More Rosebud 3rd birthday "treat repeat" special - Terry Pendry, Queen Elizabeth II's groom

1 September 2026 is Rosebud's THIRD birthday! And to celebrate, we are giving you the chance to listen again to one of our best ever episodes: with the late Queen Elizabeth II's groom, Terry Pendry. Terry worked with Queen Elizabeth II for over 28 years, as her Stud Groom and Manager at Windsor Castle. Terry's relationship with the Queen was unique, because he rode with her every morning when she was at Windsor. This is when the Queen was able to relax, and talk about her passions - for horses, dogs, animals and the countryside. And so, this interview with Terry - which we recorded in the Royal Mews at Windsor - gives an unusual level of insight into what it was like to spend time with the Queen, and tells us all about her love and knowledge of horses. And we meet her favourite pony, Emma, who she rode for the last few years of her life. Our thanks to Terry for this wonderful conversation, for introducing us to Noble and Emma, and to Sue Pendry for her hospitality and cake. We won't need to remind you that we're also coming up to the fourth anniversary of the death of Queen Elizabeth II, on 8th September 2026. Which gives us another very fitting reason to replay this episode today. Thank you so much to all of you - our listeners. Whether you've been here since the start, or have only discovered us recently - we love having you here. We couldn't do this without you. So happy birthday to Rosebud, happy birthday to us, and happy birthday to all of you. Sit down with a slice of cake, a cup of tea, or maybe just snuggle up under the duvet and enjoy this. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 0:58Speaker 01

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• 1:54Speaker 02

  My name is Gyles Brandreth and I'm here this Tuesday morning with my friend, my colleague, the producer of Rosebud, who is Harriet Jane.

• 2:03Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  Here we both, here we both are.

• 2:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  In real time, this is Tuesday, the 1st of September, 2026. The 1st of September has always been a special day in my life since I was a little boy because it is the Feast of?

• 2:19Speaker 03

  Saint Giles.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:22Speaker 03

  Giles has got his own feast, everybody. Have you got your own feast? Do you need to get one?

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Well, if you have a name that is a Christian name, you almost certainly will have a feast day because every day of the year in the sort of calendar of saints is a feast day.

• 2:36Speaker 03

  And I hope you're celebrating yours, everybody.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Well, if you're called Giles, I hope you're celebrating it today.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, what do you do?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Saint Giles is a patron saint of all sorts of interesting things, including, I think, beggars and prostitutes.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  Oh, that's cool.

• 2:50Speaker 02

  Very cool. Anyone who listens to the Daddy episodes will know that as a child, I went on holiday to France most summers from the age of about seven to the age of about 18, when I went away to university. And I was on my own, usually staying with a family, later on staying in different kinds of hostel. But when I was with a family, they were always Catholic families, and feast days for them counted for a great deal. So when we got to the 1st of September, it was always marked. And we'd probably go to church and then there would be literally a feast, which would include a cake in my honor for Giles on the Feast of Saint Giles. And I do remember the year in which the cake was so rich and sweet.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  And I think it may have had almonds in it, which I don't really like, but I felt obliged to eat a slice of it. Oh, dearie me. So it's one of the things that haunts me still. So Saint Giles' Day has always been important to me for that reason, because it is the Feast of Saint Giles. But for the last three years, this day has been special to me because it is the day on which we launched the Rosebud podcast.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  So if you've been listening from the beginning, we've been doing this for three years.

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Today is our third birthday.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, happy birthday, Giles.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Happy birthday, Harriet. Happy birthday. And if there are people here listening, who've been listening since the beginning, thank you so much for being with us. It's been fantastic, the way we've survived. We've done three years, a couple of episodes, I think every week, some weeks more than that. And I think we've had fun.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's been brilliant. It's amazing that everyone's listened for three years.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  It is, it's fantastic. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We have millions of listeners around the world. And I wanted today to celebrate, Harriet, by playing. Well, first, my first thought was, oh, shall we have edited highlights? Golden Moments, nuggets from the last three years? And you said, no, because the point of Rosebud is we're not looking for a sort of nuggets. We're not looking for quotations. The point of Rosebud is it is a long conversation. You get to know people better, listening to them at length.

• 5:01Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  So I thought, well, okay, shall we replay a favorite episode? And then I thought, what is my favorite episode? Because I, I've loved them all in different ways. What for you, Harriet, have been memorable episodes of Rosebud?

• 5:15Speaker 03

  Oh, I mean, it's so hard to choose, isn't it? We were just talking about this and we really couldn't pick. But I'm going to just say six or seven that stand out to me, but it could change tomorrow. So this is just what I'm saying today. And like a big family, I don't have favorites. And genuinely, I think almost every episode, when I sit and edit it, I think, what an incredible, interesting, moving, funny conversa... You know, I just so rarely has there been an episode that I've not thought was fabulous.

• 5:58Speaker 03

  And we learn so much and we're so grateful to our guests for sharing the amount that they do. And I mean, genuinely, they're just, they're brilliant. And I'm privileged to listen to them sometimes four or five or six times because when you edit something, you listen to it a lot. But these are just some that stand out to me that I particularly enjoyed when I was just looking back through the list. Sue Pollard.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  Hilarious.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  What a delightful person. I knew she was a delightful person. I'd always loved her, but just, you know, as with everybody, so much more depth and complexity and interest and subtlety. And I just found that so fun. And she'd been someone that I'd loved since I was a child. So I was thrilled to bits to meet her in that way. And what a delightful person, just so, so charming.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  Another episode which I love, and I know you love Giles, because also it was a special day out for us, was when we went to Sissinghurst. And we actually sat in Sissinghurst, which was a treat, in this very sort of tumble-down kitchen that had no frills and felt really old-fashioned and nice, with Adam Nicholson, who is a scion of that family.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Grandson of Vita Zachvalworth.

• 7:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, and so we were in his family home and his gorgeous and talented wife, who is a bit of a hero of mine, Sarah Raven, who's a gardener, and I'm into gardening. So that was a real treat and such a nice episode. If you want to hear a couple and a couple of very interesting, intelligent people, Sarah Raven and Adam Nicholson at Sissinghurst. Then I was looking through the list and I was remembering Timothy Spall.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Oh, I'd forgotten that. He was one of the best, the film star, wonderful actor.

• 7:50Speaker 03

  We were lucky to have him, Giles, because he's not somebody that is interviewed a lot. And he came especially for Rosebud and he wasn't publicizing anything. And he'd had a very interesting childhood, working-class childhood, and just a lovely and really deep and interesting and true person. And I really, really was honored to meet him and a great actor.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  I want to listen to that one again.

• 8:18Speaker 03

  Oh, so interesting.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Because we've been very blessed with sort of film stars like Hugh Bonneville, Gary Oldman. But Timothy Spall is a really intriguing figure, isn't he?

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, and a great actor and something that I think people like that, I feel like they only exist in Britain, you know? He's just a wonderful guy. I'm going to do a mention for someone that we just, we mentioned in passing the other day and I thought, oh, we don't, we don't give enough to this episode, but we were lucky that we had him and it was so good. John Cleese.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  We often mention Michael Palin, which was a brilliant one, but John Cleese was a brilliant one, too.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  John Cleese was fascinating and he'd had a bit of a rough ride on social media.

• 8:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, he gets a bit of a bad press, doesn't he?

• 9:01Speaker 02

  Though I think that's changing, curiously. I mean, he is, he's an iconic figure.

• 9:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  Comedy in our time, John Cleese, back from Monty Python, through Faulty Towers, through to what he does now. I mean.

• 9:12Speaker 03

  And it's a funny episode of Rosebud, because he tells us really funny stories.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Funny stories, and we got on with him terribly well. And he was hugely tall, wasn't he?

