Natalie Cochran: The Pharmacist Femme Fatale Part 2 | 184

When her Ponzi scheme starts to crumble – and her husband dies under mysterious circumstances – Natalie Cochran plays the perfect victim: a widowed mother of two, supposedly battling cancer while grieving her sudden loss. But behind her tears is a master manipulator. And soon, Natalie will face questions she can’t lie her way out of – from federal investigators and the national media. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to Scamfluencers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sarah Hagi?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:14Sarah Hagi?

  Sachi, how many times does your friend have to break dinner plans with you and be a flake before you realize they're full of shit?

• 0:22Scaachi Koul?

  For someone I don't know very well, I'll give you two chances and then I will never try again.

• 0:28Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I think for me, it just kind of starts becoming clear that we're living in different realities and the person obviously thinks I'm stupid. So, once that hits, it's basically over.

• 0:38Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, there's no coming back from stupid.

• 0:41Sarah Hagi?

  Well, this week, we're reconnecting with West Virginia pharmacist and cold-blooded husband-killer Natalie Cochran. Natalie has lied to everyone in her life about government contracts, baseball funds, cancer, her husband's death, and God knows what else. Now, friends, family, and law enforcement are all about to call her out on her bullshit.

• 1:08Sarah Hagi?

  It's February 21, 2019, and Donna Bolt is sick with grief. Donna is a 60-year-old retired nurse with long gray hair. And last week, she buried her only child, Michael Cochran. Today, she's sitting in her living room in West Virginia, surrounded by bookshelves filled with photos of Michael. Michael's death has been devastating for Donna, and it's not just the loss of her son. It's the way it happened. Less than two weeks ago, she received a text out of the blue from Michael's wife, Natalie. Attached was a picture of Michael on a ventilator. Five days later, he was gone. Natalie insisted on having the funeral just two days later

• 1:53Sarah Hagi?

  and refused to let Donna invite anyone. She also demanded that the funeral home take down Michael's obituary. Donna has always loved her daughter-in-law and her two grandchildren. But lately, they've been acting distant, and it's only gotten worse since Michael's passing. That's why Donna is surprised when she receives another text from Natalie. Thankfully, it's not bad news. Instead, Natalie is asking if Donna wants to invest more money into the Cochran's government contracting business. Donna and her husband have already invested their life savings into these companies, nearly $250,000.

• 2:34Sarah Hagi?

  Natalie promised them a million-dollar payout, but they haven't seen any money yet due to a series of issues, including an audit and a government shutdown. Today, Natalie says there's a new round of state contracts with huge 10-day profit returns. She adds that the state always pays on time, guaranteed.

• 2:56Scaachi Koul?

  I can't fathom being a mom, and my son is dead. He's barely cold, and my daughter-in-law is focused on the business and money and returns. That's so immediately disturbing to me. I can't imagine how Donna is feeling about it.

• 3:14Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, Donna might be disturbed, but she loves her daughter-in-law, and maybe Natalie is handling her grief by throwing herself into work. So Donna gives Natalie another $27,000. But soon, Donna will learn the truth. Natalie's companies haven't received a single government contract. They're a cover for her Ponzi scheme. And not only has Natalie stolen Donna's money, she's taken something far worse: her son. Donna will discover that Natalie murdered Michael. As word of Natalie's betrayal spreads, it unleashes a storm of scandal and media attention. And Donna's grief will fuel her tireless pursuit of justice.

• 4:03Speaker 02

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• 4:33Speaker 03

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• 5:03Speaker 04

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• 5:35Sarah Hagi?

  From Wondery, I'm Sarah Haggie. And I'm Sachi Cole. And this is Scamfluencers.

• 5:49Sarah Hagi?

  In our last episode, Natalie Cochran duped her small-town neighbors into investing in what turned out to be a Ponzi scheme. She went to extreme lengths to keep her con going, from creating a fake Federal Reserve employee to claiming to have cancer. And when her husband, Michael, started to suspect the truth, she poisoned him with insulin. Now Natalie appears to be a widowed mother of two, bravely battling cancer while grieving the sudden loss of her husband. For a moment, this story keeps her investors at bay. But soon, she'll face questions she can't lie her way out of, from federal investigators and the national media. This is Natalie Cochran, the pharmacist femme fatale, part two.

• 6:38Sarah Hagi?

  After Michael's death, people have a lot of sympathy for Natalie. But that can't last forever for her investors, because they also want answers on when they're getting paid. Natalie can't provide them, so she deflects, stalls, and lies through her teeth. But Natalie has another source of funds: the Youth Sports League bank account. She's the treasurer and the only person monitoring the accounts. So for a while, she's been helping herself to the league's money. For example, the league writes a check for more than $4,000 to TSG, one of Natalie's contracting companies, for uniforms that don't exist. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. You may remember from last episode,

• 7:22Sarah Hagi?

  Natalie sponsored a charity bingo event for local sports teams, where she promised winners semi-automatic rifles. They raised about $32,000. Natalie pockets half of it and donates the other half to the league. But the check bounces. On top of that, she's been using the league account for her own expenses, at places like TJ Maxx and Olive Garden.

