More Rosebud - Gyles Diary, episode 53

It's another interesting, and touching, episode of Gyles's diary, today from the second half of 1981. Gyles's life is still busy - with his debut appearance on Just a Minute, public-speaking events, and showbiz parties... but behind the scenes, serious and sad things are happening, as his darling Pa returns from America with a grave illness and quickly deteriorates. Gyles and Harriet also talk some more about Sooty, Sweep and Soo, and read out a brilliant email. We chat about saying final goodbyes to the dying, Punch and Judy, and how to live a fulfilling 100-year life. We hope you enjoy the show! If you have any fun messages for us, please email into [email protected]. And if you want to be eligible to come to our Christmas Party, please join the Rosebud Family at www.patreon.com/rosebud. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalised AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithgemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithgemini.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  At Lowe's this Veterans Day and every day, military members, veterans and their spouses get automatic MyLowe's Rewards Silver Status Benefits. Plus 10% off eligible purchases with no annual limit. It's one way we honour and give back to those who have served and still do. Learn more and verify now at lowe's.com/military. 10% discount can't be combined with another offer. Exclusions, terms and conditions apply. Loyalty programmes subject to terms and conditions. Details at lowe's.com/terms. Subject to change.

• 1:25Speaker 02

  I'm Giles Branford. This is More Rosebud, coming to you from Grosvenor House on Park Lane in London's Mayfair. More Rosebud is what you get if you listen on a Tuesday. You can actually listen to us anytime, day or night, any day of the week. I say us because on a Tuesday, it's not just me. I'm always joined by my producer and friend, Harriet Jane. Harriet, how are you today?

• 1:48Speaker 03

  I'm fine, thank you Giles.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Good. Tell me, Harriet, how much sleep do you regularly get?

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Oh crumbs, not enough.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  I mean, I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been monitoring my sleep, worrying about my sleep. And it's not because I can't sleep. I can sleep really well when I get to sleep, but I go to sleep too late and I get up too early because I'm just working too much. So I think I get, I'm afraid to say, I get often six hours. If I'm lucky, I get seven and that's good. And eight is once every three months. And then I often feel a bit groggy for a bit after my eight hours, but later in the day, I really feel good.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Well, I've been thinking about this a lot for two reasons. One, I've been going out and about, talking about the book that I've written with Fenola Burrell, my physiotherapist, about how to live the 100-year life and live it well. And there are obviously obvious things in it, like, you know, be optimistic, be happy, keep breathing, fun enough, fundamental. People don't breathe properly. Keep eating the right kind of thing, keep drinking. Oh gosh, people my age are not drinking enough water because the thirst reflex diminishes as you grow older. We don't have the incentive to drink. But anyway, that's by the by. But one of the things is keep sleeping and keep sleeping the right amount of time, which is basically between seven and nine hours. It does vary and you are not getting enough of that.

• 3:13Speaker 03

  I know, yeah. Just don't have time to sleep, unfortunately. Yeah. But, you know, sleep when you're dead, that's what my friend used to say.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And you can and you will.

• 3:23Speaker 03

  And you get lots of sleep then. Yeah, but I do try to catch up. I mean, the other night, for example, I went to bed at 9.30 because I thought, I'm just going to try and get eight hours sleep and I did. And I felt absolutely awful when I got up in the morning. But, and then I thought, oh, maybe I had too much sleep. So you can't win.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  You can't, you can't win. I mean, it's quite funny, Fenola's very keen on instructions, you know, you've got to be able to stand up and sit down, get out of bed and get up off the floor without being helped.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Because they're fundamental. You've got to stand up and sit down.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, these all feel like sort of statements of the obvious.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  They are statements of the obvious.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  If you can't get off the floor, then you're not going to live to 100, are you?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  But most people cannot get off the floor unaided.

• 4:04Speaker 03

  No.

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Many people can't stand up or sit down, that means they can't get up and off the toilet. Many people can't get out of bed in the morning. If you start staying in bed all day, you're in real trouble.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  I add to that, get out of bed in the morning without sighing.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  Oh, that is difficult.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  That is difficult.

• 4:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Get out of bed. I sigh and I think, I say to myself, I'm exhausted. I've only just got out of bed.

• 4:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it's true. I have the same feeling. I mean, the question is Giles, I mean, I don't want to put a dampener on your book, it sounds fabulous, but do you want to live to 100? I mean, obviously you do if you're in absolutely brilliant shape and, you know, and you're like Bear Grylls or something, who's coming on the podcast soon. But if you're sighing when you get out of bed and struggling to get off the floor and can't get off the loo unaided, I think maybe it's time to say, well, I've had a great innings and I look back fondly at the years when I could get off the loo.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  As Kenneth Williams used to say, sayonara, which is different from cyanide, sayonara, which is goodbye in Spanish, which is different from cyanide, which is goodbye in any language. Did you get that?

• 5:12Speaker 03

  What was the relevance of that Giles? It was just a chance to use to drop in a random Kenneth Williams joke.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  No, about putting yourself out of your misery.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. No, I'm not suggesting people.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  Okay, we can cut that aside.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  No, no, you can have it, but I'm not suggesting people put a premise to your end. I'm just saying, do you want to live to 100?

• 5:32Speaker 02

  That's what the whole premise of the book is. It's the 100-year life. It's the seven secrets of the 100-year life, living well.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  But that is a big ask. I mean, we, we met Sean Phillips. She is living well in her 90s and looks, and I think feels fantastic. 20 years younger than she is, but not many people have got that sort of.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  On Rosebud, we've been lucky, they've been particularly women. We've had a whole raft of women in their 90s who really are razor sharp and living a full life.

• 6:04Speaker 03

  They really are and, you know, they're fit and still mentally active.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  We have had centenarians, we've had at least two centenarians so far. And I think, can we tell people? We have lined up for New Year's Day, certainly for the beginning of next year, our oldest ever guest, and he is truly remarkable. Well into his second century.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  And will be starting next year. Way! So I hope he's sleeping well. Somebody said to me, they wanted a late night Rosebud. People listen to us sometimes going for a walk, beginning of the day. I met somebody today, coming in in the underground, who actually took out his earphone and said, I'm listening to you right now with Bill Bailey, very funny. Put his earphone and then walked on. Somebody else got in touch and said, I listen late at night Giles, and sometimes you and Harriet are a bit raucous for late at night. So, anyway, have we had any interesting letters before? Because today's a diary day, isn't it?