• 9:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh yeah. But I loved that. And then I really.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Could we get Eric Idle, do you think?

• 9:24Speaker 03

  Oh, I think, I think we're going to.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Any living pythons, we should gather them into our net.

• 9:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're going to get Eric Idle. And then the next two, I'll just say really quickly, loved Bjorn from ABBA, thrilled to bits to meet him and get my photo with him. Loved Sandy Toksvig, another Scandinavian.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Good grief, the people we have had on Rosebud.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  I know.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  In the last three years.

• 9:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  We've done hundreds of episodes, haven't we?

• 9:47Speaker 03

  She was so fun. And then another great woman, Sue Perkins.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  Sue Perkins.

• 9:52Speaker 03

  A lovely, a very, very, very interesting episode.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Very good. People on my list, I have, well, it's so difficult, isn't it? I particularly have enjoyed scions of families. The grandchildren, for example, of Oscar Wilde and Winston Churchill.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Merlin Holland and Nicholas Holmes, I loved them. Rose Boite, do you remember her?

• 10:14Speaker 03

  Very good.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Lucian Freud's daughter.

• 10:16Speaker 03

  One of the many.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  One of, but a complicated story, complicated relationship with her father. We've had some pain, and the pain isn't comfortable, but it's still fascinating. Charles Spencer, pain in his childhood.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  Such a good episode.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Alan Davies, the QI comedian, pain, terrible pain in his childhood. I mean, they do make for fascinating listening.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  They really do.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  I mean, we are so lucky that people are so open about their childhoods. I mean, Iva Mountbatten, again, the scion of an extraordinary family.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a great one.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  So when they bring to it not just their story, but the baggage that comes with having the name that they have.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yeah. And that's one of our top watched episodes on YouTube.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  Oh, that's because we have a big following in America.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  And he won American Traitors.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Celebrity Traitors in America. But we have a very big American audience, and we've had some wonderful American guests. We're going to get more of those in the future.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  What a charming man, Iva Mountbatten.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  And I think we're going to be having later in the year, speaking of interesting families, one of the scions of Daphne du Mauricio's family, her grandson.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  Oh, that's.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Is going to be a guest. And we haven't yet had, have we? The grandson of Charlie Chaplin.

• 11:29Speaker 03

  No, he's coming up.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  Yay! These are things that are coming up. I've loved the funny episodes. I loved Caitlin Moran, who was both funny.

• 11:36Speaker 03

  Catlin.

• 11:37Speaker 02

  I loved Catlin Moran, because she was just funny. Oh, and I adored Rachel Stirling.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  Oh, I know you did, Giles.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  Who was funny.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  Well, because that got a bit broody. Giles loves that.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Well, I love a bit of that. But I also, I love A Laugh With Heart, which the Reverend Richard Coles gave us.

• 11:54Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a good one.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Lee Mack did us a real honour by coming on. I mean, because one of the joys of Rosebud is that people come on who you don't hear everywhere else.

• 12:04Speaker 03

  But he actually said to us, didn't he? I hope he doesn't mind me sharing this. He said to us, I don't really like to do podcasts. You know, he said, the problem is, you, you talk, you say more than you're planning, maybe, because you get comfortable. And then the papers pick up on things you said, and suddenly, before you know it, there's. And so he, I think we were really lucky that he did it.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  I did feel that when we did the interview with Justin Welby, the former Archbishop of Canterbury.

• 12:33Speaker 03

  Mm.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  Because we don't give things to the papers, they just listen.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  And they wrote up our conversation, and without really reporting on the totality of the conversation, but I found him really intriguing. And of course, I loved the other Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, we had on.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Beautiful person and a poet, you know. We've had quite a few poets. I suppose that reflects my interest. Simon Armitage, Pam Ayers, Roger McGough.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a great one. Oh, he's lovely.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  And somebody coming.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  Oh, I mean, we're just telling everyone all the episodes now, Giles.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  No, we're not. We're going to stop.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Because this is meant to be a select few, not those.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  This is a select few.

• 13:08Speaker 03

  Three hundred episodes we've done.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  No, this is a select few. And what I wanted to say is, the poets reflect my interest. We've not had enough sports people, because I don't know nothing about sport.

• 13:19Speaker 03

  No, I don't really.

• 13:20Speaker 02

  But do you not agree that the great West Indian cricketer?

• 13:24Speaker 03

  Sir Vivian Richards. What a legend.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  It was a legend, and we're thrilled to have had him. We chew, I want to explain this.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Can I just say about him?

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, do.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  I mean, it's, you know, obviously, we're really lucky, because not only do we get to listen to these brilliant conversations, but we actually meet these people and spend some time with them. And for me, that's a real honour, because, I mean, Giles has met everyone, as you all know, but I haven't. So it's really amazing. And I still get starstruck. And but Sir Vivian Richards was, you know, I'm not a cricket fan. I'm a, you know, I'm a girl, and I wasn't that interested in cricket. I knew he was a big deal. But you could just tell the moment he stepped out of his taxi, you were in the presence of a great man. I don't know, there was this aura, this bearing that he had, this physical

• 14:20Speaker 03

  presence, this elegance, this charisma, yeah, riz. And it was really striking, and I loved meeting him. Yeah, what a, what a dude.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  What a dude.

• 14:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  And I think I mentioned to you at the time, I was privileged enough to be in the presence of Nelson Mandela once.

• 14:39Speaker 03

  Oh, wow, I bet that was amazing.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  And it was curiously comparable.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Which is odd. And what a courteous man. I re-met him a year or more after we'd done the podcast, and he came straight up to me and talked immediately about Rosebud.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Well, that is class, isn't it?

• 14:54Speaker 03

  I think it's a real sign how important manners are.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  It's easy to forget, isn't it? But he was someone with impeccable manners, yeah.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  So we're going to be, for the next three years, I hope, raising our game, broadening our interests. I'd never have thought of inviting Anna Lapwood, the wonderful organist from the Royal Albert Hall, but I learnt so much from her.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  The way it works, by the way, is that we come up with ideas, you, the listeners, come up with ideas, and then we, if we both agree, we have to both agree on the guest, because if we don't both agree, I'm afraid they're not invited. I say that because there are friends of mine who say to me, Giles, it's your podcast, you know, if anybody wants. I say, no, it's actually our podcast. Harriet and I agree on the guests together. And that's how we get more variety, and that actually is how we work as a team. So we, we work in harness. So if it's just, I mean, I, so what I'm really thinking to my friends is, you can't just ask me, I can't deliver it for you. It has to be a joint selection. So we're hoping to broaden our interests. Thank you for introducing me to people you have

• 15:59Speaker 02

  introduced me to. Thank you, Harriet, for the last three years. And I want to thank everybody from Tarek Ali.

• 16:06Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a brilliant one.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Who I think alphabetically may be the first name in our list, I don't know.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  But he was fascinating.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Fantastic.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Through Richard Ayewide, everybody, actually, who has been on Rosebud in the last three years, thank you. We couldn't decide what episode to play you today, so together, we made an executive decision. I think we made it jointly. We're in Edinburgh recording this for the first of September. Next week will mark the fourth anniversary of the passing of Elizabeth the Second, who died on the eighth of September, twenty twenty two, in Scotland. And we enjoyed a remarkable episode. We went to Windsor Castle, to the home of Terry Pendry, who was her groom for, I think, about twenty-eight years. And he

• 16:57Speaker 02

  remembered his time working with and for the Queen, and becoming her friend, really. And I found it a very affecting and moving episode, very interesting as well. So it's a combination of, well, a witness to history, telling us his story. It's funny, it's moving, it's special. It's just one of hundreds of episodes that Harriet and I have brought you over the last three years. Thank you so much for your company. Please stick with us as we go brightly into our fourth year. It's been huge fun. My special thanks to Harriet for making it all possible, but most of all to you for listening to Rosebud. So

• 17:39Speaker 02

  after the music, it's going to be, well, Rosebud with Terry Pendry remembering Elizabeth the Second on the fourth anniversary of her death. Cue the music.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  So what I'd like to begin with, Terry, is your first memory of meeting the Queen. The first encounter you, Terry, had with Elizabeth II. When did you first remember seeing her, meeting her?

