Napoleon Hill: The Self-Help Scammer Scion | 199

Napoleon Hill spent decades claiming he was mentored by millionaires and advised U. S. presidents – at a time when almost no one could fact check him. Obsessed with becoming rich and famous, he eventually pulled it off with his book, Think and Grow Rich, which became the template for modern mindset scams. Its legacy runs straight through Tony Robbins, The Secret, and every manifest-your-millions coach who insists your bank account is empty because your attitude is wrong. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to Scamfluencers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Sarah Hagi?

  Sachi, you have famously written two books, which you can all purchase right now. And you are an avid reader. But I want to know, if you had to write a self-help book, what would it be about?

• 0:17Scaachi Koul?

  I kind of think I did.

• 0:19Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, you kind of did.

• 0:20Scaachi Koul?

  My second book is about, it's called Sucker Punch, available everywhere books are sold. And it was about divorce, so I feel like that was it. It was like, here's how you do it in the ugliest, least helpful way possible. But I do think it was kind of a self-help book.

• 0:33Sarah Hagi?

  It was. It was quietly self-help, let's say. I don't actually read any proper self-help books. I'm not against them, but you know, I just, I'm not into them. But I feel like it would be really easy to come up with something kind of like let-them-esque. Like, don't let them.

• 0:50Scaachi Koul?

  Right.

• 0:51Sarah Hagi?

  Stop them, in fact. Stop them. Don't let them, stop them. You're in control.

• 0:55Scaachi Koul?

  We should write that together.

• 0:57Sarah Hagi?

  Right. You're hearing it here first, guys.

• 0:58Scaachi Koul?

  OK, nobody take this idea.

• 1:00Sarah Hagi?

  Well, today, I'm going to tell you about the guy who basically invented self-help, the godfather of positive thinking and an absolute all-time master of self-hype. A man who failed at every single thing he ever did, except selling Americans a total delusion.

• 1:22Sarah Hagi?

  It's 1923, and two great men are shaking hands for the first time. One of them is Thomas Edison. The father of the light bulb is in his 70s, but with his serious face and a cloud of white hair, he's still an imposing presence. He's wearing a suit with the jacket unbuttoned over a dark waistcoat. And he's at an event called the Edison Convention of Dealers, which I'm pretty sure is just a fancy name for a meetup of guys who sell his products. Edison is standing next to another very important person, at least in his own mind, a 39-year-old entrepreneur and magazine publisher named Napoleon Hill. Napoleon is trim and dapper with neatly combed dark hair.

• 2:06Sarah Hagi?

  He's wearing a three-piece suit, and he's not intimidated by Edison at all. After all, Napoleon has been interviewing geniuses for years.

• 2:16Sarah Hagi?

  For the past 15 years, Napoleon has been learning from great men like former president Woodrow Wilson, business titans like Andrew Carnegie and Henry Ford, and inventors like Alexander Graham Bell. And now, he has generously decided to share the secrets of their success in a magazine called Napoleon Hills Magazine. One of the biggest ideas he's gleaned from all these interviews is that you'll make more money if you treat people well. That's why Napoleon is here today, to give Thomas Edison a medal for following the Golden Rule. You're probably familiar with the Golden Rule, Scaachi. Treat other people the way you'd like to be treated. Normally, people talk about the Golden Rule as a moral value, but Napoleon views it a little differently.

• 3:01Sarah Hagi?

  Can you read what Napoleon wrote about the Golden Rule a few years earlier?

• 3:05Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, he wrote, "Seems ridiculous to refer to the Golden Rule as a weapon, but that is just what it is, a weapon that no resistance on earth can withstand."

• 3:16Sarah Hagi?

  It is so boy to take something as simple as the Golden Rule and be like, "It's a gun! It's a gun, and nobody can beat my gun."

• 3:26Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, yes.

• 3:27Sarah Hagi?

  Come on.

• 3:28Scaachi Koul?

  Also, it's just plain stupid.

• 3:30Sarah Hagi?

  It's stupid.

• 3:31Scaachi Koul?

  But, you know, one thing at a time.

• 3:32Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. And you're probably asking, what does it mean to treat the Golden Rule as a weapon? Well, for instance, if you give someone an award, they might feel obligated to take a picture with you. Maybe that's why Napoleon shuffles closer to Thomas as he hands over the medal. The two men are practically touching when the camera flash goes off. Here's a photo. Scaachi, can you describe it?

• 3:55Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, this is like those photos that go viral every so often online of like a couple, where it'll show like the lines of their bodies. Like, if somebody's angled away, it means they secretly hate their girlfriend or whatever. But Napoleon's looking right at him, and Edison is looking at the camera and seems like, kind of, disinterested. It's awkward.

• 4:18Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, it's definitely not a great photo, but, you know, photos were hard to take back then. And as soon- As a photo op is over, Edison takes off the medal and hands it right back. Because he has no idea who Napoleon is, and he does not care about this ridiculous award. And honestly, Edison is right to dismiss him. Because Napoleon has never interviewed or even met Andrew Carnegie, Henry Ford, or Woodrow Wilson. And while he's started a lot of businesses, they've all been failures. He's been lying through his teeth to look successful and sell magazines. Luckily for Napoleon, it doesn't matter if Edison keeps a medal. What Napoleon wanted was the photo.

• 5:01Sarah Hagi?

  Proof that he actually met Thomas Edison. Napoleon is building an entire career by pretending he's got the ear and endorsement of the rich and powerful. He basically invents the influencer hustle a century early and sells the world on a new idea. That mindset alone can rewrite your destiny. And even though his career is built on lies, it will launch one of the most enduring and influential self-help brands in history.

• 5:34Speaker 02

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• 6:03Speaker 03

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• 6:34Speaker 04

  Confidence, it's listening to your gut. It's moving forward even when the path ahead is unclear. For nearly 160 years, Pacific Life has helped people keep their promises, building confidence for generations. Whether you're confident in your financial future or just beginning to envision it, we're here to help. Ask a financial professional how. Pacific Life, the power of a promise. Pacific Life Insurance Company, Omaha, Nebraska, and in New York, Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona.

• 7:06Sarah Hagi?

