More Rosebud - Gyles's Diary episode 49

The year is 1979. Yes, it's another fun episode of Gyles's diaries, including a truly brilllant listener email from Darran Lingley, discussion of Winston Churchill's love of languishing at the dinner table, tales of Gyles and Michele's new boxing sessions and speculation about squirrel blood transfusions. Enjoy this. If you'd like to join the Rosebud Family, for more episodes and a wonderful community of Rosebud-loving listeners, go to www. patreon.com/rosebud. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone and I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh. Anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Everybody, listen up.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed and the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for watch or iPad required. Addition terms apply for all offers.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  If you've felt stuck trying to lose weight, you're not alone. Enter Weight Loss by Hers. It's designed to support you in reaching your goals. And Hers now offers access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. Even better, with a range of affordable GLP-1 options, Hers makes it simple to find an approach that fits your needs and your budget. If eligible, you'll get a treatment plan personalized to you and unlimited dosage changes as needed. It's weight loss designed to work with your life. Ready to reach your goals? Visit forhers.com/eligible to get personalized, affordable care that gets you. That's F-O-R-H-E-R-S dot com slash eligible. Forhers.com/eligible.

• 1:14Speaker 02

  Weight Loss by Hers is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk AS. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information and restrictions, visit forhers.com.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  I'm Giles Brandreth and this is More Rosebud. Cue the music.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  It's a Tuesday in September, the season of mists and mellow fruitfulness. Who is the poet who gave us that line, Harriet?

• 2:03Speaker 04

  John Keats, ode to autumn.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  Ode to autumn. Whenever I see the word Keats, I see in anagram the word steak.

• 2:12Speaker 04

  Oh, I never thought of it like that, yeah.

• 2:14Speaker 03

  I did a thing of turning poets' names into anagrams, which is how I got toilets from T. S. Eliot.

• 2:19Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  Let's raise our game. This is More Rosebud. It's a Tuesday. It's September. Harriet Jane, my producer and friend, and I, we are in the Rosebud studio on Park Lane at Grosvenor House, and it's lovely to be here.

• 2:35Speaker 04

  It is. We're back. We're so happy to be back.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  We've been away.

• 2:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  We're back.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  Start of a new term.

• 2:40Speaker 03

  And is the start of a new term exhilarating for you or a bit anxious making? How's it for you?

• 2:46Speaker 04

  That's an interesting question because I think September, even when one is an adult, long after school has ended, September's still a watershed moment, isn't it?

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 2:55Speaker 04

  And the stomach churns and there's a sort of feeling in the air of getting a new school uniform and getting serious.

• 3:02Speaker 03

  New things are happening and I've actually decided more than in January, September is when I do a bit of a reset. My wife, Michelle, and I, this week, have started with a new personal trainer.

• 3:14Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  And we thought, well, the family that exercises together maybe stays together because my wife, after nearly 60 years, is saying on a regular basis, actually, haven't we had enough?

• 3:26Speaker 04

  Well, can I just float something? I'm not suggesting this for you and Michelle because I know you're happily married. But is this, I mean, I'm just putting it out there to our lovely listeners and everything. Maybe that's an idea, you know, just before the end. Sorry, Giles.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  And I have to say, before we began recording, she said, Giles, rest assured, there will be no elder abuse during this episode.

• 3:50Speaker 04

  Just before the final chapter, the final countdown.

• 3:53Speaker 03

  The final countdown.

• 3:54Speaker 04

  You just, um, you have a little, you have a break. You just go, okay, let's give ourselves. So I had this thought, which I've, I've actually completely messed this up already and you know why. So I'm a vegetarian, as you know. I had this idea in my head that was when I get to 60, I'm going to have 10 years of eating meat. I'm going to give myself a holiday from vegetarianism for 10 years when I'm 60. And I was really looking forward to that because I still enjoy meat, even though I don't eat it or fish. Actually, as you know, what happened is I got a personal trainer, realized that I really couldn't cope on a vegetarian diet and felt tired and hungry the whole time and a bit weak and got headaches.

• 4:37Speaker 04

  And I have had to start eating more meat already. And I'm not 60, so it hasn't really worked. But I like this idea of maybe fixing a sort of point where you might have a little treat or a break or a holiday. Do you think that could work for marriages?

• 4:53Speaker 03

  Two or three things to say.

• 4:54Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 4:54Speaker 03

  One is you're a generation away from being 60 and my association with you has brought me to fall off the wagon. I was a vegetarian, then a pescatarian, and now I'm with you. I'm this born again vegetarian, which means to be more inclusive. I am eating meat to support you. That's the first thing to say.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  Well, don't blame me for it. And you know, we'll get letters of complaint from people that are committed vegetarians. And I apologize to you, the vegetarians out there. And I also apologize to the animals that have been eaten by me and Giles because I, I still have a pang every time I eat an animal and I think about them and everything, yeah.

• 5:32Speaker 03

  Good. I'm glad you do.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I have a conscience.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  That's good. You know that animals now are being used as donors for parts of the body.

• 5:41Speaker 04

  That's been going on for years. My friend's about to get a pig's

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 5:44Speaker 04

  a valve in her heart.

• 5:46Speaker 03

  Well, a pig's kidney this week has been given to somebody.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  Oh, that's good.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I was thinking I wouldn't mind little bits of squirrel.

• 5:53Speaker 04

  Oh, which bits would you like?

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Well, no, blood transfusion. There's a shortage of people giving blood. And I would quite like some squirrel blood because I was, outside our window, there's a wonderful squirrel at home who is skipping about like nobody's business and I could do with his blood.

• 6:07Speaker 04

  Can I just say, Giles, I think you plus squirrel blood would be a nightmare of manic. And I mean, it's bad enough with normal Giles blood, but yeah.

• 6:19Speaker 03

  So going back to the, my wife deciding after nearly 60 years that maybe it's time for a break.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  There is a school that says that a marriage contract should last seven years and then just be renewed automatically unless you apply for it not to be.

• 6:32Speaker 04

  A bit like home insurance.

• 6:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. Every seven years, you get a chance to break it or may. So people would accept that and they would know that they could get out of it.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, the seven year itch.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  The seven year itch. Anyway, my thought was we would do something together. And what we're doing together is we've got a personal trainer.

• 6:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:49Speaker 03

  Who is coming in, part of the reset is getting a personal trainer in, who's coming twice a week. He's also the personal trainer to Patricia Hodge. That's what gave me the idea. You know, we had Patricia Hodge on the other day on Rosebud, very, very popular episode.

• 7:02Speaker 04

  Doesn't she look amazing?

• 7:03Speaker 03

  She is, she is amazing. I mean, she looks physically fantastic. She's beautiful. She's the same sort of generation as Michelle and me. So I thought, well, let's go to her personal trainer. So he's coming. He's doing it at the moment out in the garden. And so we're having a joint session.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  So it can't be that energetic. What are you doing in the garden?

• 7:24Speaker 03

  What are you doing in the garden? I mean, just because they're not on machines, you go to a

• 7:27Speaker 04

  What are you doing, Giles? Is this serious?

• 7:30Speaker 03

  Very serious.

• 7:30Speaker 04

  What are you doing?

• 7:31Speaker 03

  Boxing, among other things. Yes. Boxing. And hand to eye coordination with very fast balls, large balls, and at the same time, small balls like tennis balls, catching, fielding them at the same time. Oh, yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  Boxing with boxing gloves?

• 7:49Speaker 03

  With boxing gloves, really heavy boxing gloves. It's, what is, I mean, we've only had one session so far.

• 7:56Speaker 04

  That is really good for you, boxing, by the way.

• 7:58Speaker 03

  But essentially what it's about, given our age, it's flexibility and strength. Flexibility, strength, balance.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  Balance, yeah.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  Is what we're working on. The long and the short of it, it's been quite fun doing it together.