• 7:01Speaker 03

  I love it when Giles adds something to my to-do list. Let's, let's do a late night episode. I mean, why sleep when you could just be recording Rosebuds all the time?

• 7:12Speaker 02

  The reason that Harriet is exhausted today is because last night, I do know, because we were in text contact quite late at night, not, she hadn't yet finished, she was doing the accounts.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Oh gosh.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  For July, August.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  Oh, I know, yeah.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  And it's now November, December, everybody.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Still going, still going.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  So that's, that's why it is difficult. Thank you for all the work you put in.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  It's arduous. And I spilled a glass of water on my laptop, which has slowed things down. Yeah.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  You're exhausted.

• 7:38Speaker 03

  Oh, I know.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  But the good news is that here we are with More Rosebud. It's going to be diaries in a moment, lots of lovely correspondence. Shall we have a bit of correspondence?

• 7:48Speaker 03

  Oh, I forgot about that, yeah.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  We don't have to.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  Oh no, we should. We love correspondence, everyone, so keep emailing us.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Actually, oh yes, and we love people coming to the party. Lots of people have joined the family in order to come to the party at Christmas. So this is, we do an extra Rosebud episode every Sunday for people who belong to the Rosebud family. And if you want to join the family, you simply go to patreon.com/rosebud, P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com/rosebud and all the details are there. And we're having this party on the eve of the Feast of St Nicholas.

• 8:23Speaker 03

  Oh, is that right?

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, which is rather nice, yeah. And amusingly, the following day, I've been asked to go on to Broadcasting House, which is on the BBC with Patty O'Connell. Because I think he wants to be a guest on Rosebud. I haven't.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, Laura Kunberg said he'd be a brilliant guest.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Yes, she did, didn't she?

• 8:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then someone emailed me to say he'd be a brilliant guest.

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Oh, well then I'll ask him.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  The next day.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Oh, good, fine.

• 8:44Speaker 03

  He's getting recommendations from all sides.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Good. If you have got guests you'd like us to have, let us know. Today, every other Tuesday, no guest, it's diary. And there's going to be more diary in a moment, but immediately you have a letter you want to share with us.

• 8:58Speaker 03

  Hmm. This relates to something that we played in, in the last Diaries episode, I believe, which was Sue from Sooty and Sweep, do you remember?

• 9:06Speaker 02

  We loved that. We'd been, we'd been a bit disparaging about Sue because I'd gone to Sooty and Sweep and Sue at the Mayfair Theatre back in 1980, 81.

• 9:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  And Sue, who was actually playing Sue in those days, wrote in.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, Brenda Longman.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  Brenda.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  Hi Brenda.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  And.

• 9:23Speaker 03

  Good morning.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  She wrote, and she sent us a voice note as, featuring Sooty, Sweep and Sue.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  I mean, it was brilliant. If you haven't heard it, you need to listen to the last episode, it's amazing. So this email came as a result of that. "Good morning Harriet and Giles. Listening to the message and email from Sue today in More Rosebud, thanks for a wonderful show by the way, brought back memories. When I was a child, my family owned a kosher hotel in Bournemouth called The Cumberland, which was extremely popular with the British Jewish community. Everyone came to stay there and in its heyday, guests would book their next holiday there literally as they checked out from their current one, for fear of there otherwise being no space for the following year. Anyway, many great entertainers would come and stay and often perform.

• 10:12Speaker 03

  I don't remember many of them as I was too young, but I'm told that the likes of Zero Mostel, Peter Sellers, Ron Moody in his Oliver Pomp and others would come. There are two I do particularly recall. One I remember meeting is Lionel Blair, since he was all the rage on Give Us A Clue at the time, which even as a sub 10-year-old I watched, my family sold the hotel when I was 10. I was very struck that as he spoke, he gestured vociferously with his hands, which never stopped moving, as though he were playing a non-stop game of Give Us A Clue in real life." Oh, that's wonderful. I loved Give Us A Clue. This is Harriet speaking. Okay, back to the email.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  I love Lionel Blair. So few people know that he's actually Tony Blair's dad.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  Oh, every time he's mentioned, you make that joke. He's not, by the way, everyone. He's a star in his own right.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  And I told you too about him having the affair.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Yes, all right.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Okay, keep going.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  Back to the email.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  The other guest I remember, of course, is Sooty.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  Or rather, Harry Corbett and his wife, who would come during the hotel's Children's Week and perform for us kids. Matthew was already doing the TV show and had officially taken over, but apparently his father would take his little yellow charge on outings to the Bournemouth seaside. We would all sit on the large polished floor of the hotel's ballroom, and this lovely elderly gentleman and his wife would bring to life the world of Sooty, Sweep and Sue. It was magical. The only thing decidedly not magical was that every show Sooty would ask for a helper from the audience, and some unspeakably fortunate

• 11:57Speaker 03

  child was given that great honour. I dutifully put my hand up every time, with such fervour that my arm threatened to leave its attendant's shoulder socket, hoping and somehow knowing that my day would come. It never did. I asked him once, precociously as he left the hotel, why he had never called me up. I vaguely remember him dodging the question, it seemed to me. It was later that day that my father explained to me that I would never be called up. As the hotel manager's son, the paying guests would have complained, so apparently there was collusion between Sooty, Harry and my family. Well, I still loved Sooty,

• 12:41Speaker 03

  if ever so slightly less. All the best. Thanks for a show that spreads happiness in difficult times. James Inverne.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Well, there you go.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  Oh, dear, James.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Well, that's the reverse of nepotism.

• 12:56Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, exactly.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Because I would have thought if it's the manager's son, well, of course, you get first dibs.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  Oh, well, that, yeah. Do you know what that is? Something called family hold back?

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Yes, it is.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Did people used to say that? FHB at the table?

• 13:08Speaker 02

  They would always say that. My, my parents were saying that constantly, particularly at, you know, Christmas, when we had lots of strangers there and hadn't prepared quite enough of the sprouts or the roast potatoes. FHB would be muttered as we'd go around. My father always whispered as he'd be, FHB, FHB.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Don't eat all the pigs in blankets before the guests have had theirs, yeah. So, James, I'm so sorry. I don't know what we can say to you, really, to make up for your years of not being called up on stage by Sooty, except, you know, Sue's listening, so Sue slash Brenda, if you want to invite James around to your house and give him a one-on-one performance of the City and Sweep show, I'm sure he'd be thrilled.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  He can sit cross-legged on the floor.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  I mean, this, he must, this must have been a few years ago. If he's able to sit cross-legged on the floor, that's one of the tests of living a hundred-year life.