  From Wondery, I'm Sarah Haggie. And I'm Sachi Cole. And this is Scamfluencers.

• 7:20Sarah Hagi?

  Napoleon Hill was obsessed with becoming rich and famous. And eventually, he figured out how to do it by telling other people how to become rich and famous. His 1937 book, Think and Grow Rich, is basically the template for modern-day positive mindset influencers like Tony Robbins, the authors of The Secret, and every Manifest Your Millions coach who insists your bank account is empty because your attitude is wrong. Napoleon spent his entire life lying about being mentored by millionaires and advising presidents. He told so many lies that sometimes it's hard to figure out what the truth even is. But we did our best because this guy is one of the grandfathers of all self-help scams.

• 8:05Sarah Hagi?

  This is Napoleon Hill, the self-help scammer scion.

• 8:12Sarah Hagi?

  Oliver Napoleon Hill was born in 1883. But since he spent most of his life going by Napoleon, that's what we'll call him. Almost everything we know about Napoleon's early life comes from his unpublished autobiography, which unsurprisingly paints him as a humble hero. He writes about growing up in rural Virginia amid crushing poverty to a family he describes as ignorant, illiterate farmers, even though his dad actually owns and operates a printing press. Napoleon describes himself as a wild child who likes to run around the woods with a pistol. But then, he says, his life changes forever on his 12th birthday. His stepmom gives him a typewriter and tells him that his writing will make him famous someday.

• 8:58Sarah Hagi?

  By age 15, Napoleon's using that typewriter to write freelance news stories for local publications. Of course, there isn't always a lot going on in his small town, so when he doesn't have a true story to sell, he just makes one up.

• 9:13Scaachi Koul?

  I know this is wrong, and obviously, we've had a lot of scam artists on this show who've made up news, but this is entrepreneurial at his age.

• 9:21Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, and who's gonna fact-check it, you know?

• 9:24Scaachi Koul?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:25Sarah Hagi?

  Well, according to Napoleon, when he's 15, a local girl accuses him of getting her pregnant. He says he's forced to marry her, but then, shortly after the wedding, she confesses that, actually, he's not the father and the marriage is annulled. This leaves Napoleon free to finish high school. He follows that diploma with a year at business school, where he basically learns how to do secretarial work. Then he lands a job working for Rufus Ayers, a business tycoon who owns and manages coal mines and banks all over Virginia. Teenage Napoleon becomes a chief clerk at one of Rufus's mines. Then, he gets married, again. This time, his wife is a local schoolteacher named Edith.

• 10:11Sarah Hagi?

  In his autobiography, Napoleon writes about one of the defining moments of his young life. One day in 1904, 21-year-old Napoleon is busy at work. His day is interrupted when someone comes running in with urgent news. Apparently, two of Rufus's other employees have been out drinking all night, and their bender ended tragically when one of them dropped a loaded gun, accidentally killing a black bellboy at a nearby hotel. Napoleon wants to prove to his boss that he can handle himself in an emergency. So, according to him, he heads straight for the hotel, where he interviews the only eyewitness, who confirms that what happened was a total accident. And just to make sure there are no hard feelings,

• 10:56Sarah Hagi?

  Napoleon writes that he personally arranges for the bellboy's funeral and ensures the coroner lists the death as accidental.

• 11:06Scaachi Koul?

  I'm confident he did all of this out of the goodness of his heart. And I'm sure nobody thought to look too deeply into this death of a black bellboy. Sure, it went away really easily.

• 11:17Sarah Hagi?

  Well, that wasn't the only crisis for that day. One of the drunk employees was a teller at one of Rufus's banks and apparently left the bank unlocked when he went out drinking. This is another opportunity for Napoleon to take charge. So he runs over to the bank. In his autobiography, he describes the place as being completely ransacked, like it's been hit by a cyclone. The vaults are open and cash is scattered everywhere. At this point, he finally calls his boss. Rufus tells him to count the money to see how much was stolen. And this is where Napoleon inserts a little morality play. He says he realizes he could easily pocket a bunch of cash and claim the looter stole it.

• 12:02Sarah Hagi?

  But according to his autobiography, he only thinks about stealing from Rufus and doesn't actually do it. Instead, he writes, "He counted up the money and found that not a single dollar was missing." Rufus is so grateful for his honesty and his help that he promotes him, making Napoleon the youngest manager of a coal mine in the country. At least, according to Napoleon.

• 12:27Scaachi Koul?

  All this crime to become the youngest manager of the evil factory. People need to dream bigger.

• 12:36Sarah Hagi?

  I mean, listen, you're not the youngest manager of a coal mine.

• 12:39Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I know, but this is also like 100 million years ago. And it's like you could have done anything because nobody was doing stuff then. Things could have been invented. He could have made up any kind of job at this point.

• 12:50Sarah Hagi?

  Agree, and he needs to use his imagination. Because Rufus's company is a family-owned business, and he has two sons who will eventually take over one day. Napoleon knows there's a limit to how high he can climb. And Rufus knows it too. He actually encourages Napoleon to leave and find something that will help him realize his full potential, which means that soon Napoleon will be striking out on his own.

• 13:18Sarah Hagi?

  In March of 1905, Napoleon becomes a father. Later that year, he and his growing family leave Virginia for Alabama, where Napoleon is planning to enter a new industry: lumber. But before they can even get settled, Napoleon sends his wife and baby back to Virginia. We don't know exactly why he does this, but his reputation for regularly visiting sex workers probably has something to do with it. Keeping his distance from his family allows Napoleon to focus on work. According to his biography, he becomes a sales manager at a lumberyard and is quickly made a partner. But Napoleon has an unorthodox business model. He buys huge piles of lumber on credit

• 14:02Sarah Hagi?

  and then turns around and sells the wood extremely cheaply for cash, which he pockets, without paying their suppliers back.

• 14:11Scaachi Koul?

  This feels like that episode of It's Almost Sunny in Philadelphia where Dee is like talking about how she's scamming the restaurant she's working at by dropping double bills everywhere. And she's saying it so proudly, and they're like, "That's fraud. You can't do that." And she's like, "Well, I am." And so is he.

• 14:30Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, but it's so easy. It's so easy to do the fraud.

