Dame Maggie Aderin

Our guest today is the scientist, broadcaster and presenter of The Sky At Night, Dame Maggie Aderin. In this moving conversation, Dame Maggie tells Gyles about her childhood - and her parents' long custody battle, which often led to upheaval for Maggie and her sisters. She talks about her early interest in space, and joining a telescope-making club as a teenager. She talks about thinking big and not taking no for an answer. She talks about "Maggie-isms" and being unusual. This is a fabulous edition of Rosebud with one of our foremost science communicators and educators. Dame Maggie's book, Starchild, My LIfe Under the NIght Sky, is out now and available here https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/468362/starchild-by-aderin-maggie/9781785949449. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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  Hello, I'm Jos Brandreth, and I'm wearing a sweater today that was once worn by Diana, Princess of Wales. Yes, I designed a sweater that Diana bought in Kensington in the 1980s. On the front, it carries the words, "I'm a luxury." And on the back, it says, "Few can afford." Well, I have to think that Rosebud is a luxury we can all afford. Welcome to it. Cue the music.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Welcome to Rosebud. And unusually, my guest today on Rosebud is a scientist. I don't think we've had enough of them, but I think you will feel at the end of this one, we can't get enough of this one, because she is extraordinary. She is Dame Maggie Aderin. And if you've come across her before, it may be like me, because you enjoyed the program The Sky at Night. She's been the presenter of that for the last 10 years or so. She succeeded Patrick Moore in that role. And she's well-known as a space scientist, recognized as such getting an MBE for services to science education. And she's had honorary degrees, awards all over the place. She's served as president of the British Science Association. She became chancellor of the University of Leicester in 2023

• 3:28Speaker 02

  and was awarded a Damehood for services to science, education and diversity. I think she tells an amusing story in this conversation about her encounter with Queen Elizabeth II. She's unusual, too, because I think she's our first guest, who is also a Barbie doll. Yes, Mattel made a Barbie out of Maggie Aderin in 2023, because it was unveiled as part of International Women's Day, because she is a remarkable role model. But the reason I'm really interested to be talking to her today is that I have read her childhood memoir, Star Child. And really, it's her childhood that explains everything.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  If you're interested in what makes a human being human and how you can survive and thrive in a very challenging childhood, you will want to listen to Maggie Aderin's story. Okay, so this is Maggie Aderin on Rosebud. Enjoy and cue the music.

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Maggie, I'm calling you Maggie so boldly, partly because your whole name, I'm not sure I'm going to pronounce any of it right. What is your full name?

• 4:56Speaker 03

  Full name, but the full name and title is Dame Dr. Maggie Aderin.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Very good. And you've got a middle name as well?

• 5:02Speaker 03

  Yes, Ebula.

• 5:03Speaker 02

  Ebula. And what is Ebula? Where does that come from?

• 5:06Speaker 03

  It's Nigerian, and it means, very generously, I think from my father, "gift from God."

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Quite right, too. And Aderin?

• 5:13Speaker 03

  Aderin, this is the Yoruba tribe. And yeah, Aderin is a Yoruba name.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Very good. And I have a question to ask you. You were born, I hope I've got this right, on the 9th of March, 1968?

• 5:24Speaker 03

  That's correct, yes.

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Good. So we're virtually twins. I'm smaller than the 8th of March, but 20 years before you.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  A mere 20 years.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  A mere 20 years. And appearances are deceptive, aren't they? Because we almost look the same age. We look as if we're both in our late 30s.

• 5:40Speaker 03

  We're both doing very well, I can just say.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  That is the right thing to say. Now, look.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Yuri Gagarin was born on the 9th of March. So I am the first person in space.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Yuri Gagarin. I was thinking about Yuri Gagarin recently, because I was a commentator for the Trooping the Colour,

• 6:01Speaker 02

  which is an event that celebrates the sovereign's birthday. And I remember the first Trooping the Colour that I attended, which was in 1961. And to my amazement, my father took me to this event. It was being broadcast to the Soviet Union. And in the commentary box was, wait for it, Yuri Gagarin. He was the commentator on Trooping the Colour in 1961.

• 6:25Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  The first man in space came to London, and I saw him.

• 6:29Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yay. So you're in the presence of somebody who saw Yuri Gagarin in the flesh?

• 6:36Speaker 03

  I'm going to tell a bougie tale as well.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:38Speaker 03

  Because during COVID, during lockdown, I had a Zoom call with the Queen. And she, I don't know if it was for the same, 1961, but she met Yuri Gagarin, because he came over, probably for the Trooping the Colour, actually. And she was saying, and I said, so what was he like? And she said, Russian. Everybody just started laughing.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  She was very sharp, the Queen, isn't she? I think that tells us everything we need to know about Yuri Gagarin. He was Russian.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  I know.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Very good.

• 7:11Speaker 03

  Very much so.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Well, I'm going to be dropping a few names during our conversation.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  Perfect.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  But it is going to be all about you, Maggie. And we're going to begin, as we always do, by me asking you, what, Maggie Aderin, is your very first memory?

• 7:26Speaker 03

  My main first memory is me about four years old. And it's just before my sister, my youngest sister, was born. And I remember running my house, being very excited that there was a new baby. And everybody referred to it as "the baby." And I was excited to meet the baby. And then, when my sister was born at home, and when she was born, I ran into the living room, and there she was, and she was being washed in this big yellow tub. And this was one of my first memories. And then they kept on calling her Gracie. And I thought, who's Gracie? I don't want Gracie. I want the baby. And so that was one of my first memories. But then I remember seeing her. She wasn't very well. She was born at home and was sent to hospital. And seeing her as a little squirmy thing in an incubator. So that was my first formative memories.

• 8:11Speaker 03

  But in writing my memoir, I had this, I heard a piece of music, and it's Scarlet Ribbons, sang by Harry Belafontaine, I think.

• 8:20Speaker 02

  How does it go?

• 8:21Speaker 03

  Scarlet ribbons, scarlet ribbons, scarlet ribbons for her hair. And I remember hearing this as a child. So I must have been about two and a half, three years old, because it's before my sister Gracie was born. And my mother used to play it to me, because I'm a total insomniac. And I can see why now. I have dyslexia and ADHD, so sleep is not my friend. And so my mother used to play this to me. And I remember her being all dressed up. And I remember the smell of her perfume and just lying in bed, all sort of quiet and comfortable. And I didn't want to go to sleep, because I knew if I went to sleep, she'd go away. And so I'm trying to sort of stay awake, listening to this beautiful music. And I drifted off.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  I love that as a proper first memory. It's beautiful. Tell me all about your mother. What what is her name and where did she come from? What is her story and who was she when you were born?

• 9:13Speaker 03

  So my mother is a Carol, a sort of a Carol Bissy Way, but it was her maiden name. And she had an adventurous life. So she was born in Nigeria and I think her parents were quite affluent. I don't really know. I never met my grandfather on either side, actually.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  When were this have been? In the nineteen forties or late nineteen thirties?

• 9:35Speaker 03

  Oh, nineteen forties, I think, because my mother's thirty years older than me.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  So nineteen thirty eight should have been born.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  Yes, nineteen thirty eight. That's great. And so I think she was sort of, I think she told me she had a British governess. And so I think she was brought up with clipped accents and but in a sort of a fairly affluent. Although I don't know, I don't know if it was a warm family, from what I've heard from her. It was they were all a little distant, but I think she met my father, fell in love.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  What was his name?

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Oh, Justice, Justice Biodarren.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Justice, as in justice?

• 10:09Speaker 03

  Justice.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  My gosh, no wonder he regarded you as a gift from God. And he was the man who didn't just administer justice, he was justice. And was he because of that quite a formidable figure?

• 10:21Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, he was warm and wonderful. Oh, yes. Unfortunately, he passed sort of just over twenty years ago.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  So how did they meet and what age were they when they met?

• 10:32Speaker 03

  So I think my mother was quite young. My father was a little older. I think my father was teaching my mother possibly an evening class. And I think there might have been some disapproval when they met, but I think they met and sort of ran away together.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Why would there have been disapproval?

• 10:46Speaker 03

  Well, I think for my mother's family, a fairly affluent family, my father's, my father's father, my grandfather was a vicar in Nigeria and the religion is steeped in my family. So my my grandfather was effectively a vicar. My uncle became an Archbishop in Nigeria. And I lived in a vicarage for a number of years as a child.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Give me an Archbishop is a big deal.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  The uncle Archbishop. Do you remember him?

• 11:16Speaker 03

  Oh, yes. The main thing I remember about him is he looked just like my father. And so when I miss my father, I used to see him and he was, yes, and also a very kind and jolly man.

• 11:26Speaker 02

  So your grandfather was a vicar?

• 11:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  And your father was what when?

• 11:30Speaker 03

  Oh, so teacher.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  He was a teacher, which is of course excellent profession, but she came from a well to do family. And they were anxious that it might be she might be marrying beneath her.

• 11:40Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 11:41Speaker 02

  Was there a tribal element to this? Because as we know, Nigeria, the tribal issue is important.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Yes, and I don't think so. I think they both hail from the Yoruba tribe, so I don't think there were any issues.

• 11:50Speaker 02

  They were both Yoruba, but they were as a class difference.

• 11:53Speaker 03

  I believe so, yes.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  So what did you? Did they ever give you any indication of why? Because they ran off together. They didn't have a formal wedding. What happened?

• 12:01Speaker 03

  Yes, I see. That was my understanding. And I don't know. You see, my parents split up when I was four. And so they never really spoke about their early lives and things like that. My father did say that when he first came to the UK, it was horribly cold. Because he came by boat to the UK.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Why did they come? Were they married by the time they came?

• 12:21Speaker 03

  Well, I had a younger sister, so technically, well, I'm not sure they were married.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  I don't think the grandpa, the vicar, would necessarily have approved.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  I don't. I think she was quite laid back as well, but I don't know how laid back.

• 12:34Speaker 02

  So your parents came over?

• 12:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Either separately or together?

• 12:38Speaker 03

  Separately, I know, because my father came to the UK first, leaving my younger sister and my mother behind. So my oldest sister and my mother behind. So that was Sue, who was born in Nigeria. But me and my two other sisters were born in the UK.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  Gracie.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, Gracie and Hal. So there's Sue, Hal, then me, then Gracie.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  So mum and Sue stay in Nigeria.

• 13:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Dad, Justice, comes to the UK to do what? To teach, to improve himself? To study medicine?

• 13:09Speaker 03

  Yes, that was his goal. He was quite a scientist. I'd like to see, if he lived in the Victorian era, he would have been a gentleman scientist. Because he was so inquisitive about everything. And he decided that he wanted to come to the UK and study medicine and make a name for himself that way.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Have you any recollections at all of them together, of you you being with them together? And what would that recollection be?

• 13:32Speaker 03

  So not many, because they split up when I was about, actually, well, Gracie was quite young. She was only about a sort of, I think she was about six months to a year old when they split up.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  And do you know why they split up? Was it the challenge of after Gracie was born with her not being very well? Did that create tension? Did you ever talk about it with your mother?

• 13:54Speaker 03

  No, and I don't think it was that. I think she wanted to expand her horizons. But it was fairly, at the time, it was amicable, because my father helped set my mother up in a sweet shop in East London. I think my mother found someone else, maybe.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Often when people say maybe, it means that's what happened. But I, how good you are to be discreet about it.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  Yes. And also, that's not my story, that's hers.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  Indeed, it is her story. So let's take, let's get, take you back. Your mother comes over, she follows your father.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  They live and you're for a while, is it in Islington where you are?

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Yes, that's I'm born, born at home in Islington.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  You're born at home in Islington. And so for the first four years, you're living with your parents. You can't really remember the detail of that. You do remember Grace's arrival and you know that soon after, your parents split up.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  We're not entirely sure why, but there may have been a man in the case, maybe.

• 14:50Speaker 03

  Yes, a vicar, I think, sort of more religion.

• 14:54Speaker 02

  These vicars, honestly, you can't keep a good vicar down. Grandpa, the vicar, approved of them running off and having children out of wedlock, and then she runs off with another vicar. Oh, my goodness. My uncle is the Archbishop.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  It's a roaring tale, let's put it that way.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  Were you brought up on the Carry On films by any chance?

• 15:18Speaker 03

  No, Betty, no, no, actually, no, that's Frank Swenson. Actually, I can see.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  We've got the idea of it anyway. So your father, who has become a doctor, has he?

• 15:29Speaker 03

  No.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Oh, what happened?

• 15:30Speaker 03

  That was one of his laments in life, that he never got. So he came to the UK. My mother and elder sister came soon after. And I think because he was focused on maintaining a family. So he had another three children after my mother and sister came over. And so, yes, he was mainly working to support a family rather than studying medicine.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  Well done him, actually.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  Yes, yes.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  He sacrificed his own life and career.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  To be a good father and homemaker.

• 16:01Speaker 03

  Yes. And also, I think he had, he was of the era where I think he wanted a son. And this is quite formative for me, because I always decided that I was going to be the son that he never had. I was going to be as good as any boy. And so this sort of set some goals in my life.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  So he had four girls.

• 16:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  When he left your mother, or they parted, forgive me, he didn't leave your mother, when they split up.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Did he eventually find a new partner?

• 16:25Speaker 03

  No, he never did.

• 16:27Speaker 02

  Fine. So he never had a son, as far as we know.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  He had these four girls, including this very special Maggie, who one day becomes Dame Maggie and is having Zoom calls with the Queen, chatting about Yuri Gagarin.

• 16:40Speaker 03

  It's a weird world.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  I hope most of this is true, because we have had occasionally guests. We had Harry Hill come on to this show and he invented up his whole life. Yours is sounding a little bit improbable, but I'm going along with this vicar line that you're taking.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Well, it's quite interesting, because in my autobiography, I make up a piece of scientific equipment. And it's called the Retrospectriscape. And also, it looks at something called the multiverse. So this is the idea that every decision we make in life leads to an alternative universe. And because, as you say, I'm Dame Maggie, I sort of, I do the sky at night and things like that. I try and look at all the decisions that led me to that possibility, because it is a very, very, very unlikely journey from where I started to be where I am. And so I keep on thinking that there must be many other Maggies out there, living very different lives. But I'm really glad to be this one, because I'm loving this one.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Going back now to you aged four, the time your parents do split up. What is your memory of being aware that your mother and your father are no longer together, that your family is not a family unit like so many others?

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  It's your first recollection of that.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  So it's actually trying, speaking to social workers and saying, so where, who do you want to stay with, your mother, your father? And one of the things is, I was, I still am, I call myself an empath. I think it's the neurodiversity. But one, I recount one occasion where I cried because I had bread instead of toast. So I'm a pretty sensitive child. And so trying to choose between parents, you know you're hurting someone. And that was very painful. But one of the decisions I made is I wanted to live with my mum, because she had, she had the sweet shop and she had access to lemon sherbets. I love lemon sherbets.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Because it was quite a prolonged custody battle, wasn't it, between your parents?

• 18:34Speaker 03

  It went on until I was probably fifteen. And but as a result, I racked up many schools. Because sometimes I was my mum, sometimes I ran away from home twice.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Well, just take this step by step. The social workers are involved because there is a dispute. Your parents can't amicably agree.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Because what my father wants is to keep all four daughters together. And my mother says that she wants the two elder sisters to go with my father and she will keep myself and my younger sister.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  And he disputes that?

• 19:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 19:06Speaker 02

  And the dispute goes on and on.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  And my relationship with my father was very, very close. Because he said, no, he wanted a boy. So I said, no, I'll be the boy. And then also, people often said I looked like him. And this made me so proud. I remember actually going up and shaving my hair to try and look more like him once. Because to me, he was, I don't know, the epitome of, I don't know, knowledge and fun. And I don't know, and just sort of, he seemed to have a good moral compass. If I followed his advice, I'm on the right direction.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  So did you say to the social workers, maybe dad? And who did you live with first?

• 19:46Speaker 03

  First, I lived with my mum. And I think as a four year old, I think the sweet shop did play a role in that. Because my mum was set up in the sweet shop. I liked sherbet lemons and say, yes, I think that had a slight swaying to my my decision.

• 19:59Speaker 02

  And how long were you with her?

• 20:00Speaker 03

  Not long, because I think my father wanted this ongoing battle. And I think he actually encouraged me to run away from my mother, to go and live with him. And so I have, one of my earliest memories is also being about four and a half years old, holding on to my younger sister's hand.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  This is Gracie.

• 20:20Speaker 03

  Gracie. And

• 20:23Speaker 03

  My father sort of arranging it so we sort of leave the house. I've got my wombo slippers on and I'm in my pyjamas and I'm outside hiding behind a bush. And then my father, my two elder sisters are talking to my mum. And we get, oops, we go into the car with my dad and he takes us over to his place. He was very determined to keep us all together.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  And you stayed then for a while with him?

• 20:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  But your mother succeeded in having you brought back to her.

• 20:47Speaker 03

  Yes, and so that was quite a few years later.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  So you stayed with him for quite a while?

• 20:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  So here you are with your father, where you're, are you feeling more at ease with your dad than your mum as you're moving between the two?

• 21:00Speaker 03

  Yes, I think when I wasn't with my father, I missed him horribly. And I did miss my mum and I got to know my mum a bit better. But my father was, I don't, it's like the relationship I have with my daughter, we were very, very close. And so much so, in fact, that my two elder sisters used to tell my father off because they said that I was his favourite. And they didn't like that. So my, yes, and so my father was the natural place for me to be because he inspired me in so, he used to teach me how to think. And we'd watch TV or something like that and he'd say, so why are they doing that or what's the behind that? And so just set scenarios where he'd ask questions. And I, I, I'm a very curious person as well. In fact, I think my father was probably dyslexic or neurodiverse anyway.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  And so we were kindred spirits in that way. But he taught me how to think and I can't think of a better gift.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  He's clearly the hero in your life story. But tell me about the sweetest recollection you have of your mother. What's the nicest time you can remember having with her?

• 21:58Speaker 03

  I remember, yes, her in the sweet shop because she was like a conductor. There's a wonderful author, Joanne Harris.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Joy.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  Ah, yes.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Well, you have her in common as well, of course.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  So I met her a few times and she wrote the wonderful book Chocolate.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 22:13Speaker 03

  Yes. And, and the woman in that was, she reminded me very much of my mother. Sort of a free spirit and in the sweet shop, my mother would conjure up, you know, some images, you know, in the shop window. Sort of displays where you to entice people in. And I remember, so she could create magic in all sorts of different ways.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  In your head, have you worked out ever what it was that made each of your parents so determined to continue this battle over the custody of the children for so many years?

• 22:41Speaker 03

  No, it's funny because now I'm, I'm a mother myself. I have a sixteen year old daughter. And so, no, I don't think I fully understand it.

• 22:53Speaker 03

  And see, my father's wish to keep the four girls together. And also I think when my father came to the UK, he saw the UK as quite a hostile place. Because this was sort of late fifties, early sixties and there were signs, so no blacks, no dogs, no Irish. And I think he felt that he was bringing out four daughters and how are they going to survive and maybe even thrive? And I think he saw education as the key. And to a certain extent, I think one of the reasons he wanted to keep us together was we could help each other. But also he wanted to make sure we got a good education. And so this was drummed into me when I was, I don't know, five, six years old, my father would say, so what Oxbridge College are you going to go to? So right from the get go, education was everything.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  And I think it's many immigrants, but especially many Nigerians, they see education as the key to, to success.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  And your mother had by then a boyfriend who became a kind of stepfather to you?

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Yes, and so, and so the vicar, which I think she ran off for, a lovely guy called Barry. He was, and they had moved into a vicarage in Hastings. And the problem is my father, my father's health was deteriorating. Because the, so he was sort of three kids, three daughters in boarding schools. And then my, my younger sister, when she came back from Nigeria, she was staying, I suppose with a foster family in, in China, in Oxfordshire. And so he was just trying to support us all. But I had a conversation with my elder sisters and they were saying, you know, dad, this is hard on dad. And.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  And he was suffering mentally and physically as well?

• 24:31Speaker 03

  I think physically he was surviving, but you could tell he'd come home and thinks I loved his company so much. And sometimes I'd go and sort of, he'd lie on the sofa and I'd go and lie next to him. I could hear his heartbeat and that was my happy place. That's where I felt, okay, I, I'm content here. This is where I want to be. But then my sisters pointed out that, you know, he was working hard, he was coming home, he needed his rest. He didn't need little Maggie sort of snuggling up to him. So I stopped doing that after a while.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  You went to how many schools during this moving? Like a ping pong between your parents?

• 25:03Speaker 03

  So I racked up thirteen in the end.

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Thirteen.

• 25:07Speaker 03

  I didn't realise.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  So analysing it, what do you think the effect on you now has been of this strange childhood between two parents, warring parents?

• 25:19Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Thirteen schools, different beds.

• 25:22Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  What, what's the effect been on you?

• 25:26Speaker 03

  So looking on the positive side, the glass half full, I think it makes me very adaptable. Some of the boarding schools, some of the schools I went to were, yeah, the local comprehensive. But some of the boarding schools I went to were sort of, yeah, sort of top class. You did an interview with India Hicks. She was at one of my boarding schools, Lord Mount Button's granddaughter. And so, yes, and so there was a wide variety of, and so it makes me feel that I can fit in anywhere. I feel at home in any situation. So I, I, I love that. But it also makes me very transitory. And also I'm not good at making and keeping friends. I'm a sort of, I'm an intense burst of energy, but then I don't know how to maintain that.

• 26:11Speaker 03

  And that makes me very sad because I meet lovely people and I don't really know how to keep in contact with them.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  And also maybe you're frightened to establish a relationship in case it suddenly disappears, it's taken away from you.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  I think that is definitely the case. And so there's a few people in my life who are critically important to me. But everybody else, I, I, I, yes, I think it is a fearful, a fearful extending that.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  So it's all resolved though, one way or another, by the time you're fourteen or fifteen?

• 26:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  And how is it resolved? What happens?

• 26:44Speaker 03

  So I'm living in the vicarage with my mum and my younger sister and Barry, the vicar. But their marriage starts to fall apart. And, and so, and I think, I suppose for two, two and a half years that we were living in the vicarage, I think that would be the closest that I was to a normal childhood. I did manage to rack up two schools while I was there. One school just closed, I didn't touch it, but it just closed down, which helped boost my numbers. But yeah, well, I was living a sort of fairly normal life, living at home with my mum and Barry and, and Gracie. But then their marriage started to implode, literally, and it was getting worse and worse. And so my mother was going to leave, leave the vicarage and she was going to leave and move out to the countryside.

• 27:28Speaker 03

  I was just coming up to my GCSEs. And in the back of my mind, there was always, oh, you should be working harder because education is the key to, you know, social mobility, everything. And so, so living in this environment, I felt that my education wasn't going to thrive. Also, my younger sister Gracie, her education wasn't thriving. And my father gave us the opportunity to go and live with him. And so as my mother's marriage was imploding, we ran away again. And so fourteen now, sort of very much cognizant of what I was doing. But I left my mother and went and lived with my father. And again, the hurt I caused my mother by doing that still lives with me today.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Yes, you feel you deserted her in.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  A time of need. Yes, I do. And, but then, but see, for me, this was an opportunity. And I always say that, yeah, I try and grab opportunities with both hands. Because by the time I got, so this was my final school, my thirteenth school. I got there and this was a school in Camden in London, but they had no record of me at all. Because, well, I've been so many different schools, they didn't have anything. And so they said, oh, so Maggie, what stream should you be in, you know, top stream, middle stream, lower stream? Now, all my life with the dyslexia, which I didn't know I had, and sort of being a black kid, you know, I was always at the back of the class. And so, but I thought, this is my chance, you know, if I was going to get an education, this was it. So I said I should be in the top stream.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  So, and so they put me in the top stream. And as with ADHD and dyslexia, you sometimes get hyper fixations. And so education became my hyper fixation. All my life, I've dreamed about getting into space. It's been the driving force of mine. I can't remember a time I didn't want to get into space.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  You can't remember a time, so you're not going to be able to answer the question of when was the first time you thought about space? Because it's always been there.

• 29:18Speaker 03

  Yes, I can see the influences. So going back, I was born in nineteen sixty eight, nineteen sixty nine, the moon landings happened. I don't remember them, but I was caught up in that buzz of excitement. And, and, and later when I heard about, you know, people like Eureka Garing going out there into space, it's like, whoa. And then the Clangers, I used to watch the Clangers.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  The television series?

• 29:37Speaker 03

  Yes. So little mousy creatures.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  I remember them, I can picture them.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Pointy noses.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  Pointy noses, living out on a planet out there.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Peter Furman, Oliver Postgate, I knew them both.

• 29:47Speaker 03

  No, did you?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  I, of course I did. Of course I did.

• 29:52Speaker 03

  Out of all the people you've mentioned, that, that's one.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  They're real heroes for you.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  Yes, because the Clangers were just so beautiful and, and just so sweet. And so I used to watch them, oh, they live in space, I want to go into space. So the moon landings, the Clangers, and it's funny, I always say the Clangers are a gateway drug. Because you start watching Clangers and before you know it, you're watching Star Trek.

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• 32:52Speaker 02

  And were you looking out into space and wanting to be with the Clangers because you wanted to get away from this world? Because it was a bit of a nightmare? And is, I mean, I-

• 33:02Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, I think that's definitely- Because to me, space represented something that transcended. Earth seems like a troublesome place, especially for an emotional child. And so, space, what I loved is that you space- Growing up, I didn't feel I belonged anywhere. I would speak to my relatives that came over from Nigeria. And I'd say, Maggie, you're a lost Nigerian. You don't speak the language. You're quite British, really. You're not really a Nigerian. You've never been there. And so, I thought, oh, I don't belong that into that camp. But this is the 1970s, growing up. And so, sometimes I'd go to school and people say, why don't you go back home? So, I didn't belong in that camp. But when you're in space, you transcend all of that. You just see our planet. You don't see countries. You don't see barriers.

• 33:47Speaker 03

  You just see our glorious planet. That appealed.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Were you conscious of happiness and unhappiness as a child? Or you're just living through this?

• 33:56Speaker 03

  And there was unhappiness there because I missed my sisters. But I think sometimes maybe the retrospect scope needs finer tuning, because sometimes I gloss over the unhappiness. And that's one of the things, writing the memoir, suddenly there were emotions which have been buried for a long time. And they came to the fore and they overwhelmed me. For a while, it was quite terrifying.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Age 13 or 14, is that when you had your first crush?

• 34:23Speaker 03

  I suppose there were crushes. But nothing much came of them. And I had a very big fear of boys. Boys were more likely to call me names in the playground.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  How interesting.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  Yes, and so, boys sort of, I steered well clear of them.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  I mean, racist epithets? Or misogynist? A combination.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Sometimes-

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Charming, yes.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  Mix and match. You choose-

• 34:52Speaker 02

  Young men at their best, both racist and misogynist.

• 34:54Speaker 03

  Choose your slur.

• 34:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Daring me.

• 34:57Speaker 03

  And this wasn't for all boys. And also, from the age of, I suppose, about seven, when I went to my first boarding school, it was mainly, it was mainly girl's schools. And it's quite interesting, because girls do better at science in girl's schools than in mixed schools. So, I think that might be partly why I became a scientist or, yes, went in that direction. But yes.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Now, I asked about the crushes of this period only because all the domestic problems at your home, the moon is out there. But at least a beautiful boy or girl across the classroom you can focus on.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  But that wasn't the case with you.

• 35:33Speaker 03

  And also, I think partly, I heard a wonderful story about Ada Lovelace. So, Ada Lovelace was the first computer scientist. Yes, a wonderful woman.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  Famously, the daughter of somebody interesting.

• 35:45Speaker 03

  Lord Byron. And she was steered into logical pursuits by her mother because she wanted her to be very, very different from Lord Byron. And I think it was, might be the same with my father. He almost wanted to shut down anything, because I think my mother had run off with a vicar. I think he wanted to shut down anything like that. And that was, well, you know, that wasn't almost godly.

• 36:09Speaker 02

  So, your focus was entirely on your work? And your dream was out there in the great beyond?

• 36:14Speaker 03

  Yes, very much.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  And how does that turn into a reality?

• 36:17Speaker 03

  Oh, so, I think the reality started with going to this school, my 13th school. I make the decision that I want to be in the top stream because if I'm going to try and get into space, this is the opportunity. And so, I take that opportunity. And I didn't watch television for two years because I thought, this is my focus. And yeah, I do get hyperfixations. And education became my hyperfixation. And so, I'm-

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Rest assured, you are now my new hyperfixation.

• 36:45Speaker 03

  I am definitely weird.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Fascinating. Weird, but wonderful. Keep going.

• 36:51Speaker 03

  Thank you. And so, yes, and so, I focused on education, especially the sciences, because I knew it's science that got people into space. And also, as I was undiagnosed with dyslexia, but dyslexia gives me all sorts of skills. So, yes, reading and writing, especially when you first get to school, those are the things you find really hard as a dyslexic. I didn't know I was dyslexic. I just thought I was dumb. But as a dyslexic, I'm very logical. I'm really curious. And all these things make me a better scientist. So, going and sort of studying science, which would lead me to space, made a lot of sense. No logic of it at the time, but that's where I pursued.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Did you tell any of your teachers this was your ambition?

• 37:29Speaker 03

  I did mention to a teacher when I was much younger, when I was about seven years old, at one of the boarding schools, one day I want to go into space. I'd love to be a space scientist or something like that. I don't think I knew what a space scientist was, but yeah, I want to study space. And the teacher said, oh, Maggie, that's a lovely idea. But yeah, why don't you go into nursing? That's quite scientific. And the thing is, it can crush someone's dreams. But I'm stubborn. So, when someone says that to me, I think, oh, well, why can't I be a space scientist?

• 37:55Speaker 02

  And did you have a telescope on that stage or your own?

• 37:57Speaker 03

  So, telescope, when I was actually 14, 15, this is where I started to make my own telescope, and inspired by Sir Patrick Moore.

• 38:06Speaker 02

  Who was then presenting the sky at night and had done from the beginning.

• 38:09Speaker 03

  Yes, so he did it for 57 years. I'm not going to make that.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  I do see why not.

• 38:16Speaker 03

  The amazing advances in medical science will be needed. But so, things, I used to watch the sky at night and got permission to stay up and watch it because he would tell us the wonders of what was out there. And he'd also say, of course, with a telescope, you can see this. And I'm, oh, a telescope. I'd love to get a telescope. And I'm living in inner-city London. It's not the best place for a telescope. But I sort of bought one, and I think from Argos. They do much better ones now. It was a little plastic telescope. We were living in a council flat at the time. My father was losing his sight, I think, because of the pressures. And so, when-

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Because of the pressures or depression?

• 38:53Speaker 03

  Oh, no, well, the pressures of working-

• 38:56Speaker 02

  The pressures of life, of working all the hours.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  Yes, and keeping four kids in. And so, he started losing, he got glaucoma.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Gosh.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  And so, he's losing his sight. So, I sort of became the carer. So, it was my father, Gracie, and I living in this council flat. And so, we couldn't afford very much because we were living off his benefits. But yeah, I bought this telescope. And it had plastic lenses. And it just wasn't a very good telescope. But I was flicking through a magazine and I saw something that said, a telescope-making class. And I thought, oh, telescope-making class? You can make a telescope? And so, I went along to the class. And my recollection was coming into the class and looking around. And I thought the average age of everybody who's there, because everyone was white male, and I thought the average age was 50. This was from a 14-year-old perspective. I think they were probably in their early 30s. For me, they were all grandpa. So, I went in.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  And I found out recently that I had to get special permission to join this adult education class. Because it's an adult education class, and I was still in school and I was 14. And I was unaccompanied because my father couldn't join me because of his sight. I had to get special permission from the school and also from my father that I could join this telescope-making class. But I went and I sort of ground and polished my own telescope mirror.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  And then you looked up at the sky?

• 40:11Speaker 03

  It took a few years. But yes, so, I was, my father described himself as a self-certified lunatic, which I loved because the moon was his friend, especially when he was traveling across Nigeria. Because he was cycling across Nigeria, and the streets were unmettled and no streetlights. And so, when the moon was up, it was his friend. And so, and also, growing up in London, you don't see many stars, but you can see the moon.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  So, you have this first telescope. You're looking up at the stars.

• 40:37Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  You have this complicated family, but you're doing well at school?

• 40:42Speaker 03

  Right now, yes. And so, I went to my final school just before, just as we were starting GCSEs. So, I had the two years of GCSEs and I focused on nothing else. No TV, no fun, a bit of telescope-making aside, but it was education.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  And you get good A-levels?

• 40:58Speaker 03

  A-levels, yes. I got bougie and I got a bit sort of cocky. And I did four A-levels. So, I did physics, chemistry, biology, and maths, which is a bit of a mouthful. And I got a D in A-level physics. But physics was the subject I loved the most because physics is the study of everything in the universe, from the tiniest particles to the whole of the cosmos and everything in between. So I wanted to do physics. And so I applied to Imperial College and I got a D, but they let me in. I snuck in the back door. So my education was doing fine, but the dyslexia, I think, was playing its part. And so I was finding things hard. But because I didn't know I was dyslexic, I used to beat myself up. Everybody else can do it. You should be working harder. Obviously, you're not trying hard enough.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Were you, as a teenager, the delightful person you are now, but a teenager? Or were you a bit of an oddity?

• 41:49Speaker 03

  I think I was definitely an oddity. And looking at my background, so I was living at home. For the first two years of university, I was living at home.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  With dad still?

• 41:59Speaker 03

  With dad, yes, because he had lost his sight by then. So I was effectively the carer, but living at home. And I saw university as an opportunity. And I spent the first two years living at home, but by the third year, I decided if I don't, I'm going to continue being an oddity. And the oddity will continue into my later life if I don't get out into the world.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Did you have friends in a normal way?

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:25Speaker 02

  Did they think you were a bit strange?

• 42:27Speaker 03

  I just chose strange friends. It's not fellow nerds, I guess, people who were, I suppose, into education. And so we were like minded creatures. And I suppose, because still in a very strong religious environment at home, saying prayers every night, things like that. And so, yes. But yeah, my third year in university, I think I decided that it's time to grow up, really.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  Yes, because the manic energy that you have now, you have managed to make it a social asset. You are an enchantment, an adornment to the world.

• 43:07Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  And you are a public intellectual, and we all love that.

• 43:10Speaker 03

  Good grief.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  But I'm thinking that as a teenager, it's a much more intense thing.

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  There is this caring for your father, there's the guilt over your mother, there is absolute determination to fulfill this educational goal. Also, you've got these personal challenges. And so is there the laughter and the gaiety that we see now?

• 43:32Speaker 03

  Probably not. I remember, actually, when you say that, I remember my biology teacher, I think at A level, and I don't know what happened, but he said, even Maggie's, even Margaret, because they used to call me Margaret, it's called, even Margaret's laughing. I was like, what does that mean? So I think I was, I was, I suppose, focused, determined, probably very weird.

• 43:53Speaker 02

  And did you feel, when you looked up at the stars, an ease, at peace, this is my world?

• 44:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, actually, and even today, just you saying that, I can feel the calm coming over me. Because there is something, and yes, and yes, as you say, I have a manic energy, let's put it that way. But when I look up, it just calms me down. I say, I use the moon for mindfulness. Because when I look at the moon, it just, oh, yeah, that's, it's all okay.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  We had a conversation on Rosebud with the astronomer Royal.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  And it was clear that he was at his happiest alone, looking up.

• 44:31Speaker 03

  Yes, I can understand.

• 44:33Speaker 02

  That's when you found your peace.

• 44:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  But you were determined to keep going. When did you become, do you think, grown up? What made you become grown up? Was it when you were in Imperial College or later?

• 44:47Speaker 03

  So I think it started when I was at Imperial. And I was living at home for the first two years. And because that's the good old days where you got a full, because I'm living a council flat, you got a full grant and sort of living expenses on top. But because my father was in London and I went to Imperial, I had to stay at home for the first two years. But I decided the third year, and it started because I went on an interrailing trip.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, alone or with a friend?

• 45:10Speaker 03

  With a friend. Oh, a lovely friend, Gideon.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  A boyfriend?

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  A male friend?

• 45:14Speaker 03

  A male friend.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  No, but I meant a boy who was a friend.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Gideon, I've kept his book in my side drawer for years.

• 45:21Speaker 03

  Oh, yes. Oh, no, it's me in my Gideon Bible.

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 45:26Speaker 03

  I love that idea. But yes, Gideon was a friend, he was my lab partner. And the thing is, I didn't know, and I still don't, but how to approach boys or interact with boys. But Gideon was my lab partner, and he was a lovely, lovely chap. Sorry. We came up with this crazy idea, we wanted to see the world. We came up with this crazy idea that we would set up an adventure, where we'd go to the Amazon and would do sort of experiments, because and we could get funding for that. And so we started putting a group together, and we realised that we were the least qualified people to go to the Amazon. Because we're physicists, biology students go to the Amazon. And so we slowly got, surely moved out of our own expectation. So as a downside, we went interrailing. And we sort of travelled through Europe together and sort of lived off biscuits.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Is Gideon still a friend of yours?

• 46:11Speaker 03

  No, because I'm not very good at that.

• 46:13Speaker 02

  Interesting, because he clearly was a really good chap.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  He really is. I'm sure he still is.

• 46:18Speaker 02

  I'm sure he still is. But he was your proper partner.

• 46:21Speaker 03

  He was.

• 46:21Speaker 02

  He enjoyed working with you, and he enjoyed travelling with you, and you shared interests.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  Yes, even though my weirdities, yes.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  Yes, and he coped with your weirdities. There was never any complication?

• 46:30Speaker 03

  No.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  No, he never put a hand on your knee. No.

• 46:33Speaker 03

  Actually, well, no, we did go out for a while.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  Oh. So briefly, the Bunsen burner that was Gideon, dropped into life. What happened? You went out, but you didn't stay in, did you?

• 46:46Speaker 03

  So we went interrailing together as good friends. And there was some challenge, I jumped off a moving train.

• 46:53Speaker 02

  For what reason?

• 46:55Speaker 03

  So we were interrailing, and it's lovely, but we were definitely a deck class, the lower the low. And I was on a moving train coming back from Spain, heading home, actually. And I was disappointed because I'd loved being, the freedom of being out there. And we're heading home, and I managed to tuck my passport in between two seats. And then I thought, I'll go and just nip to the loo. So I just had my money belt around my waist, went down to the loo. And this train was coming from Spain, and I went to the first loo. I mean, you couldn't breathe, so I shut the door, then moved further down the train. And then I realised that for some reason, I'd gone too far down. And I thought, what I'll do is I'll just nip off the train at the next station, run up the platform, hop back on, dish bash posh. But so as the train slowed down, I thought, I was surrounded by

• 47:40Speaker 03

  a few people who were looking at my money belt a little suspiciously. So I thought, I'll just leap off now. Train was moving faster than I realised. So I leapt off, sort of rolled a bit, cloud of dust, picked myself up and saw the train disappear. Didn't stop. And you know, that moment of no, this is, no, my dad's gonna kill me. That was the main thought. So anyway, the train went off. I had a number of adventures, but was able to eventually to join him in Paris. But all this time, we weren't actually going out. And it wasn't until when I got back from that, the independence just felt wonderful. And so I decided I was going to move out of home. And, sorry, it's still quite emotional. That estranged me from my father. He didn't.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  Oh, you were abandoning him now?

• 48:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Having let your mother down by now.

• 48:31Speaker 03

  Just to do the hat trick.

• 48:33Speaker 02

  If I may say so, your poor blind papa. I'm sorry, the carer. He is the hero of our story. He's given you everything. He's given you your focus, your love of learning. He's explained to you what thinking is all about. And now you're not just looking at the stars, you're reaching out for the stars and saying, well, sorry, Dad.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm off. But the thing is, I was living in London.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Of course. And by then, you're nearly 20, aren't you?

• 48:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. It's time to grow up. You had to leave him. Don't feel bad about it. You had to leave him. And then you moved into the arms of Gideon, did you?

• 49:07Speaker 03

  Well, yes, I happened to move into a flat, which was, because I didn't know anyone, really. So I happened to move in a flat where Gideon was living, sort of below. And so I moved in there, and then we became a couple.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  So how long did Gideon last?

• 49:21Speaker 03

  So probably about two years.

• 49:22Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a problem.

• 49:23Speaker 03

  It was, yes. But the problem is, so we finished our degrees, but then he did his PhD up in Leeds. And I was still in London, because I stayed for my degree and PhD at Imperial. So I was at Imperial seven years. And so he went up to Leeds. And so it was a long distance relationship. And fundamentally, when I left my father's house, I was so lonely. Because I lived, he was my linchpin. And not only was he not happy that I left, he sort of, you know, don't darken my doorstep again, very sort of Nigerian sort of drama. And so I was living in London, effectively on my own, and was very lonely.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  How long after were you and your father reconciled? How long did that take for you to get together with him again?

• 50:06Speaker 03

  Probably two or three years of total disengagement. And then slowly but surely, although, you see, the problem was, it was never, never quite the same.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Already, even to the end? Even to when he died?

• 50:20Speaker 03

  Yes. Well, I suppose he was such an important person in my life. And the fact that I could be told, don't darken my doorstep again, it put up barriers. And so, of course, he was my lovely, wonderful father, although his health was degrading, and maybe his mind, he was getting very paranoid about things. And so he was finding life hard as well.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, he was the most important person in your life from sitting here.

• 50:47Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 50:48Speaker 02

  And of course. His challenge, that's why he had the problems with your mother. He was a very much, you know, it's either there or there.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  My way or the highway.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  Yes. And I'd seen that with my two elder sisters because slowly but surely they got estranged for him because and he would, and it's funny because you see it happening and you think, oh, well, Sue must have done something wrong or Hal must have done something wrong. But when it happens to you, you think, oh, oh, okay. And it makes you think of these things in a different light.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Well, really, this conversation is about what made you the person you are. And we're discovering that beautifully. We can't really touch on your career, but just give us a couple of tastes of it. What got you into, you went to work in Chile?

• 51:27Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  That was exciting. That's the sort of step that takes you from academia in Britain to being, just in a nutshell, give me that.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  When I left university, I wanted, I, space and astronomy was where it's at, space science especially. But my first job, I didn't even apply to space jobs because I had no experience. And so I was working for the M A D in various other things. But then I got an opportunity to work on a project at U C L, so in London, but it was building an instrument for a big telescope in Chile. And Patrick helped. So Patrick Moore, because I'd made my-

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Patrick Moore, you made in touch with him by then?

• 52:00Speaker 03

  Oh, no, no, I'd never met him. But the fact that I'd made my own telescope, this, oh, okay, you did that when you were 14. So it was, it was a good link to get into astronomy and space because, you know, I was that way inclined. And so I got the opportunity to make an instrument that went on a telescope in Chile, managing a team of about 17 people, all working together to make this instrument. And then I got to ship it out to Chile and work on one of the largest telescopes in the world, which was glorious.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  And how then did you find yourself in doing Sky at Night?

• 52:28Speaker 03

  So I appeared on the Sky at Night a few times, but I'd never met Patrick. Chris Lindt, my co presenter on Sky at Night, lovely chap, met him a number of times, but never met Patrick. And then when Patrick Moore passed away, there was talk at the BBC of getting rid of the Sky at Night. And I was told that they never had as many letters of complaints, you can't get rid of our Sky at Night, which was wonderful. And I put my name forward. I said, I'm working in science communication. By this time, I'd done some children's television. I was working in science communication, done a little TV, mainly news programmes. And so I thought this might be a wonderful opportunity. I love the Sky at Night. So it would be, be a true honour to, if it was going to continue,

• 53:10Speaker 03

  I'd love to be part of it. And I heard nothing. So I thought, okay, you know, some crazy dreams. My father always said, always used to say, this or something better will come along. And I didn't hear anything. And then one day I was filming for the children's programme I did, and they phoned down and said, would you still be interested? Do right. But it was terrifying at the same time, because he was so iconic. And you're sort of, you're Patrick Moore, and then hello, it's me.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  I used to think he was eccentric, but now I've met you.

• 53:37Speaker 03

  Ah, yes, a chip off the old block.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  You look up at the heavens. You see amazing things up there. Is it all science for you? Or is there romance and magic and dreams? Are there people out there?

• 53:50Speaker 03

  Oh, so it's definitely romance and magic and dreams. And I think the science just augments that. Because I see it and it looks beautiful and it makes my heart sing to see it. But then I can understand what's behind it. And that's what I love to share with people. Look at it. It's amazing. This is glorious. We are part of this. And let me explain, you know, some of the things that are happening. We know so little, but I can explain some of it. So yes, the magic is definitely there. And it just makes my heart sing to see it.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  Is there a potential of life?

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  As possibly we might know it?

• 54:23Speaker 03

  Yes. And to me, I love the history of astronomy. And so there is a study called archaeo astronomy. And it's looking at the different cultures of the world. And everybody has looked up at the night sky and wondered. And, but we have a lot of hubris. We thought, we're the centre of the universe, you know, oh, no, the sun is, oh, no, our sun is one of 300 billion stars in our galaxy. And to me, it's a numbers game. I think most space scientists will say, yes, there is definitely life out there. Because our local star is the sun, eight planets going around the sun. The stars we see in the night sky have planets going around them too. And we're able to detect them using sort of wily methods. And but now, that's just our galaxy in the Milky Way, 300 billion stars. In the whole of the

• 55:04Speaker 03

  universe, the Hubble Space Telescope taught us, there are, you know, maybe two, three, 400 billion galaxies. Why would life just occur here? Again, it's human hubris. We're the centre of everything. So I definitely think there's life out there. But the distances in space are vast. And so going from one star to a next door neighbour star, our next door neighbour star is Proxima Centauri, 40 trillion kilometres away. Using current technology will take 76,000 years to get there. But I don't care, I'm going.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  When did you become a normal person? No, because this-

• 55:36Speaker 03

  I'm working on it.

• 55:37Speaker 02

  No, this unusual childhood, this focus on your work, this achievement, all of that I can see, the different challenges with your two parents. But you're clearly a very normal person. Is your husband part and parcel of that? When did you meet him? And how did you meet him?

• 55:50Speaker 03

  Oh, so I met him at university. So both studying for our PhDs.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  What's he called?

• 55:56Speaker 03

  Martin. We recently broke up, unfortunately.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Oh, that's still part of the story.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  We've been married, we were married 23 years.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Well, that's all bad.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  But yes.

• 56:06Speaker 02

  That's very good going. And you've got a beautiful daughter?

• 56:09Speaker 03

  Oh, she's the light of my life. Yes.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  What did you get from your husband, though?

• 56:13Speaker 03

  Stability, I think. Because, yes, tumultuous childhood. And it's funny because I, I, I sort of pushed, I'm revisiting that now. I pushed it all to one side. I didn't talk about my childhood. I didn't talk about any of that. Nobody who knew me or was a friend of mine, sort of from university onwards, knew anything about this. And I don't know if I was embarrassed by it. I don't think so. It just, it was just a part of me that was in the past. And that's why it's been interesting revisiting it. But, yes, but I suppose to me-

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Are you quite enjoying being on your own again? Are you on your own now?

• 56:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, with Laurie, with my daughter.

• 56:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:50Speaker 03

  But yes, I think there's an independence again.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Which you're liking.

• 56:56Speaker 03

  I am.

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• 57:37Speaker 01

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• 58:18Speaker 01

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• 58:35Speaker 04

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• 59:11Speaker 02

  But you did also, for those 23 years, you liked the stability of a normal family life.

• 59:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  That you never had as a girl.

• 59:20Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  And suddenly, with this good man.

• 59:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  Father of your daughter, you had some very good years.

• 59:26Speaker 03

  We did. And some enjoyable years and some travel and adventure. But it's again, people sort of sometimes grow gradually. I think I grow in leaps. And I think also, I think one of the things you asked me earlier about the influence of my tumultuous childhood, I think I adapt to other people, what they need. So my father, sort of friends, other people. And I think one of the reasons my friendships are transitory is because I can't maintain that. That's not me. But I, because I'm used to trying to fit in, I'm a chameleon. But sometimes I don't know my true colours, if you see what I mean. And I can do it

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  for a while, and I can be the person they almost need me to be. But when I, it's like a rubber band snapping.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  What is the true you? If we were, we were meeting for the first time, and I said, who are you, Maggie? Just in a nutshell, in a sentence or two, describe yourself to me.

• 1:00:29Speaker 03

  So there's the facade Maggie, which is the comic and I'm always having a laugh and I just want things to be jolly and happy. I want everybody to be happy. Also, I think I like everybody to like me. So I adapt for that. But the inner Maggie, I think is more thoughtful, probably quieter, a little less manic, but, but I suppose head in the clouds, a dreamer, a dreamer who believes in magic, which is odd for a scientist.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  But you also like the company of intellectual people. You want to be with clever people.

• 1:01:05Speaker 03

  Oh, I like stimulating. Actually, I like being with people, but i- i- in a confined, I love, this has been brilliant for me, speaking to you, thinking, it just fires up all the neurons. I love that. And so I like that. But I always feel that after a while, people will get bored of the real Maggie. And so, or bored of the facade Maggie as well.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  And so it's lovely. And we have this moment and then I move on.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  Well, one of the things that's exciting about me meeting you is you're the first, since I met Barbie and Ken, the people, actually knew I have met the original Barbie and Ken.

• 1:01:43Speaker 03

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  You are the first Barbie I have met since meeting the original Barbie. Because there is a Barbie doll of you, isn't there Maggie?

• 1:01:51Speaker 03

  There is.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  A scientist.

• 1:01:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  When did that happen? It's rather lovely.

• 1:01:55Speaker 03

  It was. Actually, it was very timely because it was 2023, the year of the Barbie movie. And but every year, Mattel, the people who make the Barbie doll, will choose six women from around the world who they see as role models and make them into Barbie dolls. And it's funny because role model is a bit of a double edged sword for me because I know what I'm like. I'm often late for things. I'm incredibly untidy. So in my mind, I feel I can't be a role model. But now I'm realising that actually being untidy and going into a school with jam down my front, it makes me more accessible. They think, oh, if she can do it, then maybe so can I. And so, and so they made, they made a Barbie doll of me. And I must, I was a bit terrified because my daughter took photographs of me, we sent

• 1:02:39Speaker 03

  them out to Mattel in California, and they made the doll. And then they were going to do the big reveal. Show me my Barbie. And I think, and there were cameras and things like that. I was like, what if I don't like it? No, what if it doesn't look like me? I was quite apprehensive about it. But they whipped the blanket off. And there was my Barbie doll. And I thought, it does not like me, but it looks like me on a really good day.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 1:02:59Speaker 03

  Exactly. And I think that's how a Barbie doll should look.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  I feel I've caught you on a really good day. I think you're brilliant. People who haven't read your childhood memories, that's what it's called, isn't it? Childhood memories?

• 1:03:10Speaker 03

  A star child.

• 1:03:11Speaker 02

  Star child, it's called. Star child.

• 1:03:14Speaker 03

  That was Albert.

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  That's, yes, we have a publisher in common as well. I mean, we are virtually related.

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  We are.

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. All right, we're getting to the end now. A moment of joy from those earlier years. A moment of joy, sheer joy.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  Yes. Looking back, my sister Gracie, we used to have fun because we used to do plays. And she'd be Princess Gracie, and I'd be everybody else. And so I just loved doing the different characters. And so we just had made up adventures. Because we're often sitting in the back of a car, or, you know, we were stuck in a flat in London, where five of us were living in a bedsit. But we'd make up adventures, which would take us away from things. And so I loved that. And I miss it to a certain extent.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  And a moment of sadness.

• 1:04:03Speaker 03

  Ah, when my father passed away, he, he, he, he didn't have any plans. He didn't have any money. And so I went into project manager mode. And I had to work out that Gracie could stay in the flat, in the cancer flat they were in. I had to work out the funeral. Because my father was a little estranged with my sisters, I felt that I should take this on. So I took it all on and found a burial site and things like that. And I did all of that. And then, and then Gracie got ill and was having some challenges. So she went to hospital. So I was tackling that as well. But then about a year later, I remember waking

• 1:04:42Speaker 03

  up one morning and howling, I mean, gut wrenching howls at the loss of my father. Because while I was focused on project management mode and, yes, okay, Gracie, your flat, I've got to go. It was lovely. Because it's not like looking after Gracie, it's a distraction from the reality. But then when I realised, I just howled for, I don't know, a day at the loss of my father, because he, as I say, was my linchpin, he, he gave me the aspiration to think big and think crazy. And he was gone. And I, and towards the end of his life, I don't think he was very happy. And I wish I'd done more to make him happy in that period.

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  So I think there was partly lost that way. But yes, and I hadn't realised how built up it was. But there was that release.

• 1:05:32Speaker 02

  Professionally, you can be very proud of your achievements, in terms of the public engagement, and particularly with the young people.

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Introducing them to science and space, and particularly young women, which is fantastic. Personally, what is your proudest moment?

• 1:05:48Speaker 03

  Ah, see, it's hard for a moment. The thing I'm proudest of in my life is my daughter. And it sounds a bit cliched, but I find her amazing. And this is my life. I do, I hyper-focus on, on people. And she, she brings a smile to my face. And what I've loved, I'm sorry, it's not a moment at all, but it's her life. Because at each stage, she's been different. She evolves. My prime example is when she had her 13th birthday to celebrate, she was really into Hello Kitty. She has hyper fixations too. And so we went down to the Hello Kitty cafe in Brighton. And, you know, she had little cakes and we

• 1:06:32Speaker 03

  had a lovely time. By her 14th birthday, she was into South Park. And this is where everybody swears and things like that. So this shift of perspective. But I loved that journey. And with that journey, I'm sort of, I follow her. So, yes, South Park, I don't like South Park. Oh, actually, it's quite interesting. And so she gives me a different perspective on my life, a similar way to my, to what my father did. So, yes.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  One of the things I've learned from our conversation is that the things that you talk about, like ADHD, dyslexia, hyper, what do you call it?

• 1:07:04Speaker 03

  Hyper fixations.

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Are things that may be challenges, but also have been part of your success.

• 1:07:10Speaker 03

  Very much so. And, and it's funny because I didn't, I, I often think I'm weird. I call them Maggie-isms. Because, you know, so other people don't do this, but I do. But I think you can use them to your advantage. And they don't have to be negative. And there is negatives with the ADHD and the dyslexia. But I don't think they have to be the end of the story. So many positive things. And what I've learnt is to know myself. There are some things that I'm good at, there are some things I am foul out. But then work out that and get support in those, or work in teams where someone else is really good at that. And it's taken me nearly 60 years to get here. But now I'm realising that, yes, work your strengths and know your weaknesses, and then thrive.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  We see your strengths in front of us. So the last question is quite simply this. What have you learnt? What has life taught you, this extraordinary life that you've achieved?

• 1:08:04Speaker 03

  I think that one of the things we do in our lives is we self-limit. We have big crazy dreams, think, oh, no, I can't do that. I say, blow that. I am literally reaching for the stars, metaphorically, but physically as well. And the stars are like a star 40, 40 trillion kilometres away. I still want to get there. It's crazy. I don't know how I'm going to do it. But I have that dream. And by having that dream, I may never get there. It's a retirement plan. I may never get there. But just by having the dream has enabled me to do things I would have never thought possible. So I say, think big and think crazy.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  I think you may well get there. But meanwhile, I'm so glad you've stopped off here for a while. You're absolutely brilliant. Dame Maggie Aderin, thank you for joining us on Rosebud.

• 1:08:49Speaker 03

  Thank you so much.

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  Well, I found that completely fascinating. My thanks to Dame Maggie. It's wonderful to have a scientist on Rosebud. We don't have enough. I do remember we had the Astronomer Royal a year or so ago. But we need more scientists on Rosebud. I think the problem is, it's not something I know a great deal about, but I love to meet a brilliant scientist like Dame Maggie, because I learn a great deal. And it makes you look at life in a different way. So if there are scientists you feel we should be inviting to be guests on Rosebud, do get in touch. You know where we are. It's quite simply [email protected].

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  That's where you will find us. And that's where people send us emails. In fact, Harriet Jane, our producer, has found this email that she wants me to share with you. It's from Carrie Lawrenson, who is one of our listeners, I think it's fair to say, of riper years now. And I'm going to read the email, though it seems a bit unseasonal, because we're still, as far as I'm concerned, in summer. But this is a recollection of Christmases, Christmases past. Carrie writes, "Most of our Christmases when I was a child were spent with my grandparents in Colchester. There were cousins, aunts and uncles. So it was

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  always a jolly affair. One of my aunts, Auntie Peggy, was very religious. Although even as a child, we knew it was because she had a thing for George, the unmarried vicar. Every now and then, George would come to tea with his thick lensed spectacles and food spattered jacket. We would hide behind the curtains, listening for something outrageous without knowing what it would be. I was about 10 and my sister was seven, so it was 1952. Aunt Peggy's main preoccupation in life was to do good deeds. She tendersly knit socks for children who had no socks, bring pregnant young women to the house, a blind man injured

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  in the First World War who sold matches, brought to the house for a good meal. And once, a couple of giggling young boys, she'd found teasing another war veteran whose twisted leg left him with a visibly debilitating walk. Well, this Christmas, Aunt Peggy brought home two young women, explaining they'd come to Colchester, a garrison town, to meet friends who hadn't turned up. They were now lost with nowhere to go. I was completely entranced by them. I'd never seen such exotic women with their bright red lipstick, very blonde

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  hair, semi-transparent blouse on one, much shorter skirts than I'd ever seen, plus tottery high heels. This was 1951, 1952."

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  All was well until they were taken into the drawing room, where my father, grandfather, and two uncles were sitting. Like a tableau vivant, the whole scene remained with me for years. Total silence, narrow-eyed men mesmerized by wide-eyed women. My grandfather, rising slowly from his chair, and without a word being said, the women whipped round and scattered out. Probably a little exaggerated over the years, but the essentials of the story are all correct. Words I didn't understand. I pestered the adults. What is a Protestant?

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  Exasperated, someone eventually said, oh, for goodness sake, they were ladies of the night. That's a wonderful story. Oh, what is a Protestant? I love it. That is a wonderful story, Carrie. Thank you for sharing it with us. Completely charming. And Harriet, the producer, was right. We couldn't wait till Christmas to hear that one. Well, if you want to write to us, you know the address. Do keep in touch. We love hearing from you. And there will be people who would like to get behind the scenes and become a little bit closer to the team. Well, we have the Rosebud family, and you can join that. It costs, I think, you know, the price of a cup of coffee a month to join the Rosebud Club.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  All you do is go to patreon.com forward slash Rosebud. And there's a welcome page that tells you what to do. And we have a kind of special Sunday supplement. Every Sunday afternoon, it drops. It takes you behind the scenes. It, well, gives you extra episodes where we go down memory lane and we reveal some of our family's secrets. That's for members of the Rosebud family. Do feel free to join. So that's it for this episode of Rosebud. There'll be another one next Friday. Next Tuesday, what will it be? Well, it could be me and Harriet meeting somebody interesting, or it could be me and Harriet dipping into my diaries. Whatever it is, we very much hope you will join us.

• 1:13:59Speaker 02

  My thanks again to Dame Maggie, to my producer, Harriet Jane, to Alec Cadell, who edits these for YouTube, and most of all, to you for listening. It's wonderful to have the Rosebud family there. Thanks for being with us. Cue the music.

• 1:15:01Speaker 02

  Rosebud is a Plain Jane production, produced by Harriet Jane, hosted by me, Gyles Brandreth, with music by Phil Leopard, and recorded this week at the JW Marriott Grosvenor House in London's Park Lane. Room service.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Hi, everyone. It's Katie Couric. And on my podcast, Next Question, we love stories about how women are taking control of their lives. They are increasingly leading financial decisions in their households. Yet, many say they don't feel fully prepared for the long-term financial choices ahead. Real confidence comes from knowing your financial future is protected, whatever happens. Pacific Life has helped generations protect what matters today and prepare for tomorrow with life insurance and lifetime income solutions. It's a promise Pacific Life has kept for nearly 160 years, so its customers can keep theirs.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

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