13 Year Old Realizes His Twin Brother Is A Killer In The Middle Of Interrogation

A forensic DNA test usually scans about 20 fixed markers of DNA. It may take a few days but it’s enough to differentiate a suspect from the rest of the world with a near perfect level of certainty. Except for identical twins. It’s not a perfect analogy but think of DNA as a 3 billion letter book. Most people have about 20 chapters that are completely different. For identical twins, their entire book is identical except for about 8 typos. Not 8 different chapters, or sentences, not even 8 different words. 8 letter typos amongst 3 billion letters. The technology to find these is only available at a handful of labs and costs hundreds of thousands, even millions of dollars. Thankfully, identical twin crime is rare. Except for Ohio. A woman who lives alone is raped and murdered in her own home, and the DNA left at the scene traces back to a set of identical twins. Two 13 year old boys are the main suspects but which twin is innocent? And which twin is guilty? Full show notes available at RottenMangoPodcast.com

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:59Speaker 00

  Welcome to part two of the two-part audio podcast that is the Cart Twins case. If you haven't already listened to part one, I highly recommend doing so. We uncovered that a 64-year-old woman by the name of Denise Tenpenny was assayed and murdered in her own home, in her own bed. And the only thing left behind was DNA evidence. That DNA evidence led investigators right across the street, 50 feet away from Denise's home, to two people. Which is weird, because how is DNA evidence viable for two people? Is it two people's DNA? Well, this is where it gets tricky. It leads them straight to two 13-year-old brother, twin brothers, identical twins. So technically, their DNA is identical.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  And the police have decided they think that only one of the twins is involved. They bring both twins, along with their mother, into the police station. They're interrogating them separately, and this is where all hell is going to break loose. So with that being said, let's get started.

• 2:17Speaker 00

  Hunter and Levi's mom, Becca, is in the waiting area of the police station. So she's been brought out from the room where they kept like telling her to eat the raisin canes. They bring her out and the twins dad Kyle has since joined. And they're both just wanting answers. Why can't they get the twins? Why can't the twins come out? Why can't they get the twins a lawyer? What the hell are the investigators talking to them about without them or the lawyers present? When there is a situation where identical twin DNA is involved. The best thing investigators can do is look for evidence that's not DNA related. And they find it under Denise's body. The investigators come out to talk to Becca and Kyle and they tell them it's not that they randomly targeted the twins. It's that quote, I don't know what in the world happened. We're not talking to him anymore.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  I mean, he doesn't want to really talk anymore. I don't know what happened. We have a lot of other evidence too. I'm just trying to figure out what happened. She says, I don't know. They tell her it's not just the DNA. There's some certain things we're going to tell you that we have that are bad. Okay. That watch that we showed you that belongs to one of the twins was under her body. Becca starts freaking out. She starts sobbing, alternating between putting her head in her hands to holding her chest. She's pacing the area. She seems like she can't sit still. She doesn't really even know what to do with this information appears. Eventually she asks, what happens now? He's only 13. Oh my God, oh my God.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  Eventually she's on the floor and she even apologizes to the investigators for being rude earlier. Out of all the suspects and perpetrators' parents, Becca seems like maybe one of the few that really tried her best. If you get the full FOIA file like we did, there is a lot of unredacted information that I didn't include because I don't know how relevant it is. But Hunter talks to investigators of how much their family has gone through. And it does appear that Becca has really tried to shield her sons from anything that could have happened. The fact that she regularly puts them in therapy, encourages them to talk about their feelings. They even found her journal where she writes about how she's trying to parent. And by all accounts, it seems like she genuinely is a good parent.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  The fact that she's been trying to be helpful this entire investigation, the fact that she is apologizing to being rude to the investigators, which in reality, I honestly think that she was still just protecting her children. There's really nothing to apologize for. She never behaved in a way that made it feel like she was enabling her kids or shielding them from consequences or not participating in the investigation. But when she's told it's her son's DNA, his watch, and they found a piece of a green nitro glove at the scene and a box of the same green nitro gloves in his closet. They've also found a pair of bloody LL Bean boots located in his room with visible staining. And now, one of the twin brothers is going to find out that his brother is guilty as well.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  The officers leave Levi's interview room about an hour in to let him finish his food and really like sit with his thoughts. And when they come back in, the first question they ask him is, "Hey, do you think sometimes people do something that they regret that is out of character for themselves? Like, do you think they do something and they kind of get scared and they don't want to talk to or tell anyone about it?" They ask him how his DNA ended up at Denise's house. Levi asks, "Well, how's it in my blood?" "That's what we're trying to figure out." They tell him that they took his DNA swabs and they compared it to the DNA in the house and Denise's house. And it's not only Denise's blood, but his blood is mixed in with it. It doesn't seem wild. He just asks, "Well, how does that work?" "Well, everybody's DNA is unique. Everybody has different DNA. Everybody. It's like fingerprints. Nobody has the same fingerprints in the whole world." "Even brothers?"