• 14:33Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, like, how could it be fraud if I can do it like with my eyes closed?

• 14:37Sarah Hagi?

  Exactly. Well, by 1908, things between Napoleon and his wife start to get ugly. We don't exactly know why, but it seems pretty clear that Napoleon just doesn't have it in him to be a good husband or father. But that doesn't stop him from kidnapping their baby. Not because he wants to raise the kid or anything. In fact, he drops her off at his mom's house and tells his wife he's leaving the country. Luckily, those plans fall through. His wife eventually manages to get the child back, and in April, she files for divorce. In the filing, she accuses Napoleon of threatening to kill her and physically abusing their daughter. Napoleon's official biography,

• 15:20Sarah Hagi?

  written years later by two of his followers, doesn't mention this wife at all. They just say that, at this time, Napoleon was, quote, "widely admired by young women as one of the community's most desirable bachelors."

• 15:36Sarah Hagi?

  Newly single, Napoleon gets back to scamming. In May of that year, he's arrested for check forgery. He's eventually acquitted, but then, in June, his business partner decides he's had enough. He dissolves their partnership and sells Napoleon his shares of the lumber company. By September, Napoleon's creditors have figured out what he's up to. There are warrants out for his arrest. So he tells one of his secretaries that he's stepping out to look at some local lumber mills and never comes back. Meanwhile, his biography claims that the business folded because of a bad economy. Napoleon needs a fresh start, so he's about to change his name, reinvent himself yet

• 16:18Sarah Hagi?

  again, and head straight for one of the most fertile breeding grounds for scammers: the nation's capital. Napoleon spends the last three months of 1908 on the run, but he needs to make money. So the next year, he settles down in D.C. and starts something called "The Automobile College of Washington." He claims he'll teach people how to make cars in just six weeks. Here's how it works. A company has hired Napoleon to make cars for them, but instead of opening a factory, Napoleon offers his students the opportunity to pay him to learn how to build these cars. They get a hands-on learning experience, and Napoleon gets paid by his client and his workers.

• 17:03Sarah Hagi?

  But that's not all. Once you graduate, Napoleon will teach you how to sell the cars. Graduates can become sales agents and earn commission. Promotional materials for the school say it should be very easy to earn $4,800 a year, which would be close to $170,000 today. But wait, there's more. Every student is encouraged to refer friends to the school, and they'll get paid for every friend who enrolls. Does this sound familiar to you, Sachi?

• 17:36Scaachi Koul?

  Uh, yeah. This is like every MLM scheme that we've ever heard about. It is nonsense. It is the weird jewelry company that your mom's friend's aunt keeps promoting on Facebook.

• 17:51Sarah Hagi?

  Yes.

• 17:52Scaachi Koul?

  Tale as old as time.

• 17:53Sarah Hagi?

  Doesn't work.

• 17:54Scaachi Koul?

  Never did.

• 17:54Sarah Hagi?

  Exactly. Napoleon has come up with an early form of multi-level marketing. He's also on the hunt for a third wife. 26-year-old Napoleon puts an ad in the local paper saying he's looking for a, quote, "refined young lady, preferably not over 18 years old." The ad works. He meets a high school student from a wealthy family named Florence, whose uncle used to be the governor of West Virginia. They get married about a week after she graduates from high school and have a kid about a year later. But even with all the free labor they're getting, the company that contracted Napoleon to make cars declares bankruptcy in early 1912.

• 18:36Sarah Hagi?

  We don't know why, but it might have had something to do with all of their merchandise being made by amateurs. And soon enough, the rest of the world is on to Napoleon, too. In April of that year, The Motor World magazine runs a three-page article exposing Napoleon's scammy advertising. But instead of giving up, Napoleon doubles down. He borrows money from banks, plus $4,000 from his wife's rich family, trying to save his school. But it doesn't work, and the automobile college closes. His official biography does admit that he invested too much of other people's money in the business, but maintains that it was otherwise completely above board.

• 19:20Scaachi Koul?

  I think it's nice that he has these biographers to whitewash his awful business record.

• 19:27Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, imagine tying yourself to someone exposed by Motor World magazine. Well, after this automotive MLM failure, Napoleon and his wife move to West Virginia. His in-laws help him get a cushy job at a local gas company, which he needs because he and Florence have a second baby on the way. But Napoleon isn't interested in a stable nine-to-five, so he starts trying to figure out what business he can start next. Around this time, there's a popular philosophical movement called new thought. It theorizes that how we think has a direct impact on how the world around us works. It's basically an early version of The Secret.

• 20:08Sarah Hagi?

  Napoleon decides to apply new thought principles to his next business. After all, if your thoughts can change the world, they can change the amount on your paycheck, right?

• 20:21Sarah Hagi?

  It's 1918, around five years after Napoleon moved to West Virginia, and James McCullough is starting to wonder if he's getting scammed. We don't know much about James, just that he's originally from Minnesota. But around this time, he goes to Chicago for an investment opportunity. He recently learned about something called the George Washington Institute, which offers courses in advertising. Its classes aren't just focused on sales, though. The institute promises that its students will learn about, quote, "the underlying psychological laws of business that attract success." The institute also claims that its founder, Napoleon Hill,

• 21:01Sarah Hagi?

  is to the educational world, quote, "what Andrew Carnegie is to the steel business."

• 21:08Scaachi Koul?

  That's the beautiful things about words, Sarah. Anybody can say anything. "Underlying psychological laws of business that attract success." You can say that. No one can stop you from saying it. What does it mean? Who knows?

• 21:19Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, and I do think it's pretty awesome to take education and turn it into a business, you know?

• 21:25Scaachi Koul?

  Hmm.

• 21:26Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I think it's good to commodify literally anything that you could ever possibly gain in this world. Well, James is intrigued, so he meets with Napoleon and learns that the institute isn't just a school. It's also an investment opportunity. You see, the institute is worth $100,000, and James can own a piece of it for $10 a share. James is all in. He invests about $1,600, which would be around $35,000 today, and even starts working for the school as a secretary. But two months later, James quits. We don't know why. It could be because the school's main lesson is obviously bullshit,

• 22:08Sarah Hagi?

  that if you have positive thoughts, good things will happen to you. But if bad things happen, it's your fault for being negative. Or maybe he was tired of Napoleon's ego. Napoleon wants to be in Congress, and he's asking his students to write letters of support for him. Sachi, can you read a little selection from the George Washington Institute's Lesson 3?