• 7:48Scaachi Koul?

  Okay, so Natalie is also stealing money from kids who just want to play baseball, and all of that was worth killing her husband for. Very cool.

• 7:58Sarah Hagi?

  For months, Natalie has been spreading so many lies and avoiding all of the people she owes money to, which is basically her whole town. But one of her victims is about to get tired of waiting. They're going to get the police involved, and they have no reason to fall for her grieving widow act.

• 8:19Sarah Hagi?

  It's March 2019, and Lieutenant Tim Bledsoe is at his office in the West Virginia State Troopers Building in Beckley, West Virginia. Tim is a no-nonsense guy with wire-framed glasses, short hair, and a goatee. He's an investigator with nearly three decades of experience, and he's passionate about his work as a police detective. His mother was a nurse, and from a young age, he knew he wanted to help people. Lately, Tim and his partner Bob have mostly been working on cold cases. But today, Bob brings him a lead on an active financial crime. Bob has been talking to a legit firearms dealer who sold around $80,000 worth of guns to Natalie's company.

• 9:02Sarah Hagi?

  The dealer has only received about half of the money so far, and he hasn't been able to get Natalie to pay the rest. On top of that, the dealer has a friend who's also invested with Natalie. He hasn't got any of his money back either. This all sounds pretty fishy to Tim, so he and Bob decide to start investigating.

• 9:21Scaachi Koul?

  So Sarah, just to be clear, this investigation is happening because of a legitimate arms dealer that they have been dealing with? And now I think I have to root for the arms dealer? Because that's why an investigation is even happening into Natalie?

• 9:36Sarah Hagi?

  I think you should be rooting for justice, personally. I don't think it's necessarily a person. But Tim and Bob need to talk to people about Natalie's businesses, but they can't risk tipping her off. If Natalie realizes she's under investigation, she might try to destroy evidence. So they need to come up with a cover story. After talking to the medical examiner, they learn that Michael never had an autopsy. This gives them an opening: launch a new investigation into the strange circumstances of Michael's death. This way, they have an excuse to interview Natalie and her friends and family. But keep in mind, at this point, this is just a front. Tim doesn't suspect murder.

• 10:20Sarah Hagi?

  He just thinks Michael's death was strange, but ultimately tragic.

• 10:26Sarah Hagi?

  With their cover story in place, Tim and Bob start reviewing all of the paperwork. And they soon realize that no one has been paid any of the money they're owed. Natalie's not running a business. She's running a Ponzi scheme. At first, Tim assumes Michael was in on it as well. He thinks there's a chance Michael committed suicide or that one of the investors wanted revenge. But then, things start to get weird. On April 8, 2019, just a month after opening the case, Tim and Bob sit down with Natalie. At first, she repeats the story she's told before. Michael had a seizure. But Natalie seems unhappy about having to talk to them. And over the course of several interviews,

• 11:11Sarah Hagi?

  Natalie's story keeps changing. She tells Tim that Michael was taking illegal supplements, which were basically unregulated steroids from Mexico. But when Tim expresses concern that a potentially lethal drug could be coming into the US, she brushes him off. Then she claims Michael was using insulin to offset his steroid use and that he injected himself in the back.

• 11:37Sarah Hagi?

  This all strikes Tim as pretty strange. And as he collects more evidence, things only get stranger. Tim reviews texts sent between Natalie and Michael, and they tell a very different story. Michael trusted Natalie. He thought their government contracts were legit and had no idea she was running a Ponzi scheme. Natalie sent Michael the same fake documents she showed everyone else and even talked to him about Betsy, the fake Federal Reserve employee who was supposedly helping them get paid. And once Tim realizes Michael didn't know about the fraud, he becomes genuinely curious about Michael's death. If nothing else, the timing is suspicious.

• 12:23Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, there is a lot that is suspicious, including the idea that this man was injecting himself in the back with insulin to offset his own steroid use.

• 12:34Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, she is not covering her tracks well.

• 12:37Scaachi Koul?

  Sloppy.

• 12:39Sarah Hagi?

  But then, Tim discovers the most damning evidence against Natalie. Natalie herself. He reads her texts and sees how cruel Natalie was to Michael's mother. He discovers that Natalie was still soliciting investors while her husband was in the ICU. She even filed a $2,500 insurance claim, supposedly to replace the kitchen countertop Michael broke when he fell. To Tim, this doesn't seem like the behavior of a grieving widow. Tim and Bob also learn that, just before his death, Michael was planning to fly to Virginia to investigate the company's Bank of America account. If he had made it there, he would have uncovered the truth about Natalie's lies.

• 13:22Sarah Hagi?

  And yet, in all their conversations about Michael's death, Natalie never once mentions this trip.

• 13:30Sarah Hagi?