• 8:10Speaker 04

  That's so fun. So is Michelle hitting you with boxing gloves?

• 8:14Speaker 03

  Yes, she's hitting the palms of my hands. And I'm hitting the palm of mine's. But we're also doing it against the trainer.

• 8:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  And he is, as we're doing it, he is backing across the garden. So we've got to do it against, we're banging, bang, bang, bang, bang. And as with different, like, and then he drops one hand, hit the other one. It's really tough work.

• 8:32Speaker 04

  Whoa, Giles, is it bringing out a sort of latent boxer in you? Are you, are you channeling your inner?

• 8:39Speaker 03

  Aggression?

• 8:39Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  I don't know. Anyway, that's not all we're doing. We're doing all the usual things, you know, the sitting up and standing down and balancing on one leg and all that kind of thing and running and going backwards and you name it. We're doing all that, push-ups and press-ups and weights. All of that's going on. It's exhausting.

• 8:56Speaker 04

  Sounds absolutely exhausting.

• 8:57Speaker 03

  But by virtue of doing it together, maybe it's a good thing.

• 9:00Speaker 04

  No, that is good.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  So that's one of the resets. Another reset is I'm thinking about finances. I'm going through all my direct debits. I'm paying for things on the television that I haven't ever looked at. You know, channels. So I'm cutting out all that.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Yes. That's good. Cancel any subscriptions you're not using, but obviously not the one to the Rosebud family because you are using that.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  And you are using it. And if you haven't yet joined, it's patreon.com/rosebud.

• 9:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:24Speaker 03

  Only a five for a month.

• 9:25Speaker 04

  It's only $4.99 plus fat.

• 9:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  So I'm cutting back on expensive coffees. In unlikely places.

• 9:31Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  I'm going to be making some economies.

• 9:35Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  I'm not leaving lights on around the house.

• 9:37Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 9:37Speaker 03

  I never did that much anyway, but I'm making sure that people don't.

• 9:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  So it's a little bit more discipline.

• 9:43Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  And I'm starting on a lot of new, exciting projects. So it's been a bit of a reset for me. Has it been a bit of a reset for you?

• 9:51Speaker 04

  Yes, I've started a big project, which is I've, um, we've started landscaping our back garden.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Ooh.

• 9:57Speaker 04

  So we've got the builders in, which I enjoy. I love my builders and I love a project. And I spend, when I've got a project on, I spend loads of time thinking about it and imagining what it'll look like. I really enjoy designing things. In fact, if my career as Rosebud producer ends, which I hope it doesn't, Giles, but if it does, I think I'd be a gardener slash interior designer for a while.

• 10:23Speaker 03

  Nice. I think it's a very good.

• 10:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  I'm afraid it won't end for quite a while because I've also had lots of medical tests this week.

• 10:29Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  Yes, part of the reset, a complete overhaul from top to toe.

• 10:33Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  I can see, I can breathe, I can walk. Well, some of the test results haven't come in yet, but so far, so good. So with a bit of luck, we've got another 20, 30 years of Rosebud ahead.

• 10:45Speaker 04

  Oh, fabulous.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  Um.

• 10:46Speaker 04

  I'll clear the diary.

• 10:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, please do. Now, what are we doing today?

• 10:50Speaker 04

  Well, we're going to start with an email.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  Very good.

• 10:52Speaker 04

  Because, sorry, I think Giles and I both had a cup of, I've had a cup of coffee and Giles has had a cup of tea. So if we're speaking rather quickly, that's why.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  We're being a bit manic.

• 11:01Speaker 04

  I think I'm being a bit manic, yeah.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Well, I tell you.

• 11:03Speaker 04

  Just had an espresso.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  We've, I've had a manic three days.

• 11:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Because we've been away performing, we got back and we stopped performing. I had a kind of, hmm. Well, in fact, you warned me, you said, it's going to be different, Giles, don't ever low. I thought, I'm not going to ever low. So you decided you can do some days in the office, which you did.

• 11:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, to my accounts.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  Accounts, bookkeeping, all of that has to be done, that's life. And I thought, I'm going to be dynamic. I'm going to start on my new book. I'm going to arrange the audio of the current book, which I've been doing. I'm going to be writing lots of fun emails to people about being guests on Rosebud. And I've been very actively involved in my charity that I'm a trustee of, the Queen's Reading Room. I've fanned off all sorts of things there because we've got our lovely weekend at Chatsworth for the Queen's Reading Room coming up. So all sorts of things have been happening. And then I got to today and I thought, oh, am I a bit low? So I think I've been a bit high and then a bit low and a bit high.

• 12:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:05Speaker 03

  So do you think where should we now, more even?

• 12:07Speaker 04

  Is this why you started fantasising about having a squirrel blood transfusion? Which is a sign of a low point, I think.

• 12:14Speaker 03

  I think it is. When you're lying in bed and you're envying the frisky squirrel out there, you think, oh, I, that well. It coincided with me reading about the pig who'd given his kidney to a human.

• 12:26Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 12:26Speaker 03

  And I thought, and there's a blood shortage and there's a squirrel, he's got lots of spare blood.

• 12:30Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know if he has got lots. He's probably got a sort of thimble for it. He'd have to have a whole raft of squirrels, wouldn't you, Giles?

• 12:37Speaker 03

  A little goes a long way with me. So today's a diary day.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  Wait, I'm very, I'm reading an email.

• 12:42Speaker 03

  Oh, good.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  You're going to love, by the way, you're going to love this email, can I say?

• 12:45Speaker 03

  Are we lucky that we're in our fourth year now and people are emailing us?

• 12:49Speaker 04

  We're getting more emails than ever. Before I read this, which is from someone called Darren Lingley. Great name, Darren Lingley. I want to say thank you so much to Marie, who answers and looks through a lot of these emails now. And really couldn't do it without her. Thank you, Marie. Marie's a really good friend of mine as well. And she answers people so kindly and beautifully and has lovely chats with them. And then I sometimes chip into, but it really is helpful.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  And I occasionally chip in as well.

• 13:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, we all chip in.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  I chip into people who belong to the Rosebud family.

• 13:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 03

  And also on Facebook.

• 13:27Speaker 04

  Oh, it's so fun.

• 13:27Speaker 03

  Because there's the Rosebud Reflections page there.

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Brilliant, that.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  All right. So what has Darren got to tell us?

• 13:34Speaker 04

  Dear Harriet and Giles, I put Harriet's name first as I know she enjoys it so much. He says, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  And perhaps he knows how much it irritates me because it should be alphabetical. Giles and Harriet, or indeed Brandreth and Jane, or indeed presenter first, producer second. But no, no, it's dear Harriet and Giles. Okay.

• 13:56Speaker 04

  May I thank you so much for being my workmates for over a year of driving and working around rural Essex and Suffolk in my old transit van. You kindly stepped into my son's shoes, who'd worked with me, but now has sadly fledged from the family nest and business. You both work so hard by keeping the van full of banter, memories and inspiration. You've been amazing help building weirs, river sluices, refurbishing houses, laying patios, engineering structures and forestry work. God, I didn't know we'd been doing all that, Giles.

• 14:32Speaker 03

  Hmm, I'm impressed. Love the idea of dealing with a river sluice.

• 14:35Speaker 04

  Yes. There's no end to your abilities, says Darren. Now, I love this bit, obviously. I have to say how much I love to hear Harriet's voice, so joyous and energising, it melts me. Harriet sweetens the most laborious chores with her silky, seductive and rich tones like Devon cream.

• 14:58Speaker 03

  As the producer, I, if I'd been you, would have said, Giles, I think you should read this letter. Would be more appropriate, particularly since Darren is a bloke. We normally, you read the letters from women and I read the letters from men.