• 14:00Speaker 03

  He may be able to get down, but can he get up?

• 14:02Speaker 02

  Can he get up? Unaided. That's the point. Because you may fall over as an old person.

• 14:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Oh, I love that. Okay.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  Shall we do some diaries now?

• 14:09Speaker 03

  What a wonderful email.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  A lovely email. If you've got recollections, in fact, let's collect. Anybody who has a good recollection of meeting Sooty, Sweep or Sue, let us know. Or indeed, any of the other ones. Nookie Bear, you could have met.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  Nookie Bear?

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Roger De Corsi and Nookie Bear.

• 14:25Speaker 03

  Trust you to come up with some dodgy puppet from the past, he's probably been cancelled. Nookie Bear was definitely cancelled.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Roger De Corsi, very kindly.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  He sounds like he was cancelled.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Roger De Corsi is alive and well.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  Oh, sorry, Roger.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  And has got very good lawyers.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  He's probably listening. Everyone, I mean, what I've realised is, everyone's listening to Rosebud.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  It's quite uncanny, isn't it?

• 14:46Speaker 03

  It is. I mean, Sue and someone that, you know, was in the audience of the City and Sweep show, I mean.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  It is a bit odd.

• 14:54Speaker 03

  You can't get away with anything.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  People on the underground are coming up and saying, I'm listening to it. So, thank you, James, for getting in touch.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Any other encounters with glove puppets in your past? Let us know. It's a little special corner that we have on more Rosebud for exactly that.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, Punch and Judy. There must be a lot of Punch and Judy anecdotes out there.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  There will be.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  I think we've had one before, actually.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  As you know, Alec Cadell, who edits our programmes on Fridays, he, his grandfather was David Croft, who created Heidi High, in which there was a very amusing Punch and Judy man, who essentially, the essence of the joke was that he hated children.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. And Punch and Judy, there's something quite, sort of menacing about it.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  There is. I mean, there is, there's definite menace. There's violence in it. There's, I think there's wife beating, isn't there?

• 15:42Speaker 03

  Yes. Oh, that's the main, the main plot point.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  There's also a crocodile that comes along to, the priests are involved as a hangman. Actually, it's a very macabre story.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, a lot of children's stuff was macabre, yeah. I don't know. Anyway, we, yeah, Sooty and Sweep was much nicer.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  If you've had a happy Sooty and Sweep, or indeed, any happy glove puppet encounter, do let us know. You simply write to us at [email protected].

• 16:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  [email protected]. Now, shall we go and have some diaries?

• 16:14Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, that's what we're here for. Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  It's a Tuesday, and we've got to 1981, we're in the middle of the year, and, well, you'll discover all the things that I am up to. Thursday, the 14th of May, 1981. Pope John Paul II has survived an assassination attempt. We had a late night with Simon Cadell. We went to Le Detour. He arrived late and without Stephanie, that was his girlfriend. They are splitting up. It wasn't going anywhere. He felt closed in. He had to get out. He has. At the beginning of the evening, he was very twitchy. By bedtime, he admitted feeling mightily relieved. The deed is done.

• 16:59Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Gosh, it's quite something. Interestingly, I can literally picture where we were standing the moment he told me this. 1981, so how many years ago is that? Forty-five years ago. I remember him coming in, and we, I gave him a drink, and we were standing by the window in the sitting room, looking out over the garden, and he told me, we're breaking up. I'm leaving her. I've just told her today.

• 17:27Speaker 03

  Gosh.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Is that interesting? But that I should, I can physically remember, he is standing on the left, I'm standing on the right. I can actually see him. It's interesting, you can picture things when it's almost a traumatic moment, or it becomes very, very vivid. But I don't remember the rest of it at all. I don't remember, I don't even know where this restaurant, Le Detour, was. But that moment, I do remember.

• 17:49Speaker 03

  Because they've been together a while, hadn't they?

• 17:50Speaker 02

  They had been together a while, and we liked, and indeed, I'm happy to say, we still know her. The parents have returned from the US, that's my parents. We went to find them at their hotel in Lancaster Gate. Pa looks terrible, gaunt and yellow. He is in great pain. He could barely walk down the corridor. We drove him out to Totteridge to see Dr Simmons, Ma's osteopath. The parents trust Simi, that was the nickname they had for this osteopath. He's obviously a good and caring man. He looked at Pa's X-ray, taken in America, and told him to go and see his GP as soon as possible. Pa doesn't have a GP, so Michelle is going to take him to the Middlesex Hospital tomorrow. On

• 18:34Speaker 02

  the way back from Totteridge, he sat in the front of the car, his eyes screwed up, groaning whenever the car slowed or accelerated. Every sudden movement hurt him. At one point, he asked Michelle to pull over and said, you will look after Ma, won't you?

• 18:51Speaker 03

  Oh, dear. That's awful.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  So, yes, he'd, they'd been in America for a while, and obviously, what as we'll discover, I think he's, he's got lung cancer.

• 19:03Speaker 02

  Oh, wow, wow, wow.

• 19:05Speaker 03

  Poor him, gosh.

