We Asked Rosie & Bubba from "The Crash" EVERYTHING The Internet Wants To Know

19 year old Davion Flanagan’s family and 20 year old Dominic Russo’s family want to know what the hell happened that morning. How could 17 year old Mackenzie Shirilla drive her car straight into a brick building at 100 mph killing their two boys? How could she be the sole survivor? This is the case of Mackenzie Shirilla who used a high speed, intentional motor vehicle collision to end the lives of her longterm boyfriend Dominic Russo and his friend/roommate at the time, Davion Flanagan. After the release of Netflix’s documentary, ’The Crash,’ interest surrounding the case grew but audiences were left with more questions about the fuller picture. Naturally, we FOIA requested this case to the authorities and received: Over 4 thousand videos. Over 4 thousand photos. Around 31 thousand pages of text messages. Around 92 thousand text messages between just Mackenzie and Dominic. Close to 800 text messages between Mackenzie and her father, Steve Shirilla. Close to 2 thousand text messages between Mackenzie and her close friends. As well as 2 thousand pages of Instagram DMs. 2 entire phone data extraction files with hundreds of personal videos, photos, and audio messages. And 97 jail calls from Mackenzie post-conviction. We have gone through all of it and we’re here to break it down for you. Davion Flanagan Memorial Scholarship Fund Change the Game for Dom Foundation Petition · "Dom and Davion's Law" - Victims Before Influencers: Modernize Son of Sam Laws - United States · Change.org Full show notes available at RottenMangoPodcast.com

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• 0:59Speaker 00

  If you have not already, listen to the previous four parts of the series. I recommend doing that first. We went through the crash itself that was caused by seventeen-year-old Mackenzie Shirilla, where she killed her boyfriend Dominic Russo and their friend Davion Flanagan in the backseat. We went through all of her actions after the crash that a lot of people were side-eyeing. We went through the Netflix documentary. Mackenzie was interviewed for the Netflix documentary. We went through all of the things she said. Her best friends, her close friends, were also speaking out. Some of them were interviewed for the Netflix documentary, and a lot of them were hated. And two of the more controversial figures to come out of this Netflix doc, The Crash, are Rosie and Bubba.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  They were there the night at Paul's gathering that Mackenzie, Dom, and Davion were at, all before they left. And when they leave Paul's place, that's when the crash happens. So these are the last people to see Dom and Davion alive. Rosie and Bubba are, you know, they did not have a... They were not widely liked after the Netflix documentary for a lot of good reasons on the internet. And we were able to get them on a two-hour phone call with our researchers and ask them all of the questions, and most importantly, ask them what really happened that night.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  Now, I will say that I was not on that phone call. There was a schedule overlap, but also we thought it would be best for me to remain as objective as possible. And I thought the easiest way would be to not be on that phone call. I gave my researchers a list of questions that I had. My researchers also had their own list of questions and we were just rapid fire, making sure that everything got answered. And I will say that Rosie and Baba do not seem to be at least evasive to any of the questions. I did, of course, try my best to verify their statements, but there are some that are for obvious reasons, impossible to verify. And for those, I'm just going to point out, there's no way to verify that. And at times where I do attempt to verify with the FOIA file, I'm just going to walk you through my steps and thought process

• 3:17Speaker 00

  of how I tried to verify information, just so we can be as transparent as possible. Rosie and Baba first stated that they felt the Netflix documentary was extremely edited and twisted in a way that does not represent how they truly feel. Rosie told us that she was under the impression that the Netflix doc was talking to her and Baba about the viewpoint of losing friends in such a tragic way at such a young age. She says, "I just feel like it really was twisted in a way that we never anticipated." Rosie states that it wasn't what she was expecting to represent her feelings about the whole situation. So they were describing that Rosie had an eight hour long interview with producers. Baba had a 15 hour long interview and it was just like rapid fire questions all day. And they said that they answered each and every single one of them.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  And when they saw the final documentary, they even thought the original documentary was going to be a three-part docu-series, but it got cut down to just one and a half hours. Rosie states she felt like they just took out a lot of things for simplicity's sake. They never got an early viewing of the documentary either. And when it did release, Rosie and Baba stayed up till like 3:00 in the morning to watch it. And they state that they were taken aback by how much was cut out. For like eight hours, 15 hours, they say like it's only like 15 minutes make it in. And they thought that it was not a good representation of their interviews, is what they state to us. Rosie shares her grievances with the way the documentary cut her parts stating that she felt a lot of trust with the production team. She says they did Don't Fuck With Cats,

• 4:44Speaker 00

  which is honestly great. We think it's a great film. Everybody loves that. We just watched it a while ago. So they had a lot of reputable films. I thought they would take our story responsibly. And they were always super nice every time we communicated with them. And we really poured our hearts out and they came into our house like multiple times. They felt it was just not accurate of how they feel. So how do they feel? The biggest question that we had for Rosie, other than what happened that night was, why would you not talk to the police, but you want to talk to Netflix? That also seemed to be the biggest point of contention on the internet when it comes to Rosie. I did see through the police file throughout the police report, there are multiple mentions in the detective's incident report that he has reached out to Rosie and she has declined to speak with him. He's like reaching out multiple days. This is a major, completely understandable

• 5:28Speaker 00

  point that's being made online. I too am of the belief of like, how can you really grieve the loss of two friends, but you did everything you could to avoid helping the investigators figure out the truth of what happened that night? It doesn't make sense. It does give cover up vibes understandably. So we asked, why did she not talk to the investigators? In the documentary, in the Netflix documentary, the prosecutor is also interviewed and he states, quote, "You have no idea how hard I tried to get Rosie Graham to talk to me, to cooperate with me. But it's good to hear that she talked to you guys. I'm fascinated to hear what she has to say." So we asked Rosie and she states she did talk to the prosecutor. Really? Yeah. She says, quote, "I did speak with the prosecutor and I don't really know what got lost in communication with them." She later mentions that she had two phone calls with the prosecutors.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  One was an hour long, the other one was 30 minutes long, and that she has the phone record to prove these calls happened. Now here's what I did to verify this statement. Like I said, there are multiple mentions in the detective report of trying to get Rosie to come in for an interview. There is no mention that she ever did. However, Rosie does state that she talked to the prosecutor, not the detective. So in the detective's report, he's like, Rosie won't talk to me, Rosie won't talk to me. Rosie tells us she talked to the prosecutor, two different people. She says this. So there's all this talk online that no- Nobody cooperated and I think it's the way that documentary was edited. Where I was explaining the initial police hesitation and they cut it with the prosecutor. Which he's not even the police, you know, the prosecutor didn't call us originally and I explained it on the documentary in depth.

• 6:57Speaker 00

  And once Mackenzie was arrested, the prosecutor called me. It went to voicemail, I called him back and I have phone records of two phone calls with him. One was half an hour and the other one was an hour long.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  The guy who's saying that in the Netflix doc?

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  That's the prosecutor?

• 7:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  So the prosecutor, she's saying they did speak?

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Then why did he in the uh, in the documentary saying?

• 7:18Speaker 00

  She thinks it's the way the producers edited it.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  Oh, so she's saying the prosecutor could say, oh, I, you have no idea how, how much I've tried, I'm fascinated.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Wait.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Well, I have my theories about that too.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, okay.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  And so she says, and I remember he asked me, he said, I'm gonna ask you every question I would ask you on the stand. And I answered every question. Then he went on the documentary and it's cut with me saying, I didn't initially want to talk to the police because I thought it was a drug investigation. And then the prosecutor saying, oh, I'm so fascinated with what she's going to say. Insinuating that I never spoke with him, but I did. And I was under the impression that I would be testifying during the trial and I was willing to. And he said, okay, I'm gonna call you whenever to come in to testify. And I was like, great. And I never heard back. Now, I did find in the FOIA that there is a grand jury subpoena for Rosie that was in fact issued after Mackenzie's arrest. And there are no notes from any sort of conversation that Rosie had with the prosecutor.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  I think it could be possible that this conversation with the prosecutor was due to the grand jury subpoena. So she's not, she's refusing to talk to the police, she gets a grand jury subpoena, the prosecutor calls her. And she does have these two phone calls with the prosecutor from what I can, I guess I tend to believe that, right? Now, so far, all signs point to the fact that she probably did talk to the prosecutor. Because there is a subpoena, which means if she did not cooperate, they could have, like in the David case with Neo, arrested her. Now, does it mean that every time someone doesn't cooperate with the prosecutor after a grand jury subpoena, they're automatically arrested? No, so like, there's no way to factually say this is correct. It's not, it doesn't happen all the time. It's just like you could get arrested if you don't cooperate.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  But she states that it was after Mackenzie's arrest and the grand jury subpoena was issued after Mackenzie's arrest.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  I see. Okay. Okay. So the timeline adds up.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  Yes. So it seems like from end of July to November, she doesn't talk to any detective. And then after the grand jury subpoena, it seems like that is when she talks to the prosecutor on these two phone calls. So if that's the case, that means Rosie did in fact talk to prosecutors. But it was after being subpoenaed and it was after Mackenzie's arrest is kind of what I've feel like I can piece together through the FOIA. Right? Now, the prosecutor states to Netflix, you have no idea how hard I tried to get Rosie Graham to talk to me. Which I mean, it insinuates that Rosie Graham didn't talk, but also it doesn't because he's just saying like, like I had to work on this a lot. Right? I tried really hard. You have no idea how hard I tried. And then, and then it cuts with him saying to cooperate with me.