• 15:10Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  But no, no.

• 15:11Speaker 04

  Maybe you should.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  She wanted to read herself. I have to say how much I love to hear Harriet's voice so joyous and energising, it melts me. Harriet sweetens the most laborious chores with her silky, seductive and rich tones like Devon cream. Then he adds as almost as an afterthought, Giles, yours is gorgeous too. Well, that's quite nice.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  At first, you were a guilty secret, not really the thing for the macho outdoor working man's bag. But now I've outed myself as a true rosebuddy, spreading my love of it and converting those unfortunates that haven't had the pleasure. Giles, we did meet briefly at the Colchester Oyster Feast, but I can't remember much as I was having an oyster and Guinness drinking competition with the wonderful Betty Boothroyd.

• 16:00Speaker 03

  Goodness.

• 16:01Speaker 04

  That lady could put them back.

• 16:02Speaker 03

  The former Speaker of the House of Commons.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  I think we both got urged to slow down or leave.

• 16:08Speaker 03

  Ooh.

• 16:08Speaker 04

  Wow, there's a story. My first memory is of a strange hairy spider-like shape lit orange by the moon above. I remember it feeling swaddled tight in my cot. Actually, I was looking at the cat who was sleeping on the faded Perspex roof light in the caravan I grew up in. I've confirmed it with my mum that a cat did sleep on the roof. And I wouldn't have been sleeping in the position after my first birthday. So it seems a very early memory and occasionally appears in my nightmares. The more I listen to Rosebud, the more I realise how much tone and diction of the voice matter in conveying the story.

• 16:49Speaker 04

  The voice is an amazing instrument and you both use it to full effect along with a magnificent selection of guests. Please, can you make an effort to produce more episodes a week? As I'm just about to finish all the past ones and I'm not very good at rationing. I'm off now to re-listen to an old episode just to get me through the torture of work. Many, many thanks, Darren Lingley, Rosebuddy.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  I ought to explain to listeners that we've had a problem with people not writing to us. And therefore I asked Harriet to make up some letters and send them in to herself so she could read them out on the programme. This is clearly one of them.

• 17:30Speaker 04

  Cue hollow laugh from Harriet.

• 17:32Speaker 03

  What a lovely, lovely email, actually.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  I mean, I know I've said this before, but we really do have the best listeners in the business. I mean, what a great email.

• 17:43Speaker 03

  But also what a fascinating early memory.

• 17:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. And plus he'd been in an oyster and Guinness drinking competition with Betty Boothroyd. I mean, that's a whole, I think we need to get Darren on Rosebud.

• 17:54Speaker 03

  Well, or maybe bits from his diary.

• 17:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:57Speaker 03

  So if people want to write to us, please do. The address is very simple, it is?

• 18:01Speaker 04

  Hello at rosebudpodcast.com.

• 18:02Speaker 03

  It's diary time and we've reached 1979.

• 18:07Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  This is for people who are new to Rosebud, just joined us in our fourth year. I, since the beginning, have been reading from my diary, which I kept from the 1950s onwards. I'm now, oh gosh, about 31 years of age and I've got two or three children and I'm living in London. Well, you'll discover more. Should I read some of the diary?

• 18:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think we should, Giles.

• 18:41Speaker 02

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• 19:25Speaker 02

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• 19:40Speaker 05

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• 21:14Speaker 03

  It's the Saturday, the 5th of May, 1979. I'm on the train going to Birmingham for the Midlands finals of the National Scrabble Championships.

• 21:24Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  This is something I'd founded a few years before.

• 21:27Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 21:28Speaker 03

  It is the end of an historic week. It began with the completion of our purchase of the house next door. We are now the proud owners of numbers 1 and 2, Camden Hill Gardens. It ended with the election of Britain's first woman Prime Minister. I have the front page of today's paper in front of me. Mrs. Thatcher in number 10. Heath in running as Foreign Secretary. She has a majority of 43, enough to see her through five years and enough, I'd have thought, for her not to include Heath in her team if she doesn't want to. "I feel a sense of change and an aura of calm," she announced from the steps of Downing Street. "The dignity of office began to work from that moment," according to The Telegraph.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  Hmm, is that what she said? "I feel a sense of change and an aura of calm."

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  That's a rather amazing thing to say.

• 22:20Speaker 03

  Hmm, it is interesting.

• 22:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  And if you met her, she was actually always quite calm, quite sort of centered.

• 22:28Speaker 04

  You need to be in that job, don't you?

• 22:30Speaker 03

  Imagine.

• 22:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  Next headline, Callahan generous in defeat. He was. I watched him on the box. He said it was a tremendous moment in our country's history to have our first female Prime Minister. He's right.

• 22:43Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 22:44Speaker 03

  Thorpe unbowed. Jeremy Bunny's Thorpe was trounced in North Devon. What happens to him now is anybody's guess. Noel, this is my friend Noel Davis. Noel is very clear on the subject. Buggery, he virtually invented it, that poor Marion Harwood. Marion Harwood was Jeremy Thorpe's long-suffering wife.

• 23:05Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  And indeed, she stood by him.

• 23:07Speaker 04

  Gosh.

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. Thursday, the 7th of June, 1979. Today are the first elections in Britain for the European Assembly. I shall be going to vote in a moment. First, I shall try to encapsulate yesterday. I'm having to record the events of 6th of June on the morning after the night before for reasons that will become apparent. I began the day at Simpsons in Piccadilly, having my beard shaved off. The beard was not a success. I shall try one again.

• 23:38Speaker 04

  Sorry, Giles, can I just interrupt you? Just a bit of info about the beard, please.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  Well, I thought I might. Coming into my 30s, I might look a bit macho with a beard.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 23:49Speaker 03

  Actually, I think I grew the beard to find out if I could.

• 23:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:52Speaker 03

  Because not everybody can.

• 23:53Speaker 04

  No.

• 23:53Speaker 03

  Have you seen the photographs of me with a beard?

• 23:55Speaker 04

  Maybe, yeah.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  I'll, I'll.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  Yes, I think you sent me one, yeah. So, how long did you have it? How was it easy to grow? Just give me some.

• 24:02Speaker 03

  It was very easy to grow. It was quite bushy.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  Alarmingly easy.

• 24:06Speaker 03

  It became then a bore to trim, to maintain.

• 24:09Speaker 04

  It was bushy?

• 24:10Speaker 03

  It was a big, bushy beard.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Oh, dear.

• 24:12Speaker 03

  Exactly. And eating food, drinking soup, that was not attractive.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  And how long did you have this bore?

• 24:18Speaker 03

  Oh, I suppose a few months.

• 24:20Speaker 04

  And what was Michelle's take on it?

• 24:23Speaker 03

  I don't recall. I don't think she was drawn to it particularly. She tolerated it. She's a very tolerant person.

• 24:31Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 24:31Speaker 03

  I wonder, actually, if she even noticed. Is that a possibility?

• 24:35Speaker 04

  Well.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  I don't know. But I didn't go back to it.

• 24:38Speaker 04

  No.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Well, where are you on beards? Do you like a beard?

• 24:41Speaker 04

  I don't dislike a beard. No, I think they really suit some people. Yeah, and, um.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  What about physical contact with a beard?

• 24:47Speaker 04

  Don't, don't think I mind it. I'm not sure. I've, I'm actually not sure. I've had a huge amount of it, thinking about it. Uh, I had a boyfriend who had a beard for a while.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  What about a moustache without the beard? That's a bit odd, isn't it?

• 25:02Speaker 04

  Love a moustache.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  Oh, do you?

• 25:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, a sort of First World War officer moustache. I'm not sure I've ever really seen anyone with this moustache, but in my head.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  Outside the movies, yeah.