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Saturday, 16th May, 1981. In Northern Ireland, everything is out of control. In my little life, I think everything is a bit out of control as well. I spent the night sleeping at King's Cross Station. Absurd. But last night, I was addressing the South End on Sea Law Society, and my train back didn't get to Liverpool Street until 11:55 PM. So, by minutes, I missed the Scottish sleeper and had to sit at King's Cross for four hours waiting for the next train. I'm now on it, aching and unhappy, on my way to Edinburgh for the National Scrabble Championship's Scottish finals. It's all ridiculous, I know.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Michelle took Pa to the Middlesex Hospital as planned. They admitted him at once. No one can understand why the American doctors didn't tell him how ill he is. The Middlesex are going to do tests next week. He's on painkillers now and much more comfortable. It's obviously very serious, very serious. But Ma still seems to think all will be well.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  Saturday, the 30th of May, 1981. A rollercoaster of a day. We went to Nicholas Nickleby at the Aldrich. It was overwhelmingly wonderful. Brilliantly adapted, staged and played, flawless and very moving. Towards the end, I began to cry. Tears just tumbled down my face in the darkness. It was the play and Pa. I know he is dying and it is so sad. Ma cannot accept it, will not accept it. At the Middlesex, when we had our family conference with the consultant, she sat bolt upright on her chair and told him, this is Ma, he cannot be allowed

• 20:58Speaker 02

  to die. You must cure him. You must. I'm so unhappy. But our evening was very jolly. We had champagne cocktails at the Royal Garden Hotel and dinner round the corner at Maggie Jones, a restaurant. We're going to part two of Nicholas Nickleby on Wednesday.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Saturday, 6th June 1981. For some, the excitement of the week has been Shergar winning the Epsom Derby by the widest margin on record. We watched it on the box, and it was exciting, but not that exciting. We didn't place a bet. We never do. For us, the excitement of the week was part two of Nicholas Nicleby, just matchless, and might have been the Robert Maxwell party at Headington Hill Hall today. We intended to go. We dressed for the party. We drove to Oxford, and then we chickened out. There were picket lines at the gates. Michelle said, "I don't want to cross picket lines to have lunch." So we drove on to the Sorbonne in Oxford. It might have been quite jolly, but Michelle's

• 22:02Speaker 02

  back has gone. We ordered some food. It came, but Michelle couldn't sit to eat it. She tried standing at the table to eat, but it was ridiculous. We paid the bill and abandoned ship. The truth is, we're both in a bad way. Gosh, it was a difficult, difficult time. Wednesday, 24th of June 1981. Hinge and Brackett are appearing at the Theatre Royal Northampton. I've spent the day with them in a bedroom at the Saxon Motor Inn, working on the first episode of Dear Ladies. It's exhausting stuff. How it works. We agree on a basic story outline, then Patrick Feif, Dame Hilda, improvises the whole thing,

• 22:43Speaker 02

  playing all the parts, while I scribble notes, and Peter Ridsdale-Scott, producer, sits on the sideline squealing with delight. When we're done, George Logan, Dr. Hinge, sniffs, shakes his head and says, "It isn't very funny, is it?" Then we start all over again. We've scheduled two days for outlining each script. The idea is that I'll then take the notes away and turn them into a proper script. Hope it works.

• 23:21Speaker 04

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets, and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

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• 24:24Speaker 05

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• 25:31Speaker 02

  Wednesday, 8th July 1981. Sports update. Ian Botham has quit as England cricket captain, and I've taken part in the Norland Place School Sports Day. Bennett did well, but for some reason, I was determined to do better. When it came to the fathers' race, I almost killed myself. There were younger fathers there, most with gym shoes, one with spikes, and still I thought I might win. And if I hadn't skidded as I neared the tape, I might have done. Absurd. As I write, there's rioting in Liverpool, in the Toxteth area, and in Belfast, a fifth IRA hunger striker has died, so there will be more rioting there, too.

• 26:15Speaker 02

  But we're just in from Private Lives in Richmond with Simon as Elliot and Joanna Lumley as Amanda. Same country, different worlds. Saturday, the 11th of July 1981. Pa's 71st birthday. After eight weeks and five sessions of radiotherapy, he's out of the Middlesex Hospital and back at 164 Chilton Court. We have moved his bed into the sitting room, and he's quite cozy. He is on four hourly doses of napenthe, which keeps the pain under control, but leaves him, he says, feeling permanently fuzzy. His mood is relatively mellow. He's on Valium to help with that,

• 26:57Speaker 02

  and he talks optimistically about the future. His feet are horribly swollen. Ginny cut his toenails for him. He liked that. He liked seeing everybody, though he tires easily. He's still preoccupied with his money worries, sending letters to his partners to the DHSS in Newcastle about his pension, the doctors in the US about outstanding medical bills, et cetera. Ma is coping. He won't hear a word said against her. They both talk about what they're going to do when he's shaken off this wretched thing.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  Oh, dear.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 03

  So he still doesn't really believe he's...

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Well, I think he's taken it on board, but she hasn't, and he didn't want to upset her. Friday, the 17th of July 1981. Yesterday morning with Germaine Greer. She is good value, stimulating company, and completely ridiculous. For the original feminist, she is hilariously man-mad. Children's end-of-term treat, the Royal Tournament, still exactly the same after all these years. Today, lunch with the bank manager. I'm blessed in Eric Miller, a decent man who seems to accept that it will all come right in the end. Richard Gouldon's memorial service at Chelsea Old Church, John Gilgood read the lesson, Harold

• 28:18Speaker 02

  Hobson gave the address. Touching occasion in a beautiful setting and truly celebratory, because Richard was so delightful and had led such a long life. Evening, Alec McCowan's solo recital of St. Mark's Gospel at the Globe Theatre. Extraordinary. Extraordinary as a feat of memory. He just comes onto the stage, puts a closed copy of the New Testament on the edge of the table, just in case, turns to the audience, and speaks. It is mesmerizing and profoundly moving. And at the end of it, you begin to understand why Christianity is still with us after 2,000 years.

• 28:56Speaker 03

  Wow, that sounds amazing.

• 28:58Speaker 02

  It was extraordinary. I mean, it really was. He did it all over the world, and he just come. And is St. Mark's Gospel the one that begins, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was... I don't know. Anyway, he just came on, stood there, wearing a suit, and spoke to us for two hours, and told us, and just spoke the words of the Gospel. And it was like the most amazing drama. You were held, and of course, he was a great actor, but you were held. He didn't do it in a very theatrical way. He did, you know, there were different voices of different characters, but he didn't move about. I mean, he just stood there, and we were completely held.

• 29:32Speaker 03

  Wow, amazing. Gosh, you go and see a lot of good things, don't you?

• 29:35Speaker 02

  We went to a lot. I suppose it was our hobby, going to shows was our hobby at the time. Wednesday, and maybe it wasn't so expensive.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Well, I was gonna say, I can only afford to go to about two things a year.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's so expensive, isn't it?

• 29:47Speaker 02

  I don't think it was nearly so expensive. Of course, this is nearly 50 years ago.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, nowadays, if you want to go out, it's £200 or something to take you and your friend and...