  Tim becomes convinced that Michael, a healthy 38-year-old, didn't die of natural causes, and that Natalie is somehow involved or responsible. If nothing else, Natalie chose to be negligent by allowing her incredibly sick husband to lie on the couch for six hours before taking him to the hospital. And then, Tim reads a text between Natalie and Michael from the day before he was rushed to the hospital. Here's what Tim says on the Creepalacha Podcast.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  She was the one pushing him to buy a helicopter, to buy a Mercedes, whatever. And he's like, "We gotta get this bank [bleep] figured out." Her reply was, "Just go ahead and order it. It doesn't matter at this point, anyway." And when I saw that, I was like, "That is somebody who's already made a decision."

• 14:19Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah. I can't get over how bad Natalie is at this, honestly. It's like, she's not even trying.

• 14:26Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, she really was like, "I'm gonna commit the perfect murder if not even try." Well, Tim and Bob start investigating Michael's death for real. But Natalie has no idea how deep Tim's investigation is running. And while he continues gathering evidence, Natalie's only going to drag more people into her scam.

• 14:50Sarah Hagi?

  It's April 2019, and Jeff Vickers is having a tough day at work. Jeff has short buzzed hair and a wide smile, and he works at Premier Bank in Greenbrier County, West Virginia. Today, he's having a very difficult meeting with Natalie Cochran. This isn't the first time Jeff has met with Natalie. Back in December, she applied for a $100,000 loan, and Jeff rejected her. But this time, she brought updated documents about her government contracting business. Jeff says Natalie told him and one of his colleagues that she's in the top 5% of suppliers for the Department of Defense and that her company's net worth is more than $900 million. Jeff is pretty amazed,

• 15:35Sarah Hagi?

  especially since Natalie's business has only been around for less than two years. But Natalie tells him all about how she's part Native American and lives in a government opportunity zone, which makes it easier for her to get contracts. Then, she shows him letters of support from Senator Joe Manchin, promising to help her with her frozen accounts. And when Jeff asks more questions, Natalie breaks down crying, saying, "Everything would be different if Michael was still around."

• 16:06Scaachi Koul?

  What a scam. Being a beautiful, sad, white lady at a bank? Wow, you can really get some things.

• 16:14Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, weaponizing grief is top 10 evil things someone can do. Weaponizing fake grief, I should say.

• 16:20Scaachi Koul?

  Fake grief.

• 16:21Sarah Hagi?

  Jeff is still uncertain, but he takes pity on Natalie and approves her loan. Jeff doesn't know it, but he's just made one of the biggest mistakes of his career. Every document she submitted was fake, including the letter from Senator Manchin. In just a few months, Natalie is going to default on her very first payment. But the evidence against Natalie is mounting, and soon, the truth will catch up with her. The world will finally witness the full scope of her deception and see just how remorseless she truly is.

• 17:01Sarah Hagi?

  It's May 6, 2019, about a month after Natalie's first interview with Lieutenant Tim. Since then, rumors have started to swirl about the police investigation into Michael's death. So it seems like she's more determined than ever to play the part of the grieving, rich widow. That's why she's at Shady Springs High School today, standing onstage in front of the entire student body, handing out certificates framed in a handsome folio. She's here to award the Coach Michael Cochran Legacy Scholarship, which includes a full ride to any school of the recipient's choice. And the scholarship doesn't just cover a four-year degree. It actually goes for up to eight years

• 17:45Sarah Hagi?

  and includes an annual $7,500 stipend for personal spending. Oh, and it's not merit-based, so it doesn't even matter what grades a student gets. The whole thing is paid for by TSG. Natalie has personally picked eight students, presumably based on their connection to Michael. The group includes two of her nieces, a cousin, and the son of Tony, Natalie's widowed friend/investor who lost her husband to leukemia. Remember, just a few months ago, Natalie told Tony she also had leukemia. But now Natalie has shared some great news amid all the tragedy. She's in remission.

• 18:27Sarah Hagi?

  Natalie tells the student's parents not to apply for any additional scholarships and to cancel any financial aid requests, even though she knows she's not going to be able to give the students any money.

• 18:41Scaachi Koul?

  So this is like, basically, bar for bar Scots tots from the office. But it's also so demonstrably evil because she's saying this to people that are like, related and connected to people she's already ripped money off from, and telling them to like, cancel their financial aid requests. This is so evil and these people trust her. Yeah, it is needlessly cruel.

• 19:07Sarah Hagi?

  But no matter how much Natalie tries to act like everything is going well, it doesn't deter investigators from looking deeper into Michael's death. So around this time, Natalie decides to go full Karen and call Tim's boss, the captain of the state troopers. She asks him when the investigation will be over and says she's struggling to deal with her husband's death while the case keeps dragging on.

• 19:34Scaachi Koul?

  Can you imagine you're under investigation for murder and you call the cop's boss and you're like, "Hey, your employee's being super mean." Can you imagine living a life that makes you entitled enough to think you can do that?