• 22:31Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it says, "I'm going to represent you in Congress, not because I need a congressional seat, I could make more money at advertising and teaching, but because I love you and all humanity, and I want to do something that will benefit humanity long after I have passed on."

• 22:47Sarah Hagi?

  I think what's amazing here is he's so impressively cloaked his narcissism in charity, which a lot of people do. But this is so naked and so transparent that there isn't even the patina that he's helping anybody other than himself.

• 23:01Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and it's also like, "I don't care if you like humanity and you want to do something that will benefit humanity. Big whoop. We all do."

• 23:11Sarah Hagi?

  Well, whatever it is that spooks him, James quits his job and tries to get his investment back. But Napoleon won't return his money. So James goes to the authorities. The state investigates Napoleon for violating Illinois consumer protection laws and concludes that the George Washington Institute isn't worth anywhere close to $100,000. The real number is more like $1,200. In June 1918, the state of Illinois issues a warrant for Napoleon's arrest. He promises to cooperate, but instead, he spends four days in hiding before ultimately posting bond and turning himself in. We don't know if James ever got his money back. And while he might be satisfied

• 23:54Sarah Hagi?

  to see Napoleon facing consequences for his actions, Napoleon isn't anywhere close to being done scamming. He's finally found his guiding philosophy and his favorite hustle. And he's about to find a new way to package it.

• 24:15Speaker 05

  Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organized crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand-new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts,

• 25:00Speaker 05

  and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 25:14Speaker 05

  Journalist Tristan Redman goes where no son-in-law should ever go, deep into his wife's family history, digging up the cold case of who murdered her great-grandmother.

• 25:23Speaker 06

  Because, I should mention, he thinks the murderer might actually be the beloved family patriarch. For the best binge-watch series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

• 25:43Sarah Hagi?

  It's January of 1919, about six months after Napoleon was arrested in Illinois. He's tried and failed with three scammy businesses, so he decides to go back to his roots: media. He starts a magazine called Hill's Golden Rule. It's basically the print version of the George Washington Institute, another way to spread the gospel of positive thinking. Napoleon calls it, quote, "a worldwide service in the interest of the human race." He writes and edits the entire magazine himself, but uses various pen names to make it look like he has a staff working under him. But as usual, he's not just preaching, he's also finding creative ways to make an extra buck.

• 26:27Sarah Hagi?

  Around this time, Napoleon befriends a couple from Texas who are looking for investors in their oil company. So Napoleon writes an article that's basically an ad in disguise. It's so misleading that when the FTC reads it, they charge him with fraudulent advertising.

• 26:45Scaachi Koul?

  I don't know a lot about what the FTC was doing back then, but I feel like it takes a lot for them to charge you with faulty advertising, even now.

• 26:53Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, this is legitimately like what you hear with like an influencer's Instagram captions, right?

• 26:59Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 26:59Sarah Hagi?

  Also, it wouldn't surprise you to know Napoleon's biography doesn't mention those charges. Instead, it claims that in 1919, his soul is, quote, "glowing with satisfaction at how well everything is going." But then, things start to sour between Napoleon and his publisher. Napoleon claims the friction is being caused by a jealous journalist named Bob Hicks, who is supposedly poisoning everyone against Napoleon. Eventually, things get so bad between Napoleon and his publisher that he has to quit the magazine. We can't verify this, but we do know that Hill's golden rule only lasts until 1920.

• 27:41Sarah Hagi?

  The following year, Napoleon bounces back with Napoleon Hill's magazine. Remember the one that allowed him to meet Thomas Edison? This is where Napoleon's philosophy really gets going. He starts calling himself a "business evangelist." He uses actual Bible quotes in his writing, but also inserts his own vaguely biblical platitudes. Things like, quote, "The most unhappy mortals on earth are those who receive nothing for their service except wages." And he creates a mail order course called "The Ladder of Success", which comes with printed materials and phonographic recordings of his speeches.

• 28:22Scaachi Koul?

  This literally sounds like something Eric Adams would do.

• 28:24Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, my haters are something.

• 28:27Scaachi Koul?

  I am willing to let the haters of my life climb the ladder of my success.

• 28:31Sarah Hagi?

  Yes.

• 28:31Scaachi Koul?

  This sounds like a business that he's gonna launch. I have no doubt about it.

• 28:37Sarah Hagi?

  The ladder of success. You know what? I'm using that one.

• 28:39Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, you can have it.

• 28:41Sarah Hagi?

  So at this point, Napoleon has plenty of content. What he really needs are more subscribers. So in 1922, he starts the Intro Wall Correspondent School. Like many of Napoleon's businesses, this one seems to have been someone else's idea. This time, it's a guy who was recently in prison for check forgery. He wants to send educational materials to people behind bars to better prepare themselves for life after release. Napoleon loves this idea, especially if the materials are his. But he needs money in order to print and deliver the materials. So he goes on a fundraising tour, including a stop at a small church in Shelby, Ohio.

• 29:26Sarah Hagi?

  He tells a congregation that every dollar they give will help some poor man in prison benefit from the awesome power of learning. The pitch is so compelling that members of the audience, including schoolchildren, donate $1,000. That would be almost $20,000 now. But according to the prison warden, the money never arrives. As usual, Napoleon blames someone else. He claims the priests made off with the donations, not him.

• 29:59Scaachi Koul?

  I mean, I guess the issue is that I am probably as distrusting of a priest as I am this literal snake oil salesman. Who stole the money? I don't know. Anybody is actually very likely to have been the culprit. I'm pretty sure it's not the children.

• 30:12Sarah Hagi?

  I'm pretty sure it's Napoleon. Pretty sure it's Napoleon. And you know what? He's dead. He can't sue me. You're right. He can't. He's a liar and we hate him. Well, like many of Napoleon's other ventures, the Intra-Wall Correspondent School is short-lived. It shuts down in late 1923 after about a year of existence. And if you're wondering whether all of this grifting leaves Napoleon any time to be a husband or father, it doesn't. Florence has been raising their children in West Virginia for more than a decade now. Napoleon has visited her just long enough to get her pregnant for a third time before taking off again. He sends money home, but he spends more on himself. As his biography puts it, quote,

• 30:57Sarah Hagi?