• 29:55Speaker 02

  And we'd got to the stage. When I was a kid, we always used to go to the gallery, right up in the gods, you know, for a few shillings. And that was fine, a long way away, but you're young. By this time, in our 30s...

• 30:06Speaker 03

  You want to be in the stalls.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  You do want to be in the stalls.

• 30:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  Though for that, I do remember, I think we were in the dress circle, and we were looking down on him. He looked up. It was just amazing.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Wednesday, the 29th of July 1981. We watched the royal wedding. Lady Diana Spencer married Prince Charles at St. Paul's Cathedral. Or did she marry his father? When making her vows, she got the prince's Christian names muddled up. "I take thee, Philip." No other glitches. We are now packed and off to Corfu. A different villa, and because of Pa, just two weeks away. I'm taking Daphne du Maurier, CP Snow, J. M. Stewart, and Anthony Trollope for company.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  I can't believe you didn't write more about the royal wedding.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  It's funny, that was such a big thing in my.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Yes, and we watched it, well, we watched it and made note of it.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh, I was absolutely obsessed with that.

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Were you?

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I was a kid.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  You were a little girl, yes, and so.

• 31:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I had the Lady Bird book, I pored over it, I knew all the bridesmaids' names, I looked at her dress over and over again. Yeah.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  They're still around, the Emanuels, who created that dress, aren't they?

• 31:19Speaker 03

  They must be.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe we should have them as Rosebud guests one day, but I'm interested.

• 31:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember India Hicks saying how difficult it was to, well, it was very difficult to get it in the carriage, wasn't it? Because it was so big, the train. And then when they got it out, you know, India Hicks and the other head bridesmaids spent ages trying to organise it and it was virtually impossible and it did end up looking a bit crumpled, didn't it?

• 31:44Speaker 02

  Oh, I don't, actually, I don't remember that at all.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  Oh, no, it was, yeah, I think, I think lots of people felt her dress looked a bit, yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Maybe girls were really gripped by it, I don't think I was particularly gripped, well, as you can see, I just, the only bit I remember is I getting the name wrong.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  I was utterly gripped, yeah, by Lady Di, yeah, oh, still, still am, yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Friday, 11th of September, 1981. Pa moved into the hospice of St John and St Elizabeth on Tuesday. I went today and met with Dr Halbert. He said, in hushed tones in the hospice, everyone speaks in hushed tones, that they are doing their best to control Pa's pain. That's all they really can do. Pa is very weak, gaunt and weary, and the hospice, though light and airy with kindly caring staff, is essentially grim. Of course it is, it is full of dying people and some of them are very young. It's heartbreaking.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  I left Pa to go to a meeting to discuss the new Tony Tiger promotion for Kellogg's Frosties. And now I'm after St Thomas's, where I'm addressing the Hospital Caterers Association annual dinner.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  Oh, Giles, I'm so sorry, your poor dad.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm just going to read these because I'm going to get distressed, you know what I'm like.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, it's so sad.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Gosh.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Poor him, gosh, so it's September now, when did he come back from?

• 33:14Speaker 02

  He only came back in June, didn't he?

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Oh, June, July, August, September, so three months.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  But I don't know that there was much to be done.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  It sounds as if he was very ill when he came back, yeah.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  And I think I may come up in the diary again, I know it came up earlier, how he had this thing since he was a boy, that he was going to die at 71 anyway.

• 33:33Speaker 03

  Yes, he'd had, he'd seen a, um, a palm reader in Margate, hadn't he? Yeah, yeah, it's funny that. And, and would you, were you talking to him at this point about things like?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 33:46Speaker 03

  His final wishes or saying goodbye or?

• 33:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  You just didn't confront?

• 33:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 33:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's very difficult to do it, isn't it?

• 33:56Speaker 02

  I don't know, I mean, we, we, if he'd wanted to, he would have done.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  I think the reason he didn't is that he didn't, he really didn't want to distress my mother at all and she couldn't accept it. We may get to some of that in the diary, she, she couldn't accept it.

• 34:11Speaker 03

  But could you have had a private conversation with him?

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Yes, and maybe my sisters did, I don't know. They might have done, um, I don't know, they were in some ways closer, they were physically closer, you know, they would hold him and hug him. Um, my sister, Ginny, who's still alive, as you saw, got his toes, she was a nurse, so she was, they were more, uh, they were more comfortable with physical contact with him, so they might have been more intimate. But he and I never, I don't think we ever had a, an intimate conversation of any kind.

• 34:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Um, not that I'm complaining about it, not that I feel I missed out on anything, uh, at all, I think, I mean, I, I think I knew what he was thinking. I think he knew what I was thinking, so I don't think I, I missed it particularly. But no, there was no saying goodbye. Uh, I think there will have been him saying, be sure to look after Ma, and me saying, don't worry, everything's in hand.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Even though it wasn't, and as we may discover in the dowries, uh, they, they were in a pretty powerless financial state.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Uh, one of the things is, I think in a way, it can't have contributed to it, can it? But they'd reached the end of their money. Um, I mean, they'd reached the end of the rope, he had tied a knot, they were hanging on, but they didn't have any more money.

• 35:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  So what was going to happen, I don't know.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Right, gosh.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Anyway.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  It's very difficult to have the conversa, people always say, oh, you should say all the things you want to say, you know, before someone dies, but I can imagine not quite being able to do it somehow.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  You should do it if you feel you're going to regret not having done it.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:54Speaker 02

  But I don't, I don't think you can necessarily, well, we often discuss this, don't we, on Rosebud with our guests? I don't think necessarily you can change gear suddenly at the end.

• 36:04Speaker 03

  Well, that's the thing, yeah.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  That it suddenly becomes a new relationship. If you had a good relationship, and my relationship with my father, I think was a perfect relationship.

• 36:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  Um, there is no need for that.

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  I don't think there was anything that was left unsaid, lots that was left unspoken, nothing left unsaid.

• 36:20Speaker 03

  Hmm, that's a nice thing to say, yeah, yeah, no, that's nice. But, you know, for example, with my father, there are some things I, in another world, I would love to, to ask him about, but I don't think I ever will. And I think the last time I would want to do it is when he's dying, because I wouldn't want to distress somebody who's dying, you know?

• 36:41Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  By, by raising difficult things that they may not want to speak about and, so it's tricky, isn't it?