• 25:14Speaker 04

  I think that's wonderfully elegant, yeah. And I could really see myself going for someone who looked like that in the 1920s or, you know, back in those days.

• 25:25Speaker 03

  What about those thin moustaches that people like David Niven and Errol Flynn had?

• 25:29Speaker 04

  Quite a thing to carry off. I'm not sure many men can, but if they can, then they've probably got a lot of je ne sais.

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Do you think I should?

• 25:35Speaker 04

  Lot of riz.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Do you think I should try a moustache now, this late stage?

• 25:38Speaker 04

  No, I think that would look a bit sinister, Giles.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  A late-life moustache?

• 25:41Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 25:42Speaker 03

  That I could twirl?

• 25:43Speaker 04

  No, don't twirl it.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  Well, I, I lost my beard in 1979.

• 25:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  I began the day at Simpsons in Piccadilly, having my beard shaved off. The beard was not a success. I shall try one again. At lunchtime, I performed to the American Petroleum Wives Club at Quaglinos. It went well, my kind of crowd. At 5:00 PM, we took Afra to the doctor. Tonsillitis, but she'll be fine. At 8:00 PM, Michelle and I were due at the Garrick Club to join Noel, that's our friend Noel Davis, and his new friend Martin for dinner. Noel is a newly-elected Garrick Club member. This was his first time entertaining there. It was an important occasion. At the last minute, Michelle decided she couldn't go. Afra was fine, but she didn't feel she could leave her with the babysitter. I went alone.

• 26:33Speaker 03

  As I climbed the Garrick Club stairs and reached the hallway, I heard Noel's voice. He was in the dining room, giving instructions to the waitress. He wanted the table setting just so. I found him and broke the news. Michelle can't make it. He coped well, shrugged his shoulders, and instructed the waitress to reset the table. "Where's Martin?" I asked. Parking the car. We went upstairs to the bar and quickly worked our way through a bottle of champagne. Noel was fidgety, not as funny as usual, and kept looking out of the window anxiously onto Garrick Street. We embarked on a second bottle of champagne. There was no sign of Martin. At 9:30, the head waiter appeared to press us to take our table for dinner.

• 27:18Speaker 03

  We did as we were told. Conversation was desultory, but the drinking was steady. Noel had ordered some fine wines, a petit Chablis to get us started, followed by an outstanding Chambolle Mucigny. At about 10:40, as we were silently draining our glasses, Martin suddenly appeared. Noel barely acknowledged the boy as he sat down at our table. Instead, Noel managed to catch the eye of Laurence Olivier. Yes, Laurence Olivier, looking quite shrunken and frail, was sitting at the head of the communal club table in the center of the room. Noel nodded to his lordship and then blew him a kiss.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Olivier smiled sweetly and raised his hand to catch the kiss. He clasped it between his palms and brought it briefly to his mouth. He opened his hands and gently blew the kiss back to Noel.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  A glass of port, I think, don't you? Said Noel. We got to our feet. Noel led the way, taking my arm, ignoring Martin entirely. He signed the bill and took me into the hallway. We found our place in the snug beneath the stairs. We sat side by side on the leather sofa, drinking port, while Martin stood silently looking on. Noel was now back on song, but performing entirely for my benefit. As we sat there, we watched the passing scene. Familiar faces came and went. Noel addressed warm words to them all. Martin, he continued to ignore. At one stage, he potted off to find a club servant to recharge our glasses while I went to the loo. As I returned, Noel caught me by the sleeve and pulled me across the hallway.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Advancing towards us were two familiar figures in evening dress, Sir Richard Attenborough and Earl Mountbatten of Burma. Yes, breathed Noel happily, the two dickies together at last. He pulled me across the great men's path and affected an elaborate introduction. May I present Mr Gyles Brandreth, who has contributed so much to charity in this country? The two dickies shook my hand and moved on. Noel was suddenly elated. We're going dancing, he announced, and together we tripped down the stairs of the Garrick Club, where, as we reached the street, a huge limousine appeared. As we reached the bottom step, the doors of the limousine swung open and out of the car stepped Yul Brynner.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  At once, without a moment's hesitation, Noel fell to his knees on the pavement, yanking me down with him, offered a deep salam and cried, Welcome to England, oh king of Siam.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  We ended the evening in a nightclub called Heaven. It is under the arches at Cheltenham Cross, opposite the Players Theatre. The boy waiters wore makeup, silk shorts, roller skates and nothing else. Eventually, I don't quite know when, I found a taxi and came home. I had the hiccups. I climbed the stairs and fell onto the bed, fully clothed. I did not sleep well. I have no idea what happened to Martin.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  Oh, what a night, Giles.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  And I think it's the only time in my life I remember being drunk.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  I mean, that, that is crazy.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  It was a crazy evening.

• 30:40Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  But it was a, clearly it was a memorable night.

• 30:42Speaker 04

  So why was he so cross with Martin?

• 30:44Speaker 03

  Because Martin was his new boyfriend.

• 30:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  Martin said he was parking the car. Martin didn't shut for a couple of hours, so where had Martin gone?

• 30:50Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  Exactly, it was Martin, exactly. Had Martin been offered a little bit of cruising through Soho? This was a little love match between Noel and young Martin.

• 30:59Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  So Noel was wanting to show off Martin, Martin didn't appear, so, but anyway. An exciting night, Laurence Olivier, Earl Mountbatten of Burma, Sir Richard Attenborough and Yul Brynner, all in one night.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  Crumbs.

• 31:11Speaker 03

  And then going off to a gay nightclub.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  Gosh.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  Where all the waiters.

• 31:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 03

  Were just boys in little silk shorts.

• 31:15Speaker 04

  Wow, it's a, all the makings of a classic Gyles Brandreth story.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  Do you see the truth of June nineteen seventy nine? John Wayne has died aged seventy two. Pa says he will die at seventy one. He says it because that's what a fortune teller told him years ago on the front at Margate. I wish she hadn't. These things can become self fulfilling prophecies. I'm now giving the parents one hundred pounds per month. Hope it helps.

• 31:44Speaker 04

  Oh, that's good, Giles.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  We had a very jolly dinner with George and Sophie Brown tonight. It was the usual stuff. George Brown had been Foreign Secretary under Hattler.

• 31:54Speaker 04

  I remember.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  His government.

• 31:55Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  It was the usual stuff. Wilson was a schemer. Mary Wilson is lovely. The Kennedys were my friends. I should have been Prime Minister, we all know that, from George. Oh, George, do shut up, from Sophie. It was the usual stuff, except that George was on the wagon and wouldn't be put off his stride. I'm not the only one who says I should have been Prime Minister, he insisted. That's what the people think. Remember the other night at that dinner at the Garrick Club? When a complete stranger came up to me and said, out of the blue, you are the best Prime Minister we never had. Sophie scoffed. The man was drunk, George, and so was his friend. I saw them both in the street afterwards, sprawled out on the pavement, completely drunk, the pair of them.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  It was me and Noel.

• 32:41Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  But clearly she had no idea, and of course, I said nothing.

• 32:45Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 32:46Speaker 03

  The daughter Pat was there, it was a cosy evening. George wasn't drinking, but he made sure everybody else was, trundling round the sitting room, serving champagne or gin and tonic from a little drinks trolley. It amuses me how bourgeois are the lives of my socialist friends. I'm doing a book on great oratory with George. We're calling it The Voice of History. Of those he's heard, he ranks Churchill and Anar and Bevan as the most formidable. Macmillan, he says, was a complete phony, all histrionics and ham acting. He says the single most brilliant speaker of his lifetime was Professor Harold Lasky,

• 33:27Speaker 03

  who was an academic and I think he was the chairman of the Labour Party just after the Second World War. Anyway, he says the single most brilliant speaker of his lifetime was Professor Harold Lasky, who broke all the rules of public speaking, delivering every address as a lecture, with a minimum of movement, one hand fixed on his lapel, the other locked in his jacket pocket. The voice creating almost monotonous, but the content, logic, wit and presentation overwhelming.

