The Hitler Hoax | 145

In the early 80s, a German magazine thought it had the scoop of the century: access to Adolf Hitler’s secret diaries. But as soon as excerpts of the diaries were released, critics pounced. Soon, the magazine that published them, the expert who verified them, and the journalist-slash-Nazi-enthusiast who sourced them are found to be victims of an artful forger… and of the allure of a story so incredible, it really was too good to be true. Be the first to know about Wondery’s newest podcasts, curated recommendations, and more! Sign up now at https://wondery.fm/wonderynewsletter Listen to Scamfluencers on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/scamfluencers/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sarah Hagi?

  Audible subscribers can listen to all our episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app.

• 0:14Scaachi Koul?

  Sarah, do you keep a diary? Have you ever kept a diary? You're already laughing, so I'm worried about what you're gonna say.

• 0:22Sarah Hagi?

  You know, that's very funny, because it's the beginning of the year, and one of my resolutions was to keep a diary and to remember what I do all day. Like, I want to remember what I do during the day.

• 0:33Scaachi Koul?

  Uh huh.

• 0:33Sarah Hagi?

  Because as the youngest of four, there was always a fear that someone would be finding my diary. But I live alone now. I can keep a diary and no one will find it, unless I die, and then my mom will read it.

• 0:45Scaachi Koul?

  Do you want me to take it before your mom gets to it?

• 0:48Sarah Hagi?

  Yes, I will. I'm going to write that down somewhere, yes.

• 0:51Scaachi Koul?

  Okay, I will handle it for you, and I will burn it immediately, I promise. Well, today's episode is about a forger who tricked a lot of people into thinking that they could read the deepest, most personal secrets of one of the most infamous dictators in history. You know what's worse than reading someone's diary, Sarah? Faking one.

• 1:13Scaachi Koul?

  It's 1983 in Stuttgart, a city in southwest Germany. Konrad Kujo is starting off his day as he normally does, sipping a cup of coffee with his wife Edith. Konrad is in his 40s, with a round face, a bushy mustache, and a balding head. He wears glasses, and he's really giving academia, which is fitting, because he's a writer hard at work on a big project. And like many creatives, he's following a strict routine. After getting up at 6:00 AM and having his coffee, he makes himself breakfast: fried potatoes and two fried eggs. Then, he works in his studio all day without even stopping for lunch. Konrad's studio is stuffed with research materials: hundreds of books, newspapers, and other periodicals.

• 1:57Scaachi Koul?

  He has a habit of using whatever is around to bookmark important passages: playing cards, old bills, even toilet paper. The most important book in his collection is always at the ready. It's Hitler: Speeches and Proclamations, 1932 to 1945. Konrad refers to the book constantly as he works on his latest project, which is about Adolf Hitler himself.

• 2:20Scaachi Koul?

  Conrad writes his first drafts in pencil. Then, he writes the final version in a school notebook using a steel nib pen. The writing is in cramped, difficult-to-read Germanic script. Afterward, he sprinkles tea on the notebook's pages and bashes them around for a bit, to give them a rough look. Finally, he sticks a red wax seal in the shape of a German eagle on the covers. Conrad is trying to make these pages look used and worn. And old. Because he's not writing a typical book about the world's most famous dictator. He's passing his writing off as the actual Diaries of Adolf Hitler.

• 2:57Sarah Hagi?

  Okay, I have so much to say about this. First of all,

• 3:01Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 3:01Sarah Hagi?

  It's crazy that there's like a universal experience of everyone going to school and knowing how to make papers look old for a class project. And that this guy just took that into adulthood to pretend to be Hitler. Like, what is this? That's crazy.

• 3:19Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it is so insane. But not to Conrad. Because for the last two years, Conrad has been writing fake diary entries and selling them off as the real deal. In fact, he's been forging all kinds of Nazi stuff for the past decade. From signatures of various high-ranking Nazi officials, including Hitler, of course, to paintings and drawings he attributes to the Führer. It's a very lucrative business, and Conrad has gotten very good at it. Plus, it operates mostly on the black market. So, a lot of collectors are hesitant to get things verified. And these are Nazi-obsessed freaks. They want to believe that they're really getting a sketch that Hitler doodled on a napkin or whatever else.

• 4:02Scaachi Koul?

  But these Nazi fanatics are very well-informed. So Conrad keeps referring back to Hitler's speeches to make sure that he doesn't mess up dates. And most of what Conrad writes is, frankly, boring as hell. It's basically a reprint of Hitler's calendar. But over the years, Conrad has snuck in more creative details in sections marked as "personal." Can you read one of the passages Conrad wrote for an entry in June 1941?

• 4:27Sarah Hagi?

  Um, I am delighted to read this out loud.

• 4:32Sarah Hagi?

  It goes, "On Eva's wishes, I'm thoroughly examined by my doctors. Because of the new pills, I have violent flatulence and," says Eva, "bad breath." Oh my god. It's like, what can Hitler talk about now? Um, I don't know. How about his farts and breath being really stinky? Like, what is this?

• 4:53Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Sarah, as you know, Eva was Hitler's long-term girlfriend. And Conrad has worked in some other reflections that make Hitler seem, well, less Hitler-y. In these diaries, Hitler writes that the burning of books in 1933 was, quote, "not a good idea," and that some of the measures the Nazi regime were implementing against the Jews were, quote, "too strong for me."

• 5:17Sarah Hagi?

  I mean, that's so crazy, because that's literally what Hitler did. How did anyone believe this ever? And you're making it seem like in his diaries, he's like, "I don't know about all that."

• 5:29Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah. It's kind of Hitler's whole thing. But Sarah, don't worry. Conrad's Hitler masquerade won't last forever. And when the diaries are finally exposed as frauds, he won't be the only one to pay. The saga of the fake Hitler diaries will make fools of magazine editors, historians, actual Nazis, and Rupert Murdoch. And it'll prove that even decades after his death, the biggest villain of the 20th century still has a stranglehold on popular imagination.

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• 7:06Scaachi Koul?

  From Wondery, I'm Sachi Cole. And I'm Sarah Haggy. And this is Scamfluencers.

• 7:20Scaachi Koul?

  This is a story about a petty criminal who found a lucrative niche writing Hitler fanfiction and the scoop-obsessed reporter who started buying it. But this isn't just a tale of journalists to cubris. There are suitcases full of cash, weird parties on a yacht once owned by Hermann Göring, and a very urgent phone call from Rupert Murdoch. I'm calling this one "The Hitler Hoax."

• 7:45Scaachi Koul?