• 9:51Speaker 00

  So I, you have no idea how hard I tried to get Rosie Graham to talk to me, to cooperate with me. But it's good to hear that she talked to you guys. I'm fascinated to hear what she has to say. He says to talk to me, to cooperate with me. It could be possible that Rosie did talk to the prosecutor, but maybe he said that because she might not have cooperated in the way that he was anticipating.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  Okay, okay.

• 10:10Speaker 00

  Like the fact that he's saying, I'm fascinated to hear what she has to say, like it, maybe there's an insinuation of we did grand jury subpoena her, but maybe they got nothing out of that phone call. Maybe those two phone calls, there was nothing that they felt was.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  So why didn't she talk to the police and them in the initial three, four months?

• 10:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, there's a whole thing. We asked them about that too. So I do want to note that if there was, I mean, these phone calls, it's really hard to verify if they did occur in the sense of, or like even the substance of the phone calls, because if it were to have happened after a grand jury subpoena, a lot of things that are pertaining to grand juries are sealed typically. So it's just like, um, yeah, but the wording there is very interesting. How hard he tried to get Rosie Graham to talk to him, to cooperate with him. I'm fascinated to hear what she has to say. Another interesting point is Rosie mentioned to our researchers, quote, and he said, okay, I'm gonna call you whenever to come testify. And I was like, great. And I never heard back, which could indicate that the prosecutors felt like she was unhelpful to the prosecution's case. And these are all me just like tinfoil adding this and coming up

• 11:14Speaker 00

  with my own opinions. I still want to note, even if this were true in a hypothetical parallel universe, even if Rosie wasn't helpful to the prosecution's case, that doesn't mean anything. That doesn't mean that she wasn't cooperating to the best of her abilities. It just means

• 11:27Speaker 01

  It wasn't useful.

• 11:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just tried to verify whatever statement I could with whatever relevant information I could find that is verified through the FOIA. But I want to state conclusively, I can't really prove anything to anyone. Like, I'm just trying to verify people's statements. And this is how my thought process worked. This is how we ended up. As for why Rosie and Bubba were so hesitant to talk to the authorities, because Rosie never talked to the detective. Bubba took just like a long time, like almost, I think he talked to them near October, if I'm not mistaken. So it's just like weeks of the detectives hounding him to sit down for the investigators. They said that they had a very strong reason for why. And they state that it's not to help Mackenzie. They state that there were seven people there at the night at the gathering of Paul's house.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  Paul, Nina, Rosie, Bubba, Mackenzie, Dom and Davion. Dom and Davion obviously can't tell the police what happened that night. Mackenzie's the one being investigated. Paul, Nina, Rosie, and Bubba. Paul actually spoke with the detectives. Bubba says they all had interviews lined up right after Paul. So Paul was the first one to go in for an interview. And then it was gonna be like Nina, Rosie, Bubba. Like, they all had it lined up and scheduled. And I could actually see on the detective's report, like Rosie had an interview scheduled. But after Paul gets out of his interview, he communicates with the group. And according to Rosie and Bubba, obviously, we didn't talk to Paul, but he communicates with them that the interview's not good. They were like, he was basically telling them, this is what they say. Yeah, it's not good in there. And objectively, I didn't find anything necessarily alarming. Granted, I think being asked questions

• 12:56Speaker 00

  by the police for such a serious investigation and asking about shrooms and purchasing shrooms and tripping, I can understand, maybe it heightened someone's emotions and makes people overthink. I do believe that Paul's mom was in the interview room as well, which could heighten the feelings of stress and anxiety when talking about having friends over and smoking When your mom is right there and there's investigators in front of you and it is a very serious matter because two people are dead. So I can completely understand the heightened emotions. However, there's nothing particularly stand out about Paul's interview where objectively from a third party, I can say, oh, my God, like abort mission, like this is bad, right? But I can see

• 13:33Speaker 01

  So you you saw his interview too?

• 13:35Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  Now, Rosie relayed to us that Paul was kind of getting freaked out by the line of questioning. I could verify this. There were questions about guns.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Guns, like do they own guns?

• 13:47Speaker 00

  Yes. So they were specifically asking if they ever saw Dom with a gun, if a gun came out that night at the gathering, asking if they'll just look in their backyard and see if they notice anything, which is like, kind of like a crazy ask. That was a little, that was, yeah, they were like, well, if you see anything in your backyard, like if you see guns, drug paraphernalia, like they were just like, if you see anything, they were asking if Dom was jealous of Kenzie's friendship with Paul, which Paul is like, well, no, because he knows I'm gay. I mean, I don't think that part is necessarily frightening, but I do think, or at least the way it played out about saying, oh, well, no, Dom's not jealous because he's, he knows I'm gay. But I do think the part about the guns, that probably

• 14:30Speaker 00

  did freak Paul out. It was like, pretty extensive questioning about the guns. And I could see how he communicated that probably to Rosie and Baba. So I think that the whole gun thing happened because I think Dom owned guns or something of that sort. But there was just a lot of focus on the guns for a brief moment in time in that Paul interview. So I think it did freak Paul out. So I think there was just a lot of things happening, like they're asking about guns, they're questioning him about drugs that night, and two people are dead. And there's just, I think he could be very frightened after this interview. Now, one thing that I did take note of, but I didn't particularly know how to feel about it, was that I did take note that in the interview with Paul, and this is before our

• 15:13Speaker 00

  researchers spoke with Rosie and Baba, there was a DEA agent from the Drug Enforcement Administration.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 15:19Speaker 00

  Now, the DEA officer mainly gave a whole little like mini lecture at the end of the interview that he's just Like, oh, well, don't, you know, weed is not a gateway drug. Drugs are bad. You're going to college. You look like a good kid. Don't be doing drugs. Like, don't be hanging out with the wrong people. Just because there's talks of them trying to buy shrooms and trying to take shrooms. And so there was just like a whole drugs can ruin your future and your lives type of type of conversation. The D A agent, I don't know why he was there.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Is he here just to talk?