• 5:55Speaker 00

  "Even brothers." Now, the match to the DNA was to both of them, but it's interesting that that's his response. And I think that's just what the investigators are trying to get at. When DNA is brought up again, he says, "I guess everybody's is unique. I just mean like, my brother is literally, well, my twin." "I don't know how that would happen to begin with, how my blood would be at her house." If Levi says it's not his blood, then whose blood is it? And there's one interesting thing that Levi says. The investigators do the whole, "Well, we think whatever happened here is not malicious. We think it's a stupid mistake and that everyone needs to be honest so that we can talk about it." But when they say that, Levi responds, "I don't think that murder is stupid, though." Which is like an interesting response. It's kind of odd.

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Back at the house, there's a search warrant being executed and investigators find Marshmello sitting very calmly, just hanging out. What stops investigators, though, is not just that Marshmello is incredibly calm and the demeanor of Marshmello is very approachable, which Marshmello doesn't seem that stressed out about this move, even that the fact that officers are in there just flipping up the house, looking for evidence. When officers approach, he flops over so they can pet his tummy, and that is when they notice that his claws are too small to make the injuries on Levi's face, even if Marshmello were pissed off.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  What does that mean? Like his?

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Like the scratch mark on his nose to get five stitches. They're saying like his claws specifically are too small.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Interesting, okay.

• 7:21Speaker 00

  Which, that's what they say. They find in the drawer of the left nightstand of a bed, Confessions of a Serial Killer, the book, and a brown leather journal that just reads on the first page. Okay, so on the very first page, it has Levi's name on there, and the second page reads, "I will kill you. K K K Killer." And in big, chunky, blocky letters, the last page of that notebook has a handwritten instruction page on how to balance on one leg. It reads, "Stand with both feet planted firmly on the ground. Next, slowly raise one of your feet and stand with all your body weight on the opposite leg. You should be balanced on one leg. Reach your raised foot forward," which points to it being Levi, because he was working on his mobility.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Hmm, I see.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  But it's not just the journal, it's what's on Levi's phone versus what's on Hunter's phone. On his devices, he's talking to someone on TikTok and Levi messages them. "I have very low empathy," which has been confirmed. Also, my plan, I'm on track. Found my MO. He takes screenshots of serial killers' MOs, there's psychological analysis, equipment used for transport, body disposal, naming, possible planning, execution methods, body dump sites, clothing, appearances. There are several photos of Levi of himself that he's taken, like selfies, where he's choking himself and taking a photo, which, uh, I looked into it and it seems like sometimes people with very morbid interest, who want to see what someone would look like

• 8:46Speaker 00

  dead, will sometimes Google pictures, but then maybe it's not good enough, so then they'll like... In other messages to unknown TikTok users, he's messaging about how he has a severe lack of empathy. He likes hurting animals in his childhood. And I guess this person tells him that he could never hurt a fly. Like, I don't think you could ever hurt a fly. Levi responds, "I've killed animals before on my own with a knife. You're right, I probably couldn't hurt a fly, though, because they're too fast for me." He states that he doesn't kill while he hunts. He says, "I don't go hunting," and he's talking about killing. He says, "cats, dogs, some squirrels." Then he sends a message that reads, "Trying to understand my own problems. Are you sadistic at all? I'm fairly curious." Not too long after, he Googles, "causes of being sadistic."

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Then he takes screenshots of information of how serial killers subdue their victims before killing them, as well as how to strangle someone and how long that process takes, which Denise was found smothered to death. And the night of the murder, authorities are able to track Becca, Hunter, and Levi's phones. 12:53 a.m., Hunter plugs in his phone into the charger and locks his phone screen. 2:12 a.m., Levi locks his phone. 2:19 a.m., Hunter locks his phone. Then from 2:30 to 2:52 a.m., Levi's on his phone using his camera, but we don't get any other information from that.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Wait, what's happening? So at 2 o'clock-ish, both brothers lock their phone?