• 18:19Speaker 04

  The very first one, actually, before joining the Household Cavalry. I was going way back to 1971, when she came to do the Maude service at Chelmsford Abbey. That's when I first saw her. Then I was driving a plant machine digger, and I parked it up, got it out of my greasy overalls and went to the... I didn't dare go into Chelmsford, you couldn't get in anyway. But I stood on the outside of Chelmsford, and I watched this huge car pass me, and I bowed, because I thought it was the right thing to do. The only thing I saw then was the back of her hat out of a glass window.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  That was the first encounter I ever saw of the Queen, which was way back in 1971, not realising in 1974 I was about to join the Household Cavalry. And from there on in, I mean, I would see her on a regular basis. The first time I saw her, I escorted her, actually, in 1974, down to the Troop in the Colour, when she rode Burmese.

• 19:27Speaker 02

  You say you escorted, you were on horseback too?

• 19:29Speaker 04

  I was on horseback. I rode on Troop in the Colour. My first Troop in the Colour was in 1974, and I've been riding on it ever since. I've done 49 years Troop in the Colour. So I've probably ridden on more Troopings than anybody, probably including the Queen, because she only did one a year. I used to have to do three: Major Generals, Colonel's Review, and then the...

• 19:53Speaker 02

  The real thing.

• 19:54Speaker 04

  Then the real thing. So that was three in a year.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  And can you remember your first time of actually being face to face, having a conversation with the Queen?

• 20:02Speaker 04

  Yep. Her Majesty had visited the regiment, actually, at Knightsbridge, and I was introduced to her in the riding school.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Now, what year was this?

• 20:10Speaker 04

  Oh, it's true. 1974 is when I joined, so we're getting towards the late 70s.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  The late 70s. So the Queen, then, was in her 50s.

• 20:20Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  You're in your 20s.

• 20:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  And what happens? What does she look like?

• 20:27Speaker 04

  Radiant. I mean, I think that was the word, radiant. I mean, she was radiant. And, look, I was, I don't know, five foot eight. That day, I felt about seven foot tall. I mean, that's kind of what she did to you. But just to... And I just tried to be, whatever the word "normal" means, that's what I tried to be.

• 20:47Speaker 02

  So you had the advantage of being somebody who was deeply into the world that she loved most. Because the remarkable thing about the Queen, I think the reason she lived so long and so happily, was though she was driven by duty, sustained by faith, her religion was terribly important to her, her passion in life were the dogs and the horses. And you spoke that language.

• 21:10Speaker 04

  You're very... You're right on all those things, and I could speak that language.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Did she ever tell you about her early years riding?

• 21:20Speaker 04

  Yes, she did. We shared all sorts of stories. I remember being with her one day, it was Armistice Day in Frogmore Gardens. It was unique. And I said, "Well, Mum, you do realise it's Armistice Days?" "Yes, yes, but I do want to ride. I'm coming down." And she said, "Look, we're going to Frogmore Gardens, and when it's approaching 11 o'clock, we'll stop and we'll observe the two-minute silence." And I said, "Okay." So we did. We were in the garden, on the lawn, and we're overlooking the lake, looking back at Frogmore House. And she said, "Just let me know when it's 11." I said, "So..." I said, "Mum, it's now 11 o'clock." And we sat in silence for two minutes.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  And I told her, actually, two minutes was up. We started to move off. And she said, "I've just remembered two people in the RAF. One was a Spitfire pilot that was found in the Spitfire, obviously in a skeleton form, but they knew who he was through the dog chains round his neck. And the other one was a dear friend of my Papa, that went off in a bomber over Germany and never came back." Now, those are the sort of things that she used to share. Wonderful, wonderful moment. It was such a surreal moment.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Quite strange for you, because you eventually, as the groom, you spent a lot of time just alone with the pair of you, on horseback, going out riding.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I mean, I think over the years, really, we became very good friends. I mean, the two people that worked for her any length of time was Roger Oliver, who was a great stud groom. He was with Her Majesty for some, oh, I think, 25 years. I did 28 and a half, right through to the very end. So I think you do build that relationship and trust.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  So from that first encounter, how did it develop into something more? How you actually came to work personally for the Queen and to become the groom? How did that happen?

• 23:26Speaker 04

  She actually asked me... I'd done 16 and a half years in the Household Cavalry, and I was approached then, and I was asked, "Would I consider being a stud groom for Her Majesty of the Queen?" And I came and had an interview with Her Majesty.

• 23:42Speaker 02

  And what did she ask you at the interview? I mean, it's quite strange going for a job on the Queen's interview.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  It was just really a general chit-chat, really.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  But it was clear to her that you talked her language.

• 23:52Speaker 04

  I think that's right. I think they were sounding me out, in hindsight. That's probably what they were doing, they were sounding me out.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  And did they tell you what the duties were? Were you clear?

• 24:01Speaker 04

  Well, yes, yes.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  And what were the duties? What was the essence of it?

• 24:04Speaker 04

  Well, obviously, running the Royal Muse, it was built by... This muse here, where it stabled 110 horses, it still stables 98 to this day.

• 24:12Speaker 02

  And so you were to manage that? You were to look after this? That was your job?

• 24:17Speaker 04

  Manage that, her private, her personal, private riding horses, and...

• 24:21Speaker 02

  And how did she choose those?

• 24:23Speaker 04

  Well, she bred them. She didn't choose them, she bred most of them. I would have to go... We would go to Hampton Court once a year, the Crown Aquary, whoever he was of the day. Her Majesty would arrive, the vet, and we'd grade the horses and ponies.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 24:44Speaker 04

  Well, grade them and say, "Look, as a two-year-old, three-year-old, which one would be ready first to start, to come to Windsor, and that first bridle, that first saddle, the first person on their backs, and getting them ready, and saying what they would be good for."

• 25:02Speaker 02

  And what was she looking for?

• 25:03Speaker 04

  Oh, well, I mean, personally, she was fantastic, just looking, whether it be a horse or pony. I mean, the footfall of it, whether everything was in the right place, particularly her racehorses. She was so clever with her racehorses, she could listen to the footfall as to whether it was level. Not only was it level, but she would look at the action of the horse as well, whether it was rounded over at the knee, or whether it would extend itself, and she would actually know then whether it would be able to run on, the hard, the good, the soft. She was expert at it. She was really, really good.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Did she know as much as you?

• 25:46Speaker 04

  Did she know as much as me? That's not fair. Probably more.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  That's the right answer.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  Yes, of course it is. I was never going to say anything different. Of course it is. Really, if she wasn't Queen, she would have made a good farmer's wife. She would have made a brilliant racing trainer.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:04Speaker 04

  She would have done.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  And she really cared from birth to death of her horses and her ponies. I mean, I heard a story about her actually watching on video.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  Well, that's very true. Even here, they would wake her up in the night, Paul Wybur, the page, or whatever, she had a link with Sandringham, where all the racehorses are bred, and they were on video, and if a mare was in foal and about to give birth, the phone would ring, and she would love to see the foal born. She's done that on numerous occasions, numerous occasions.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  That's amazing. So this is Tall Paul, the famous page?

• 26:42Speaker 04

  Tall Paul, Tall Paul.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Who would go and wake her up and say, "Your Majesty, we're about to give birth."

• 26:46Speaker 04

  Not many people would walk into Her Majesty's bedroom and say, "Look, you know, do you want to see one of your mares give him birth?" But if anybody could, Paul could.