• 15:46Speaker 00

  That's what I thought, right? But I guess maybe his presence alone, whether it was not important. Cause sometimes D A agents will also just like support other investigations. I don't know, right? But it could also be the fact that there is a drug element to Mackenzie's case. She was found with shrooms on her person. And she was charged for drug possession and possessing criminal tools. So it does make sense that maybe a D A agent is involved. But I think all of these elements, Paul reiterates to Rosie and Baba, and they said that they were freaked out. They said that they thought this was a drug investigation.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Rosie and Baba thought this is a drug investigation.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  So I think the way that they framed it or said to our researchers is what Paul told them about his interview. They started all feeling very freaked out that they're investigating not the accident, but drugs. And like they, yeah, so like they said that they were feeling hesitant. Listen, I don't know. This is what they're saying. Now, Paul tells them that the cops had even like printed out text messages between Rosie and Mackenzie where Rosie that night is like asking to buy weed and shrooms. So I think that freaks Rosie out because she states, yeah, that freaked her out. Rosie says, so I told my dad. My dad's a cop, ex-retired chief or whatever. Which they always feel the need to bring up. So she's like saying, people always bring this up as if like I'm part of a cover up.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  She says, but really it has no play in this besides me being like, well, they're asking about guns and drugs and I don't know anything about that. So she's saying that she, Paul tells her what happened. She goes to her dad and is like, I don't know. They're like asking about guns and drugs and I don't know anything about guns and drugs. She says her dad speaks with their attorney and the attorney tells them not to talk. Obviously, there's limits to what I can verify about any of the things anybody anywhere is saying. But one thing I could verify from this was that in the police document, it reads that Rosie's dad leaves a voicemail after Paul. interview cancelling his daughter's interview. He doesn't really state a reason. I think at some point they state like mental health. But it is after Paul's interview. So they did have.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Yes, but I don't know if that's why they canceled the interview, right? This is what they told me or told our researchers is why. But I can't verify, but the timeline does check out. Now Paul notes something interesting in his interview. That when he visited Mackenzie at the hospital after the crash, Natalie Shirilla, Mackenzie's mom, told them not to talk to the cops.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Natalie told Paul.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  And everybody.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, but he is relaying this to the police.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 18:09Speaker 00

  Right? So I think that's, you know, I don't know, right? So I guess you could, people can interpret that in multiple different ways. But Paul states that he talked to Rosie about all of this. So he's like telling the police like, yeah, I've talked to Rosie about all of this. And he states that Rosie is his best friend and Paul states to the officers that Rosie does want to talk to them. So like in his interview before he gets freaked out. Like he's mentioning, oh yeah, like Rosie's my best friend. Yeah, she wants to talk to you guys because he knows that she has an interview lined up.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see. But after Paul's interview, everything changed.

• 18:40Speaker 00

  Yes. So Rosie and Bubba state that they start hearing from others that this is a drug investigation. That since Mackenzie was technically going to bring them shrooms, whether it be through Dom or someone else, right? There's like a sale of drugs that is going to happen, obviously evidenced by the text messages between Rosie and Mackenzie. They state it seemed like they were trying to like crack down a whole network of people who were purchasing. So that's why they were hesitant to talk to the police is what they told our researchers. Rosie says in the Netflix documentary.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that's what she said about the drug.

• 19:08Speaker 00

  Investigation. Yes. So she, so our researchers were asking like, but that's like really weird. Because it was just like, you sounded really out of left field in the Netflix talk being like, they're not looking into the accident. They're looking into the next drug dealer. It was just like very strong of an opinion.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Oh, so that's what she meant.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  Rosie says, yeah, basically, yeah. She says that there was a lot more context to that. She told our researchers, quote. When we were filming, they sat me down and asked me in my eight hour long interview, one of the questions was, so what was Dom's job? And I kind of looked at them kind of weird because they know what his job was. And I was like, I don't want to say. That on camera for everybody, for the whole world. And they literally said to me, oh, the viewers are already gonna know in the audience. Like they're gonna know that he was sometimes maybe perhaps allegedly, um, you know.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 19:56Speaker 00

  And like, I don't even wanna say drug dealer, be I mean, I guess legally, I don't know, right? But it's uh, it seems like you're like, it seems evidenced by lots of text messages.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. So yeah, okay.

• 20:07Speaker 00

  Okay, so she says that is what accounts for why my response got simplified down. It seems like they were trying to find the next big drug dealer. So she's saying she was under the impression the Netflix stock would include lots of this. So her, oh, it didn't look like they were trying to investigate the accident. It looked like they were trying to find the next big drug dealer. She thought there would be a lot of context.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 20:28Speaker 00

  But instead, there was kind of none.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  It was out of context.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  I do wanna clarify something. Um, I think whatever Dom was doing is completely irrelevant to this entire case. It played no role in the crash. It played no role in the fact that his life was taken at twenty years old. And the only definitive part that really matters in the context of the crash and drugs is that drugs were found on Mackenzie's person. When she was pulled out of the vehicle, they found a whole bag of shrooms on her person. Now, Rosie and Bubba are saying that they were under the impression, like I said, that this is a drug investigation. That's what they're telling us. The police document also notes that the detective did reach out to Bubba's college football coach to try to get Bubba to come in for questions after all of them canceled their interviews. So it does seem like.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  What about Nina?

• 21:09Speaker 00

  Nina's not really like, they don't really care about Nina.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  She didn't do the interview?

• 21:14Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Oh, what? That's weird. She was there?

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Um, she was, but I think she like barely knew. So I think Nina is Rosie's friend. Rosie and Mackenzie were the connection and then Davion and Bubba were the connection.

• 21:32Speaker 00

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• 24:09Speaker 00

  Now Bubba says, "The Netflix documentary, I think that from their original idea, the documentary involved too much, I guess, the drug talk in a sense, and I could see it respectfully why the families wouldn't want that out there. But I guess that was their initial direction with this case or with this documentary. And then somewhere down the line, edit changes had to be made or whatnot, and it went a completely different direction. So Bubba is saying like, he agrees with Rosie that he was under the impression that this Netflix documentary was going to talk extensively about drugs, the drug investigation, the alleged drug investigation and all these things.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Oh, so in the doc, it wasn't talked about?

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Barely, just like they were gonna maybe trip.

• 24:45Speaker 01

  So everything you just said was not discussed?

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, so they share other stories of why they thought it was a drug investigation. And again, you either believe them or you don't, it's entirely up to you. I actually have no stance on this matter as I do think it's still kind of irrelevant to the crash itself. But because the internet has been wanting to know why they didn't talk to the police, I guess this is their reasoning, so they state. Bubba says that the police were coming to his college to essentially ask about drugs. Again, furthering his belief, he states that the police were not interested about the night in question, that they were not interested in the car crash, that they were interested in figuring out some sort of nefarious drug network that he, you know, it doesn't really exist. So he says, quote, "After practice, it's the seventh game of the season. They called me up to the coach's office, which is at the top of the Don Drum Stadium.

• 25:30Speaker 00

  I go up there and they're like, 'So we've been getting reports, the dean of the college is getting reports that you're involved in a drug trafficking case back at home. And that if you become a suspect and not a victim, we couldn't have that image on the team.'" Bubba says, "I was flabbergasted from that. I was like, 'Drug trafficking? I'm like, 'What the hell is going on?'" Because even at this point, anytime the police reached out to me, they would come to my dorm and it was never about drugs. It was always about like, "Are you being intimidated not to talk to us? Is someone intimidating you not to talk to us about that night?" Again, this is one of those things where I could not verify.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  If the school is telling him drug trafficking case involving you, they must gotten that from someone, from the police, right?

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Yes, but I can't verify that the school did say that to him. The only thing that I could verify is that the detective did reach out to his football coach.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  If that is true, then that what does that mean then? That means potentially there could be investigating for something more.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  I think they it could have been a dual investigation. I think they could have been running a homicide investigation. And then the DEA agent is in the line of questioning for a lot of these interviews. Because he could also be running his own investigation into maybe like a high school network of transfer of weed and illicit substances. So I could not verify that conversation. But like I said, I do know that there is mentioned in police reports that the detectives were reaching out to Bubba's football coach. And it seems like they were repeatedly going to Bubba's college. And that is kind of noted. It did seem like they were trying to apply pressure to get him to talk, which isn't necessarily always a bad thing on the police's part, but that's just what I could verify. And as for the two officers talking about how Bubba told them, who's gonna intimidate me?

• 27:09Speaker 00

  I'm big dog, right? That wasn't one of our questions, actually. Like, that was that was not one of my questions. That was not one of our researchers' questions, but it did come up naturally. And Bubba states, I simply told him, like, I wasn't being intimidated. And he's like, I'm like, no, bro. I I'm like six foot two, like, I'm not, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be intimidated. No one's threatening me, like, to not talk to the police. I think I said something along the lines of, like, I'm big dog at home. Like, it was, he says, it wasn't meant in any way. It was more of just like, I'm the second biggest kid in our high school. The first one just went to the Detroit Lions this year in the draft. I was the second biggest in the school after him. So he was explaining to our researchers, like, when he said, I'm big dog, he wasn't trying to be like, I'm top dog, I'm the shit, like, no one messes with me. He was like, it seemed more like he was trying to say, like,

• 27:53Speaker 01

  He's like, I'm just

• 27:54Speaker 00

  I'm like a fucking big dude, like, I don't think. And he's trying to express to them he's not being intimidated. But again, you know, again, this is not information I can verify. He says he eventually chose to talk to the police because he was reassured it was not a drug trafficking case.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  So at what point did he, oh, you say it was October?