• 33:55Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 33:56Speaker 03

  Lasky sounds to me to be in the same tradition as Enoch Powell.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Hmm, how interesting.

• 34:01Speaker 03

  I showed George something intriguing I'd come across. The Times correspondent's reaction to Abraham Lincoln's Great Gettysburg Address. The ceremony was rendered ludicrous by some of the sallies of that poor President Lincoln. Anything more dull and commonplace, it wouldn't be easy to imagine. Isn't that intriguing?

• 34:23Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 34:24Speaker 03

  It's one of the great speeches of all time.

• 34:25Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  And the man from the Times thought it dull and commonplace.

• 34:28Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  And I put here in brackets in my diary, I don't think journalists realise how much they are despised, and not just by politicians.

• 34:38Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 34:39Speaker 03

  Four score and seven years ago, our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new nation. It's matchless, but intriguingly, even Lincoln was disappointed at the time. His immediate verdict, that speech fell on the audience like a wet blanket. I am distressed about it. I ought to have prepared it with more care.

• 35:02Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 35:03Speaker 03

  That is extraordinary because it was, it is, one of the great speeches reckoned to be of all time.

• 35:08Speaker 04

  But is it only a great speech in retrospect?

• 35:11Speaker 03

  And maybe when you see it in print. Well, clearly it wasn't a great speech at the time.

• 35:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  The newspapers didn't think much of it, or at least one didn't, and the orator himself didn't.

• 35:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 35:19Speaker 03

  But there's a film called Ruggles of Red Gap, in which Charles Lawton, a nineteen thirties film, performs the whole speech.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 35:26Speaker 03

  And it is mesmerising.

• 35:28Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  It's a wonderful.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  So it was a good speech.

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Oh, combination of words and ideas. Wednesday, the twentieth of June nineteen seventy nine. A happy day, sunny and busy. We have acquired rights in Popeye, Flash Gordon and Felix the Cat. I was then running, Harriet, in business with Michelle, my wife, where we were doing publishing and inventing games and acquiring rights and characters to exploit in different ways.

• 35:57Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  I spent the morning devising interesting ways in which to exploit them, puzzle books, diaries and so on. I then went off to the Evening Standard lunch at the Hyde Park Hotel. This was the hotel where, as a child with Pa, I saw Randolph Churchill climbing up the steps. Well, today, I sat with another of the Churchill offspring, Mary Soames, Churchill's daughter. She was charming and very happy to talk about her parents. Her father was clearly her great hero. Even when he was an old man, she loved to sit and listen to him talk. He hated having to go to bed. After dinner, Churchill would sit at the dining room table late into the evening, lighting another cigar, demanding another brandy and telling another story from his long and incredible life.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  Mary, his daughter, would sit enraptured. Her mother would look reprovingly at the clock and say, Winston, it's gone midnight. Churchill would then eye the clock himself and rumble, command the moment to remain. Mary told me that her mother had owned a marble cast of her father's hand, made after his death. His hand was quite small and delicate, surprisingly so. She said that her mother cherished the cast. It meant that she could go on holding his hand even after he had gone. Also at our table, Christopher Soames, genial, large, jaws wobbling,

• 37:22Speaker 03

  and Victor Matthews and Jocelyn Stephens, chief executive and managing director of The Standard and The Express. These two, one rough, one smooth, were wonderful to watch. Their self-confidence, the sense that they owned all that they surveyed, that they were masters of everything, especially things the rest of us knew nothing of, was breathtaking. Thought for the day, sent to me by Emlyn Williams. I seem to spend many of my days and most of my evenings avoiding the temptation to take Sarkis perilous advice. The art of social behaviour is to know exactly where to stop and to go a bit further. It's not always easy.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  Well, I was leading a pretty privileged life, wasn't I? Sitting with the children of Winston Churchill. And I'm still leading a pretty privileged life because the grandson of Winston Churchill, the actual son of Mary and Christopher Somes, Nicholas Somes, was on Rosebud.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  I know. And can I say that that quotation of Winston Churchill that he says at the dinner table, command the moment to remain.

• 38:31Speaker 03

  Great lines, isn't it?

• 38:32Speaker 04

  I think that's one of the most beautiful. I don't know why it's really resonated with me. I love it. I think about it a lot. And it's made me feel as if Winston Churchill is a real person who I'd have loved to have met. And I love that idea of spending time after dinner, not rushing, not letting the table be cleared too quickly. We always make the mistake in my family of clearing the table too quickly. Leon is a terrible one for clearing the table. Before, I have had the chance to-

• 39:05Speaker 03

  Even finish your mouthful.

• 39:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, and to just sit and be. And my parents are good sitters and beers at the dinner table. They sometimes sit at the dinner table for three hours.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  We want the candle guttering. We want another glass of wine.

• 39:18Speaker 04

  So they sit and then they do the quick crossword. This is why my daughter Belle loves going there so much, because after dinner, my dad, who she knows as Papa, gets the Guardian quick crossword, not a difficult one, just the quick one. And they do it as a family. And Belle always knows lots of the answers. And Papa affects to be incredibly impressed. I think he is impressed, but he says things like, Belle, you're so clever, you know? And Belle loves that because it makes her feel a million dollars. And they do this for an hour and then they do the word search or, you know, the simple puzzles. But they have fun and it goes on till ten o'clock and then they all go to bed.

• 40:02Speaker 04

  And I love that. And I want to try and make it happen in my house, but I never seem to be able to.

• 40:11Speaker 03

  Well, you must use-

• 40:12Speaker 04

  And I should just say, command the moment to remain.

• 40:13Speaker 03

  You should. Clearly you remember that phrase because I must have told you this story before.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  You have, yeah. And you said, you mentioned it in the interview with Nicholas Somes, too.

• 40:20Speaker 03

  Ah.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I love it. I think it's very evocative.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  And I think over the years at home, I have said it when an evening seems to be coming to the end. In the old days, we used to give proper dinner parties.

• 40:32Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 40:33Speaker 03

  Haven't done so much recently, but you know, with eight, twelve, sometimes more people around the table with people telling stories or playing games.

• 40:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  And you do want it not to stop.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  Command the moment to remain. Okay. Monday, the ninth of July, nineteen seventy-nine. Lunch with Kenneth Williams at the Pom d'Amour. He is so funny, if not totally easy. He arrived all demure and buttoned up, keeping himself to himself, hiding under a hat so as not to be recognised. Then, over lunch, he began telling stories so loudly that no one in the restaurant, or possibly within one mile of the restaurant, could have had any doubt as to who was there. He's agreed to do the book. He loves my title, Acid Drops. He thinks it's entirely right for him. It is. And it'll be fun to do. I like him, despite the non-stop smoking.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  He's obsessed with his health, his bowels mostly, and money, his lack of it, and the amount of tax he has to pay on the little he does earn. The maximum he got for any of the Carry On films was five thousand pounds.

• 41:41Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 41:42Speaker 03

  He has a small cast of characters who people his stories. Baxter, Stanley Baxter, Gordon, Gordon Jackson, and Mags, Maggie Smith. He doesn't explain who these people are. He just launches into a story and expects you to catch up. I can't believe there is a funnier anecdotalist in the land.

• 42:00Speaker 04

  Oh, wonderful. Lucky you, Giles.

• 42:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. Lucky me to have that friendship.