• 26:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So nearly 29 years working for the Queen.

• 27:00Speaker 04

  28 and a half, and then she passed.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  28 and a half years working for the Queen. In that time, so much to remember. Can you remember the most amusing day? The thing that makes you laugh when you think back, and that made her laugh?

• 27:14Speaker 04

  There's been lots, but she was a brilliant mimic. Accents and things like that, and clever. She enjoyed a good joke. She could tell a good joke. And dare I tell one of the jokes?

• 27:31Speaker 02

  Please.

• 27:32Speaker 04

  Well, it was told to her, actually, at church, actually at the Royal Chapel, a really, really good Canon Martin Pole, before he gave his sermon. On the odd occasion, would tell a joke. But the Queen, actually, I rode with her on her pony, Emma. I was riding in a little pony called Dawn Chorus, and we actually just passed Frogmore, and came to an open field on the left where there was cows, red Sussex cattle. And she said, she just looked across at me and said, "Mother Superior," she said, "she's dying." "I'm sorry, what did you just say?" She said, "Mother Superior, she's dying."

• 28:14Speaker 04

  I said, "But Mum," I said, "excuse me, but you're not Catholic?" "I know," she said, "it's a joke." She said, "Mother Superior's dying." And she said, "All the nuns gathered round the bed." And she said, "One nun said, 'Well, we must offer Mother Superior a fresh glass of water.'" Bearing in mind, we're riding, and she's... Waving her hands at me. So they duly did that and Mother Superior dismissed it and said, take it away, I don't want that. So they went a little bit further and, and, and, ah, one nun said, I know, she said, let's, and the Queen pointed into the field, let's capture our very best cow and we'll milk her.

• 28:58Speaker 04

  And, and Mother Superior, a fresh glass of milk. Bearing in mind her Majesty and Queen Elizabeth drank fresh milk straight from the cow unpasteurised.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 29:09Speaker 04

  Oh, yes.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  Elizabeth the Second and the Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  Even the Queen Mum. Uh, uh, uh, the Queen used to tell me, it was good enough for my Mama, it's good enough for me. Well, I guess they built their antibodies up and the Queen used to enjoy her, her soft cheese in those little muslin rags. Uh, anyway, getting back to the story, they offered Mother Superior this fresh glass of milk, uh, and, uh, Mother Superior, mm mm, don't want it, take it away. So, uh, we rode on a little longer and, and, uh, a, a very naughty nun, uh, said, I know, she said, let's, let's put a real, real good glug of whisky in the milk, see if that will work. So they duly did that and with that, Mother Superior drank the whole darn thing down in one.

• 29:55Speaker 04

  Uh, and so we were both chuckling, Queen was chuckling as well. So, um, anyway, she said, the inevitable happens two days later that, uh, Mother Superior is gonna pass into the better world and all the nuns gathered round her bed and said, do you have any final instructions or, or requests, um, before you pass? Uh, with that, the, the reins on Emma started going up and down. The Queen is actually giggling, uh, cause she knew the punchline and she'd, uh, she said, yes, Mother Superior, she said, I just have one. She said, whatever you do, she said, do not sell that cow.

• 30:38Speaker 04

  Now, the Queen told me that, that's the wicked sense of humour of, of, of our lovely, lovely Queen.

• 30:46Speaker 02

  And I think people didn't realise that. I remember years ago, talking to the Queen about the Second World War and she said, coming here to Windsor at weekends were entertainers to entertain the royal family and the royal household and people like you or the equivalent of you in those days who lived on the estate. And they, her favourite was George Formby. And then I said, do you know his songs? She said, oh, I remember all his songs, I can still do them. And she picked up an imaginary banjaleli and began singing.

• 31:14Speaker 04

  I'm leaning on the post.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  No.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  No, not that one.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  When I'm cleaning windows.

• 31:18Speaker 04

  When I'm cleaning window, yeah.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Did you ever, and she did, it was a perfect George Formby.

• 31:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  And she said she got into impressions because there was somebody called Florence Desmond, who was on the wireless in the nineteen thirties and forties, who was an impressionist. And she could clearly do regional accents, she could do people.

• 31:36Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  Uh, and did she ever do, well, obviously she did do impressions for you.

• 31:40Speaker 04

  Uh, uh, ooh, I don't know, maybe she did, not, not to my face, but, uh, ooh, she could take off really, really well. She used to breed cows with a chap, um, in, uh, New Zealand and, uh, his name was Don Ferguson, uh, and that, that accent of, of the New Zealander, he would ring her up, uh, and, and tell her Majesty that they'd won the, the county championship or whatever, but, but she used to do that to me on a regular basis. She, she said, uh, Don Ferguson rang me and he used to start off, good evening, your Majesty, Don Ferguson here. And, and she'd do that just like that. And it was Don Ferguson speaking, she was very clever.

• 32:21Speaker 02

  She was, and she could do, I think, things as well as people. I mean, she could do concord, coming into land when there was concord.

• 32:28Speaker 04

  Concord, Concord when we rode, when I used to ride out, she was still riding, uh, her lovely horse called Sanction then, the last horse that she ever rode before reverting to ponies. Uh, and, uh, concord used to come over us about, oh, twelve minutes past eleven. Uh, and she always say, that's the la, that's the lady pilot, it used to dip its wing. Uh, and, but whether it was or whether it's not, but strangely enough, it didn't always dip a wing when it, the noise was unbelievably loud.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  And the Queen thought the parrot was.

• 33:04Speaker 04

  On the odd occasion, the wing would just flip, that's the lady pilot.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Oh, music.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  That's what she, she's waving and she, and she'd look up at it.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  The Queen waved back at concord.

• 33:15Speaker 04

  Uh, she'd wave at concord every time, when, oh, she waved at conc, she was very proud of concord.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  That's fantastic, that's fantastic. But she was fun, the point is she was, she was, she was fun.

• 33:25Speaker 04

  Look, I, I, I shouldn't really say it, but she could just do, she was more like my mum than anything else. I mean, she was, she was very motherly and, and, uh, uh, her whole family, an all to watch her with her family, uh, particularly when, up to Balmoral, when we went to Balmoral, I mean, that her grandchildren just doted on her, her own children, I mean, just, it was just, it was just magical to watch it.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  What is the, the saddest recollection, not for you personally, but the moment, because we'll come on to her passing in a minute, but, uh, of all the years you worked for her, was there a dark time, was there ever a time where?

• 34:05Speaker 04

  I was riding with her, actually, when she lost her dear Mama, uh, Queen Elizabeth, um, we were riding across the middle of the estate and, and, and the, um, one of the detectives come running across the field, uh, jumped out of her car and he was waving his phone in the air. So we stopped and, uh, she thought it was, it was the doctor and she thought it was for her, it was an appointment for her because she had made an appointment, but then her face just dropped. Um, and I'd never seen that, it just dropped. And she said, it's my Mama, I need to go. And I said, well, do you want to get off here and, and go with him? No, no, she said, we're, we're, we're ride back to the castle, I need to gather my thoughts.

• 34:47Speaker 04

  Um, so I radioed through on my radio for my staff to get her mountain block to the castle rather than come back to the mews, which we did, managed to get her off her horse, uh, and she drove herself up to, uh, the Royal Lodge, uh, up the long walk and, uh, when she got there, um, Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother had been made comfortable, uh, and she said to the Queen that, um, you have a lunchtime engagement, don't you? Yes, mummy, but, um, I can cancel that. No, no, she said, off you go, you're not required yet. Uh, and she sent her back, uh, and her Majesty did her, her lunchtime engagement in Frog Wall Gardens, uh, and then drove back up the long walk.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  By that time, uh, they'd make, made her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth, Queen Mother more comfy and put her pearls and earrings and, which she dearly loved on and, and Margaret Rose, uh, Queen's cousin, sat one side of Queen Elizabeth.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  Oh, Margaret Rhodes, yes.