  "While his family lived modestly at best, Napoleon lived in nice hotels, entertained in popular restaurants, and maintained a wardrobe of fine suits." Napoleon bounces around the Midwest over the next three years. But in the fall of 1926, when he turns 43, something spooks him so badly that he drops off the map. We don't know what happened, but after a year or two underground, he finally emerges with his most audacious lie yet.

• 31:33Sarah Hagi?

  It's 1928 and Napoleon is lounging in a swanky Philadelphia hotel, waiting for a very important meeting. Since he got here yesterday morning, he's been generously tipping the workers so they'll treat him like a big shot. When a bellboy brings him a cigar, he makes a big deal of rejecting it for not being fancy enough. To be clear, none of the money he's spending is actually his. Some of it comes from his wife's family. The rest comes from his son, Blair. Blair was born without ears, but Napoleon was determined to teach him how to hear. When Blair was little, Napoleon pressed his mouth against his son's head and spoke into it, hoping Blair would hear the vibrations.

• 32:18Sarah Hagi?

  He claims that this, along with regular chiropractic adjustments, gave Blair access to 65% of his natural hearing capacity.

• 32:29Scaachi Koul?

  This is actually chiefly what is wrong with like the positive thinking, industrial, complex movement. They kind of make people think that if you believe hard enough, the literal impossibilities that they are convincing you of could happen.

• 32:46Sarah Hagi?

  Yes.

• 32:47Scaachi Koul?

  This kid is not going to improve from chiropractor if he doesn't have ears. Like, there's no way to spin this. It's just bullshit.

• 32:56Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, there's no way that is real. And it's crazy of him to lie in that way. It's just not how things work.

• 33:04Scaachi Koul?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:04Sarah Hagi?

  But thankfully, Blair seems to be thriving despite Napoleon's parenting style. He's a teenager now with his own backyard poultry business. In fact, Napoleon recently asked him for a loan to pay for the fancy hotel room he's staying in. Napoleon needed to keep up appearances because today, he's making the biggest pitch of his life. Finally, his guest arrives. Andrew Pelton, a publisher who specializes in self-improvement books and is deep into new thought philosophy. He's the perfect audience for what Napoleon is selling, an eight-volume opus called "Law of Success." And Sachi, eight volumes might sound like a lot,

• 33:47Sarah Hagi?

  but Napoleon tells Andrew there's a very good reason the book is so long. He claims that back in 1908, when he was on the run after his lumber company collapsed, he started working for a magazine and was assigned to interview Andrew Carnegie in his New York mansion. Carnegie is basically Napoleon's role model. He was born to a poor family in Scotland, but he became a steel magnate and eventually the richest man in the world. According to Napoleon, Carnegie invited him to spend the weekend so they could keep talking. During that weekend, Carnegie supposedly proposed a massive project. He suggested Napoleon interview hundreds of important men

• 34:31Sarah Hagi?

  and write a book about their principles of success. He told Napoleon it would take about 20 years. Oh, and Napoleon would have to write the book on spec. But Carnegie would provide introductions to all of the subjects. Then, according to Napoleon, Carnegie pulled out a stopwatch to time how long it would take him to respond to this magnanimous offer.

• 34:54Scaachi Koul?

  This seems to me like the fantasy of what Napoleon thinks is gonna happen or would happen here. When he's involved in his own myth-making, it's always like this fantasy of like, these titans meeting and these really ridiculous actions, kind of Bond villain bullshit sort of stuff. But it's all like fantasy. It's all in his head.

• 35:16Sarah Hagi?

  I think it's definitely made up, but in this fantasy, Napoleon said yes. And now he's telling Andrew that this eight-volume opus is a result of two decades of interviews with the most successful men in the world. Andrew is in. He agrees to publish the book. And Napoleon has a lot of ideas for marketing. He claims to have endorsements from former Presidents William H. Taft and Woodrow Wilson, among others. Something tells me these may not be legit, but they impress potential readers. And when Law of Success is published in 1928, sales are good enough for Napoleon to buy a Rolls Royce. He also attracts investors to help him buy a mansion in upstate New York, which he says

• 36:01Sarah Hagi?

  he'll turn into a "success school." And for the first time in more than a decade, Napoleon actually lives with his family again. In 1929, his wife and three sons move into the new house. But their reunion won't last long, because the Great Depression is about to hit, and even Napoleon's positive mindset can't overcome one of the biggest economic crises in history.

• 36:30Sarah Hagi?

  In October of 1929, the stock market crashes. In the midst of the Great Depression, Napoleon's book stops selling and the royalties dry up. In 1930, he publishes a second book called The Magic Ladder of Success. But it flops, and he winds up defaulting on the mansion in New York that was supposed to become his success school. Over the next few years, Napoleon tries all of his old tricks. He launches a magazine called Inspiration, and then another one called Success. He starts a publishing company to print success and sells unlicensed stock in it. But then, everything changes. Sort of. Here's Napoleon's version of the events.

• 37:14Sarah Hagi?

  In 1933, when he's about to turn 50, Franklin Delano Roosevelt asks him to work as a White House adviser and speechwriter. Napoleon claims he tells the president to pay him only $1 a year because he doesn't need compensation for serving his country. He says the selflessness earned him the nickname "Nap the Sap." Oh, and Napoleon also claims that he coined the phrase, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself."

• 37:43Scaachi Koul?

  He's Forrest Gump. Yes. He invented everything, he did everything, he was everywhere.

• 37:48Sarah Hagi?

  He was there.

• 37:48Scaachi Koul?

  It's our fault for not knowing.

• 37:50Sarah Hagi?

  Listen, Napoleon was there for everything, and he influenced all. But even Napoleon's biographers admit that there's very little evidence of a relationship between him and FDR. By this point, Napoleon's wife is finally ready to quit him. In 1935, she decides she wants a divorce. But she's been living with the kids in West Virginia for the past few years, where divorce isn't legal. So Napoleon's own dad pays for her to go to Florida to get the divorce.

