The Sales Evangelist
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If you're a sales rep, one of the things you need to do now more than ever is stand out from the pack. You have to differentiate yourself. Who best to bring on a podcast than the one and only Seth Godin? Today, we're going to be diving into the archives, pulling out this episode that I feel is more relevant today, now than ever. Check it out.
Hey, hey, hey, everyone. Welcome to another great episode of the Sales Evangelist Podcast. I'm your host, Donald C. Kelly, the Sales Evangelist, and I'm so excited for another great episode. I'm so excited to be here with you today. On this episode, I'm bringing on the one and only Seth Godin. Well, we're going back into archives and bringing Seth on the podcast. We recorded an episode with Seth a while back, but the concept that Seth shared was around this book that was launching, The Practice, and also how this helps us, the concept of differentiating ourself, which is important nowadays. Emails is tough. Phone is tough. How can you stand out? You've got to do something that's differentiating you, and this is going to help you. If this is your first time listening to our podcast, please subscribe or follow me on LinkedIn.
I'd greatly appreciate it, or I should say, and, and make sure you tell someone else about the show. As we dive in, get a chance to connect with Seth, you'll learn about some of his amazing things with this new book, and see how this can apply right now to you in your outreach efforts.
Seth, welcome to the show.
Well, thanks for having me.
I'm grateful for you being here. One of the things that we find with, that we're going to talk about today is how salespeople can accomplish their success in their roles with accomplishing, excuse me, I guess embodying the idea from the book, The Practice. We're going to talk about that here in a little bit. And also some principles of just being different, and I am going to beg on some of the, the concept from Purple Cow for that idea. But before we dive into that part there, Seth, I'm just curious, you've written many books, but now you have The Practice. Why did you decide to write this book at this particular time?
I think it had to do with people wanting to read this book at this particular time. The thing is that when I started my work, it was very tactical. It was about permission marketing and about how technology shifted a key component to how we talk to people. What happens over time is people figure out the tactics, but then they get stuck on how to execute. And the reason they're stuck is not because they have a tactical problem. It's because there's fear, there's misunderstanding, and we hold ourselves back. And so the arc of my work has been to lean further into, what is the practice of how we learn to trust ourselves?
And how do we get there after or before we've mastered the tactics?
I mean, I remember many different instances in my life where I fell in that category of, and more in particular with my craft of selling. And a couple of things from the chapter here is different from the book that I felt resonated with that. And also, it contradicts what is taught in a general sales arena. But I want to ask you, because I know you're full of marketing details and wonderful insights on that. When it comes towards sales, you interact with salespeople and people pitching you all the time. What are some of the big problems you're seeing right now from that salespeople have, whether for the past several years or just your feeling? What holds salespeople back from a consumer perspective or from your view outside of you?
All right, well, so I was an insider for a really long time.
Oh, yeah.
I've made thousands and thousands of sales calls. What we have here is a real disconnect between what selling used to be and what selling is now. Before the internet, before people had information, the customer didn't know as much as the salesperson. That what you needed to do as a salesperson was be sort of a human conduit, a human web page in between the people you were selling to in the company. But companies have solved that problem, and so have consumers. There's almost no product that if you really want it, you can't buy it without a salesperson. You can't just skip the salespeople, do your research, click Buy Now, and you have it.
So what's the purpose of being a salesperson? And for me, the purpose is not that you're a clerk or that you're a cog in the machine. The purpose is that you are engaging in a transference of emotion, that you are not only listening carefully, but you are putting yourself on the hook to the person across the table from you to say, I see you, I hear you, and this is what might make sense for you. But this kind of salesperson is just as often sending people to a competitor as they are proposing their own product. Because if you're not doing that, then you're falling into the trap of being a selfish narcissist, hustling people, and this is not going to work.
Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I laughed because I think so many of us, it's that's the way that we're taught, though. And I don't think we realize how detrimental that is towards the, we don't see, we don't see the ramification of it because it's just we have our heads down doing that. And I think it's, it doesn't work. Do you feel that this is something that the sales rep is, you know, totally responsible to do? Or is there something that we can have the leadership take part in to alleviate that?