• 28:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, around October.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  I see, I see.

• 28:13Speaker 00

  So the line of questioning would be about the crash. So that's when he goes in and he sits with the interview or the police. Now, regardless, Rosie and Baba state that they both spoke with the authorities. Rosie with the prosecutor, Baba with the detective. And they state that their whole hesitancy came from the fact, not because they were trying to help Mackenzie, not because they were trying to cover up anything from that night, but because they state they believe that the police were investigating drug trafficking. Yeah, and Rosie states that she even received a phone call from a DEA agent after Mackenzie's arrest, stating, I heard you're involved in a drug investigation from 2022. I couldn't verify that, obviously, but. And since we had Rosie and Baba on the line, we just wanted to ask them all the questions that kept circulating on TikTok. I'm just going to tell you pretty much verbatim what they said.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  I'm going to try to take out as much of the rambling for clarity's sake, um, which like our researchers did. They all agreed that there was some rambling on the call, right? But these were their responses. And of course, they are going to advocate for themselves. So we did try to fact check as much as we could through the police reports. But like I said, when it's unverifiable, I'm just going to state that outright. About their friendship dynamic, they state that they have been hanging out with Davion for years, since Baba and Davion played high school football together. As for Mackenzie, Rosie just started hanging out with her and Dom. Quote, just a few months prior to the accident, we were just random, like we just randomly started hanging out every day, back to back. Next day, she would call me, like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? And what are we going to do? And so that's, you know, why I feel like I can speak from a point of like,

• 29:39Speaker 00

  a lot of people want to say there's crazy internet speculation and a lot of people say, how could you not know their relationship was so toxic? But personally, we just didn't really see that side of them. I mean, as I said, we only started hanging out with them in the months prior. So I, I, she's saying like, I, I'm not, like, I didn't know them for years. And that was another thing online. A lot of people were saying things along the lines of, well, I mean, we are all bashing Rosie, but at least she's a ride or die best friend to Mackenzie and we would all probably want a ride or die best friend. Rosie states that she actually is just like a recent friend with Mackenzie. She states that while they did hang out every day for a few months, because they had gotten to know each other a few months before the Crash, she states it's not like they're best friends. She states that she already has her best friends.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  She has her really close friend group and Mackenzie is new to the friend group. She states that she does not feel the need to cover up for her or anything. Rosie states that it just wouldn't make sense for her to lie and stand by Mackenzie because they're not really best friends like that. Rosie states, it seems like the internet is all accusing her of covering up for Mackenzie, but she states that she doesn't have a reason to cover up for Mackenzie because they're not even best friends. Now, in the FOIA file, I mean, there's, I tried my best to verify. There is a little over 600 pages of text messages between Mackenzie and Rosie. We did read through all of it just to figure out what kind of friendship it was. It was kind of a bizarre friendship. So for example, July 6, 2022, Mackenzie texts Rosie, do you like matcha?

• 31:06Speaker 00

  Rosie responds, my mom's being really annoying and I have to go shopping with her to get food. I asked her for food money and she started arguing with me. Mackenzie responds, oh damn, come next time. And also like you post yourself in a bikini and like show your butt, but like if I did that, my whole TikTok would be getting fucking banned. I'm so jealous. Yeah, I need to get money, brah. I don't even know what I'm gonna do to get famous. Oh my God, I don't know why they do that to certain people. Dude, we're perfect duo to be famous. This is 25 days before the crash. Rosie tries to sympathize with Mackenzie about her TikTok that keeps getting banned. They banned like three of your accounts, I feel like, and literally like we're gonna be on our model shit. Mackenzie sends Rosie a picture and says, this is what got removed. Rosie explains that she tried to send Mackenzie a TikTok, but they banned Mackenzie, so it's too late.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  Your account is there, but no profile pic and I can't DM. Mackenzie's freaking out like, oh my God, they took my profile pic? Should I go private? I hope they don't ban my whole account. That happened to me the other day and then it just went back to normal. Mackenzie will then send Rosie, I'm making a media kit. You gotta tell me if it's good. Side note, this is Mackenzie's media kit, by the way, and she writes, my name is Kenzie Shirilla. I'm a petite model from Cleveland, Ohio. I love to express my personality through fashion and photography. One of my goals on social media is to help people be themselves and embrace the style they love. I'm extremely body inclusive. I would love for brands to be more inclusive to the smaller sizes as well as the larger sizes. I'm extremely big on healthy living. Clean brands, organic food. And then Mackenzie will just like suddenly text Rosie.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Do you know you can order animal shit anonymously to people's houses? Like when I say animal, I'm talking like elephant shit, like that or lion. Seven hours later, Mackenzie is asking Rosie, how much you make from TikTok? Rosie's like, uh, depends if I have a good month, like good videos that month. The most was like a hundred fifty, sometimes it's like forty. Mackenzie's like, dude, I'm jealous. I need to get in on that fund. I have eighty eight dollars from going live. I want more. Oh, my God, I've never made anything going live, only from the creator fund. And so there's like, just like rants about TikTok, mainly Mackenzie complaining. She complains that someone reported her account for being under fourteen. She has Rosie fill out something that's gonna help confirm that she's not under fourteen. Rosie writes, okay, I filled it out and said hella about how you're an influencer,

• 33:18Speaker 00

  literally graduated high school and you're being mass reported for being thirteen when you're not even and none of your content violates anything and it's your job! Exclamation, exclamation, exclamation. Mackenzie writes, I love you so much and bruh, tomorrow's gonna be so fun. Yes, they better give you your fucking account. I'll fuck someone up. They better, I'm manifesting. Mackenzie complains, literally, I don't even know how I'm gonna get my followers back. Honestly, just push out hella good content because they love you and new accounts tend to blow up. I'm so sad about this account, fuck TikTok. Mackenzie is very nice to the people that she, to the people that have the things she wants. So for Rosie, it seems like it's the followers. Rosie had at that point like two hundred thousand followers on TikTok and YouTube. Mackenzie never really got more than a few thousand.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  So her attitude towards Rosie seems vastly different from how she treats other people that she doesn't really want anything from. I mean, like you saw the way that she was texting people and DMing people and just being a brat. She doesn't seem to show that side to Rosie. So I was kind of surprised by that in the six hundred pages. I was just trying to figure out the depth of their friendship. And it seems like, um, they just like share weird ideas back and forth. Mackenzie will text Rosie, you should make a TikTok vlog of you tripping. Okay, this one I thought was a little weird.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  What?

• 34:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, because, exactly. Mackenzie has been complaining about how TikTok has been banning her account nonstop. And then all of a sudden, she's like, you should make a TikTok vlog of you tripping. Which is, I'm like, are you- Trying to sabotage, like, it was weird. Not that I'm like defending anyone, but like, it's just like a weird.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Kind of suggestion.

• 34:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, which feels sabotage-y to me, but I don't know. And then she hits it with an LOL, to which Rosie responds, LMFAO, I want to so bad, but my mom has TikTok and I blocked her, but her weird ass would make another account. SMH, I wish I could post shit like that too. My mom follows me too. And just some like random texts from Mackenzie that read, yeah, this fucking Thursday bitch, we're about to look bad as fuck. And another one from Mackenzie, I feel like you're gonna be scared of my driving. We're the exact opposite. So Mackenzie is picking up Rosie and Rosie is expressing how it's nice to be driven once because she's usually the one picking people up. And Mackenzie tells her, but like, I love to drive too, but I'm crazy though.

• 35:23Speaker 00

  And Mackenzie is just kinda yapping. Another text says, I think I'm gonna make a YouTube, but I don't know what to record on or what videos to make. Later, they joke about tripping on shrooms at the carnival, which Mackenzie thinks is quote, bro, euphoria moment. Rosie says, no, literally. Mackenzie says, I'm excited. To summarize, nearly all six hundred pages felt like variations of yes, you're so hot. No, I love you. No, you're the cutest. Fuck, why is your mom being annoying? Your TikTok got banned? I'm so pissed for you. It felt like, I will say, not like a particularly deep friendship. There was no personal conversation. There was no like, much relatability. Much of their friendship is based off of taking photos of each other.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Mackenzie texts Rosie, that's what I'm saying. The pictures are gonna be fire. I don't care if people are staring. If they're not talking about pictures, they're talking about social media. Rosie will text Mackenzie, bro, when you were banned yesterday, your baby cushy account was on my FIP like three times every time I opened TikTok. Mackenzie responds, no way. Same with you, to be honest. Your videos are all over my FIP. And then Rosie would respond, oh my god, work. We're famous. Mackenzie says, I need to hit a hundred K. Yes, you will. You should try scripting with that. Like, when I was popping on YouTube, I was manifesting by writing every day. I have however many followers or subscribers, or this video got this many views and it works like a charm. Bruh, keep manifesting. I'm manifesting my account back right now. Rosie's like, yes, I haven't scripted in so long. I feel like it works the best.