• 36:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  It is tricky. I'm so looking forward, actually, that's one of my treats for next year, people who regularly listen to this know we've talked often about, um, Harriet's dad. Um, and I'm going to go and have lunch with her family in the spring and I'm very much looking forward to meeting him properly. And he is going to come to see our show.

• 37:08Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Because he wanted to come to Edinburgh, but that was a bit far for him to go last year.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 02

  And we're doing this ridiculous tour, and I call it ridiculous, it's wonderful, people are already buying tickets. Um, and we're going to Yeovil, which isn't that far from where he lives, or he could come to London, um, we're in London in September.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  We're all, all over the place.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Anyway, let's get back to the diary. Tuesday, the 15th of September, 1981. Cabinet reshuffle. Mrs Thatcher is purging her government. Three wets are out, three wets are out, with more to follow if they don't toe the line. Jim Prae goes to Northern Ireland to be replaced by Norman Tebbit. Cecil Parkinson is the new party chairman.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  This is her moving things to the right a little, isn't it?

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is, yeah, absolutely, the, the, the wets were the softies.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  She was now on a gathering, gathering pace.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  I spent the day in Manchester, talking Dear Ladies and the Railway Carriage Game with Peter Ridsdale Scott, the producer of both the series. When I got back, I went straight to the Royal Albert Hall and arrived in time to wander in unhindered for the finale of Dame Edna Everidge's show. She is glorious. I caught a gladiolus, found Michelle and went to the party at John Snettinger's. Wandered about being genial with the stars, but essentially, all I'm thinking about is Pa. Michelle has been wonderful, driving Ma in to see him every day. He is very weak, we've decided to cancel our trip to Venice.

• 38:44Speaker 04

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer.

• 38:52Speaker 00

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• 39:03Speaker 04

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• 39:07Speaker 00

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• 39:14Speaker 04

  That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Good news for anyone who's bad at waiting. Black Friday deals at Lowe's are already on. Get up to three free Select, Wall, Craftsman or Cobalt power tools with the purchase of a select battery kit. Three for free, you better believe it. Plus, select ladders are up to 50% off, so go ahead, get in there early. Shop Black Friday deals in store or online now at Lowe's. Valid through 11/18 while supplies last. Free tools vary based on battery kit purchased and location.

• 39:47Speaker 06

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• 40:22Speaker 02

  Monday, the 2nd of November, 1981. I travelled down to the Penguin Sales Conference at the Saunton Sands Hotel, near Barnstable, with Roald Dahl. He was not easy company. I think perhaps he likes to give off an air of menace. He sat curled up, scowling, in the corner of our railway compartment. He didn't read. He seemed to want to talk, but his conversation was awkward, random. He did tell me his idea for the perfect murder. The victim is bludgeoned to death with a frozen leg of lamb. The murderer then cooks the lamb and serves it to the police when they come calling. So getting rid of the evidence by having the detective eat it.

• 41:07Speaker 03

  Gosh.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  He has a wonderful imagination, clearly, but a somewhat alarming manner. It's just occurred to me, perhaps he's quite ill. He's the same sort of age as Pa, and has a similar gaunt look.

• 41:22Speaker 03

  Oh, that's fascinating to me, because I absolutely loved Roald Dahl's books when I was young. But I'm not surprised to hear he was quite a difficult, an awkward customer.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  He was an awkward customer.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Well, we saw that play about him last year together, didn't we?

• 41:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you can sort of tell in his books, you know, there's an edge to them, which I think makes them fabulous for children. But yeah, you could tell he had a kind of wickedness.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  And I don't think he did die that year. I think he died about nine or 10 years later.

• 41:53Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  In 1990.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, he always looked gaunt. That was just his look.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  And he had some rare blood disease when he went.

• 41:59Speaker 03

  It's funny, that hotel, the Saunton Sands, that's the hotel we were invited to. Do you remember, we got that email earlier this year saying, "Do you want to come to the Saunton Sands Hotel? You could have a Rosebud weekend there."

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Oh, did you do that?

• 42:14Speaker 03

  And I don't think you remembered, you'd obviously been there.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, with Roald Dahl. It's rather good going.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  I know, yeah.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Well, maybe we should do something. Maybe we should get him a children's author of today.

• 42:23Speaker 03

  And they mentioned something about the Applying Literary Festival. I think it's nearby.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Oh, well, maybe that was what it was all about. Maybe that's why we were both going there. Anyway, no, we were going to a sales conference. He was published by Penguin Books, and I was published by Penguin Books.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  So we were fellow authors, but he was a world bestseller, and I was just an aspiring children's author.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, amazing. I'd love to have met him. What an interesting man.

• 42:44Speaker 02

  Thursday, the 2nd of November, 1981. Went to Manchester to be a guest on the Russell Hardy Show. Russell is a generous and nice man. He knows he's too intelligent to be doing this sort of TV, but he still wants to do it. He wants to be famous and funny and loved. Before we went on, he stood in the wings, and as the theme music for the show began to play, he started to dance on the spot like a mad thing, working himself into a frenzy for his entrance. No wonder he always looks sweaty on screen. The other guests were John Inman, who did a clever routine about being a shop window mannequin, and the Tweets, who sang the utterly ludicrous Birdie Song. As we all danced around the studio inanely, doing the Birdie Song movements, and the credits rolled, Russell whispered in my ear,

• 43:29Speaker 02

  "Is this why we went to Oxford, Giles?" And he got a first.

• 43:36Speaker 02

  Wednesday, the 2nd of December. Do you remember him, Russell Hardy, at all?

• 43:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, I used to watch it, yeah.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  Wednesday, the 2nd of December, 1981. Went to the BBC Paris studio in Lower Regent Street at lunchtime to record two episodes of Just a Minute.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  Oh, wow, you were still doing, you were doing it back then?

• 43:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, 45 years ago. Nicholas Parsons said the only reason they hadn't asked me before, "Oh, Harriet, this is my first episode. Yes, you're right." Oh, my. So, 1981. And fun enough, this December, I'm recording some more episodes. 45 years later.

• 44:12Speaker 03

  Congratulations.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  Yes. I think me and Sheila Hancock are the two longest-lived people who've taken part in Just a Minute now.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  You have to say, "Players of the game." Isn't that what Nicholas Parsons always says?

