Pod Insights Rotten Mango “Gay for the Stay” & “Trains Run on Her”: Inside Mackenzie’s Prison Dating Life About this episode Some of the best advice you’ll ever hear is simple: don’t go to prison. But sometimes, it’s unavoidable. If you do, the Ohio Reformatory for Women in Marysville isn’t what you’d expect, more like a college campus than a prison. Programs, classes, even freedom to move during three daily yard times.
Yard time is where everything happens, fresh air, social life, information. It’s where people start whispering about the show they just saw.
The one about 17-year-old Mackenzie Shirilla.
The same Mackenzie walking the yard, full face of makeup, hair done, curls set, gems in her hair.
That one?
Killed two people.
And now, one former inmate says,
She’s in the bathroom getting trains run on her…
Davion Flanagan Memorial Scholarship Fund
Change the Game for Dom Foundation
Petition · "Dom and Davion's Law" - Victims Before Influencers: Modernize Son of Sam Laws - United States · Change.org
Full show notes available at RottenMangoPodcast.com
Transcript 15,191 words · 3 speakers
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0:44 Speaker 00 So switch your home and auto to Progressive and see if you could save and keep sipping away. Get your quote today at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates and other insurers, not available in all states. Badabing badaboo. Some of the best advice you'll hear in life is sometimes the most simple advice. Don't go to prison. But apparently, not all advice is worth taking. And sometimes, or like all the time, it's completely unavoidable at that point. But if you are to end up in a prison, the Ohio Reformatory for Women in Marysville, Ohio, is probably one of the better options. One reporter who's been inside, she says it's more like a college campus.
1:25 Speaker 00 And instead of housing students, there's dorm rooms with women that are classified by their charges. You've got units, they call them cottages, they don't even call it units. Cottages for the for lifers, they're in there for life. You've got cottages for the people that are coming in and out. They've got a lot of programs in the reformatory that I have honestly not seen being offered at other prisons or even at like your local community college. You can get your GED, yes, but you can also take lessons on how to properly raise your child. You can help train service dogs. One former resident, Kat, she says you actually have a lot of freedom in there. There's a track, you've got a volleyball court, a basketball court, a softball field, you've got a gym, you've got school, a place where you can go to use computers for your kids.
2:10 Speaker 00 Job readiness, you've got cosmetology school, you've got college, GEDs. There's a lot of buildings and you kind of have free rein to kind of go and come as you please. If you're not doing that, you walk the track or you sit in the yard. There's like tables also, or you can watch TV in your bunk, you're on the phone doing video visits.
2:30 Speaker 01 That's crazy, wow.
2:32 Speaker 00 It sounds like a summer camp.
2:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:33 Speaker 00 And the reformatory, they offer three different yard time slots in a singular day. So you've got the first, second and third yard, and this is a lot, like most people, they'll maybe get yard time once a day. And that's if they're really lucky. They have three yard time slots. One's really early in the morning, the second is in the middle of the day, then there's one at the very end of the day. Interestingly, it's not even as bad as PE class in high school because you can't opt out of that. You can technically opt out of yard time in the reformatory. If it's too hot, if it's too cold, or for whatever reason, you just don't want to be outside, you can opt to stay in your room. A lot of people will stay in their rooms because they don't like the weather outside. There's no point in going out because when you come back in, there's no AC in the building, so everybody's sweating.
3:18 Speaker 00 They say it does get really bad in the summers, like you'll stick to your bed in the summertime. But you can buy fans in the commissary. But it's that hot. Now, for some people though, it doesn't matter the weather, they're going out for yard time because yard time is game time. Residents, remember, there will always be a few girls out at yard time who've got full face of makeup on. They've got gems in their hair, each gem is like fifteen dollars, you have to buy it. They have curled hair, you can get a curling iron, they look like they're going to the club, just walking around yard time. It's like walking around Rodeo Drive, just walking, walking. Yard time is also, however, one of the few times throughout the day that inmates can be in the sun.
4:00 Speaker 00 So I get it, right? I mean, get fresh air, it's also hugely psychologically beneficial. Plus, yard time serves as the main flow of information between cottages. This is very likely the place where people start whispering about people they've met inside, who just came into their cottage. Or sometimes they're whispering. worrying about the show that they just saw because there's TVs in the common areas. And there was this show that was playing on there. It's like one of those investigation discovery shows about a true crime case. And they said one episode was detailing how seventeen year old Mackenzie Shirilla drove a car into a building at nearly a hundred miles per hour, killing her boyfriend Dom and their friend Davion, you know, that case, who also happens
4:43 Speaker 00 to be their fellow inmate, the one that's walking around looking like she's going bar hopping with a full face of makeup at yard time every single day. That one killed two people. And now one former inmate says, you know, she's actually in the bathroom getting trains run on her.
5:01 Speaker 01 What?
5:02 Speaker 00 This is everything that has happened since Mackenzie Shirilla was imprisoned. Inmates have come out to talk about her dating life, what she's been doing, and if she's showing any remorse. And this is going to be a full update on some of her released jail calls as well as her new appeal. So with that being said, let's get started.
5:42 Speaker 00 We would like to thank today's sponsors who have made it possible for Rotten Mango to support Change the Game for Dom Foundation and Davion Flanagan's Memorial Scholarship Fund. Both GoFundMes are run by the families of the victims and we're going to include those, plus all the information regarding Dom and Davion's law, which aims to update Ohio's Son of Sam laws in order to prevent violent offenders from profiting off their crimes. It's going to be so pertinent in this episode. You're going to see why they want this to be introduced. All of these are going to be included in our show notes. This episode's partnerships have also made it possible to support Rotten Mango's team of dedicated researchers. We'd also like to thank our listeners for your continued support. As always, full show notes are available at rottenmangopodcast.com. Today's episode involves mentions of illicit drug usage, reckless driving, driving while intoxicated, self-exit, and possible domestic
6:24 Speaker 00 violence and trafficking, as well as heavy discussions of being in prison, as well as things that could occur. In various prisons throughout the country. We did pull the FOIA for this case and we went through tens of thousands of pages of text messages, detective incident reports, autopsy reports. We also received like 90 jail phone calls that, I mean, it was like 20 hours collectively. There's just a lot going on, so we're gonna try to break it down. This is actually part four of the five-part series. So in part one, we went over the crash itself and generally what people believe happened that night. In part two, we break down the Netflix documentary as well as we interviewed Rosie and Bubba and asked them a lot of questions that social media had.
7:06 Speaker 00 In part three, we broke down the relationship as well as covering internet rumors, conspiracy theories that people have about Mackenzie's relationship with her parents and whether or not people believe that it played a role in all of this. In this part, we're gonna cover the jail calls, the alleged prison girlfriends, the trial, the appeal. And in part five, we're gonna break down the entire 31,000-page document of text messages between Mackenzie and Dom. So with that being said, let's get into it. I went down the rabbit hole of figuring out whether or not women's prisons really is similar to Orange is the New Black TV show, because that is what everyone kept saying, like, is it similar? Some people on Reddit say it is, except the smell. Quote, "It was an odd combo of BO, hot dog grease, and really strong cleaning chemicals.
7:51 Speaker 00 Beyond the smell, the best way to describe it would be like living in a subway station in that everything has that grimy feeling of having been touched by thousands of people." One person says, "It's kinda like that, plus lots of hooking up in the bathroom stalls and showers." I mean, something really weird was every few days they would pass around electric shavers. There was one for each bunk and there would be a line of girls trying to use these old shavers to dry shave their legs and pubes in the bathroom. Some of them would flip them and use the non-cutting side as a pleasure object on other people. It was so fucking gross, I never even considered shaving. Another person on the internet says, "The food is the worst part." Yeah. One inmate says that they were cleaning the meat grinder in the kitchen because that was their job.
8:36 Speaker 00 End quote. As they opened it, they found about a million maggots inside. Basically, it hadn't been cleaned a lot longer than people thought and the whole prison had been eating maggot meat, so. And there's just lots of reports that there's actually a lot of intimacy going on in women's prisons. I'm not sure exactly the word to be used here, whether it be intimacy or not, but one netizen says that one of the very first things that they learned was how to make a prison rose toy that is stationary. So it doesn't pulsate, but it it's a pleasure object. You get used toilet paper rolls, like the empty part, the little cardboard roll at the end. Saran wrap, napkins and rubber bands and you can make a pleasure object.