• 38:22Scaachi Koul?

  Can you imagine being so evil that your dad, the guy you probably learned who to be evil from, that your dad helps finance the divorce so that your wife can get the hell away from you with your children?

• 38:37Sarah Hagi?

  No, truly.

• 38:38Scaachi Koul?

  Amazing.

• 38:39Sarah Hagi?

  This is all to say that Napoleon, who's now in his early 50s, is once again single. He's still traveling constantly, giving lectures wherever people have him. And he's practicing what he preaches by focusing on a concrete goal. He tells his audiences that he's looking for his dream girl. But maybe he should have been more specific, because the woman he's about to meet is way more interested in big scams than true love.

• 39:09Sarah Hagi?

  One day in Atlanta in 1936, Rosa Lee Bealyn joins a group of women going to a lecture on success. Rosa Lee is a 29-year-old with dark, wavy hair and a full mouth. Rosa Lee's mom died in childbirth. She was raised by her dad and her aunt. One of the things her dad always emphasized was that you can't please everyone, so you should focus on making yourself happy. Which means Rosa Lee is a woman who knows exactly what she wants, particularly when it comes to men. Before the talk begins, she's introduced to the speaker, 53-year-old Napoleon Hill. He gives her a thorough once-over, but doesn't stick around to chat.

• 39:51Sarah Hagi?

  He will later tell her it's because he assumed she's too beautiful to be smart.

• 39:57Scaachi Koul?

  I assume he told her this as if it was a great compliment, as if she'd be so thrilled.

• 40:02Sarah Hagi?

  I mean, listen, that's what I thought of you when we first met. But then I found out I'm actually neither. You aren't that smart.

• 40:07Scaachi Koul?

  Not that smart, not that beautiful, not that tall either.

• 40:10Sarah Hagi?

  No, you're...

• 40:11Scaachi Koul?

  Just a clunker all around.

• 40:13Sarah Hagi?

  You're just a voice to me, really.

• 40:14Scaachi Koul?

  That's what I hope I am to most people.

• 40:17Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Rosa Lee, meanwhile, thinks Napoleon is fascinating. He delivers his speech like a preacher delivering a sermon. Midway through, she realizes he's the man she's been looking for, and she's going to marry him. When Napoleon invites the audience to come talk to him afterward, Rosa Lee takes him up on the offer. This time, he doesn't play it quite as cool. In fact, he's so rattled that he tells her that they'll have to talk tomorrow, and he takes off. The next day, Napoleon explains that he was just overwhelmed because he was so lovestruck. He and Rosa Lee talk for five hours, and by the end of that conversation, they're engaged. A week later, they're married.

• 41:00Scaachi Koul?

  I don't see anything wrong with a quickie marriage between this 29-year-old woman who just met this man and this old guy with a string of scams behind him and an ex-wife who hated him so much that his dad helped her leave.

• 41:15Sarah Hagi?

  Sounds good. What more could a woman want?

• 41:17Scaachi Koul?

  It's like a Hallmark story.

• 41:18Sarah Hagi?

  Well, maybe they're actually perfect for each other because Rosa Lee has a plan. She wants them to become the it couple of self-help. Her vision is simple. Napoleon will publish another book about how successful he is. And then she can publish a book about how to meet and marry a successful man. Basically, she's a trad wife influencer just 100 years too early. But first, they actually have to write these books. And both of them are broke. So broke that they decide to move in with Napoleon's son, Blair. Remember Blair? He's married now as well, and he and his wife are living in a small apartment in Manhattan. As soon as they move in, Napoleon starts fighting with Blair's wife.

• 42:03Sarah Hagi?

  In fact, he bullies her so relentlessly that she ends up leaving the state just to get away from him. Blair gives Rosa Lee and Napoleon some money and follows his wife. With the apartment to themselves, Rosa Lee finally has the peace and quiet that she needs to write. First, she helps Napoleon write his new book. By the end of the process, her fingers are so blistered from typing that she has to tape them up so that she can keep going. But she tells Napoleon that it is, quote, "a pleasure to wear her fingers to the bone in such a labor of love." Or at least that's how he remembers it. Rosa Lee is also editing Napoleon as he goes, and the result is much more streamlined than his usual writing.

• 42:48Sarah Hagi?

  They sell the manuscript to Napoleon's regular publisher. But this time, the contract looks a little different. Because before they got married, Napoleon signed a prenup giving Rosa Lee the rights to his work. Probably to avoid having to pay any future profits to his ex-wife's children and various debtors. The manuscript is nearly called "Use Your Noodle to Win More Bootle," but instead it's published as "Think and Grow Rich."

• 43:16Scaachi Koul?

  I don't think it's surprising that I think it should still be, "Use your noodle to win more bootle." That is objectively better.

• 43:23Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it is. I mean, he's always talking about thinking, growing, rich, success, whatever.

• 43:27Scaachi Koul?

  What about, what about the bootles of the world, you know?

• 43:29Sarah Hagi?

  What about your noodle and the bootle?

• 43:30Scaachi Koul?

  What about your noodle and your bootle?

• 43:32Sarah Hagi?

  Well, even with this new title, it is a pretty big hit. Together, Napoleon and Rosalie buy a mansion in Florida. Napoleon tells everyone that he's a millionaire now, but Saatchi, he is absolutely not. Then, it's Rosalie's turn. In 1940, she publishes "How to Attract Men and Money" with Napoleon as her co-author. Saatchi, can you please read from one of his sections?

• 43:59Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, he says, "In our relationship, there is no room for jealousy, envy, or other destructive influences because our minds are completely full of positive thought and we are therefore constantly engaged in constructive deeds."

• 44:13Sarah Hagi?

  I mean...

• 44:14Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, sure.

• 44:16Sarah Hagi?

  Sure.

• 44:16Scaachi Koul?

  Okay.

• 44:17Sarah Hagi?

  Anyone who talks this way is arguing 24/7 and has the most toxic relationship in the world.

• 44:23Scaachi Koul?

  With themselves more than anybody. They are waging a war in their heads that is far worse than any external event.