• 10:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, as in, like, it just shows that they turned off their phone. Like, you know, they can track when you unlock your phone, lock your phone.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  So they were both awake around that time? Okay. And Levi turned on the camera for how long?

• 10:18Speaker 00

  2:30 to 2:52 a.m.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Twenty minutes.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  5:21 a.m., he unlocks his phone again and starts searching up Fairfax, Ohio Police Department. Fairfax, Ohio. Fairfax, Ohio Police Department photos. Then later, when Levi goes to his dad's house, he starts Googling again. Fairfax, Ohio photos. Fairfax, Ohio Police Department photos. Fairfax, Ohio Police Department. Does Ohio have restrictions on using familial DNA searches? What was Ted Bundy's diagnosis? What was Ted Bundy's kill kit? Fairfax, Ohio woman found dead. Fairfax, Ohio woman found dead. What was Ted Bundy kill kit?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Why do you think he's searching about Kill Kit?

• 10:55Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  After the fact.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Maybe.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Maybe there's more curiosity.

• 10:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. Then he sends a message to someone on TikTok a few days after the murder. I'm probably going to get caught and then deletes that message. Then there's more searches on Google. Saliva drug tests, saliva swabs, juvenile detention center, Cincinnati, Hamilton County Youth Center. Ways cops mess with you in the interview. Ways cops mess with you in the interview room. Two hours later after that search, Hunter and Levi are called in for police interviews. Meanwhile, on Hunter's phone, they find messages between Hunter and Becca. They do a full search of Hunter's phone. Becca is texting him that she's in the ER with Levi. Be careful around Marshmallow. Why? He's being feisty about the house moving around. Okay, he's trying to hug me right now, lol. Part of the reason we're in the ER is because Marshmallow was sleeping on Levi's face and then startled each other and he got scratched on his face.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  He took a shower and slipped and hit his face on the tile. Oh, yikes. If he gets moody, just get up and walk away from him and keep him away from your face. It seems like all of the digital evidence, Hunter, like his phone did break. He was sick in the bathroom. There's no messages. There's no weird Google searches. His phone was off during the time of the crime. Whereas Levi is Googling a lot of the Fairfax, Ohio. So Hunter, it seems he did look up the case, but in the very normal way of like, what's going on? Like local news reporting.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

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• 14:54Speaker 00

  And with Hunter, it seems like at first investigators wanted to know if they were both involved. But primarily, they suspected Levi in the beginning. But after seeing Hunter's reaction to everything, it just didn't strike them that he would be involved. But more importantly, aside from DNA matching, because he and Levi are the same DNA, there's really zero evidence tying him to being involved at all. I mean, there's nothing in his phone. His journals, there's nothing in his room, there's nothing on his face or body to indicate any scratches. And he also doesn't believe that his brother is involved. Hunter tells the investigators, I'm sure from your head and the other investigators, you guys were probably thinking about like, of course. He has scratches on his face, he left the house, he had to go to the hospital. All that stuff that we told you, you know, is very much so corresponding to what happened. And I just want you guys to know that I have no faith that my brother would be able to do something like that.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Like, I don't know if you guys know, I don't, I don't know if this is spreading too much information, but our family have gone through some very, very traumatic things. Also, knowing that, I also know that having a very traumatic childhood could make somebody be able to do something like that. So again, that's, that's another thing that I feel like it's just a coincidence, like way too many coincidences. Like his face being scratched from him going through traumatic experiences. So it's completely possible that. And there's just so many times Hunter looks like he's seeing the coincidences that are forming, but he stops himself. And he continues, I don't know, like in a different universe, he did that, right? But personally, I believe I thought about it, I imagined it because I'm a very imaginative person. I imagine like, what if Levi made up this story of scratching his face and then what like what actually happened? Oh, and then he snuck out at that night and did that horrible thing, but like, that was just actually,