  To understand the mania surrounding these supposed long-lost diaries, we need to go back a few decades, to the end of World War II. It's May 1945, in a small town near Dresden in eastern Germany. The area has been devastated by bombing. And while much of Europe is celebrating the German surrender, six-year-old Konrad Kujo doesn't have anything to celebrate. His dad, a shoemaker and hardcore Nazi, died the year before. Now, his mom is struggling to make ends meet and provide for her five children. Things get so bad that eventually, she makes the difficult decision to send the kids to children's homes. And he spends the rest of his childhood bouncing between different homes.

• 8:24Sarah Hagi?

  I feel like this story is common for a few scammers we've covered, where they're displaced as children and it sets them on the wrong path.

• 8:34Scaachi Koul?

  It is a familiar story, and it's the story that journalist Robert Harris describes in his book Selling Hitler. But Conrad's sister disputes some of these accounts. Either way, Conrad is a smart, scrappy kid. He discovers a talent for painting, and it quickly becomes his favorite hobby. He gets good grades, but without any money to continue his education, he has to drop out at 16. Later, he'll claim he became a manager at a clubhouse. But in reality, he takes up several trade jobs, including washing windows, serving as a locksmith's apprentice, and working in a textile plant. Eventually, Conrad turns to crime. His first documented run-in with the law comes in 1957, when he's around 19 years old. He steals a microphone from the youth club he works at as a waiter.

• 9:20Scaachi Koul?

  And once the police put out a warrant for his arrest, Conrad packs his bags and hops on a train out of communist East Germany and over to West Germany. At this time, the Berlin Wall isn't up yet and won't be for another four years, so it's easier for Conrad to escape. But starting a new life won't be as easy, so Conrad's going to rely on a useful but risky skill: lying.

• 9:43Scaachi Koul?

  Once he makes it to West Germany, Conrad settles in a suburb of Stuttgart. He starts selling original paintings. But before long, he goes right back to his old tricks: stealing cases of cognac, using a fake identity, and forging food vouchers. A few years after arriving at Stuttgart, Conrad falls in love with a waitress named Edith. He convinces her to fund his latest venture: a cleaning company. The first few years are tough, but after a while, their financial situation stabilizes. In 1970, when Conrad is in his early 30s, the couple decides to visit his family in the East. And while they're visiting, he realizes something: old Nazi stuff is all over the place.

• 10:24Sarah Hagi?

  You kind of forget how recent World War II was, you know?

• 10:28Scaachi Koul?

  Yes.

• 10:28Sarah Hagi?

  And it makes total sense to me that there would be Nazi stuff all over the place. It basically just ended.

• 10:33Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, this is basically one generation removed. But Nazi memorabilia is banned from display in West Germany. And in the Communist East, the government forbids the unlicensed export of any object made before 1945. But Konrad is fascinated by the Nazis, and he's obsessed with Nazi military memorabilia. And he knows he's not alone. There are plenty of people who would pay a lot of money to own a uniform, a medal, or a military beer stein. At the end of World War II, the Nazi Party had over 8 million members, around 10% of Germany's population. Most of the people who committed atrocities during the Holocaust got away with it. So it makes sense that there are people throughout Germany who might still have connections

• 11:17Scaachi Koul?

  to the Nazi Party, or at the very least, a fascination with it.

• 11:21Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, and I feel like the idea that it is banned in some places and so universally seen as something that's bad makes it more desirable for people around the world to get their hands on something, you know?

• 11:34Scaachi Koul?

  Exactly. So during this trip, Konrad buys a ton of Nazi items for cheap, loading up his and Edith's suitcases. Transporting these items across the border is illegal, but the guards don't search their bags. Their first smuggling operation goes off without a hitch, and Konrad sells the goods at a huge profit. So he decides to keep doing it. He has discreetly worded ads placed in Eastern German newspapers seeking old items, quote, "for research." By 1974, Konrad's Nazi memorabilia business has become incredibly successful. He shows off his wealth by drinking champagne at the local beer garden, wearing fancy outfits, like a tuxedo and an SS uniform.

• 12:18Scaachi Koul?

  His house quickly fills up with old military regalia, guns and swords, which Edith does not appreciate. She wants to live in a normal house, not a Nazi museum. She threatens to leave unless he moves all of his stuff. So Konrad opens up an antiques shop to store and sell his inventory. As he grows the business, Konrad inflates the value of his merchandise by making it seem special. He forges certificates of authenticity to claim that, for example, an old helmet from World War I was worn by Hitler. Conrad signs his fake note using the name of Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess. He also starts creating stories out of thin air. Hitler had artistic dreams before becoming a genocidal dictator.

• 13:00Scaachi Koul?

  And when Conrad realizes the Fuhrer's early paintings are fetching high prices from international collectors, he smells an opportunity. He's pretty decent at copying works of art, so he starts painting canvases and passing them off as Hitler originals. He even does nudes of Hitler's girlfriend, Eva Braun.

• 13:18Sarah Hagi?

  You know, if this guy was transported to the world of the internet, he would have his own little thing doing fake nudes of Eva Braun and doing Hitler replica paintings.

• 13:32Scaachi Koul?

  I agree, Sarah. He was ahead of his time.

• 13:35Sarah Hagi?

  I just don't know what would compel someone to go this far.

• 13:40Scaachi Koul?

  Well, as part of his grift, Conrad develops a talent for faking handwriting. So he starts selling what he claims are handwritten copies of Mein Kampf, along with poems, speech notes, and letters that were supposedly written by Hitler. After a few years, Conrad gets another big idea. Personal writings by Hitler are rare, so any document that could give insight into Hitler's inner thoughts, like a diary, would be a huge find. It might be harder to pull off than his other forgeries, but Conrad's pretty confident he can get away with it. After all, this is a man who's been wearing an SS uniform out to the bars in a country where the public display of Nazi symbols is banned. Conrad spends several weeks perfecting Hitler's old Gothic handwriting.

• 14:24Scaachi Koul?

  Then he sits down in the back room of a store with a stack of history books and gets to work. This isn't just a fun project for Conrad. It's a potential goldmine. Soon, he'll find a buyer for his forged diaries. But while Conrad's other customers want to keep their purchases private, this one will want to tell the whole world. When Gerhard Heidemann hears rumors about a newly discovered set of Hitler diaries, he is stoked. It's January 1980, and Gerhard is about 50 years old, with thinning brown hair and thick cloak bottle glasses. He's a reporter and photographer at Stern, a popular German magazine. But his curiosity about these potentially historic documents isn't just professional.

• 15:07Scaachi Koul?