9:21 Speaker 00 They said it was oddly, you know, more intimate than they expected with quote gay for the stay being a widely used term. Yeah. Others know, they say that it's not as dangerous per se as men's units where the prison hierarchy is gang and race based. Whereas the women units are, well, one netizen writes, ton of drama and sex. The drama in the men's unit is usually at a zero or a 10. Nothing ever in the middle. The women's unit is a constant six, always. They say, quote, the bitches just walked around like they were in a high school dorm. Kat, the former resident of Ohio Reformatory says, women's prison is like a popularity thing. So it really like is being like in high school, you know?
10:05 Speaker 00 And Mackenzie Chavilla was kind of popular in prison because she had to be there for a long time.
10:09 Speaker 01 She is popular?
10:11 Speaker 00 Yeah. Kat says, so people who are serving life sentences have an unspoken level of respect. People are just coming in and getting out. We're like renting an Airbnb and they're the homeowners, like landlords, you know what I mean? But even then Kat says that Ohio Reformatory, at least when she was there, there were still people who stood out, like they just did so much. And Mackenzie was that. Mackenzie had this one best friend in prison and Kat says the two of them would walk around the yard full glam. And Kat is like, I am what I Consider a girly girl. I love makeup. I love all that stuff. When I was in prison, I think I did my makeup like twice. And that was for my release photo ID. And then we had some sort of like festivals, some sort of sunflower festival came into prison.
10:55 Speaker 00 And I was like, okay, like, we'll do it for then. But every single day, no, like, that was the last thing on my mind.
11:01 Speaker 01 So they have make regular makeup?
11:03 Speaker 00 Yeah.
11:04 Speaker 01 Yeah. Oh, okay.
11:05 Speaker 00 Another former resident Cheyenne says, I would see girls do makeup, just not to the extent that Kenzie took it. They'd maybe do a little eyeshadow, maybe a little lip liner or something like that. Kenzie was like full face done, going to the club, like makeup, walking around. Every time she hit the yard, she's not coming out with her hair done. She woke up at six in the morning to get started. Getting her hair ready, makeup ready and stuff like that. I remember she told me she always wanted me to meet her at first yard and it was like seven or eight in the morning. Is when the yard starts. She's like, yeah, I'm gonna be up by six doing all of this. Cheyenne has since come out on TikTok to talk about all of this and she even posted a picture stating, I'm gonna show you guys what she looks like most of the time.
11:46 Speaker 00 So this is what I mean by that. And she inserts a picture of Mackenzie in prison.
11:52 Speaker 01 Like, what kind of photo?
11:54 Speaker 00 A selfie, a selfie of Mackenzie Shirilla in prison.
11:57 Speaker 01 By herself?
11:57 Speaker 00 Yes. Now, people are like, oh, my God, did she stick a phone up her butt? Like, did she pay a CO, like a correctional officer, to get this phone? They have these tablets that they do video calls on and you can actually send pictures to your loved ones. So you can take pictures, like, yeah.
12:14 Speaker 01 Oh, my God, that's crazy.
12:17 Speaker 00 And so Cheyenne is like, I'm gonna show you what she looks like. And the picture for my audio listeners is a picture of Mackenzie. One that has been widely circulating now and she's just posing with the camera. And I will say that she has more makeup on than I think I have on right now. So it's definitely, and that's not to be like, oh, I don't even wear makeup. No, I wear a lot of makeup. Like, she's wearing a lot of makeup. It's definitely not just, let me throw on some eyebrows and curl my lashes and call it a day. This is the type of makeup that I would do if I'm going to like a birthday dinner. This is not just, I gotta go to the grocery store and run some errands.
12:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
12:51 Speaker 00 Kat says, she walked around like she knew she was being seen, like she knew she was getting attention, like she was that girl. She would wear makeup like full, full face, full everything, every single day. Cheyenne says, yeah, she also always had her hair done, eyebrows, like everything. Wake up early as hell to do all this. And then she said that sometimes she would read and probably do some laundry. In prison, or at least this prison, you can also buy exclusive clothing. And apparently a Nike hoodie could go for like three, four hundred dollars because it's prison. They're not gonna make it affordable. And Cheyenne says that Mackenzie had everything she wanted. A TV, gems for her hair, an exclusive pink shirt, painted on like shorts.
13:31 Speaker 00 Like four to five pairs of shoes, jewelry, a flat iron, a curling iron for her, a waist trainer. Cheyenne says, you pay fifteen dollars each for one of those gems in her hair? And in the picture that Cheyenne, it's literally like when you're five years old and you throw a giant bedazzled gem. Okay, you can actually, like, it's actually cute as an adult too, but it's just not worth fifteen dollars apiece.
13:57 Speaker 01 And she has a lot of those?
13:58 Speaker 00 She's in that picture, she has like four.
14:00 Speaker 01 That is so, what?
14:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
14:02 Speaker 01 And these are things they sell in the prison?
14:04 Speaker 00 I think some of them you have to get from other cottages. Like for example, the waist trainer, Cheyenne is like, I don't know how she got the fucking waist trainer. But Cheyenne speculates that it's from the pregnancy cottage. So they have a cottage for all the pregnant women. And they might give you waist trainers or you can maybe purchase them. And so she's thinking because it's from the pregnancy cottage, it's probably gonna cost Mackenzie like a hundred and fifty dollars for a very basic waist trainer.
14:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so basically the parents are funding her spendings, right?
14:34 Speaker 00 Yes.
14:34 Speaker 01 Wow.
14:35 Speaker 00 She's wearing all of that. And according to Cheyenne, Mackenzie is doing line dancing every night. She's gonna go learn dancing every night. And she's just in one of the best cottages of the facility. Cheyenne says, Mackenzie is in the Wheeler Cottage. Wheeler has like flat screens. This is what Cheyenne is saying, actual couches, rooms that you can close your door. So Kat is like, other cottages, it's just like bunks out in the open.
14:59 Speaker 01 Yeah.
15:00 Speaker 00 Wheeler, it's like a dorm. You can close the door to your room.
15:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. But how did she end up there? Is it just by luck, by chance?
15:07 Speaker 00 Usually it's for the, for lifers.
15:09 Speaker 01 Oh, okay.
15:10 Speaker 00 Yeah. Kat says the widely circulating comparison online about Mackenzie is pretty accurate. Kat says, I do say that she wanted to be like Regina George when I was in there. I mean, just the way she did her makeup, the way she, I mean, it was like she was going to a club. Or she thought she was gonna be famous or photographed. She would wear her clothes all turtled so that they would be form fitting. And she would make fun of people who had less than she did because she was so well taken care of inside of prison. Like she is taken care of, mainly by her mom. Kat says Natalie, Mackenzie's mom, is making her like a, it's like a cupcake camp for her. It's like a summer camp for Mackenzie. Yeah, they said that Mackenzie would go behind people who are bigger in size than her
15:53 Speaker 00 and like mock them about their size by doing hand gestures like this behind them in the yard. But one of the more enlightening things to come out of all of this is stories of Mackenzie in prison that she has, quote, gone gay for this day and has been having trains run on her in the bathroom. That's the exact verbiage that people have been using. I'm actually not even entirely sure what that means. I mean, I am to some degree familiar with what it means to have a train run on somebody, but I'm not sure in this context, in the prison context. Cheyenne says, there's just so much dating drama inside of Ohio Reformatory. She says, girls always have a new girlfriend in there like every other day. Somebody with somebody's ex every day. It's just how it goes down in there.
16:37 Speaker 00 You don't have anything to do in there, so you just fill your time with anything, honestly. Which is kind of how Cheyenne starts dating Mackenzie. Okay, or at least that's what Cheyenne says. Now, to fully understand this, let me break it down. According to internet rumors and former inmates who have come out to talk about knowing Mackenzie in prison, which, you know, side note, many of them actually have been coming out before the Netflix documentary to share their story. So it doesn't seem like these people are just coming out now because the case has gone viral again and wanting to get TikTok famous. They've been talking about it for a while.
17:08 Speaker 01 Mackenzie.
17:09 Speaker 00 Yeah. So to break it down, according to Cheyenne, Mackenzie has this best, best friend in prison named Jasmine. These are the two that walk the yard, gems in their hair, full makeup, her and Jasmine, okay? Jasmine. It did a lot for Mackenzie, apparently. Mackenzie was allegedly making hooch alcohol in prison and a CO came in, found it. Jasmine took the fall because Mackenzie had an appeal coming up, so Jasmine wanted to take the fall for it. Anyway, Mackenzie is besties with Jasmine. Jasmine is dating another inmate by the name of Juice, who has also come out and has started making videos about this. So Jasmine and Juice are dating and Juice is really close friends with Cheyenne.