• 19:47Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, because Natalie is a master manipulator and her manipulation has worked on plenty of people before. But this time, she is out of luck. Tim's boss defends him completely and says the investigators are just doing their job. Natalie can feel the walls closing in. But then she receives an unexpected break a few weeks later. A friend connects her to Dr. Dan Foley, an orthodontist with a chain of successful dental offices. Dan has heard that TSG is a big moneymaker and he wants in. Naturally, Natalie is more than happy to engage. She provides Dan with falsified tax documents,

• 20:31Sarah Hagi?

  then offers him 49% of the company for $4.9 million. And with the numbers she shared, it looks like a steal. To sweeten the pot, Natalie promises to teach him everything she knows about government contracting. Dan's in. He sends her a $50,000 down payment and agrees to pay $1 million a year after that. This is a wild stroke of luck for Natalie. But this high won't last. Because soon, the cops will come knocking on her door.

• 21:08Sarah Hagi?

  On June 25th, Tim makes his big move. Until now, Natalie hasn't been aware of his investigation into her financial crimes. So she's caught off guard when he executes a search warrant for her office and her home. Tim and his team scour the house. In the kitchen, he sees an officer open the fridge door, peek inside, and close it. But Tim decides to take a deeper look. Here he is describing why on the Creepalacha podcast.

• 21:36Speaker 05

  At that point, 26, 27 years of law enforcement, I've been on enough search warrants. You don't just open the door. People hide stuff.

• 21:46Sarah Hagi?

  As he pokes around, he notices something in the fridge. He pushes aside some chocolate bars to find a punctured bottle of insulin. The insulin isn't damning on its own. Natalie is a former pharmacist who specialized in diabetes. But it is a little strange for there to be insulin in a household where no one has diabetes. Tim bags the insulin and adds it to evidence. When the search is done, he sits at the kitchen table with Natalie. He shows her a 30-page list of everything taken from the home. Tim watches Natalie quickly scan the pages. She stops only once on the entry for insulin.

• 22:28Sarah Hagi?

  She points to it and tells Tim she keeps this bottle in her house for her neighbors, whose son is a diabetic. Tim thanks Natalie for her cooperation and leaves. But the moment sticks with him. Why was Natalie so concerned with the bottle of insulin? Well, yeah, I mean, she's concerned with it because she must tell everybody what crime she's done. She must be the easiest person to misdirect or like pickpocket or something. Can you imagine playing Clue with this woman? She's always pointing to exactly what she doesn't want people to see. Tim is determined to keep investigating. But confronting Natalie won't be easy. West Virginia is a small state,

• 23:12Sarah Hagi?

  and Daniels is an even smaller town. News of the search warrant spreads like wildfire, and Tim knows it's only a matter of time before Natalie's investors put the pieces together. Before this happens, he and Bob need to get ahead of it. So, that same day, the police sit down with Donna, Michael's mother. They break the news that her daughter-in-law has been running a Ponzi scheme. There were never any government contracts. She's stolen Donna's life savings, money Donna will probably never get back. Donna is stunned. Natalie had just promised to start paying her and her husband $9,000 a week to pay back their initial investment

• 23:56Sarah Hagi?

  and to deliver them over $1 million in profit. Donna thought she'd never have to worry about money again. And this isn't even the worst part. The police tell Donna they're looking into Michael's death and that Natalie left him suffering on their couch for hours before finally taking him to the hospital. Donna is devastated. Her daughter-in-law has been conning her and may have killed her only child. Donna's devastation is only the beginning. Because soon, friends, neighbors, and investors all across this small West Virginia community will realize just how deep Natalie's betrayal goes.

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• 26:08Sarah Hagi?

  It's still June 25th, the day investigators searched Natalie's house. Michael's best friend, Chris, is at home with his wife Jennifer trying to process the news. He knows something is very wrong because, as he later told the Creepalacha Podcast, "The feds don't show up at your house because you got a speeding ticket." Remember, Chris also invested with Natalie. He's starting to realize she might not have the money she's been promising him. But that's not the worst of it. He gets a call from the police. And instead of asking about Natalie's financial crimes, they want to know if Chris or Jennifer ever gave Natalie insulin to keep for their son, Gavin. Jennifer says no.

• 26:52Sarah Hagi?

  But then, the investigators ask if they ever gave Natalie insulin. Jennifer says she did once, back when Natalie supposedly had cancer. Here's Chris on the Creepalacha Podcast describing what happened next.

• 27:07Speaker 08

  She was sick when she had her cancer. Do you know when that was? I can look at my phone. And she just starts crying. Oh, man. They're like, "So what date was it?" "Oh, my gosh, it's February 6th."

• 27:21Scaachi Koul?

  Can you imagine finding out that your friend not only like took a bunch of your money and you're never getting it back, but may have used the insulin for your kid to perhaps kill her husband?

• 27:31Sarah Hagi?

  No, it's beyond comprehension. Chris's very faith in God is shaken by how evil Natalie is. Sachi, can you read what Chris later says on 2020? He says, "What keeps Gavin alive, she used to kill. She used to take a life." Yeah, I mean, like, insulin is not thought of as like a murder device. This is beyond comprehension. I feel like there are just too many layers to how evil it is. But also, Chris and Jennifer have just blown up Natalie's alibi for why she had insulin in her fridge. But Natalie isn't ready to admit guilt, so she's going to continue what she does best: lie.