  Gerhard grew up in Hamburg in the 30s, and, like most boys his age, he was a part of the Hitler Youth. His fascination continued as he got older. In 1973, Gerhard bought an 80-foot yacht that used to belong to high-ranking Nazi, Hermann Göring. Gerhard planned to flip the boat for a profit, guessing that people's obsession with Nazi shit would increase its value. But in the process of researching his purchase, he met with Göring's daughter, and they started having an affair. Instead of selling the boat, he turned it into a floating memorial to its former owner. He decorated it with Göring's things, including silverware, goblets, an old uniform, and cushions made of fabric from Göring's bathrobe. Then, in 1979,

• 15:49Scaachi Koul?

  he had two former SS generals act as witnesses at his wedding. And for their honeymoon, Gerhard and his new bride traveled to South America to visit fugitive Nazi war criminals like Klaus Barbie.

• 16:02Sarah Hagi?

  In what universe is it normal to be obsessed? Like, does she know that he's sleeping with her so that it could feel like he's sleeping with her dad?

• 16:12Scaachi Koul?

  I think they both want to fuck her dad, so I think they're both happy to find a way to fuck her dad.

• 16:18Sarah Hagi?

  It's crazy to be this into anything.

• 16:23Scaachi Koul?

  Well, after getting back from his war criminal vacation, Gerhard is deeply in debt, and maintaining the yacht is expensive. So Gerhard starts looking for a co-owner to defray his costs. In the process, he meets a wealthy businessman who shares his interest in Nazi memorabilia. And while this guy doesn't end up buying a share on the yacht, he does invite Gerhard to check out his armored vault of secret Nazi souvenirs. And this is how Gerhard finds himself looking at a slim, black notebook with Gothic initials on the cover: "The Diary of Adolf Hitler." When Gerhard asks where the diary came from, the collector says, "Farmers salvaged it from the wreckage of a Nazi plane crash at the end of the war. From there, it got to an anonymous seller in Stuttgart." The collector adds that there are likely 26 additional diaries.

• 17:11Scaachi Koul?

  The next time he shows up at the Stern newsroom, he talks everybody's ear off about the diary. He keeps repeating a few sentences he memorized about Eva Braun and her dogs. But when he pitches a story about it, his colleagues tell him to quit it with the Nazi talk. No one wants to hear it. Stern is a left-leaning publication, and Gerd has a well-deserved reputation as a weird guy who's way too into the Third Reich. His editor explicitly tells him to stop looking into this stuff.

• 17:39Sarah Hagi?

  Everyone's like, "Okay, Gerd, let it die." And he's like, "No, I have a crazy story about Eva Braun and her dogs." Who is that interesting to?

• 17:50Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Sarah, it's actually interesting to only one of Gerd's colleagues. His name is Thomas Walda, and he's a mustachioed, pipe-smoking researcher on the history desk. He doesn't share Gerd's admiration for Nazis, but he does recognize that the diaries would be a massive scoop. But Gerd's editor had been clear: no Nazi shit. So Thomas asks Gerd to do some reporting, in secret, to see if the diaries are real. Gerd does have a reputation as a good researcher. His colleagues refer to him as a bloodhound. He's able to verify that a Nazi plane really did crash in April 1945 near a tiny village outside Dresden. He tracks down a death certificate for the pilot, and he talks to another former Nazi pilot

• 18:34Scaachi Koul?

  who confirms the details of the crash. Gerd and Thomas decide to look into it in person. Gerd pretends to be a relative of one of the crash victims, who wants to pay a visit to the site. When they spot the pilot's gravestone in the village cemetery, both men get chills. Sure, the evidence is all circumstantial, but Gerd has found just enough to convince himself that these long-lost Hitler diaries are the real deal. And now, he'll do anything to make sure that the diaries see the light of day.

• 19:05Scaachi Koul?

  After weeks of silence, a contact finally passes Gerd the phone number of the supplier, a man named Herr Fischer. When Gerd calls him, he hears a gruff, Easternman accent on the other end of the line. Gerd doesn't know it, but this is actually Conrad using a fake name. After a brief conversation about their shared love of Nazi memorabilia, Gerd asks Conrad to tell him how he came across the Hitler Diaries. Conrad's story lines up with what Gerd has already heard. Conrad says that the papers were in a plane that crashed in April 1945 near Dresden. They were pulled from the crash by locals and later recovered by his brother, a German general. Gerd tells Conrad that he works for Stern and that he's very interested in buying the diaries.

• 19:47Scaachi Koul?

  He says he can pay 2 million marks for the whole set, which is the equivalent of almost $100,000 in the US at the time. But Conrad is wary. He tells Gerd that his brother could lose his livelihood and even his life if he gets exposed in the press. So Gerd makes a promise. He will be the only Stern employee Conrad will ever deal with. No one else will ever know Conrad is the source of the diaries. Gerd is elated when Conrad agrees. There's just one problem. Gerd doesn't have the cash, and since he's been doing all of this without his editor knowing anything about it, there's no way he can ask him for the money. So Gerd and his colleague, Thomas, do something pretty wild. They go over their editor's head.

• 20:32Scaachi Koul?

  The two manage to set up a meeting with the corporate brass at Stern's publisher. Typically, journalists are pretty walled off from the publisher and don't discuss editorial matters with them, so this is really unusual. Sarah, I would love to know, what do you think would happen if you tried to do this?

• 20:49Sarah Hagi?

  I think instantly if any journalist would try to have a meeting with a publisher, the publisher would be like, "Did something crazy happen to fire your boss?"

• 20:58Scaachi Koul?

  I think they would just go straight to your boss and be like, "Why is your employee bothering me?"

• 21:03Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, it would just be so unprofessional.

• 21:04Scaachi Koul?

  It's nuts. At the meeting, Gerd and Thomas present a dossier of their research on the diaries, along with the terms of the offer he made to Conrad. The publisher's managing director could question why these two journalists have been lying to their bosses for the last several months. But instead, he's delighted. That afternoon, the publisher gives Gerd 200,000 marks for a deposit on the diaries, without conducting any external verification whatsoever.

• 21:32Sarah Hagi?

  It's one of those instances that happen so often in these stories, where if just one person asked one extra question, it would never happen. And it could easily be figured out that this is fake if you just looked a little harder.

• 21:45Scaachi Koul?

  I know, but nobody was looking. And Gerd doesn't waste any time. He gets on a plane to Stuttgart that night, carrying a suitcase full of cash. Once he lands, he finds the home of his source, Conrad. The two men clink whiskey glasses and talk late into the night. Gerd doesn't go home with a Hitler diary. Conrad tells him his brother still needs to smuggle them in from the east. But they do exchange gifts. Gerd gives Conrad one of Göring's real military uniforms, and Conrad gives Gerd one of his forged Hitler paintings. Just a few weeks later, Conrad visits Gerd's yacht. They split a bottle of sparkling white wine, and Conrad hands over the first three volumes of the diaries. It's the start of a business relationship that will change both of their lives forever.