17:50 Speaker 00 And near the end of Cheyenne's day, Juice comes up to her and is like, hey, Mackenzie thought you were cute since you first popped out. She already has like a little nickname for you. She calls you fro. So Cheyenne was like, when I was in prison, I had this huge fro because you know, there's not like, you can't really get your hair done, right? And Cheyenne's like, I'm like, alright, bet. And she was like, well, Mackenzie said she wanted you to meet her on the next yard. So Juice is like, Cheyenne, Mackenzie thinks you're cute, wants to meet you at the yard. She's got a nickname for you. She calls you fro. Cheyenne says she never really felt inclined to talk to Mackenzie ever because she just gives off full Regina George vibes, just mean girl radiating off of her. But now she's intrigued. She, she's also,
18:31 Speaker 00 she admits bored out of her freaking mind, just like losing her mind going bonkers in there. Okay? So this is like the most exciting thing that could happen. She's like, I go outside, hit the yard. I see her and Jasmine immediately walking because they're always out there. You can always spot them. And I walked up to her to be like, hey, what's up? And she's like, what's up? And I kid you not, the first thing she says to me is, you're top three on my hottest people on the farm list. I guess she calls it the farm. Apparently they hit it off, okay? Cheyenne is asking Mackenzie if they want to grab dinner, which sounds like, I mean, clearly it's rough in there. Like Cheyenne and Kat have come out to say like, it does get rough in there. Like they're making it sound like a walk in the park, but it's really depressing. It's really rough. Like you lose sense of agency. I get it.
19:16 Speaker 00 But also like, it's not as rough as one might imagine. Like I watched Prison Break and like, do you want to grab dinner? Doesn't really resonate with Prison Break. You get what I'm saying? Do I think prisons need to be tougher? No, I'm actually for prison reform. You, anyway, Mackenzie is Looking at Cheyenne like she's crazy. She says, no, I don't eat the prison food. I will never eat the prison food. Cheyenne's like, I was like, oh, okay. She's like, I cook every single day. Every single day I cook.
19:45 Speaker 01 Mackenzie cooks?
19:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, Cheyenne says, yeah, exactly. Cheyenne's like thinking about it and she's going through it and she's like, that's actually a lot of money. Okay, so Cheyenne's breaking it down and she says, quote, because like, okay, you know, nothing's cheap in prison. We have to buy every single thing to make a meal. So like, if you wanna buy a pizza, like you wanna make a pizza, you gotta buy the wraps to make the crust. Cause they don't have dough, you know, you gotta buy like a, I don't know if it's like a wrap and then they just put some marinara. You gotta get the pepperonis, you gotta buy the pizza sauce, you gotta buy the cheese, you gotta buy something to shred your cheese. So cooking every single day with your commissary would be a lot because you only get a certain amount of commissary in there for like a certain period of time. So cooking every day, you'd probably run out within like three to four days. So I'm like, oh.
20:28 Speaker 00 And then there's only like a few microwaves in there. So you have to cook all that in a microwave. Like it's a lot. You have to get a microwave spot. So you gotta wait in line for a spot at the microwave. Which, you know, is like two hundred girls in one cottage and there's only two microwaves. So you have to get a spot every single day. Go out there, prep for that spot, be ready for your spot. Because if you run out of time using that microwave, you're out of the microwave. You can't finish your food. They're not gonna say, oh, one more minute. I need a microwave for one more minute. You really have to be prepared for it. So it really is a lot. Anyway, the two of them start talking, flirting, okay? And when they would hang out, Cheyenne says she noticed a few things about Mackenzie that she's now sharing. One is that Mackenzie kind of seemed amused at the idea that some people call her Shirilla the killer.
21:11 Speaker 01 So, okay, back to your intro. You're saying that everyone saw this documentary in the prison?
21:18 Speaker 00 They saw an ID investigation discovery episode.
21:23 Speaker 00 So they say it's kind of interesting because when you first meet someone in prison, you ask them for their charges, right? And then they like, and do I think this happens? Absolutely. I think the criminal justice system in America is completely forked. But everyone in prison is innocent, you know, most of the time, right? Everyone is innocent. And so what happens, Shan was explaining that you learn about someone's charges and then if you wanna befriend them, you go and you call your mom and you're like, you gotta Google this person. And see if their charges match up to what's happening, right? So people know that, people probably have a vague idea of Mackenzie Shirilla's crimes and they probably hear her side of the story of like, oh my god, it was Potts, whatever she says. And then they see Investigation Discovery on the show and they're like, wait.
22:09 Speaker 01 That's Shirilla the Killer.
22:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, mhm, yeah.
22:13 Speaker 01 Interesting.
22:13 Speaker 00 And Mackenzie doesn't hate the nickname. Mackenzie apparently told Shan, just like deadpan, not even offended, yeah, people call me Shirilla the Killer. Just like, what? And it seems like Mackenzie really, really believes she's going home sooner rather than later because Shan says, she told me how she was working on an appeal, she's going home, she's going to be home and how me and her, we're gonna talk when we get home, we're gonna continue this outside.
22:38 Speaker 01 So she's getting life without parole with?
22:41 Speaker 00 Uh, Shan or Mackenzie?
22:42 Speaker 01 Mackenzie.
22:43 Speaker 00 Fifteen years. She's eligible for parole in fifteen years, but most likely, it's going to be highly, highly unlikely that she's gonna get parole in fifteen years.
22:53 Speaker 01 She, she's not?
22:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't think she's going to.
22:56 Speaker 01 Okay, based on?
22:58 Speaker 00 Based on like typically if you're in fifteen to life, it's really hard to get parole, especially for killing people. And then um, it seems from what I know and from what I've heard, that Dom and Davion's family members are gonna be there at every single parole hearing and they will take that into account. Also on top of that, she has like thirty-six misconduct records in prison right now. And that also gets factored into parole.
23:23 Speaker 01 Thirty-six?
23:24 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:24 Speaker 01 Well, like, are, are we, are you gonna talk about?
23:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, but most of it is like not being in her room, like being in the wrong rooms, wrong areas, right? We, cuz Shan kind of insinuates that's what happens when you're dating people. And then also just having contraband and most of the contraband is like altered clothing, shoes that she's not supposed to have. Yeah.
23:45 Speaker 01 Fascinating, wow.
23:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
23:48 Speaker 01 Thirty-six is pretty wild.
23:49 Speaker 00 That's a lot.
23:50 Speaker 01 She's been there for how many years? That's like one a month.
23:53 Speaker 00 Yeah.
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26:36 Speaker 00 Cheyenne says in a tik tok and then she was showing me her scars and she wanted me to touch them and I kid you all not no bull crap when I touch them a chill literally ran through my body like my hair stood up back of my neck arms everything is just like I don't know something felt weird and off so I kind of like pull pulled my hand back a little bit and she's like what what's wrong you don't think I'm pretty with all my scars is it nasty to you do I look disgusting I'm like no it's just kind of like chilling and shocking seeing all of this and then Mackenzie looked me dead in the eye y'all dead in my eyes and said thank god nothing happened to my face because I still want to be a model when I get out of here and another interesting fact with
27:15 Speaker 00 this is juice remember juice Cheyenne's friend dating Jasmine juice says in a tik tok Mackenzie's mom literally still goes out and buys everything and anything Kenzie would want so that when she gets out one day she'll come home to a bunch of stuff that she wants yeah apparently her mom goes out and buys stuff and like puts it in her room
27:34 Speaker 01 this is unbelievable
27:36 Speaker 00 and this seems to be a very consistent thing people have been saying that Mackenzie acts like she's getting out soon cat says she walks around like she's gonna get out soon she had no worries I'm sorry like if I had a life sentence girl I'm stressed Mackenzie nope couldn't tell walked around with her head held high would cut her little crop tops would walk around with hickies on her neck because that's just what girls do they get in there and go gay for the stay whatever she's living in a fantasy world still striving to be that girl in prison that got her to be in the position in the first place like influencer all that but like baby girl those days are gone and so I told you you know she walked around like she was getting out she did not walk around remorseful she walked Like she was still in the free world or still in high school. She was a mean girl.
28:21 Speaker 00 You could see she looked down on other people, like laughed at other people, would talk about other people. Which at the end of the day, no one really in there gave a fuck because we're looking at her like you're laughing and looking down at people. But you're gonna be in here for the rest of your life and we're getting out and going home. Kat further alleges she did not care. She's currently getting trains run on her in prison right now and that's just the cold hard facts. The girl that I saw didn't look sad, didn't look depressed, was very almost like I said, happy go lucky, just like bopping around, just happy. Didn't even seem like she realized she was sitting in prison. But she is sitting in prison. She is, which is exactly why we have so many jail calls. At the beginning of each call, it says in an automated tone.