• 28:14Sarah Hagi?

  After the search warrant, investors really start turning the heat up on Natalie. For the past two years, Natalie has been spinning stories she thinks will resonate with her community, including saying she sold all the guns for the wall on the US-Mexico border. But now, people want answers. A month after the search warrant, on July 23rd, 2019, the US Attorney's Office officially files a civil case against Natalie. And a couple of days after that, The Register Herald, the local newspaper, publishes a story about Natalie with the headline, "Local pharmacist accused of money laundering." Between the investigation, the charges, and the news story,

• 28:59Sarah Hagi?

  everyone in town now knows that Natalie's companies never had a single government contract and that her investors have been robbed of at least $2.8 million.

• 29:12Sarah Hagi?

  In the meantime, Natalie plays one of the last cards she has left. She officially files for bankruptcy. Generally speaking, when you declare bankruptcy, many of your creditors can no longer come after you for your personal debts. So, in theory, Natalie can try to get a blank slate. Except, the list of creditors she includes with the filing doesn't include any of her investors. She also neglects to include TSG and TMS among her business interests. And she dramatically understates her income. She says she only made $200,000 in 2018, which is way less than she's stolen from her investors.

• 29:54Scaachi Koul?

  This is really foolish. Like, she's not even good at getting herself out of jams when the answer is so clearly in front of her.

• 30:01Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it is hard to know what's true and what's not, since the document is riddled with lies. Natalie claims she has around $400,000 in assets and says she owes her creditors somewhere between $1 to $10 million. She says her only income is $502 each month in food stamps. Natalie's bankruptcy only raises more questions. And there's only one institution that can start to answer them: the local news.

• 30:34Sarah Hagi?

  It's August 7, 2019, about two weeks after Natalie's civil case has been opened, and Jessica Farish is finally getting the chance to interview her. Jessica is an award-winning reporter for The Register Herald. With her long brown hair and a warm smile, she looks more like a TV anchor than a print journalist. She's deeply embedded in the local community, and she's been following Natalie for a while. Jessica is very familiar with Natalie's businesses because of their billboards. Here's how she describes it in an interview with the YouTube channel Lawyer Lee.

• 31:10Speaker 09

  I always thought it was odd to drive and see the Bible verses on billboards with advertising the guns.

• 31:18Scaachi Koul?

  Sarah, this is America. They really love their bibles and their guns here. Do you know how weird the billboards have to be in West Virginia? For someone to be like, hmm.

• 31:30Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I can only imagine the billboards were crazy looking for her to remark on them. And naturally, people are pretty pissed now that Natalie's Ponzi scheme is public. But it's not just the friends and family who invested. Remember the kids Natalie promised nonexistent scholarships to? By now, it's too late for many of them to receive other scholarships or financial aid. And the youth sports league, which Natalie has been embezzling from, is reeling too. With Natalie's crimes out in the open and the league auditing their accounts, people with grudges are ready to talk. Jessica's job is sorting out the facts from the wild accusations being made on social media. That's why Natalie has agreed to this interview.

• 32:15Sarah Hagi?

  She wants to clear the air and provide the truth.

• 32:20Scaachi Koul?

  Ah, as a journalist, nothing delights me more than when a source says they want to clear the air. Yes, clear it. Clear it with me. Let me help you clear it.

• 32:31Sarah Hagi?

  She is beyond stupid.

• 32:34Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Jessica sits down with Natalie and her bankruptcy attorney. The attorney says this online hate is fueled by unrelated bad blood. And Natalie adds that actually, things have been really hard since her cancer diagnosis. She says the people speaking out against her are just looking for attention, and that all of this is really hard for her children. Natalie also takes the opportunity to address rumors about Michael's death. She tells Jessica that the rumors are wrong. A state trooper and a physician's assistant both looked at Michael after he collapsed. But when Jessica looks into this later, she learns that both were friends of Natalie and Michael,

• 33:18Sarah Hagi?

  and they urged her to take Michael to the hospital.

• 33:23Sarah Hagi?

  As August continues, even more information comes out. The day after the interview, the police officially announced that Natalie is being investigated in connection with her husband's death. About a week later, Jessica reports on the youth baseball league's audit, which comes to the conclusion that Natalie stole at least $10,000. And about a week after that, Jessica attends a creditors' meeting for Natalie in bankruptcy court. Jessica takes notes as Natalie says her assets have been frozen by federal investigators. She watches as Natalie breaks down crying, recounting that the authorities took $13 out of her son's desk as well as his dirt bike.

• 34:07Sarah Hagi?

  In the middle of September, Michael's body is exhumed. And about a week later, Jessica gets a tip that Natalie is about to be arrested. She quickly calls a photographer and they head to Natalie's house. On the morning of September 26, 2019, Natalie is taken into custody. She's been indicted on 26 counts, including aggravated identity theft, wire fraud, bank fraud, and bankruptcy fraud. Sachi, will you take a look at this photo of her perp walk?