• 35:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, she sat one side of, uh, the Queen Mother and the Queen sat the other and she went to sleep, simple as that, she went to sleep. And she just, Queen just picked up her two corgis and brought them back to Windsor Castle, they integrated with, what was in her pack, cause I think the Queen still had six of her own then, so it would, went, came to eight. Uh, and, and it, that, that was a sad day for the Queen. Um, but those two dogs, that, there was a, a room in the house where the Queen, I call it the house, the castle, where Queen Elizabeth used to stay when she came to stay and those two little dogs never went in that room ever again. Quite remarkable.

• 36:33Speaker 04

  Um, but then we rode with her, uh, on the Monday, um, Princess Royal was down, just to give her support, but incredibly strong. But the Queen, Elizabeth, Queen Mum had a, a long and fulfilled life, uh, you know.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Exactly, I mean, a hundred years and more.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  Almost a hundred and two.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:52Speaker 04

  Amazing, so maybe, maybe that unpasteurised milk worked.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  She was always quite self-contained, Elizabeth the Second, wasn't she? I remember hearing from people who were with her when she became Queen, when the late King, George the Sixth died and she came back from Kenya, how calm and contained she was and how she didn't shed tears. Duke of Edinburgh, I remember saying to me, I asked him if he'd seen the film, The Queen, with Helen Mirren, he said, why would I want to see that? And he said, and he got irritated, he said, no, there's apparently the, the, they have the Queen crying in the film. He said, the Queen doesn't cry. And she wasn't saying, it's a virtue not to cry, or, he said, an actress would cry, would assume the Queen would cry, but she didn't cry.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  And she was very much a contained person, wasn't she?

• 37:42Speaker 04

  Uh, uh, yeah, I mean, uh, there, there was, without a shadow of doubt, I don't know whether it's a godly thing or not, but there was an inner, inner power, uh, you mentioned earlier, her, her religion, um, uh, that played an awful powerful part in her life and, and, yeah, there, there was, uh, would you call it steely? I'm, I'm not sure if you'd call it steely, but there was an inner something in her, without a shadow of doubt.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  What about any time you embarrassed yourself, did you ever get it wrong? Was there ever a moment that, oh my goodness, I can't bear that moment to remember that, but you can remember it for us? Something where you got it slightly wrong?

• 38:23Speaker 04

  No, not, not actually with the Queen, uh, uh, with, with the Duke of Edinburgh, um, once, uh, and you know, we, he's famous for, you know, letting fly every now and then. Um, I was out, uh, with her Majesty, actually just coming back in, uh, we have a tunnel, uh, the, uh, when we come back out, out of the park to come down into the stables. Um, I'd asked her Majesty whether I could take the belly out of her pony, cause in the winter months.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 38:55Speaker 04

  Uh, clipping, uh, when you, when you take, uh, a, a, a very low trace clip, uh, uh, her pony Emma in those days in the winter months would grow a very, very thick coat, uh, and she could get a bit sweaty. Uh, and it was an awful job trying to get her dry and keep her clean for grooming. So I said, look, you know, uh, we're not going to show this pony anymore. Do you mind if I take her tummy out and a little bit of her neck, which would help the groom? No, I don't mind, she said. So I duly did. I did that. Uh, and anyway, the, the couple of days later, uh, we used to call him the old man, uh, the Duke of Edinburgh, but we'll call him the old man.

• 39:37Speaker 04

  Uh, he must have had a bad drive on his ponies and came up, walking up through the corridor. Uh, and we met right outside where my office is, Queen Victoria's viewing gallery. Queen was on her pony, I was on mine. He said, you've clipped that bloody pony. And I said to him, um, I said, well, that's plain and obvious, Your Highness. And the Queen just looked at me. Uh, and he said, you should be put up against the wall and bloody well shot. You don't clip native ponies. I said, Your Royal Highness, I said, uh, I said, I'd rather you keep your cartridges for pheasants and partridges. I said, penders are out of season. Queen's eyes went as big as an owl, as big as an owl.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  You shouldn't have said that, she said, and she rode off and left me. He went mental. Some of it was in German, some of it was in Dutch, some of it was in Greek, some of it was in English, but everyone was a swear word.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  Oh my.

• 40:35Speaker 04

  Everyone was a swear word.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  How you dare do that?

• 40:39Speaker 04

  Well, I did. I stood, I stood my ground and I took my punishment.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Wow, you, that was.

• 40:43Speaker 04

  I told you he was gonna pull me off a pony, but he didn't.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Because. Countess Mountbatten told me how she'd been in the car with the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh. And, uh, the Queen had asked the Duke of Edinburgh to go a bit more slowly. And he told her to shut up. And she was really sort of really nervous. Uh, and the Duke of Edinburgh said, one more squeak from you and I'm turning you out. And they got to the end of the journey and Countess Mountbatten said to the Queen, why did you let him talk to you like that? And the Queen said, because he meant it. He would have turned me out and on the motorway. Um, so he could be formidable, couldn't he?

• 41:23Speaker 04

  Uh, do you know, but it was like switching on and off a light bulb.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:28Speaker 04

  I think it's in all of them. All the children are a little bit the same. I mean, they, they, they, they can show their anger, uh, and, and it's just letting off steam. Uh, are they humans the same as you and I? That's what they are. But you know what? They don't bear grudges. They say what they say, they say what they mean, but then it's done, it's forgotten about. You get on with the rest of your life. I mean, I, I met with this Royal Highness the next day and he was perfectly okay. But, uh, I, I dared that day to stand my ground and, uh, I knew I should, I, it just slipped off my tongue. I said, you keep your cartridges for pheasant and partridges. But, uh, but, uh, anyway, he showed his displeasure.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  He showed his displeasure.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  I can't repeat over the microphone some of the words and I, and I probably best not to.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Definitely best not to.

• 42:15Speaker 04

  But it was a man's, it was a man's telling off.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  So how often did you?

• 42:19Speaker 04

  I deserved it too, by the way. I probably deserved it.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Oh, do you think so? But, but no, but you'd got.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  Well, I was rude. I shouldn't have said, I shouldn't have said what I said.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  True, but you'd get, got the Queen's permission to do the clipping.

• 42:30Speaker 04

  The pony I'm not worried about, but, uh, probably I shouldn't have been.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  You shouldn't have answered back.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Would I dare say I was arrogant to him or rude to him? Maybe I was. So maybe I deserved it.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. He certainly didn't really, wasn't very fond of the corgis. I do remember that. I heard him say pretty harsh things about the corgis.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  Well, that's fabled and known, but I mean, I, I, I've actually been up the, I, again, I call it the house. I've actually seen him sat with the Queen, watching the television, and I have actually seen him stroking corgis. So I'm not sure how.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Oh, well done.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  I, I know that he would, they'd say he'd kick them and say that bloody thing or whatever. But I've actually seen him embracing them as well, so.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Oh, good.

• 43:15Speaker 04

  I have seen him do it.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  That's good. And what we would like on a firsthand account.

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• 45:03Speaker 02

  Take us now towards the end of the Queen's life because for many people, they don't remember her as we remember her because of our age when she was young and beautiful. They think of her as an old lady and they picture her on those ponies towards the end of her life. It was clearly important, those, was it daily rides she went on towards the end of her life?