Well, I think it's eighty percent on the leadership because they have it structures, measurements, rewards that push people to pump and dump, that push people to hustle. And they pretend they want a collaborative sales force, but they don't reward that. And one of the reasons they don't is the salespeople don't push them to. And so when they try to do collaborative kinds of selling, the salespeople don't lean into it as much as they might. And, you know, Zig Ziglar, who was my teacher and my friend, he told the story of being a cookware salesperson. And he had a friend who was down on his luck and was also a salesperson and wasn't selling anything. And Zig went to his house for dinner
and he noticed that the guy was using cheap cookware. He wasn't using the company's cookware. And Zig said, well, I know what your problem is, and I'm going to solve it because I'm going to sell you a set of our cookware tonight, and I'm going to keep the commission. And he worked with the guy on all the objections. And in the next year, the guy's sales went through the roof because when the person he was selling to had objections going forward, he could say to himself, yeah, I used to say the same thing, but then I bought him this cookware and my life got better. He didn't say that to the person he was selling to. He said it to himself. And that's where the transfer of emotion happened. That too often, you know, you've got the great uncle who's a life insurance salesperson
who's busy selling annuities, but doesn't buy them for himself because his whole mindset is this is his job, not a service he's providing. And my argument is if you're not proud of it, you probably shouldn't sell it.
Yeah. Oh, I love that. And it's kind of like the shoe maker's shoe has the worst shoes, right? Fast forward a little bit, Shetan, because I really love what you're discussing here because I think it lines up very closely with this concept now of the practice. You, one of the things you talk about in the practice is this idea of trust yourself. And I would love to see how that could tie in because I think this guy, go back to what Zig was talking about, this individual, did they, did they, did they see that trust in himself? Did they see that trust in the product that they're selling? Did they see the trust in the company? And, you know, how can that idea of trust yourself from the practice help an individual sales rep?
So it's entirely possible you work for the world's worst boss. And let me tell you what I mean. This is somebody who wakes you up in the middle of the night, second guessing everything you did today. It's somebody who is never quite satisfied with your best work. It's someone who is always undermining your vision for where to go. And of course, we're talking about you, that we do this to ourselves. And the challenge that we have to trust ourselves is to realize there are two voices in our head all the time. There's a voice in our head that's afraid, that's grasping, that wants reassurance. That voice is constantly undermining our best work. And the other voice is generous and connected and playing the long game.
And what it means to trust yourself is to have that short-term hustle voice. Be quiet just for a little bit. And listen deeply to what you would do if you knew the people who cared about you were watching.
I feel like the one there about the last piece, the people who care about you were watching, I've never thought about that, to be honest, like in the way that I've performed. And I'm trying to question myself as you mentioned it, like, why was that the case? Like, I don't understand why I don't, why don't I don't think about it like that. But it's, I think if I did, I'm thinking about my two-year-old kid right now, or my, you know, wife, if they're, if they were watching me, I think that'll make a difference, or if I thought that way. But I don't know, I guess I compartmentalize it and I go back to this guy with insurance sales, you know what I mean?
Yeah, well, it's, it's not you, it's the system. And one of the things so transformative about Bring Your Daughter to Work Day is not just that the daughters got to see that moms had important jobs, it was that moms had to come to grips with the fact that they had made compromises because of the system. And here they were bringing in this important human being to their work, and they had to explain what they did all day. And in the industrial economy, the answer is, I'm a cog in the system, and what I do all day is do what I'm told. And what you're need is a revolution around, if you want to be a great salesperson, don't do what you're told, do what needs to be done.
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And you know, Seth, I made this, we have a series coming up on our podcast. It's called a future of selling. One of the things that I'm putting in there, because you've probably seen this, is that the BDRs, like I love watching football just as much as any other football fan. And one of the things that if you had both teams running in the same exact play, it's going to be a boring game because it's not going to have any type of efficacy or in any type of success there. And I see that with comes towards companies where you have the business development reps from different companies running the same exact play. Like you do this, you do the first phone call, you do the email, then you send them the breakup email. And I'm like, it's not going anywhere. And I think there is a this, this article that I was reading, four article and it
ties talks about how that there is this disconnect when it comes towards the sales and the marketing component and how B to C companies tend to be a little bit further ahead than B to B companies. And I think many of the buyers these days, I feel are just, it's just a matter of time before we just start to go back to what you said at the very beginning, like, I don't need a sales rep to do this for me. I can do this myself. And I think because so many salespeople are not adding value, how do we get the individual consumers now, individual contributor, sales reps to go back to this idea, recognize themselves that they're not a cog in a wheel and to just break the rules, to go rogue, so to speak, leave the script and to get out and make something and make something creative or unique. I don't know if I'm making sense with this, Seth.