• 22:30Scaachi Koul?

  Gerd has only one question. How soon can he get the rest?

• 22:40Speaker 04

  You stepped out for your morning jog. Except it's not your usual morning jog. You started listening to an epic sci-fi book on Audible. Thirty chapters later, you've accidentally run a half marathon. You've lost track of how far you've run, somewhere just past the city limits. You can't stop. You have to find out what happens next. Then it's over. The universe seems bigger. You feel different. You feel like you have no idea where you are. Audible. Stories that speak to you.

• 23:11Speaker 05

  Journalist Daphne Caruana Galizia spent her life exposing powerful people. Then, in 2017, she was killed in a car bombing. I'm Stephen Gray, and for the past nine years, I've been trying to find out who wanted her dead. That search took me to Malta through secret companies, organised crime, and eventually to one of the island's richest and most powerful men. Now, after years of waiting, his trial has finally happened. But when the verdict came in, the case took a turn that almost no one had expected. In a brand new update to the multi-award-winning podcast Who Killed Daphne? I'm returning to Malta to find out how we got there and where the search for the truth goes next. Listen to the new episode of Who Killed Daphne wherever you get your podcasts,

• 23:57Speaker 05

  and you can hear the full six-part investigation from the beginning, ad-free with Audible. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app and by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 24:19Scaachi Koul?

  In 1981, Gerd walks into the publishing house with the first Hitler diary volumes. He goes into a room with the few other people who know about what he's holding. And when he lays the volumes out on the table, the room goes silent. Once they hold the actual diaries, they're all desperate to get their hands on the rest of them. For that, they need Gerd to stay in touch with his source. Gerd and Thomas remind everyone to keep their mouths shut. If anyone leaks the discovery, they could endanger the supplier, and Stern could lose access to the remaining diaries. So they convince the suits that no experts should be brought in to verify the diaries until they have a full set, a process that will take several months.

• 24:59Sarah Hagi?

  I mean, I understand the concept of dealing with a delicate source. It just, I don't get how they can make such a big mistake.

• 25:07Scaachi Koul?

  I've never had a story where I've like forked over money like this to a source and not had my editor be looped in.

• 25:14Sarah Hagi?

  Definitely.

• 25:16Scaachi Koul?

  Well, this small group thinks that they have the scoop of the century on their hands. It could rewrite the history of the Third Reich and make Stern's publisher a lot of money. Gerd knows this deal can't go forward without him, and he's in a pretty dire financial situation. So he negotiates a deal. The publisher guarantees him royalties when the diaries are eventually sold as books. This arrangement won't just keep the yacht afloat. Gerd won't have to worry about money for the rest of his life. Gerd starts visiting Conrad every few weeks, handing over envelopes of cash from the publisher in exchange for fresh diaries. And while Conrad is lying to Gerd about who he is and about the veracity of these diaries, Gerd starts keeping a secret of his own. He lies to Conrad about how much the publisher agreed to pay for the diaries,

• 26:01Scaachi Koul?

  and he pockets the difference. Gerd probably thinks this is fair, since he did all the hard work to track Conrad down and get him on board. Besides, he's the only one working with Conrad. Who's gonna find out?

• 26:13Sarah Hagi?

  Wow, a scam within a scam. I think this also proves that Gerd genuinely doesn't care to verify these at all. Like, it's fitting into this weird fanfiction narrative that he and Conrad seem to be obsessed with.

• 26:28Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, and Gerd starts spending the money right away. He and his wife move into two fancy new apartments, buy a bunch of new furniture and carpets, and book first-class tickets on a luxury cruise. His wife gets new jewelry and cars, and Gerd splurges on a ton of new Nazi memorabilia, including a few items from his buddy Conrad. Gerd is living the high life, but there are a few red flags. A few months into the process, a German historian who published a collection of Hitler's early writings issues a public apology. He says he was duped by a hoax. Several of the poems included in the collection are fakes. He says his source was a private individual, but doesn't name them. Thomas worries that the diaries could be from the same source.

• 27:13Scaachi Koul?

  So Thomas urges Gerd to reach out to the historian to make sure. But Gerd doesn't ask the historian for his source. He doesn't want to risk putting an end to his diary situation. Instead, he makes copies of the fake poems and sends them to his personal expert, Conrad. And Conrad says he's never seen them before, even though several of them are, in fact, his own forgeries.

• 27:39Sarah Hagi?

  This is beyond crazy. Are you kidding me? What is even the point of doing that?

• 27:46Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it's hard to tell if Gerd is desperate for the diaries to be real or if he's just dumb. Just a few months into buying the diaries, he sees a passage about a specific SS unit. The former commanding officer of this unit is one of Gerd's friends. So Gerd decides to show off and invites him over to see the diaries. But Gerd's friend is skeptical that Hitler even kept a diary. And when Gerd reads out the relevant entries, the friend points out that the location of the barracks and the name of the unit are wrong. This should be a huge red flag. But Gerd just finds a way to rationalize the errors and moves on. Gerd is so blinded by his fervent belief in the diaries that not even someone who was there can convince him that they might be fake.

• 28:31Scaachi Koul?

  Both Gerd and Stern have a huge financial stake in the story. And if the diaries end up being fakes, Gerd will take the blame. There's no incentive for him to question their authenticity. But someone else is about to threaten Gerd's dream: his boss.

• 28:48Scaachi Koul?

  In May 1981, just a few months after Gerd showed his colleagues the first diaries, his editor, Peter Koch, gets called into a private meeting. Peter is in his mid-40s. He's balding with a prominent nose and looks like a high school football coach. He's meeting with representatives from Stern's publisher, and they reveal a shocking secret. Gerd and Thomas have been working behind the editor's back, and they inform Peter that the magazine will be running with the Hitler diary story. Peter is pissed, but he's not totally shocked. Everyone knows about Gerd's Nazi obsession.

• 29:23Sarah Hagi?

  This is why you should fire the guy at work who has a Nazi obsession.

• 29:30Scaachi Koul?

  This is excellent advice.

• 29:31Sarah Hagi?

  They kind of did this to themselves, knowing everything about Gerd, his interest in it.

• 29:37Scaachi Koul?

  You're right. You're right. They should have known better. Well, Peter gathers with Stern's other top editors, and they talk about what to do. They don't trust Gerd, but they do trust the publisher, in part because he's already invested more than half a million marks into the project. They figure if the suits are willing to splash out this much, the diaries must be real. Now Peter and his co-editors have to weigh their skepticism against the risk of passing on the biggest scoop since the end of the war. And besides, the fact that there actually was a plane crash in that little village makes the diary seem more authentic. The editors begrudgingly admit that Gerd may be right, and they settle in to wait as he continues acquiring the diaries.