• 45:23Speaker 04

  Um, well, we, obviously, well, uh, four years before she passed, I mean, I was 69 years old and, and, uh, again, riding past Frogmore, I did, it's, it's weird how, how things happen when we rode past there. Again, she just looked across at me and she said, I want you to promise me something. And I said, well, okay, what, what, what, what do you want? She said, I want you to promise me you'll never leave me for as long as I'm riding. Uh, and I, wow, you know, what's that all about? Uh, uh, so I said, well, I made light of it and I said, well, I am of retirement age, Your Majesty. And she just looked at me with, uh, that radiant smile that she had just straight in the eyes.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  And she said, guess what? And I said, what? She said, so am I. Um, so I, I, I caved in straight away and I said, if that's what you want, then of course I, I, I'll stay for as long as you, you need me. Uh, and then about three weeks, again, after that, uh, riding along the same strip of road. She said, you know what? You've done something for me. And I said, yes, I, I, I've made you the promise. And I said, we don't need to revisit it. I said, I'm a man of my word. I know that, she said, but, um, I've done something for you. And that's when she told me that she was gonna make me a military knight.

• 46:44Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 46:45Speaker 04

  Well, uh, to be a military knight, uh, you normally, you have to be a commissioned officer. Uh, military knights, uh, uh, they have to go to church on a Sunday, every Sunday, uh, and pray for what is the, what we call the Garter Knights. Uh, when the Garter Knights way back when would go off to fight the Crusades. They would always leave somebody to pray for their souls or whatever. So kind of that's what the military knights are. They were originally called the Paw Knights of Windsor, Arms Knights for want of another word. But, uh, it got resurrected and were now called a military knight.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. So now you can stay here as a military knight?

• 47:27Speaker 04

  Well, I, I'll, I, I think in a, in a, in a wisdom, it was probably saying thank you to me for one. Uh, and then I promised that I, I did promise her I would look after Emma for the rest of her life.

• 47:41Speaker 02

  And Emma coincidentally is the name of your daughter?

• 47:43Speaker 04

  No, no, well, it is my daughter, but Emma the pony.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Exactly. No, I just, I thought, oh, what an interesting coincidence. Who chooses the names of the, the Queen's ponies and horses?

• 47:54Speaker 04

  Emma came with her name. Um, I actually bought Emma her pony, uh, as a seven-year-old off a lovely man up in, uh, Botmashapfell actually, called Tommy Capstick. Um, I approached a lady by the name of Lizzie Bryant, they used to show our ponies, and said, look, I need to get the Queen off, uh, a horse, uh, and get her lowered to the ground. She's, as she's aging and, uh, and we don't need her to come off a horse. Otherwise Pendry's name is gonna be in the history books all for the wrong reason. She isn't gonna bounce at that age. And, uh, Lizzie said, I haven't got one, but leave it with me. I'll find you one. Uh, and she did. She found, uh, Emma, but her full name is Colton Lima Emma.

• 48:39Speaker 04

  Tommy had her sold to, uh, Holland, uh, and she said, I said, well, I rang him and said, look, I said, could I purchase the pony on behalf of the Queen? And she said, well, if you do, I said, I could stop the purchase going through to Holland, but I want paying in pound notes. So I said, with the Queen's face on, that's what I want. I said, Tommy, I'm really sorry. I said, the Queen doesn't deal in cash. I said, but, uh, she has a bank called Coots. I said, um, she's good for it. I can assure you she's good for it. Uh, so anyway, he gave in, so I bought the pony as a seven year old. And Queen struck up a very good relationship with him.

• 49:17Speaker 02

  And what does that mean, a good relationship between the Queen and the pony? What, what, what was that?

• 49:21Speaker 04

  Well, again, as I said, she could have easily been a farmer's wife.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  No, no, but I mean with the actual individual pony, what was it?

• 49:28Speaker 04

  Oh, with the pony, Queen was just a natural. Emma's sort of had a thick sense with her. Uh, uh, uh, Emma was just, just, uh, not only just a very comfortable riding pony, but she just had that wonderful, unique relationship with her, with, with her. And, uh, it's a gift, without a shadow of doubt, it's a gift.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  And would she go out riding several days a week?

• 49:51Speaker 04

  As often as she could, um.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Same time of day usually?

• 49:55Speaker 04

  At same time, uh, look, you could set your clock on the Duke of Edinburgh at nine o'clock in the morning. He was ramrod straight and he'd walk from the castle. It didn't matter if it was snowing, raining, gale, whatever, he was there on the dot every day. Majesty was slightly different, um, she could receive telephone calls. Um, obviously affairs of state, the red boxes never stopped coming, of course. Um, but if she rode and could ride, uh, the Queen's page would let me know either the evening before, Her Majesty would like to ride, or they would ring me at first thing in the morning and when she woke up and went through for her breakfast, uh, and she would come down at ten thirty.

• 50:38Speaker 04

  Ten thirty was her time to ride and she'd enjoy an hour. Uh, and then she'd go around with her brown, brown paper bag full of carrots. After that, round the stable and she'd give every horse in the yard a carrot.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  I'm looking forward to doing that with you in a minute. Uh, and you would be there waiting with the pony that she was going to ride on?

• 50:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  And did you always ride on the same pony yourself?

• 50:59Speaker 04

  No, I, I'd swap and change around, but, uh, she, I always tried whatever the Queen was riding. Uh, Emma or horses as it were in those days, but, uh, we'd have it ready next to the mountain block. Um, as she aged, um, I used to have to, once a year, put another step on it, you know, but, uh, she actually ended up being smaller than, uh, Queen Elizabeth. I mean, uh, her last four years that she was quite poorly. And I, I, I think actually when she asked me never to leave her, uh, um, I think in hindsight, and I, I did say this, uh, to, uh, my wife Sue, that I, I think in hindsight, that's when she, they probably told her that she wasn't very well.

• 51:41Speaker 04

  Uh, and then of course Covid hit, um, so that was difficult.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  And were you in a, a cocoon, whatever they call?

• 51:48Speaker 04

  Uh, Queen was in, they, they put her in a bubble.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, were you in a bubble with her?

• 51:52Speaker 04

  Uh, I was what I call the outer bubble. Uh, in her bubble was, uh, uh, um, she was in her, in her bubble, but, uh, I, I used to ring her or she'd ring me quite often of talking about horses, racehorses or whatever. But I think she used to do that more out of boredom, um, uh, and obviously wanted to know how the horses were down here. And then obviously we'd talk about a racehorse, she'd enjoy that. Uh, and I said, look, you know, you, you, you need to get out and get some fresh air. I said, you'll seize up, I mean, no disrespect at the, at the age you are, uh, um, uh, you know, you, you've got to keep moving, you must keep exercising.

• 52:33Speaker 04

  And I said, come down into Frogmore Gardens as soon as you can, as soon as they release you. Uh, and you're out of the way of cameras there, no one can see you and, and, and you, you can have a little bit of exercise on Emma. Uh, just riding around the garden and, and that's what we did. I used to sneak Emma down into Frogmore Gardens and, and she'd enjoy a ride in the garden. Uh, and, and it was important to get some oxygen into her lungs, uh, uh, and that she could, uh, enjoy, um, you know, just, just general way of life. She used to love, love the seasons, um, particularly, uh, the autumn. She used to love crunching through leaves, kicking leaves through with the horse's feet.

• 53:18Speaker 04

  She adored that, I don't know why, she just did.

• 53:21Speaker 02

  And the last time you remember going out riding with her, when was that?

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Uh, riding, uh, the, the very last time with her, it wasn't a ride, I walked. There was two times, uh, the last, the very last day that she rode was the eighteenth of July. She rode on the sixteenth in the riding school. Uh, she was very quite frail, I mean, I, I could, she could go up on the mountain block and step onto Emma, but I always used to have to lift her off. Um, but, um, but.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  That's a great age, she was then ninety six, I mean.