• 34:41Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, yeah. Old girl is mad. She appears to be in chains. And she looks like she would like to speak to the manager.

• 34:49Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. Natalie is placed on full house arrest and Jessica waits for what might be the biggest trial in recent memory in West Virginia.

• 34:59Sarah Hagi?

  The trial date gets delayed a few times, mostly because of COVID, until it finally gets scheduled for September 2020. When the date arrives, Natalie decides to plead guilty in the face of overwhelming evidence. In March 2021, at her sentencing hearing, her victims finally get the chance to testify. Remember Jeff, the banker who gave Natalie that loan? Scaachi, will you read what he said at the hearing?

• 35:26Scaachi Koul?

  He said, quote, "In 20-some years of doing this, I've seen every type of criminal, crook, liar, financially manipulative package, and they all pale in comparison to what Natalie Cochran did."

• 35:38Sarah Hagi?

  Natalie is sentenced to 11 years in prison. Jessica, like most of the community, is happy that the victims are finally getting some justice. But while Natalie's financial crimes seem to have been resolved, there's still the matter of Michael's death. And when the justice system finally moves to hold Natalie accountable, her story will go from local scandal to a national media frenzy.

• 36:07Sarah Hagi?

  Donna is grimly satisfied on May 1, 2021, when Natalie reports to a medium-security women's prison a few hours away from her home. She's glad Natalie is being punished for her financial crimes, but Donna still wants justice for her son. So she's relieved when Natalie is indicted for first-degree murder on November 19, after about six months in prison. In January 2022, Donna watches Natalie plead not guilty during her arraignment. And now that it's a murder trial, the case is getting more attention. Multiple national media outlets report on the hearing, and Dateline and 2020 have started sniffing around.

• 36:50Sarah Hagi?

  Things have been really hard for Donna, and not just because of the money Natalie stole. Natalie's kids, Donna's grandchildren, believe their mother is innocent, and they've completely cut Donna out of their lives. The last text she got from her grandson was in August 2019, and it read, quote, "Don't text me anymore. I'm going to block you. You never loved us. We know that now."

• 37:16Scaachi Koul?

  I mean, I just feel sad for those kids. Like, what are they supposed to do? Like, turn on their mom?

• 37:22Sarah Hagi?

  Of course. It's terrible. Like, these kids are being traumatized. I mean, it is just like one of those very grim situations. But Donna tries to stand strong. She knows she's on the right side. But it gets harder as the trial keeps getting delayed. You might think she'd be devastated in April 2023 when the charges are dropped. But Donna has been assured it's only so Michael's body can be exhumed for further testing. Donna probably doesn't love the idea of her son's grave being disturbed again, but she's committed to seeing justice done. Turns out, it's hard to prove that someone was killed by insulin. Because insulin dissolves quickly in the body, testing it years later is nearly impossible.

• 38:06Sarah Hagi?

  But the prosecution brings in Dr. Paul Uribe, a top forensic pathologist who is an expert in insulin cases. He analyzes Michael's body and concludes that insulin is the only possible cause of death and that Michael's death was a homicide. Natalie gets charged with murder again in October 2023 and pleads not guilty again in January 2024. But the trial keeps getting delayed, and Donna is not happy. Scaachi, will you read what she wrote on Facebook?

• 38:41Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah. Quote, "I have attended every hearing, pre-trial, status trial, motion trial, et cetera, for our son, Michael Brandon Cochran. We are very frustrated with all of the delays and continuances. It has been almost six years, and we've been patiently waiting. We remain strong in our faith, knowing that she, Natalie Cochran, will be held accountable, and there will be justice for Michael Brandon."

• 39:07Sarah Hagi?

  The judicial system sucks, Sarah. It's just shitty. Even when it kinda works, it doesn't work. I know. It's like, every moment she has to go through this trauma, it's not working. But Donna's prayers are finally granted when the trial is confirmed for January 2025. Donna will be there, of course, but it's not just her. By now, the entire country is paying attention. Court TV will be broadcasting live as Natalie finally stands trial for murder. Natalie has already been brought to justice for her Ponzi scheme, but now, she must answer for her biggest crime of all.

• 39:53Speaker 02

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• 40:23Speaker 03

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• 40:53Speaker 10

  A dark night, a quiet house. But inside, danger was lurking.

• 40:57Speaker 11

  Oh, not really. We have Xfinity Shield, so we're not worried. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama-free? Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply. Not available in all areas.

• 41:11Sarah Hagi?

  All eyes are on Natalie when she finally enters the courtroom for her murder trial. She looks markedly older, with wrinkles, glasses, and the speckling of gray hair. But she's composed, and she's settled on a legal strategy. It's all Michael's fault. Natalie has told her side of the story a few times, but this is where it all comes together. Her lawyers argue that Michael was an aggressive, abusive husband juiced up with steroids and supplements. He was the one who pressured her into starting the Ponzi scheme, and he died of natural causes related to all of the drugs he was using.

• 41:55Sarah Hagi?