• 30:19Scaachi Koul?

  Over the next year, more and more old notebooks pile up inside the safe in the publisher's office. Nobody questions Gerd's insistence on keeping the supplier's identity secret. This is not common journalistic practice. Generally, at least one editor would know the source's name, even if they aren't going to print it. And nobody questions how this massive trove of handwritten diaries exists, given that most historians agree that Hitler did not write a lot of things down. The publishers even go along with it when Conrad tells Gerd that he's discovered additional diaries, bringing the total from 27 to 62. They do notice that the initials on the front of the diaries are wrong. Conrad put FH instead of AH because he misread the Gothic script.

• 31:04Scaachi Koul?

  But they just decide it stands for Fuhrer Hitler.

• 31:08Sarah Hagi?

  If this was real, it would be the scoop of the century. It would change what everyone knows and thinks about Hitler. But that the stakes are that high, and there isn't further verification, and they're just going with it because of the excitement of it all is mind-blowing.

• 31:25Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Sarah, it makes you nuts, but imagine how Peter feels. He is forced to watch as Gerd becomes the publisher's darling. He's told to treat Gerd with better care. Even more annoying, Gerd shrewdly exploits his position to get a raise. Peter is still skeptical, but everyone else at Stern is in too deep. They have to believe the diaries are real, and this belief will color their next steps, even when they finally have to call in an expert.

• 31:55Scaachi Koul?

  It's April 1st, 1983, and Hugh Trevor Roper is relaxing at his country house in Scotland when the phone rings. Hugh is in his late 60s with poofy white hair and glasses. Hugh served in the British Intelligence Service during World War II. And in September 1945, he was given an extraordinary assignment: to figure out if Hitler was really dead. The Soviet Army had taken Berlin, where Hitler hunkered down in the final days of the war. Senior Soviet officers said they'd found his body, but later changed their story after Stalin came out and declared Hitler was still alive. For months, newspapers all over the world were reporting Hitler sightings. They said he was working at a casino on a French resort, or living in a cave by an Italian

• 32:38Scaachi Koul?

  lake, or posing as a fisherman in the Baltic. Hugh's task was to figure out what the hell really happened. He tracked down telegrams and spoke to surviving witnesses who were there with Hitler in his final days. Hugh eventually learned the truth. On April 30th, 1945, Hitler shot himself in the head. Per his instructions, his body was then burned. The Soviets had recovered the remains and were hiding the autopsy for their own political reasons. Hugh turned his report into a book, "The Last Days of Hitler," and he kept tracking down documentation related to Hitler's death, including a copy of Hitler's will, which had been buried near a house on the Austrian border. Since then, Hugh has become a respected academic.

• 33:21Scaachi Koul?

  Basically, if you want someone to verify documents from the Nazi regime, Hugh is your guy. And that's exactly why an editor from The Times, a well-respected British newspaper, is calling him now. The editor has some shocking news. The German magazine Stern claims to have gotten its hands on Hitler's private diaries. The Times is interested in the British publishing rights, but the paper wants to be sure the diaries are the real deal. So they need Hugh's help. There's a lot at stake. Fifteen years ago, The Times sunk a lot of cash into an attempt to publish Mussolini's diary, only to learn that it was fake. The incident seriously threatened the paper's reputation for hard-hitting journalism.

• 34:03Sarah Hagi?

  Okay, this has happened before with Mussolini. Even if they were real, I wouldn't touch that shit with a 10-foot pole after that humiliation. But, okay, go on.

• 34:14Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Hugh is also skeptical. He knows better than anyone that Hitler hated writing by hand. But Hugh agrees to assess the diaries and to keep their existence a secret. A week later, Hugh is about to fly to Zurich, where the diaries are locked in a bank vault. But as he's getting ready to leave for the airport, he gets a phone call from a friend at The Times. And the friend says that Hugh needs to make a preliminary decision about the diaries' authenticity that afternoon. The paper wants to make a deal with Stern so they can shut out the competition from any other UK papers. And this pressure is coming straight from the top: The Times' publisher, Rupert Murdoch.

• 34:53Sarah Hagi?

  And, you know, as we know, Rupert Murdoch, he really respects journalistic integrity and is a titan for a reason.

• 35:01Scaachi Koul?

  Upstanding citizen.

• 35:02Sarah Hagi?

  He cares about the truth, right?

• 35:04Scaachi Koul?

  Well, Hugh is annoyed, but it is really hard to say no to Rupert Murdoch. And his friend at The Times says that they just need an initial opinion. When Hugh lands in Zurich, he's whisked to a private room at a bank. There, laid out on a table at the end of the room, are stacks of diaries. And the rest of the room is filled with other Hitler documents, as well as drawings and paintings by the dictator. When Hugh picks up one of the battered black notebooks, he's overcome by the same magic spell that struck Stern's publishers when they first laid eyes on the diaries. Hugh is no neo-Nazi, but he's dedicated much of his career to studying Hitler. And now, he's holding a potentially earth-shattering historical discovery in his hands.

• 35:47Scaachi Koul?

  Peter, the Stern editor, hands Hugh a dossier Gerd has prepared, which includes the story of the plane crash and samples of Hitler's handwriting. There are a few issues with his examination, though. Peter gives Hugh a file with confirmation from three handwriting analysts, who all agree that the diaries are in Hitler's writing. But no one knows that the sample used to verify Hitler's handwriting was also one of Conrad's forgeries. And when Hugh asks Peter what Stern has done to verify the diaries, Peter says the paper had been chemically tested and found to be from the right time period. He also says the magazine knows the identity of the supplier. But Sarah, none of this is true.

• 36:28Sarah Hagi?

  I don't really understand why Peter is lying. Why lie at this point? Like, I don't really get that.

• 36:35Scaachi Koul?

  It's hard to be the only person saying something isn't when everyone's saying it is, right?

• 36:40Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, I guess that's fair.

• 36:42Scaachi Koul?

  Well, on top of that, Hugh actually isn't the best source for authentication for this project. Because even though he's an expert on Nazis, he doesn't actually speak German. So he has to rely on the Stern team for translations. And like everyone else, Hugh starts rationalizing the diaries. If they're fake, why are there so many of them? Isn't that a lot of work? Why forge dozens when just a few would do? Before Hugh leaves the bank, Peter hands him a document to sign: a pledge of secrecy. Hugh scribbles his name at the bottom and heads back to the hotel. Hugh is under a lot of pressure. He considers calling a German historian he knows to discuss the diaries, but then he remembers his promise not to talk about them.