• 53:55Speaker 04

  Well, uh, and, uh, I'll tell you this little story, her very last riding day was the eighteenth of July. She got onto Emma and again I walked, I was on my feet, uh, walking around with her and she, she looked down to me, this, this hasn't happened to me since I was a princess. I said, what? I said, someone walking alongside me like this. And I said, well, if you want me to step away, I'll step away or I'll go and get another pony, I'll ride with you. No, no, she'd just walk with me. Uh, and I said, well, let me take a picture of you. She said, what do you want to do that for? I said, well, you'd like one for your scrapbook. Um, I said, uh, your pony's twenty six, you're ninety six, that, that has to be a record.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  I suppose you're right, and I took it up that evening and she would paste it. She had a little glue stick and she would just paste it in her, in her little scrapbook and, and write a sentence underneath. She drove down on the nineteenth in, in her, in her car, not, not to ride. But I didn't even know she was coming, I didn't think she was coming. I'd already said my goodbyes to her on the eighteenth, uh, and, and said, enjoy Balmoral. Uh, and I said, I wish I was coming, but, uh, you're not going to ride, so it's no point me coming. Um, she said, well, if you'd like to come, you can come. And I said, no, it would be wrong of, wrong of me, because I would only be taking the accommodation of somebody that was working, and I said, that wouldn't be fair.

• 55:24Speaker 04

  What she was really thinking, well, she's going to dip out on her wild raspberry jam, because Sue, my wife, made a wild raspberry jam, uh, uh, while we were up there, she adored it. Uh, none of the adults were allowed it, but the grandchildren and the great grandchildren were allowed a spoonful, but no one else, she said, that's mine. She loved anything natural, um. Uh, but on the last day, uh, uh, she, she, uh, uh, I took the picture up to her and, and gifted it to her, uh, and she drove down the very next day. Uh, and she just came down for a chat and a final goodbye to Emma. Whether she was kind of, uh, thinking about things, I, I, I don't know, I, I truly don't.

• 56:09Speaker 04

  But, but she just looked at me and said, you were very rude to me yesterday. I said, um, Your Majesty, I'm awfully sorry, but what you mean rude is you, you were very rude to me yesterday. And I said, well, if I was, I apologize profusely. I said, it wouldn't have been intentional and I apologize. Was it something I said? Yes, she said it was. I said, well, what was it? She said, you said my age. And then she burst into fits of laughter, fits of laughter. That was just her, that was just her.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  So that's your last memory of being with her?

• 56:43Speaker 04

  Last time I ever saw her.

• 56:45Speaker 02

  And when, when did you hear? You obviously weren't totally surprised when you heard the news of her death.

• 56:49Speaker 04

  No, I kind of knew, I, uh, look, uh, uh, when I used to lift her off a pony, um, she was getting lighter and lighter and frailer and frailer. I mean, I, I, I, I had an inkling that, uh, that was probably the last time I was going to see her.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  And on the eighth of September, when you heard the news, somebody obviously phoned you or you heard it on the.

• 57:08Speaker 04

  Grand Ekri rang me to say that, that, uh, that Her Majesty had taken a, a turn for the worse. And, uh, I, I, I, I already had a sixth sense that things weren't right.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  And what then was your reflection on the twenty eight and a half years so close to her?

• 57:26Speaker 04

  Uh, what a privilege, what a privilege it's been, uh, to have served such a wonderful, wonderful lady. We'll just hold it there.

• 57:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure.

• 57:36Speaker 04

  I want, I want to read something, if that's okay, is that okay?

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Hmm, of course it is, lovely.

• 57:42Speaker 04

  It's something I do in my talk.

• 57:45Speaker 04

  Okay, I'm ready then.

• 57:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 04

  I suppose to the most remarkable lady in the world, who was never supposed to be our queen. She served with such grace and dignity. She was not just queen of our country, queen of the Commonwealth, but probably queen of the world. For me personally, it was my humble duty, my honour, my privilege to have served a most remarkable lady in the world for two thirds of my life. Twenty-eight and a half years direct. I would do it all over again in a heartbeat. Every medal I have on my chest, I would throw away, give them away, just have one more day with her. I've just been honoured and privileged.

• 58:32Speaker 04

  Just, just truly, truly a remarkable woman.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  It's beautiful. Before we stop and go for our little walk, how did you come to be involved so intimately in the funeral, the funeral procession back here? How did that happen? Whose idea was that?

• 58:52Speaker 04

  My own. I was actually invited to go to Her Majesty's funeral at Westminster. And I said, well, and Sue? No, no, no, just you. And I said, uh-uh. I said, no, Sue and I, we're a team. I said, we've been a team, we always will be a team. I said, no, I'll be here for when she comes home. For the committal. Always knowing that what I was going to do. We'd already done the same sort of thing for, again, I'm going to call him the old man, the Duke of Edinburgh.

• 59:31Speaker 04

  They'd put his carriage up there and his sugar lumps and his gloves on the box seat. Which was very poignant. No, no one realised what was in there, but it was, he always gave his pony sugar lumps.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  So as regards Emma and myself, I didn't dare tell anybody because they'd maybe tried to stop me doing it. And I wasn't, I wasn't going to have any of that. So I took it upon myself to, I went to Angela Kelly and said, I need one of the Queen's scarves. And she was, she didn't want me to have it.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  This was the Queen's dresser?

• 1:00:12Speaker 04

  Angela, yeah, yeah, yeah. She thought, well, no, you can't, you can't, you mustn't. And I said, well, I'm going to and I will. And she, you have to give me one of her headscarves. I want to put it on the Queen's sheepskin. I need to pay my last respects with Emma. Anyway, she caved in and she gave me the Hermes scarf that she, it was one of her favourites.

• 1:00:42Speaker 04

  That's what I did. And it was such a real, I mean, I think there was about a hundred thousand people down that long walk. And all you could hear was like just whispers. It was unbelievable.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  And it was simply your idea? You decided?

• 1:01:00Speaker 04

  My own idea, I didn't dare tell anybody.

• 1:01:02Speaker 02

  Just Emma, you thought, I'll take Emma?

• 1:01:03Speaker 04

  I was always invited, both Sue and I, to the committal service. I had to work out how I could, once Her Majesty's coffin had passed me, how I was going to get, hand Emma over and get round the moat garden and to the castle, to the chapel before she did. Anyway, I, it was, it was our last race, if you like.

• 1:01:34Speaker 04

  But anyway, I managed to get there in good time and be there for, for the Queen's committal service.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  Those of us who were watching it, we almost felt that Emma knew the moment, we knew what was happening. You obviously got her to bow her head at the appropriate moment.

• 1:01:53Speaker 04

  It's almost as if we both knew. And again, whether, call it faith, what, I don't know, but I don't know animals, animals, it was a bit like Queen Elizabeth, Queen Mother, when, when the Queen picked her dogs up. Never went going back into that room ever again. Whether, I don't know, it's such a surreal, surreal moment. Whether she had an inner sense, I don't know, I don't know. I'm actually taking Emma up to the Guards Polo on the eighth.

• 1:02:26Speaker 04

  It's a Major General's Cup final, but it just happens to be the same day that, of the Queen's death. So I'm actually going to take Emma up for the second anniversary.

• 1:02:38Speaker 02

  Well, you're going to take us to meet Emma now, which is exciting.

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, we would do that.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  And the new King's charger.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, noble, yeah, noble is lovely man.

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• 1:03:25Speaker 01

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• 1:04:31Speaker 02

  We're going outside. Oh, it is raining today here at Windsor. We're leaving their lovely house full of memorabilia. Every wall is packed with pictures of the Queen, many of them with Terry. And we're coming up the stairs, out into the Royal Muse, and we're going to go and find Emma. Not Terry's daughter, Emma, the Queen's pony. We're going through now the, this is the Royal Riding School? Oh my, oh, this is huge. Oh.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness. So what would happen in here?