• 16:22Speaker 00

  I didn't believe that, like, that's something, I don't believe that's something he could actually do. After I imagined, I was like, no. All three of us are very, very, very, we express our feelings very much so. I know that he has a lot of trauma, he's basically saying, I know Levi has a lot of trauma, but we all talk about our feelings. Like, we're very open, we, we're all in therapy, like, that's not how we do it. Even says the day after Levi got back from the hospital, remember he went to go stay with his dad? Hunter says that the reason was because he was triggered and I know that sounds suspicious, but he, and it seems like Hunter has another moment and then he stops talking. He says that Levi told him he just wanted to leave the house because I don't know if he was upset about getting the cat scratched in the face, but it was just like. The house, you know, he's crying and he was like,

• 17:06Speaker 00

  just this house makes me feel traumatized. I don't, I don't know. I feel like traumatized feeling, but I'm not feeling traumatized. That's the words he used. But Levi has a lot of trauma. He gets triggered. He, you know, he's feeling triggered whenever I would talk about what happened across the street. Explain what you mean by that? I don't know. I'm just gonna keep saying this, but this makes me feel really upset because a lot of evidence is piled up against him. But I mean, I don't know if you guys suspect him of anything, but I truly don't believe that he could do anything like that, even though he has all these things. He's never talked about anything like that with you, about hurting somebody when he gets triggered? No, no, he, he doesn't, like, he doesn't behave weirdly when triggered. He just doesn't, he's just quiet. He's, it's upsetting for him. He started crying when we got back to the house because he said, he never gave us an explanation to why he was triggered.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  Like, I'm just, I'm sure you guys can't tell me whether or not you're suspecting him. I'm just going to tell you right now, I don't believe that it's not possible. It's just not possible. Did he say something to you? No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's not possible he would be able to do something like that. Hunter says, it doesn't make sense because even after the investigators came and took their DNA, he says, I mean, we joked about it. I, I, like, how does it feel having your DNA in the system now? Because he would say, he's told me that he doesn't think he would be a serial killer when he's older, because it just doesn't make sense to me, because that's just stupid. He also says that he has immense capacity for empathy for us. It's just slightly less than for other people.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  What?

• 18:27Speaker 00

  So Hunter is saying like, he has empathy for his family. There's no way that he could be a killer. Hunter mentions Levi would talk about how he feels like hurting people sometimes. He feels empty and he feels violent. He's never acted on any of that. He hasn't had any impulses to kill somebody. I don't know for how long. I just know that for the last year, it's been brought up to me. I don't know how long he and mom have been talking about it. I mean, I've been like, for my whole life, a very, very happy child, because I think me and Levi process our trauma very differently. You know, while growing our brains. I don't know how differently. I don't know. Yeah. Hunter says that he feels like, what if he's being crazy? Which means nothing is happening, but Levi will know that Hunter suspected him almost. Which means that Levi would never talk to him again, because if that were Hunter, he would never talk to his twin brother.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  Because the betrayal of suspecting your brother of being a killer would be too much. But also, if he did do it, then they need to know. And Hunter says, he said multiple times, he's not stupid enough to do that. So it's not like he's been acting erratically these past few days after he got scratched by the cat. He's been acting pretty much normal. He just only acts slightly weird whenever I bring up the thing, which makes sense. The thing that happened across the street? Yeah. He's disabled, he's very transparent to us and his therapist about the way he feels. Also, the doctors would have realized it and said something like, they don't look like cat scratches if they weren't cat scratches. Like, I don't remember what it's called, but they said like a plastic surgeon came down and stitched his nose to make it look better. Wouldn't the nurses or doctors have had suspicions? Because surely you'd be able to realize that something was a human's nail or a cat's scratch.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  He later leans back and he's almost like looking off to the side as if he's replaying the last few days in his head. There's just no way, obviously, like, there's just no way he wouldn't tell me or tell somebody if he did do that. Like, he just goes on with his day? Like, I know murderers do that, but him, I don't believe it. I don't know why the investigators decide that they want to be the ones to break it down for Hunter. Like, maybe they want to see his reaction, maybe they want to see if he's going to tell them something else to confirm whose belongings these are. I don't know. But they show him like a very zoomed up picture of Levi's watch. And it's on a tablet, it's clearly a crime scene photo, but it's so zoomed in that you wouldn't know. What do you think about that? What do I think about, what do I think about that? He's just looking at the picture of the watch, he's like, what do you want me to think about?