  Sure, Natalie pled guilty to operating the Ponzi scheme, but really, Michael was the one in charge. Natalie sits at the defense table as her attorney delivers the opening statement. He says,

• 42:08Speaker 12

  Natalie Coffin is not a nice person. She cheated, she scammed, and she has paid for it. But ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the fact that she is perhaps a fraud, and perhaps a cheat, and that you wouldn't perhaps want to invite her home for Sunday dinner, that you wouldn't like her, does not translate into being a murderer.

• 42:33Scaachi Koul?

  Can you imagine the case against you being so weak that the argument has to be that you have done almost all of the other crimes except for murder?

• 42:41Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah. It's kind of like, listen, she may be rotten, a thief, willing to dupe her best friends and family, but that doesn't mean she's a killer. Not a great defense, in my opinion.

• 42:52Scaachi Koul?

  Uh huh.

• 42:53Sarah Hagi?

  But it makes sense the defense chooses to villainize Michael. Getting people to sympathize with Natalie is hard. It doesn't help that she spends most of the trial with this look on her face. Sachi, can you describe it?

• 43:06Scaachi Koul?

  Uh, I would call this face tightly smug. She looks like a little distressed, but mostly looks like a cat with a bird in her mouth.

• 43:17Sarah Hagi?

  Yes, you know, I don't always think people's faces are telling in these moments, but knowing what I know, I mean, she definitely is just smug.

• 43:26Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 43:27Sarah Hagi?

  After five days of witnesses, including Tim, Chris, and Dr. Uribe, the prosecution rests. And Natalie's lawyer calls the star witnesses for the defense, Natalie and Michael's children. The son is under 18, so Court TV can't show his face or use his real name. The kids say Michael was controlling, he had expensive tastes, and that he was abusing supplements and steroids. At first, Natalie also plans to testify, but at the last minute, she pulls out. After years of telling stories, lying, and going out of her way to manipulate others, it seems Natalie has finally found one instance where it's better to say nothing. So the defense rests.

• 44:12Sarah Hagi?

  They've spent the entire trial trying to add noise to Michael's death and to the financial crimes that led up to it. But the prosecutors managed to tell the entire story in their closing statement. And they present the jury with a clear timeline that makes it impossible for them to deny Natalie's guilt. After deliberating for less than two hours, the jury comes back with a verdict: guilty. But before the trial wraps, Natalie's victims and Michael's family will finally get the last word.

• 44:49Sarah Hagi?

  The day after Natalie is found guilty, Donna puts on a green flower dress, brushes her long gray hair, and heads back to the courthouse for one last hearing. Today's hearing is for the jury to determine whether or not they will grant Natalie mercy. Normally, when someone is convicted of first-degree murder in West Virginia, the default sentence is life without parole. But there's a special provision. If the jury decides to grant mercy, the defendant is potentially eligible for parole after 15 years.

• 45:24Sarah Hagi?

  Donna watches as Natalie cries, and as Natalie's final supporters try to defend this now convicted murderer. Natalie's mother tries to assert that Natalie is innocent and never scammed them. Worst of all for Donna, she has to watch Natalie's children, her grandchildren, cry and beg to see their mother outside of prison. The whole thing is emotionally raw and heartbreaking to watch. And it's just as intense when Michael's friends and family get their turn to speak. Chris breaks down crying on the stand. Toni describes how awful it was for her son to have his scholarship pulled out from under him. But the real kicker comes when Donna takes the stand. She puts on her glasses

• 46:09Sarah Hagi?

  as she reads her prepared statement. It's eight pages long and contains years of Donna's bottled rage.

• 46:18Sarah Hagi?

  After a few objections by the defense, she isn't allowed to read the whole thing. But she gets through more than enough. Through tears, Donna talks about Natalie's lack of remorse. She mentions the pain of Natalie choosing to slander Michael's good name again and again. And she talks about the painful loss of her relationship with her grandchildren. She makes the case for the jury to deny Natalie any mercy.

• 46:45Speaker 13

  This evil narcissistic sociopath, intentionally and knowingly, pre-planned and committed, first-degree premeditated murder, stealing the life of our son. Judge, please don't fault for her con. That's what Natalie does. She only cares about herself. She will use, abuse, and manipulate anyone to get in her way. But we know the real Natalie Cochran. The thief, the liar, the taker of life, and the doer of evil deeds.

• 47:21Speaker 13

  We ask that you please, please, no mercy. She never gave Michael any mercy.

• 47:28Sarah Hagi?

  In the end, the jury agrees with Donna. Natalie Cochran becomes the first woman in West Virginia since 1991 to be found guilty of murder without receiving a recommendation for mercy. She will spend the rest of her life in prison. Natalie is currently serving her life sentence. She filed for an acquittal, but it was denied. She will likely appeal. No one has their money back, but at least they have justice for Michael.

• 48:04Sarah Hagi?

  While Sachi, not only was this the worst type of Ponzi scheme, to the point where basically everyone she took money from had some type of personal relationship with her, it also resulted in her murdering her own husband.