You're making great sense. If you Google BDR, the first match is actually back country discovery routes. Which I love because that's what great salespeople are doing. Backcountry discovery routes. What we need, particularly in a B2B setting, is not for each organization to have a replaceable salesperson all lined up to argue about some RFP. Because if that's all that's at stake, you're going to lose exactly your percentage of sale. Like if there's 10 competitors, you're going to get 10% of them. If you're all the same, what it means to do backcountry discovery is to say, whose status is going to go up? Where is affiliation at stake?
Where are the relationships that truly matter? Because they're not buying what we make. If they're buying what we make, they find someone cheaper than us to do it. They're buying the story they tell themselves and their boss about what we make. And so what it means to do BDR is that you tell stories. And those salespeople are harder to find and harder to hire and harder to retain. Okay, good. Because the organizations that figure out how to do that hard work are going to come out ahead.
Oh, so darn true on that. I think there is, when I look at it from my standpoint, from a consumer perspective, I've had people who reach out to me to sell particular products or services. And one thing that I personally like is when they're able to take something that I'm doing in my business and tie it back to how they can bring value to me. And I think we just, it's too sad, and to go back to one of the comments you made earlier about leaders, is that the leaders are the system that has it set up that way where we don't allow them to want to think. I would love for sales work to just get super creative for me. I mean, it's kind of a challenge to get creative for all the deals, but it's, you can make
100 calls in a day or do 10 really personalized, research, effective outreach. I think I would rather get that 10 because I think a portion of those will turn into appointment rather than one of the 100. You know what I mean?
Oh, yeah. There's a great book called Let's Get Real or Let's Not Play. And what it says is in high-value B2B selling.
You begin by saying, do you want to go on a journey with me for me to sell you this? Cause it's going to take a lot of my time and we're going to discover a lot of things that will help you. If you don't, I got other people to call on. And that kind of involvement where both sides realize that the sales process has value is the only way forward because the alternative is I'll just buy it online. What am I paying your commission for?
Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm writing this down here. I really like this. I'm gonna check this book out. Let's get real or let's not play. And I'm going to have that conversation with my team.
Seth, the other thought that came to mind that as I was going through the practice was this idea, the notion here again of when this individual contributor in sales rep, their task and they're rewarded based on the outcome of their role. And I imagine when, you know, from a sales leader listening to that book or reading it, they're probably like, holy crap. You're telling me I want my sales rep to focus on the activity, not the outcome. I don't know if I can do that. Talk to me about that a little bit further. In many instances in the book, one of the, I think about a juggling example you shared where if you're teaching somebody to juggle, it's not, it's about just like, just one ball at a time. You might speak into that for a second.
Sure. If we look at all the people who are walking around saying that they were instrumental to Google's success because they were part of the early sales team. I think, I hope we can agree that none of them had anything to do with Google's success. Because the sales team isn't why Google succeeded. Google succeeded because they made a product that sold itself. And if we're going to measure salespeople only on the outcome, then we have to figure out how to normalize that based on, well, what have you been selling? Cause if you're selling something that you sell, it's different than if you're selling something that's hard to sell. Whereas what I teach in the practice is juggling is not about catching. Juggling is about throwing. If you get good at throwing, like just take care of themselves.
And the same thing is true for almost every job in the organization, including sales. If you get good at the prep of your job, the results take care of themselves. On the other hand, if you're getting rewarded for getting lucky with your results, then you're just going to end up trying to hire a bunch of lucky people and that's hard to scale.