• 42:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Nina, our former nanny, is coming to tea. We're slightly dreading it, but we know it's the right thing to do.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Monday, the twenty-seventh of August, nineteen seventy-nine. We return today from Corfu to the news of the murder of Lord Mountbatten. Horrible. Corfu was wonderful. We'll do it again. I thought four weeks would be too long, but it worked, got better and better. Somerset Marm, C P Snow, Anthony Trollope, and William Makepeace Thackeray were our good companions. I am bronzed. Michelle is beautiful. The children are content. The post awaiting us is horrendous, so much to be dealt with and too few cheques. The sun in Corfu was dazzling. Here, it's sunny and our house is lovely, but it all feels a bit cramped and dark after

• 42:59Speaker 03

  our island idyll. And the news from Ireland is truly terrible.

• 43:04Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 43:05Speaker 03

  That was horrific.

• 43:06Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 43:08Speaker 04

  Well, India Hicks told us about that, didn't she?

• 43:10Speaker 03

  Yes, it's true. And you're going to Corfu quite soon.

• 43:13Speaker 04

  Only for a week, though, not a month. I notice you give yourself a month's holiday back in those days. No such-

• 43:20Speaker 03

  We're moving on from that because-

• 43:21Speaker 04

  Luxury is allowed, yeah.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  I want people to know that part of our New Year regime at Rosebud is proper working hours and proper holidays.

• 43:31Speaker 04

  Hmm, a month. I'm lobbying for that. I love a month.

• 43:34Speaker 03

  The month is guaranteed.

• 43:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  You have a guaranteed month of holiday this year, Harriet. I want you to enjoy it.

• 43:39Speaker 04

  All in one go.

• 43:40Speaker 03

  Oh, all in one go, if you wanted.

• 43:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  Then you're having five weeks because you're already booked in this week in Corfu. So five weeks of holiday have been guaranteed to Harriet. You can monitor this. I want you to know, good working practices are very much part and parcel of the Rosebud ethos.

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• 46:41Speaker 03

  Monday the 10th of September 1979. An amusing lunch with the engaging Dr Magnus Pike. Does that name ring a bell?

• 46:48Speaker 04

  It does, I think you've met him before, yeah.

• 46:52Speaker 03

  He was a nutritionist, a scientist, and he was a big media personality. I mean, over the years, I created books for so many people. I mean, Magnus Pike I, Richard Briers, Michael Caine, Henry Cooper, Charlie Drake, John Inman, Frankie Hart, Laddie Grayson, people of that generation, you know, Spike Milligan, Dudley Moore, Patrick Moore, Derek Nemo, Leonard Rossiter, you name it. I did books with them, Ned Sherrin, Donald Sindon, Tommy Steele, Richard Whiteley, Barbara Windsor, Mike Yarwood. So, we pioneered this idea of the celebrity book, the company that Michelle and I ran, which was, which was fun.

• 47:22Speaker 04

  Was Magnus Pike a sort of Michael Mosley figure?

• 47:25Speaker 03

  He wa— well, he was more a crazy scientist.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  And he had waving arms like a windmill.

• 47:32Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, I remember, he has come up before, yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  I went to his house in St Peter's Square, W2. It is airy and full of clocks. He was reading Pride and Prejudice. He rereads Jane Austen every year. I've reached that age. He told me not to worry about insomnia. You won't die of it, people don't. If you can't sleep, get up and do something, you'll fall asleep eventually. We went round the corner for an Indian meal. In the street, as we walked, he waved his arms about exactly as he does on television, but possibly a little more ostentatiously. I think he likes to be recognised. Michelle asks, why doesn't he get his teeth fixed? Wednesday the 26th of September 1979.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  I went by train to Poole in Dorset, to the Arts Centre, to see Kenneth Williams in The Undertaking, a lugubrious, wordy, and largely unintelligible play by Kenneth Baxter. It's set in a morgue, and the atmosphere onstage and in the auditorium is appropriately funereal. Kenneth can't decide whether it's a profound work of genius or a load of old cobblers. His performance is very mannered, cheeks sucked in, buttocks held tight, paragraphs spat out like machine gun fire, with incredibly elongated vowel thrown in every now and then for no good reason. The audience, hoping for carry-on hearse, is sorely disappointed. Kenneth seems resigned to the play being a failure.

• 49:01Speaker 03

  All I do now is flops. His mood swings are quite exhausting. Tomorrow, I'm seeing Barbara Windsor. Kenneth loves Barbara and Barbara loves Kenny, I love him to bits. The joy with Barbara is that she is always the same, jolly, and she sees the best in everyone. We were driving back together from Norwich once, and we came into London through the East End, and we passed the Blind Beggar, the Cray Twins pub. They wasn't bad boys, Giles, not really, they loved their mum. But weren't they murderers, Barbara? Didn't they kill people? Oh, you'd be quite safe with them, darling, they only ever kill their own. Wednesday the 3rd of October 1979.

• 49:43Speaker 03

  I've come to Yorkshire, where the Yorkshire Police have just launched a one million pound campaign to find the Yorkshire Ripper. He claimed his 10th victim here in Bradford a month ago. At lunch, the Archbishop of York, Stuart Blanch, doesn't give a lot away, said a prayer for the victims. After lunch, I made them laugh. The James Herriot it was, who made them smile. Do you remember James Herriot?

• 50:09Speaker 04

  Oh, of course, all creatures great and small.

• 50:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, he made them feel good about themselves. There is a lesson here. I didn't find him that interesting or remarkable, but the audience loved him. There are just some folk who are loved. The last of these literary lunches I did was with David Attenborough. They love him too, warmed to him and respect him in a way they never will with his brother Richard, for example. That's interesting.

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 50:39Speaker 03

  And it is interesting, here we are, 50 and more years later, and David Attenborough is still loved, that he was loved then.

• 50:48Speaker 04

  Yes, I think it's got to do with, among other things, authenticity. That's what people want, Giles.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  And they doubt they got that from James Herriot?

• 50:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, I imagine you do, yeah, because he's someone with real expertise, who's speaking with genuine knowledge, passion, and from the heart about what he knows, being a vet. And also, he's speaking to his people, isn't he, because he's in Yorkshire, and he's a Yorkshire vet, yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  And I just made them laugh.

• 51:14Speaker 04

  No, no, I think you have authenticity.

• 51:16Speaker 03

  That's very sweet.

• 51:17Speaker 04

  You're a national treasure, Giles, what more can you ask?

• 51:19Speaker 03

  Moving swiftly on.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  Moving swiftly on, darling.

• 51:21Speaker 03

  Wednesday the 10th of October 1979. Reginald Bozenkett has resigned from ITN.

• 51:27Speaker 04

  What a name.

• 51:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, he was a journalist, best known as a newsreader for ITN, and you'll see, the next line gives it all away. The drink has finally got to him. We shall all miss the slurring and askew if toupee. Coffee with Leonard Rossiter.

• 51:43Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  Aren't I lucky, the life I'm leading? Coffee with Leonard Rossiter at his little house in Billing Road, SW10. He crackles with tension, his nervous energy is alarming. We're going to do a book with him on sarcasm. All he has to do is appear on the cover and cash the cheque. I think he's happy about that. I left him preparing for a game of squash. I would not have wanted to be his opponent.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  Sorry, can I just interrupt? What was he like? I mean, I think he's a fabulous actor.

• 52:12Speaker 03

  He is one of the greatest actors. To watch Rising Damp, that still works today.

• 52:17Speaker 04

  It's amazing.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  Reginald Perrin.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  So was he like that?

• 52:20Speaker 03

  He was like that, that tension in the air, that energy, that nervous energy, that about to break through, the sense of danger and—

• 52:27Speaker 04

  Like he could snap at any moment.

• 52:29Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And he played those sorts— onstage, he played those sorts of parts as well.