• 44:31Sarah Hagi?

  Well, as you suspect, Napoleon can't manifest himself into actually being a good husband, especially once he starts traveling for lectures. Rosalie is pretty sure he's cheating on her while he's away, so she sends him to New York to do some business. And while he's gone, she calls a divorce lawyer. Then she sells all of their possessions, including Napoleon's beloved Rolls Royce. But she does keep one thing, the rights to Napoleon's books. Napoleon found success and then lost it all. Now, he's 57, broke, divorced again, and no longer owns the rights to his most successful work. And yet, he's still going to find a way to cement his legacy

• 45:16Sarah Hagi?

  for generations of American hucksters as a man who claims to have the secret to money and happiness.

• 45:28Speaker 07

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunt us.

• 46:13Speaker 07

  For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 46:28Speaker 05

  A trucker merges onto the I-10 in New Orleans. He checks his mirrors. The lane is clear. And then, boom, impact. A pickup truck, seemingly out of nowhere, scrapes down the side of his 18-wheeler, multiple passengers inside. One man flees the scene. And the driver of the pickup? He doesn't seem all that upset. It didn't feel like a regular accident, because it wasn't. Across the city, truckers are getting sideswiped, all on the same stretch of the same freeway. And behind many of the cases is one person, a Hollywood stunt woman turned personal injury lawyer named Vanessa Moda. This podcast is a story about fake accidents that lead to real consequences and a scheme that ends in betrayal and murder.

• 47:13Speaker 05

  Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 47:30Sarah Hagi?

  It's 1952, more than a decade after Napoleon and Rosalie divorced, and he's at a business luncheon in Chicago. Not much has changed in the intervening years. He released another book in 1941, but it didn't do well. Maybe that's because Rosalie wasn't editing him, or maybe it's because WWII was starting. Either way, Napoleon didn't let that stop him from meeting and marrying his fifth wife. Napoleon has just finished speaking at the luncheon when he's introduced to a businessman named W. Clement Stone. Clement cuts a distinct figure in a dark suit, starched shirt, and bowtie.

• 48:14Sarah Hagi?

  He tells Napoleon he makes all of his employees read Napoleon's book, Think and Grow Rich. He says it was instrumental in helping him build his insurance company, which is worth $30 million, or around $400 million today. The two men hit it off and decide to form the Mastermind Alliance. It's Napoleon's name for when two brilliant people get together to help each other change the world.

• 48:41Scaachi Koul?

  This sounds like the organization that Carmen Sandiego is investigating. It sounds like a joke from Captain Planet. What do you mean, the Mastermind Alliance?

• 48:51Sarah Hagi?

  He's playing pretend. He's just playing pretend with a rich guy. You know what I mean?

• 48:55Scaachi Koul?

  Right, yeah.

• 48:56Sarah Hagi?

  While Clement puts Napoleon on his payroll in August 1952, which means Napoleon has a steady job for the first time in decades. Early on, they collaborate on in-person retreat for Clement's employees. According to Napoleon's biography, after these retreats, quote, "Literally hundreds of salespeople found themselves operating at new performance levels." Then they start targeting the public. In 1953, they put out the first in a series of textbooks called The Science of Success. Clement throws his money, influence, and connections into the PR campaign. Sales are good, but Clement is spending so much money on advertising that they're still in the red. So they change their strategy

• 49:41Sarah Hagi?

  and go back to one of Napoleon's earlier tactics: direct mailing to individuals. Napoleon and Clement start getting lots of signups for home study courses. Around this time, Napoleon's philosophy starts picking up some well-known believers like Oklahoma evangelist Oral Roberts. Another pastor named Norman Vincent Peale uses Napoleon's lessons and speeches to his congregation, which includes a young man named Donald Trump. In 1962, Napoleon and his wife create the Napoleon Hill Foundation, which includes a franchising program that allows entrepreneurs to train in Napoleon's philosophy.

• 50:24Sarah Hagi?

  Once they're licensed as salespeople, they're allowed to market his courses and wisdom in their own communities. Sachi, are you ready to finally hear Napoleon speak? Here he is lecturing in 1963.

• 50:38Speaker 07

  There are so many people in this world who can see the hole in the donut, but they cannot see the donut around the hole. One with a positive mental attitude sees the hole in the donut all right, but he also sees the donut around the hole.

• 50:54Scaachi Koul?

  It's so crazy that this Elmer Fudd-looking ding-dong is like the charismatic leader these people are all following. He's just like some guy. He's giving a pretty like weird but dry speech in this like transatlantic accent. He's bald, he's got little glasses, he's in front of the flag, he's in a suit. He's just like a guy prattling on about positivity. Like, there's nothing exceptional about him.

• 51:20Sarah Hagi?

  No, he's truly not exceptional or remarkable at all. And as Napoleon's ideas make their way into the American mainstream, he also starts to become a little more out there. In his 1967 book, Grow Rich with Peace of Mind, he writes about being visited by a spirit from something he calls "the great school of the masters." According to Napoleon, the school is located in the Himalayas, and all of its teachers can teleport and communicate telepathically. The spirit tells him he's earned the right to reveal the supreme secret to the world, which turns out to be a list of the 26 enemies of mankind, including undependability, disloyalty,

• 52:05Sarah Hagi?

  and lust. Napoleon runs the foundation until he dies in 1970 at the age of 87. But that's not the end of his story, because now, the central issue for Napoleon Hill isn't his bank account, it's his legacy.

• 52:23Sarah Hagi?

  It's 2014 and journalist Matt Novak has just learned about Napoleon Hill from his girlfriend. Matt has dark hair and glasses and he works for the tech site Gizmodo. Here he is describing that conversation on the podcast, "The Dream."

• 52:38Scaachi Koul?

  She came up to me and said, "There's this guy named Napoleon Hill and you need to debunk him." And that's exactly what I set out to do because it was pretty clear that this was a guy with a lot to sell and not much substance behind it.

• 52:54Sarah Hagi?