I think there's a book out there, it's called. Man, I can't think of it right now. It's the authors, they focused this concept and I, one of my, it was a college book too, but they focused this concept on the activities and they have something they'd call the AOR. And it's the idea behind this is that your activities, your objectives and your results. And they kept it in that order because they say, salespeople, if I go to a sales rep and tell them the result, I want you to get more appointments, they can't pull a lever and make that happen, but they can do the activity, they can perfect that. In this case, maybe the phone call or the, you know, the message that they're saying, that's what they have control of.
And I think that's where we, we find that there's, you know, we have a disconnect. And I don't feel, maybe I'm wrong, Seth, but you've been around this arena too. I don't see many salespeople, even if you go back to the idea of their practice, seeing their practice as something that they need to floor about, I'm going to work to do this job. I wouldn't want to work with a doctor who is only going to practice on me. I'd rather that person practice prior before coming in to meet with me. Your experience on that side as well, thoughts, feelings on that?
Well, here's a hypothetical.
Sure.
What would your day be like if people had to pay a hundred dollars to have a sales call with you?
Dude, I think I'd close a lot more deals.
Or maybe a thousand, right? What kind of sales technique and knowledge would you have to have to justify charging a company 500 or a thousand dollars to meet with you? And I don't think it's silly to act that way. Like back when I was building one of the first internet companies, we could get a meeting with anybody because it was 1991, 92, and there was someone whose job was new media. And all they had to do all day was go to meetings with people like us. So it was easy. What we discovered was it almost always completely wasted our time because their job was to go to meetings, their job wasn't to buy any. And so we started acting like
they were have to pay for us to meet with them. And we were qualifying them in the sense of saying, are you enrolled in this journey? Is this a problem you're trying to solve? Tell me, how else in your organization have you tried to solve this problem before? And we had to raise our game to earn that conversation. Because if you're just busy dialing for meetings, you're begging. And I think instead, what we're talking about is professional salespeople offer. And if the person you're contacting isn't open to your offer, either you're contacting the wrong people, or your offer isn't good enough.
Yeah, there's a, I think you're, the concept here, like going back from me, just in my individual contributor role in the past, like, I can tell you that a lot of the offers that I gave was just to hit quota. And it was, I see the difference here from an individual that become a consultant rather than a order taker in that vein. Like, an order taker is just going to show up and throw up. The, asking that question, I think it takes a lot more confidence in your ability. And if you're, especially, I think, young BDRs oftentimes, I don't feel that they either, and I think this falls back on the individual
in this part, they don't put themselves in a situation to be seen as the expert. It's more of, we see them as, I guess, it's, it's, you're a BDR, you're just getting the appointment. But I think that's just so limiting in that capability. If I could go back, man, and just like that idea that you shared, if I could go back as a entry level seller, I think it would catapult my career further if I thought myself as a consultant sooner than later. Now, I mean, if I did charge, I charge people, maybe not a thousand dollars per the hour right now, but we do charge them for that. And it does make a bigger difference in the swagger, I guess, that I carry in that vein. And I think it makes more meaningful conversation.
Yeah, it's a great point. Let me lift one idea on its head, though, which is, instead of saying, I need to be an expert, maybe you could say, I know all the questions.
Interesting.
That if a young BDR is coming up, and they can learn enough from their colleagues to find the 10 questions that change everything. That's really useful because that isn't about pushing someone to buy your answer. It's about being present for someone to find their answer.
Yeah, I feel I really like that. I'm gonna make sure that goes in the show notes. Knowing that questions to ask, and I think one of the pieces there you also mentioned that I feel is important is being willing to ask for the help, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Sales is one of those areas that you feel you have to have the knowledge yourself. But some of the best sales reps are great at asking questions. We did a series on some of the best sellers in history. And when we analyzed it, that's one of the things I saw is that all of them were just great at asking questions.