• 20:41Speaker 00

  It's just my brother's watch. Here, let me widen it out. They zoom out. What do you think that's the picture of? He starts like, I guess hyperventilating. You don't hear it on the body cam, but the officer tells him to take a deep breath. And he says, we don't have any of those blankets. Right. That's not your house.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  How does the watch in the struggle was?

• 21:01Speaker 00

  It was broken. No, I remember him saying that he lost his watch. And when did he say that? After he got home from the ER, I don't remember him talking about it. And then, when he left, he came back and he said he doesn't know where he put his watch. But Hunter is still defending his brother. The way he sounded, I don't know, like, it was like, I don't know where my watch is. I don't feel a person could say that. A person would say that knowing that they wore their watch if they did that. They show Hunter a picture of a knife that he's never seen before. And he tries to tell investigators, that's not the knife that they have inside their house. There's just no way he did it. Like, someone had to have planted his watch or something, like planted, like, only proof that you could give me is if you find his sperm DNA. And if I'm right about her apparently being raped, because it was on the news.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  Only thing I can believe, like, I'll tell you this right now, that's not a possibility. The way he acted after that happened, after he saw the ambulance, he was like, why is the ambulance outside? There's no way that he could fake all of that so correspondingly to the point where I could see none of it. Like, I didn't see any of the cracks, none of it. He faked all of his emotions. Hunter later tries to say, maybe that's not even his watch. He says, there's no way that my brother, like, there's no way, someone in my family, even though, like, all I'm gonna say is I don't believe it. I'm gonna say that I think there needs to be more evidence. I think there needs to be more evidence to convict him. I think there needs to be more evidence. I know you probably haven't shown me all the evidence, but that can't be enough evidence. Like, I know there's all these coincidences just stacked up against him, but there's no way. I mean, my brain really goes off topic. I just thought, what if he lost his watch at Dad's?

• 22:28Speaker 00

  And this is all just some sort of misunderstanding and Dad finds it, or like, he really did just miss his watch. Like, he really did just accidentally forget where his watch is, and I'm in a mishap and I said, that's his watch, even though that's not his watch. And you guys show him that photo and he'll probably say, like, no, that's not my watch. Like, do you guys think that's his watch? Yes. Do you guys think that he did this? Yeah. You're fully convinced? Yeah. We haven't gotten into everything, but that's why we're here. And he starts breaking down. And he screams, no, no, it's not possible. And he starts frantically asking, like, are you saying he purposefully hurt? And then he goes back to, there's no way he would do that. Like, even if he did kill her, there's no way he's the one who raped her. Like, he's not that type of person. On top of that, I don't believe for a second. I,

• 23:13Speaker 00

  I think what's happening is that there's a really, really meticulously planned, smart person who planted that watch there and had been planning this for a while, and it just so happens that Levi had a lot of traumatic experiences. And he grabbed that knife and he took the And they did that. He also tries to reason with the investigators because he read on the news that whoever did this, they referred to him as a man. And he's like, and Levi's not a man. Fox nineteen said that he was a man. He says the chances that this is his twin brother's doing is slim to none. I have no belief that Levi, Levi doesn't have the capacity to rape and kill somebody purposefully willingly, harmfully. Having the person fight back. And also, how would mom not find out about it? And if she did find about it, why the fuck would she hide it? She's not the type of person to hide it. Which I I do agree with.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  He's, there's no way he's stupid enough to leave his own watch on top of that, use our knives. He's a very smart and calculated person. He knows what he's doing. He's not stupid enough. I mean, maybe on drastic circumstances, he was very, very impulsive. He really felt like killing someone, you know? He had no other weapons. He could have just gone into her house and stole one of her knives. Like, why, is he faking his empathy for us? Does he not actually care about any of us? Is that the reality we're facing here? Is the reality that I'm facing here is that my loving brother for my whole life, my brother that I've cared for and cared for me, and my mom has cared for and spent and dedicated her life to helping this person live? And then he asks if his brother is going to jail. And what the chances are that he won't and

• 24:38Speaker 00

  he puts his head down and he cries, there's no way, it's not possible. There has to be someone who bloodied the evidence. There has to be some misunderstanding. And he keeps asking, are you being a hundred percent with me? This is true, this is true, this is true. They tell him that his brother's DNA was at the scene and his head falls onto the table. When Levi is confronted with the fact that his watch and DNA were found in Denise's home, they try to tell him, you just seem like a kind of just a young man. I mean, I'm a young boy, I'm barely a teenager. I know, and sometimes young boys make mistakes, so they're trying to get him to confess. And there's just a lot of odd moments throughout his interviews, like when they ask why he went to stay at his dad's house, he says that it was triggering.