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, players of the game.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  The two longest-lived players of the game.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  Well, Nicholas Parsons said, "The only reason they hadn't asked me before is that I sound too like Derek Nemo, and they didn't want to confuse the listeners." The truth is, I was only there because Kenneth Williams badged them on my behalf. He's a good friend and a good son. He arrived for the recording with his mother in tow. He calls her Louis, and installed her in her usual seat in the third row. The other panelists were Peter Jones, wonderfully droll, and Sheila Hancock, sharp and good at the game.

• 44:56Speaker 03

  How funny.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Yes. Kenneth stole the show, of course, but I acquitted myself reasonably. Indeed, I won the first game, though I know that's not the point. Being funny is the point. People don't necessarily like you if you win.

• 45:11Speaker 03

  Mm, good point, actually.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I should remember that in life. Wednesday, 16th December, 1981. Last night, Francis Crowdy came over for supper. We watched the penultimate episode of Brideshead Revisited. It has been so wonderful. There will be a yawning gap in our lives when it ends, and then played Bridge. A perfect evening. There's nothing like a game of Bridge and an ice-cold gin and tonic for shutting out all the worries of the world. And now, 6pm, Wednesday, I'm riding this on the train from Newton Abbott, returning home at the end of a memorable day.

• 45:47Speaker 03

  Oh, that's my part of the world.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  It is.

• 45:50Speaker 03

  Devon, Newton Abbott's in Devon.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  What's interesting is, we watched Brideshead Revisited and then played Bridge. You had to watch it at a certain time.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Couldn't record programmes.

• 45:58Speaker 03

  No.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  It was on, you had to watch it.

• 45:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  For that hour.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, the TV, everyone remembers that, Giles.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  No, not everyone does.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  No, well, most people listening to Rosebud do.

• 46:07Speaker 02

  No, people like my children don't realise.

• 46:09Speaker 03

  Oh, it's true, you had to watch things at a certain time.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  And if you came in five minutes later, you would miss the beginning.

• 46:14Speaker 03

  I know, hopeless.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  So if that was on at 8 o'clock, if you came in at 8:05, you missed the best bits.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true, yeah. I mean, the show, the other day, I've called someone, and they said something like, "What's the time?" And I said, "It's Neighbours o'clock." And they said, "What?" I said, "5:35." That time is etched on my memory. Every day, I look forward to 5:35 Neighbours.

• 46:37Speaker 02

  Neighbours o'clock, I love that.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Neighbours o'clock, yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  This morning, as planned, Michelle collected the parents and took them to Waterloo to catch the 11:48 train for the Isle of Wight. Oh, I remember this now.

• 46:51Speaker 03

  Oh, so your father's going away.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  He's come out of the hospice, listen. A wheelchair, etc., had been arranged for Pa. They are going to Osborne House for a Christmas break at the army officer's convalescent home. It's the ideal solution. They will both benefit from a change of scene. They will both love the Queen Victoria connections. And it's clear from talking to the Osborne House people on the phone that they'll be completely on top of the situation with Pa's medication. By complete coincidence, I discovered today that among the army officers who convalesced at Osborne House during the First World War were Robert Graves and A.A. Milne. I've spent the day with A.A. Milne's only child. Christopher Robin is 61 now, spindly, slightly bent,

• 47:36Speaker 02

  with Irish glasses and a charming, mischievous glint in his eye. I travelled down to Devon to meet him with Julian Slade. We came to talk about our play about his father. We arrived expecting to find him painfully shy, diffident, and reluctant to talk about either Winnie the Pooh or his parents. Not so. His manner is gentle, but he was completely forthcoming. "We must talk about Pooh," he said straight away. "It's been something of a love-hate relationship down the years, but it's all right now. Believe it or not, I can now look at those four books without flinching. I'm quite fond of them, really."

• 48:14Speaker 03

  Oh, that's nice.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Those four books, the two Pooh books and the two collections of nursery verses, 70,000 words in all, were published between 1924 and 1928, and have dominated Christopher's whole life. Until he was eight or nine, he said, he quite liked being famous. It was only when he went to boarding school to stow that the teasing from the other boys began to get him down. In his dormitory, they played the record of Vespers. Little boy kneels at the foot of the bed, and goaded him with it until he took the record and broke it into 100 pieces and scattered it in a distant field. After the war, he accused his father of building a reputation by standing on a young boy's shoulders.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  As a small boy, the love of Christopher's life was his nanny. She was the centre of his universe. Apart from her fortnight's holiday every September, for eight years, we were not out of each other's sight for more than a few hours at a time. He was closest to his father during his adolescence, when nanny was no longer there. What did they do together, father and son? The Times crossword, algebra, and Euclid. We looked for bird's nests, we played cricket, we caught things in the stream. But when Christopher went to Cambridge, they began to drift apart. It was after the war, when Christopher was in his mid-20s, that his resentment of his father came to a head.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Six years in the army didn't qualify a man for employment, and being a sentimental storybook hero doesn't help either. In 1948, Christopher married his first cousin, Lesley. He says the marriage saved him, but it distanced him further from his parents. Lesley's father and Christopher's mother, you see, they were brother and sister, had not spoken to one another for 30 years. After A.Mil's death in 1956, Christopher's mother lived on for 15 years. In all that time, he only saw her once. His mother was the one area he didn't talk about. He implied that she was flighty, that he had been no more than a part-time hobby for her, but he didn't really explain his resentment of her.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  I suppose he had a choice, to love his mother or his wife, and he chose his wife. The love of his life now seems to be his daughter, Claire. She has cerebral palsy. She has to be looked after all the time. When he was first married, he was fiercely independent. The idea of taking money from his fictional namesake was anathema to him. In the end, I had to accept it, for Claire's sake. He told us that his chief delight in life, greater than the satisfaction he's derived from bookselling or writing, or from his lifelong love of studying insects and caterpillars and weeds, has been using his hands to adapt and make everyday things for Claire. A chair, a tricycle, an unbreakable plate, a special fork and spoon.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  He has this fantasy that one day, they'll launch into business together. See, our Milne and daughter, makers of furniture for the disabled.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  We're reaching Paddington. The snow has cleared. I must stop. I can at least tell my children that today, I shook the hand that held the paw of Winnie the Pooh. And I've been using that line ever since, haven't I? And what's interesting is that incident forty five years ago led to all sorts of things. Julian Staid and I then wrote a play about the Mill family. And just this year, I published, or a year ago, a biography of A. A. Mill and Christopher Robin and Winnie the Pooh. And I later discovered much more about his relationship with his mother and the nature of all that. It was fascinating. But that's when it began.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  I'd forgotten that I made a note of it in the diary.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  Hmm. I can't believe he told you so much.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Well, we went there to interview him. That was the idea, because we were going to write this play. And the reason that he saw us is that he already knew Julian. They were contemporaries. And so he was comfortable. Because I was with Julian, I had a kind of licence. So I sat there writing notes and I kept all the notes. And then I didn't realise that forty years and more later, my publisher would say, it's Winnie the Pooh's hundredth birthday. Why don't you write a biography of Winnie the Pooh, A. A. Mill, Christopher Robin? And I was able to say, well, bingo, I've got all this material.