• 52:35Speaker 04

  John Cleese has that energy too, doesn't he? But it's a bit different. But, oh my goodness, I love, I love Rigsby in Rising Damp.

• 52:43Speaker 03

  I think this eventually killed him, you know.

• 52:45Speaker 04

  It would have done, especially if he's playing squash as well. Heart Attack City.

• 52:50Speaker 03

  He was, he was Heart Attack City.

• 52:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  And you felt you might catch the heart attack just being with him.

• 52:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, gosh, how amazing. So you wrote a book with him, oh, you'd write the book and he'd put his name on it?

• 53:02Speaker 03

  I basically, the sarcasm, I don't think he even looked at it.

• 53:04Speaker 04

  No, great idea for a book, what, what was it about?

• 53:07Speaker 03

  Well, it was about the art of, the art and craft of sarcasm and how to use it. I'm trying to remember what the title was, I'll have to look that up.

• 53:14Speaker 04

  The Lowest Form of Wit.

• 53:15Speaker 03

  That was the title.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  It wasn't.

• 53:18Speaker 03

  That was the title.

• 53:19Speaker 04

  Oh, come on, Giles.

• 53:20Speaker 03

  No, that was the— you would think we could have done better than that, no, I think it was called The Lowest Form of Wit.

• 53:25Speaker 04

  I have to say, if you were running this publishing company now, you'd be straight on the phone to me, saying, Harriet, can you run this publishing company for me?

• 53:33Speaker 03

  I would be.

• 53:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I'd be there and I'd just be churning out these titles.

• 53:36Speaker 03

  Instead, I was on the phone—

• 53:37Speaker 04

  The Lowest Form of Wit, there you go, done, Giles.

• 53:40Speaker 03

  We did a lot of those books.

• 53:41Speaker 04

  I love, I have to say, I love a bit of sarcasm, I think it's my only form of humour.

• 53:45Speaker 03

  Let's begin our next diary session with a sarcasm slam.

• 53:51Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 53:52Speaker 03

  Because you are the mistress of sarcasm.

• 53:54Speaker 04

  I now can't think how to do it, now you've said this, I can't think what to start with.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  Well, it's sort of, it's, it's being sort of deprecating, isn't it?

• 54:01Speaker 04

  Dry put-downs.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is, basically, it's dry put-downs.

• 54:04Speaker 04

  It is the lowest form of wit, yeah.

• 54:06Speaker 03

  And it is. I left him preparing for a game of squash. I would not have wanted to be his opponent. Spent the rest of the day with Kenneth Williams, working on acid drops. Clive, who was one of our editors, has prepared a load of raw material, and Kenneth and I are now going through it, quote by quote, Kenneth retelling the stories in his own words and adding some extras along the way. One he came up with that I hadn't heard before. Bernard Shaw and a fellow music critic at a concert. The friend says of the string quartet, these four have been playing together for 12 years. Shaw, surely, we've been here longer than that.

• 54:43Speaker 04

  I love that.

• 54:45Speaker 03

  That's a good quip, isn't it?

• 54:46Speaker 04

  I love it, yeah.

• 54:48Speaker 03

  Kenneth smoked a complete pack of cigarettes and then went out to buy some more, and he doesn't want to have lunch, and when I do, he gets ratty and says, don't you want to work then? He wasn't always easy, I have to tell you, Harriet, but he was very funny. Sunday the 28th of October 1979. A quite wonderful evening, followed by a quite ghastly morning. Last night, we went to see the Peter Schaffer play Amadeus at the National Theatre. It is as good as everybody says. Intelligent, moving, beautifully staged by Peter Hall. This morning, I've been taking part in a ludicrous football match organised by Jonathan Rouse. He was a person who presented something called Candid Camera when I was a child.

• 55:33Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, I know that show.

• 55:34Speaker 03

  To promote his book of Queen Victoria paintings. He had personalities, vaguely known, barely known suckers like me. This is actually, by the way, before the word celebrity was used. People were known as personalities. You were a TV or a radio personality.

• 55:50Speaker 04

  I remember that.

• 55:51Speaker 03

  You weren't a celebrity. He had personalities, vaguely known, barely known suckers like me, and friends of his dressed as Queen Victoria. And in a corner of Hyde Park, we kicked a football about for the benefit of a very small band of press photographers. I took Bennett and kept him on my shoulders throughout the game for comfort and security. Why did I go? People think I'm garrulous, but I'm not. I don't like parties. I like going to the theatre to see an intelligent play and then having supper à deux with my wife. As a child, from one of my favourite books, the Faber Book of Comic Verse, I learnt this poem. I never understood it properly until today.

• 56:35Speaker 03

  I wish I loved the human race, I wish I loved its silly face, I wish I liked the way it walks, I wish I liked the way it talks, and when I'm introduced to one, I wish I thought, what jolly fun.

• 56:50Speaker 04

  Well Giles, that may be a rare insight into your true personality.

• 56:58Speaker 03

  Is that an example of sarcasm?

• 57:00Speaker 04

  No, no, no, I'm, I'm serious. So.

• 57:04Speaker 03

  Well, I think.

• 57:04Speaker 04

  Is that true of you now?

• 57:06Speaker 03

  No, I don't think it is. I don't think it is. I, I think, I think I was awkward in company. And actually, we have many people on Rosebud who are like this, particularly performers, who we discover on Rosebud, essentially reasonably shy, reticent people.

• 57:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  And use performance.

• 57:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:25Speaker 03

  Stories as a kind of carapace to protect themselves.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  And I suppose I, like a lot of people, would a bit like that.

• 57:35Speaker 03

  I just felt cross with myself that day that I'd been lulled into going to help somebody with a publicity stunt. I didn't really know them very well. I felt I was making a deal of myself.

• 57:44Speaker 04

  Well, and you hate sport, so playing football is quite confronting and challenging for you. And that's why you put Bennett on your shoulders. But, I mean, it's interesting to me that you are saying you don't like being in a group because you clearly do like having dinner parties and hearing people tell funny stories and joining in.

• 58:04Speaker 03

  I think I have changed. I, I mean, I think.

• 58:05Speaker 04

  But you clearly did back then, I think.

• 58:07Speaker 03

  We loved dinner parties.

• 58:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  Because we had people that we knew.

• 58:11Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 58:11Speaker 03

  In a setting that was congenial. But I think throwing myself into a crowd became challenging. Maybe it became easier as the years went by and I was appearing on television much more when people already knew who I was.

• 58:28Speaker 04

  Hmm. You didn't have to prove yourself.

• 58:30Speaker 03

  Didn't need to introduce yourself either. You could say hello, I'm Giles. And they'd say, oh, I know.

• 58:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:34Speaker 03

  But actually, when I became an MP, I spent all my time meeting strangers.

• 58:40Speaker 04

  And you get better at it.

• 58:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, you do get better at it.

• 58:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:43Speaker 03

  And also, at this stage, I think I'm already working a bit with the Duke of Edinburgh.

• 58:47Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 58:47Speaker 03

  And I observed him, the late Duke of Edinburgh, being so good with people, just going up and just saying something.

• 58:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:54Speaker 03

  And being less self-conscious and more interested in other people.

• 58:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:57Speaker 03

  But this gives you a flavour of who I was at the beginning of my 30s.

• 59:00Speaker 04

  Hmm. Nice. Very interesting.