• 36:49Speaker 00

  Mackenzie's like, I would usually write on paper then burn. And then Mackenzie informs Rosie that she's gonna take on the nearly impossible task of cooking for herself. She texts, I'm gonna try to make myself an egg. It's embarrassing, but I don't know how to do it lol. This is like kind of one of the more in-depth conversations they have. Rosie responds, ew, not an egg to eat. I hate eggs. Yes lol, I like the gooey. Haha, I'm done with eggs, bro. I used to love them. True, is that like vegan to you? Rosie says, I'm such a hater. Yes, like I'm almost vegan if I didn't eat cheese. I only eat eggs if they're grass-fed, free-range, no hormones. Mackenzie says, though, I'm not gonna make them. I don't wanna smell, I don't want you to smell when you come because I would hate that. And Rosie's like, ha, ha, ha, no, you're okay.

• 37:33Speaker 00

  Mackenzie says, I'm weird as fuck with smells. I'm good with smells. Dude, you can try sea moss. Oh my god, yes. Do you want Chipotle? I'll make Dom go get you some too. I'm okay, bet.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  So they never fought in the texts? Like, you know how Mackenzie will crash out and?

• 37:49Speaker 00

  No, and I think it's literally because, well, here's me speculating, but I do think that Mackenzie is very kind to people who she thinks will help her get what she wants.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz she cares about herself the most, right?

• 38:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's so interesting. So she's very polite and just supportive?

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, other than the only part where I was like, mm, weird, was when Mackenzie was like, you should make a vlog of yourself tripping. It felt a little sabotagy. After all of her rants about getting banned on TikTok for doing nothing, and then she's like, hey, violate community guidelines right now. It was just kind of weird, okay?

• 38:26Speaker 01

  And you think that's why Rosie responds, you know, describes Mackenzie in that way? Is because of that's kind of the friendship she has with?

• 38:35Speaker 00

  Yes, I think it would be understandable to see where Rosie is coming from in how she describes her relationship with Mackenzie and how she specifically felt about Mackenzie. I think the part that people might have problems with for sure is the fact that you didn't know her that long and you had more of a surface-level friendship, and yet it does seem like she has a lot of hope and faith. In Mackenzie's that this was an accident. Like, they don't one hundred percent think it's an accident, at least from what they told our researchers in the sense of like, they're dead set, like, this was an accident. They're not like Mackenzie and Mackenzie's parents. They are more so, they stayed on the side of, yeah, I think it's completely understandable for Rosie to speak on her friendship with Mackenzie.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  And it does seem like Mackenzie was a very nice friend to Rosie to some degree, at least in the six hundred page text message thread. But I think where people have a problem is when she uses this shorter friendship to kind of.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Like a character judgment.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  Yes, yes, exactly. So I think.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Because you don't know Mackenzie well enough to.

• 39:38Speaker 00

  And just because she was nice to you for five, six months, doesn't mean that you can really wholeheartedly, ten toes down, talk about her character. I think is what people are feeling and saying. I think that's why, you know, there's like kind of a weird argument of people are saying like, would it be better if they were best friends forever? You know, because then it's like, you can kind of understand. It's like, ah, maybe you grew up together and you're like, so this is your only friend. I don't know.

• 40:05Speaker 01

  But I wonder if it's like lo- long, long term friend, like then you can really see the pattern of someone. You're like, yeah, I can, I can see her doing that. She's crazy, like.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  But then if you just know someone for like a short period and they're so nice to you, maybe, but yeah, that's the argument that people have online, which is like, you can have those feelings. But you can't really be a character witness. Also, side note, Rosie at one point is like complaining about TikTok banning her randomly and then like unbanning her or whatever. And then she says, I don't understand their stupid ass app. Okay, this is Rosie. Mackenzie responds, oh, that's so weird. It's probably because it's run by Asians.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Mackenzie?

• 40:43Speaker 00

  Yeah. They rant about their boyfriends together. Rosie will text Mackenzie about Bubba, her boyfriend. We're fighting. This motherfucker is so annoying. Like, why am I even with him? Mackenzie's like, what'd he do? Oh, we're still coming, but he's always fucking arguing. Like, shut the fuck up. Stop bringing stuff up that you know is about to start an argument. To which Mackenzie responds, remember, you're the top dog bitch. Tell him to shut the fuck up if he says anything when you're here. Yeah, period. So it doesn't seem like they talk in depth about their relationships. Like, these are very, um, like, no, you're the baddest bitch. You don't need him. Like, it's very, okay, thanks.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  They don't go in depth.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Now, they also contemplate why their boyfriends are so bad at taking pictures. Mackenzie wonders, why are they like this? Rosie says, I'm better off with a tripod. Mackenzie also just rants about everyone, generally speaking. You know, she even sends Rosie this audio message where she says, quote, I'm just gonna send you this voice memo because it's easier. The second party we went to on the fourth, the fucking, it was like Strongsville popular people, like, I don't even know. It was open invite, like this big ass mansion. That's why I was like, you guys need to come because like somebody was asking about bubba. And then I was like, I invited Rosie and them, but I don't know what they're gonna do. Fucking Haley, you know, DePompey, DeMegan, I don't know, like she's saying something. Okay, I can't really decipher.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  And all of them were there. Haley came up to me and was like, she's like, please don't hate me, literally being like, don't hate me, don't hate me, don't hate me, don't hate me. And I was like, Haley, you made a TikTok about me, like I seen it. And then she was like playing dumb and I'm like, Haley, I actually like have the TikTok. I have the TikTok. I literally showed her and she's like, I'mma be real, I made it. I'm like, Haley, I know you made it. That's fucking weird. Like only insecure people make fun of people. And I was like, we can set that beside us. Whatever, you know, whatever you're drunk, it's like cool. And she's like, we need to hang out, try to like be all cool with me.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  So even when she rants about people, it's not as like intense as how she does with other friends so far from what I've seen. Like she's not saying like that stupid bitch needs to go back to Subway, like she's not really, you know, but it's just like weird. Mackenzie rants about how, quote, this person is making me so mad right now, driving twenty seven into thirty five. That's about it. Like there's not really much substance to their friendship and you do with that information what you will. Rosie tells Netflix, I genuinely do not think that this could have been on purpose, intentional or planned. Like it doesn't make sense to me. We were all friends. Rosie tells Netflix, I was with them every single day and I wasn't, you know, there wasn't daily arguments. It wasn't like anything crazy like that.

• 43:17Speaker 00

  Rosie states to our researchers, it's so weird because now I'm just seeing people online making fun of me for saying, oh, we had the best friend group, but it really was like a really chill vibe and up until even that. Night, we were doing the stuff that we would normally do, watching TV, watching movies, going outside, just talking, listening to music. It's like an lost art form and nobody even does that anymore. And it was like, we would do these wholesome things and it just feels like a lot of the toxic relationship dramas kind of sweeping that up. Like we somehow were involved in any of that or saw it and genuinely never saw anything like that. And if we ever did hear anybody threaten anybody, or if they were arguing that night, or if they were arguing about anything, we would be the first people to say that. I would not sit here and defend something or just lie about, you know, what now is a double homicide or about my friends losing their lives in general.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  Oh, so she's saying that she actually doesn't know they have a toxic relationship.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  Or, okay, her thing is more so, people are trying to break down why she's telling people that she did not witness a toxic relationship. But Rosie is saying, but I'm only speaking on what I witnessed when I was around them. But then she also acknowledges, two things can be true though. She's saying like, obviously, I didn't see those text messages. Like, she's saying like, obviously, I don't have their phones.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so all the invert, like, all the videos we've seen of Rosie talking about is she didn't know.

• 44:36Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Basically what?