• 25:24Speaker 00

  And then there's moments where he like, okay, back and forth. This whole interview is like an hour and a half. Well, the whole body cam footage is like two hours long, right? But it's this weird back and forth of him trying to appear dumber than he is, or at least that's what my take of it. And then him appearing way smarter than he is or trying to appear smarter. It's like this weird back and forth. So he talks about how he was doing his math homework at his dad's house, right? What kind of math? I don't know how to describe it. It's like trying to measure things, like how long this would be, you know? Geometry? I guess so, yeah. He like weirdly doesn't know the name of basic things, okay? But he also says that he doesn't know if he went to the hospital to get the stitches. He just knows somewhere where there's doctors.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  Okay, and then he says, and then she was telling me that we're going to urgent care. And I was like, so this is that urgent? I can tell it feels like he mentioned he doesn't know where he's going. Somewhere with doctors, like trying to appear dumb. And then he mentions that his mom said we're going to urgent care. And then he is like, oh, so I was like, oh, this is urgent. It's just weird. I can't tell if he's trying to cover up for the fact that he just said he didn't know where they went, but then said urgent care, if he really doesn't know what urgent care is. It feels more like the former. He reiterates again, like, I didn't know this thing was that urgent. It's like a weird thing to say. It's just a lot to cover up for the fact that I feel like he knew it was urgent care, but that's just my feeling, right? But then later he will talk about how he slipped in the shower again. And he says, yeah, I slipped and I hit like the shower sprayer.

• 26:53Speaker 00

  Right? So it's like

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Naming things differently.

• 26:55Speaker 00

  Yes, but then when the investigators look a little skeptical, he'll expand on that and he'll say, I guess let me articulate it better. I was holding the shower sprayer, I guess, whatever it's called. Like I usually do because I was only holding it. I slipped and I felt like this and I guess I hit it and I guess it hit the wall. He does start like cracking his knuckles immediately after. And then he further explains like, I don't know how to make it make sense. But yeah, that's what happens when I fell. And well, because I'm disabled, I was more likely to fall. I don't know if you're aware of that. I've told you, I'm aware of your illness. It's not an illness, it's a disability. Disability, right? That's fair.

• 27:34Speaker 00

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• 30:20Speaker 00

  It's so interesting like this. And then he goes back and forth between again, trying to appear dumb and then trying to appear smart. For example, like I said, he doesn't know geometry. He doesn't know urgent care. But then suddenly, when he's asked about why his blood is at Denise's house, he starts saying, I don't know what explanation I could give you or even come up with that would be equivalent to how that would happen. Well, I guess it would make sense if there was like a blood transfusion, but that wouldn't make any sense because I haven't had any blood transfusions. And maybe I'm just reeling from the literacy crisis. But like, how do you not know the word geometry when you're taking a geometry course for school, but you know what a blood transfusion is? And like technically, I mean, I guess it could maybe apply technically in this case if he

• 31:00Speaker 00

  were to donate blood and Denise had gotten a blood transfusion and coincidentally happened to be from the kid across the street Levi's blood. But standard transfusions are packed with red blood cells, which don't actually contain DNA. So like, this is like random food for thought. Okay.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Really?

• 31:17Speaker 00

  Yeah. So standard blood transfusions are mainly red blood cells. They don't contain the DNA. But if some donor white cells slip in, it's super small in a quantity. So like when you spill blood or like blood drips out of you and the DNA is collected, there's going to be such few white donor blood cells that it's highly unlikely that anybody else's DNA is going to come up, even if you've had a blood transfusion recently. And white blood cells are typically cleared by the body's immune system within days to weeks. So it's a very short window. Now, there are certain people who get white blood cell transfers, but those are really rare. And like, just really rare. The only other time that this could maybe happen where Levi's DNA would be there, even though he had no blood transfusion,

• 32:02Speaker 00

  but let's say he did, is if Denise had a lot of blood transferred into her system, right? Maybe then donor DNA could be detectable in the recipient. But again, if you had that much blood, like that massive of a transfusion, you're talking like major trauma surgery. You're gonna be in the hospital for days until that clears and that DNA is no. Anyway, no, it doesn't apply. But the fact that he doesn't know geometry, but he's wondering about blood transfusions is kind of odd to me. Also, there, I think you could maybe find donor DNA in like a bone marrow stem cell transplant. What are we doing here? Like, that's not the point. The point is, why are we taking a journey down the lane of hypotheticals when you don't know what geometry is?