But the other, you know, if you, if you look at my friend Fred Wilson's blog, Fred is one of the most successful venture capitalists of all time. And Fred often, probably more than half the time, sends good entrepreneurs to other investors. And if you want to have a cadre of great salespeople, you need to reward them, actually reward them for having their prospects eagerly buy from one of your competitors. If that's not happening, then you're basically selfish. Because obviously, the people who buy from your competitors aren't stupid, right? They're not idiots. If you don't, you know, if you walk into a Mercedes dealership
and talk about the fact that you want a $12,000 car to take you back and forth to the station, they shouldn't try to upsell you to a Maybach. They should say, here is how you get to the Chevy dealership. It's three blocks ago. Tell them I sent you. And that is a gift for everybody, instead of pretending you have the answer to every question. Part of what it means to be a coach and a consultant is to be able to say to the person after they answer the question, we're not the right answer for you. And that's how you know you're good.
Oh, shoot, man. So, so darn true. So all you sales leaders listening to this episode, I want you to make sure you understand that. Figure out a way you can get a KPI in there. How many people are referring to the competitor?
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Seth, I want to ask a question here, and this ties back to the Alt MBA. Because the thought that you're sharing, this is what makes you, in my view, like, one of the things that you do so well is you do flip the script a lot on, I guess, the common thinking. And the idea here was the Jackson Pollock piece. You mentioned one of my friends, he was in part of your, his name was Jordan Benjamin. He was a part of your Alt MBA. And he said, one day, you took him to the museum, and you showed him the Jackson Pollock piece. And you told him, there are several pieces there that really stand out. And one of the reasons behind this was because he pushed the envelope when it came to art. Am I making sense, or did I get it right?
I'm remembering the story. Yeah, keep going.
Yeah. So, one of the pieces that he was, and I was talking to him, he's a sales guy as well. And he said, like, that piece was, that idea was very effective for him, because obviously, that was able to help him in so many different areas of his life. But just because of that idea from Jackson Pollock, that this artwork, would you be willing to share, tell us, what was that piece of art that was so revolutionary with Jackson Pollock? And how does that principle can tie back to a sales rep who's listening to us, but maybe not have the courage to push the envelope and try different things?
Jackson Pollock had a brother named Charles. And Charles is a painter as well. And two of them took lessons from one of the greatest painters of the early 20th century, a guy named Thomas Hart Benton. You can look up Benton's work online. He was a muralist for the WPA. And Charles Pollock grew up to be a painter who painted paintings that looked just like Thomas Hart Benton. And no one ever heard of Charles Pollock. And Jackson Pollock painted paintings that most people hated. This is really important to understand, that Jackson Pollock, if he got $5,000 for a painting, it was a lot of money.
And so, the thing that's going on here is, the way a $50 million Jackson Pollock painting comes into the world, is because when it's first created... Almost no one likes it. And the thing that drives most people into selling, not the ones who stick, but most people, is they like to be liked and they want to fit in in a socially acceptable way. But great salespeople are willing to bring friction to the table, the fifth hammer, the alternative voice, to help people get out of their rut. And they know that sometimes they're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Just like Jackson Pollock felt like he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But when the right collectors saw his work, it transformed everything. And to stand in Malmo with the coaches from the alt MBA that day and to look at this painting that had been reviled and was now treasured, that's the message. Don't look for gimmicks. Don't look for stunts. Find something that stands the test of time, but something that at first isn't what everybody wants to do.
Man, I've never, yeah, I've never heard of Jackson Pollock's brother. And this makes a lot of sense. I see this with so many businesses though. And I see this with so many sellers and so many people we, we do want to fit in. I can tell you, I got into sales because of that notion. I had a picture set in my mind. I had to look a certain way. I had to play golf. I mean, I took a golf class because I live in Florida and I was going to school in Idaho. And I was like, I gotta learn how to play golf. I'm going into business. And it was just because this picture that was in my mind, I'm grateful I did. I love golfing now. But it was, I was falling, falling into the mold. And it wasn't until later on, one of my friends taught me this idea. In order to be successful, do the opposite of what everyone else is doing. And I have to zig when everyone else is zagging.