• 44:37Speaker 00

  But I don't know how she stands. I don't know if she's standing, I don't know how much of the text messages she's seen now. I don't know if she thinks that they had a toxic relationship or if this is a normal toxic relationship for high schoolers in her mind. I don't know. Rosie states that the only nice responses that she really receives now after the Netflix documentary is like, okay, well, I guess you're a good friend though for keeping her secrets and defending her because you love her so much. And Rosie states that she is not doing that. She says, literally, the whole online response is every single person just thinks I'm lying or covering up something for her and I would never ever cover up a murder. That is insane.

• 45:11Speaker 01

  So what, what made people think she's covering for Mackenzie again? Is it?

• 45:16Speaker 00

  The hesitancy to talk to the police and it does seem that Rosie does not think that Mackenzie did this intentionally. And I think that makes people question Rosie because a lot of people have seen the FOIA file. A lot of people have heard from Dom's family members. They just don't see why Rosie could say that having. Such a shorter friendship with Mackenzie. And then I guess people are also confused because they're like, okay, well, Rosie and Baba were closer to Davion. I will say that there are like two points in the text messages where Mackenzie complains about her relationship with Dom. But from judging by Rosie's responses, again, none of them are kind of taken seriously.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  Rosie does say that they had conversations in person, but I don't know, it's just like very, there's not a lot of depth. So I can see maybe why she's saying that she didn't see it at that time. I don't know.

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• 48:57Speaker 01

  And it does sound like Mackenzie take everything twisted to her side.

• 49:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Tells it like this is what happened versus.

• 49:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  What really happened.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  Of course. And Mackenzie is also kind of fickle. So like there will be one time where she's texting Rosie about how she got into a huge fight with Dom and she's like ranting about Dom. But it's like very vague. It's like, oh, he's so dumb. Like he's so blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Rosie's like, oh no. And then Mackenzie will text, you want to come to Dom's? If you want, we can take dabs. Which like, why would anyone want to go there if they're fighting? So Rosie is like, el maio, it's okay. You don't want to come? Should I? Yeah, you can come. Okay. He lied to me, so I'm gonna smoke all his dabs. So then Rosie is like, haha, period. So it's like very like, it doesn't, yeah. But again, the main reason we wanted to talk to Rosie and Baba is to ask them what happened that night. I mean, there's no way that you can definitively know the truth, but there were two people that were there. And this is what they've had to say about that night in question.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  They state that Mackenzie and Dom were not fighting that night at Paul's and they state it's frustrating that the documentary painted it as if. Rosie and Bubba were the only two others at the party or the gathering. But they're saying there's two other people, Paul and Nina. So I guess they're expressing to our researchers, like, what would all four of us gain out of like lying about them not fighting that night? They're like, it doesn't like make sense why people are like, no, they definitely fought that night. Like they're, they're confused why nobody believes them when they say there was no fighting that night. Bubba says he was awake with the guys most of the night, like they were all on the couch. So it was Bubba, Davion, Dom and Mackenzie. And they were just like watching TV. Mackenzie was falling asleep. He says that, oh, there was one um thing that he mentioned, which is like right when Mackenzie, Davion and Dom arrived to Paul's house.

• 50:35Speaker 00

  Within a little bit, Mackenzie and Dom leave briefly. So they go back to Dom's house. And Bubba says they were gone for like fifteen, thirty minutes because quote, they all ate healthy, like they ate non-GMO. So they would always have like special snacks and they ended up having to go back home like ten minutes after they got there to grab their snacks. To grab popcorn and to grab, I think it was like blueberries or some shit. That's what he says. But then they ended up going back to grab those separately. So they leave Davion.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  And they went in the car and when they came back, it was still perfectly fine. So he was like, yeah, they were gone for fifteen minutes, but he doesn't think that they were fighting in that time. Because it didn't seem like they came back tense, like it seemed like they were in a happy mood when they got back. But I guess his thing was if Mackenzie had planned to kill Dom, why wouldn't she have done it on that drive? I guess is maybe the insinuation. Because he's like, you know, that's the whole thing that's completely left out about that night. But again, like I said, a lot of nutizens don't think it was like pre-planned days in advance. It was more so like maybe an argument broke out in the car on the way home. Maybe an argument did not break out when they went to go grab snacks. So the next morning, they wake up or well, Mackenzie wakes up, a lot of the others hadn't gone to sleep. Bubba and Davion have plans.

• 51:44Speaker 00

  Bubba says Davion was going to help him quote, paint the bottom of my truck and paint it black and get all the rust off and everything. And we were gonna do that. And he was like, oh, I could just come back to your house so we could wake up and do it. And I was like, I mean, that's fine with me. And then at the last moment, so he's supposed to go home with Bubba, sleep at Bubba's and then do it. But then at the last minute, he's like, you know what, I'm just gonna go home, AKA Dom's, shower, sleep, like we'll. Hit each other up maybe around noon. Mackenzie, Dom and Davion get into the car. The two don't make it. A huge conversation online since the release of the documentary. And it's not necessarily what was said in the documentary, but people looking into the case. There have been conversations, like I said, from those police reports of other interviews of friends, just like hearsay, that Rosie stated to someone that she drove by the crash site that morning before the police were called.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  And whether she didn't see it or didn't call the police, like that's been like a huge conspiracy online. Right? Our researchers asked Rosie and Bubba says, look, the police have video of Mackenzie's car turning onto progress. Okay, that turn? And if anybody else went that route, anybody, they knew anyone in the car, they would see it in camera. Like Bubba says, it's obvious from a logical standpoint that this is not true. And somehow the media is running with it. So we kept pressing them on it because we're just like, well, we just want to know where this is coming from. And they state that there is a friend, a supposed friend who had gone to the police and said that Rosie was super emotional and had made a comment about how she drove past them that morning on her way home from Paul's. So she also left Paul's, drove by the crash site.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  And like, that's also making her even more emotional now that, you know, she knows they're dead. So they're explaining like, okay, basically, and this is verified through the police interview. There's someone who went to the police and was like, you know, Rosie was mentioning how she was so emotional because she also left Paul's that morning and drove by the crash site on her way home. So like, it's kind of up in the air what that means. But a lot of people on the internet took it with she drove by the crash site. Like she saw the car or could have seen the car. Maybe she didn't look out the window, but drove by that exact road where the car was crashed into the building. That's how everyone's taking it. And of course, a lot of people are spinning it in the more nefarious way and saying like, she drove by,

• 53:55Speaker 00

  saw Mackenzie's car and was like, holy shit, Mackenzie actually went through with it. So she doesn't call the cops and she just keeps driving home. And then because maybe she feels guilt, maybe she feels all these emotions, she mentions it at like one of the vigils. And it becomes a whole thing. It gets reported to the police. So we're like, we just need to know where were you like, where was the? They pretty much like got a Google Maps explanation, gave it to the Searchers, they're like, we live here. This is where Bubba lives. This is where Rosie lives. Like, they were giving the full breakdown of the entire town. Now, if we deduce the main points, Rosie had gotten up. So Rosie had slept. So she gets up and she's like gathering her stuff. She had gotten up to use the restroom. She's gathering her coloring books and eventually her and Bubba are like, uh, let's go.

• 54:38Speaker 00

  Like, we want to sleep in the bed. Like, let's go to Bubba's house. And they said that they were gonna go to Bubba's and they were gonna go both sleep and wake up later around noon. Because remember Davion was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna come help you with your car around noon.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 00

  So they both drove separately to Paul's. Bubba gets in his car and Rosie gets in her car. Her whole thinking was Bubba's parents are pretty strict, so they don't let her sleep over. But it's daytime. So like technically she can take naps. So like this is kind of like a nap. So then she drives to Bubba's house and she states that when she gets there, Bubba's mom has COVID. So she's like, you know what? Maybe not smart for me. So forget it. I'm just gonna drive home. So she gets to Bubba's and then decides she's gonna drive home. And the only way for her to drive home is using really the main road, which is Pearl. Not Progress. Pearl. Pearl is the main road. Like, this is where all the restaurants are. This is where the Starbucks is. Apparently, there's so much traffic on Pearl, but Pearl.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  She passes the entrance of Progress where Mackenzie had turned right. She passes the entrance. She does not go on to Progress ever.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  That's what she says. Now, she passes the entrance and she also like is saying, if I had and I wasn't like talking to the police. She's like, I guess the argument is like the police would have known and they would have.