29:03 Speaker 00 This call is not private. It will be recorded and may be monitored. If you believe this should be a private call, please hang up and follow facility instructions to register this number as a private number to accept charges. And thank you for using Securus. You may start the conversation now. Also, you can't just like get private phone calls. Typically, that's reserved for attorney client privilege. So it's not like, oh, I just feel like this should be private. No, it's not going to be. There's a lot of normal conversations that you would expect from someone in jail. Mackenzie is telling her mom all the things she's been doing. She's been making oatmeal in her room. She says she's reading all the Harry Potter books and all she does is eat. There's not really much else to do. Her literary review of the first book in the Harry Potter series is quote, "good as fuck."
29:48 Speaker 00 She says, quote, "And it's crazy because I remember being like, damn, these Harry Potter books, big as fuck. Who the fuck reads them? Now I'm reading them."
29:58 Speaker 01 That's crazy that they have like these books to read.
30:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah. Oh, and her hair is getting softer. She says it smells good now. She says the showers are so foul and she had this moment, she said, where she dropped the soap. She says to her mom, quote, "I dropped the soap in the shower." And I was like, oh no. It's a one person shower. It's only one person, you know, but I still got scared. I was like, oh no, I dropped the soap and I picked it up real quick and I looked around. And they're like giggling. They start talking about how people are so weird about being naked here in the US, but in Italy, it's fine, which makes Mackenzie announce to her mom that she wants to live in Italy. Yeah.
30:38 Speaker 01 Okay.
30:39 Speaker 00 Okay.
30:39 Speaker 01 And what the mom says?
30:40 Speaker 00 Mom is like, yeah. And it's like, when? I mean, I wanna live in Italy. What do you mean? In another call, Mackenzie says she doesn't wanna shower because quote, because I'm cute and I'm little and I don't want them to see me. Which somehow segues to Natalie asking about Mackenzie's butt and Mackenzie informs her, oh my god, they're going away. I don't know what's going away, but she does say quote, but I have a pimple right on my bone, my butt bone. So just like lots of very casual conversations. In another call, she's talking about how long her hair is getting. She says, my hair is so long, I could braid it if I want to.
31:19 Speaker 00 Natalie is just like, oh, you should braid it. This is Natalie's tone for everything. Oh, yeah, you should braid it. Oh, yeah, you should eat. Oh, that's good. Yeah, you should braid it. And Mackenzie's like, I'm not talking about my hair on my head. I'm talking about my legs and my coochie and my armpits, actually. But I'm mainly talking about my legs. And it's so like weird. I mean, even if that is what's happening, I just can't imagine telling my mom.
31:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:42 Speaker 00 That my hair down there is getting so long, I could braid it. It's an odd conversation. In another call, she mentions how she's scared to shower because, yeah, this really is Orange is the New Black. I'm like the prettiest person here. I feel bad even saying that, but I'm just scared. There is a lot of moments, however, in these calls where it just feels like Mackenzie and Natalie and a lot of these conversations, most of them are with Natalie. It feels like they're out of touch with reality and what the, they can't grasp what the reality of their situation is. There's one moment where Mackenzie and her mom are talking about a friend of Mackenzie's and Mackenzie says, oh, my god, why would she go to jail again? What is wrong with her? She's bad as fuck, like badass little kid.
32:24 Speaker 00 Mackenzie says, she needs me. She needs me as a friend. I'll keep her out of jail. And the mom is agreeing with her. She's like, yep. What is happening? This is a recorded phone call from jail. How can you keep her out of jail? You're on trial for murder.
32:40 Speaker 00 She says she wants to start a business when she gets out and says, I just hope my light isn't taken from me. She also talks about how someone in jail is allergic to lash glue, just like her. And she found this hack of using wig glue. And Mackenzie is like, when I get out and I go home and I do my own lashes, I'm gonna use wig glue. She has a lot of hopes of getting out. She says to a friend, yeah, when I go home, I think I'm gonna get a job, which like, oh, okay. Probably should. Yeah, when I'm home, I'll either be like a social media manager, or I'm gonna be like a life coach, or I'm gonna keep going to school to be a nutritionist. And I want to help people eat healthy. Yeah, when I get out of here, I'm going back to eating
33:21 Speaker 00 healthy, though. I don't know if Mackenzie knows much about eating healthy. In one phone call, her mom is making a smoothie with baby spinach. And Mackenzie says, well, it's baby spinach. It's bad for you. Wait, why? Because it's baby. What the fuck is baby spinach? Natalie is like, it's like young, tiny spinach. Yes, it's genetically modified. But it it's organic, which side note, this is not true. Baby spinach is not genetically modified. But Mackenzie continues arguing, organic doesn't always mean good, though. Natalie's mom starts reading the package and she, because you know, baby spinach often comes in like those plastic bags. And she's like, it says organic, it says non GMO. And Mackenzie's like, I don't believe that. That's a lie. In another phone call with her mom,
34:06 Speaker 00 she says, when I go home, this is my plan. So first, obviously staying with you guys as long as possible. Well, I'll see with you guys. I'm gonna start saving money. And I'm gonna try and move out of Strongsville. And I want to move somewhere with a lot of land. And I'm gonna like move into a little house, but I'm gonna make it real nice. It's gonna be super cute. I don't want a big house. I want a little house that's nice on the inside. So I can have a lot of nice things. But I don't want a big ass house. She says, do you know what I kind of want to do when I go home? I want to do a DNA test. But then I don't want the government to have my DNA.
34:37 Speaker 00 Girl, the government has your freedom. I think you kind of have to eat the frog on this one. Like you've got bigger fish to fry. Your house is on fire and you're talking about saving the curtains. Nevertheless, she continues, I don't want the government to have my DNA because they can do whatever they want with it. And I don't want to be like on a list or some shit. I mean, they can have my fingerprints. I don't give a fuck how my fingerprints does nothing. I don't know. You are on a list. You're on a pretty detailed list of incarcerated individuals. Like, I'm just so lost at the logic. The government seems very familiar with Mackenzie, even if we're just judging by the FOIA file. The government gave me extensive information about you. I think they know who you are. I think they know what you're doing. I think
35:18 Speaker 00 they know where you are, what you eat, what you read. They know to some degree what you're even talking about on the phone. And while I do agree the government is not to be trusted with their increasing oversight on their citizens, you're literally incarcerated. I don't know why this logic annoys me so much. In one jail call, this is while Mackenzie is on trial for murder. So like the trial is happening and she's having these phone calls. And Mackenzie is giggling to her mom about a message that one of her friends sent. Because so Mackenzie's trial was not livestreamed. It was a bench trial. It lasted about approximately eight days. And there were parts of it that were recorded, but it was not like fully livestreamed from start to finish. And she's reading the message. And she says, I'm dead as fuck. Kendra said, also, bro, your ass has gotten so big, LMAO. I watched it on livestream. And when you walked in, I was like,
36:03 Speaker 00 damn. Jay said the same thing about you and you look really good. Natalie is like, everybody's saying you got a bump in little booty now. Everybody.
36:12 Speaker 01 Oh my god.
36:13 Speaker 00 Later, Mackenzie tells a friend on the phone, I do work out and my butt got fat as fuck. I don't even know how to, I can't even tell you. Everyone always tell me my butt fat as fuck. And my butt was cute and little before, but now it's fat and cute. In another conversation, Natalie mentions, there's going to be a podcast about this case tonight on somebody's, you know, thing. Kenzie, it's insane. Mackenzie is like, what do you mean? It's gonna be on what? Somebody's going to be talking about it on their podcast. Everybody's just looking for their five minutes of fame. How many likes can they get? You know?
36:46 Speaker 00 Natalie says, I think you know why this is so popular is because it's a mystery. Oh, but it's not, but you know what I mean. Natalie keeps encouraging Mackenzie, write your book, start writing your book. You start writing your book, okay? In that same exact conversation, Mackenzie asks her mom, how do you spell eventually? And her mom stops halfway, she's like E V E. And then she's like, hold on, I gotta type it out.