• 52:47Speaker 03

  Hmm, how fortunate.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  So it was good.

• 52:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  I liked him very, very much. And what is, I think we can share this. Have we shared it before on Rosebud?

• 52:57Speaker 03

  What, that I knew him as well? It was around this time, nineteen eighty one. Yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  So we might have met at the same time.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  Probably was in the Harbour Bookshop at the time. I was always in there.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Because he had a, that's the point. Christopher Robin had a bookshop in Dartmouth where you were brought up.

• 53:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  And your dad knew him.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, because my dad ran a restaurant in Dartmouth, a small town. You know, it's a small town on the mouth of the River Dart in Devon. And it's, it's a town where there's, it doesn't go anywhere. So once you drive into Dartmouth, you can drive along the coast, but basically you have to turn around and go back. So what I mean is the people in Dartmouth spend a lot of time in Dartmouth. They all know each other, especially if you run a business. So my dad, because he ran the restaurant, it was kind of the big restaurant in the town. And it's a tourist town, so restaurant was important.

• 53:52Speaker 03

  He knew all the local businessmen, shopkeepers, because many of them would be customers of his or he would do business with them. And because he liked reading and books, he spent a lot of time in the Harbour Bookshop. And on Saturday mornings, we'd spend an hour or two in there every Saturday.

• 54:11Speaker 03

  And around this time, I entered a competition, which Christopher would have told me about, that was being run at the bookshop. And it was a colouring competition.

• 54:25Speaker 03

  And it was, it was something to do with a book called Hafferty Hampster. It was a Hafferty Hampster colouring competition and I won it. And I actually think I was the only person that entered, because I was in the bookshop so much that anything that was happening, I did. You know, encouraged by Christopher and my dad or whatever. So I entered this competition, won it, and I was so excited because I hadn't won a lot of things. And I probably was, it probably rolls around nineteen eighty one. And what I didn't realise was Hafferty Hampster was, it must have been a Christian book about God or something. So I won all these books about the Bible, trees of the Bible, flowers of the Bible, birds of the Bible.

• 55:10Speaker 03

  And I was so, apologies to God and Jesus. I was so disappointed.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  No.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, I did read the books and I was thrilled to win things, but I hadn't realised I was entering a religious colouring competition. And I was secretly a bit, oh, no, I don't want to find out about birds of the Bible. But anyway, I kept all these books and now I would be interested in reading them. I don't know where they are now, but yeah. So there you go. I was probably in the Harbour Bookshop colouring away when you were interviewing Christopher Mill.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  It's very strange, isn't it? We often say childhood lasts a lifetime, some things we've learnt in Rosebud, but it really does last a lifetime.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  I mean, these things, and here we are, all these, forty five years later, you and I are together. It's amazing.

• 55:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. But I imagine you went to his house, didn't you? Which was rather amazing and down a very, very wooded country lane in the deepest, darkest Devon.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  And after that first meeting, this is the first meeting, as you'll discover, we get to know him better and we meet him more often. But it is extraordinary. And one of the things I, next year, we're going, we did this show earlier this year in Edinburgh and during the show, we talk a bit about Christopher Robin. And Harriet brought along a copy of Winnie the Pooh, autographed by Christopher Mill himself, dedicated to you.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  Actually says for Harriet.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 02

  It's really lovely. It's a very, it's a very special thing to have. And I hope next year, we're going on this tour together, you'll bring the book with you again, because we can share it to people.

• 56:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  People love to see it. So, well, that's it for today. If you want to join us on the show, by the way, next year, you simply go to our website, you can go to my website, jasbrandruth.net, or to our website, rosebudpodcast.co.uk. And there's a little line that says, if you want to see Giles and Harriet in their Up Memory Lane show in twenty twenty seven, click here and that'll show you where all the different theatres are around the country. And you can, people have already booked, you know.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  Oh, that's good.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  It is good. Actually, it's good. Also, we must discuss Harriet, the meet and greet afterwards, because some people have asked me about that.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  I think they'll be able to meet us, which would be nice.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  We will hope to meet you. Thank you for listening. On Friday, we've got another very special guest. I have to say, Bill Bailey, last Friday, has been one of our whopping big successes. We've had some really great successes in terms of people tuning in recently, people discovering us on YouTube, which is nice. But Bill Bailey was so funny, wasn't he? We booked our seats, we're going in January, I think. He's on in the West End of London.

• 57:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I love Bill Bailey.

• 57:59Speaker 02

  And we've got some very interesting women coming up on Fridays in the next couple of weeks, I think. I'll just tease you with that. So that's it from More Rosebud. Thank you very much for your company. More diaries in a couple of weeks' time. This time next week, who knows who we will be talking to? Right now, I'm at Grosvenor House in Park Lane with Harriet and I'm going to go and turn on the fire.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Because it's a bit chilly in here, but it is November. Thanks for being with us. Cue the music.

• 58:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  That's this week's More Rosebud with me, Gyles Brandreth, and my friend and producer, Harriet Jane.

• 59:23Speaker 00

  Hey, we're Nick and Jack, hosts of The Best One Yet. Behind every episode, there's research, emails, spreadsheets and our shared Google Doc, the headline hammer. With Google Workspace with Gemini, Google's AI is built right into the premium versions of tools we already use, like Gmail, Docs and Sheets. No new tools or extra logins, just personalised AI for the way we work. That means less time on the work around the work and more time finding the stories worth talking about. Get AI tools for work. Upgrade to Google Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle/workspacewithGemini. That's goo.gle/workspacewithGemini.

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