And that's where this, I feel that we can really stand out. And, and go back to this concept now we're talking about BDR standing out. I just feel so many BDRs. I had an event last week in Utah and a lot of the BDRs. I mean, if you, I couldn't tell any difference between them and their colleagues because they all do the same thing. They're all facing the same challenges. And they're not willing or don't know how to, which is why I was really excited for this episode on how they could think different and be the Jackson Pollock. I think I need to make a T-shirt. I'm the Jackson Pollock for sales and how I can do that. So. Coming up on the end here, Seth, but really like this Jackson Pollock idea and standing out really comes back to tying back to like the notions and everything you talk about here
in a practice kind of tied back for me to the origins, my first book that you wrote that I read, which was Purple Cow. And the principle there is we just have to be, we have to look for ways that for, and I took from it was that if I'm looking at that field of all those beautiful cows, the same color, if there's one that was purple, it would stand out. What can sellers do to make sure they're purple in this era that we're talking about with, with BDRs and the way sales is right now?
Okay. So there's a lot of nuance here and I, it won't take me very long, but this is a rant. So here we go.
Jackson Pollock did not succeed because he stood out. You can stand out by doing absurd, selfish, stupid stunt. Jackson Pollock succeeded because at the beginning, there were a dozen collectors who wanted to be insiders. They wanted to affiliate with each other. They wanted to do what the others were doing. And then once they were on board, they gained in status when they persuaded other collectors that they were ahead of them because they had discovered Jackson Pollock. They talked about Jackson Pollock. Jackson Pollock didn't cold call anyone. Jackson Pollock didn't hustle anyone. The people who benefited from spreading the word about Jackson Pollock
benefited because they were early in and their status went up when they got other people to join in. So what makes something a purple cow is not that you stand out in a crowd. What makes you a purple cow is that someone else talks about you. Subtitle of the book is transform yourself by being remarkable. What it means to be remarkable is who is going to make a remark about you. And they're not going to talk about you because you really need to make the sale. They're going to talk about you because you're generous, because you see status roles, because you understand affiliation, because you have insight, because you're consultative, because you made their life better. That is what it means to be remarkable.
Yeah, getting others to do that. I appreciate that and hearing that from the, you know, your mouth and it just makes total sense there. Total love it. I'm feeling like, you know, many of us who are listening to this, we feel, you know, we can do that. We can become better. And I just think it's a matter of just the how, how do we become that remarkable that people can talk about us in that way? If you were a BDR Seth and you're find yourself in a role like, you know, brand new and you're going into doing that outreach, what would you do to make sure you have that purple effect? Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense. And I will wrap this up with a really simple, difficult piece of advice. You don't need to learn the tactics yet. First, you need to decide. You need to decide. Decide if you want to be a professional. Decide if you're willing to see your fever. Decide if you're willing to fail along the way. If you're not, I can't help you. And if you are, you will.
Seth, I know people probably could go to many different places and to get access to the book, Amazon and so forth. And that's where I went. But if folks want to get in touch with you and to connect with you, learn more about you, if there's a sales leader on this, want to get connected with you, what's the best way for them to go about doing so?
Well, I'm afraid I can't possibly keep up. So you can't connect with me, but you can connect with my work. There are 7,000 free blog posts at Seth's blog, S E T H S dot B L O G.
Awesome. Well, we'll send them over there and we'll get, put a link to the book in the show notes. So you guys can check out the practice. Seth, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Well, thank you for leading. This work matters and I'm glad you're doing it. It's a pleasure to talk to you.
Anytime.
Hey, that was Seth Godin. I'm glad you enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to go ahead and connect with Seth, you can find his information down in the show notes. But as always, I'm telling you, you have the opportunity to do something that's unique and different. You can go back and do the same old, same old, like everyone else in your industry and not quite get anywhere. But if you want to stand out, I guarantee you're going to see a big difference if you practice some of these things that Seth shared with you. As always, I want you to thrive. I want you to succeed. I want you to stand out. But most importantly, I want you to raise your level of thinking and I want you to go out and do big things. See you on the next one.
The Sales Evangelist Podcast is created by the Sales Evangelist Sales Training Organization. It is produced by TSE Studios. Our podcast production manager is Nancy Paul. Our audio engineer is Jershun Obayal. Our video engineer is DeSahn Kunado. Guest management is done by Jill Vito and Kristy Virtus. Our content writer is Carlisa Galberith. Our graphic designer is Yurvish Savalia. And I'm your host and executive producer, Donald C. Kelly.
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Page updated November 6, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