37:15 Speaker 00 Maybe neither of them should ever write books, maybe they should read a book first. But it appears if not books, maybe modeling, Mackenzie says, I have this feeling that something's gonna happen. With all these people reaching out, so she's getting a lot of weird guys reaching out and producers reaching out. Producers probably trying to get her for a documentary. And then guys probably lying, saying they're producers just to get in contact with her. But there are a lot of people who reach out to inmates that they deem pretty. Creepy guys. But she is like, this must mean something. And she's like, remember that one guy who got arrested for murder? And you know, he became like a model? Yeah, because he was just like, everyone was loving his mugshot. So she thinks something's gonna happen.
37:59 Speaker 00 And Natalie is like, yeah, and these men, you know, these people are paying money to talk to you. Cause you have to buy stamps to send letters. And Mackenzie says, as they should.
38:10 Speaker 01 What is happening?
38:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:13 Speaker 01 What the fuck is happening?
38:15 Speaker 00 But Natalie, yeah, no, I was losing my mind. There were so many times he was like, are you okay babe?
38:20 Speaker 01 The mom and the Mackenzie both are kicking over.
38:23 Speaker 00 Yes.
38:23 Speaker 01 Like, what is happening?
38:25 Speaker 00 Hypothetical imaginary scenarios that will never happen and they're kicking over it and it's like.
38:30 Speaker 01 And then giving the context of what's going on, this is not real.
38:34 Speaker 00 I feel like even if they weren't not, if she was not on trial for murder and she's sitting at home saying like, I just have a good feeling I'm gonna be a model. As a mother, you would still be like, you have to be careful. There's a lot of scams out there and like, maybe you should have a backup plan because you know, the chances of becoming a model are very slim.
38:48 Speaker 01 And then for the mom to say, no, these men are paying money to talk to you. What?
38:52 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's not really like the best thing in the world either.
38:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:58 Speaker 00 Yeah. But Natalie keeps encouraging Mackenzie to write her book cuz quote, "You start writing your book, nobody can twist or use things, your feelings, you know, that you say in a weird way to fit their gross narrative kind of thing." I'm serious, I'm very serious, this is going to be a good one. In another call, Mackenzie is ranting, "Yeah, that shit is just irritating as fuck." "They're acting like I killed eighty-five people, I didn't kill nobody." And while all this is happening, Natalie encourages her, "Save the world." She says to Mackenzie, "While you're there, go to school, right? Do what you gotta do." And you know, "Maybe you should go into freaking law school and fix the system because what the fuck is this?"
39:41 Speaker 00 Mackenzie says, "I don't wanna do math and stuff like that, though." "I don't know if that's what's involved with." "I would, but I don't know if I wanna take the time to do it because it's like a lot of work." "Yeah, but you have time, right? And you are an amazing arguer, you know what I mean? Because, you know, you're based on facts and you tell people what it is and you don't stop." "People need that." "Think of how you defend people that have been wronged, Kenzie, they need you." But one particular jail call that has been going viral is of Natalie telling Mackenzie, "It's on the Today Show, girl, I'm telling you, they're about to get ready for the biggest plot twist of the century, right? What? What did they say about me?
40:21 Speaker 00 No, no, it's not on the TV, it's just online and they're just reposting a story, but that's okay, that's okay, right? That's alright, plot twist, right? That's okay, write your book, start writing your book, you hear what I'm saying?"
40:33 Speaker 01 What plot twist?
40:34 Speaker 00 That she is not guilty or whatever, right?
40:38 Speaker 01 Oh.
40:38 Speaker 00 Yeah. And um, so she's like, "So wait, it's all over the world now? The Today Show is like, national news." Mackenzie's like getting hyped. Okay. I gotta tell you one more thing. What? It was published in England! What? Yes! It's world news? I think the Daily Mail just publishes it, like in all their publications, but yeah, the UK.
41:04 Speaker 01 Wait, the mom is so excited right now?
41:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
41:06 Speaker 01 Like so excited?
41:07 Speaker 00 Yeah.
41:09 Speaker 01 Mackenzie's case is international news.
41:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
41:12 Speaker 01 And she's so excited.
41:13 Speaker 00 They're giggling.
41:14 Speaker 01 They're like, "Wow."
41:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
41:15 Speaker 01 Um, but, we are famous.
41:17 Speaker 00 Yeah. And Mackenzie's like, "It's on the Daily Mail? In UK?" Mackenzie's like, "Maybe Kim Kardashian will reach out herself." That's what I'm saying. I'm hoping, you know, I'm hoping we're getting there. So I was gonna do this anyway. So this is great. And they can just reach out to us. Mm hmm. Craziness, baby girl. Mackenzie then relays this information to a friend. Okay, she's relaying the good news. My mom is like, well, maybe Kim Kardashian seen it. And I'm like, I hope. And the friend is like, yeah, maybe Kim will now that it's all over. I mean, like, I mean, that's the only thing that might be good about the whole media thing. Maybe Kim will see it.
41:56 Speaker 00 So I ha- this is an undated jail call, but I have an inkling it feels like it could be around the Netflix time. Because they do talk about this being in the news during the trial and very early on in this case. And Mackenzie was very stressed. She didn't like it being on the news. And then with Natalie even saying like, this is what I was going to do anyway, and maybe Kim Kardashian will reach out. It seems like with Netflix, their whole intention was like, we're gonna get some sort of appeal. We're gonna get people riled up for injustice like. I think that's how they saw it themselves. I don't know for sure, but that's the feeling that I get. And so maybe they think the news, the attention is great because now people will finally see the injustice and oh my gosh, the crime of putting her in jail.
42:41 Speaker 00 Prison. Yeah. And so the friend says, I mean, that's the only thing that might be good about the whole media thing. Maybe Kim will see it. So it doesn't, it doesn't sound like it was around the same timeframe as the trial when they are talking about these media calls and they don't like it. So that's, but I don't know it's undated, right? But Mackenzie, yes.
43:01 Speaker 01 Why are they so excited that Kim's gonna see it?
43:03 Speaker 00 Because Kim likes to fight for people who were wrongly convicted. Like she'll fight for people who are on death row that.
43:11 Speaker 01 You're saying that Kim's gonna repost this and say free Mackenzie?
43:14 Speaker 00 Yeah, and it'll start a little movement and there will be like a change.org and then maybe she will get out, right? And Mackenzie's like, I don't know, I have to figure it out because I'm real nervous and I want Kim Kardashian to be my lawyer. She's a lawyer. Kim Kardashian passed the baby bar, which I don't think is true at all. I don't think she passed the baby bar yet. She has been trying to pass the baby bar. The baby bar is notoriously hard to pass, right? But. She's a lawyer. Also, I don't.
43:39 Speaker 01 Didn't pass.
43:40 Speaker 00 I don't think she did. Yeah. I know she's failed a few times, which is not like shading or shaming someone because the baby bar is that hard.
43:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:48 Speaker 00 Right. But she also has like a completely other career that she's very busy with. So I don't know, right? But she, I don't think she's a lawyer yet.
43:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:55 Speaker 00 She gets innocent people out of jail.
43:58 Speaker 01 Who's saying this?
43:59 Speaker 00 Mackenzie.
43:59 Speaker 01 Okay.
44:00 Speaker 00 And I do want to clarify, I do think that Kim Kardashian advocating for people who are on death row that are innocent of their crimes is probably one of the best things that she's ever done. So this is not me saying like, oh, she's not a lawyer yet. Like, it's actually very difficult to pass the baby bar. But I'm just saying factually, I don't think it's correct. Anyway, the friend is like, yeah, she does all the time. Kim works hard. Like, yes, Miss Kimberly. Like, we're gonna have to get you out.
44:26 Speaker 00 And like, tell her, Mackenzie is saying, and like, tell her, I will buy all her skims. And I only wear skins.
44:38 Speaker 00 You have to throw a dinner party and your life depends on this dinner party. Okay? I tell you, if nobody shows up to your dinner party, you are screwed. And you can either invite Group A or Group B. Group A consists of 12 people, 12 strangers. You don't know them. But just one person has to show up to your dinner party. That's it. Okay? Do you invite Group A with 12 people or Group B? Group B consists of just one person. So you got one shot versus Group A, you have 12 shots. The question almost sounds dumb because it is, and I just be making up questions. But it's very obvious you choose Group A. You invite the 12 strangers and hope that at least just one of them shows up. Now, what if I said I started a rumor?
45:18 Speaker 00 I went in there and I told Group A, the group with 12 strangers, that you never wash your hands before prepping dinner. They start talking to each other before the dinner party. They start phone calling each other. Did you know they don't wash their hands before dinner, like before prepping anything? Then Group B, that singular person, they're professional food tasters. They know they're not the health department, and I don't really start this rumor. I say, whatever, if they wash their hands or not, that's not where you're basing this, your conclusion off of, if you show up or not. Okay, it's weird, but like, what about the next scenario? You invite Group A, but all you can give them is the coordinates to your house. Not a home address, the coordinates. I mean, you still have 12 chances that one person's gonna show up, right? One person is going to go through the hassle of decoding the coordinates.