• 55:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be a crazy detail.

• 55:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, and there's like no mention of it anywhere, right? She thinks that this rumor could have started because everyone was gathered at the crash site, like fifty or a hundred people. After um, the car was taken and and there was flowers. It was like a vigil that was set up. And a lot of the high schoolers would just kind of hang out there because it was a way to grieve together and not alone. And she says, maybe somebody there heard that I drove down Pearl and maybe it got mistranslated. And everybody there is just obviously like trying. I mean, there was just a bunch of rumors going. Around to everybody trying to speculate on what had happened. So she states that she never specifically spoke to the person that told the police this. But she thinks maybe that's how this whole story got started.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  Because I I can see that I could see Rosie being emotional and like mentioning like I was just driving down Pearl on the way home.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  And I passed the entrance and then it just kind of, yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 56:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And this is less pertinent information, but I thought it was interesting. Okay, but Rosie told us that on the drive home from Bubba's, she's driving down the main road, passing the entrance of progress, not on progress, but passing the entrance. And she said that she was getting really emotional. So the whole theme of the night at Paul's and technically all of this was it was a graduation party. And they've been going to all these grad parties. She says, we're going to college soon. We were all locked in to go to different colleges. Me and Nina were going to a college that was like two and a half hours away. Bubba was going to a college that was two hours away. So it was just kind of a lot of stress. And then Kenzie and Dom weren't going to college and neither was Davion. And our friend Paul was going somewhere else. So it was just like, everybody was getting separated. So the whole theme of that night for us was just like,

• 57:35Speaker 00

  everybody was getting separated. And, you know, we're going to college kind of scared. We're gonna leave home and we're gonna have to make new friends. So on my drive home, I'm literally reflecting on the fact that the city that I'm driving through because, as I said, you know, this is the main road. I have so many memories in this city. I'm passing by the carnival that we went to. I'm passing by all this stuff and I'm literally like crying in the car.

• 57:57Speaker 01

  Rosie's crying.

• 57:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what she says, right? I mean, this is obviously like an anecdotal story that is not relevant um to the case, but she's just like was giving us a lot of context. And she says, like, there was this beautiful sunrise and it felt like a warm summer morning, which I that's the only thing I could fact check, which the sunrise and the time that she's driving home does check out. And she says, you know, I have all my windows down and I'm not even playing any music and I'm just like, wow, this city isn't so bad. And I have a nice friend group now. But then also kind of sad because now we're all going to separate colleges and have to try and find new friends in college. And she says, you know, I feel like when I was growing up, we're like, ah, I hate this city. Everybody sucks here, like this place sucks. And then I finally had a moment where I was like, maybe it's not that bad.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  Like, maybe I'm gonna miss it here. And then I got home, I went to sleep, and I got woken up by a phone call from Bubba, and he was just like bawling his eyes out, and I couldn't even understand what he was saying. She mentions how she told this all to the Netflix documentary producers, and they actually wanted to film a whole scene. So they were like planning on doing a whole, like a recreation of the sunrise moment where she's driving, right? But she says, I don't know how it all just ended up getting cut out. Side note, it seems that Bubba found out about the crash because Davion was, had been staying with Bubba's for a little bit. And the head football coach had called Bubba's mom. Bubba was waiting for Davion, so he was actually outside in the driveway prepping his truck for Davion to come and to help with the truck.

• 59:26Speaker 00

  So he said that he was trying to make sure the lines were straight, doing all the prep work under the truck, and then quote, "That's when my mom came out and told me." And yeah, that's, it was just a mess after that. Ultimately, Bubba states multiple times throughout this call, "Mackenzie was not my friend. And I know this might sound harsh, or it might come off as a bad way, but if she would have lost her life in that accident, or some like really excruciating evidence came out, and she got booked for like thirty years to life, and it was a harsher sentence than what she has now, it would not affect me in any way. I would not care. Mackenzie was not my friend." She was more of Rosie's friend. They always did their thing, like when we always hung out. I mean, I've had a handful of conversations with her. I was never her friend. Davion was the closest thing to a brother for me since him living with me.

• 1:00:10Speaker 00

  I own one of his football jerseys. He got buried in the other one. He was truly the closest thing to a blood brother to me. So my whole stance on this is, I just wanna know the truth. The reality of it, at least for me, I don't care how long she sits in jail. I don't care about any of that. What I care about is knowing the true story of knowing how they lost their lives. Rosie has, oh, okay, side note about, there was a lot of, um, people thought that Rosie was doing the Netflix documentary for social media attention, and they do bring up her social media handles. And there's like parts where Rosie is like, oh yeah, when I met Mackenzie, I had two hundred thousand followers on YouTube, right? Rosie says she wanted the producers to not include Any of her social media. She says that it was irrelevant to the case because it's not like they were doing videos together.

• 1:00:53Speaker 00

  And she's mainly on YouTube doing her fitness stuff and that has nothing to do with Mackenzie. So she said that she didn't want any of it on there, but then the producers during the eight hours were asking her what she does for work. And then they would ask her like, oh, how many followers did you have when you first met Mackenzie? And she says, but you have to understand, like, I sat down and they asked me all these things and I just answered. I wasn't being careful with the questions I was answering. I was literally answering every question. There wasn't one question that I didn't answer, basically. So she's stating that she did not do the Netflix doc for fame. She said that she specifically requested it not be included. And then they were like asking her, so she was just answering. Bubba states that he has text messages with the documentary crew stating that Rosie's social media is not relevant.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  So he's also confirming like, okay, we're not going to use her social media, right? Cause they're dating still. And so he's like, just checking in like Rosie wants to make sure. So it seems like he's saying that he has some sort of text messages with the documentary crew, talking about how Rosie's social media isn't relevant. I, I did not see that text message, but that's what he told us. Now I do want to note that there are members of Dom and Davion's family that do not seem to appreciate what Rosie and Bubba have been saying. What they said in the Netflix documentary and maybe things that have been said and done behind closed doors. I could imagine that they probably didn't appreciate maybe Bubba talking about the pendulum in the police interview. Like I could see how that could be highly offensive to Davion's family as well. Rosie and Bubba state that they just want to know the truth of what happened.

• 1:02:18Speaker 00

  They expressed wishes that the trial could have been what they believe to be fair. They didn't necessarily think the trial was fair. Um, they thought that Mackenzie's attorney was not that competent. They didn't like the fact that their defense did not call in an expert. So there was no expert called in to testify that Mackenzie's pots could have played or couldn't have played a role. So they, I mean, the trial only lasted four days. So they just felt like they don't definitively feel like they know what happened in the car that night. Is how they state they feel. And while they do think that they would like a new trial, they also express like they know it would just open so many wounds for the victims' families. Like they, it seems like they get it. Rosie also says she feels like the families, um,

• 1:03:03Speaker 00

  quote, took us originally cancelling those interviews as really suspect. And she says recently, I didn't even know this happened, but they put it in the evidence file that Davion's mom emailed the police and was like, Rosie made this TikTok about somebody betraying her and I'm assuming it's about Bubba because he's cooperating with the police, remember? And she says, I had no idea they were just taking my random TikToks and I was following these TikTok trends. I had no idea that they connected the random videos and matched it up with me intimidating people to not speak with the police. I think she felt that way because she thought that I wasn't cooperating. Rosie says, we definitely thinking back now, we should have just sat down and talked to the police the second everybody else did because everybody says that somehow suspect and we literally only cancelled it because we really did not want to be involved in some big drug bust, especially when we have no credible knowledge.