• 48:21Scaachi Koul?

  I think what I can't get over about this case is it seems like she maybe would have gotten away with the money stuff if she hadn't have murdered her husband.

• 48:29Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, the sloppiness of this Ponzi scheme was that no one saw any return at all. For Ponzi schemes, oftentimes, there's months of some returns. There's enough robbing Peter to pay Paul, whatever. Like, you know, someone's not getting their money, but someone else's. She had no business, no contracts, no way of keeping people satisfied with any level of payment. It was just people giving her money. These crimes were so ambitious, and there was hardly any effort to really think about what she could get away with. And to me, it kind of signals to like, this woman is, and probably always has been,

• 49:11Sarah Hagi?

  just extremely arrogant in what she believes people think about her. She was right for a while, like, it worked. But she has so much confidence she couldn't even cover her tracks properly.

• 49:25Scaachi Koul?

  I wonder if her children still feel the way that they did during the trial, or if this conviction, she's not going to get parole.

• 49:36Scaachi Koul?

  If that has changed their understanding of what's happening. Because there's so much parental alienation in this. Like, they have such distrust of their grandparents. But now they're just like these children on board in the world. So I wonder where else they've turned to.

• 49:51Sarah Hagi?

  I feel so bad for the kids because they know how they grew up. Maybe there was stuff going on with their parents, or their parents fought, or they saw their mom as a victim. But regardless of what they saw, they're the ones who are kind of manipulated by their mom in the craziest way. At the point of the investigation and the trial, they were so under their mom's spell that they were able to justify her being a murderer, her murdering their father. There also is the gun element of it all and the defense contracts and all that kind of stuff. I was just kind of struck by how even her lie was evil. My scam is that I'm working in acquiring guns and weapons

• 50:36Sarah Hagi?

  for the Department of Defense. And here are some guns for the little baseball players. It's crazy.

• 50:42Scaachi Koul?

  Her whole thing was evil from the get. Like, she was inspired by war dogs. There is nothing warm or positive or well-intentioned about this woman. She started from a really weird nefarious place.

• 50:57Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah.

• 50:57Scaachi Koul?

  Evil is the word. I mean, I think there's also something to be said about the fact that she was scamming people who had the same values as her. So she's able to kind of get at them easier. That's the benefit of going after people within your community and not just, you know, any stranger, which also makes this even more evil than it is on face value.

• 51:16Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I mean, I bet there were so many people in the community who just didn't have the money to invest or couldn't for some reason and probably felt left out. And like, cool, now I'm not going to be a millionaire, who are just like, thank God I was broke.

• 51:27Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, the money is extremely gone.

• 51:30Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, totally.

• 51:31Scaachi Koul?

  Very gone, bigly gone.

• 51:33Sarah Hagi?

  Starting off the story, you don't really know where it's going to go, but it does kind of get into national news frenzy territory. Dateline in 2020 and Court TV added this other layer for these people. Again, small community in a small town, never really thought their names would be known. How one person can just upend everything will never not shock me.

• 51:57Scaachi Koul?

  You know, Sarah, I think unfortunately, our show loves to remind us that we are perpetually at the whim of other people. And all we can do is hope that our wives or husbands don't scam us and/or murder us. And that is why I am divorced. All roads lead back to divorce, Haggy. Woo! Did it again. Well, you know what? Some of us are unmarried and can't get divorced, okay?

• 52:21Sarah Hagi?

  There's still time. You can do it anytime.

• 52:23Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and I have to find someone to marry me. I'll do it. Okay, okay, let's get divorced.

• 52:36Scaachi Koul?

  Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.

• 52:46Sarah Hagi?

  This is Natalie Cochran, The Pharmacist: Femme Fatale, Part Two. I'm Sarah Haggy.

• 52:52Scaachi Koul?

  And I'm Sachi Cole. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected]. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were Jessica Farish's reporting for The Register Herald, the 2020 episode Small Town Big Con, and the interview work of the podcast Creepalacha.

• 53:11Sarah Hagi?

  Rachel Borders wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggy. Eric Thurm is our story editor. Fact checking by Gabrielle Jrolay. Sound design by James Morgan. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Frieson Sync. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Pluse. Janine Cornolo and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our producer is Julie McGruder. Our senior producers are Sarah Enney and Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louie, and Erin O'Flaherty for Wondery.

• 54:03Speaker 14

  Hi, I'm Kenya Paris.

• 54:04Speaker 15

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 54:10Speaker 14

  We'll sit down with extraordinary guests from the worlds of art, film, literature, comedy, and wellness to hear from their unexpected stories of success.

• 54:17Speaker 15

  And who do we have this season? Well, we'll talk with Grammy-winning artist Anderson Paak, athlete Rich Roll, portrait artist Amy Sherald, Oscar-winning director Ron Howard, legendary writer David Sedaris, and many more. These conversations are more intimate than last season, wouldn't you say?

• 54:34Speaker 14

  I would. Listen to season one of The Unusual Suspects wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for a free trial Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing to Apple Podcasts.