• 32:43Speaker 00

  It's also very odd that he acts like he's too young and uninformed that he doesn't know geometry, but he offers up all of these other explanations. And the officer straight up tells him, well, it's not a blood transfusion. He says, I think you know. I don't think I know. Could you not remember? I mean, everybody doesn't remember things. I know. I mean, I barely remember my childhood. Well, that's, that's what I'm asking you. Could you have done something and not remember? I think everyone can. Like something that would happen a couple of weeks ago, possible? Maybe possible, anything's possible. I just need to explain it. You know, and so the investigator is like, I just need some answers. And he says, well, thank you for explaining it to me. I'm trying to give you the best explanation that I can and come up with ways how we can figure this out.

• 33:26Speaker 00

  I don't understand it just as much as, well, you probably understand it more than me. Then he offers up the solution of, well, if it's not from a blood transfusion, then could it be from, quote, I just mean like, did somebody put my blood in that house for some reason? Oh, I don't know. Will you tell me, would they? I didn't put your blood in there. I mean, I'm only thirteen. I don't know why anybody would put my blood in a house. Do you have any more questions for me or like? Well, I want, I want to get past this and we're not getting past it. You don't know, I don't know, so we're just not resolving anything. Well, I'm not sure if we can resolve it, if I don't know, and you don't know. This is like a lot. I don't ever recall being able to speak like this when I was thirteen. Like Hunter, in the idea that I can see where a lot of his over explaining comes from,

• 34:10Speaker 00

  because he just seems really nervous and then he watched too many body cam videos. Whereas Leva, it's very like.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  He also over and under explains, like he'll over explain about the cat scratching him. But then when he's asked where he hit his head in the shower, he just like palms his face and says like, around here. Just like a big surface area. Then he's asked if he knows Denise well, which is a simple either yes or no, or maybe even not really kind of question, maybe like one sentence of context. But he goes to explain in depth. I just know she's our neighbor. We waved a couple of times. I thought she had a dog. But I guess when the two special agents came over, they told us the dog had died like six months ago. I didn't really know her that well. I thought that she, I don't know. I just thought that she had a job. I didn't think, I just mean, I didn't know her a lot. I just thought this is this person. Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  And then he has like moments where he, it's almost like a contrarian is trying to slip out of him. Which like, if you've ever had interactions with someone who must disagree with absolutely everything you say, it's incredibly frustrating and they cannot help it. I guess even in police interviews. So one detective who has been largely quiet throughout the entire interview turns to Levi and says, listen, I wholeheartedly believe that there are two types of people in this world. You've got monsters, you've got people who make mistakes. Hmm, I think I disagree with that personally. What do you disagree with about that statement? I just think that there's a lot of different types of people in the world. There's not monsters and people who commit mistakes. The officer says, well, I'm just simplifying it for the context of this murder. There's only two types of people that would commit a murder.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  You know, monsters and people who make mistakes. And Levi responds, well, if it's murder, then it would be a monster, right? Not necessarily. You don't think? No, no, I think murders can happen many different ways. Well, I think if it's murder, it would either be self-defense or manslaughter or something like that. Again, you don't know geometry, but you know manslaughter? He even sits like a contrarian, like he's more intrigued at the idea of like a moral dilemma and a debate than he is like getting away with something. The investigator is saying, that's why I'm trying to find an explanation. I can't put words in your mouth. Levi responds, I can't put words in my mouth either. I mean, I can.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  So weird.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  Later Levi brings up again that maybe there were three people in Denise's house instead of two. And the investigator asks him, was it? I don't know. I've already told you that. I'm just saying possibilities, possibilities are possibilities. Nothing's impossible, as I've repeated multiple times. And it's interesting, at the very end, Levi almost tries to bring his brother down with him, or at least that's how I get a read of his intention, because he says, I don't know why I would lie. I don't know why I would be outside after dark. I don't know why I would even do something like this. He says, I just know, I don't see a scenario where me alone, or me myself, would ever do that. Which is like really weird. He's saying, I would never do this, but also if I did, I would never do it alone.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Which I have a theory, and this is just a theory and speculation, that if, like, I know that both of them were into true crime, but that's, I mean, I do think that a lot of people watch true crime documentaries. But it seems that Levi's interest was a lot more in-depth. I think the way that Hunter was into it, he's like watching body cam footage on YouTube, probably. And he's just like, oh, that's interesting. Oh, look at how this person reacts. But the fact that he, Levi, is looking up all of these, um, the psychology of killers, it seems a little bit darker, it seems a little bit more in-depth, his curiosity, and I wouldn't be surprised if he did come across cases where identical twin DNA did set killers free, because it has happened before. There have actually been multiple cases where there was like a serial assayer,