• 1:03:48Speaker 00

  Obviously, Rosie being there for Halloween of 2022 and dressing up with Mackenzie as Playboy Carti doesn't necessarily make Dom and Davion's family want to be receptive either. You know, more receptive to what they have to say either, to which Rosie says, so in the documentary, Rosie, you know, there's this point where they show the Halloween picture and she's just like, it's Playboy Carti. Anyone my age knows it's Playboy Carti. So it's not really touched upon that that was fucked up. So Rosie's just like, it's not a corpse, it's Playboy Carti. Right? And so Rosie was saying, yeah, I mean, I think they immediately, the family labeled me as like, oh, you're her crazy best friend and don't hold anybody accountable. And you guys are going around dressing as corpses or whatever, you know, a few months after. And the matter of fact about that is, and they edited it down in the documentary to just like, oh, we just dressed as Playboy Carti.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  But it was really like, no, like we, no, we really shouldn't have done that. We shouldn't have done that. I was irresponsible. I don't know, we were in college and there's so many things that I would have done differently in hindsight, not knowing how this was all going to play out. But there is a part where she kind of tries to explain, um, their thought process. Where she was like, at this point, Mackenzie was trying to do a lot of things for Dom and Davion. So she was explaining like how they had all planned to go visit Rosie at her college for Halloween because Ohio University is known for having the craziest Halloween and that Dom loves Playboy Carti and there was like this. Explanation about it, which I feel like I did try my best to keep a neutral presentation thus far. And this is where I would have to voice my very strong disagreement.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  I think it's good that Rosie realized that they definitely shouldn't have done that because it is, like she said, irresponsible. And they've all said that they believe that Halloween was a way to celebrate Dom and Davion's lives and that even Mackenzie going to the Kid Cudi concert was a way to celebrate Dom. Maybe that's truly how they felt in their hearts as it's happening, but I think the core issue with the Halloween and Kid Cudi and all of that is it's just insensitive. It doesn't, it doesn't matter who you say you're doing it for. She could have been bawling her eyes out the entire time at all of these events. I don't think it's the morally correct thing to do. I don't think many of us could ever be in Mackenzie's shoes and do something like that. They stayed off their personal observations. They do not believe this was an incident where Mackenzie pre-planned

• 1:05:57Speaker 00

  an intentional murder plot. But they also state that even if it was some sort of freak accident or reckless driving, they both believe that prison time is still warranted. Rosie says, at the end of the day, the prison time is unarguable and people do get arrested for killing people in their car, in car accidents all the time. I mean, it's not like anybody should just get away scot-free with nothing. She states that she thinks everyone just took it the complete opposite way and went crazy with the theories. But she says she thinks that there should be prison time, but that they should maybe factor in that she was only 17 and lost her boyfriend and friend. Bubba states that the only thing that would make prison time questionable would be if they could absolutely prove that there was some medical incident. Which side note, I will say there were talks with our

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  researchers and I did see a lot of people bring this up, including Steve Shirilla brings this up later in a recent interview that Dom's family were powerful in the area. Dom's mom is a criminal defense attorney, Christine Russo, and she did work for the prosecutor's office. And so she might know a lot of people, the judge that was presiding over the case. Her last name is Russo. They, I don't think that there's any sort of, you know, neither do Rosie and Baba. They don't think that there's any sort of familial relation because that would be.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Crazy.

• 1:07:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, that would be crazy, right? But I think that there are conversations of like, how much sway did Christine Russo have in all of this? I don't know. Um, they, a lot of people, including Rosie and Baba, point out how Christine Russo was talking to the police in an interview and she said something along the lines of like, I know Mackenzie's defense attorney. Like he, I don't need to worry about him. Like he's not a concern. I know his brother, like, and she's just saying like, he's not a problem. He's not a problem. And some people have kind of interpreted this as like, he's not a problem because I know him. Like, I know him. I'm gonna make sure he's not a problem. I actually did not interpret it like that. I actually interpreted as she's clearly an analytical woman. She's a criminal defense attorney.

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  I could see her trying to understand a lot of the, and there are defense attorneys who are problematic, who are problems. Because they will go there and they will say some crazy shit. And they'll try to pull out all the craziest, they'll do motion after motion after motion, like just drowning the whole case in just unnecessary paperwork. Like, I think it was meant so more like that.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:09Speaker 00

  I don't think it was like, I don't think she would ever say that to the police when it's about her son's life and death.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Speaker 00

  I will note that Baba has voiced out again, multiple times, he could care less what happens to Mackenzie. Rosie has stated that she does not think that Mackenzie is this evil monster and did not care about either of these boys or that she premeditated the whole thing or did it on purpose. Which, and this is what I've gathered from reading through every single page of the thirty thousand page document of text messages between Mackenzie and Dom. And I only say this because there's really no better way for me to try to explain the feeling that I had reading those messages. Not that my feelings are important in this matter. But those messages felt more akin to a domestic violence situation. Where the relationship is so incredibly toxic and just the sheer oppressive nature of Mackenzie's text messages to specifically Dom and only Dom and how she speaks to him.

• 1:08:59Speaker 00

  To me felt abusive. To me, if I was in that relationship or my friend was in that relationship with someone like Mackenzie, I would be scared for them. But Mackenzie could. Be very well sweet to Rosie and Baba and portrayed herself differently because that's also very typical in domestic violence situations. Not saying this is one, but with domestic violence, I mean, again, it doesn't always mean that she's hitting him or physically abusing him. But in these types of dynamics, from the text messages I saw, if I had to summarize the level of how it makes the reader feel suffocated, it feels reminiscent of an emotionally abusive relationship. And while the trial is another part that we're going to cover, I think the public opinion on this case, a lot of people from what I've seen,

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  they don't necessarily believe that Mackenzie went out and plotted this whole thing days in advance. In fact, a lot of people think that Mackenzie is likely too narcissistic to want to harm herself just to harm Dom. But rather, there could have been a fight that broke out in the car and in the escalation of rage or whatever emotion that could have come out in that moment, the crash was deliberate. That is how a lot of people feel. That is what they're saying. And I bring up DV not because I'm saying Mackenzie is a domestic violence abuser, but because in relationships, people will behave in ways and do things that they will never do with their friends. It is very, very rare that you have someone on trial for abusing, punching their partner. And the abuser's friends come out and say, oh, they did that to me too. Which we will be doing a full episode, breaking down the entirety of the thirty thousand pages of text messages.

• 1:10:28Speaker 00

  So that you know what I'm talking about and you can come to your own conclusion. But I think that there could be a world where Rosie and Baba did not see that side of Mackenzie at all. And actually only saw a side to her that would make it hard for them to believe that she could be someone that could intentionally harm Dom. Just like how Rosie thinks that Natalie Shirilla is a really sweet woman. And I actually believe Rosie in that Natalie Shirilla is probably very, very kind to Rosie. But Natalie Shirilla, by all accounts of the massive FOIA, the investigation, the way she conducts herself after Mackenzie's arrest, amongst a whole laundry list of other things, I think Natalie Shirilla is a completely incompetent parent who has to have, I think, in my opinion, has to some degree played a role in the upbringing of Mackenzie

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  that has ultimately led to this. And on a real level, has probably played a role in the crash. Whether it be loosely, indirectly, or directly, which side note, she's the one that later states that Mackenzie has a medical condition that could cause her to blackout while driving, but she also got Mackenzie a license and a car. So it's a whole thing, which brings me to my next point. I think that after the release of the Netflix documentary, Rosie and Bubba are easy to hate figures in this case. There are parts of the interview that made it to the final cut. You could argue it's editing, you could argue regardless, they're the ones that said it. It does make it easy to hate them from what's happened with the Netflix doc. I also don't think that they've made it easier for the families of Dom and Davion, whether it was intentional or not. I think a lot of the things that they could have said and done

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  could have really re-traumatized or reheard or reopened wounds for both of the victims' families. I think that they could have handled a lot of things differently. Whether we believe it or not, they state in their hearts that they were trying to do right by Dom and Davion. And in hindsight, they admit to doing some things that they could have done differently, but they tried. I think family members of Dom and Davion would rightfully disagree. But I also do think that instead of focusing on Bubba and Rosie, if you really want to debate the intentions of someone in this case, other than Mackenzie, it's also her parents, Natalie and Steve Shirilla, who actually played a huge, meaningful role in all of this. And that is who we are going to cover in the next part. Stay tuned, let me know your thoughts and be safe and I'll see you in the next one.

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  Twenty years after Natalie Holloway disappeared on a high school graduation trip to Aruba, Natalie's mother, Beth, is ready to tell the complete story. Taken: Natalie Holloway is a three-part series that follows Beth's relentless pursuit of answers and justice for her daughter and gives a fuller picture of who Natalie was as a person. It's the definitive account of a case that gripped multiple nations and never let go. Watch Taken: Natalie Holloway, November 4th, only on Netflix. Hi, it's Stephanie Su. Want to listen to new episodes of Rotten Mango? Ad free. Rotten Mango is now part of Sirius XM's Podcast Plus. With Sirius XM's Podcast Plus subscription, you'll get this plus benefits on dozens of

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