you check this out. Check out your podcast, social media. You are Real Rob Bell on both Instagram and Twitter. Robbell.com as well.

• 1:28:22Rob Bell?

  There we go.

• 1:28:23Lewis Howes?

  Where you can, if you want to be coached by Rob, he's doing something very special right now where he's bringing on small groups of people to really help them get unstuck in their stuckness. You can check out all this fascinating stuff that he's doing at Robbell.com. And hopefully you'll be able to tour again in the future because if you've never seen him live, you need to see him live. It's a special treat. It's a spiritual experience.

• 1:28:47Rob Bell?

  I miss it so much.

• 1:28:48Lewis Howes?

  That's where you shine.

• 1:28:49Rob Bell?

  I miss it so much.

• 1:28:50Lewis Howes?

  It's your giftedness.

• 1:28:51Rob Bell?

  It's like walking the dog the other day. And I got tears in my eyes thinking about how much I love a room, a theater full of people and we're all about to have an experience.

• 1:29:02Lewis Howes?

  You're recreating your nineteen year old rock band. That is love to you.

• 1:29:08Rob Bell?

  We are who we are.

• 1:29:09Lewis Howes?

  You're recreating it.

• 1:29:11Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:12Lewis Howes?

  That's the times that brought you the most joy, the memories, and you create that now in a different version. In a re-engineered way.

• 1:29:19Rob Bell?

  I'll just own it. Yes.

• 1:29:20Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 1:29:20Rob Bell?

  That's exactly how it works.

• 1:29:23Lewis Howes?

  So you guys, make sure you check this book out. A question I have for you is, what's the question you wish more people asked you that don't ask you?

• 1:29:31Rob Bell?

  That is really interesting to me because a couple of different people have asked that. And I, I don't think about life like that. I don't, I would have said it. I'm, I'm much more interested in who this person is I'm with. And who are they and what's it been like to be them? And I just assume whoever I'm interacting with has some gift for me, for us. So it's funny, every time I'm asked that question, like, it's not how I see it. Like some, there's something that I just wish you, I'll just tell you, otherwise, let's talk about you.

• 1:30:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Okay, I've, I've asked you your three truths and your definition of greatness in previous interviews. So if you guys want to hear that, make sure you go check out the previous interviews. We'll link them up. And they're gonna blow you away, these interviews as well. So I'll ask you this question, which I don't know if I've asked you, and it's what's your definition of love?

• 1:30:34Rob Bell?

  Love, here's my definition. I'm in my kitchen.

• 1:30:40Rob Bell?

  Kristen's there.

• 1:30:43Rob Bell?

  This year, we celebrated twenty-six years of marriage.

• 1:30:45Lewis Howes?

  Wow, congrats.

• 1:30:47Rob Bell?

  She's like the best. It's like we're just getting started. We have three kids. One of them has their phone out and is playing songs on the speaker in the kitchen. One of them is showing us all something from TikTok.

• 1:31:02Rob Bell?

  My daughter is wearing a bucket hat. She's eleven.

• 1:31:06Rob Bell?

  Saying something funny like, "Bro."

• 1:31:10Rob Bell?

  And the dog is there. And there's food around. And I'd rather be nowhere in the universe. So love is less an abstract.

• 1:31:23Rob Bell?

  Concept or feeling and more

• 1:31:27Rob Bell?

  something we're in.

• 1:31:30Rob Bell?

  So like, that'll be tonight. Probably a couple hours. Yeah, that's right now when you ask, right now in 2020 on this day, when you ask me about love. And there's a pandemic. And there's massive social unrest for some very heartbreaking and good reasons. There's forest fires, so you can't be outside because the water, the air quality, there's massive political polarization and upheaval. We don't know how long we're gonna be in our house under lockdown. But we'll be there together. And they'll be playing some song and we'll be laughing.

• 1:32:11Rob Bell?

  And all is not well, but all is well. There's so much pain and suffering in the world. And we're here, we're alive and we're going through it together.

• 1:32:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:25Rob Bell?

  So there's nowhere I'd rather be.

• 1:32:28Rob Bell?

  That's love for me right now.

• 1:32:29Lewis Howes?

  That's a nice definition.

• 1:32:31Rob Bell?

  Yeah, it is. Really is.

• 1:32:35Lewis Howes?

  Well, I always appreciate you, my man. I always appreciate your friendship, your wisdom. I'm grateful for your, how you show up consistently.

• 1:32:42Rob Bell?

  Glad we know each other.

• 1:32:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, man. It's a beautiful thing, so.

• 1:32:45Rob Bell?

  I love your questions.

• 1:32:46Lewis Howes?

  Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.

• 1:32:48Rob Bell?

  Really meaningful.

• 1:32:49Lewis Howes?

  Make sure you guys get the book. Everything is spiritual. It's gonna be a game changer for you. Get it for a friend. Especially during this time, you're gonna need this right now. It's gonna be very helpful. Check out Rob's podcast as well and you'll be a better person by doing that. So, Rob, thanks, man. Appreciate you.

• 1:33:05Rob Bell?

  My pleasure.

• 1:33:07Lewis Howes?

  Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm telling you, I did not want it to stop because Rob always shares incredible wisdom to help us make mysterious things less complicated in the world. We have so much going on in the world and our inner world has a lot going on as well. And I always want to simplify these things to make our lives just a little bit smoother. A little less chaotic in all of the chaos that's happening. And how do we truly find peace in chaos? And that's one of the reasons why I love having Rob on the podcast. If you haven't listened to our previous interviews, we'll have those in the show notes. Just go to LewisHowes.com/1018.

• 1:33:49Lewis Howes?

  You'll see all the notes of the previous interviews, which will blow your mind as well. We talked about in those, make sure to check those out. But please share this with a friend, someone you think that would be inspired to have more spiritual tools to guide them for inner peace, mastering grief and understanding God and the universe and the world during these times. So share this link, LewisHowes.com/1018. Or just copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, places like that. And if you want to have inspirational messages sent to your phone from me every single week, then join my texting list. Just text the word PODCAST right now to 614-350-3960, and I'll send you inspirational and motivational messages every single week.

• 1:34:34Lewis Howes?

  And again, please tag Rob Bell over on social media when you're sharing this out. Tag myself as well, so we can stay connected over there. And I can thank you for listening and connecting to this episode. And I want to leave you with this quote from a French novelist, Anna S. Neen, who said, "The possession of knowledge does not kill the sense of wonder and mystery. There is always more mystery." As you know, I'm a very curious person. With over a thousand episodes, I'm always asking questions. And even when I believe I've got the answers to one question, there always seems to be a few more questions behind that. But it's okay.

• 1:35:16Lewis Howes?

  As long as we're on the journey to finding peace with all the mystery and doing our best every single day, that's all we can really ask for. And I want to remind you that you have not been reminded lately that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And you know what time it is? It's time to go out there and do something great.