• 37:52Speaker 00

  and the two twins were brought in and they wouldn't turn each other in. The investigators had hoped that at least one of them would say, oh, well, you know what, I don't want my brother to go down for it, it was me. But they didn't. They even put them in the same room together to see if they would talk about it, but they just made small talk.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  And then they were freed?

• 38:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that case is gonna go to trial. I think they're trying to use the novel DNA of the sequencing. Or like the genome, like full. So it's, it's interesting that, yeah, it's just like very, I wouldn't be surprised if he heard of cases like that and thought that if he kept bringing up his brother, it would end up a situation where nobody would go to jail. The investigator asks, how about you with somebody else? If I was, could you have been present when something happened? Maybe. Again, I just, I always say, anything is possible.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Could you have been at the wrong place at the wrong time, Sunday morning in February? I don't think so. Again, I, I don't see how that correlates. I just mean, I don't see how I would do that. And I don't see why I would do that. That's all I mean. Could you have been there with somebody else? I don't think so. Well, see, I don't think so really bothers me. Could you have been there with somebody else? No, I guess. See, I don't like the, I guess. You either were there or you weren't. But we know that you were there. Well, I mean, you can, I don't know, you can think about my full sentence and say, or you know, my full wording and say, he said, no. I'm just saying, I guess, says, that is what I think. I don't have a definitive answer for me to give. And that's why I'm saying, I guess. Or I'm not, I don't know, but I'm not sure it's possible because I don't have a definitive answer.

• 39:31Speaker 00

  If I'm going to say no, then in my mind, I'm going to say, no, I guess. Because I don't have an answer. I don't have a real answer. The investigator straight up tells him, I think you created this version of events and you want it so badly to be the truth, but it's not the truth. I don't think I would want it to be the truth if I wasn't telling you that it was the truth. Like, why would I tell a story if I wanted it to be true? I've never done that. Your version's not the truth. Well, if that's what you think, that's what you think. I've explained to you everything I know in my version of events that I know is correct or that is in my memory. I don't know why you would think I'm lying or why you don't believe me. I mean, my brother's pretty chatty. Pretty what? Chatty? Was your brother with you during that night that you got cut? Nope.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Eventually, they don't get a confession, but November 10th of 2025, Levi Cart pleads guilty to aggravated murder, aggravated burglary and strangulation. He receives the maximum sentence allowed under juvenile law. He will remain in the juvenile detention facility until he turns 21. He is expected to be released in 2033.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 40:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. One neighbor told the police during the investigation that whoever did this to Denise needs to receive capital punishment because, quote, you know, if he gets out, he's going to do it again. You can't cure that. Other nutizens have kind of sounded off online, saying like, that's actually a really dangerous age to release somebody. And I do think. I mean, watching his interrogation video, it seems like if he's that equipped at responding to the police the way he did at 13, I can't imagine how much more fine tuned that's going to get in a cutthroat environment such as a juvenile detention center. I imagine your capacity to learn how to adjust and survive in situations like that will make you only that much more cunning and evasive.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  So, what are your thoughts? I mean, it was such a strange case to see. I think it's interesting that the investigators handled the case the way that they did. I almost suspect that maybe they pled guilty because, I don't know, I just feel like the investigators really shot their own foot with this investigation. I think had it gone to trial, I think the defense would have had a good time finding a lot of legal murkiness with the way that the investigators approached all of this. And I think maybe that is what resulted in this plea deal. But that's just my speculation. What are your thoughts? Let me know in the comments and I will see you in the next one. Be safe.

• 42:19Speaker 02

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• 42:50Speaker 00

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