46:04 Speaker 00 Some might plug them in wrong, but at least like, maybe one will show up, you don't know. But then I tell you, Group B, you know, that one person is a coordinate expert. It's as easy as them to show up to the coordinates as if you wrote the house address with the house number and the street name. They know how to read it easily. Who do you invite? This is like a very overcomplicated way of describing jury and bench trials, okay? A bench trial being, instead of the jury deciding your fate, it's one judge. And there's really only two reasons that people will choose that, and it's like the examples that I just gave. So especially in criminal cases, they like a jury trial. The mentality is, you have to flip one. That's why there's lawyers who specialize in voir dire, just picking a jury. They come in just for picking the jury, and then they leave. They're not trial lawyers.
46:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, you just have to flip one.
46:52 Speaker 00 Just one. That's it. And you gotta flip them hard. You can't just flip them and say like, oh, now I have a little bit of doubt. Like, they have to be able to stand their ground and say, no, like, I have enough reasonable doubt. But you have technically 12 chances at reasonable doubt. Versus with a judge, you have one shot. And a judge is a professional hearer of excuses. They have heard every excuse and every argument in the book. It makes sense to opt for the jury. But from my very limited research, it seems like there's two reasons why people would opt for a bench trial if they have the option. So the first option is a very rare situation of science. This case is overly technical. There's extensive data. The whole narrative is data-based. There's no emotionally compelling narrative.
47:34 Speaker 00 All the facts, the arguments are rooted in complex scientific data. It would be worth considering. Now, this is also like a double-edged sword. Sometimes, the confusing data, you wanna go for a jury trial.
47:47 Speaker 01 Confuse them.
47:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, confuse them and make them believe it's reasonable doubt, but it's not. It's just they don't understand the data. Because we're all laypeople. We don't like, we're not specializing in this.
47:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:57 Speaker 00 Right? But if your innocence is in the data, maybe you do opt for a judge. Because they're technically above average in the smarty pants department. They may be able to decipher the truth in the science a bit better than twelve jurors who don't have much experience in it. So, science, right? The second common reason is the defense is not a factual argument. So like the science is like the coordinates.
48:21 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
48:21 Speaker 00 But the second one is more like the washing the hands argument. The defense is not a factual argument or an emotional argument or a compelling narrative argument. The argument the defense is making is legal. So for example, a man is charged with possession of a firearm by a felon. Everyone agrees he has a criminal history. That's fact. He has this object in his backpack that looks like a gun and it is a gun. But the gun's firing mechanism was permanently removed years ago. And the statute in this jurisdiction defines firearm as something capable of expelling a projectile. So the defense is sure he had it. Sure, he's a felon. Sure is, but it's not a firearm by the letter of the law. It's not a firearm. A judge may be more inclined to see this legal argument versus a jury might argue, does it really matter?
49:06 Speaker 00 It's a gun shaped object. He had it in his possession. He couldn't have been wanting to do anything good with that. Basically a case of I'm not arguing about what happened. I'm arguing about what the law means. Or another reason is like the facts are just revolting and maybe the defendant is also revolting, but the law is on their side. So a hypothetical could be, and this is from Reddit, like someone says, I'll give you a completely hypothetical as an example, right? Let's pretend you represent someone who is found with a hundred terabytes of CCM. And you realize there is an argument that under the case law, the person didn't actually disseminate or create any of it. And you've got yourself in this weird gray area situation. You're probably going to have a better chance convincing a judge to find in that manner.
49:46 Speaker 00 If a jury gets a hold of it, they're going to convict you as soon as the state proves your client was in possession. That's it. The facts are revolting, but maybe the law is on your side. The legal case is. You know, maybe a little weak on the prosecutors. A judge can hold a line for beyond a reasonable doubt where jurors would be so disgusted. Beyond reasonable doubt line would be overridden by their disgust. They're like, I don't care about the law. He had it. Like, that's all that matters to me.
50:12 Speaker 01 Fascinating, okay.
50:13 Speaker 00 Mackenzie Shirilla chooses to have a bench trial where one single judge will decide her fate. It has been argued that maybe she chose a bench trial because the defense was going to argue that the black box data from the car is not enough to judge whether or not Mackenzie had intent. And that maybe it was going to be rooted in the data. Because that's, that's the intent part they could argue. Whereas maybe jurors would see the black box data, it's not like emotionally compelling. They'd rather see the text messages, Instagram posts and what she did after as more evidence. Another argument could be made that the facts are revolting. Her messages with Dom, her behavior before and after the crash, her smoking and driving posts, it's revolting. But maybe the defense believed it still does not prove intent legally. So maybe it's a legal argument of like, yes, she's kind of like not a good person, but like legally, is this intent?
50:58 Speaker 00 However, I do think it should be noted, I think the outcome of the trial was the right outcome. Not that my opinion matters, but I tend to agree with the verdict. I also think the choice on Mackenzie's part to have a bench trial was kind of odd. I don't know if that was the best choice. I've listened also to a ton of lawyers be puzzled at the choice. But it really doesn't matter. Just because you choose the wrong choice doesn't mean there's injustice done to you. Nor does it mean the outcome should be different. It's just more so like, why did you do that?
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54:16 Speaker 00 It's very interesting when you consider the fact that the defense did not bring in a medical expert to testify about Potts and the potential that Mackenzie suffered a Potts-related episode. They only brought in her mom to testify to the judge. Which a defendant's mother's assertions are probably held very low on the scale of credibility, but it's interesting that they didn't bring in a medical expert. It makes you wonder whether A, it was such a bad defense, B, there's no medical expert that would be willing to testify in the way that the defense would consider helpful and they would get eviscerated in the cross-examination by the prosecutors, or C, the defense knew the judge would see through some medical expert bullshit testimony that there's, it's just gonna, it's gonna be dumb. The judge is gonna get peeved and it's not going to make any sense and it's
55:01 Speaker 00 just gonna cost a ton of money, or maybe all of the above. Also, I do think it's interesting that they didn't bring in an expert because we're still talking about it to this day, because they left it open to interpret. They left it open as like a possibility. Now, had they brought in a medical expert and they got eviscerated during cross-examination, that would be completely ruled out. So instead of ruling it out, they've left it open. But then there's this whole argument where people are like, well, did Mackenzie not get a fair trial because she, her defense attorney was so incompetent, they didn't even bring in a medical expert? So it's kind of, you know, it's an argument that goes in circles. Mackenzie states that she doesn't remember anything after the crash
55:44 Speaker 00 and, I mean, they don't bring in a Potts expert, but they also don't bring in an amnesia expert of any sort because people are skeptical that Mackenzie conveniently does not remember anything in the pivotal moments before the crash. A lot of people who have been in car accidents anecdotally say that that is a fact, like is in fact something that does happen to them, but not bringing in an amnesia expert who can testify to that is a very interesting choice. Unless the defense thinks that whatever the expert will testify to, the judge isn't going to buy it. One former resident in the reformatory is asked whether or not they saw Mackenzie show any signs of pots in jail and she says, "Not once. She seemed like a very healthy young girl. I mean, she was constantly in the yard. There were even times where we were in the middle of a heatwave and she was laying out with baby oil, tanning in
56:26 Speaker 00 a hundred degree weather. She was very active, always walking. I never saw her get blood pressure checks, routine emergency. Like, I never saw her go to take any sort of medication. She seemed healthy to me." Yeah.
56:39 Speaker 01 Interesting.