• 1:05:06Speaker 04

  This is, this is the place that the Queen rode for the last, the last time. I took a picture of her underneath the Union Flag there. That was my old office, Queen Victoria's viewing gallery. And that Queen Victoria used to sit up there as she aged and couldn't ride anymore. Slide the window up and she could talk to everybody that was in here. There's a busk of a horse up there called Hammond, a live horse.

• 1:05:36Speaker 04

  That was one of her favourite riding horses, Queen Victoria. Given to her by the King of Prussia, died when it was 27 years old.

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  So that our Queen's love of horses, really, it was inherited from Queen Victoria? I didn't realise Queen Victoria was so enthusiastic.

• 1:05:50Speaker 04

  All the way, all the way through the Royals. I mean, the Victorians didn't have cars, did they? Everything was done by carriage and riding. But Albert and Victoria rode an awful lot and they've ridden in here. Queen Victoria also on one of her jubilees. William Cody, Buffalo Bill.

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  Buffalo Bill and Annie Oakley and The Dead were staged. They brought it through that door here.

• 1:06:17Speaker 04

  They stayed in Earl's Court in London for six months with a Wild West show. And they came down and did a production of it in here. And Annie Oakley, I've looked everywhere for bullets and I can't see anywhere Annie Oakley firing at guns. They must have been blanks.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  Have Queen Victoria watching?

• 1:06:37Speaker 04

  In that window up there, there was more Crown, heads of state up in that room.

• 1:06:45Speaker 04

  Royal family looking down on their actual show itself.

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Buffalo Bill and Annie Oakley. We're treading in the footsteps of Buffalo Bill and Annie Oakley. I love it.

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  You certainly are.

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  So, but the 18th of July, your last time with her on, on the horse, was in here, was it?

• 1:07:00Speaker 04

  Right there underneath that Union Flag there, opposite the Mary.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:07:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Because she was so frail, you couldn't really go out, couldn't really go outside.

• 1:07:08Speaker 04

  With two days on the 16th of July and the last riding day in here, just walking around, I was on my feet. Just walking alongside her and Emma. Yeah.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:07:20Speaker 04

  Wow, what memories.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  So where are we now?

• 1:07:29Speaker 04

  This is the middle court. This is Her Majesty's, where she kept all her horses and ponies. This is her mounting block. One, two, three, four, five, six steps. It started off as just four and it kept adding on and adding on and adding on. But this is where she, the last day she got on Emma was up there. If you go up there and stand on it, she could just slip straight on to Emma.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Oh bless her.

• 1:07:54Speaker 04

  Lift her off. Yeah, help her off.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  Bless her. We're going, now here we go. This, we're coming into the stable now. Oh, look, Jubilee 2012. Oh, look, this is Noble. Noble.

• 1:08:10Speaker 04

  Noble is very, very precious. This is the first horse gifted to His Majesty the King. She's now an eight-year-old. She was seven when she came from Canada. All our chargers are black, predominantly black.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  What does it mean being a charger?

• 1:08:27Speaker 04

  For Troopne Color and the like, when you see any member of the royal family on Troopne Color, they're sat on there, what we call their chargers. And the King was gifted this. This is the first horse gifted to him. Obviously, all the other chargers were gifted to Her Majesty the Queen.

• 1:08:44Speaker 02

  And there's a tradition that's from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

• 1:08:47Speaker 04

  Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Ever since Burmese, 1969, we've always had Canadian chargers since then. Predominantly black. They breed black. They're Hanoverian cross thoroughbred, predominantly Hanoverian, but black.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  Now, she is a beautiful animal. This is clearly a really beautiful animal.

• 1:09:06Speaker 04

  But yeah, she's a beautiful horse. She could be as important, really, as Burmese was to the Queen. Noble would be equally important to His Majesty the King.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  And has he come to see her yet?

• 1:09:20Speaker 04

  Oh, he's been down, yeah. Absolutely, he's been down many times, many times.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  So he knows Noble.

• 1:09:27Speaker 04

  He's ridden her. He rode her on the first, on Troopne Color. They said that she was a little bit, I rode her on the very first one. I had to give the green light. I rode her on the first two rehearsals and she was very, very, very good. On the time that he rode, his reins were just slightly too short. He and the Prince of Wales still ride their horses as if they're riding polo ponies, which they, I call it the knitting. You have four reins and they actually ride too short. If they let out their reins a little bit and let their horses relax, then they get a much better ride. And he's realised now how to do that.

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  You've told him?

• 1:10:10Speaker 04

  Of course I told him.

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  And he didn't respond as his father might have done?

• 1:10:13Speaker 04

  Actually, he did a little bit. But I said, well, it's your choice. That's why, your choice. If you want a decent ride, let out your knitting six inches and the mare will be perfectly okay. You have to be honest with it. You can't be anything but honest.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  Well, she is beautiful, really beautiful. And now we said goodbye to Noble, the King's charger, and followed Terry along the stable block to meet Emma, the black fell pony who was Queen Elizabeth's favourite.

• 1:10:47Speaker 04

  Hello. Oh, she's been rolling. She's been rolling. Hello, you. She's been rolling. Right.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  Oh, bless her.

• 1:11:05Speaker 04

  Her full name, Colton Lima Emma, but just Emma.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  And what is her story? Where did you come across her?

• 1:11:12Speaker 04

  As I said, I bought her off a man by the name of Tommy Capsty. From Shatfeld. She's now 28 years old.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  This is Emma's rosebud moment. And I have to say, she's salivating. She's licking the microphone virtually. And Harriet, our producer, oops, oh, she sneezed. A right royal sneeze. And why did the Queen form a special relationship with Emma? What was it about Emma and the Queen that?

• 1:11:43Speaker 04

  Obviously, as she aged and she just really comforted. The footfall of her and the comfort. And she just had that way. The Queen with her hands, I mean, she had a wonderful, she could have been a surgeon. I mean, she had, when you gather your reins up, you know, and the way you ride, I mean, she had hands like, I mean, silk-like. And she's just connected with her straight away, just absolutely straight away. And obviously, that brown bag of carrots helped an awful lot. Every time that brown bag of carrots was there. And Emma knew the rustle of the brown bag.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  Recognised it.

• 1:12:27Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  The Queen's coming, the rustle of the brown bag, and the carrots then appeared.

• 1:12:32Speaker 04

  Paper brown bag, yes, that's right. Look, she's really a Chelsea pensioner. She's up there. She should actually be in the Royal Hospital in London with a triangular hat on her head. She's 28 years old.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  So in human years, that's very old.

• 1:12:50Speaker 04

  She's well up there.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Look, Terry, that was a most amazing visit here. I mean, incredible, what a story. And I've seen you, I've seen your lovely wife, Sue. I feel I've been with the Queen today and I've been with Emma, who has been amazing. And you're going to end your days here at Windsor Castle, yes?

• 1:13:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'll end up in the walls of St George's Chapel.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  Why is that?

• 1:13:12Speaker 04

  Well, military nights, that's where they end their days. You end your days here and then your funeral is held in St George's Chapel. And then your remains are put in the walls. There's some old scallywags in there now and I'll be joining them.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  So you will be here. Her Majesty the Queen, of course, is here. Where does Emma, when she ends up? Because she's 28 as well, isn't she?

• 1:13:41Speaker 04

  I promised the Queen that I would plant, I'll plant her. I will bury her, or at least her remains, probably her ashes. And they'll go between Burmese, who was her last horse she rode on Troopne Color, and the last horse she ever rode, which was a dear, dear horse that she rode sanctioned. She will go between the two.

• 1:14:04Speaker 02

  Lovely. Well, look, thank you so much, Terry, for sharing your memories of Elizabeth II.

• 1:14:09Speaker 04

  It's a privilege. I'm happy to share it with you and thank you so very much for coming.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

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