  When Matt starts looking into him, he sees Napoleon's influence everywhere. His name recognition has dwindled since his death, but people who are deep in the business self-help world think of him as an OG. When the secret came out, they made a lot of noise about how those were originally Napoleon's ideas. When Matt starts reading a 1995 biography on Napoleon named "A Lifetime of Riches", he thinks it sounds like a fairy tale, a dramatic rags-to-riches story of a man who found a way to triumph over adversity and inspire countless others. Matt starts digging into the archives and quickly realizes that the book left out a lot of stuff. He wants to see how much more there is to the story.

• 53:38Sarah Hagi?

  So in November 2014, he sets up a call with Donald M. Green, the executive director of the Napoleon Hill Foundation. He really wants to see Napoleon's written archive, which the foundation controls. But Donald is tight-lipped and says that everything Matt needs to know is in the biography. Other than that, all he wants to do is list the people that Napoleon inspired. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, they're his disciples and his whole thing is like positive thinking. Don't look too deeply behind the curtain. Yeah, listen, it's all in the biography. If someone tells you it's all in the biography, listen to them. Don't make me tap the sign. And of course, when they get off that call, Matt is disappointed, but not deterred.

• 54:23Sarah Hagi?

  He keeps digging and his story finally runs on Gizmodo in 2016. It's 20,000 words long and pokes a ton of holes in Napoleon's mythmaking. Naturally, the foundation has no comment, and it's unclear if Matt's article has any impact on their business. The foundation continues to sell Napoleon's books and burnish his legacy. It also offers the opportunity to get certified through the Positive Mental Attitude Science of Success Leadership Course, which starts at just $299.95 for part one. Napoleon's philosophy is deeply entrenched in American culture today, from prosperity gospel churches to effective altruist tech bros, and in all of the ways we convince ourselves

• 55:08Sarah Hagi?

  that making money is a reflection of how good and smart we are, instead of how lucky.

• 55:16Sarah Hagi?

  Okay, Sachi, can you believe one pretty unsuccessful man is responsible for so much chaos, including kind of being responsible for MLMs?

• 55:27Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I actually can, because unremarkable men are responsible for everything that I don't like.

• 55:32Sarah Hagi?

  Unremarkable men usually make history.

• 55:35Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, over and over and over again, despite our best efforts. Yeah, I think what's amazing is that like, the organization itself that he built is also still in existence. Like, it's one thing for the ethos of it to permeate our culture, but the fact that his particular form of bullshit is still in existence is like, really fascinating to me.

• 55:56Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, the idea of positive thinking and having a positive mindset never really went away. I don't think it's bad to think positively or to like, have a positive mindset, but it is crazy that there's such an appeal that like, just doing something that's good for yourself, which is, you know, not being negative all the time, is like, so appealing to people in a business way, when it's just, it's so simple.

• 56:22Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and I really do think that like, the work of positive thinking is mostly a scam, too.

• 56:28Sarah Hagi?

  Of course.

• 56:29Scaachi Koul?

  I think it is designed to teach people to not fight and not raise any issues. I think it's inevitably tied to capitalism, because you want people to just be productive and shut their mouths and not complain. It's immediately suspect that his entire worldview is...

• 56:45Scaachi Koul?

  Just be happy and hope for the best when he is the kind of person who has left a trail of destruction behind him. He is the cause for so much misery.

• 56:54Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 56:55Scaachi Koul?

  But he thinks that fixating on it is like gonna hold you back in your career or you won't find the right man or whatever else. But that's because he's never had to face any consequences.

• 57:04Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, and also this idea that like it's all about you as an individual and nothing to do with, anything to do with circumstance or where you are in life or like the powers that control basically every aspect of our lives. I don't know, it just creates such an individualistic mindset, which also I think lends toward how it always costs so much money to be a part of these things, you know?

• 57:27Scaachi Koul?

  Well.

• 57:28Sarah Hagi?

  It's so depressing, it's so sad, and it just makes people think that like if you're not bootstrapping and doing it all yourself, you're not doing it correctly, right?

• 57:39Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I mean, I think the reality is that self-help books or organizations or pamphlets or the stuff you read online, that's a nice start, but they offer like an illusion of depth. You have to do all of that work on your own and you have to figure out how to put that into your life. Positive thinking can be really helpful and extremely powerful, but it isn't the only thing, you know? I think in the same way like that Let Them book is everywhere and people are starting to be like, hmm, it's not really the answer to all things. No, it's a starting point, you know? It's a, it's a place to begin, especially if you don't have good boundaries. So if you're a negative person like myself, I can see that a text about positive thinking can be enticing,

• 58:22Scaachi Koul?

  but it's like the first 5% of the work you have to do.

• 58:27Sarah Hagi?

  I think the lesson for me is that you wanna do some self-help? Just do it, like just figure it out on your own. Like you don't need, you don't need some, you don't need like a guide in that way. You know what I mean? Just be a person, it's fine.

• 58:40Scaachi Koul?

  I think my lesson is that I should be writing more of these self-help books. It's not that hard to scam people into buying them. They should buy mine. I'm gonna write a thousand and they're all gonna be called like Bitch Nation, How to Be a Bitch. I think somebody would buy that.

• 58:56Sarah Hagi?

  I think I would, absolutely.

• 58:58Scaachi Koul?

  You would buy Bitch Nation? You'd put like 10 copies on your coffee table.

• 59:01Sarah Hagi?

  I would pledge allegiance to the Bitch Nation flag, yeah.

• 59:04Scaachi Koul?

  I'm the president.

• 59:14Sarah Hagi?

  This is Napoleon Hill, the self-help scammer scion. I'm Sarah Haggy.

• 59:19Scaachi Koul?

  And I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected]. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were The Untold Story of Napoleon Hill, the Greatest Self-Help Scammer of All Time by Matt Novak-Frigasmo, A Lifetime of Riches, a biography of Napoleon Hill by Kirk Landers and Michael J. Ritt, and the article, Pointing the Easy Route to Get Rich Quickland, in The Motor World Magazine.

• 59:47Sarah Hagi?

  Zan Romanoff wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggy. Eric Thurm is our story editor. Fact checking by Gabrielle Drolle. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Free Sound Sync. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Janine Cornelo and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our senior producers are Sarah Enney and Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer-Beckman and Marshall Louie for Wondery.

• 1:00:29Scaachi Koul?

  Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.