• 37:24Scaachi Koul?

  So he gives his recommendation based on instinct, rather than careful historical method. He calls his friend at The Times and tells them he thinks the Hitler diaries are real. That same afternoon, his Times friend calls him back from Rupert Murdoch's office. Murdoch is sold. Now, there's only one thing left to do: go public.

• 37:48Scaachi Koul?

  It's April 25, 1983, two weeks after his visit to the Zurich bank. Hugh is in Hamburg, and this is the day the massive Stern scoop hits newsstands. They're publishing a special issue of the magazine packed with salacious excerpts about everything from Hitler's farts to his admiration for Stalin. The diaries are already international news. The Times in London ran a front-page story with excerpts, accompanied by an article Hugh wrote. From the moment Stern announced the existence of the diaries two days ago, critics started questioning their authenticity. So Hugh is in Hamburg to attend a press conference to defend his expert opinion that the diaries are real.

• 38:29Scaachi Koul?

  But the truth is, Hugh is starting to have his doubts. Just a few days ago, a reporter at The Times called to ask if he was really sure about the diaries' authenticity. And although initially Hugh was defensive, the call sowed some doubts. Suddenly, the mountain of documents supporting the story seemed a bit too perfect. He worried why no German experts seemed to have looked at the diaries. To make matters worse, Hugh recently visited Gerd's apartment, and seeing Gerd's incredibly detailed collection of Nazi and dictator memorabilia not only gave Hugh the creeps, it also made him question Gerd's credibility. Hugh called editors at The Times to express his reservations, but it was too late.

• 39:10Scaachi Koul?

  When Rupert got wind of Hugh's change of heart, he just said, "Fuck Hugh, publish."

• 39:16Sarah Hagi?

  Oh my god. Okay, first of all, I respect Hugh's expertise, but he doesn't speak German, okay?

• 39:24Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 39:25Sarah Hagi?

  And imagine going into a guy's apartment and being like, "Oh shit, he loves Nazis, he just doesn't know a lot about them, he loves them. His whole apartment is full of Nazi crap."

• 39:36Scaachi Koul?

  That should have been something he knew before.

• 39:38Sarah Hagi?

  I feel like he's probably spinning out now, being like, "Oh shit, what did I do?"

• 39:44Scaachi Koul?

  Well now, Hugh walks into the Stern canteen where the press conference is being held. It's hot and noisy and packed with more than 200 reporters and two dozen TV crews from all around the world, all sprawled across the very 80s red-orange carpet. Hugh is mic'd up, sitting next to the Stern team as their on-hand expert. The pressure of his doubts becomes too much, so when it's Hugh's turn to weigh in, he takes a deep breath, stares into the distance, and tells the crowd that the diaries might be real, but there is, quote, "such a thing as a perfect forgery." Hugh admits the verification process was rushed and they might have made a mistake.

• 40:25Sarah Hagi?

  You don't say. I mean, honestly, it's probably very embarrassing for Hugh to admit this, but he's the only person doing the right thing here.

• 40:32Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah. Well, Hugh finishes and another historian jumps up to speak. His name is David Irving. He's a once-respected British academic who will later become better known for being a Holocaust denier. But today, David has been flown in by one of The Times' competitors in order to poke holes in the story. David shouts that the diaries are fakes, that they come from a collection he knows is full of forgeries. Peter, the Stern editor, tries to kill David's mic. And at this point, the entire room breaks out into chaos. Reporters stampede forward to interview David, and in the commotion, chairs and even other reporters are knocked over. David asks if the ink has been tested for age, and suddenly, a bizarre chant emerges from the gaggle of press.

• 41:17Scaachi Koul?

  Ink, ink, ink. Hugh can't believe what's happening. He feels a sense of relief after airing his doubts. At least his conscience is clear. But this press conference has gone totally off the rails. Hugh and the Stern editors knew that they were making global news, but now, they've become the story, and the reputations of everyone involved are about to sink into the mud.

• 41:46Speaker 06

  Ghosts aren't real. At least, that's what journalist Tristan Redmond always believed. Sure, odd things happen in his childhood bedroom, but ultimately, he shrugged them off. Until he discovered that he wasn't alone, that everyone who lived thereafter him also had bizarre experiences they couldn't explain. And it gets even weirder. It just so happens that his wife's great-grandmother was murdered in the house next door. Is this ghost somehow connected to her murder? He decides to go where no son-in-law should, digging up a cold case and asking questions that nobody wants answered. Like, could his wife's great-grandfather have gotten away with the perfect crime? This is a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things

• 42:30Speaker 06

  that come back to haunt us. For the best bingeable series like Ghost Story, listen to the Audible True Crime Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can get all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

• 42:46Speaker 07

  I'm Gemma Whelan, and in the new season of The Spy Who, we tell the story of the original femme fatale, the spy who was Mata Hari. A famous dancer turned World War I secret agent, accused of seducing Allied officers to uncover their plans. But was she a temptress or a scapegoat for French failures? Follow The Spy Who now, wherever you listen to podcasts. You can also listen to the full season of The Spy Who Was Mata Hari, early and at free on Audible.

• 43:24Scaachi Koul?

  Four days after the press conference, Konrad is at Gerd's Nazi archive in Hamburg. He's been closely watching the news coverage of the diaries, but Konrad is still confident that he'll get away with the forgeries. He's been creating fake Nazi documents for years now. And besides, he figures Stern wouldn't have published the diaries without convincing enough authorities that they were genuine. Now, he's here in Hamburg to give Gerd the final four volumes of the diaries. Gerd hands him part of the money he owes for the books, and an IOU for the rest. Then, Gerd tells Konrad about a map he's come across that supposedly shows where a trove of Nazi treasures is buried in East Berlin. Gerd offers Konrad a reward if he'll go and dig it up. But Konrad is immediately suspicious.

• 44:09Scaachi Koul?

  He throws it back at Gerd, suggesting he come along too. Gerd declines, saying he can't cross the border at the moment. And that's all Konrad needs to hear. He suspects Gerd may be planning to call the East German police and turn him in. So he takes his money and he leaves. Konrad's deal with Gerd has made him rich. And though no one knows his name, his work has been splashed all over the news. And it's about to reshape history. But first, it has to pass one final test.

• 44:41Scaachi Koul?

  About two weeks after the disastrous press conference, Felix Schmidt, one of Peter's co-editors, gathers the Stern newsroom for a solemn meeting. Stern has been under enormous public pressure to verify the diaries, so they finally sent several volumes to the German Federal Archives to be independently investigated. And the results are in. The diaries are fakes. And crude ones at that. There were tons of smoking guns. The information in the diary relies heavily on one book. Some of the dates are wrong. The paper contains a whitening agent that didn't exist until after World War II. And David, the Holocaust denier, was right. The ink used in the diaries is also post-war.