56:39 Speaker 00 And we went through like thirty-one thousand pages of text messages between Mackenzie and Dom and it seems like most of her very strong health concerns came from, it does appear that she had a strong ED and she lost her period at some point and like there's a lot of conversation where Dom is encouraging her to eat and like trying to get her to eat. So I think that they don't really ever talk about pots, ever. But like, maybe they chose the bench trial because they were gonna argue the legal technicality that yes, this happened, the crash was clearly done by Mackenzie, but legally it's not intent because she was passed out. Or for whatever reason. If the bench trial was chosen for the fact that the black box information is so technical that a layperson would not be able to decipher it, which I don't necessarily agree with that, but if that were the case, it still
57:23 Speaker 00 confuses me that defense didn't provide compelling arguments on how that's the case. I think even Karen Reed's black box data was more hotly debated than this case. So I'm just a bit confused on the purpose of the bench trial, or was it chosen because they just thought Mackenzie is just so unlikable that only a judge could put aside her actions before and after the crash and rule solely on what she's charged with? I have no clue. One redditor theorizes, "If the prosecution is able to even get a few of those social media posts of hers admitted, then as a lawyer, I would push for a bench trial. She came across horribly and whether instructed to do so or not, I could absolutely see jurors seeing her relentless self-adulation, performative indifference, 'Rules don't apply to me, I
58:06 Speaker 00 get what I want' attitude and say to themselves, 'Yeah, that seems like the type of girl who would and could do what she did, or what the prosecutors say she did.'" Like another viral case is Michelle Carter. Do you guys remember her? She encouraged her boyfriend to self-exit through text messages. She famously opted for a bench trial because her behavior, oh, she was found guilty. She's found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, but her behavior was so deplorable, like those text messages are gonna be admitted. She's not a likable person by a long shot and the defense argued all these legal technicalities of like, okay, yeah, she did do those things. But technically it's not manslaughter. They argued she wasn't even there. They argued there was no bodily harm inflicted by her.
58:48 Speaker 00 Also, whatever happened to free speech? Like they're arguing all these legal stuff, but it's like, you're a gross person. So they thought the jury would never see past you're a gross person, but I guess the judge didn't either. And also in that case, I agree with the verdict. I actually think it should have been stronger, but the she was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Obviously, these are not even remotely similar cases, but it just does make you wonder that maybe, yeah. Jurors would have found both of these girls not very redeemable. And sure, in hindsight, it might be easy to say, oh, well, maybe Mackenzie was dumb for choosing a bench trial, but who knows? All I know is Mackenzie does seem to piss off a lot of people. Even during the trial, it's very clear Mackenzie and her family know that all her jail calls are being monitored. And typically this is the most sensitive time is during the trial.
59:33 Speaker 00 In preparation for the trial and during the trial, the prosecutors are listening to every little thing that's going on. But Mackenzie still voices her frustration against the prosecution to her mom. She says on a recorded jail line, and that girl prosecutor would be so pretty if she wasn't such a bitch. She is a bitch. I hate her. And the man, the boy prosecutor, I'm like, man, do you have another suit or what? Because you wear the same suit every fucking day. You dirty as fuck. I know that suit stank with that roll in your neck like. His bald dumb ass. I hate him. He's ugly as fuck.
1:00:07 Speaker 00 Why are you doing this right now? For someone who is on trial for murder, Mackenzie is quite opinionated about how people look. She also rants about the detective that testified. I was trying to look at him like, what is he? He's not white. He's so ugly. It almost seems like Natalie is trying to soften the statement. Well, he's definitely ugly on the inside. But Mackenzie brings it up in another conversation. He's not white. What is he? He's ugly as fuck. He built weird as fuck. I'm like, why are you thick at the bottom and small at the top? He's slim thick for a man and it just throws me off. Again, like in the middle of the trial. Keep in mind Natalie and Steve this entire time have been screaming from the hilltops that Mackenzie is not a bully, that she just has a fierce personality.
1:00:50 Speaker 00 But then there's moments on these jail calls where Mackenzie will be talking to her mom and she gets distracted by a new inmate that's coming in and she says, oh my God, another girl just got moved in our pod. She looks slow as fuck. Natalie's like, well, she may just be distraught because they're new. They just got into prison. No, she look and then she says the R word. She's meaner than a wet cat. I always find it interesting when people who have zero sympathy for others expect full sympathy for themselves from every single person around them. She's talking about how she doesn't want to go to court, AKA to her own murder trial. She's like, if one of Davion and Dom's friends, do you guys remember H? I talked about H. He was one of the first students to kind of start his own little investigation. And yes, he did come up with some conspiratorial thoughts about what happened.
1:01:35 Speaker 00 And even the police pointed out some of it was a little off, but he was very passionate about trying to get justice, right? And you have to have some level of respect for that. But he also should, he's the one that responded to Mackenzie on social media when she posted about Dom and then he was like, what about Davion? Mackenzie says, I don't want to go to the courtroom if H is in the courtroom. I don't feel safe with him anywhere near me. I feel like he's going to attack me. Natalie is like, I don't know if there's anything you can do about that. Well, I'm going to refuse to go in the courtroom then. Honey, you can't just don't even look over there. And then he's like hugging Ms. Russo. She's probably the one that told him to come harass me at the grave and follow me that day. There is zero proof of that, by the way. And it's just kind of weird. You're the one on trial for killing two people. I don't know if there are that many people that are scarier than you in the town of Strongsville.
1:02:21 Speaker 00 And I do get that there is some nuance to who is in the room during a murder trial. The defendant usually wants to have family and friends to show up to show the jury or the judge in this case that they have support, that not everybody has turned on them. So it must mean that there is a shot at redemption, right? Mackenzie asks Natalie if Rosie and Bubba can come to the courtroom, which Natalie responds, "Kenzie, I'm not talking about anything on the phone. I already told you, I already told you if they can or can't and why. Try to get as many people to come to my court as possible. So the people that can, can. Some people have to work and if they can't get out of work, they can't come." Mackenzie is upset that Rosie has not shown up to court a single time to support her. And her mom Natalie has to explain to her over the course of one too many jail calls that, quote, "Rosie cannot show up to court because she's on the defense witness list.
1:03:06 Speaker 00 And if the defense were to ever call her, they cannot because she's been there for other parts of the trial. And if there is a sequestration order in place, which there most likely is, judging based off the jail calls, right, then Rosie can't come to court." Which, side note, remember Rosie was like, "I was willing to testify, but I was never called." I think that applied both ways. I'm assuming the prosecution never called her because she's on the defense witness list. And most likely, it would not help the prosecutor's case. Like, she would just be such a risky witness that would provide probably no value to the prosecutors. But it's, it is interesting that it was phrased as more so like, "Oh, if the prosecutor's called me out to come," right? But there is a little bit more to the story. Anyway, the whole thing just does not feel right to Mackenzie. She's not having it. Good old Mackenzie, sharp as a marble.
1:03:51 Speaker 00 She still doesn't like that Rosie hasn't shown up to court. And on top of that, there's this developing issue where Rosie is friends with people who don't like Mackenzie. And this is like really bothering Mackenzie. I deduced this from the fact that Mackenzie brings it up across multiple different jail calls with her mom when they could be talking about literally anything else. One call starts off normally with Mackenzie talking about how she couldn't sleep well the night before because, quote, "Somebody's fucking arguing loud as fuck at 4:00 a.m. and I couldn't go back to sleep. But then I got anxiety because, oh, I forgot to tell you." So Rosie's hanging out with like- Natalie interrupts her. No, I know. No, that's all fixed. I told her not to say anything because it's not confirmed and it's a hundred percent not true. She unfriended them and everything. I don't believe that. I do, because how are you gonna post that shit about me?
1:04:34 Speaker 00 So she's saying that Rosie is hanging out with this girl named Sammy and Sammy has been posting negatively about Mackenzie online and Mackenzie is upset that Rosie is hanging out with someone like Sammy.
1:04:43 Speaker 01 How's she knowing all of this?
1:04:46 Speaker 00 Because another friend will call her.
1:04:47 Speaker 01 Oh.
1:04:48 Speaker 00 And tattle. The other friend that I believe is the other one in the documentary.
1:04:52 Speaker 01 She is too involved over what?
1:04:55 Speaker 00 And I also think it's weird that Natalie's so involved. Natalie is like, how do you know she's with Sammy every day? Because every time I would call Rosie, when I would be, you know, at free phone call day, she would be with Sammy. And if Sammy's gonna post that weird ass shit about me and Rosie's cool with her, I'm not gonna be cool with her. So Natalie is like, I'm gonna reach out to Faith and Faith is going to look into it. Now Faith is the other one in the Netflix documentary and like has been.
1:05:20 Speaker 01 That supports Mackenzie.
1:05:22 Speaker 00 Yeah. And so Natalie is like, Faith's checking into what that was. I don't think they're together anymore. Like, I don't think they're hanging out anymore. Well, Faith told me that they hang out every single day and I believe Faith because I wanna be told stuff like that. She doesn't know that, though. I, I don't know if she knows that or not. She talked to Rosie last night, so let's just wait to see what she says. But that's weird as fuck. What the fuck? Right. How come I don't have this issue with any of the other people who just like support me? I don't know if it's an issue, though, sweetie. It's clearly an issue. I mean, she clearly took down all the pictures of me off her Instagram with her and that's weird as fuck.