• 59:02Speaker 03

  Nearly at the end of the year, just a few more entries. Thursday, the 1st of November, 1979. The Old House, Wickham, Hampshire. The government has announced £3,500 million in spending cuts and increased prescription charges. Our new Prime Minister, Mrs Thatcher, means business. And we mean to come here to the Old House again and to keep up our practice of taking just two glasses of champagne before dinner. We got the idea from a novel by C.P. Snow. Last night, when we were having dinner, Mr Skipwith, the proprietor of the Old House Hotel, came to our table and said, there's a young gentleman to see you. Bennett

• 59:47Speaker 03

  had come downstairs, starkers, and presented himself at reception. This is a lovely hotel. The Skipwiths are lovely people, and the Pom Dofinoise are a reason for living. Another reason for living. Last night, after our picnic in the New Forest, we took the children to Salisbury and parked in the cathedral close. They were exhausted and lay higgledy-piggledy fast asleep on the back seat, but we were wide awake.

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  Ah, dear me.

• 1:00:22Speaker 03

  But we were wide awake and saw the sun setting on the honey-coloured stone of Salisbury Cathedral. I don't believe I've ever seen anything more beautiful. Tuesday, the 6th of November, 1979. The advent of Margaret Thatcher has been wonderful for everyone, whether they realise it or not, except for one man, and he voted for her. I had lunch today with Mike Yarwood, the impressionist. He's very sweet, but shy and rather dull, and he has a problem. He can't do Mrs Thatcher. He is Edward Heath, he's Harold Wilson, he's Dennis Healy, all masterly, but all now, yes, it is men. He's really concerned that Mrs T's

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  success will be his undoing. I tried to persuade him to do some of his characters for me at lunch, because, sorry to say, when he's himself, it's as if no one's there.

• 1:01:18Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  Oh my. Well, that's a funny note on which to end the year.

• 1:01:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  Well, bear in mind that these aren't the totality of my diaries. These are just edited highlights, golden moments, including clearly, and I found it quite affecting, a very golden moment.

• 1:01:33Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:01:34Speaker 03

  I'd forgotten that. If I was taking part in Rosebud and you were asking me the questions and you got to the moment of joy, if I'd remembered this, which I didn't until I'd read it in the diary, I think this would have been a moment of joy.

• 1:01:48Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:01:49Speaker 03

  Back in November, 1979, in Salisbury Cathedral Close, the children higgledy-piggledy, fast asleep on the back street, and Michelle and me watching the sun setting on Salisbury Cathedral, which I still often visit, and which is still wonderful.

• 1:02:05Speaker 04

  Beautiful, yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  Did you ever have a hotel in your life that you and Leon went to where there was perfect Pom Dofinoise or a sort of magical place? We went to this place several years running.

• 1:02:15Speaker 04

  Oh, right. No, I don't think we've, we have had a place that we go to a lot in Suffolk, but it's not a hotel. It's a place owned by our friends and it, and it's a, you know, a place that you self-cater. But no, I do love hotels, but I haven't gone back to a hotel a lot, a lot of times. But I'd love to. Yeah, I love hotels. Yeah, love Pom Dofinoise as well. Yeah.

• 1:02:41Speaker 03

  It's not good now on my low carb diet.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  Oh, no.

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  I've got to start that again.

• 1:02:44Speaker 04

  It's not healthy.

• 1:02:45Speaker 03

  I've got to start that again.

• 1:02:46Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:02:47Speaker 03

  Well, there you are. That's my, that's the end of 1979. We're going to move now into the 1980s. It's almost contemporaneous.

• 1:02:54Speaker 04

  Love the 80s. Do you start wearing shoulder pads?

• 1:02:57Speaker 03

  Maybe I do. Is it, is it the decade of dynasty and all of that?

• 1:03:00Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:01Speaker 03

  Well, I think I do at the beginning. But the 1980s does change everything for me because I then begin appearing on television very regularly.

• 1:03:07Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  So we've got the end of the 70s, the beginning of the era of Margaret Thatcher.

• 1:03:13Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:03:13Speaker 03

  There was a time before Margaret Thatcher.

• 1:03:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Speaker 03

  It's interesting how still she arouses such, I mean, it's, it's 50 years ago.

• 1:03:22Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:03:22Speaker 03

  And people still feel, oh, Margaret Thatcher.

• 1:03:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Speaker 03

  Makes them feel something. It's odd to be one of those people, isn't it?

• 1:03:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, she, she was a real change maker, wasn't she?

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:03:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. Aside from Churchill, she was probably the big one of the 20th century. Yeah.

• 1:03:36Speaker 03

  And she will become eventually a person who appears in the diaries.

• 1:03:39Speaker 04

  Oh, woo-hoo.

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  And eventually in the diaries, I think I get to shake the hand of Churchill because I go for tea with Mary Symes.

• 1:03:45Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  And she produces that cast of her father's hand.

• 1:03:49Speaker 04

  Amazing.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  So it's the life of a lucky person.

• 1:03:52Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:03:53Speaker 03

  You didn't know me then, because you weren't really born then. What do you make of me from reading these diaries?

• 1:04:01Speaker 04

  I think you would have been a really fun person to be with, Giles. And I could have beaten you at football. And I would have enjoyed working with you in your publishing company and coming up with the titles of your books.

• 1:04:13Speaker 03

  I think, Harriet, you would have enjoyed being in the publishing company because, in a sense, it's a bit like how you started. Because when you were beginning, you know, X years ago with Graham Norton.

• 1:04:23Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:04:24Speaker 03

  Rather as I was meeting the celebrities of the 70s, you were then meeting the turn of the century celebrities in the same sort of way.

• 1:04:31Speaker 04

  Yeah. And actually, my first job was for a publishing company. It was for Alan Davidson's publishing company, Prospect Books.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:04:39Speaker 04

  So, yeah.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  But they were more serious books, were they?

• 1:04:40Speaker 04

  They were. They were about food history. But, you know, what I'm saying is, I reckon I could fit in a publishing company.

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  I think you could.

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Speaker 03

  I think you could. Rosebud Publishing. I'm feeling.

• 1:04:51Speaker 04

  Oh, gosh, don't start, Giles.

• 1:04:53Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 1:04:53Speaker 04

  No, we're doing enough already. Thank you.

• 1:04:55Speaker 03

  We're doing enough already. Yes, because this is a caring, compassionate business.

• 1:04:58Speaker 04

  Exactly. We are publishing. We're just not publishing books. We're publishing podcasts.

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  We're publishing podcasts every Tuesday, every Friday. And if you want the extra, we're there on Sunday afternoons as well. If you want to find out more about that, you simply go to Patreon, P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com forward slash Rosebud. You'll find all the details.

• 1:05:18Speaker 04

  Yes. Oh, yeah. And we should say, I should have said when we read out that email from Darren at the beginning, he ended it by saying, please, can you make more episodes every week because I'm getting to the end? I should have said then, are you a member of the Rosebud family, Darren? Because if you are, then you get three episodes a week. And that's a good reason to join. If you, if you don't find two episodes a week is enough, then join the Rosebud family for only £5 a month. That's about £1.50 a week. You can get an extra episode of Rosebud.

• 1:05:52Speaker 03

  No, at £6 a month, four times £1.50.

• 1:05:55Speaker 04

  Oh, that's, I can't, no, but that's plus VAT. That is right.

• 1:05:59Speaker 03

  Completely acceptable. It's, you're right about everything, Harriet. I want you to know that.

• 1:06:02Speaker 04

  Anyway, gosh, this is hard work. I think I need another coffee.

• 1:06:08Speaker 03

  I think we both need another coffee. Thank you, as ever, for your company. We love having it. Do stick with us. We love you. Lots of excitement to come. This has been another diary episode. There'll be more in a fortnight from me and from.

• 1:06:21Speaker 04

  Harriet.

• 1:06:22Speaker 03

  It's goodbye and.

• 1:06:24Speaker 04

  Cue the music.

• 1:07:15Speaker 03

  That was more Rosebud with music by Phil Leopard, production by Harriet Jane, and in the chair, me, Giles Brandwood. Thank you for listening.

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