• 45:25Sarah Hagi?

  When "the Holocaust denier" in the story is correct about a fact,

• 45:31Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah.

• 45:31Sarah Hagi?

  it shows how freaking easy this would have been to uncover.

• 45:35Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, it's embarrassing stuff. And now Felix has to deliver the news to the team alone, because Peter is in New York on a press tour defending the diary's authenticity. Peter really doubled down after that press conference, appearing on TV to shoot down Stern's critics. He even wrote a two-page editorial saying the doubters were just jealous. And the magazine kept printing excerpts from the diaries. They'd already published two Hitler diary issues and have a third one at the printer right now. But Felix tells the staff that they're literally stopping the presses. Everyone has to work late to redo the issue.

• 46:14Scaachi Koul?

  Felix needs to talk to Gerd, who has continued to swear on his children's lives that the diaries are genuine. But Gerd is nowhere to be found. Later that night, Gerd finally calls the office from Munich. Stern sends a private plane to pick him up and take him back to Hamburg. When Gerd lands around 11:00 PM, a Stern car takes him straight to the office. Felix and his colleagues take turns interrogating Gerd all night. They tell him the jig is up and demand to know who gave him the diaries. Around 5 a.m., Gerd finally cracks under the pressure. He tells the editors he's been buying the diaries from a man named Conrad Fischer. The Stern team makes some calls, do the basic reporting Gerd never bothered to do,

• 46:55Scaachi Koul?

  and within a few hours, find out that Conrad Fischer is actually Conrad Cujo, a petty criminal with a long history of telling lies. Felix can't believe that he and his team allowed this to happen. When Peter gets back to Hamburg, they both put in their resignations. And now, it's time for the true Hitler hoaxsters, Gerd and Conrad, to face the music as well.

• 47:21Scaachi Koul?

  It's September 1984, over a year since the diaries were published. Conrad and Gerd are in a Hamburg courtroom, looking at a picture of underpants projected on a giant screen. The prosecution explains that the underwear was part of Gerd's massive collection of items that were supposedly Nazi and other dictator-related memorabilia, which the cops seized. Gerd and Conrad are both on trial for fraud, as the prosecution tries to determine who was lying to who and how the scam went down. But Conrad wasn't about to give in on his cushy life of crime. Once he got wind that the diaries had been exposed as fakes, he and his common-law wife Edith went on the run to Austria, along with his mistress.

• 48:04Scaachi Koul?

  Conrad decided Edith and his mistress, Maria, had too much dirt on him. He couldn't let them stay behind in Germany, so the three of them crashed with Maria's parents for a while. She slept alone in the living room, while Conrad and Edith shared a bed.

• 48:18Sarah Hagi?

  I don't think I've ever experienced a character coming in this late in the story who captivates my attention this way. Maria, stand up!

• 48:27Scaachi Koul?

  Maria, stand up! My god. Well, after a few days of lying low in this incredibly awkward housing situation, Conrad sees his own face on TV, wanted in connection with the fraud. He learns that his home and store back in Stuttgart had been raided, and so he knows it's over. So he says goodbye to his wife and mistress and returns to Germany, where he is promptly arrested. Conrad is furious when he learns that Gerd was taking a huge cut of the payments. So he tells the prosecutor that Gerd put him up to forging the diaries and was in on the fraud all along, though Gerd denies this. Now, they aren't speaking to each other, and they're at the center of a huge media circus. As the trial drags on for almost a year,

• 49:12Scaachi Koul?

  Conrad is the undisputed star of the show. While Gerd sports a prison beard and seems like an emotional wreck, Conrad sells his life rights, gives TV interviews from his jail cell, and charms his prison guards. And every reporter who visits him is given a forged diary as a souvenir. His lawyer argues that Conrad wasn't motivated by money. Rather, he's just an artist who took pride in his work. Somehow, Conrad comes across as a lovable scam. And Gerd and the Stern editors come across as blinded by the money they stood to make by publishing such a huge story.

• 49:47Sarah Hagi?

  I think because he's really leaning into the crime and turning it into a joke, Conrad is able to kind of not get away with it, but turn into this media darling because he's so openly like, "Here, you want a fake diary?" Whereas Gerd was really trying to prove something here because of his deep obsession and love of all things Nazi-related.

• 50:11Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, I guess only one of them was doing it for the love of the game, Sarah. On July 8, 1985, Conrad is found guilty of forgery and given a sentence of four years and six months. Edith gets eight months probation for receiving some of Conrad's scam earnings. Conrad's mistress, Maria, doesn't face criminal charges. Having to sleep on her parents' couch while the three of them were in hiding was punishment enough. Gerd is found guilty of embezzling more than 1.5 million marks from his employer and sentenced to four years and eight months. Despite the sentence, Conrad is likely proud of how he managed to fool so many supposedly smart people for so long. Gerd's reputation has been deeply scarred by the scandal, but Conrad's star is still on the way up.

• 50:55Scaachi Koul?

  This scam will set him up for a whole new career, cashing in on his notoriety as a forger.

• 51:03Scaachi Koul?

  It's the mid 90s and Conrad is in an art gallery in Stuttgart. He looks around at the paintings on the walls, works by Paul Gauguin, René Magritte, Leonardo da Vinci, and Claude Monet, and all of them bearing the same signature: Conrad's. Conrad served three years in prison for his audacious fraud. While he was locked up, he was happy to share tons of details with reporters about how he created his Hitler forgeries, and he seemed very proud of his scam. When he got out, he started living life as a minor celebrity. He made TV appearances and started forging masterpieces. Conrad exploited his newfound celebrity status by selling his paintings as, "original Cujo forgeries", for as much as 7,000 Deutschmarks,

• 51:47Scaachi Koul?

  the equivalent of over $4,000 today. In 1996, he ran for mayor of Stuttgart and lost. Then, in 1999, he was fined after a police raid on his home uncovered several forged driver's licenses. Can you read what the German judge in that case told Conrad in court?

• 52:05Sarah Hagi?

  Yeah, he said, "You are very apparently a man who is attracted by that which is illegal." Yeah, that's one way to put it. Conrad clearly loves attention and has an knack for forgery.

• 52:19Scaachi Koul?

  You know, he had a gift. In 2000, Conrad announced he had cancer. He opened another gallery in Mallorca to help pay for his treatment, but in September of that year, he died in Stuttgart. But Conrad's success as a forger inspired at least one more person: his assistant, Petra Cujo. After his death, Petra picks up her old boss's game of telling people what they want to believe. She realizes that people will pay tons of money for a Conrad Cujo forgery, so why not forge the forgeries? She starts telling people she's Conrad's great niece. She travels to Asia, where she buys copies of famous paintings created by local students for next to nothing. Petra brings the canvases back to Germany, where she passes them off as copies made by Conrad Cujo, and she makes 300,000 euros.

• 53:04Sarah Hagi?

  Good for her. Yeah, rooting for her.

• 53:07Scaachi Koul?

  However, these forgeries are not as good as the ones Conrad did, and there are just way too many of them, around 300 in all. Conrad taught art after getting out of prison, and when one of his former students notices Petra's con, he alerts to authorities. In 2010, Petra is convicted of fraud, though she gets a light sentence of community service. Okay, so where's the rest of our cast? The only thing Rupert Murdoch ever said about the scandal was, quote, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained. After all, we are in the entertainment business." In 2002, an article in Der Spiegel accused Gerd of being a Stasi spy working on a plot to embarrass West Germany. He denies this.

• 53:48Scaachi Koul?

  As of 2008, he was living in poverty and very bitter about what happened. In 2013, he tried to get the diaries back from Stern's publisher, citing a clause in his original contract. Gerd died in a hospital in Hamburg, Germany at the end of 2024 at 93. Stern's reputation took a big hit, but ultimately it recovered and is still a successful magazine today. Hugh apologized for his role in verifying the diaries, and his reputation also recovered. He died in 2003. In 1992, the whole fiasco was dramatized in a German comedy movie called Stank. It's also been made into a British TV series in 1991 called Selling Hitler, based on the book,

• 54:29Scaachi Koul?

  and a German TV mini-series in 2021 called Faking Hitler. In 2023, the German public broadcaster published the completed diaries, including annotations by a historian. Sarah, what'd you learn? Do you understand more why someone would be like, "You know what? I want to own a diary by a guy who like did murder. I love diaries by genocidal freaks."

• 54:54Sarah Hagi?

  You know, I understand wanting to read something like that if it existed and you're a historian or a journalist or there's greater context. Like, the idea of them existing and getting a glimpse into one of the most famous people to have ever existed makes sense, of course. But what I can't wrap my head around still, even as this story concludes, is that everyone should have known better. Like, if something seems too good to be true, it is when it comes to journalism. Nothing falls in your lap like that, ever.

• 55:28Scaachi Koul?

  What do you think all these people wanted in looking back? Like, why would all these people want to read it?

• 55:34Sarah Hagi?

  I think it's less about the content and more about... The acquisition, imagine being the paper that gets the Hitler diaries.

• 55:44Scaachi Koul?

  Do you know what this story reminds me of a bit is the episode we did on Stephen Glass?

• 55:48Sarah Hagi?

  Yes.

• 55:49Scaachi Koul?

  Where it's like, there's so many processes that are put in place in a magazine to make sure something like this doesn't happen. And then there are certain precious little baby angel writers and they get to break the rules and they are the ones who ruin it for everybody.

• 56:04Sarah Hagi?

  Well, I think there's a lot of reasons why, like, again, if you're driven not by the truth, but of awards and glory and having the right people working somewhere and pandering to the right audience and, you know, now advertisers and all this kind of stuff, like, you're never going to be fully honest or do a good job, right?

• 56:25Scaachi Koul?

  When someone fakes a bunch of diaries of me, how will you prove that they are fake? What will you look for?

• 56:31Sarah Hagi?

  Hmm. I think there's like an equilibrium for you of like, obviously being a hater.

• 56:38Scaachi Koul?

  Yes.

• 56:38Sarah Hagi?

  And also like having kind of hope in the world.

• 56:42Scaachi Koul?

  I have some, yeah.

• 56:44Sarah Hagi?

  So I feel like if one of those was not on the right level, I would know for sure that it wasn't you.

• 56:50Scaachi Koul?

  Oh, wow. That was a really beautiful answer. I thought it was gonna be like more disgusting or stupid.

• 56:55Sarah Hagi?

  No, I would, I'm really serious about your diaries and I will burn them when you die. Don't worry.

• 57:01Scaachi Koul?

  Thank you.

• 57:02Sarah Hagi?

  Wait, do you think I should keep a diary?

• 57:05Scaachi Koul?

  No.

• 57:06Sarah Hagi?

  But what if someone fakes none then?

• 57:08Scaachi Koul?

  Were you listening to the story? It ends with us finding out that they're fake.

• 57:12Sarah Hagi?

  Well, Hitler was not redeemed through these diaries, at least.

• 57:16Scaachi Koul?

  No, still anti Hitler after all this.

• 57:19Sarah Hagi?

  Except for the part where he's like, man, maybe we shouldn't have burned those books.

• 57:23Scaachi Koul?

  Yeah, you know what? If Hitler had been like, mm, I should, you know, I think maybe we were a little too hard on the Jews. I'd be like, well, it's a good diary. But he didn't say that.

• 57:31Sarah Hagi?

  No, he didn't. He didn't say that, so.

• 57:33Scaachi Koul?

  Famously Hitler did not say, I don't know about this, guys. He didn't say that.

• 57:44Scaachi Koul?

  Follow Scamfluencers on the Audible app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to all episodes of Scamfluencers ad-free by joining Audible.

• 57:54Scaachi Koul?

  This is The Hitler Hoax. I'm Sachi Cole.

• 57:57Sarah Hagi?

  And I'm Sarah Haggy. If you have a tip for us on a story that you think we should cover, please email us at [email protected]. We use many sources in our research. A few that were particularly helpful were the book Selling Hitler by Robert Harris, Sally McRae's article, Diary of Hitler Diary Hoax in The New Yorker, and season 15 of Wondery's own British Scandal podcast, which covers the Hitler Diaries.

• 58:22Scaachi Koul?

  Susie Armitage wrote this episode. Additional writing by us, Sachi Cole and Sarah Haggy. Eric Thurm and Olivia Brierly are our story editors. Fact checking by Lexi Peery. Sound design by James Morkin. Additional audio assistance provided by Augustine Lim. Our music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Freeze on Sync. Our managing producer is Desi Blalock. Our senior managing producer is Callum Pluse. Janine Cornolo and Stephanie Jens are our development producers. Our associate producer is Charlotte Miller. Our producer is Julie McGruder. Our senior producers are Sarah Enney and Ginny Bloom. Our executive producers are Jenny Lauer Beckman, Marshall Louis, and Erin O'Flaherty. For Wondery.

• 59:09Speaker 08

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• 59:52Speaker 08

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