1:05:58 Speaker 00 And then she won't put Free Kenzie and shit like that's weird. And now she's hanging out with someone who wants to be like, yup, when they find me guilty of murder. Like, that's just, just wait till you talk to Faith. And I will literally block Rosie's contact on here. I don't know why. I just get weird ass vibes from her. I know, and that's because she means a lot to you. What? She means a lot to you. No, that's not. Faith and Jada and Kendra mean a lot to me, too, and I don't get those vibes from them. So that's not why. That's definitely not why. Mackenzie gets a little upset at her mom saying, but why didn't you tell me is the crazy thing. I don't like that. How would I know? Natalie tells her that she just needs to talk to Faith first before talking to Rosie and not spread unnecessary anxiety or whatever, unless she's sure about it.
1:06:40 Speaker 00 But Mackenzie is still ranting about Sammy, saying, so weird. Imagine posing my face in shit just for clout and shit. Mackenzie's simplicity is admissible. Later in the call, Mackenzie brings it up again, asking, "So what did Rosie say to you about this shit?" "Kenzie, she loves you to death and don't forget she was on your witness list." "I'm aware, that doesn't mean anything." "No, she loves you. I think she feels like she got weird vibes." "I said that to her before and she was like, 'No, no, please tell her I love her so much and the summer is unbearable without her.'" "I think about her every day." But that's all she says every single time. Like, that is so weird to me. I'm just weirded out. I just feel like, "Why did you delete everything off Instagram about me?" "Then ask her, Ken."
1:07:24 Speaker 00 "Why are you hanging out with people that are weird as fuck?" "Ask her, ask her. Just be like, 'I heard you were hanging out with people that are glad I'm in here, is that true?'" "I don't even wanna call her, though, and waste my time." "Don't accuse her, don't accuse her, ask her." "I'm accusing the fuck out of her, I don't give a fuck. I've already told you, my people wouldn't lie." "That's not true, though. Talk to faith first and see what the conversation was, and then ask her." I don't know, I'm just weirded out by her. But nobody likes being accused of things they didn't do, right? If you can't post my face and be like, "Free her." If you can't post and be like, "Free Kenzie, she's fucking innocent." Like, this is crazy shit, like, what the fuck? That's weird. She was there, she did all that. She did not post "Free me."
1:08:08 Speaker 00 And if my friend was in fucking jail, I'd post them every fucking day, being like, "Free them." "Okay, but she did post on your birthday, remember?" "I didn't see anybody else do that, except for Rosie and Nina." Like, you know? So just pause and ask her, "Are you hanging out with Sammy?" "I heard she's glad I'm in here, are you still hanging out with her?" Don't accuse, ask, and she posted on your birthday. There's just weird shit going on, I don't, I don't know. Just keep being strong, keep the faith, and you have to trust in your friends, okay? It appears they figure out what the problem is, but Mackenzie is still confused why Rosie never shows up to court to support her, to which again Natalie reminds her, because we didn't know if she was gonna be a witness, remember? We didn't know, so she couldn't have been there. You can't sit in there if you're a witness.
1:08:52 Speaker 00 In another call Natalie reassures Mackenzie about Rosie and Natalie says that she went through all of Rosie's pages, which is just like weird behavior for a mom, and saw that she's not following Sammy. What are you doing? Tell your child to get a grip. Why are you stalking college kids on Instagram to see who they're following? But it appears this family is just super committed to their faults and limitations because Natalie continues to reassure Mackenzie that she saw that Rosie is not following Sammy. But Mackenzie is like, but see, that makes me nervous because what if she's lying? She's like, Sammy, I have to unfollow you for a little bit, but I'm about to tell you. She would never, Kenzie, you gotta trust. She would never. She's been there for you from the beginning, posting your birthday, showing up for you everywhere. You gotta trust. You gotta let that go. That's so weird to me, though. Okay, this whole thing is so weird to me for a multitude of reasons.
1:09:37 Speaker 00 Why does Mackenzie care so much? Just stop talking to Rosie then. It's not like you have to talk to her. It's not like you guys go to the same school. You're in prison. In fact, it takes more energy and money to talk to her on these collected call lines. Also Natalie, why are you getting involved? Why are you not telling your daughter, get a grip, get a grip? Why are you so adamant that your daughter should be nice to Rosie? That's also weird. Why can't you just tell her, okay, then just don't be friends with her? Damn. Why does she have to see from Rosie's side? Why does she have to trust Rosie? Like, all of this is weird. That's not to say that I'm on anyone's side of the argument. I just think this whole thing is dumb and I'm confused why everyone keeps going. There's another call where Natalie tell, almost cryptically tells Mackenzie, she should never doubt Bubba or Rosie, and Mackenzie wants to know why. She's like, what are they doing?
1:10:21 Speaker 00 I can't really get into it on the phone, but they're amazing. A hundred percent amazing. You should never have doubt in your mind about that one, especially Rosie. Bubba, you should never have doubt in your mind about their, um...
1:10:32 Speaker 01 That's crazy. When was this? We don't know.
1:10:34 Speaker 00 It seems like it was during the trial or soon after. But down in her mind, Mackenzie has, it might be the only thing up there. Okay. In a later phone call, Mackenzie brings it up again and she says, I'm gonna have people watching her. And if as soon as she hangs out with her, she's getting fucking blocked on everything and you need to take her out of the group chat.
1:10:53 Speaker 01 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
1:10:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:10:55 Speaker 01 Bro, what is happening right now?
1:10:57 Speaker 00 And Natalie's like agreeing, like Natalie has a group chat with Mackenzie's friends.
1:11:01 Speaker 01 She's like running a mafia in there or something. Like, I'm gonna have people watching this person. I'm gonna take you out and I'm gonna,
1:11:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:11:08 Speaker 01 I'm, I, they will know, like, what is happening right now?
1:11:12 Speaker 00 I don't even think El Chapo gives a fuck like this.
1:11:14 Speaker 01 What is happening?
1:11:16 Speaker 00 I mean, he probably does, but yeah. Natalie continues, you've got to trust. And there's nobody on her Instagram page. It's just her modeling pictures. Nobody's on there, not even Nina. But it used to be all of us. I just think it's weird. I don't know. I don't like how she just deleted our pictures and she also deleted that YouTube video again. There's nothing anywhere though. You can't read into these things. You have to ask a question. Ask, don't accuse. She deleted the YouTube video. I don't need to ask. And I want you to change my Instagram bio. To what? If they ain't hating you doing something wrong. The fuck? That's what you need to change it to. And then do hashtag free Kenzie. Okay? Don't forget, do it right now because I don't want you to like make it some stupid shit on accident.
1:12:00 Speaker 00 The quote in its entirety is stupid, but okay.
1:12:03 Speaker 01 Did they change it? Oh, wait, her Instagram's gone, right? Okay.
1:12:06 Speaker 00 In another call, Mackenzie tells her mom to put, long live Dom and long live Davion in my bio too. Which I just feel like is a slap in the face to the victims' families. And there's just a lot of concern that she has of whether or not people support her. Mackenzie rants again to Natalie that she has a few friends that have yet to reach out to her in jail. And Natalie is reassuring her that those friends are just quote, weak, you know? That she's just weak and she doesn't have a real good, secure sense of who she is. She's just a follower. I feel like there's more pressing matters to tend to, but I mean, like, what could be more urgent, I guess? Like, the more pressing matters could include how the shirlas believe the judge presiding over Mackenzie's face is corrupt. That's what they keep saying.
1:12:48 Speaker 00 And that is where I leave you with the first half of part four. Stay tuned for the second half because we're gonna go through the rest of the trial. And then you remember, oh, you don't even know, but there will be times where, okay, the victim's family members are giving victim impact statements during the trial. They have jail phone calls right after that court day. And they're saying some crazy things about the victim's family. Stay safe. Let me know your thoughts and I'll see you in the next half. Bye.
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1:14:00 Speaker 00 Twenty years after Natalie Holloway disappeared on a high school graduation trip to Aruba, Natalie's mother Beth is ready to tell the complete story. Taken: Natalie Holloway is a three-part series that follows Beth's relentless pursuit of answers and justice for her daughter and gives a fuller picture of who Natalie was as a person. It's the definitive account of a case that gripped multiple nations and never let go. Watch Taken: Natalie Holloway, November 4, only on Netflix.
Previous Warm Milk, Foot Rubs, and White Claws: ALL The Texts Between Mackenzie & Dad Next "There's Evil Working Against Me, I'm the 3rd Victim" Mackenzie’s Jail Calls Released Page updated October 29, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated